After The Amen

After The Amen - Ep. 39: "I Have Been Crucified With Christ"

• Jordan • Season 1 • Episode 39

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0:00 | 49:37

Welcome to “After The Amen” 🙏 
The goal of this podcast is to revisit the message from the previous Sunday in order to unpack the passage even further, ask key questions, and discover how faith can practically move from Sunday morning into every day of the week.


Linked Sunday:  Jul 26, 2026

SPEAKER_00

Hey there, everybody, and welcome to After the Amen. This is our podcast segment here at Frank Mouth Bible Church where we take the content from Sunday morning's message and we unpack it later in the week. And I'm joined by Pastor Mark Hazen. Hi Joe. How you doing? Good. It's been a while. It's been a little bit. It's been a minute. By that I mean like two weeks, but that's yeah, but we both had a little time away, which is good.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. You did some camping. I did some camping. Different kind of camping.

SPEAKER_00

I did a couple days camping. Uh pastors don't really camp so much. Most I don't think do, just because it's a mostly a weekend activity.

SPEAKER_02

We did midweek camping.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. A little bit. So it was good though.

SPEAKER_02

I went to a Christian family camp. That's a completely different opportunity. Yeah. Different experience entirely. Yep. Went over to Gull Lake Ministries. A great family camp they put it on for years.

SPEAKER_00

I've still never been there. You've you've talked about it for a long time, but I've never never been there. Yeah, good good week.

SPEAKER_02

But good to be back. Good to be talking on the podcast again.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Rolling into Sunday sermon. We're uh deep into our summer series and looking at uh familiar verses. Uh this past week was Galatians 2.20, which I'm sure a lot of people know and we're very familiar with. I'm gonna just quote the verse or read the verse here. Sure. Just to get us going, to get our thoughts around this verse. It says, I've been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me, and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me. It's an interesting verse because it's got, I've been crucified, I no longer live. Christ lives in me, the life I now live. So I no longer live and I'm now living, and we're gonna press into that, I'm sure, with some of our questions. Uh fortunately, we've got questions from the congregation and questions that we want to talk about. So let's get rolling in it. Great. You began the message Sunday morning, and uh you gave a little bit of an illustration of your uh uh premarried life and post-married life. Yes. I was there on your wedding day. You you were there on my wedding day. I was there. I have memories of your wedding. And um how long ago? How many years? Seventeen, seventeen and a half. Seventeen years. Awesome. How is marriage a good illustration of death and new life, of no longer living and now living? And and I I preface that because you mentioned on Sunday morning uh Megan, our connection coordinator, yeah, is getting married, getting married this fall, married uh to Ben, hey Moss. Yes. Um so should we be telling, you know, Megan, that get are you preparing to die? So how is how is a little bit? There is some of that, isn't there? Yeah. So yeah, how is marriage a good illustration of of death and new life?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think the first uh thing I'd say, you know, when I when it comes to preaching and my approach, I usually try to open up with some sort of story or way to connect people that illustrates you know the topic at hand. Yeah. And sometimes when you're trying to figure out a good illustration, a lot of times you you use the illustrations that are already provided for you in the Bible. Yeah, marriage is a profound illustration that's repeatedly used. So it was kind of an easy button for me in terms of like picking an opening story. Um, because I think that's that's part of the the mystery of what marriage is. It's designed to be a reflection of the union that Christ has with his bride, the church. And so that was kind of the approach to take that. But uh, in terms of um how these two connect, I think maybe most foundationally, you know, like I'm still me, I still have the same personality, and um I'm still the same person. Yeah. So that has never changed, although parts of my my character and the way that I live, you know, that that's there's growth there, there's maturity that comes, sanctification, you know, that comes with marriage. But the identity I had as an individual, the moment I said those vows and said I do and made those vows, that that identity, that person I once was, is no longer here. It's there, dead, so to speak, because now I'm joined to my wife and I have a new identity. I am now one with her. She does as well. So it's a joining of two lives together, and so the two individuals are no longer operating autonomously anymore. And so that that identity is gone. So I think in that sense, it's kind of a helpful way to think through that. The same thing is true in the gospel and what it means to be united with Christ. Yeah. Is that former autonomous, independent person um who consequently will get into it, is condemned and all those things. That person is now gone.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, but yet it's not like when Paul says that he ceases to have a he has a different personality or he has a different, you know, that those things are retained. So there's a sense in which a part of us is dead and gone, but yet we're still very much so living.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah, you you have uh a pre-marriage existence, yes, where everyone knew you as Joe. Yep. After you get married, you know, we even say at wedding ceremonies, right? You become one. Yes. And from that day forward, we recognize you as a husband and wife. And so literally, it is a change in every way that we now think of you in relation to your wife and your wife in relation to to you. Her her individuality and your individuality hasn't gone away. Yeah, but yet the that oneness is now recognized, that's that's the way it is. Sure. Also, um you'll never be, you know, after you say your vows and and proclaim your love to one another before witnesses, um, and and we proclaim you husband and wife, you're never any more married than that moment. That's the moment you're you're married from that moment on. Right. But your life changes from that point on.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. And that's the part of it where I, you know, the learn the learning to live in light of who I now am. Right. Is was part of what I yeah. So that was part of what I wanted to use to lead into the message, because obviously much of the message is about the Christian life. And um, yeah, so that's it's unique because you're that's a really good way to say it. I'm not more married today than I was 17 years ago when I said I do. But the relationship has changed. But the relationship has changed, and I'm now reflecting is maybe I'm reflecting that union probably far better than I did day one. Right. Because now because I'm learning, I've learned part of what it means to function together. And and the the way, you know, uh clearly there's a spiritual component to marriage, I really believe. That's why it's a function, you know, the of the church. The pastors will officiate weddings, and we do that here. And there's a spiritual joining together, but it's in every way, it's like you're no longer operating autonomously. Yeah, it's just not the way God designed it. So it's like you you learn all those various ways of like I think I shared like my plans were my own. Well, now I don't just make plans autonomously. I can't, I shouldn't. Yeah, it wouldn't be wise. Yeah. Uh my finances, my decisions, everything about my life has now been joined to someone else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And in UK, you learn to honor Allie in your plans and in your decision making. You no longer do those autonomously. Correct. But you you learn to do that because undoubtedly you got married and made plans that early on, like, oh, I've not thought of my wife in this new decision.

SPEAKER_00

And the message was a little bit long. I actually was gonna press the illustration further because I just remember, you know, pre-marriage, like me and my friends, you know, you'd you'd go and hang out, and like back then, college, you know, early 20s, it's like a lot of times people would like say, Oh, you want to go hang out? And like they're texting you at like 10 p.m.

SPEAKER_02

Like that's just not even that's not a thing anymore.

SPEAKER_00

Now it's like if my friends text me at the 10 p.m., they might not hear from me until the next morning because I'm yeah, I'm other obligations, probably. It's like I'm not so you just you know, there's so much that changes, yeah, but it doesn't happen overnight. It happens progressively.

SPEAKER_02

You said you're learning to live into this new relationship, which we're we're talking about here. I probably should have got a hold of Allie to see if she had anything to input into this conversation.

SPEAKER_00

She would love the opportunity to just be platformed. She actually wouldn't, because she doesn't necessarily like to speak in front of people, but she's like she's spent 17 years hearing stories about herself.

SPEAKER_02

So I'm sure she's domesticating her husband.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I'm sure there's gonna be someday where there's just gonna be an opportunity for her to just like all right, let me tell some stories.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So are you are you ever gonna have a perfect marriage? Allie would like to know this. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Are you ever gonna have a perfect marriage? Um To my wife in this life, no.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. By the time you have a perfect marriage, it won't you won't be married any longer. That's a whole other conversation.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, marriage, marriage, marriage will end. Well, I yeah, and that's where I um when the shadow gives way to the substance and we're we're with Christ face to face, there that's the perfect. Yeah, that's that's to come. Right. And that's what the marriage reflects, anyways. That's what it points to.

SPEAKER_02

So yeah, and the beauty and glory and wonder um and challenges of marriage, all of those things, all that beauty and wonder of uh of marriage points to the relationship that we have with Christ. It's a good it's a perfect illustration. And when the relationship with Christ is perfected, yeah, the glories and joys and beauties of marriage are going to be outweighed by this greater glory. That's fascinating. That's that's hard to imagine.

SPEAKER_00

We I actually was I don't know if it was on a podcast or just a conversation. I think it was just a conversation lately, but I there is that piece to did we did we talk about I can't know. I don't know if it was a podcast or not, but like there's a part of it where I know for some people they're like, oh, I you know, I can't wait for Jesus to come back, but I just want to get married first. It's a wonderful impulse. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Yeah, we understand that the aspects of marriage that are most joyous and um most desirable reach their full consummation when we're with Christ. It that makes sense. It's the that that the impulses, the feelings, the emotions. We're not gonna feel when we're with Jesus face to face and in glory and um in the new creation, we're not gonna feel like we're missing out on anything or longing to go back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Hard for a a young couple anticipating marriage to envision that. We're made for a relationship, made for community, made for that type of intimacy. And to think that it there's anything that's greater than that, but it's it points to marriage points to a far greater relationship.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and the best that we experience here is a foretaste of what's to come. So it's just a uh, you know.

SPEAKER_02

We could go off the rails on this one, so we won't, but I I think that's even why Paul can argue for his single life. Oh, 100%. Because Christ has come, what marriage points to has been fulfilled in Christ's coming. Yeah, he's now married to Christ, he's in union with Christ and bearing spiritual children, looking forward to the glory, and can actually be like, I can now live into this. Not everyone can. Not everyone, he even admits that not everyone can receive that counsel. But we we could go off the rails and that uh conversation.

SPEAKER_00

I just even love, I mean, we are gonna go off the rails a little bit, but that whole paradigm that you see in the new covenant is so cool too, because in the old covenant, it's like the propagation of children was so essential for part of what God planned for Israel. It was this line of descendants, and it was a physical descendant thing. In the new covenant, you just see, yeah, it's like Paul is single, uh, and he up and he also has children children, and his brothers and sisters are people who may not be direct blood, you know what I'm saying? Oh, yeah. This this idea of what Christ has accomplished in the under the new covenant, it's um it's uh it transcends just those earthly dynamics. Sure. I don't know if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Uh Paul uh continually refers to Timothy and others as his children in the faith or son of the faith. And I think he genuinely had that. Anyways, we'll get we'll get off the reels. Yep. So, anyways, you're you're you're living into this marriage, you're living into this new life. So there's a part of you that in a sense died, and a new life is brought in in marriage, and marriage points to our relationship with Christ. Um, so how are you learning? Yeah, I mean, you're learning to live into this marriage relationship. How are you learning to live into this new relationship with Jesus? How is the connection there? We've already started to touch on that, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00

So a little bit comparably. So part of what the message is, and I don't know, I'll follow the questions, we'll press into this, but this idea of Paul saying, I've I've been crucified with Christ. Oh, yeah, his old identity, who he once was, you know, he we're gonna dip our toes into probably Romans a little bit, but he will often refer to like his old self or um I think I even talked about how he was found in Adam. That's some of what the language he uses there, like his identity in Adam, which was identified by sin. Yeah, who stood condemned. That person, who he was, that identity, died with Christ. So he so the moment that he trusted in Christ and received this gift of salvation, he was united with Jesus and that old identity, similar, comparable to marriage, died. Ended. And now he's brought into this new life with Christ. Um uniquely, Paul is still Paul, that he still has aspects of his life and character that are unrefined and un and not fully living out that new union with Christ. But he, you know, the idea of the Christian life is that that old identity is dead and gone, and now we're beginning to live in light of who we are in Christ with our new identity, which is um joined to Jesus, connected to Christ, and um righteous, not our own righteousness, it's an alien righteousness, and even positionally righteous.

SPEAKER_02

Yep. Learning to live into the righteousness that he's been given. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's just, I think the illustration just kind of uh lends itself really well to talk, you know, we we are now joined to Jesus by faith. Um that is our new identity, we're found in him, and as we live through this Christian life, we are growing and learning to live uh more consistent with who we now are in our union with Jesus.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So yeah. Stepping forward, along with that, in the New Testament, we are instructed to put off sin. Yes, and to put on Christ. Yes. We're told to live by faith, grow in grace, keep in step with the Spirit, not quench the spirit. We're we're instructed to live up to the calling we receive, to work out our salvation. Yeah. So there's this matter of we've been joined to Jesus, I've been crucified with Christ, I no longer live, Christ lives in me, the life I now live, I live by faith. How how does faith and effort come together in a God-glorifying way? Yeah. You know, so as I'm growing into this new life, uh I'm I'm I'm putting off sin, I'm putting on Christ, I'm I'm learning to live by faith. But how is that done in a God-glorifying way, not in a self-boasting way? Does that make sense or a self-glorifying way? Yeah, that's a good um that's a good Because we're not passive. You mentioned that on Sunday.

SPEAKER_00

We're not passive, we're active in this. Well, I'm just thinking there's a lot of, I guess, things I could say about that. One is um You think back through habits of grace in David Mathis. Yeah, exactly. When our old identity dies, like part of the reality is that old identity was enslaved to sin. So like there's a sense in which we need to understand that what it means to be joined to Jesus and now for the spirit to be dwelling within us, we now have the ability to live in a new way. You know, this uh, as Paul talks about this law of sin and death that exists, it's still you know, that sin nature is still dragging us down, but now we have this new life in Christ, which enables us to live in a new kind of way, which is a grace, it's a gift to us. So there's there's this understanding of anything that we even begin to do that now is honoring to God, that's a gift that He's provided for us. Even though we're we're working toward it, there's effort, yeah, it is a gracious gift. And uh that enablement that we can live a new kind of way that's not dominated by sin, that's not enslaved to sin, we're no longer slaves to sin. We've been set free from that. That's a gift. Yeah, and so there's a part of the way that we live where we understand that the the other part of it that's kind of interesting is when Paul, and I didn't even get into this, but when Paul and verse 19 um says, For through the law I died to the law, that last part of it he says, so that I can live for God, yeah, or to God. When when in our own effort we're seeking to to to earn something for ourselves, we're we're working for self. Yeah. Right? Yep. That's and that's self-righteous, that's sin. I mean anything apart from faith is sin. But we're we're working on our own effort to you know, under the law to try to accomplish for ourselves something. Um that's self-righteousness. But when we die to that law, as Paul says, his his righteous living is now not for self, not to earn something before himself, but it's purely in response to it's out of love, right? So the so the fruit of his salvation is now producing in him this righteous living that's not so that way he can earn a standing before God. He already has it in Christ. Yeah. But now it's just because he it's out of love for for the God who sent his son to die for us. You know, it's it's he's living now for God. So part of even living under the law is he was living for self. Yeah. So I think it glorifies God when we begin to live because when we begin to pursue these righteous things, because we do it from a place of knowing that we're already accepted by him because of what Jesus did, but because he is worthy of being glorified and worshipped and honored and obeyed, it's coming from a different place. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So when Paul commands that we work out our salvation, yeah, the fact is we've been brought into that salvation. Yeah. So now we now can. We now can, absolutely. Which that imperative is an impossible imperative to someone who's not been saved. Exactly. And so when Paul says live up to the calling you've received, the calling we've received is a calling that we receive by grace through the power of the gospel, right? To to belong to God through faith in Christ. So this is not um commands that we're keeping for our merit or benefit, right? But it's not because we now can. Yes. And uh and so we're instructed to live by faith and to grow into grace. Exactly. Because there's a sense in which we don't grow ourselves, um, but we we we exercise the imperatives because we now can, and it's Christ who works in us for his good people.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, Philippians too. That's the idea too. There is it's like we have in that one kind of sentence of Paul, it's like we are working, we're working out our salvation, but for it is God who works in the world. He's working in us.

SPEAKER_02

So and then along with that, Philippians is the work that God began, he will take it on to a completion, uh, a flourishing finish, which is also a great promise as well. Um, because our effort goes up and down. Yep. Um, but God's commitment to us as his children doesn't. Yes. And what he has put in us by his spirit um is going to grow. Right. It's it's going to it's gonna reach its fulfillment.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, very good. Well, and even in those moments too, and I don't know if we have it in the questions, but you know, that ebb and flow, there are moments where we're gonna begin to serve and and honor him in in really great ways, and there's gonna be ways where we fall short of that. Part of even what Paul is saying about this idea of I've been crucified, that that part of us that's self-condeming, that when we do fall short as a Christian, the recogni the recognizing of the fact that that our sin has been dealt with justly in Christ, yeah, is the what keeps us from falling back into despair or discouragement, which I know I I think even some of the questions that got brought in, that's gonna be probably even sweet to press into.

SPEAKER_02

But yeah, anyways.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

All right. We have been united to Jesus. Yes. Been united to Jesus by grace you faith. My by the way, we probably ought to mention a couple books. There are a couple good books on union with Christ. Uh Home with God is a new newer book. Uh Union with Christ with Wilburne. Uh, those are there's a lot on that topic. But we're we're talking here. You have Knowing God by Packer. That's that's just a easy reading. That's just a well, that's a good classic. It's a classic. Everyone needs to read that one. It is great. Uh United to Jesus, by grace through faith, you comment on the fact that we've died with Christ and we've been raised to new life. Yes. It's important to note that we died and we were raised to new life. Yep. So united to Jesus, his death became our death, his resurrection guarantees and secures our own. So we've died with Christ, we've been raised to new life. Sin didn't die. Yeah. So we were once in relationship with shin with sin, as you pointed out already in this conversation. We were in a relationship with sin. We died, raised, now belong to Jesus. Yeah. Sin never died. Right. Sin didn't go through that death process. So that so sin's still present. Correct. How does that influence? And we're already starting to touch into this in our conversation, but how does that reality influence our present ongoing Christian life?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think it's important so to go back to what Paul talks about in Romans, you know, the old self is dead and gone. Um he uses the illustration of marriage there as well. He does. So keep going.

SPEAKER_02

You can jump into it if you want, but well, if if you die, Allie is free to be married to another. Yes. If Allie dies, you're free to be married to another. And he he points that out along we've died, we've been raised to new life, we're now married to Christ. So that he uses that illustration.

SPEAKER_00

Good, yeah, yeah. Um but but to talk through just a little bit like there, the oh even going into chapter seven, you know, I I touched on that, I quoted some of those, some of that when I talked through this inward wrestling with sin. But there's a sense in which Paul's old identity is dead and gone. Who he was in Adam, that person no longer exists. He's now found in Christ. That's who he is positionally, that's his identity. Yeah. Um, but there is this this sin nature, the flesh, which rises up in him, which we just need to be cognizant of that that part of us is very much so alive. It's this body of Flesh at times he talks about. Yeah, not only is it alive, it's just familiar. It's familiar. We used to live there. Yep. And when we live in gratifying those desires, it's living consistent with a person, the person we once were. Yeah. And that's no longer who we are. That's no longer our identity. We're now found in Christ. And so to begin to live consistent with that new identity is by putting off that. That's where I talked about the distinction. Like there's a sense in which we are already dead, but there is a part of us that we need to daily crucify. And that is the desires of the flesh. Now we don't do that again autonomously. We don't need to operate autonomously anymore because we are now joined to Jesus. We do it through the power he provides and um through the relationship. And we're we're not a slave to that anymore. We were once enslaved to it. We're no longer that's consistent with the old identity. We're no longer enslaved to that. And so that's important to understand. Um it but at the same time, we need to be prepared for the fact that the life that we now live is a life of struggle.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, because we're easily tempted back into that prior life. Exactly. We're familiar with those ways. Right. And uh so we don't need to be surprised that the temptation to that is not difficult.

SPEAKER_00

And there is um, there is a part of it too. Maybe even it's helpful to explain it this way. You know, we use some big words, and I'll clarify these words. There's justification, yeah, which is our declaration of righteousness, the righteousness of Christ given to us. That happens at the moment of salvation. Conversion. Moment of conversion. So there's justification, which is the moment that people become believers, Christians. Then there's sanctification, which is the growing in holiness throughout the the Christian life. Living in this new identity, which is really what we're pressing into. Growing into grace, yep. And then there's glorification, which is where it's we're with Christ face to face, we're are we have new bodies, we're perfected. And what's interesting is when you think about salvation, salvation really encompasses the totality of that. Sometimes we just talk about it in the very beginning. Yeah, but uh you know, we're being saved presently. Yep. But part of to understand that maybe more clearly with sin, the moment of our conversion, we were saved from the penalty of sin because our justification was the moment that we were declared righteous and we exchanged our sin for Christ's righteousness. And so we were saved from the penalty of sin at justification. Today we're being saved from the power of sin, it's no longer dominating us. And one day we'll be saved from the presence of sin. That's our glorification. Yeah. So through justification, sanctification, and glorification, you you you see the impact of sin. We're saved from the penalty. We're currently being saved from the power, and then one day we'll be saved from the presence. The sin will be no longer.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and fortunately we have in the present, when we're being saved, being saved from the power of sin, we have every resource available to us. We do. The Spirit is in us, God's word is in print. Promises. Fortunately, if we have it in our language and we have the promises of God, right? Uh, we have the community of God's people where we encourage one another on to love and good deeds, uh, hold one another accountable for us. Marriage is marriage is one of those most sanctifying relationships. And um, so we have been given everything we need for this life and godliness. Yeah, uh, we're not left um resourceless. You know, we've got a lot of every resource, which is it, which is an encouragement. Right. Even when we um are tempted and fail, um we've already been saved from the penalty of sin. Yes. And we're being saved from the power. Just the fact that we when we're tempted and fail, we have the spirit that convicts us, we have uh Christ that we run to for forgiveness and the fellowship is restored. Other belief, all of that that's just good to notice as as well and to bring into the conversation. Oh, I have at the bottom of the page, is there a day coming when sin will be dead and the law no longer operational? We've already touched on that. That's just a glorious thing. That's in and living into that eschatology, if you will, living into that that thought of there's a day coming when this will be consummated. Absolutely, yeah. And sin is no more. The present, as you've said, presence of sin is gone. And even the law is no longer operational in the sense that we're we're perfect. We yeah, anyways, looking forward to that day.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you know, and and the Bible the imagery it gives of new creation and the life to come, it's it's incomprehensible. But I mean it's Eden-esque, right? It's some of the it's it's kind of you know, better than Eden. Better than Eden. Yeah, yeah, there were Eden 2.0, and you have the temple imagery in Eden, but it's like there's no there's no serpent there, you know, like it's there's just no there's no potential.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and we we spend a lot of time when we talk about these things along the lines of our life uh perfected, uh, and we think of that in relationship, we're gonna have a perfect union with God. Now we're learning to live into that new identity, but that identity is gonna be perfect visual and actual, yep, and we're gonna be living in God's presence. Uh, we often don't think of along the lines of how relationships um between us will be perfected as well. That's a that's a glorious thing for a good conversation. That's great. In uh in the sermon, you gave another illustration, which I thought was interesting, of your family moving into your grandparents' home. Yeah. Uh you were living in that home when I met you as a as a kid. Yeah, yeah. And I I didn't know or had forgotten that that was your actually, was it your dad's parents' place?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So I'm so you moved into your grandparents' home. Yep. I so that but that's was always a Birkabean home because it was it was, I think my grandfather built it. I don't I don't know all the story of when that would have taken place, but my that's the home my dad grew up in. Yeah. And then we we lived in the city of Saginaw for a little while. Uh, we then briefly lived in the township for a little while, and I think it was probably seven years old.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I actually remember I went to I was the ring bearer and my uncle's wedding, and we went to New Jersey for the wedding. And I the maybe these versions of the story are different, but I came back. This is how you remember it's seven years old. Seven years old. We came back and we didn't go to our old home. We went to my grandparents' house. And then I I I remember learning, oh, we're we now live at grand grandma grandpa's house at seven. Now, maybe maybe people did tell me that, but it was to me, it was kind of a surprise. So it was like that whole experience is very vivid for me when we were there because we had already had stuff there and we were beginning to set up, and it was like as a kid, I would go to my grandparents' house fairly often, yeah, uh in Carlton. And um, you know, I have just the smells and all like I still remember all those things. But then that house became ours. And so it was just pretty vivid.

SPEAKER_02

So interesting. I hadn't thought of this prior, but I mean you go out to New Jersey to your uncle's wedding, he's he's dying to an old life, entering into a new life. You come home and you go from the home that you, you know, seven years or whatever you lived in, and now you're in grandpa and grandma's home. Yeah, that's a unique thing. I had I had grandparents that live three miles to the east, and the other set of grandparents three miles to the west. So I had close proximity and good relationship with both sets of grandparents. I've I never moved into either of their home. Sure. That's just a unique thing. It is unique. Um, but anyways, I thought it was a great illustration. You talked about the fact that you moved into grandpa and grandma's home as a seven-year-old kid is gonna be like, hey, this is grandpa and grandma's place. It it looks like grandpa and grandma's place, it smells like grandpa and grandma's place, all uh all of that. But over time, renovations were done, and that home became the Birkabean home, your your home. Yeah. And that that's I I thought that was a gil good illustration as well. Um, so the remodeling projects to make it your own home, you reference the fact that the spirit has been you know brought into us and is remodeling us from the inside out, if you will. Um, when I think through the relationship there, having done some home remodeling, uh, some projects you move in and you do the remodeling right away. Exactly. And then there's other remodeling projects that just take longer. And then quite frankly, there's just some things that never get done. I want to talk about that as it relates to the Holy Spirit moving in us and remodeling us from the inside out, making it his abode. It is his abode. It is the spirit lives in us. Yep. He's remaking us from the inside out. And again, some things, some things are knocked out right away. Uh some things we struggle with a long time. And then I I'm convinced there's certain aspects of our life that just not going to be addressed before we see Jesus.

SPEAKER_00

It's true. Yeah, I think that's uh that's a helpful even way to uh if to draw from the illustration even further. Yeah, because I think part of where I pressed into that was because Paul said, Hey, I it's no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And so the Spirit takes residence within us, and the life of Christ is is being lived out through us and made manifest uh in and through um our lives, but that's not that's not an immediate transformation. We don't we don't just live like Jesus overnight. The moment we can become Christians, we're not perfect. Jesus is perfect, yeah. But as the Spirit does his work in us in conjunction with our working and our growth and our learning to live in light of who we now are um in Christ, it's just there are aspects where, I mean, for for all of us, you know, maybe there are moments of immediate conviction, yeah, something. And it's like, oh, yeah, I can't do that anymore. Yep. That belonged to an old way of life. Yeah. And some for many people, when they become Christians, especially if they come later in, you know, later in life, I became a Christian when I was young. There are immediate things that are recognized that, like, hey, this is not how I can live anymore. Yeah. And a lot of people will put those things to death, you know.

SPEAKER_02

And yeah. And they might not be completely immoral. It's just like that activity I can no longer do because that that activity may not be immoral, but it pushed me into yeah, that's a little bit.

SPEAKER_00

So you so there are things that just begin to change immediately, but we don't arrive, right? So it's just a slow process of you know, um, and I think my point was someone new lives here now. Like if you're a believer, someone new lives here now. Yeah. And the the old ownership, the signs of the old ownership are fading. Yeah. And the signs of who we now are in Christ and the new ownership are being made manifest progressively. Yeah. We're it's never, you know, there are gonna be to use the illustration, you know, um, there were actually, it's actually funny. There were things, it's crazy. I just thought about this. There were things in the house that uh I don't know if ever got changed. Yeah, yeah. That were like, you know how you intended to? I was just thinking, because I was just working in my own house yesterday and I I saw something and that was in there. I was like, you know, I meant to do that a long time ago. Um there were things, yeah, that just you never you just never got to. You always intended to. Yeah. You never got to.

SPEAKER_02

Learn learn to live with it. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yep. And I think that that's part of in the Christian life. There are things that we we will never arrive on this side of glory. And so we we strive and we labor through the power he provides, not to earn something before God because he's earned it for us, but out of our love for God to serve him. And little by little he's conforming us more and more into the image of Christ.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, he's cleaning out rooms and repairing rooms. Yep. I always find it fascinating when you talk with people who come to faith in Jesus Christ, how often there are certain things that like right top drawer. They're just they're like you like you've described, they're done. And some of it's not even difficult, like you know, pick the vice, whatever it is. You know, sure person used to swear like a sailor, and now that's just it was eradicated, it's just gone. Sure. And it's almost like a non-issue for him, it's not even difficult. Um, but then there's other things that are just an ongoing struggle, and and he learns those, like, oh man, and and he's you know, putting those off as the spirit is putting those off. And I find it fascinating that within the body of Christ, that's like a big mixed bag. It is, and um, and so it causes us to be humble toward one another. Yep. Um, but it's just it's always very fascinating. The things that are like immediately changed and things that are changed long term, and then just the acknowledgement as you've described in the things in your own home, like, oh, I never got to that. When Christ comes or we we go home, that's when that sanctification is complete, right? Which tells me there are some projects in my heart and in my life. I might be blind to him, yeah, I might not see him. The Holy Spirit in the course of my living maybe. I don't you know, it's just fascinating. Some things will just not be complete until Christ comes.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I once heard also in an interview, I think it was with Piper or somebody, he just talked about something he identified was just um, or maybe he struggled with was just that sometimes sanctification feels painfully slow. Oh, and I think that that's a something we can probably all resonate with. There's like, man, you know, it's those projects that like I really wish I could get to that project.

SPEAKER_02

It's interesting. I understand that, and it resonated with completely. And I've I've said that, you know, sometimes our sanctification is just painfully slow, and we get impatient with but then on the flip side of that, we can be grateful that it's not done in a moment because it would it would we we couldn't take it. We we couldn't bear it. We couldn't bear up to the Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, if you're if uh yeah if you got the whole house, that's uh that's quite the project.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, yeah, yeah, it would be a rebuild. Yeah, good. Uh there's a a good question coming from the congregation that I want to press into. Uh says, since the question was, since our sin died with Christ, and I want to pause there just a moment and so just clarify that. It again, sin didn't die, we died. We've died with Christ. That's the union. And I understand where they're coming from. Absolutely. Since uh our sin died with Christ, what am I to expect on Judgment Day after I die? I think this is a great question, and I'm glad it was asked.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think the person said they've always been fearful of that, you know, topic or whatever. You know, that's something they made a little comment on. Fearful of, yeah, judgment day. Yeah, or just it's just a scary thought. Yeah. Um well, a couple things. So, yeah, so just to press into the beginning of that again. Our identity, our old identity, who we once were, was crucified with Christ. That is the person who we were that stood condemned before God, that under the law, uh, the penalty for our sin is death. When Christ died, we died with him, and that penalty was dealt with. You know, when Jesus said on the cross, it is finished, the payment for our sin was complete through the redemptive work of Christ. We're joined with him now. So part of it, and this is where it's interesting because there's a part of um understanding grace. Grace doesn't have to nullify the justice of God, if that makes sense. God can be fully just and be gracious because sin is our sin is dealt with. Punished. It is punished completely rightly, yeah, fully, fully in Christ. Um so so God can uphold his justice because our sin, the judgment for our sin as believers, yeah, that has already happened. Yep.

SPEAKER_02

And that can only happen in Jesus. It can only happen in Jesus because he was perfect, but he's also God. Yes, he's infinite. Exactly. So he is the perfect sacrifice, the only perfect sacrifice. Yep, the only one who can do it. I couldn't die for your sin. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you could die for your own, but Christ died for us. Yeah. And so the justice of God is upheld. The the um sin has been rightly dealt with, the penalty in Christ. So as believers, we do not have to stand before him one day in the future on the day of judgment, and and have to answer for our answer for our sin. Absolutely. It's already happened in Christ. Um, we don't have to give an account for that sin because that's that's dead, that's been done. We will stand before the judge of all the earth. I, you know, I believe fully, and I think this is consistent with Orthodox Christianity. There's a judgment for the righteous and the unrighteous, but for those in Christ, we give an account for the way that we lived, and it's unto reward. It's it's not a it's not it's a sin judgment. Uh in First Corinthians, Paul talks about this. Is it first Corinthians three? Uh is that the passage with with the five five or the um yeah, those things burn burn up, right? It's the the the wood and the hay and the stumble straw. Yep. Um, so so so when we stand before the judge, the way that we live, serve, it's a judgment unto reward, not to sin.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah, I I heard someone recently say it's not a judgment of uh condemnation, because condemnation has already happened in Christ. It's a judgment for commendation. Yeah, that's good. For reward. Exactly. Um because so when we stand before Jesus at the judgment day, the Bima seat. Correct. Um, it's it's not for salvation because that's already been given to us in Christ. Yeah. And so we no longer have to fear the the gravity of the judgment for our sin.

SPEAKER_00

It's it's already happened. And and Mark just mentioned, you know, the Bima seat. So a lot of people will distinguish between because there is a judge, there's a judgment day that's coming.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

The Bima seat would be the judgment for the righteous unto reward, where the great white throne that your judgment for sin, that's that's not for believers. Yeah. So in Christ, that's that's why we can say there is therefore now no um condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because that's been dealt with. So you know, you can live competently, the person who asked the question, if you're a believer in Christ, to know that you're not going to have to stand before him one day and be fearful of the city.

SPEAKER_02

My sins are not going to come across on the screen for everyone to see because my sins have been paid for in Christ. They've been cast as far as the East is from the West. You know, so far they've been removed from you. So yeah, and it's interesting to think through that and maybe we can press into this. Uh undoubtedly we will in future sermon series and podcasts. But um, obviously at the end of the age, there's different um illustrations of judgment within the scripture. And so you have the shepherd, the sheep, and the goats, and that. Um but again, for uh those who are not believers, the judgment is different than the judgment for the believers. And um their sin will condemn them. Right. And uh the other interesting thing is that is when we see that it will everyone will know that's right. It was just exactly it's like, oh, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00

That's the way it ought to be. I think that that's part of we did I think we did talk about this in the podcast at one point, but it's it's important for people to understand when we think about judgment. One, and I always like to emphasize this, we live in a culture where I think sometimes we you know we overlook like justice is good. You know, judgment, right judgment is needed. And there are places in the world where injustice just reigns. Yeah, right. And it's like these people are probably long for that. But God will do what is right. You know, Abraham says, Shall not the judge of all the earth do that, which is right. We know that God will do what's right, and there are degrees in which that judgment takes place. You know, uh there God will do rightly on that day. And it's based on a variety of factors, but um, he's not gonna get it wrong, is the point. It's gonna be fair, it's gonna be right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And those who are saved are saved by grace, so his grace will be all magnifying, will be yeah. Yeah. But for this person, and I'm not full of the I I got the question. It was a good it's I think it's a great question. Absolutely. Um, that whole thought of of judgment day, not having my sins paraded, that's like, oh, so good. Absolutely. Uh, there's a bit of double jeopardy if if our sins were brought back up. Right. Because Christ has paid for those, I'm no longer under condemnation.

SPEAKER_00

Um well, and that and that was part of my my point too, is it's so funny because as a Christian, the condemnation that we experience as Christians is always self, or others maybe, but it's like we we tend to condemn ourselves when we fall short, and and and you know, we should feel convicted by those things. But ultimately, that's part of why we need to understand like what Christ has done. He has He has dealt with sin that is dealt with, and so um Yeah, we can live with confidence, we can live encouraged.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, even actually living under that day, because the wisdom of living under that day of being with the Lord, not being fearful of judgment, because judgment's already passed, but living to that day actually puts us in a in a in a line of thinking and an attitude and an activity that actually uh would I'm gonna say merit us reward. I mean, we you know we're laying up treasure in heaven. Absolutely. And and so um our works post our salvation will be uh tested by fire, yeah, and there will be rewards given, and um but everyone there is is going to be grateful to God's grace. Absolutely not, yeah. Yep. So with a proper attitude toward that, you're actually living in light of the end, living toward that day, yes, knowing that that our lifetime is so short. Uh on the on a on a you can't do a spectrum of eternity, you just can't because that the spectrum doesn't exist. But our life is just so short, and living for eternity is a is a big motivation to right.

SPEAKER_00

Interesting, even in the passage, because I obviously took a deep dive and you never preach everything you have. But there are and there have always been criticisms of that. If there is grace and if we have no condemnation, well then does that mean that uh being a believer promotes sin? Yeah, right. Go on sinning. Yeah, Paul in Romans obviously says, you know, how we we have been saved from that shall live in it any longer by no means.

SPEAKER_02

And um what was that life earning us? Absolutely. Yeah, where was it taking us?

SPEAKER_00

It's uh Paul says the same thing immediately before attacks, you know. It's like kind of the the pushback was oh, this idea of grace or you know, forgiveness, it's like, well, I guess you can just live in sin. And that's not that's not consistent with what it means to be in Christ. And now that we're in Christ and we have the spirit, the life that we live, you know, we obviously will be rewarded for the things that we do, but that comes from a heart of love and desire and wanting to serve and honor the Lord. And so it's coming from that right place in the heart, you know. So it actually promotes righteous living.

SPEAKER_02

Pressing just even a little further in the book of Galatians, I mean, obviously, we're talking about the union with Christ and in Galatians 2 20 of being crucified and raised to new life and in union with him. Pulling back even a little further, Paul is obviously writing the letter to the Galatians. Yes. And he's coming down hard on them because they had heard the gospel, had placed their faith in Jesus, but were being taught and tempted to return to the law. Yeah. And so he's really. He's really pressing in on them and and making the correction. Uh, anyway, we might think that through as we encounter um believers today who are being tempted and pressed in that same way.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um, for sure.

SPEAKER_02

I think that that's a that's probably one of the And it might be a little different between church members that we're in proximity to and accountable to. And and brothers and sisters in Christ that are outside of our own church community, yeah, that uh we sense our are leaning back on top of the.

SPEAKER_00

You know what's interesting about that? I didn't really put a ton of thought into this, but sure. Um the and there's some debate, I guess, about who exactly the Galatians were, but I mean I I kind of leaned into, I think, with the predominant view is is it's that kind of the um because there's different two different regions, right? There's the northern and southern view of yeah, anyways, it doesn't matter. But um I I really believe this is between Paul's first and second missionary journey. I do too. Before before uh Acts 15, before the Jerusalem Council.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. And these are the churches he planted that he's ready to correct. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

So these are baby Christians, yeah, new new believers, one to two-year-old church. Um and what's interesting is that there no doubt were some people who were part of that congregation who came from a Jewish background. There were synagogues when Paul went and passed through that area. Um, Timothy was from that area, I think. Yes. So he would have a Jewish lineage. So certainly there are people who were Jewish, but a lot of the studying I did, you know, talked about the fact that there's a large percentage that were Gentiles, very large percentage. So what's interesting is you you have some people who are returning to a law that they used to live under. Yep. And you have some people who are baby Christians new to this. Being wrongly educated. Yeah, because when Paul traveled through the area and his first missionary journey, there are people who thought he was, was it Zeus and Hermes? These are pagan people who are now being educated in the way of following Jesus, which Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, he's also the Messiah for the world, and now they're beginning to be instructed that they need to add these things that weren't even part of their paradigm before. Yeah. So just as an illustration, you know, it's interesting in the church you have kind of the same thing. You have some people who maybe grew up in a more legalistic background, yeah, maybe came to faith in Christ, and it's part of its understanding what what aspects of that do I, you know, how do I operate? And there are some people who are brand new to the Christian faith and they're hearing about this and they show up in a church and they're like, oh, what do you mean I can't?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, XYZ.

SPEAKER_00

XYZ. Yeah. And it begins to be a challenge. And I think, you know, ultimately we could talk about this forever. I do think, you know, when Paul says he died to the law, I don't think we're under the Mosaic law. I think the law has come to its consummated end fulfillment in Christ. In Jesus. But it doesn't mean that the law just can be thrown away. I don't think the law is no longer uh relevant. I think there is a living out this law of Christ, yeah, um, which is, you know, can be really, I think, summarized by loving God and loving neighbor. Yeah. And so there are certainly things that we need to obey and ways we need to live today, and and those are things we need to do, but we need to do it in a way that we understand rightly that the gospel is what saves us. And um, anytime we turn back to the law to try to justify ourselves or earn something, we err. Yeah. And so um, you know, I live a new life under grace in Christ, and so that's kind of, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Last last week I mentioned uh at the beginning of this podcast, I was on vacation and we went to a Christian family camp. And uh they bring in a Bible uh preacher for the entire week and a missions emphasis. Uh the Bible preacher for the entire week dealt the uh dealt the entire week, all of his sermons were on the uh the five offerings out of the book of Leviticus. Oh, yeah. Which it was a great study, it was a great series. Um But can you imagine, you know, and and he he did a great job looking at the five offerings of the book of Leviticus and how they pointed to Jesus. That's wonderful. So the law leads us to Christ. Exactly. And so can you imagine in Galatia or even today, um, you know, the Jews who had had those practices for centuries now saying, well, we need to go back and do those. And literally they are designed to point us to Jesus who is the fulfillment. Which is part of what Paul's like, don't go back there. Why would we pointing to Christ, the crisis comes?

SPEAKER_00

And that's part of what I try to talk about in the beginning of the message when I talk about some of the purposes of the law. You know, it's it gives us this knowledge of sin. The law leads us to Jesus. It's um that schoolmaster or guardian that leads us to Christ, and um and the law condemns and and who we once were under that law is dead and gone.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, good. Well, we probably ought to wrap this up. This has been a good, good, good conversation, good study, uh, good, good series. Uh, where are we we where are we heading the Sunday? Can we get at least a verse or don't want to put the cards on the table?

SPEAKER_00

It's gonna be. I don't know if I can give you that answer yet. So I have some thoughts. We're we're there's gonna be a little more of a uh missions focus. I'll just say that. Okay. And so we might we might do some things that are a little bit unique for the series, maybe a little um uh yeah. Okay, maybe revelation somewhere. I don't know. I'm still working working that out. Okay. So but it is a continuation, it's a continuation of the series, yes. We have a little bit of a different emphasis, and there's reason for that. Yeah, excellent.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, well, look forward to Sunday. I'm looking forward to the next next step in the series.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. Well, hey Mark, this has been a great conversation, everybody. Thanks for joining us, and uh, we hope to see you next time on After the Amen.