After The Amen

After The Amen - Ep. 38: "Salvation By Faith"

• Jordan • Season 1 • Episode 38

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Welcome to “After The Amen” 🙏 
The goal of this podcast is to revisit the message from the previous Sunday in order to unpack the passage even further, ask key questions, and discover how faith can practically move from Sunday morning into every day of the week.


Linked Sunday - Jul 19, 2026

SPEAKER_01

Well, hey everyone. Thank you so much for jumping in with us. I'm Jordan, the worship pastor here. This is Pastor Eric and our group's pastor, What What. We're on week six or seven. We're totally not sure. But this is after the Amen. Thank you guys for jumping in with us. We're so glad you're here. We're gonna get things started. All right. Let's do it. You ready for it? I am. Our iceberg question that we wanted to get after is I like Monopoly, but what is the best board game?

SPEAKER_00

Go for it. The best board game. You want to know what's really strange? I had never heard of Settlers of Catan until I became a Christian and like started going to like, you know, people's houses, gatherings. Everybody played Catan. And like I'm still unfamiliar with it. We played it on our retreat, or I watched you guys play it on the retreat. Um, so which one is the best? I don't know. I I personally like Scrabble for a couple of different reasons. Um kind of a nerd, so like I like I like vocabulary stuff, but also I like it because you can be kind of tactical and menacing in it. So like I'll wait for somebody to play a move like temper, and then I'll just build temperature off of it or something or something like that. Temperament, yeah, yeah. Yeah, or block somebody or throw an S at the end of a huge word that they spelled. So I like it.

SPEAKER_01

And you mentioned Amelia, your your wife, Krista, she's good at it. Yes, and it's just like, dude, I I I'm not built that way. Like, I gotta look up words. I mean, I'm like Googling underneath my underneath the table because I'm like, I gotta make up words, right? She's good at it though, right?

SPEAKER_00

She is, yeah, she's good at it. We played last night actually and beat her by one point, literally one point. Closest game we ever had. One point. Don't you normally not beat her though? No. Dude, let's go.

SPEAKER_01

Uh on the podcast, out in public. Yep. Everybody wants to know Eric Beat. Krista. Krista is listening right now. She's okay. So, dude, super excited uh that we get to do this together. This might feel a little different than normal. So uh, Joe, normally, you know, we'll normally have a little bit where someone's asking the questions. Joe kind of tees them up right a little bit. So today's more conversational. We're gonna be diving in a little bit like back and forth to where um we're gonna Eric's gonna ask questions, but also like you're gonna ask him, and then we're probably gonna actually hear you answer some of them also on top of what we got. So just a little bit different format so that you're not wondering what Eric's doing answering some of the questions. He's doing it because we're in this together and having a conversation together. So it's good.

SPEAKER_00

All right, let's shoot, let's go for it. All right, yeah, we're gonna hop right in. So the the uh scripture that you focused on this week, it was Ephesians 2, 8 through 9. Um, but we actually have some questions from the congregation that we'll start out with. So we had three that came in this week. Love it. Uh so yeah, we'll hop into the first one. The first question that was asked is why is it so common for some churches to focus on good works over salvation and having a relationship with Jesus?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, number one, first of all, love that our church has many questions. This is so cool. Yeah. Um we are uh only a certain amount of capacity understanding of all the answers. So we're just gonna answer these best that we feel like is best, but we would love to have dialogue post uh podcast. If you feel like you want to contact us, let us know. We would love to get um in those conversations. But for us, dude, um when I think of this question, I think it's easier to focus on good works over salvation because it's measurable. We talk about like uh, you know, if I look at and I I I'm told that I'm tasked to do a good work, I can spend my week focusing and really diving into that. Like if I'm supposed to be nice and walk a bunch of old ladies across the street, or if I'm supposed to, you know, read and prevent my Bible X amount of time, I can come back and go, oh dude, I did that, and that's great, right? Salvation is a process. It's a yes, there is a belief and receiving of grace that happens, but the the the sanctification part of it is a process that a lot of it's just not seen, right? You're you're you're you're practicing good works, you're doing good works, but um, because of the grace that is seen. So I would say, yeah, that's my simple thought is just that it's it's measurable. It's easy for churches to measure them, to see them. So then why not focus on that? I I I don't think it's right, right? But at the same time, um, that's probably why they lend it tend to go that way in that direction.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I would agree with that. I I think that we see two truths in scripture. Um, the Bible teaches us grace and it also teaches us obedience and the obedience to come to church on Sunday or to, you know, give to the church or to serve people, um, those are things that we can, like you said, measure. And if we can see those, it's easier. It's har it's harder to see the the relationship that's taking place in our hearts. And so I think for some people it it is just more it's more comfortable. I think um it's just it's easier to move in that direction. I think we have a tendency to move in the direction of works. Yeah. It's I think it's why we have this conversation so often within the context of the church. Uh so yeah, but salvation points us back to cr to what Christ has already done, right? It's not about what we've done.

SPEAKER_01

Well, which is why I like I had that one section, a little tangent for a second on that was just that um often every and I should say often, everything outside of God's grace is attached to work. Like if I am going to do my job, I'm punching in and I'm punching out, and I get $100 a day or I get whatever X amount of money per day, right? Um if I go play a sport, I'm putting in weights and I'm lifting up, I'm running, I'm doing the things I'm doing because there's a get, there's a trophy at the end that I'm gonna get. There's this is not the case with God's grace, right? You you get an internal inheritance, but it's something that's not seen. So I think naturally to bend towards good works is is truly our natural bend. We have to choose to give up control in order for that to happen, which is again why churches will focus on good works.

SPEAKER_00

We we have this tendency to want to contribute. We want to contribute, and that's the interesting which is a great thing. Yeah, I mean, even your even your text today, you know, it's by grace that you've been saved. Well, or it's by faith, yeah, it's by grace that you've been saved through faith, but Paul tells us why. Well, why is it that God has chosen to do it that way? Well, so that nobody can boast. I can't boast in my works. God takes that option off the table. It's it's no longer an option for us. Yeah. So yeah, good, good stuff. All right, number two, uh, the next question that came in is do you think that it can be harder for someone who didn't grow up with a loving or supportive dad to accept God's love and grace? And would you have any advice to give somebody struggling with that?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I've spoken on this before. Uh, this is a tough one, dude. Um you know, I just sat with someone this morning, uh a girl who she had her her dad just passed away a year ago. Like she's like just this past Saturday was the one year anniversary. Um and that was hard. She was asking, how in the world do I work through this? Because she can't have a sense of restoration with her dad, and her dad didn't didn't treat her very well. Like just flat out didn't treat her well. Um, my situation, I've preached about this before, right? I've I've shared my testimony about this before. My dad is physically present on this earth, but actually being a loving dad, um, you know, reshaping my expectations and my thoughts on what it looks like to be a godly dad. Um, my dad's here, but he's like almost non-existent in a way. So which is worse, you can't can't really say either's worse or one's better. What so my advice to the person who might say, My dad's abusive, or he walked out of our lives early on, or uh, my dad's passed away, or um, I don't know, what whatever the circumstance is when it comes to the dad, it might be tough. Yes, that might be tough, and it's a process to think and put your full identity in the fact that you have a heavenly father who cares for you, who's lavished loved on you, right? Doesn't mean that you won't, it won't be tough for an earthly father that for that to be like um the outcome and that for that to be the process to go, man, I actually am gonna forgive him and walk in it. That doesn't mean it's not gonna be hard. So much easier said than done. It took me, I feel like, years to have counseling and good friendships and to go, hey, like, and talk to my wife about it like in depth and very in uh very very a lot of depth, right? Talking through a lot of the the things and motivations I'm having um to even get to the place that I feel like I am even now, and I still dude, I still struggle with it. My dad does not pick up the phone and call, and it drives me nuts. Yeah, but at the same time, that's not where my identity is. And so this the advice is simply go to Christ daily, ask him to be your heavenly father, and it might be that God uh also ask him to put people in your life who might play that role of an earthly father that you don't have. Um, I remember plenty of times in my ministry career where I've had people around my dad's age like be that role that is like insanely cool the way God uses that. I naturally still long for my dad and I took it. Of course, but of course it that's the that's the deal is go to your heavenly father, but also see if God would give you somebody who can help support that earthly role at the same time.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, no, that's good. Yeah, and and I think I would I would like yeah, I would agree with all of that. Um to the question, you know, do you think it can be harder for someone who didn't grow up with loving or supportive dad? Yeah, I would say, yeah, one 100%. Because our understanding of father is based on the experience that we that we have with our earthly father. Yeah, so if somebody's had an abusive dad or a dad that's just absent or unreliable, it can it can challenge how we view God. But I think the the thing that I would suggest um as far as like giving encouragement to somebody that's struggling with this, I would just say I would let God define his own character. Like don't don't let earthly fathers determine whether or not God is a good father or not. Because the truth of the matter is your your earthly father shouldn't determine how God is, it should be the opposite way around. Your your earthly father should be determined by God. He should be seeking to follow the Lord, and if he did that the way, you know, that we should, um, it would be a different kind of love that would point back to God. But obviously, everybody has their struggles, every person is fallen. And so um to have grace towards one another, to understand that we all have shortcomings, yeah, but not to not to use um you know somebody's misdeeds as a way to define God, who we call Father. He's the perfect example of what it means to be a good and loving father, a father that loves us unconditionally, that um is not willing to ever abandon us or forsake us. He's, you know, sometimes you wish your dad would pick up the phone and call. The the Lord is always calling us, you know, he's always calling us uh into deeper relationship with himself. So I also think that healing it it can come gradually. I think to the person that asked this question, I really think that you can grow in that love and that trust in God as you continue to see his faithfulness in your life. Yeah. And so scripture is gonna call you. We're gonna talk about some of these works and some of the things the Lord calls us to, but that obedience, and and Joe and I talked about this in the other podcast, the obedience is is to our benefit. Our obedience isn't benefiting God, it's it's benefiting us because God wants what's good for us. Just like if your father told you, you know, Jordan, I don't want you playing out in the road after nine o'clock because it's dark and you could get hit by a car. He's calling you to be obedient to what he's commanding for you, but he's doing it because he loves you and he cares about you and he wants to keep you safe. And so it's to our benefit. But yeah, yeah, that's a great question.

SPEAKER_01

Great thought, yeah. And it I don't know if there's a maturity, like we I don't know there's a the place of of a rival of maturity level here. Like I'm a dad of a 10-year-old boy who he'll ask me some stuff that I'm like, man, obviously I haven't been the greatest dad, right? So like um I'm learning, I'm growing, even through trying to practice that. So I think it's just give yourself some grace, allow God to actually lavish love on you, yeah, and walk in that. And and it's gonna be tough, but doesn't mean it's gonna it has to be that way forever. You're growing it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. All right, uh, next, uh, how do you balance salvation by grace alone through faith, like we see in Ephesians 2, 8 through 9, with what James writes? Uh so we have James 2.17, faith without works is dead. James 2, 18, show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. Um, and then James 2, 19, which says even the demons believe. So, what are your thoughts on that? How do you balance that salvation by grace alone through faith?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so where do works play into part of our salvation? I mean, so there's so this is where we couldn't dive into. We said we're gonna go into the weeds on some of this. We're diving in the weeds. This is officially Jordan can drop a little like weed thing if he wants. That sounds weird. Weeds are flashing weeds are never. Uh but uh yeah, like I think the big thing here is that you know, you can go to the even the demons believe, right? Um there's a sign of of repentance that's actually happened. So our justification is what happens when we receive, when we believe and receive the gospel, yes, by grace, through faith, I am saved. Yes. So that is the salvation part portion. That's right. Now there's the what? Sanctification side of it, which is the overflow of the cup. When we poured it, right? We poured in the cup. Uh, we um we recognize that when it's overflowing, now we have access to these works, we have access to this internal inheritance, we have access to um living this out, right? And the fruit fruits of the spirit get to live get lived out in us. And so, yeah, the the active part of this is that because I've been transformed by the power of the gospel, it is then not that I have to live out and pray. This is a really important part. Yeah, I don't have to, generally don't have to, but I actually have been changed from the inside out, right? Everything in me is gonna want and desire to change that. So if there's not, if there's not like that want and desire there, yeah, maybe we're practicing too much religiousness here, right? Um, but because I have been transformed by the gospel, this is a slow process, right? And sanctification is a long process. Um, because I just truly believe if God gave you all of those things right away, we would be like, I'm tapping out, I'm tapping out on that. I can't do it. But like um slowly, by uh day by day, he he chooses to sanctify us and trust and allow us to trust him. Um, even the demons believe. Let's go to that for a second. Yeah, yes. Satan himself, I mentioned this before. Satan himself, if you asked him, would you want to serve coffee on a Sunday morning? He'd go, Yeah. He probably would. I guarantee guarantee, right? Just a conversation with the devil. Would you want to be the usher and greeter up at the door? Yeah. Would you want to play keys on the worship team? Yeah. Would you want to submit your lordship to the Heavenly Father because it because Jesus is is is your Lord? That's where he would say no. And we would say yes. So believing by faith, now I produce and producing works because my belief has gone from believe and receive, not just a belief. And I know we talked about this, so talk to me a little bit about the two belief systems and thoughts we have, because this is really good stuff too.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, there are there are really two types of belief. When we're talking about belief, we have propositional belief and we have personal belief. So propositional belief would be I believe that Jesus. I believe that Jesus existed, I believe that God exists, I believe um that Jesus was a teacher, prophet, a little more of the heady side of it. And maybe maybe even more intellectual ascent to that. I believe that. Um that's propositional belief. But then we have personal belief, which is I believe in. I believe in the person of Jesus. I believe that I can trust in him for the things that he's told me. And so we need both of those as Christians. We need the propositional belief is um what m what must I do to be saved? And we must believe and confess. That's the proposition. And then the personal belief is I'm I'm going to trust. I'm gonna trust that what the Lord has told me is true, um, and that I can lean on that. And through those beliefs, it helps me to not only understand that something is true, but that I can trust in that person. And when both of those things come together, it transforms our lives, it transforms the way that we think about people. Um, it conforms us, you talked about sanctification, it conforms us more into the to the image of Christ. And I think as we do that, if we're being made more like Christ, then we will do the works of Christ. And so we we start to mirror what Christ did while he was here on the earth, loving people, spreading the gospel, suffering with one another. Um, those are good works, and we're called the good works. So, how do how do we balance salvation um by grace alone through faith and works? Well grace are are those works are a result of genuine faith. Right. They're not the cause of our salvation. Good thought. They're not the cause of our salvation, they're the result of our salvation, and so we just have to balance that because anytime we're trying to buy our way in, when we're trying to pay cash for our sins, yeah, it falls short every single time. Yeah. Every time.

SPEAKER_01

I've heard a lady say it one time to an author, she said, Um, God's love is is placed on you, not based on you. So it's just a thought of like you're it's just different. There's such different faith, faith apart from works, yeah, is because you are uh yeah, it's not apart from work. Faith with works attached to it is is because of this, and I desire it to actually come to be, not a um, not a muster up of of works.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, and you could even say, I mean, the the by our fruits will we will we be known. And so it is it is true that as Christians, as disciples and followers of Jesus, we should produce good works. We should. Not out of not out of a transactional purchase, right? But as an overflowing of God's grace and a love for what he's done for us. I mean, if I if I were to walk out into the road right now, I keep using this road analogy, I don't know why. If I were to walk out into the road, not paying attention, let's say I have earbuds in and I'm not paying attention, and you jump in front of me and you push me out of the way, and you get struck by the car and you die, and then tomorrow after your funeral, I go out and I do the same thing that I did before. Do I really appreciate what you've done for me? Is that is that having any effect on my life? That's a good thought. And so I think it should I think if we really consider what Jesus has done for us, the way that he's loved us, um, I think it will really change the way that we interact with people around us. And and good works will just be a product of that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's no more no more of a have to, it's a want-to. Exactly. Yeah, I get to. It's uh it comes from a different moment.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we get to participate. Yeah, good. All right, you started off the sermon by asking the question can any of you ever think of a time where you thought, maybe if I could just do enough, they'll approve of me? And we all have situations that we can think of where this has happened to us. Uh, why do you think we as humans naturally try to work our way to people's approval? And how can this verse make us feel confident in God's grace?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, this kind of goes back to a little what we said, right? Uh yeah, I think a lot of these will touch on each other a little bit. The little the the earthly experience is here, it's tangible, it's it's fixed. It's it's it's here right now, right? Um we can't see God, but we can we can understand his presence is real by the power of the Holy Spirit. We believe that when we read read the word, it's an inspired word is the truth. It's it's like I'm I'm I'm seeing Jesus played out into my life, right? Um, you know, the difference of this is just I people's approval um is something that we just naturally bend to a little bit. We naturally bend to just wanting people to say, Man, you look good today. You you you obviously have been taking care of yourself. Well, I worked out, yeah. I put a bunch of time into that. So I want people to say, Man, I hope they notice that I've I've I I've my muscles look a little bigger, right? Or I went and got my hair done. So hopefully people notice that. It's just a natural like bend of the sinful nature because it's a it's focused on self quite a bit. So because we've worked and we've tried to do something, we want to achieve that. We want people to recognize us and run towards that approval versus what God's approval is uh is to us. And so this verse, by grace I am saved through faith, not a result of works that no one can boast, is simply if I'm understanding it's God's grace and that's it. That means God's approval has already been placed on me. But again, it has been put on me. I have no choice but to well, I have a choice to deny it. Sure. But I have no choice but to, once I believe it and receive it, yeah, man. I am I'm no longer looking and desiring for people's growth or people's approval. I'm probably still not actually gonna carry that out sometimes. Yeah, yeah, for sure. But like my natural response would be, what does God actually say and believe about me? And that's where my identity lies, rather than um rather than it falling into people's hands.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting to think about like uh Jesus will ask the question, who do you say I am? Yeah. And we're we're a lot of times we're looking at God saying, Who who do you say I am? You know, we're looking for different types of appro approval. But as far as human relationships go too, um, you taught you used the monopoly example. Like in think about that situation, bro. And like what kind of what what was your thought process in that? Like, what are you trying to seek for that?

SPEAKER_01

Awesomely, just like I said, the back of my mind, I'm like, dude, I'm 10 years old. My brothers often don't say, I just say often, like I just generally don't have time where they're like, hey bro, we love you, care for you, right? It's just and I'm not saying that's normal sibling behavior. I get a lot of people that might not be that case anyway. But um, for me, I was like, dude, if I I'm 10, maybe if I win this game, they'll actually be like, dude, come to our circle. Or we love you, Jordan. You're doing great. This is awesome. Um, that was my bend. Yeah, I wanted to prove me, so I was like, I'm gonna buy these properties, I'm gonna do this about the game. I'm choosing to not partake in this action on the game because um I think it'll be bad. And if it's bad, then I'm gonna go in the wrong way and I'll lose, I'll be the first one to be bankrupt. It's like I'm doing all this so that I can genuinely go, yeah. Hey, I beat you guys, but now just I beat you guys, please like accept me, right? Yeah, yeah. Am I good enough? It's like the yeah, am I good enough for you guys? And uh, and that was somewhat the opposite that I got. But it's not to say my brothers were like the worst after that. It was more of just like the not like the just like the webbing in there was just like, hey guys, please like me. I'm a little brother, right? Um, but yeah, that's kind of the motivation. The motivation behind it was just straight up to get approval from the brothers. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Good. Uh all right. Next one is uh if someone were to ask you the question, if we're saved by grace alone and the blood of Jesus covers every one of our sins and struggles, why does it matter how we live? Why does it matter how we actually live?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I this is a great question. Um, you might as well throw your hands up in the air, man. Just go live like however you want through the week. And as long as you're good with God, like you're fine, right? Um again, going back to that I don't, because I've received salvation by faith, I am saved. Um, then I get to partake into not what I have to do, it's not religious duty. It is I actually my desires are changing, they're being renewed day by day. Mercies are new each day, right? Also, Paul mentions in Romans 11, dude. This is why I quoted this. Um, I think it was only the third service, actually, but he says, But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise, grace would no longer be grace. I mean, ultimately, if it relied on you and your ability to be able to carry this out, like then you're you're not living in God's grace, right? But that be but because of what God has placed identity in you, you're being drawn to his spirit to be more like him. Yeah, but it doesn't mean more, as in my motive is to get more, to be more so that he'll love me more and offer me more grace. The the the cup that we filled up was overflowing. Then I can access that.

SPEAKER_02

Yep.

SPEAKER_01

Um, this is just a matter of uh you can't just go live however you want, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we don't want cheap grace. Right grace. And Paul warns us in in Romans 6 1 um about that, about taking advantage of God's grace. Because that that can be an easy temptation. Like, yeah, it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission. God is always willing to forgive me. He's gracious to me. So if he's just gonna forgive me, then I can just live how I want and then ask him for forgiveness, and he'll forgive me. There's a big difference. Like when we talk about repentance, which is metanoia in the Greek, when we talk about repentance, it's about turning in the opposite direction, changing the way I think, changing the way I act. And so if I'm truly repentant, then I will seek to change from the things that I did in the past. But also as Christians, like we believe in the doctrine of regeneration. We believe that God is transforming us. We are new creatures. Once we believed and the Holy Spirit takes residence in us, um, we're being changed. And it's just a beautiful thing. So there should be a transformation that takes place. Absolutely. So grace is you know how we live, it doesn't determine whether Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient. It is. Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient, and grace isn't God's permission to stay the same. It's God's gift that begins to change us. And if we're and if we're not being changed by God's grace, if that's not taking place in us, then we need to examine that and and think about that. Um why why would I why would I be okay with taking advantage of that grace? It's yes, it's an overabundance, um, but I don't want to take advantage of that. If I'm if I'm being forgiven, and I mean, for a lot of Christians, that's probably the struggle. It's probably the struggle that you might deal with some certain sin. Name the sin, name, name the sc the struggle that's going on in your life, and you feel like you're going to God and you're asking forgiveness, and then it pops up again, and then you go back to God and you ask forgiveness. And if that doesn't bother you in some way, that that should raise some red flags. Right. But also the truth is that, like Paul says, I I do the things I don't want to do, I don't do the things I want to do. Therefore, I know that it's not me who's doing it, it's sin that resides within me. Right. And so we balance that tension. Like we balance the tension of I sin exists, I'm gonna partake in it. I should, I should, if I hated it perfectly like God hated it, I wouldn't. This is the the position, the condition that I'm in, but God is transforming me. And so I shouldn't just be apathetic to the sin in my life. Right. He's gonna he will forgive me. Yeah, but he also calls me to repentance. And you'll see people make that claim all the time. Well, God just forgives my sin. Yes, he does, but he calls you to something better. Why? Not for his benefit. Again, we go back to that, it's for your benefit that we do this.

SPEAKER_01

And that is the thing that we miss. That's the thing that we don't that we don't see all the time. I I could I can be first hand uh witness on that. Genuinely, when you say that, bro, like we need to stop in our tracks and go, it is for my good. If it's for my good, why would I want to go do the path of destruction? Why would I want to go to the the the the wide open gate where everyone else is in? Yeah. And they're living in depression, anxiousness, nervousness, fear, all the all the stresses, right? All of it, right? Why would I not want and desire to go into the narrow gate into the space where God is offering me uh the good places, good, good, good parts of this life from for my own benefit? It just it just seems crazy. It's like a dog returning to its own vomit. Oh man, well, if I can do it, I guess I'll just do it. Why would you want to go to the vomit? It's disgusting. It doesn't make any sense. But that's what we're saying when we say that, right? It's like if I want to go back to it, it's like that's what I'm saying. I would say the other way around is like, it's for your good. Dude, this is the best thing you could possibly ever want and ever need in your life. Yeah. Why would you not go to it?

SPEAKER_00

And the Lord's telling you that. So the ultimate question is do I trust him with that? Yeah, yeah. So I I have these desires, these are the things that I want, right? But God is calling me to something else. And so the question is, do I trust him?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Or do I go my own way? This is the question in the garden. Am I gonna trust God? Or am I gonna go my own way? So yeah, yeah, it's good. Uh, next one is uh how can this passage, this Ephesians passage, provide hope to people out there who feel like they haven't done enough or aren't good enough for God? How can it give them security in their identity and in their salvation?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, the four there. The four, it is by grace you have been saved through faith. He's literally telling you this is a guarantee. It's a guarantee that by grace, him sending Jesus down for you, by faith alone is what salvation is. You just got delivered from the final wrath, the final judgment, right? Yeah, the wrath of God. We all deserve hell. You got a free, let's go back to Monopoly. You got the get out of jail free card given to you. And that's the hope. That's the promise. That's the great, the great part about this is it's no longer be not even, he's telling you, you don't even have to work for it. You don't have to commit your life to um complete alone, uh being alone, like a like a I don't know I'm trying to think of like a yeah, monastic, yeah, like kind of like you don't have to go sit and and go meditate for hours, hours, and wrong with that. Not bad. But do you know what I'm saying? There's no requirement, there's no like book for dummies on try to how to do this thing. It's like, dude, no lot, it's not your it's not your works.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You just now get to live in the blessing of the fact that this is a guarantee, and um you're gonna do the works because now you have a desire that you want to and that you get to, not because you have to. That's the beauty of this whole thing. That's simply the beauty of the verse.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's true. And and the the question about you know, they haven't done enough or they're not good enough. Well, it the question isn't about whether or not you've done enough or whether you're good enough, because you haven't done enough. Yeah. You you aren't good enough. The question is, is Jesus good enough? That's the question. Is he good enough? Is he is he sufficient? And the the answer is yes. Like what Jesus has done for the for us, it is sufficient. So he's imputing his righteousness to us, he's giving his righteousness to us. So the the righteousness that we have before God, it's never our own. It will never be our own. And we can never contribute to that. And we want like a lot of times we want to contribute to that, and we just we can't. We can't. We can only we can only receive it. It's Christ, it's free, it's received. Um, and that and that's part of it. It has to be received with faith alone. So that concern about not doing enough, uh, not being good enough. And it's genuine.

SPEAKER_01

It's a it's really uh it's really when it comes down to it, it's like you can't do it, right? We we talked about bringing a cup up here, like the the glass jar we had was there was no holes in it. There's nothing in it, right? Yeah, we could have brought a glass up here and jacked up holes in it, right? And it's it's bleeding out and the cup pours in. It's like, oh no, what are we gonna do? You don't have to be the person who's putting it together. Like his grace overflows to the over most overflow, he lavishes it on us, like he he pours in to the uttermost, right? Yeah, so like you can have all these gashes, these bad edges, whatever you want to call it in this cup in your vessel, in your life, yeah, and it does not matter. Right. So the we're asking the wrong question when we ask that. Yeah, it should genuinely be the fact, and I get that that's a human that's a human nature-like question. Yeah, but what we should be asking is um the other way of how you proposed it, right?

SPEAKER_00

It's just that is Christ sufficient. Is Christ sufficient? Yeah, has he done enough work? No, um have I? I don't want to hope. And when we realize, um, when we realize that he's the one that's done the work for us on our behalf, um, then it should help us to not want to poke holes in our cup. Yeah, you know, yeah. But when that happens, God's grace is still poured out on those who trust in him, who trust in the work that he's done, and so that vessel is still full. It it's it's overflowing. The Holy Spirit is is taking up residence in that individual, and so it's just yeah, God's grace is is powerful, and so you don't have to worry about how good you are or the work you've done, right? Because it's not that's like you said, that's the wrong question. The question is about Christ. Um, all right, excellent. So you talked a little bit about your testimony at the end of the message. Uh, how has fully understanding God's grace and his immense love for you helped you in your walk with Christ?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, genuinely, like it frees you up so much. And not you could say frees you up to just go do whatever you want to go do. No. Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, the general thought of my day consists in the fact that I, God, thank you so much for my day. I get to go serve you today. I don't know what that entails. That means I could go, my car breaks down, still serving you. That means I can go uh lose $100 on because I dropped it and it flew away in the in the wind. That God is still like a serve you. Give me the best day, worst day, whatever it looks like, but I get to serve you. Yeah, um, that is honestly what the more and more I believe in God's grace and I'm soaked in it, and not to say belief, again, he doesn't go, here's more grace. Like he's already lavished it on me. Right. And he does that. Um, it gives me a guarantee to know uh that today is gonna be like got Jesus is gonna be on the throne, he's gonna reign. So no matter what comes up, I have every bit of hope that a crisis is gonna be sufficient and good enough for my day. Like that's ultimately what it is. So if I'm going to visit somebody, I'm going to a funeral, going to a wedding, going to baby dedication, going to whatever the case is, right? Um it doesn't matter. Ultimately, crisis is gonna be at the center of all of it. So my marriage, kids, anything.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So yeah, I think that's I think relationships is is probably the biggest one for me. Um, because before I was saved, it was very much like I would I would view people, judge them based on, you know, are the am I am I better than are they worse than me? Am I better than them? How does this work out? Some people are more or are are more um they deserve more of my time or less of my time and XYZ, you just name the pattern. But so how is understanding God's grace and his love helped me in my walk? Well, it's helped me understand that every single person is made in the image of God. Every person so they're so they have this intrinsic value and worth and honor just based on what they are, not what they do. Yeah, um, because we're quick to look at the actions of people and write them off and say, you know, you're not you're not worthy of this, you're not worthy of my attention. And all of all human beings are worthy of God's attention, and he's offering salvation to all of them. And so it's just helped me to genuine to genuinely love people better. Um, and by receiving, we're talking about the transformation, like that transformation that took place in me as I put my faith in Christ, it gave me the ability to love people like I was incapable of doing before. Yeah. And that was huge for me. And sometimes, I don't know, for some people listening, that might just sound like a lofty idea. It wasn't. It was very, it was it was a very true and tangible thing that happened in my life. To be able, to be able to look out on the street and see somebody that you don't even know and to be able to say, I I I genuinely love that person. Yeah, yeah. That is so foreign to the world, strange to the world. Um, I think there's a lot of people out there that would say, Yeah, no, you don't. No, you don't.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's so doubtful. It's even possible. You don't know who I am, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, exactly. It doesn't matter. Right, exactly. Because you you're worthy of love. Yeah. Um, because you're made in the image of a God who is love. And so, yeah, it's really helped shape that for me.

SPEAKER_01

No, and that's so good. I would say, just to get to the next question in a second, we got um a little bit left, a little bit of time left, but um like just being real and transparent, dude. People are tough, man. Like I'm I'm I'm tough to be around for certain people, and there's tough there's people in my life that I know it's just tough to be around them.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, but when we see them as God's image, or God's got some like that they're they're a uh a person who God made perfectly in whatever fashion that is or whatever style that is, I think that's where it changes. That's where the script gets flipped. Yes. I don't wake up every day going, dude, yeah, I love that guy. Yeah, I know, right? Yeah, you made me mad. Yeah, for sure. But I'm gonna work through that and think, all right, he's God, this is your image, this is your goodness.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's a thing that helps correct that train of thought where we go, oh yeah, I don't I don't really want to love this person or whatever. It it it does help correct that when those times come up. Versus pre-Jordan would go, eh, I'm not gonna do life for that person. See ya. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Good. Uh at what point do spiritual disciplines like prayer, fasting, worship, reading scripture, when do they become religiousness? This is a great thing. Working our way up to God, yeah. Can people slip into hyper-religiousness without even realizing it? And if so, what are what are some of the indicators of that? Huh?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, obviously it's very uh I think that that that that these practices uh from prayer to fasting to worship to reading scripture can very much so be hyper-religious. You can do that. I did that for the first 20, I don't know, 28 years of my life. Um and that can be much so of a I have to rather than I want to. Um I will say, as you come into Christ, or as as you've you've come into Christ justified by faith in your sanctification process, there may not be this natural tendency to go, yeah, I'm opposing all of my nature today, and I'm going to love scripture. But through, like Paul mentions in the writer of Hebrews, who's the writer of Hebrews again? Anonymous. It's anonymous, okay. Mentions, you know, that every spiritual discipline, and it's in its in its in uh entry-level spot, is it's full of pain, it's full of suffering. There's some issues that are struggling with it, right? But then through your your uh discipline and through the focus of it, it becomes plentiful, it becomes so so fruitful, and it's so good, right? Yeah, I think it's a Hebrews 11. Um you know, so I think that genuinely this can become religiousness. What are some good indicators?

SPEAKER_00

Um when you're saying things like have to, yeah, or there's an absence of of affection and joy. I think I think when there's good thought, yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01

Absence of affection and joy. Um when when you can uh wake up one day and you might miss your God and I time, or you might miss your reading time, yeah, and you're like, dang it. That's this is a great point. I'm I'm done for the day. It's like, no, yeah, you're good. Like, yes, you desire to be in scripture. What a beautiful thing that is, but you missed a day. Like maybe that maybe you fit it in later that day, but don't be religious about it. Hyper religiousness is going, I have to get to that. I have to get to my prayer room, I have to get to reading the certain amount of scripture, I have to read my Bible in a year. I said I was gonna do the Bible in a year. Yeah, oh no, I'm not gonna make the mark. Yeah, who cares? Like it's not, God's not looking down going, oh man, are you kidding me, Jordan? But over here, this guy read through it already. He's doing great. No, so that those are some good indicators for me, is like the heart has gone from unjoyful, from joyful to unjoyful. Yep. Um, like you said, just the the affection of it is just like, oh man, like what am I gonna do? I miss my reading today. It's like, what are you gonna do? You're gonna worship Jesus to the day, yeah, regardless of you pick up your Bible or not. No. Yeah. It's great to do those things. Of course, we should want to. But does that make sense? Yeah, oh absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

Like you fall asleep before praying at night because you're just you're beat at the end of the day, and then you wake up in the morning and you go, dang it, dude. Like, yeah, you don't want to have this view, like, oh god, God loves me less because I didn't pray, or my salvation is at risk because I didn't pray before I went to sleep, or God's not gonna bless me more because I missed it.

SPEAKER_01

It's like, dude, that's just not that's not how this works. It's not prosperity gospel. You can't be salvational, but you also cannot, yeah, it's not transactional to where you gain more grace. So that's just some good indicators.

SPEAKER_00

Yep, good. Uh, how does truly understanding grace and salvation through faith alone help us to approach guilt, shame, and failure as a Christian?

SPEAKER_01

Well, those things in of themselves, how do I approach guilt, shame, and failure as Christians is recognizing it in your own level, yet again. So, yet again, we've gone from God's standard, God's God's identity on us, placed on us, to now. Well, the reason I feel guilt is because I haven't picked up my Bible today. I haven't read. It's like, no, yeah, that's not the point of this, right? The shame is because I haven't done something different, right? I did the wrong thing again. Are you kidding me? Paul mentions that, right? I have things I want to do, I don't do. Things I don't do, I end up doing. Um, the reason you feel a failure is because you're you're giving yourself an expectation and you're you're creating more man-made rules rather than relying and resting in the fact that his grace has covered you. And it is believe and receive. If it's believe and receive, then it truly is believe and receive, and because of that, the spirit is turning you to in more the image of your son to his son, um, which carries out the good works. Yeah, you don't wake up and go, I'm gonna put this on, I'm gonna put on joy, I'm gonna, it's like I used to have a shirt that said, Choose joy. It's like, and it was a radio station shirt, so it's kind of time, but I like inherently I can't do that apart from God's grace. Right. So I need him in order to do so, right? Um, so I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

Hopefully that makes sense. No, that does. Yeah, I think about the the guilt and the shame part of that, you know, especially before knowing the Lord, a lot of just bad mistakes. I'm not gonna air these out on the air, uh but just stupid things that we do in our lives and things that I've done in the past. And it's like you some sometimes it's it's so hard to forgive yourself for those things, which makes it so much hard. If we if we struggle to forgive ourselves and then we think about how just and how righteous God is, then we say, Man, it must be really hard for God to forgive me, then maybe impossible for God to forgive me. Um, but scripture is clear this is why, this is why we have to be grounded in the truth of God's word, because emotions, we're humans, it's fickle. Um, emotions are real, but they're not always true. And so we have to believe what scripture tells us. And scripture tells us that there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, and we have to hold on to that and believe it that it that it's actually true. But we're getting a one-two punch because we have an accuser that tries to condemn us, tries to tell us that we're guilty, but we also do that ourselves. So we've got an enemy doing it, and then we've got ourselves doing it. We have we we have all this negative speech to ourselves that we that we struggle with. Um, and so there's that guilt and shame. But we have to we have to trust in the promises that God has given us. Um, Jesus is God, and so the things that he has told us in his, you know, Jesus is the final revelation to us. Um, we can see the fullness of God in him. We don't have to wonder. We don't have to wonder about what God thinks about us anymore. We don't have to wonder about um if he really loves us, if he really forgives us, if he really accepts me. Um, we don't have to wonder about these things anymore. So that can erase the guilt and the shame that we have even in our past lives, even when we are reminded of it, even when people in our past lives might come up to us and try to remind us of that. We can tell them, you know, that's not a house I live in anymore. Like I don't ex I've been forgiven of that. And and and I'm gonna trust the Lord. It comes back to that. Do I trust him? Yeah. I'm gonna trust him when he tells me that he forgives me. And because he's forgiven me, I don't want to make the same mistakes that I made in the past because I appreciate so much what he's done for me. I'm not running back out in the road after you push me out of the way. I want to, I really wanna, I want that to I want that to weigh heavy on my heart. I want it to influence the way that I live my life. Um, and I think that that's just a really good way to help people that are struggling with guilt, shame, or failures as a as Christians. The Lord knew we would fail. Yeah, he knew it. Yeah, this isn't a surprise to him. He's calling us to repent and to continue to run back to him. His mercies are new when? Every morning, every day. Like he's there for us, he's waiting for us, he loves us. Uh so we can hold on to that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And the have to, the have to there is again, we're going to this want to, I get to. Um, your if your have to is based on religiousness, that's where it's messed up, right? That's where the guilt and the shame and all that's gonna be. But if your have to is because he's your lifeline. I have no other choice. Like, hey, who who who do who do they who do you say that I am, right? We'll go back to that. Yep. Where else are we gonna go? Exactly. He's my lifeline. He's everything that I ever want, everything I need. Then it then the have to is built on something that is so outside your own grounds, right? It's nothing to do with you.

SPEAKER_00

So it's hard truth you can hold on to.

SPEAKER_01

Right, for sure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, good. Good. Um, all right, last question, Jordan. So we talked a little bit about your sermon illustration. Uh, you painted that picture of God's unending grace, it's overflowing grace. Um, you had one jar, you had the the lid was closed, and another where it was open, showing that God's grace is continually being poured. Out, but our response determines whether we receive and fully experience that grace. So, how would you explain the role of our response and how that plays into us receiving God's grace? Because we often talk about grace as something completely free and undeserved, but scripture also talks about repentance, surrender, and faith. So, how does that fit together? How do we have a response in that? Like, how do you see that being an important part of that?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, like as far as like the I've kind of been touching on it right a little bit. But um, yeah, the the idea that this was one I was I was so nervous when I explained this, dude. Um I had talked to you a little bit beforehand, uh, to to Joe to Mark and a few others. I was like, man, I was like stressing out a little bit on some of this to how to explain grace. Yeah. It's like, oh yeah, gra dude, grace is simple, it's unmerited favor, you know, undeserved kindness. Um, it's whatever, right? But it's like, dude, grace is complex as all get out. How do you take a simple thing but make it that's also complex and actually break it down? So I was thinking about um this cup idea, and that the idea was just that it was a vessel, and it was simply this spot where if I don't have any ability to carry out my salvation because of grace through faith, right? Um, where these end up actually coming to fruition and they come to a realization is when again we take that picture of God's grace has been poured out over us and in us and through us. I'm not contributing until it is um overflowing, and I shouldn't say until should genuinely say I am now jumping into the fact that I am now able to access good works. Yes, right. Not that I am able to do them. That's a kind of hard way to say it. I'm able to access these good works. I'm able to go, God, how many be more loving and patient of my wife? Not, hey Jordan, you should be more loving and patient to your wife, because I read it in the self-help Barnes and Noble section, right? Does that make sense? Um, so when it looks at like uh repentance, it's like, dude, okay, God, I am so sorry I did this again. I fell in the same trap, I visited the same vomit, I've done the same childlike sin or struggle that I have. Yeah. Um, help me, God, like help my unbelief. That is different than the one that's with the lid on it, is going, well, I got it. Ultimately, what you're saying is if you have a lid on the on the glass, is you're going, Jordan, just muster it up. You can get over this. Go ahead and go love your wife today. Go read the Barnes and Noble self-help section because that's like that's a truth. And that just because it's because it's from God's goodness, I guess you'll be you'll be okay. It's like, nope, I'm not actually truly believing repenting of this thing. Um, that's the difference between what this looks like, and that's what we were trying to describe is grace. It's just uh difficult one to understand, especially visually and seeing it. But that's what we were trying to depict when we when we chose the the jars, the the being open and closed.

SPEAKER_02

Yep.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and where those actually lay out. Those those uh the the salvation, repentance, and the surrender and faith really actually working is I'm not my own anymore. Yeah, I'm literally he's my goal, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

He is it. Yeah, and and as far as like the yeah, our our response to that, like uh I would say that grace is what it it's what makes that response even possible. Like we we God's grace allows us to respond. And so like it's a free gift, but free gifts can be denied. Yeah like I could offer you something freely, and you could say no thanks. Like it's that's that's possible. Yeah um and so God's grace is poured out, it's abundant, but we have to freely respond in faith. And scripture's clear about that, that there is a there is a response that needs to take place. Um and so I think the Lord is calling us to something beautiful, something good. He has offered us something we do not deserve. We we just don't deserve it. And so he offers it to us anyway and says, it's a free gift. I love you, trust me. And so those are the steps that we want to take. We wanna we wanna believe it, we wanna trust him with it. Um, and we wanna we wanna hold fast to it. Yeah, then holding fast to it, it's gonna it's gonna change the way that we interact with people. Right. It's gonna it's gonna change the way that we interact with people within the body of Christ, right? Church on a Sunday morning and without people out in the world. It's gonna teach us how to love them better. People that are our enemies, you know, people that might hate us on account of Christ. Uh it's gonna teach us to just love them well. And so, yeah, that God's grace, we have the opportunity. You kept talking about participating in that. I I think that's such a good word. We have the opportunity to show uh to reflect Jesus' grace to the rest of the world. And in we do that in the way of transformed lives. You shared your testimony and how you were transformed through that and it was painful, and you had a lot of things you had to go through. Yeah, but it changed you and it shaped you and it it sanctified you. Um, and we I'm sure we all have stories that are like that, and it's just a beautiful story about how God is doing a work in us that He will see to the end, that the work that He began in us, He will finish it, He'll complete it in us, and so yeah, that's great, bro. It's great.

SPEAKER_01

Man, it's been so good. Um we would love to dig a little further in with you guys, I guess, as we we close up. But um man, thanks for being here. It's such a fun time. This is great. This is the first time you and I have had the privilege of doing this. And without Joe or our marks out, right? So we kind of went on little tangents, said some things that maybe are good, maybe aren't. No, I don't know. We're good.

SPEAKER_00

We should get a round table one of these days and do, you know, a couple of three, four guys at a time and just talk it out.

SPEAKER_01

But yeah, it's great. Throw out some ideas to us in the chat. Let us know like if there's like things that you guys would love to see on here. We'd love to try to throw out some new ideas and new thoughts on this. Um, but hopefully our goal is to inspire you, encourage you, but also to be a place of uh we're just normal people. Like we are normal people who don't have it together. We're believing by faith, uh, by grace through faith, just as much as you are. So if you find yourself to be in a place where you're like, man, I can't keep doing this on my own, yeah, that's great. Come talk. Let's let's talk not only to God, but talk to us. Um, and uh we'll try to help as much as we can get community and all that good stuff. But otherwise, thank you guys so much for jumping on. We hope you have a great day, and we'll see you on the next episode. See you guys. Thanks.