What its actually like in the Minor Leagues and making dreams a reality! Ep 10. Live at the Show

On today's episode, Jake and Rem got the opportunity to sit down with Chad Pinder, current White Sox Triple A manager and Aaron Bray, current hitting coach for the Charlotte Knights! They sit down to talk about what its like to actually play in the Minor Leagues and even share some inside knowledge of what is like to work these young superstars. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Lady was like, I just watched you guys play. She was flying from Nashville to Charlotte. She's like, you don't fly charter?

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Triple A man. We fly in private on this little lipstick tube, like 35 dudes just like this.

SPEAKER_03 0:14

It's not all, you know, what people think it is sometimes in the Matter Legs. Teams are looking for guys that are good that have nowhere to go. And ultimately us as humans, we want to have some type of control. And baseball's not ever gonna allow that. And I want to move the bat fast, I want to throw it harder.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

Well, like, but you don't want to go to the gym, high school or college. Like if we saw someone throwing mid-90s, it was like, dude, I mean, that's a rap. Like that's a wrap.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

All right, welcome back to Live at the Show. Uh, thank you for listening once again. We're excited about today's show with Chad Pender, former big leaguer um manager for the Chicago White Sox AAA here in Charlotte, North Carolina. Aaron Bray, uh former professional baseball player as well, and uh heading coach for the Charlotte Knights. And always, as always, Zach Remelard, thank you for being here today.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

I get paid to be here.

SPEAKER_03 1:07

So uh we're gonna dive in. We got a lot to talk about. Um, first of all, welcome, appreciate you. Uh Virginia Tech to professional baseball. Do you ever somebody asked me last night at the game, do you wish that you would have gone to college? Because I signed out of high school. Are you glad you went to college?

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Yeah, I I mean I was probably 155, 160 pounds sucking wet coming out of high school. Uh so I mean I didn't I didn't really have the option, but I am very glad that I went. Um was able to grow as a player, get bigger, um, get faster, a little bit stronger. Um, but yeah, I I needed it. I was a guy that definitely needed to go to college.

SPEAKER_03 1:48

Gotcha. How about you, Aaron?

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Same. I was a buck fifty-five, I think, coming out of high school. Um, I think if I had to choose all over again, I would choose college over Pro Bowl.

SPEAKER_06 2:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Maybe not in today's world though, with Pro Ball, but definitely the Pro Bowl that I played in, I would choose college over it. I enjoyed my four years.

SPEAKER_03 2:08

I'm the minority uh getting drafted out of high school. It's actually Toby Bicknell, who's the recruiting coordinator at Charlotte, was asking me, he's like, Do you wish you would have gone to college? And you just don't know. I mean, you could get in trouble being in college. You can also have some great experiences as Zach shared on the show. Uh, winning the national championship at Coastal Carolina was obviously you know great. My whole as a kid, I wanted to play, I wanted to play professional baseball. And I just wonder if you know if things how things would have changed. Um, I'm thankful uh for kind of where professional baseball has led me in developing amateur the youth sports, right? You guys have gotten back into coaching, obviously, with the in triple at the triple A level, one step away from the big leagues. Um is it everything you thought it was gonna be so far?

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Yeah, it is. Um but I think to your point, like what you learned in Pro Bowl, you wanted to give to the youth. Uh like I'm in the same boat, like everything I learned along the way in in the minor leagues and and and then the major leagues, like if you can give them the answers to the test before they go through it, like that's I think that's part of our role. Um so that's the main reason. Like, I I'm with you on that, like any way possible, whether you leave from high school and you learn in Pro Ball or you go to college and you learn there, like there's something you can give back to to the next generation of player.

SPEAKER_03 3:29

Is it uh or do you find yourself because obviously triple A hitters they're really good hitters, right? Sometimes they can hit better than a guy that's in the lineup at the big league level, but they're not as good defensively, or or vice versa. I mean, they're they're quality players. Um, so when you're coaching them, it's a little bit different. Sometimes it's mental, I assume. Like, what's your approach, Aaron, when you're when you're teaching hitters, coaching hitters, developing hitters at that level?

SPEAKER_01 3:57

It's definitely different. I mean, I've I've spent time at every level just about so far in Pro Bowl in my short five-year career. And this has by far probably been like the easiest to the point of like these guys know what they need to do on a daily basis. It's not a thousand swings, but like you go to the lower level, and it's like I gotta hit, hit, hit, hit to fix whatever is going on.

SPEAKER_06 4:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Um, I think this right here to me, it's more of like the cat and mouse game of the game, where it's like game planning's got to be a little bit better, in my opinion, based off like what we saw last night, especially. Um, but the mechanical stuff has been like really easy with these guys. It's just like getting them locked in from an approach standpoint.

SPEAKER_03 4:39

Yeah, Zach and I we talked about on the show, you know, there's some days you show up to the ballpark and you need those extra swings, and there's some days like you're going well, and you shouldn't, you don't swing your way out of the good swing, right? Um we talked about that many times on the show, and and the the mental part, the uh versus the physical part. Are you is it daily adjustments? Is it sometimes just hey, you're going good, keep going. What do you face the mental part a lot?

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Um, I would probably say in this short series or short season, we have faced more mental than physical, in my opinion. Um, and we're getting through it with some guys, which has been good. Um, but yeah, it's more like the guys that feel like they're in a good spot. Like, I'm not touching them saying I think you need to do this. Like, no, let's stay the course and go. And the guys that need a little bit of loving, it's like, let's figure it out and get you on the course where I don't have to nudge you every day. Right. And we got something we can do.

SPEAKER_03 5:33

Have a short memory, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 5:35

Um, so what's something about coaching in the minor leagues that people like completely underestimate? When they show up to the ballpark, a lot of it's entertainment now, right? So you have the athletes on the field, they're performing, they're wanting to get to the big leagues, and then you have people showing up to the field that want to be entertained.

SPEAKER_05 5:55

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 5:55

And we talked about banana ball with the versus you know professional baseball, and I don't think they're trying to compete with each other, but um what's something that the fan, the average fan underestimates when they show up to the ballpark?

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Well, I'll tell you this this story happened on Sunday when we flew out of Nashville. Lady was like, I just watched you guys play. She was flying from Nashville to Charlotte. She's like, You don't fly charter? Not AAA, ma'am.

SPEAKER_03 6:19

If I had a nickel for every time I woke up at 3 a.m. for that 5 30 flight, I will say, those days are over, dude.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

Are they? Yes. They are. Oh, because you have the longer. We have the Monday off. We uh we were talking about that in in Nashville when I was there in 16 um Southwest, like something happened with their computer system one week and everything went down. So we had a flight from Phoenix, we were going Albuquerque, Phoenix to Nashville for a night game. Uh we played that day, and they um canceled, canceled, canceled. It's at like 3:30 in the morning. We're just laying in Phoenix Airport, and uh got to the point they were like, hey, you're gonna go. Um you got if you live in Phoenix, you can go to your house and rest, and then we're gonna just we're gonna get on a flight at like three, they're gonna have to cancel the game. So we had guys leave not an hour later, they're texting us, everyone needs to get back here. Nashville has chartered a flight. Um, they are flying you in, and we are playing this game. They can't they push the game back to like 9 30. We fly in private on this little lipstick tube, like 35 dudes just like this. Show up, land at like 8:30, bus, we get there, we're walking through the concourse while the fans are in there. They're like, you got 30 minutes to get ready and go play. And we ended up like walking off in the ninth. It was that is minor league travel. Or what is minor league travel?

SPEAKER_03 7:47

That kind of leads me to my, I was about to ask, like, what separates the guys who make it from the guys who don't? And uh the at the amateur level, we're looking for like, is it in the kids' heart to play?

SPEAKER_05 7:56

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:57

But even at that level, like, is is this in my heart to do this? Because there's the minor leagues is a grind all the time. Um, Zach, you played up through the minor leagues all the way to the big leagues in 23 and 24 at the White Sox. Do you have a crazy story you want to share?

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Um, not off the top of my head. I mean, we've had plenty. I remember in A Ball, um, everyone would get, um, and this is before they went to the new the new way of scheduling, but everyone would get a July 3rd and a July 4th game. And for some reason that year, our July 3rd game was in Greensboro, North Carolina, so 45 minutes up the road from Canapolis. And our July 4th game was in Lakewood, New Jersey the following evening. Uh 12 and a half hour bus ride through the night. So uh yeah, we we've definitely experienced a different minor leagues, and to be honest, like it's still happening in Mexico. Went to Mexico last year for about a month. That's that's grindy stuff. That's that's a league that that travels. Um, so I'm glad to see it be the way it is now, but man, there's a different generation of um of blue collar out there that played in the minor leagues while it is even cannapolis, sorry. Last year, when we were in Canapolis, man, we were in a shed, the locker room. It was it was a grind. We were in the middle of nowhere.

SPEAKER_03 9:15

Yeah, we find ourselves, I was an A-ball at the Yankees in in uh 97, and we found ourselves in Macon, finished the game at uh 11 o'clock at night, on the bus at 12, halfway back to Greensboro. Our bus breaks down, and they finally get somebody there at like 5:30 in the morning. We roll into Greensboro at like 10.30, and our manager said, Hey, you got an hour and a half because we have a three o'clock game in Canapolis. Go get something to eat and come back. We played, we got to the Canapolis and had a full BP, full stretch, throw, BP, shag, and then played that night, and then drove back to for that was just a one-game set. So it's not all, you know, what people think it is sometimes in the minor leagues. So having it in your heart that this is what you want to do, right, is is crucial. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:58

Right.

SPEAKER_03 9:59

And you can't measure the heart, obviously. Um, so let's jump to, you know, how do you handle failure? Because sometimes you're exhausted and you gotta go perform. You gotta figure it out, right? How do how do guys handle failure um when the game's built on failure? Like, how do you do that?

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Yeah, the the biggest thing I say, and is you just gotta keep showing up. Like, um one thing that always rang in my head when I was going through struggles was something my dad would say, is like, it's not what you do, it's what you do after. Like, it's what you do after. So that 0 for 4, the next day, 3 for 4, the next day 0 for 4, like that's just baseball. Like, you just keep showing up. Like you can't quantify the crazy that it takes to be a player at that level and to keep showing up and to keep getting pounded down and to keep keep staying on your routine. And obviously, if it's mechanical, there are things that you gotta do, but for the most part, like at least we say as hitters, like, y'all aren't getting us out, we're getting ourselves out, right? Like, like we're giving away a lot of the bats, like we're chasing, like that's not a mechanical breakdown. Like, your swing's great, but you're swinging at balls, you're swinging at pitches in the dirt. Like, where is that mindset shift? So for me, it's like, can you bounce back? Like, can you be resilient? And it ultimately it's just like just keep showing up, like be consistent, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

There's like a common belief, like a misconception that when you are in struggle, that it's like something is wrong and it's not baseball anymore, but it's like that very much is baseball, like being in process to where you feel like something is off, like it might be like to get you back like on a good track, but that part of baseball where you feel lost, like the reason you have an opportunity in this game is because that exists. Like, if that didn't exist, then like me personally or and probably you like we wouldn't be the guys playing in the big leagues because like there's better players and more talented players, but it's like the fact that that place exists and there's an element of perseverance to playing the game, like gives us an opportunity to play at the highest level. If this was the NBA, like you're not gonna find me there, you know what I mean? Right. But you give me a chance in that.

SPEAKER_03 12:25

So you we talked routine after an 0 for 4 versus a 3 for 4 day. Um, and follow it up with do you feel like confidence, did your confidence ever disappear as a player? Do you see confidence disappear in the guys you're coaching now? And and how do you get that back, Aaron?

SPEAKER_01 12:41

I think I think you we have not experienced that quite yet this year. I do think lower levels it happens because I think a lot of those guys aren't used to struggling. High school draft picks, even college guys, like they don't understand they've been so successful, and then once they get there, it's like, oh crap, like this is hard. So um I think at some point, like we're not playing hitting coach anymore, we're playing psychiatrist. But again, I I'll piggyback off, Chad. Like the culture that we have in our locker room built by him is like, yeah, we're gonna show up every day, it's a new day, like let's get to work and figure out what's going on, or if it's like just stay the course. That's something I've used over the last couple of days with some of these guys. It's like, dude, just stay the course. Right. And how do you get out of it? I don't know. Like, if I if we had that answer, like we wouldn't need facilities. We would just be on phone calls with people and be like, hey, here you go. Like you're fixed, go play, you know. Um, if it were that easy, but everybody's different too. And I think like these guys in triple A, like we do have some prospects up there, but we have guys that have big league time, and I think they understand, like, hey, I struggled in A-ball, like I know that it's gonna I it's something's gonna change at some point, I just have to keep going. Yeah, so like that would be my advice like keep going.

SPEAKER_03 13:58

I remember just the story just came to me, I'd totally forgotten until now. Um, we were playing in Scranton, it was the Phillies then. Um I was in Richmond with the Braves. Uh we played 13 innings and I threw the last four one night and had a successful you know outing. I think it was four run, four innings, no runs, and we got the win. But in that process, I hit uh their four hitter in the head. And he had been oh for like the last 15, and the next night he goes four for four and hits two bombs, and the next night he goes three. So my manager was Carlos Tosca, loved him, like had a great time playing for Carlos. You might have come Carlos from the past, but anyway, um he was like, Have you ever heard of uh waking a sleeping dog? And I was like, Yeah, so like getting hit sometimes can be your your best thing, just kind of wake you up, or that duck fart that drops in the right field that because you've hit lasers at the shortstop or the center fielder, you just need something to go your way, and it's I think that positive mindset, and when you show up every day consistently, when that happens and all of a sudden everything starts falling for you, right? So, what's something that both of you agree on on that mental side that young players completely miss?

SPEAKER_02 15:09

I d I don't know about you on this, but I I think there is a massive misconception on what success is in the game as a hitter is. I would agree from the from the young side. And I I saw it last year in Canapolis, I saw it with a lot of the young guys, like not being able to like take their single and be okay, like hey, nitpicking every little thing. It's like I I can't hit the ball in the air. I'm like, dude, you just hit it 105 in the forehole for a single. Like you'll never let yourself build like confidence and and and the ability to like keep going if you keep just nailing yourself because it wasn't the perfect swing, it wasn't the perfect launch angle, it wasn't the perfect exit VLO. Like, dude, a knocks and knock, something went right there. Your path was right. You're like, yeah, you may have been a little late, but something was right.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Correct. So I would agree. I think it goes both ways, where it's like not being able to take your knocks when you get them and being um not satisfied with like how you felt. And I think it goes the other way where it's like I hit a ball 105 at 30 and the wind knocked it down. Like, though, what else can I do? It's like, dude, that's what you're supposed to do. Right. Like they're supposed to catch the ball when you hit it. Like, be okay with it. Either way, whether it's a duck fart or a missile, like I think that's the they guys struggle with that. It's like, how am I supposed to like do something? Well, I need to do something different. Like, no, dude, that's they even out. Like the duck fart evens out with the missile you hit the center field. Like, that's the game of baseball. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Unfortunately. Oh, sorry. Um, I think there's a giant misconception when like self-projecting on the gap between them and the big leagues. I think that they see something and assume something, um, because I did the same thing, but you very much deal with the exact same thing on a bigger stage, which is why the big leagues is so difficult. It's the best in the world. Like that feeling of being lost that comes more often because you're you're at the highest level of competition. But when guys think that they have to be perfect and feel good and be at their best all the time, it's like the reality is you're probably gonna have your A swing a small percentage of the time. You're probably gonna live your season in the B swing, and you're gonna have to deal with the C swing as much as the A swing. So it's like, how can I compete at a high level with the car I'm driving in that season? Because if I'm more focused on being somewhere I'm not, then I'm gonna find myself like spiraling even more. And that's where guys honestly get lost and they stay where you lose your season. Yeah, yeah, it gets away from you. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 17:52

Yeah, Andy Pettis said, I'm gonna make 30 starts this year. Six of them, I'm gonna feel amazing. I'm gonna have every pitch in my tool bag, and I'm gonna nobody's gonna hit me. Six, I'm gonna get absolutely crushed, is what I do with the the middle eighteen that kind of makes or breaks my season. Um, is there a training method that you swear by that most players don't do? Is there something that you would do as a player that if you're like everybody should be doing this? I feel like I'm the only one doing it. Like, where do you gather the confidence from, or where do you gather the the ability from?

SPEAKER_01 18:22

I mean, I I think it's opposite. Like, I wish it was something that we had when I was playing.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Um, our guys, and and what we value is like the training aspect. Like, I have no issues with our guys coming in, whether it's their early cage time, the pregame stuff, like we get the eye pitch going, or we have two machines going, and they're in there, and I mean, I sit there in the morning and I put the put the pitcher together, it doesn't look fun. Like it's oh, ride cut today, sinker today, big sweeper, and it's and they challenge. Like, we didn't have that when I was growing up. Like you never saw a machine roll out to a field when I was playing professional baseball.

SPEAKER_06 19:03

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

It would show up at 3:30, three groups, arm, some ground balls, play the game. Um, so I think it's like vice versa, where I wish we had that when I was playing. And our guys are tremendous at it. Our org is tremendous at it.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

I'm gonna go the opposite direction. Okay. Um I definitely wish I had eye pitch, and I definitely wish I had traject. Traject would be nice.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

Um that would be nice.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

I don't see uh for me, it's T-work. Like, I I don't see a lot of guys do that anymore. Um like working on your contact points and like holding a balance swing, and um I'm not saying overdo it, right? Like, but I I think that's missing. Like the best hitter I ever played with, pure hitter Jed Lowry, like his T routine was like art, like it was amazing. Like it was the same thing every day from the left side, from the right side. He'd move the ball around about his contact points, it was balanced, it was like, and it was I mean, it was unbelievable. And like it was the same swing every single day, it was the same routine every single day. Didn't matter if he was 0 for 4, didn't matter if he was three for four. Same routine every single day. He barreled the ball up more than anybody I played with. He's consistent, very consistent, and that's all you want to be in this game. Like you don't want to be this guy that that just waxes and wanes and waxes. I mean, that's a roller coaster. Like the guy that can just do this all year long and hover, like that's the guy after 162. You're like, man, that's a really good season. Like it made one year, I think almost 50 doubles, like almost 20 homers, and that's like when he was healthy, like I could really hit.

SPEAKER_03 20:50

This might be a crazy take, but I feel like that's what Aaron Judge is doing now. Like he's he is okay with the amount of strikeouts because he got he knows if he stays with his approach, he's gonna end up with 60 bombs at the end of the year, he's gonna end up hitting 300, he's he's just staying consistent, and the fan hates that, right? The fan hates the lack of adjustability and the swing and a two-strike count, but that's not his role. Do you see that? Does that is that more of that coming to the game because of technology and the metrics and being there's a there's a good consistency, but then in some times like the WBC, we see the Latin guys making adjustments in their swings in that tournament style play versus this 162-game season that I know if I'm Jed Lowry, if I'm Aaron Judge, no matter who I am, if I stick to my approach and I'm consistent in that approach, I know what's gonna be there at the end of the year.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

End of the year, yeah. And I think like totally. And that it's hard to keep people happy, right? Like as a fan, they have uh the right to want the success and want the adjustment right now, but I don't think anybody that is a Yankees fan is complaining after 162. With Aaron Judge, right? They're not looking at the strikeout numbers. They're looking at the production, the consistent MVP conversation.

SPEAKER_03 22:09

Like they'll complain in April, but are pitchers ahead of hitters at the beginning of the year, or is it just spring training? Do you guys are you? I don't buy it. Well, you don't buy it.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Okay, good. So I would probably buy into that statement 10, 12, 15 years ago.

SPEAKER_03 22:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

But when you look at facilities like this that are all across the country, guys are getting, like, I don't think this is an exaggeration. Guys are getting like 150 in the wintertime as far as that bats.

SPEAKER_06 22:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

With all the lives going on.

SPEAKER_06 22:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

Like, guys are showing up to spring training like out the shoot, ready to go. And then it's funny because I've had this conversation before where I feel like there's a regression toward for some of these guys at the end of spring training. Like they're going into the season through that like mid-season regression because they've had so many at bats already. But like when I was playing, when you guys first got in, it was like you probably came to this facility, hit off the T, saw some arm, and then you left. Yeah, you went to spring training. There was nobody throwing lives. Everybody did that at spring training. Everybody shows up ready to spring training.

SPEAKER_03 23:16

Dude, I watched Tom Glavin, he couldn't break a pane of glass his first three weeks of camp, topping out at 75, and obviously he knew he was on the team, and he would use spring training as his six weeks to get ready. Right? He wasn't coming there to get out. I mean he would give up 15 runs in the first three starts, and then he would be Tom Glavin, right? Oh good.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

I remember every year I get to spring training at the beginning. I would see like my first live, and I'd be like, this is 160. And I don't know how I'm ever gonna do this again. Like maybe it's maybe that's like maybe last year was my last year because like I'm I can't even see that right now. But like as like once I got closer to the back end of my career, like the last few years, it was like I would show up and like a 92, 94 mile hour fastball would look like BP because you're just training like VLO all off season and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 24:09

So training is definitely and development has definitely definitely um rapidly increased um the game. It's it's crazy, right? Um, but as you say, they're kind of we're kind of getting away from the T work that drives consistency because you can turn the machine up. I mean, we have eighth and ninth graders in here off the machine hitting 90 miles an hour at 45 feet, and it doesn't matter to them anymore. We watched Jacob Reynolds last night, Mark Reynolds, longtime big leaguer son, he's playing with Charlotte Christian, he's facing a guy throwing 90-91, and he doesn't care. They hit the ball at the left center field wall at 400 feet. And you're like, how does that happen as a sophomore in high school? Yeah, he doesn't they don't care about Velo anymore because they see it all the time.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

Nowhere. Yeah, that's it's amazing what what the kids these days, like what they can do and how they handle velocity. I don't know about you, dude, but like when I wouldn't even high school or college, like if we saw someone throwing mid-90s, it was like, dude, I mean that's a rap. Like that's a rap.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

When you when you literally Sunday start like at coastal, like most Sunday guys, like, dang, we're gonna get that 83 mine on our left tomorrow. And we're gonna score one run one run and get in big trouble. But um, like now it's like your tenth guy out of the bullpen is 93, 94, and maybe can't fill it up, but like these guys like top to bottom, like even like throwing some guys on blast in here, like blast motion, like they're bad, like they swing faster than I do, and they're like 16 years old, so it's like yeah, I'm gonna coach.

SPEAKER_03 25:46

Yeah, I think there's been close to 300 guys at the college level, D1 level 95 or better on the mound this year. It's insane. It's wild. Um, so player development has changed over the years. Are are we overcomplic complicating it at all?

SPEAKER_02 26:02

I don't think, and I'll I'll let you go on this, but there is like with that, with the training and with the uh the the kids are much more skilled, right? Like you you, I'm sure you do it with your infielders, like the hand work and the hand routine and and the the hitting and being okay with velocity. Um there is a little bit lost in the teaching of the game, the nuances, the like having to teach kids in Canapolis last year where to line up on a double cut, having to teach kids uh just at the pro level, yeah. And you see it in college, clip that. Please clip that at the amateur level.

SPEAKER_03 26:42

You got 13-year-old coaches like my guy I don't know a double cut, or high school coaches. Yeah, who have you been playing for? You don't and so how do they get the big level care?

SPEAKER_02 26:49

So it's gotta start you know at the beginning. So that the teaching of that is so critical. Like the salve, the granted now at the big level they have pitchcom, they don't have it in the minor leagues, but like shortstop, looking in and peeking at the catcher signs to see if a breaking ball's coming. Kids don't do that anymore. Like like I had a guy tell me, he's like, wait, you you you you look in at the catcher's signs, and I was like, you don't want to know what pitch is coming playing in the infield? I stole every base my whole career of seeing the catcher signs at first. Those little things, like, yes, the everyone is so much further along at their age than I was, certainly from a skilled standpoint, but the knowledge of the game, like, I do see some of that getting lost, like in that in the weeds.

SPEAKER_03 27:40

I just want to hit it agree. 100 plus, I just want to throw it a hundred plus, I just want to do it.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

You probably run into it in the hitters meetings with like you're giving these scouting reports and you're trying to give like talks on approach and like game planning and like what we can do with this guy and his strengths and weaknesses, and everyone's like, my hand position's too high. And it's like, guys, like there's another component of this game that like when you go up, like even at that level, it's like they it's like the biggest hurdle that I've found for all of the like baseball IQ stuff, the scouting report, the details, is like it's not being valued by the player. And if you don't care, then you don't buy in. So it's like how the only way it's gonna change is if kids actually believe it matters, and it really does. Whether they think it does or doesn't, it really does matter. Yeah, but I still haven't found an effective way to convince a kid that, like, hey, playing the game, like doing the job, knowing where to go, knowing where your teammates are, like internal clock, making decisions. That's the fun part of the game. Throw hard, jump high, and like, yeah. And it I I miss that, like what I miss most about baseball isn't hitting a homer. I miss like sliding on a ground ball up the middle with a guy on second, two outs, getting up, knowing I have no play at first, and before he touches third base, throwing behind the runner. Like, that's what I miss.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Yeah, that's the one thing. Like, I don't think the development has been a bad thing. I think what hitters had to do to combat what pitching's done. Right. Like we saw that spike in strikeouts a few years ago. Right. And I think like it's helped with what we can do, but I will a thousand percent with Chad, like the nuances of the game are just lost. Yeah, and I don't know like where that's coming from or why. I mean, I I have my thoughts that I probably won't say on here. At a level, kids don't watch the game enough. No, I think that's a big issue.

SPEAKER_03 29:39

And and when I was playing, I didn't watch the game enough while you know while I was in Pro Bowl. I probably should have watched it more, but I've surely had the game on every single day as a kid. I had the TV on watching the game. Because there's so much you can learn. So you talk about the nuances of game, um, picking up pitchers tipping pitches, whether it's the finger coming up or it sets his glove lower or higher, or you know, do the do kids get that at all anymore? They I think we're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Our guys are definitely aware.

SPEAKER_03 30:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

I will say that.

SPEAKER_03 30:13

Yeah. Um being able to work. It's tough because you know, you obviously you're locked in when you're hitting. You're probably locked in when you're on deck, and hopefully you are when you're in the hole. But when you're six, seven hitters away, the ability to really focus for three hours, two and a half to three hours, and watch the game, how the pitcher's moving, what he's throwing, those types of things, how he's setting, you know, how defenses are setting up. And that's one of my questions later on is do you think the you know the shift has gone away? Is that helping the game, hurting the game? Do you think that should even be a rule? I think defenders should be able to stand wherever they want to stand. You know what I mean? So, like, are they what the ability to watch the game when I'm not the one swinging, when I'm not the one throwing. I always tell kids I think the two hardest things to do in baseball are be an outfielder, prep step, be ready to make a play and never get a ball for 120 pitches. And then um as a hitter, I've got to be in, I've got to start my swing every single pitch, whether I swing or not. Like it's gotta start because once you get to let's call it 85, 88 miles an hour, if you don't start your swing, you're you can't wait to see if it's something you want to swing at, then go. Yeah. Those are the mental that that's that's mental. It's like intention.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

You have an intention. Like I haven't I am intending on making this play.

SPEAKER_03 31:31

The anticipation, the expectation in the moment, right? So it has today's tech, um obviously it's helped the game. I think in some ways it, you know, it's I don't want to say it's hurt it, it hasn't hurt it, it's helped the game. Would it have changed your career if we had this information when you were playing? Yeah. And and and you know, you're you haven't been out of very long, you don't have been out very long, but even in the last three, four years it's increased with the information these kids are getting.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

No doubt. The traject. Like yeah, traject's amazing. Like I didn't play every day, right? Like I I came off the bench a ton to be able to go up in the cage and take five at bats off the guy that I'm about to go face.

SPEAKER_03 32:11

Like oh man. You're talking about five at bats in like that's not like less than that's that should be illegal. Like you can't see me five times before I'm gonna face you. No kidding, dude. It's it's crazy. Um, so you guys um you know obviously the game's important, how guys are playing important, wins are important, and I think the something that's lost on people is the clubhouse is important, the culture, right? You're being a good teammate. Uh we were talking about it before we came on the show. You know, a kid goes four for four and he's you know high on himself, but we lost that night, right? And how you handle yourself in that moment, or or we won tonight and I went 0 for 4, or we won tonight and I didn't pitch real well, wasn't happy with my outing, but we still won. Do you face that in at the triple A level? Are guys really wanting to win, compete? Like Yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

I yeah, I the the expectations that were set by this man right here, like that is the vibe in our in our clubhouse. Guys want to win. You can tell. I mean, we have guys who have big league time last night in the seventh inning, game got away from us a little bit, and they were like, these at bats matter. Let's go. Like, there's a lot of game left. And it's not just one, it's like three or four guys. And so I think that that is just like the way you handle everything inside the clubhouse and the way you want things as a manager and as a staff to be in here, like that breathes what's gonna happen. Right. And like so far, that's the way it's been bred in our in our clubhouse.

SPEAKER_03 33:44

I I love the saying the way I do anything is the way I should do everything. And that that's that's the culture that we want. And culture is important. Zach, you want to speak to that?

SPEAKER_00 33:53

I mean, yeah, I think it's also like what you desperately need it, especially in the minor leagues. It's like it's very organic in the big leagues because like the pressure comes from championships. But like in the minor leagues, like even creating the appearance that winning matters and like a locker room and a culture where it's like picking up your team matters when it really like ultimately might not, and it does, but does it? It's like having that mindset is ultimately going to serve and benefit you personally and collectively because it's a long season. And as soon as you lose that, and winning doesn't matter, and it's all for me, it gets way longer.

SPEAKER_03 34:31

You can't play this game on an island, that's for sure. Um, who's the toughest pitcher you guys faced?

SPEAKER_02 34:40

Oh man. I mean most uncomfortable at that was probably Dylan Batansis.

SPEAKER_03 34:46

Okay, because you didn't know where he didn't know where it was going.

SPEAKER_02 34:48

Oh man, something you didn't know where was going on. But my I had little to no success against Chris Sale. And I had zero success against Dylan Bundy.

SPEAKER_03 34:59

Okay, Dylan Bundy. That's a name I hadn't thought about in a while. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:02

What what what made him tough? I just could not pick up his break and ball, and like I was a breaking ball hitter. I was a guy that like I was hunting some of those pitches.

SPEAKER_04 35:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:11

Um if they fell into a pattern, if they like I love sitting breaking ball. And if I couldn't see it, I was in trouble. And man, he had one year where he was like, he was lights out with the angels. Um and then the following year he had he he struggled a little bit, um, but not against me. Like our team was they they hit him around and it was just it was a baked in 0 for four with three punch outs. Like the I think I was 0 for 10. I know I was 0 for 10 with like eight strikeouts against them.

SPEAKER_03 35:40

Gotcha. Do you have a welcome to moment Pro Bowl experience that you'll never forget? Like, welcome to Pro Bowl. This just happened.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

Um God, what what would that be? I don't know. Just maybe like the culture shock.

SPEAKER_03 35:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

I mean, being from Charlotte, playing college baseball in Charlotte, and then going to Greenville, Tennessee.

SPEAKER_03 36:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

And then being around guys from all over.

SPEAKER_03 36:07

I can't imagine playing as some of these towns that the minor leagues, you know, as you cross through the minor leagues, whether it's Johnson City, whether it's Greensboro, Greenville, or Kinston, and you're a Dominican or you're a Venezuelan or you're Puerto Rico or Mexico. Like you come and you're like, that that experience in itself, like if you can grind that out, right? Um one of my favorite experiences in Pro Bowl is when I went to Puerto Rico to play winter ball. And when I went to Mexico to play winter ball. Like it, there's a big world out there. Huge world. A huge world, and where there's different cultures, there's you know, different languages, and and it's a beautiful thing. I mean, God created it. It's a beautiful thing, and and and you know, it's almost it's difficult to explain some sometimes to people who haven't experienced those um opportunities, you know, in the game of baseball, or just opportunities to to get out outside of your comfort zone. Um one thing we talk about here is we always want to don't try to control the uncontrollables, just control the controllables, right? And um, and obviously we talk about being consistent. You we can't control baseball, but parents are gonna try to. You know, um, and and ultimately us as humans, we want to have some type of control, and and baseball's not ever gonna allow that. It's become a sprint instead of a marathon at the amateur level, and probably just humanity. I talk about it all the time. People want to eat McDonald's because you can get it now, but in baseball doesn't provide that. Um how how can you pass that along to no matter how old the player is, you know, control the controllables, stay consistent, and you know take one day at a time. How do you do that? Because I I loved your message to your team at the beginning of the year already. Like, how do you do that? You know, is it is it just by your actions, not really your words?

SPEAKER_02 38:00

You know, it's tough, man. I mean, like you said earlier, you gotta touch like you there's gotta be buy-in, right? Like there's gotta be worth to the player with what you say, right? Like, and then we can say control the controllables, you know, leave the uncontrollables away, but like relationships. Yeah, yeah, it's very much relationship driven. Um if you want to play this game and you want to play it for a long time, like you have to understand there that you have to have an understanding of like exactly what you just said. Like, it is not a get it now, like this is a marathon. Like I tell the guys last year in Lower, like, look, like you are at the beginning of a full marathon, and you really have just left the starting line. Like, and along this way, like this is the end of your career, however long it is. You can put it as a 10-year window, you could put it as a five-year window, you're nowhere near it, and you don't know what's along the marathon race, right? Like, you don't know like if where the turns are, you know, you're just following these these flags, right? And you may roll your ankle, and you may have to figure out how to get from this point to that point with a roll with a sprained ankle, and you may have to get to this point and that point healthy, and you may have to get from this point to that point, not just like mentally not feeling yourself, but how are you gonna do it? Like, well, you can't do it by focusing on anything else that is not right in front of you. Like, if you're looking that far, like you're gonna miss everything that's right in front of your face. Um, and that's where you learn, that's where you get the actual experience, right? Like, you've done it, you've done it, you've done it. Like if you if you start when you got drafted in high school, if if you were just chasing the carrot the entire time, like you would have missed everything that you're teaching these kids now. So you have to get that buy-in somehow, and I do think it starts with the relationship. Yeah, um, it's not easy, right? Like, it's not an easy concept, right?

SPEAKER_03 40:05

For sure, right? Is there a coach that um passed that along to you that you remember? It doesn't have to be your favorite coach ever. I don't want to put you on the spot, but is there a coach that off the top of your head, like Greg Herbert was the guy for me? And it was interesting because I had some interactions with Greg off the field. He spent the time, you know, in the hotel room with seven, eight of us pitchers on a spring training night. Um, and just sharing about the game and and the mental part about the process and what you can control. You know, Greg Max always talked about I can control what I throw, how I throw it, where I throw it, once it leaves my hand, I can't control it anymore, right? But Greg was that guy for me. I still talk to Greg today. Uh, is there a guy in your life that that you would recognize as, you know, kind of helped you along the way, not so much physically, but the mental part?

SPEAKER_01 40:52

I mean, I would probably throw it back to Lauren Hibbs.

SPEAKER_06 40:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

I mean, I still talk to him to this day, like relationship there. Um, and probably my father, yeah, who didn't play baseball, but was really quick to say, you're playing baseball right now and getting paid? I'm at work in an office. Right. So like which one would you rather do? You know? Right. Um, but those would be the two that I'd probably throw it to.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

How many used to be? My dad. Your dad? My dad, for sure. I was fortunate. Like, he did play, played some minor league baseball, got to double A. Um, yeah, for sure, my dad.

SPEAKER_03 41:25

What would you tell your younger self um if you could if you could go back now and and tell your younger self when you're in the in high school or if you were in the minor leagues, what what's what's a piece of wisdom that you would tell yourself? Oh, this is easy.

SPEAKER_01 41:41

Do it. And I think it's still like for people today, find the weight room as fast as possible. Yeah, that's a good one. A hundred percent, especially in today's game. Well, I I mean I think like we talk about all the technology, and I want to move the bat fast, I want to throw it harder. Well, like, but you don't want to go to the gym.

SPEAKER_06 41:58

Clip it. Clip it.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

But you don't want to go to the gym, right? Like, I would I would have bought into that sooner. But again, I think times are different. Like, I played at Independence High School. We did not have weightlifting in the morning or after school. Like, you had to get the class right, and if you didn't get in the class, you didn't lift weights. Yeah, but now, like these programs, they lift in the morning, like take advantage of it. Yeah, if you want physicality is key.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

If you want to get better as fast as you can possibly get better, then get stronger. Because like you can do everything that you're doing wrong now, but you become a better athlete and stronger, you're gonna be a better player. And it's direct correlation, you don't get that a ton in baseball. So take advantage of it for sure.

SPEAKER_03 42:39

What does a big league ready hitter look like? So you guys are uh managing coaching in triple A right now, and I'm sure you're working on some swing issues, or we talked about the mental part a lot. Um, are you building hitters or or refining them at this point? And you know, what's what does a big league ready hitter look like right now?

SPEAKER_01 42:57

I think we're refining. There's a couple, but refining the majority of them. Um, I mean, even our prospects that have moved fast are like in really good positions. I think it's somebody who can control the zone, hit mistakes, yeah, and hunt your zone and stay in your zone.

SPEAKER_03 43:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

I mean, I think hitting's become really hard with what pitchers have done. And I think I would agree, like, we do get ourselves out because we stray away from our zone. We get sped up, we chase out of the zone. Now we're in counts that we don't want to be in.

SPEAKER_03 43:28

Yeah. I was a guy up in, you know, we have the pre-series meeting, and don't let this guy beat you in the middle of the lineup, or maybe you gotta keep the leadoff guy off base. Like he's the guy, the spark plug that gets it going. For me, I always I only wanted to know two things. I wanted to know if the guy was the first pitch swinger and I want to know if he can run. And I was always gonna pitch to my strength. And maybe that's a fault of mine. You know, maybe I needed to get more information on guys and what they could do, but I was a sinker slider split guy, and I was just gonna do what I was good at and not try to do what I couldn't do. Do right, this guy he's battled four seamers in. Well, I don't throw a four-seamer, so I'm not going, you know, I gotta do what I'm good at. I think that's still the same.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

I think pitchers, pitchers do the same, okay, pitch to their strengths. Yeah, and I think as hitters, we probably give too much credit to that. I think we veer towards how they're gonna attack us as opposed to like, no, this is where I'm good and I'm gonna stay here. Chad and I have had this conversation like mid-game last week. Um, and I think we we give too much credit, like we we chase the rabbit.

SPEAKER_03 44:34

So game accounts, and you know, when you're going good, you can get to two strikes and and be okay. Um when you're not going so good, you're not you might not be feeling good with zero strikes, or one for sure, right? You put extra pressure on yourself versus just staying in the process. Zach and I talk about this all the time as far as um leading up to my next question. How often do you guys, or player development guys in general, disagree on what a player needs and how do you handle it? So Zach talked and I talk about hitters from my pitcher's mind approach, and you know, from his talking about pitchers from a hitting approach. Um we may disagree, we're probably both right, um, but there's also like you gotta take step one before you get to step two, and you know, say what's the priority in this area? Do you guys have those conversations on players, player development? Are there disagreements in organizations?

SPEAKER_02 45:30

It's an interesting question because like you said, everyone has their opinion, right? Like but for in or and I think our hitting department in particular has done a really good job of aligning their like thoughts and their beliefs to where like hey, this is like the three pillars that we have, and we need to stay inside those. I don't know if you can agree with that, right?

SPEAKER_03 45:53

Are you allowed to share those pillars what they are?

SPEAKER_02 45:55

Um yeah, I mean they're impact, contact, and decisions.

SPEAKER_03 46:00

Okay, damage, damage, yeah, damage would be impact, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:04

So like it's super simple, right? Like, so what are we doing for the player in those three buckets to push them along?

SPEAKER_03 46:15

Impact, contact, impact, contact, damage, it would be impact, impact decisions.

SPEAKER_02 46:21

Like, are we swinging at strikes? Right? Like, well, they all three go together. Yeah, yeah, they're that's all. They do.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

I mean, you control the zone and swing at good pitches, and you can make contact, and then you have some physicality you can do damage.

SPEAKER_03 46:35

So I'm about to face you guys, and you have your hot zone, you have your cold zone. And that's probably something I would look at today. Like, if I was a pitcher in today's game, do hitters look at that like, well, geez, I'm I'm cold here. I need to, I need to turn that up a little bit, or I'm hot here. Oh, the pitcher's gonna go here, and then I'll be right back.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

I would hope that we try to stay where we're gonna stay in your zone. I think we try to stay where this is this has been our topic of conversation, like the two of us. Yeah, and it's been good. We're on the same page with it, so like maybe I need to, as the hidden guy, I need to we'd flip a switch and make a slight change to like what we we're doing with some of our guys as far as game planning. But no, just stay where you're good. Like, if it's funny, if you there's so much access to information now. So, like, if you go and look at a guy who's got some time, like his heat map per season is probably the same. So, like, why would we try to do something? Don't get away from it, right? Yeah, so now it's like, what's he gonna hunt in that area, or what's he gonna throw in that area? That's what you're hunting, like, don't miss it.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

I think the biggest, like, one of the best advice I've ever heard was like, don't spend an off-season, like, depending on what it is, don't spend your off season making a weakness average and not working on the strength that separates you, right? And that falls and becomes average. Now you're average. It's like if you have a good slider, don't work on three other pitches. Like, take your like pinnacle pitch and like maximize it because that separates you. So it's like, why would I focus on not having weaknesses? Because I promise when you cover that weakness, you're gonna open one up somewhere else. Because you have to have weaknesses. Your strength is going to be like, hey, I don't hit this pitch down and in well. Hopefully, coach gives me the off day on a stinker righty, or like I'm probably gonna push him out and over and avoid um give like that collision. Yeah, and sometimes you gotta bite it.

SPEAKER_02 48:28

You just be like, dude, I'm if he's gonna throw you three of those, it's easier said than done. Like, and those are the good hitters, right? They're like, he threw it in my my bad's like I'm not swinging at it, I'm not gonna do anything with it. I have the same story for that. I'd swing at it.

SPEAKER_03 48:43

Is that go for two strikes?

SPEAKER_01 48:44

Like, do I chance with two strikes? I think like when you get to two, you just compete. But I remember when I was with San Diego covering in triple A, guy had some big league time the year before. It was like, we were playing Tacoma, Seattle, big sinker sweep guys, and they're like, I'm gonna struggle. Like he knew it. But he was like, I'm gonna fight until and then he ended up getting a walk-off hit off a forcing guy because he struggled with sink. And it's like for guy, like I think younger hitters need to understand that. And and even at the pro level, I think at the lower levels, like you have an advanced meaning, they're like, Oh my god, he throws six pitches, and like they're trying to hit all six, and it's like, no, dude, two. Yeah, two, two. You got two to work with, but they still think like it's that yeah, uh high school draft, like high school mentality, like, oh, I just I raked everything. Yeah, like this is different, yeah. And it's still like it gets better as you go up, and this is still hard. Yeah, so I think it's like simplification.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

I also think like looking at um like strikeouts, not in quantity, but how they break up, like being okay with punching out looking um on the edges will actually reduce your strikeouts in the long term. Like if you have 95% punch out swinging, you're probably expanding the zone a lot. Um if you can strike out looking on the edge at that level, it's like you're commanding a zone, you're being you're okay with getting beat in a certain spot. And that doesn't mean we don't do our best to get there if we know it's in there. But like if it's if it's borderline, you know you can't get there and you're taking that pitch. Long term, he misses that pitch by another inch, especially with the ABS. Now, like we get the fastball away and we give ourselves another opportunity. But what are you gonna do with that pitch anyway?

SPEAKER_03 50:22

Does the ABS help a hitter or because in that scenario, like, you know, I'm not expanding, I'm gonna stay within my zone, my process, my approach, what I do, I can tap my head. You know, is is it helping the hitter or the pitcher more?

SPEAKER_00 50:36

I think it's equal. I think I I think it actually long term will benefit hitters because I think that there's less doubt in the pitcher's mind about the control of the F-bat, and the hitters always have to play that game of like, can I leave this pitch? If I know, like when you have command of the zone and you're seeing it well, like when the catcher catches it well, you look back sometimes and your heart drops because you know the umpire can pull the trigger on it, and you know it's two balls off. But like when that goes away and you kind of regain control, like it gives you the confidence to establish command and perfect a zone, and it doesn't mean it's always gonna be perfect, but I think once you have that, it takes a level of doubt out and takes another variable out and kind of just lets you lock in on what you do well, and I think long-term hitters will benefit from that. Yeah, that's long-winded, but I think you're fine.

SPEAKER_03 51:33

I agree with that. Um you guys are at the triple A level, the ath, the athleticism, the athletes that you're um with every single day are they're the next tier down from the top 800 that are the best in the world right now. Um when a player gets called up, um take me behind the scenes and and how that how that goes. You know, for the for the fans out there, you know, there's I know you guys have constant communication at the big league level with the White Sox and who's going well, who's not, what they need, all the stuff going on. This guy may be injured. We might have to call a guy up. That phone's been busy already. And the White Sox are playing well at the big league level. They they s they swept the Blue Jays. I mean, they're playing tight ball games. Yeah, they're winning tight ball games that they didn't win last year. So uh take me behind the scenes on how that communication goes. Um, and what's the difference between a triple A guy and a big league guy? There's not a lot.

SPEAKER_02 52:26

You know, no, there's not. There's not a lot. There's a mentality.

SPEAKER_03 52:29

Would you go to mentality first? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:31

There are guys that play at the triple A level that you said it earlier, they are much more talented than I ever was. Like, but there's something that changes once they get to that level where they're the stage is a little bit bigger, the pressure, the um I I I don't know what what it is, right? And then there's some guys that never get their opportunity, right? Like there are guys that are major league baseball players in the history of the game, that I mean probably thousands, that they're the shortstop with the Yankees. They could have played in the big leagues, and like right place, right time, opportunity, like that's a real thing. Like, it is.

SPEAKER_03 53:19

Um first guy who had the opportunity to tell he was going to the big leagues. How'd that go? Do you remember who it was?

SPEAKER_02 53:25

Yeah, well, it was uh Lucas Sims, but he I mean he's over five or six years in the big leagues already. So that one was that one was any debuts? Yeah, we never two three um we have had two so far, Tanner Murray. Yeah. Um that was in Nashville. Um he was down hitting in the cage, so I just brought him up and was showing him stuff, some stuff on the computer, messing with him. And um the best the one last night was awesome. Um because it happened in the middle of the game and it was for his debut. Um he they were like, hey, we we want you to tell him, we you need to tell him mid-game. Um and they were like, try to get it on video. And I was like, all right, well, so I went behind the tunnel and I called him, they called, they brought him over. And I'm like, hey dude, like how many can how many can you go tonight? And he's just like a lot. A lot. And I'm like, and I was like, how much is a lot? And he's like, five? I can give you five. Five in it. He's reliever. It's a reliever. He's like, I can give you five. Yeah, no problem. And I was like, could you like do that in Chicago? And he's like, no way. Like it was I just got chills. Like the video is awesome. Like, um, yeah, it hasn't got old. I can't imagine it will. Like super, super cool.

SPEAKER_03 54:52

That is that's all. Do you remember yours when you were you told me how's yours go?

SPEAKER_02 54:56

Was in Nashville. I was playing in Nashville. Um, I'd been playing banged up, like my knee had been bothering me. Um, so I was down in the cage hitting. Um, they sent the trainer down to grab me, brought me up to the manager's office, and he's like, hey, like, are you good to play? And I'm I'm like, Yeah, I'm good. Like, I kind of got irritated because I was like, You've been playing me for the last 14 days. Like, what do you mean am I good? Like, don't start trying to ask me if I'm okay now. Right. He's like, No, are you good? And I'm like, Yes, I'm fine. Yeah, like you're not taking me out of this lineup, like I'm good.

SPEAKER_04 55:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 55:31

Um He's like, Alright, you got a flight to catch. And I was like, that was the same thing, Jill.

SPEAKER_03 55:38

That's really cool. Um, how do you keep a triple A player from feeling like he's in the waiting room?

SPEAKER_02 55:45

Again, I think it goes to relationship, starting that foundation, and like there is no bigger truth than like you can't be anywhere other than where your feet are. Like you are you're gonna miss it. You're you're not gonna be in the moment, you're not gonna be able to make the adjustments you guys talk about, like in-game, you're like one of the things when I was in AAA that I just I could not, I didn't get like guys on our team when I was playing, like, they're watching the big league game, like seeing what's happening, and like like seeing it people, like I'm like, what? Like, I don't understand that.

SPEAKER_03 56:25

Like I do that all the time. We'll watch the first three innings and go out the pen, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:30

I'm like, we're here playing baseball. Yeah, like I don't know. Like, for me, it's just like getting the buy-in of like you're here, like make the most of this, and let the uncontrollables tell you. Like, you don't like there's nothing that you can do to control it.

SPEAKER_03 56:46

Yeah, Rim and I are always endeavoring to marry the spiritual side of what we live in in this world versus the natural side, and the um the ability to, or the understanding, I guess to say that if the enemy can keep you in the past or cause you to look too far in the future, then he's got you beat. The ability to stay in the present is is so real. And um so high school players, they're you know way down the list from where you guys are right now, but what do they completely misunderstand about pro baseball? They have a they have we we cross paths with guys all the time. Probably the lifestyle the lifestyle, okay? The catch catching the 6 a.m. flight or catching the buses.

SPEAKER_01 57:32

Right. And then you don't fly until AAA.

SPEAKER_06 57:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:35

So it's not long ago that he and I were just on buses last year. Um and then I I think the being away from home, the lifestyle aspect of it for high school guys, I think the the struggles. And and I'll say this like I think being where your feet are is probably the most important thing. Because like, disclaimer, when you're playing in the minor leagues, you're playing for the other 29 teams also. Yes. I think the one thing that's a misconception is that everybody gets drafted by this team. I'm gonna play in the big leagues for them. No, dude, every day's an audition. And I and I saw it last year, like I was with the Mets last year, and we had good players in double-A, won 94 games. Our shortstop's not going to play shortstop in New York.

SPEAKER_03 58:25

No. Well, I don't know. I saw Lindor, I think there were two outs the other day instead of one.

SPEAKER_01 58:29

Yeah, but he got traded, he's with Milwaukee now. So like he's he was playing for Nashville last week. Like, right, he's a good player, like he's gonna have an opportunity there. Like, I think they need to understand that. So that's why like you're being where your feet are every day and being present in the moment, like it's huge.

SPEAKER_03 58:44

We have that same culture now in college baseball. You can transfer four years, and you can you're always a free agent.

SPEAKER_00 58:49

Yeah, that's another podcast. Uh it is, it totally is. Yeah, but let the per like it you can cultivate perseverance and allow it to push you into like versatility. Like, I my first year in Pro Bowl, we drafted Jake Berger, and I was a third baseman, so I wasn't anymore. I was a second baseman and third baseman. And then the next year we drafted Madrigal. It's like I'm no longer a second baseman. Like I'm at the low levels with first rounders coming in. So I played second and third when they were off, and I just started jumping around, and I was like, hey, I can play outfield too. And sure enough, like that's the route that ended up unblocking me within the organization I was in and allowed me to get to the highest level. And it's just like it's not always a bad thing, like when you run into those situations. Like he said, it's like teams are looking for guys that are good that have nowhere to go. Because like they know that other teams are looking to trade those guys for something of value.

SPEAKER_03 59:44

Yeah, I mean versatility. As human beings, we have to evolve. If you refuse, if you're hard-headed and you refuse to evolve in life in general, you're not gonna be successful. The games evolved, businesses evolved, you know, everything's evolving, and so the ability to play another position, obviously, in your situation, Zach, in your situation, like being able to play another position to get your bat into the lineup is crucial.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:07

Didn't you say that there was a guy locally high school that like didn't play till he was a junior and ended up like going high D1 and then played in Pro Ball and drafted? And it's like just because he was on a really good high school team with really good players, it's like you might find like yes, everyone's the best high school player in their area, but some aren't, like, because you're behind three guys who are gonna get drafted in the first round, and it's like people know that, so like just stay the course. Stay the course.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:33

The guys who bloom the latest, the late bloomers, they end up playing the longest a lot of times. I mean, Richie Schaefer was you know 150 pounds and 6'4 at the same time, and you know, he had committed to Clemson, I think, as a sophomore or junior, and people like he can't play Clemson. You know, I remember that. The guy played in the big leagues, he just bloomed later. So it goes back to that sprint versus marathon conversation, like, oh, just because he's not doing it now, they can't see what the four of us and many other good baseball eyes and minds can see. Like, that kid's gonna be really good. And Zach and I cross paths with kids all the time. Like, stay the just keep working. No, you're you're on our third team right now. Jackson Coward was on our third team until he was in high school. Yeah, but it's even hard to get coaches to believe that.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:18

Like, there's so many coaches, even like that we have that like we'll be like, we'll make decisions on kids, and I'm just like, like, that kid could be the best plus like could outrun everyone. Like, it's yeah, like Jake's saying, it's just like staying the course, and it goes back to like a more extreme version of what you're saying. Like, you're doing it in a short sprint of guys that know they're good, but we're doing it kind of in the capacity of like there's so much unknown. Like, these kids might not be make their high school team, or like they might be the next big thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:49

Well, it's I think like at that level, baseball in this city is so competitive, and I think the state of the course is like the hardest thing. Parents are like, oh, my son's not playing short, let's go somewhere else. Well, like, again, you're seeing prospects and organizations like play play six games on a week, and it's like you're gonna play one at third, you're gonna play one at short, you're gonna play two in center field. He's a shortstop. But like that's the issue. It was the Padres a couple years ago. There's 30 of them, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:18

Jackson Merrills and there's 30 shortstops.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:20

Jackson Merrill was our shortstop in 2023. Right. In in high A. Where'd he go in 24? To center field in big leagues. Right. And like, why I think that that like so then you have these organizations with good coaches at the younger levels, and I feel like parents are unhappy, so they pull them out. They go somewhere else where they can play the position they think they want to play, and it's just like hinders development. It absolutely does. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:47

That thing was that the Padgers had six or seven shortstops on the field. On the field in the big leagues and just at different spots.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:54

Yeah, Tis, Cronenworth, uh Danny.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:59

Manny.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:00

If you're talking about top top end athlete athletes, like you're not talking about.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:04

You are humble enough to move, right? I don't have to be the shortstop. I'm we get it at 10, 11, 12 years old. My kid's got to play shortstop. No, he doesn't. You also like I'd like to put him behind the plate because he's athletic enough to let him touch the ball every for every play.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:18

If you knew what shortstop was in the big leagues, like you might honestly want to go play right field because it's a different animal. And it's like you gotta have a certain mindset, but like that position isn't like a fun standout there position. It's like it's work, it's a longer season to play short every day at that level. You have to it's different. It's different.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:35

By far. Mm-hmm. Yeah. True shortstops, like to play at the major league level and be a shortstop, nah, like.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:47

You have to have the athleticism, you have to have the consistency, you have to have the you know, the mindset. It's it's a lot.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:52

You got the leadership skills, yes, the knowledge of the game, all of it. It goes back to what we talked about.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:00

Nuances, mentality.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:02

Well, I remember at End of Jeter's career, there was a lot of talk about, well, he needs to move to second or he needs to let the young guy come up, but those intangibles that he was able to provide kept him there all of it. Kept him there.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:13

Kept him there over A Rod and probably a better defender. Yeah. Correct. Realistically.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:18

All right, you know, we could probably talk for hours. Yeah, you know. Um, but I do want to end with this. You know, has analytics made managers and coaches less accountable in today's game?

SPEAKER_05 1:04:29

I like it.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:31

Like, are we going by the by the computer all the time? Is it is it difficult? So let's go back. Oh gosh, it's probably been 15 years now with Grady Little. Um I think he left Pedro in the game. You're not taking Pedro out in that situation. It didn't end up the you know with the result they wanted. But and that was they probably had some analytics then, not as many as they have now, the data. He leaves him in the game, he wears it, right? Obviously, Grady's a great manager, you know, great human being. But has the analytics, has the computer made it easier, harder.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:07

I'll start just while you guys think, like, just from an outsider's perspective, of like it almost has become from like uh just looking in is like analytics is safe and anything in opposition to what the analytics say is risk. So like front offices, managers, like the easy route is to go with the computer because regardless of the outcome, like you have something to stand on. But when you see something like Blake Snow in the playoffs, and like analytics is good over the course of a season, but like you were saying earlier, even with hitting and like skill specific, it's like great, it's great over the course of a season. But what if there's a guy on second, or what if it's basis loaded or second and third with one out in the ninth of a game you have to win, or your season's over? It's like there's no more long jet. It's like it's that at bat. So like the decision has to come down to a more what do you see relational component. And I think like it puts a it puts people in a position where you don't have the safety of analytics to fall back on.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:16

Yeah. I'll give you another thing. Mark DeRossa and I played together for a couple years, and obviously great baseball mind. He manages Team USA in the WBC. And you get to the finals and you don't have Henderson and you don't have Terrain or excuse me, uh Crow Armstrong in the game. Who had carried, I mean, borderline carried them a couple games, right? And you go with the veterans at that point. He probably went against analytics a little bit there. Right? It was a great game. Venezuela wins three to two. But you know, does it make managers less accountable? Is the front office more accountable?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:51

I think the accountability part, like you're a team, so you're still having, especially specifically only at the major league level, like you're still having to go to the podium and answer the questions to what your decisions were and why they were. So you're still being held accountable. Um like in every and every organization is different in terms of the value of the analytics. Everybody's getting the numbers, everybody's getting like, hey, this is what we're doing. But it's also like a lot of managers and myself, like even myself, like I view analytics, even though you could say analytics kept me off the field, like analytics put me in a lot of advantageous situations for me to have success against left-handed pitching, to have great success coming off the bench against left-handed relievers. Like, I do think there's like a there's real value in those things. So yeah, you're it's it's it's a belief thing, right? Like so like some managers may be extremely analytic, some managers may be partially analytic, and like that's when you know the front office and the manager and they're they're the game plan of what they're doing, like they're still gonna be held accountable because they have to answer the questions, right? They're on the front line. Um and to that point it's just like what is your belief? And if that's your belief, then you're gonna stand on it, and you should, right? Like, that's the decision I made, and this is why, and like that's what it is.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:28

I mean, the fan sees a guy go two for four on Wednesday night and two for four on Thursday night, and he's not in the lineup on Friday, and they don't understand like he's a left-hand hitter facing Chris Sale, and you know, or maybe it's like I know this guy's going good, he's seeing the ball well, and I'm gonna leave him in there, and then you've got to fight the other side. Well, he shouldn't be facing Chris Sale. You know?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:47

Because it's like a feeling of millions of players. Totally. That's what it comes down to. Like, I think that a lot of this stuff it's like the answers to the test, kind of, and like how are we gonna use them? But you look at like Dave Roberts, he took heat there because they were getting making postseason runs and then just the pitching. But at the end of the day, like, that's your big league bullpen. Like, they have to execute too. Right. You know, like they'll say, like, oh well, the it the the analytics say he shouldn't be in there, yeah. Or he should be in there, whichever one it is, but like at the end of the day, they have to be the guy that they're paid to be in the back end of a bullpen. Right. Hitter's the same way.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:26

So, um, last couple of questions. If you could delete, eliminate one thing from today's game, what would it be? I think tw I I personally think the 20 second clock is a little fast.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:37

I love it.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:39

It's a little fast. I don't know if you go to 25 or 22. I think the 20 second clock is a little fast. And I personally hate only being able to pick the first base twice.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:47

I think that's a weird one for sure. The pick off twice is a weird one for me, but like the I mean when I was playing like I'm gonna step in, get going. Yeah, but like even the clock, like when I step in, like I wasn't a guy that really knew what to do with extra time. Like if I step out and take a practice swing, I'm probably I'm probably off. I'm usually like take a finish, get back in the game, choke. Like, I don't have time to step in. Yeah, I'm like, let me get ready first, and like I'll wait on them. But like the clock. Yeah, and it gets you.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:16

Pictures complaining about two disengagements. We get one time out. Right. So that needs the that's a weird thing, too.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:24

One time, I don't if you use it, no. Yeah, we get that, and I can't remember. You guys get five times. You have the big use. Yeah, you can't use it. Yeah. You guys don't use the battery. We actually saw the guy the other day.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:38

The clock is too fast. The clock's too fast. We had a guy bat at bat, Mozita off the field, not us. And the next hitter had to use a timeout before a pitch was even thrown, and then he forgot he used the timeout, tried to use it on strike two. We'll see it. Really?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:53

Yep. Oh man. I was watching a game last night, and a reliever comes in, it was a second and third, and um time had elapsed for some reason, and he got he has to start with the ball one count. I I just don't believe in that. Yeah, in certain situations, do you turn it off in the eighth and ninth? You know, do you give endless ABS endless ABS challenges in the eighth and ninth?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:14

Like I don't like the clock coming into play to dictate a season or a game or a like big game over the course. I don't know. I don't know how you do that and make it like uniform to work, but it seems like it's has some appeal. I think my biggest thing that I would like to change is like all these roster cuts, draft being trimmed down, like um organizations shrinking, and not even from a personal standpoint, but from a like there's a lot of really good players who got drafted in the 25th round, the 30th round, the 35th round, and now Steve Bull, my year got drafted in the 88th round. That's yeah, but that's what I mean. So like it's becoming like the more it shrinks, the less opportunity you'll see. Because it's tough to get in. Like they don't, and they do, but they don't care about character if they're drafting you and stuff, they do. But like character comes into play when you get into the clubhouse. Like I had value and could extend my career because I was there and they didn't want to get rid of me, and I like was a good teammate and helped guys around me, but like once you're out, like it's the situation I'm in. Once I got out, like the it kind of moves on without you. So um I think that I would like to see people more guys get opportunity to be with, like, be affiliated because the resources and the training are different too. Like, just because you have an opportunity to play indie ball doesn't mean you're getting the same, like you don't have an eye pitch on your indie ball team. You don't have like the same access to technology.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:48

So that's not Pro Ball.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:50

No, it's years behind.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:51

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, uh, is there something that fans believe that's totally false about pro baseball? I'll give you one, like, people thought I showed up at like 6 30 for my 7 o'clock game and I was there at noon. Yeah, a couple hours.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:04

That's saying where they make you show up like an hour before the game. Yeah, and it's like no, then threw my uniform and went. Been here since 10, guys.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:10

I think my wife still thinks I'm lying. Like, I think she I was like, I gotta go to the field. She's like, it's 12 or 11:30. And I'm like, no, I know, but I have to. I'm like, kind of nothing for like three hours, but I got a lot of stuff to do. Yeah, and I gotta be there.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:25

Uh all right, last one. Have you guys ever have you had to make a decision that went against analytics that you would 100% do it again? You been in that situation? Not really. It's more of a manager's question.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:37

Yeah, no, I mean like it's at the minor league level, like especially last year. I mean, we're we're only like eight games in, right? But last year in Canapolis, like, that stuff's not really in play, right? Like, it's about we're we're putting our lineup out there, and like we're not really pinch hitting, like, we want these guys to get at bats and be in those situations, and so that really hasn't happened to me. Like, I mean, there's things that that aren't analytics that maybe I shouldn't have done it, but I would do it again in a heartbeat if if we if it had been executed the right way.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:17

Like getting a bun down or stealing the big thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:20

Yeah, like yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Like those types of things.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:22

It's it's much less analytically based than um who develops more college baseball or professional baseball organizations? I'm a high school kid, I get drafted in the fifth round, seventh round, tenth round, whatever it is. My my answer is true development.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:40

It's pro ball because of that, because of the transfer portal.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:45

You gotta win at the college level. You have to. And there is development there, don't get me wrong. No, no, the idea. But you you can a kid can go over 20 in a ball and be out there the next day. You go 0 for 20 at Coastal Carolina or UNC, like you're not in the lineup anymore.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:59

But you also have a roster. Like you're like your seven year, six-year minor league contract until someone tells you to go somewhere else or go home. Like you belong to the organization, you have no freedom to choose to go somewhere else. Like, true. So it's like you're committed to make the situation you're currently in work, which is a different mindset. So, like you see, Pro Ball in the minor leagues, Pro Ball is becoming more like that college development system that used to be. Like, college used to be where you wanted to go because like college is where I learned like a lot about how the game worked, like bunting, like bunt defenses, like cutoffs. Like we were drawing X's and O's for the first time. So it's like that was now where like I think like A-ball threw double A and now triple A, even or like and the big leagues, honestly, everyone's kind of developing.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:55

Yeah, that's gonna be a huge mindset shift for high school kids and through through the travel ball uh ranks and college kids with the ability to transfer every year. That when you get to the Pro Bowl, your organization, whoever drafts you, there's no plan B. You have to figure it out. It's like, well, I don't like the situation, I'm going, I'm leaving. Or I I'm not playing enough on this team, I'm leaving. But you have time enough to develop.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:23

Yeah, yeah, like that's the thing, and that's what you're not getting in college anymore. Right. Um, where like you may not want to enter the portal, but like they may not want you there anymore.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:34

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:34

And like Pro Ball is like kind of feeding the monster that we're dealing with, and not in a bad way, but in a way of like Pro Ball is developing their development programs at such an elite rate that like they don't care, like they care, but they don't. Like, it's better to have a guy walk in the door and like know what to do and play the game the right way, and like they're starting to just pick talent that they want to bring into their system that they think they can get to where they want them to be. So it's more work in the development end, but they're investing the resources in it to get it done. So it's like, let's go find who we want and we'll develop him our way in our system, and like we'll we'll kind of walk him through it versus it used to depend a lot on college to get these guys to a certain place in order to get so on and so forth.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:24

All right, does Pete Rose get 4,000 hits in today's game?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:28

No. Sorry, he's great. I think he gets three. I watched him talk the other night.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:33

It was uh, you know, he was talking about some simple adjustments. If I if I'm not hitting the ball away, I scoot up on the plate. If I'm getting beat, I scoot back one night. Those seemingly easy adjustments, uh, the the who I'm playing against, who I'm hitting against, you don't think he gets four thousand hits today, Zach?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:54

I don't know, man. He played 24 years, 26 years.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:58

Yeah, like you know, like I think I think he still does. I think he still does. Yeah, I think he's up to it. I think he his ability, just like even growing up, seeing the very minimal parts of his career that I saw, like his ability to handle the bat and like right.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:16

Yeah, it's all relative, right? Like, so he with what he had, right, to develop, to play at that level, who's to say that with what we have now, he wouldn't be freaking better. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:30

Yeah, but who's to say that he wouldn't be like pulled into the power output game a little bit more? Because back then it was like you hit 300 and you do your thing or you run around or something.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:44

Is that gonna come? I think pitching is gonna start to go back to sink or slide or keep the ball in the ballpark.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:49

Well, now versus forcing us to push the mound back.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:52

Oh there we go.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:53

Yeah, that's the one thing that needs to happen. No, well, I mean, but a lot of guys now are throwing. Would you rather push the mound back and raise it? Raise the mound? You can have it as high as you want. Oh push it back. Okay. But that's but guys now, like it's when we're advancing these teams and these pitchers, like, hey guys, he throws four fastballs. Yes, uh it's a cut, it's a it's a runner, there's a four-cene, and there's a sinker. And like, yeah, we have percentages, but like that only that that only matters until the game starts.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:25

Yeah, I'm a big like let's declare three. Let's declare four before the game. Hey, you have a 50-pitch arsenal, you have to declare four pitches, and let's play baseball. Like, what is this like? I mean, if you're gonna be a little bit more straight leading rolls there, yeah. Two straight knuckle balls numbered here. Yeah. I mean, yeah, but like pitchers, I don't know how like it's always relative, like results-wise, but like I don't know how they you, I don't know how you have a problem with how it works. Like I don't have a problem with it. No, I'm saying like pitchers in general, like, how is their pushback? Hitting is so we just talked about different armor and the punter, the I mean.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:02

Yeah, but it was like it's more concessions, but you're even even here where it's like close.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:10

We're trying to see how much we can get it to move horizontally. Yeah. Okay, now we're gonna throw a wrench in there, let's back it up out of our hand now.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:17

Right. The backup slider is the hardest pitch to hit.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:23

I swung. If I would have, if it would have broke, I would have hit it. Yeah, you're right. But guess what? It didn't do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:28

And you somehow broke your bat on a 80-mile-hour pitch.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:32

Yeah. Yeah. So it went from the extreme where it's like, let's sweep this as much as we can to like now, let's just like baby it out of our hand and get it to just spin like a toilet bowl.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:43

I mean, yeah, so hard. It's just, I think on the like our end, it's just like the hitting, like going to the hitters' meetings, then the cage, then watching video, watching video from front view to see where he's setting up and trying to attack you, watching video from side because you're trying to figure out why you can't hit a fastball down the middle and you have a Swiss cheese bat, and it's like all the like the combination of variables is just like we don't like this is the hardest thing to do in sports. Yeah, it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:09

The life expenses expectancy of a hitting coach is like not good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:13

Well, it's because you have 60 jobs, you know, it's not a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:16

But it's it's it's also it goes back to what we're talking about earlier, where it's like pitchers pitch their strengths. All right, so like if we face so-and-so today and we face them again in three weeks, and we go, okay, this is how he attacked me as an individual hitter. Okay, now he's pitching backwards because like maybe in that three-week span something happened where it's not the same anymore. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:41

So it's like now you're like It's a Royce Chapman found his breaking ball for a strike, and all of a sudden he's better in year 18 than he was in year three.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:49

Yeah, he just was in the ball playing, you shift your fingers over a little, and then you have this new pitch, and now like we I think that was the craziest thing I saw when I got into coaching in Pro Ball.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:00

Like with my first job with the Red Sox, just standing there as a bench coach watching a guy throw a pen, and they were like, hey, just do this. And like the metric change of the pitch, I'm like, it's unbelievable. Yeah, it is, it's unfair.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:12

I mean, but also, like, yeah, it's uh it is. Pitchers are really, really good. So moving around back, point taken.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:18

It's a great game, it's a game of adjustments, it's a marathon, and it's a game of repetition. I don't think those three things are gonna go away. Right. The more you do it, the better you're gonna get. It is a marathon. Trust the process and the abilities guys given you, right? Um, I appreciate you guys being on the show. That was a good one. We could probably talk another four or five hours. Um good luck tonight. Appreciate it. Uh, good luck in your coaching careers. I know you both are enjoying it. Um, thanks to Zach Remlard, as always, being on live at the show. We'll see you next time. We thank you for listening.