Live at the Show

GOD TALK w/ Chaplain Lincoln Lawing! Ep 12. Live at the Show

• Jake Robbins • Episode 12

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On todays episode of Live at the Show Jake and Zach sit down with Lincoln Lawing! Lincoln is a Chaplain who does full time ministry to share the gospel with unbelievers and encourage those who already believe to continue living in the gospel!

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SPEAKER_03

Um I always say we know uh God's a huge baseball fan first because he said in the beginning, dude, I can go out here. I know what's gonna happen to me when I die. My identity is not in this game. Living in the word too, it creates this consistency in our life.

SPEAKER_02

God gives us the ability, it gives a lot of these young kids uh the ability to play. And then what they do with that ability is their gift back to him. The Lord's definitely set it up for humanity to be in unity and work together.

SPEAKER_03

A failure is not the end of the road. Learn from it, flush it, move on.

SPEAKER_02

I would say there's greater opportunity to grow from failure than there is from success.

SPEAKER_00

Like you're not gonna leave this side of heaven without like having some encounters with the Lord. He's gonna interrupt you.

SPEAKER_03

I think the biggest thing I've learned is it's obscure from baseball. Some days in life you don't have your best stuff, but you don't get the day off.

SPEAKER_02

Welcome back to Live at the Show. We're here with a special guest, Lincoln Long from ASOL Talks, and Jarrett Thompson, the infamous strength and conditioning coordinator here at SBA. And Zach Gremilark, former big leaguer, current CEO of SBA. We're excited about today's show to talk about faith in baseball, faith in sports, faith and really about anything, right? So um let's talk about how you got started and what you're doing, and um and then we'll kick it off from there. Alrighty.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I get to tell baseball guys about Jesus, work with them, and I've always been a baseball guy. It's all we really knew growing up. And you know, I was in career day, second grade, and I did a presentation on playing in the big leagues, and Miss Lewis said, Lincoln, what's your backup plan? I said, Well, you know, I play third right now, maybe first base, backup plan. And she said, No, your backup plan if you don't play in the big leagues. I said, I don't have one because that's for normal people. But uh progressed, wanted to play in college, got good enough to play, was getting toward the end of the high school career, got hurt, and man, uh, because I didn't have my foundation right, uh, baseball was number one. I didn't have my faith in God. I I knew God here, but I didn't have him in my heart, and I had no identity, no foundation, so I floundered and went sideways. Addiction, and just man, I was a mess for a long time. And so by the grace of God, he saved me in 2009. And I had no intention of doing ministry, but God opened some doors with some sports ministry, and I've, man, I look back, I've almost had 15 years now of telling baseball guys about Jesus. So just getting to know them, walking through life with them, and pointing them to him, and everybody's on their own journey, everybody's on their own timetable. So, you know, it doesn't you don't have to be a Christian. I just want to meet guys where they are, love them, point them to him, and let God do what he does. And because I know firsthand if not having that foundation and identity in something bigger than baseball uh is not good because you you can't play forever. Right.

SPEAKER_02

No doubt. You and I have had many conversations um about Jesus and about the game, and um, and the two go together, in my opinion, um, because you know, God gives us the ability or gives a lot of these young kids uh the ability to play, and then what they do with that ability is their gift back to him. Um, Zach and JT and I had the those same conversations. So, what in y'all's opinion, what does it mean to build your identity in Christ instead of your stat line? You know, for me, it's you know, Christ is gonna be the same yesterday, today, and forever. Your stat line's probably not gonna be the same today, yesterday, and forever. Zach, like in the big leagues um or even coming up through the minor leagues. Uh for myself, I I thought about quitting a couple times before I got there. Um, your stat line's great and everything is going good. Uh your stat line hits the bricks, and you know, everything's not good unless you have a foundation. You want to talk about that in your career?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um, just a couple times, uh, I would say probably dozens of times thinking about quitting. Um because like I same similar story in the sense of just like from an identity piece, it like probably didn't have the same fruit at the time, but um, it may have looked different. But when you're putting your identity in the game, which I played a lot of my career um in that space, it's it can be really, really difficult. It can be very up and down, it can get really confusing, wishy-washy, because you're putting all of your value into something that doesn't have affection for you, doesn't care about you, doesn't care to build you up. It is a created thing. It is not the creator. Do you know what I mean? So it's like that created in me an inconsistency. It affected how I related to my wife, it affected how I related to my family after the game. It was um it kind of put everyone on eggshells because my life was defined by three hours at the end of the day. Um, and like what what you're saying is like it's a cliche, which is unfortunate, that like hasn't had like meaning and value to a lot of people yet. So like putting your identity in the game can become um words on a page, but then like he was saying, like, head knowledge turning into like deep understanding and wisdom only happens through like walking the experience. And it's like when you look back, it's not that you were right because of where you stand, it's because of God's grace walking you through a season of like deep rebellion and his kindness that leads you to that repentance or that um revelation of like walking in a new direction because like you align your desire, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03

Right. Uh exactly, because I always tell the guys one, like you said, the created. You know, I tell guys all the time, baseball is a good gift from a good God, but it is not God. And when you try to put something in that place, instead of beginning to love it, you start to demonize it, right? Because it's not giving you. I mean, how many times we all know guys, they've hit 40 home runs in the bigs, made 50 million dollars in their career, but they're as miserable now as they were when they were in middle school trying to make it. And I think the biggest difference, what I try to tell guys, is if you know Jesus, you can compete for freedom, not, you know, like from freedom, not for freedom. So what that means is, hey, dude, I can go out here, I know what's gonna happen to me when I die. My identity is not in this game. So then I'm not worried about messing up, I'm not worried about playing Timot. I'm gonna go out there and give everything I've got, leave nothing on the table, because regardless of what happens here, I'm a free man and I'm in Christ when I walk off the field. And that attitude translates O for four, oh for the week. Dude, you keep doing what you're doing, it doesn't get to you because it's bigger than that.

SPEAKER_00

I think it makes a difference. And don't, like I heard it recently, and it kind of just it deeply resonated. It's like, don't turn a good thing into a God thing. And I think that like we can take these gifts, these incredible gifts of the game of an awesome day, of home runs. Like, I think we get into the place of like, oh, it doesn't even matter what you do. It's like, no, that's not true either. That's like an overcorrection of trying to numb out of like experiencing life and detach from the human emotional component. It's like it just needs to have discernment, like through relationship with God, through the Holy Spirit, to understand like where does this belong in my life? If it's positioned properly, it's not a crutch, it's something that produces joy. If it takes the wrong seat of unimportance or too much importance, you find yourself like a little bit off kilter with it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, balance is important. Yeah, um, you mentioned you said the word purpose, you know, purpose versus production. And you know, a lot of times the you're riding the the highs and lows, and you know, the better baseball players are able to stay even killed. But you know, how do you how do you stay grounded when baseball tries to define your worth? But when you know your worth, who you are in Christ Jesus, and you don't allow um the peaks and the valleys to dictate your worth, you know, you allow the word of God to dictate your worth. Um it makes things a lot easier to deal with the failures, but it's also uh you gotta walk in humility and and um and give the Lord the credit, right? The glory when you do have success.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, success. Sometimes we say, How do you battle through adversity, right? Like how we talk about that a lot, but how do you handle success? Success reveals a man. I mean, we talk to kids a lot, hey, you go hope for four. What if you well, what about what if what about when you do uh sign where you want to play? What about when you do get paid to play? I mean, that's going, and once again, if it's not in the right place, as you said, in the right position, that's awesome. Because you see that, okay, I've got a platform, I've got an opportunity from God that I will steward humbly. And man, that success is key. And and so not riding that, because if you ride the waves and you live on that praise from everybody, then you die by the lack of it, right? And so it's hard to, it's important not to let that be in up top.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, we always talk about who you are is more important than what you do in this life, and who you are when the uniform comes off, right, is gonna be even more important, right? So Colossians 3.23 says, Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart. And understanding that where your ability came from, right, to play. And then, but still the ability to separate performance from purpose isn't always easy, right? You're in the weight room, JT, and you know, guys are having a good day, they hit a PR, or or maybe they're they're going on lack of sleep, or they're going on lack of food and energy, and it's not a good day, right? But they how do you share with them the purpose of what they're doing, and maybe performance wasn't where they wanted to be that day?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think the biggest thing is like living in the word too, it creates this consistency in our life that sometimes we don't get out of you know, other attainable objects or materialistic things. So you kind of portray that also through the weight room. Like you're not gonna have your best day every day. All right, but as long as we're consistent and have intent with the way we live, the way we train, the way we dive into the word each day. Um it's a long-term development than it is uh we're really good today, that's awesome. Tomorrow we come in and we're just a different human. Okay, so I think that's been the biggest thing, and I'd probably notice it more in my junior year once I finally started diving into the word. You know, you grow up in church, you go every Sunday, um, but you didn't maybe necessarily have that desire to indulge all the way into it. Um it was kind of a check the box, your parents making you go this Sunday. But then got to a bunch of teammates, junior year, we started going as a group, and then we just felt ourselves just more consistently wanting to dive into it and finding excitement in it and finding joy from it. Um and we just noticed the the camaraderie of the group as well. Um in the weight room, like when the group is always in there consistently pushing each other and themselves, you see an outcome that's bigger than other things. When it's just you by yourself working, um you don't really get that that feeling of joy towards those things. And I've noticed that when getting into the word, like men's group in Nashville that I was with. If when we're doing it together, it feels more fulfilling than when you're just diving in by yourself.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, the the Lord's definitely set it up for humanity to be in unity and work together, right? We need relationship in our life. Um the game at the amateur level has become such a sprint every weekend World Series, every weekend, you know, it's make or break for your career individually and as a team. Um it's turned versus Christianity is a marathon, it's eternity, right? And baseball is the same way, it should be a marathon. The ability to step back and look from a 30,000-foot view where I'm at, versus on the field just you know went over four in a in a quote world series. Um has youth baseball turned into a do you see y'all see the same thing? It's turned into this sprint where I I've gotta produce now, and what is there any positive out of it? Is there mostly negative in my opinion? What do you guys what do you guys think?

SPEAKER_03

I know I heard a guy make a good analogy because sometimes we've turned it into a business early. I mean, there's you gotta be you want to specialize, you want to be good, but I think sometimes we've put expectations on kids that you're not supposed to have till you're 18 and up when they're seven to ten years old. And what he said, it's not the wrong thing, but it's at the wrong time. So I think about my daughters are 12 and 13. They're gonna drive one day, but they're I don't want to throw them the keys today and say, hey, drive us, drive to school. They're not ready for that. And what might happen on the way might mess them up. And so I think that's what we've done, and we've all and it's where it's at, we're all guilty of it to some level. We've taken eight, nine, ten-year-old kids and threw them the keys to the truck. Hey, drive us. And if you mess up, dude, you are in trouble. You if you don't know how to drive, you're a loser. Because your friend, he's just signed to drive at LSU, and he's only 11. So I but that's what I and so I think what it's done, and I know for me, and it carries into the Christian life, it's removed the grace of the of the journey. And so I think when you get married or you come to know Christ, you think you gotta have everything figured out. And so it took me until I was 35 to realize, man, it's okay to mess up. I mean, really, it's okay to mess up. This is a journey, it's not a sprint. And so, yes, I don't I think you take a step back and look, what I've tried to do to correct is tell guys, like, hey, this is still a journey. You go, you can't throw this, you will grow, you'll get bigger, this will work. Or the biggest thing is a failure is not the end of the road. Learn from it, flush it, move on. And it's hard for young guys, their brains to see it the way these guys in college stuff. See, they're too young. Right.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but how much of it is a trickle down from the effects of the portal in college? I mean, in a sense, it's the same way in college athletics as it could be in youth, is I'm not playing on this team, so I'm gonna get up out of here and go get go try and find another roster. I mean, there is part to that, like college coaches, you know, it's their life. They've got to win. Um there isn't as much of the development piece now as it seems like in college, because it is a win now attitude. Um you see coaches go in for two years and they get canned because they didn't produce. So I do think some of that might be that trickle-down effect of well, I'm not playing here and I've got to be seen because I've got to get recruited, I've got to do this, so I'm gonna go somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but what interests me about that is that like as much as you're saying, like we say, and I agree, that it is producing this like semi-different product because of our response to it, but like in that is a unique opportunity to go against the grain and have that stand out. It's like if this is if the game is moving toward a faster pace timeline and coaches are becoming a little bit more um reactive or fearful or scarcity mindset, like what an opportunity to step in with like trust, grace, love, abundance, and create something or an environment or a culture that is so like counter-worldly that it stands out like the city on the hill. It's like if you want to produce effective outcomes, then like the process oriented, like being process-oriented and doing right will produce the outcome you desire, but chasing outcome and measuring everything you do against my win losses, against what I have, against my bank account. It's like outcomes aren't evident, like aren't fruit. It's not a f it's not a fruit of life. Like they are a byproduct, oftentimes, of good processes, and um, but that doesn't mean they're a means to an end. They're empty. And if that's what you're chasing, like people become objects, not people.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, we talk about being present, and it's so difficult to be present in this life right now, um, because of people worried about what someone else is doing on social media, or worried about, you know, the end goal versus taking that next step of growth or next step of maturity. Um whether it's in Christ or whether it's on the baseball field. Um so long-term cost of chasing exposure early. I feel like so many athletes are chasing exposure versus chasing after the uh the dreams and the abilities God's placed in their heart. Right? I want exposure now. And in that word, exposure, you know, that I want to be in the right tournaments or I want to be present on social media. We were talking about earlier before we went on the set, you know, the kids that you saw play recently, oh, you know, doubted athletes isn't here today, so this at bat doesn't matter. Versus when doubted athletes is there, it's on video. And shout out Doubt Athletes, they do an amazing job, obviously. But that is a factor, it's a variable that, oh, nobody's videoing today, so it doesn't matter. No, it does because you're displaying the ability God's given you to play that this wonderful game. Why does it have to be on camera?

SPEAKER_03

And putting the inputs in, I mean, who you are on camera is when you're is a byproduct of what you do when nobody's watching. And I think what I tell guys all the time is, you know, I use the parallel of everything I have when God asked anybody to do something big in Scripture, they did it little by little on his time. Even when the Israelites went into the wilderness, he said, you're gonna go in a little bit because if you go in too fast, the wildlife will outnumber you. And I tell these guys, you don't ever want your skills and your talent to take you to a place that your character can't keep you. And so sometimes, man, it's okay to take a while. It's okay to be a late aid, it's okay because what happens is God loves us enough if we're following his path. Sometimes he'll withhold stuff from us until he knows we're capable to receive it well. And so I tell guys, hey, if you're taking longer or a gap here or whatever's going on, like, hey, just rest in the fact that when you get that opportunity, you will be ready for it. And sometimes we chase that exposure. You see it a lot, so hey, I got the opportunity. Oh, but I have not been doing what it takes to excel in that opportunity. It could be a byproduct of that.

SPEAKER_02

Um, Hebrews 12, 1 says, The run with perseverance, the race marked out for us. Like God, we know that God has plans for us, and the Bible says plans to prosper and to succeed, right? And Paul talks about running your race in a way to win. He doesn't talk about it's all about winning. He says how you go about it is important. Um, I happened to watch a video on Instagram this morning of a a kid that played for a national organization and he had 11 D1 offers after hitting a home run at East Cobb. And he realized at that moment when he got home or back to the hotel that those 11 offers didn't fill the void that he had in his heart. And at that moment, he had he decided, according to his testimony, he decided, I'm not this baseball life isn't for me, I'm going into ministry. And and now he's on Instagram and he has 50,000 followers and he's preaching Jesus all the time. But that hole in his heart, you know, was filled by Christ. It was blanketed by baseball or success in baseball. And he realized that at that moment. So how you run that race, you know, that God's giving you the ability to run is important, right? And to sometimes you gotta persevere through the hard times, and then you gotta also obviously give him the glory and the praise in the good times, right? So rest, recovery, and patience in a result-driven culture. How Christ gives us the ability to rest, he gives us the ability to have peace in our lives. So, how would you explain this driven culture that we're in and how Christ helps that?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, well, I'll go one and then I want to hear what you get, especially in the strength world. I think the biggest thing I've learned, it this sounds crazy, but the biggest chase ever was the Israelites trying to get away from the Egyptians, right? And I think a verse I go back to all the time was when the cloud moved, they moved. And when the cloud stayed still, they stayed still. And I thought it's crazy. Like they're running for their life. And God's like, oh, you don't need to stop. What? I bet they were like, dude, they wanted to keep running. We've been trying to get out of there 400 years. And it's not that we're the Israelites, I'm not trying to take that out of context, but you're right. All through scripture, whatever God was teaching you guys to do, you gotta rest because it's like with a tree. There's the biggest oak trees grow four weeks out of the year. The other 48, the root system sustaining the growth. You you gotta stop and rest, recover, reflect, because you gotta be able to put your hands around where you're at. If you're just growing, right, tree's gonna get too tall. So it's hard for all of us, but dude, that rest and just reflection is key.

SPEAKER_02

It's huge because you know if you're driven to do something, you feel like somebody else is always getting ahead. When it might be time to take a day off from the weight room, it might be time to take a day off from throwing or get away from the from the wood bat, get away from the bat for a little bit. that just to to uh rest, to recycle the to reflect about what's happened and then jump back into it.

SPEAKER_03

Y'all see that harder for guys? Like d is it harder for guys, hey, it's the time to just r rest like guys are just scared somebody's catching up.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, especially I mean, probably at the youth and the collegiate level you see it for sure is like especially if there's a struggle. I gotta do more, gotta do more. Um instead of just let me take a step back and reflect at what I've been doing along this process or am I just running myself into the ground? We've all had those teammates that they can keep going but we've also had those teammates that don't do much and they have success. So like that's kind of part of and that's one thing I teach a lot of the weight room is you've got to understand who you are as a person. The weight room is a development system of the human body. Yes, we are training them to be a little bit better at baseball but more than anything I want them to be the most resilient human they can be. And part of that is teaching and giving them knowledge of understanding when they need to take time from themselves, get away from their sport, slow their brain down a little bit and just relax and recover. So a lot of times especially once you get later into the high school years it's a it's a push to the finish and I've got to get these things done but if you keep the main thing the main thing of I'm creating daily habits that are going to ultimately better myself as a human it'll take you a little bit further than if I'm just training to be the best baseball player I could be.

SPEAKER_02

So how should coaches balance winning with developing young men and when I say developing young men I'm not talking about necessarily on the field I think that it is when you have an opportunity to to be a part of a uh a young person's life and the direction they're going it's a great calling and so you know how does coaching to win a ball game how do I balance that with developing young men in that moment?

SPEAKER_03

I think the best thing to do is to talk Jesus on one hand and then cuss everybody out on the other I think that's just what it does. No I think the biggest balance y'all know more about this than me but I see is it's all about the relationship and where it's coming from because I think when you realize guys realize hey he's trying to make me better. My daughter's a swimmer her coaches are tough on her more recently and I finally said you're at the age and the skill level now where it's not their job to make you feel good. It's their job to get you better. But it's also to develop men. So I think when you can build a relationship with a man earn his respect and then you let him know I'm going to ride you because I'm not going to let you perform under the standard in which I think you can perform too people don't know that they don't care what you know until they know that you're interested relationship is obviously important.

SPEAKER_02

You brought up about you know the opportunity as a parent um you're I'm assuming you're trusting in that coach as she's or he's riding your daughter swimming um but if you don't trust them how much more difficult is that yeah that's that's hard.

SPEAKER_03

And my dad look he knew more about baseball than anybody I ever played for. But he always instilled hey no matter what like when you're out there you're the coach is running the show not me and I respect that about him.

SPEAKER_02

But it was harder and and and so for him when there were times hey he would he would always respect the coach he'd respect their leadership but he wasn't a low mower dad huh no he wasn't paving the way for you no he was he wasn't but he would get me out you know and but he would you know we would work on stuff in private and he'd correct that but I think he always had that respect but it is as a parent if the guy if it's harder when you don't trust the skill level I I say that I say that in tongue in cheek like everybody's always heard about the helicopter mom but there is the lawnmower dad as well there there is and and there's so much growth that I feel like kids aren't getting the opportunity to to grow from and benefit from today because parents hate to see their kids fail. They hate to see their kids have to persevere but when you allow that as a parent because kids are resilient they they are young adults are resilient they'll figure a way out but if you go figure it out for them you're um give you not allowing them the ability to fight through that you're taking away from them you actually are you're taking away from them if you don't give them the them the the ability to persevere through a tough time with a tough coach or a tough situation.

SPEAKER_00

And if you if you look at your kid and completely separate from the product of like how he responds to failure like you're creating a disconnection that like within a thermostat that you probably controlled a little bit. Like your kid's uniquely your kid he has like a lot of things he's one of one like he's not you he's not your wife but like at the end of the day like in developing him like his response to things even if you can't draw a direct parallel as to why like it was cultivated as he was being brought up in your home. So you could get frustrated all you want with how your kid's responding but like whether that's a disconnect of like receiving like encouragement, love and it's like not pressure to do it perfect but like if you can have the humility to enter where he's at versus critique him from the outside because you are living a more comfortable less performative life like this is the biggest kid the thing or the biggest thing that kid does in high school sometimes is like compete in sports. You know what I mean? So it's like when they fail at that like it's the biggest thing they've ever done. And it's like he's in a very different circumstance and chapter to where like I just think meeting kids where they're at and walking with them versus like reprimanding their attitude at like surface level to be like we don't act like that like you can have a standard and walk with a per with your child in humility. So it's like I think there's a level of responsibility that doesn't get taken there.

SPEAKER_02

I would say there's greater opportunity to grow from failure than there is from success. I remember multiple times where I responded from failure. I only remember a couple of times where I was having success and I actually grew from it. I remember I hit a home run at Mara when I was 11 years old and we're half the way home and my dad looked at me and he's like hey who who gets the glory and I said huh? He said who gets the glory and it triggered like the Lord does. The Lord gave me the ability to play right that's that's one moment that I remember a growth moment in success. There are many times where I struggled and my par my dad didn't say you know it's gonna be okay your coach was wrong or it's gonna be okay like we'll find another team or it's gonna no he made they per made me persevere through it and because like I said earlier kids are resilient they'll find a way they'll go get on the stairclimber for an extra 30 minutes they'll hit the weight room a little bit more like because nobody likes failure but when the parent or or an uncle an aunt anybody enables that uh or takes away that opportunity to grow from from failure you're actually hindering the kid oh and that's the clash with the coaches because they're trying to take that failure and and produce it it you're right I people say what are you talking about with as a chaplain 80% of what I talk about is response to adversity that happens on the field and in their life.

SPEAKER_03

That's what we talk about. That's 80 hey this has happened it ain't I tell people what happened to you may or not be in your control but what you are responsible for what is next. And so 80% of it and that as a parent is hard. But when you turn your kids loose they roll the balls out and you see stuff happen you see them getting chewed out you see them not doing well it's a challenge but when you just step back and say let's let this process play out dude I just any of my kids 80% of the lessons we talk about are what they learned playing ball. Hey this happened how'd you respond you saw that person do this and so I'd probably be a bad parent if it wasn't for sports. I don't know what we would talk about. But uh but you're right man as parents it's good to let that clash happen.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah you see in the weight room the guys who I think it's like the 21 day rule do something for 21 days and it'll become a good habit right or do something for 21 days and it become a bad habit as well 21 days like it's not easy those first two or three weeks in the weight room but you probably see a greater change in in kids' lives after three weeks in the weight room and it's almost like the body responds, the light bulb turns on and then that real growth happens afterwards. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I think the the baseline to it though is what's the driving factor to this I mean we've talked about it before and it should ultimately be to better yourself and maximize yourself as a person. Not because you're chasing this unattainable potentially goal of being an MLB player. It's the very base layer of why am I doing this? What are the values I have in in leading me to do this not this fake motivation that people always talk about that you know I feel super motivated right now to better myself it's like no just consistently give me your best each day. Whether your best is 50% of what you usually are because you're fatigued you're tired or whatever it is but your your intent behind it and your value system going into it is leading to the the change not this fake bravado of motivation that everyone says and I've got this drive in me now that wants to be better. It's no because that will fade motivation motivation will fade but if you have consistency built into your life and values built into your life it will always be your base to kind of keep you traveling forward that cliche rise and grind or no days off like that goes against the word of God.

SPEAKER_00

I know but like I'm gonna counter it a little bit of like you think that's the problem we're running into right now as a generation is like you work too much. I think that's the work I think they think I believe that there's a perception that there's a look at me I got up in this snapshot work of like you're owed something for your work but if like true industriousness produced out of calling is I don't care who sees it I'm doing it because I believe that like I'm on a journey and this is like what God has for my life and it's overflow and like hard work. I remember when I was younger I used to think I was the hardest worker and I probably was in some capacity like I worked really hard but like when things didn't come I was like why do I work hard? I'm not getting exactly what I want when I want it and then when I entered relationship with um the Lord in college I like began to work harder not for love not out of fear but from love and I still walk that line for sure but like I began to not even think of myself as a hard worker I began to show up and like pour out wherever I was fill up pour out and it's just like if the byproduct's hard work great but like it's not the point. Hard work isn't a means to an end either hard work doesn't get you where you want to go. It's like God gets you where God wants you to go and it's where you want to go whether you align with him or not like you're going to hit a crossroads of encounter whether you're walking with him now whether you're kind of walking a line or you're completely off track like you're not gonna leave in my perspective like you're not gonna leave this side of heaven without like having some encounters with the Lord he's gonna interrupt you.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah the you know I think that when you have then this goes a little deeper a lot deeper because most people don't want to talk about Satan they want to talk about the Lord they want to talk about Jesus want to talk about the Holy Spirit and yeah we should but when you understand when you first know the calling that the Lord has for you but then and then you understand that the enemy who the enemy is in fighting against that then you can wage war the right way right you're not doing it in your own might and power you understand who you are and the calling on your life and where you are presently and working from that position right and then you can combat the uh we can wage war against you know not against flesh and blood but against principalities, powers, rule against the enemy. Right? And that's a whole topic that the church and most people don't even talk about waging war against the enemy is a real thing.

SPEAKER_03

Well the enemy and the enemy you your point needs to be expounded upon for kid because what people aren't understanding is great what you said is perfect. We don't want to work just to to work we want what we get out of it. And what I learned I've been married 15 years it took me 10 to figure it out I was doing the right things for what I could get in return. And when my spouse or kids were not responding the way I thought they should it made me mad and I didn't want to do it anymore. And then over the last five years through my journey with with Christ and the men around me I'm like no I unload the car and serve my family and go get gas and I'm faithful to my wife and I come home at night and I don't drink and I raise my kids and I work hard when I don't want to because that's what God calls me to do. Regardless of the rewards regardless of the present and when you could do that behind closed doors regardless what you're gonna get in return dude it changes the perspective man.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah because he cultivates that's what like when I first started my Christian journey it's like I thought like we were building this like fortress of like sitting on a hill like shooting down and it's like what you find out is like no he just layers you up with armor to be able to take more bullets and to empathize with more people and to connect with more people it's like it's not about like if I follow God like my kids will respect me. It's like if I follow God like my kids can disrespect me 50,000 more times and I'll keep showing up and loving them until God actually like produces the change because like we are like vessels of what the Lord is doing and we can partake in his work but ultimately like we don't wield the power of like sovereignty. We are like his spirit is at work in us in a way that like he effectively decides. He says yes he says no he directs us so it's like the only way that I can be effective is like just to keep showing up and being available.

SPEAKER_03

Doing the right thing because he's the one rewarding us right I mean it's his the reward and that's spot on man I think if a young dude can grasp that this it it it's they're gonna be dangerous in a good way. I really do.

SPEAKER_02

I think what I'm hearing is um God is love right and God wants the best for us right and but because he is love and he lives in us we should allow his love to flow outward towards the people we come into connection with and what greater opportunity do we have in youth sports the amount of people that we all come into connection or relationship with to be able to share the love of Christ and sometimes well love has got the word love the definition of love has gotten um misconstrued right love is not allowing someone just to do what they want to do and I'm almost going to keep loving them. Sometimes love is tough right sometimes love speaking a word that to someone that may challenge them to make a different decision right sometimes love is giving a kid a game off because you know that he needs rest right he knows to get he needs we know he needs to get away from the grind and sometimes love is allowing that pitcher to persevere when he's struggling on the mound.

SPEAKER_00

I think see what like yes exactly and like I think people connect love to like outcome too much. Like love is conviction like you can only if you make all your decisions how you treat someone how you love someone based on outcome it produces a thought process that becomes extremely anxious because you're making decisions based on something that's completely out of your control. Like we do not control outcomes. God might invite us into understanding a piece of like prophetic outcome and we can't grasp the whole picture but like we can only make decisions like in relationship with God, daily dependence like overflowing from conviction of what we believe is best regardless of what the outcome produces because like we can do that in love. But like like you're saying like when people measure how well we love them based on the outcome of happiness or the outcome of even like effectiveness from a material standpoint or worldly standpoint like maybe that wasn't the point. Maybe I can love you well and this could fail because of that decision because it was supposed to to bring you to your knees to bring you to desperation to bring us to a position where like God's enlightening both of us to something we couldn't see and it's like once we think we're there we've like we've missed it. Like we're continually like dependent receiving everything like Christianity as we walk toward um like see encountering him on like the day he brings us home it's like we are very much in process and becoming more aware of our desperation for him even to wake up and breathe. And I know that sounds crazy but like it counters everything I expected my walk to be when I started if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03

When you love to if they pick up on the fact that you're loving them for an outcome too then they they know that that's fake that's transactional that's why with me I mean doing what I do I I mean majority of people I'd say it's 50-50 people receptive to to what I do but I've learned I'm just gonna love these guys regardless. I'm I've called to love these guys and point them to the truth regardless. And it's amazing how 10 years down the road a guy that never said a word to me will pick up the phone and call. And that's not what I'm after but it's the same thing hey dude I'm gonna love you whether you play forever or never play it whether you like me whether you don't want to hear the word dude I'm gonna love you. And I've even got to the point where the dudes that are the most that lack the most receptivist or maybe the most resistant I just made a point to quietly lean into them even more not for an outcome because but you I've learned most of those guys they just want to be loved they just want to be heard they want to be loved. And man when you could start loving people irregardless of how they return it the freedom is it's it's just a freedom yeah and it's the trend like you we need deep transformation to do that.

SPEAKER_00

I encourage you to like take things that you don't experience that you know are good and try yeah try to put them in play. Like this isn't like faith isn't the absence of trying like it it is and you're probably not going to get it right sometimes and like in order to be effective like God will have to like more so like transform your heart give you take that heart of stone give you that heart of flesh and continue to do that in more and more areas of your life and I I'm sure we all continue to encounter new sin that we were just like you mean like I'm still not fixed like fully like I'm not perfect still we have this fleshly love if you sit too long in the place of like I'm doing pretty good like yeah well we'll give it another couple weeks. Like I'm sure there's a circumstance out there I'll let you reveal your heart but like I said it's like if God the ability to love others like I found myself desiring less self-focus more um the fruit of what even that meant before I even understood it and it like to your point earlier it's like the amount of time that took like even though I knew what God desired from me I had no idea how to do it. So I had to be patient in the fact that I don't love others well and I desire to and God's going to have to do this in me on his timeline. And it's like we can know the answer to the test but like how it's going to happen and the steps it's gonna take and the timeline it's on like being able to receive that in faith it's almost like we expect ourselves to get ourselves there before God takes us there. And it's back to the original point. It's like trusting God in faith while you're still broken and you don't like what you see in the mirror.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah walking by faith is is not easy I I as you were talking I was thinking like I we would rather as coaches deal with a kid who has a little bit of wildfire and pull him back than a kid who doesn't have any fire at all and try to pull it out of him, right? And sometimes that wildfire can get you in trouble. You get out ahead of the Lord or you know it's I always take the motto it's better to be a little bit slow and follow the Lord than it is to get out ahead of him you know and you get hurt. But that long-term vision versus short-term success is not easy. It's you know patience and persevering in that patience of um the lack of success in the short term understanding the long term and trusting those abilities he's given us um is is so difficult sometimes.

SPEAKER_03

It is I remember talking about the fire thing so when I coached a lot of kids play not to mess up now. Right. I did that too I played not to mess up and my mind changed. Anyway I was we were playing a good team and I started dating this girl that used to date the start Picture for them. Big game. I went two for three that night, and I came up to win the game with bases loaded, and then they put in a lefty, and uh I struck out to end the game. And my buddy on the on deck was like, dude, I'm so glad that was you and up there and not me. And I remember I got mad, and I always thought, I said, my mantra when I started coaching was I'd rather strike out to end the game than be left on any day. So on that long-term vision, I was coaching middle school, all these guys try not to mess up. I had this one dude named Johan, love him, put him on blast here. But I always said, we're gonna be aggressive, don't be scared to mess up. So he got less timid over the years, and he started running the bases hard. And I said, we're gonna run the bags like wild dogs, right? Or playing a championship game. He hits one in the corner, first pitch. I'm stopping him at third, he just blows through it, gets thrown out at home to start the game. And he was like, dude, I was like, Johan, you know what, dude? I said, that right there, I said, if you live your life like you just did that, I'll be proud of you. So I said, you blow through the sun. I said, yeah, am I mad you got thrown out to start the game? Yeah, I look like an idiot right now. I was like, but but that's what I wanted to see, that transformation as a man, to be a guy to come out and crash the first pitch, try to run all the way home. I'll take that, and we lost the game by one. Uh so I was still mad at you, Johan, if you're listening. Uh but that long, but right, that long-term vision, I was like, dude, I've been teaching Johan to live with no regrets and to turn the bags like a wild dog and to not be worried about messing up all year. I can't get mad that he did that.

SPEAKER_02

Right. No, I talk to people all the time, and I make mound visits sometimes and say, hey, in two months, if not less than that, nobody's even gonna remember this, what just happened right now. I had a pitching coach in AAA with the Braves walk out and he's like, hey, whatever happens right now, it does it's not gonna affect the price of beans in China. And I'm like, what? And he goes, just relax, you know, enjoy the ride, be be present in this moment and trust in the ability God's given you, right? Yeah, that what's gonna happen in in the long term, you can't get out thinking about the future too far. You can't dwell in the past, right? Just being in the present, it's not easy, but that's that's the answer. You mean the Braves don't care if you went 0 for 4 at your 8U tournament? They don't. I mean they don't. Okay. And those honestly, like for everybody listening, like those who make a uh a jump later, those who uh hit puberty later, those who who all of a sudden, you know, they weren't good at 1213, or they those are the ones that play the longest. Right? It's not about having success right now. Do I want to have success right now? Absolutely. We talked about winning, and and I'm all I want to win in everything I do, and it's not just on the field, it's in relationships, it's in you know business, every try, but it's not really about the winning, it's about how you go about it, right? Your process, your consistency, and how you go about that preparation to win is more important than the actual winning. And when there honestly, when there wasn't a process, when there wasn't work put into it, when you didn't have to persevere, the winning wasn't even that great. Right? So those are the things you have to work for are the most rewarding.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and like just like to your point, like responding to life. Like there's like this real element of preparation that sets you up, but then like most of it will be responding to what actually happens in the moment. So like you can parallel it to a kid in a cage that has a really good feel and a really good day, and like is in a really good place, and he can't wait to take it to the game. And all he's thinking about is that cage session, and he's just doing the things that he did A plus B equals C. And it's just like over and over again. And it's like you get 80% process, 20% present, and you miss everything that's happening because like that's the first time that moment ever existed, and you were you were only 20% there, versus like, hey, you did a lot of good things, like let it show up. Go in the game, respond to what you see, and you might find out that like there's more growth for you by continuing to be refined in each moment. But like this day and age, it's just like getting somewhere, holding something, and like whatever it takes to produce an outcome over and over again. Like, if I'm doing well, it's about continuing to do well. If I drop, it's bad. And it's just like too simple of a formula with like how complex this ride is. Like, you're not just a player, you're not um just a mind, you're not just a like spirit, you're not just anything. Like you are the you encompass all of those things right now, and it's really important that all of those pieces are being like tended to and stewarded. So it's like being patient with adversity because it's producing character inside in you, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02

You kind of got ahead of me there. No, I'm sorry. What has baseball taught you about life, faith, and character? I mean, I think it's the greatest game to teach about life, it's the greatest game to teach you about character. But um, I always say we know uh God's a huge baseball fan first, and because he said in the beginning in Genesis, I mean, how would he be a baseball fan, right? Win the beginning one.

SPEAKER_03

How has baseball taught you about life, faith, and character? I got a question I want to ask you about that is so let's say it's a tight game and Jesus is on first. There's one out. Late late in the game. They hit a ground ball up the middle. If it's clean and within the rules, do you think Jesus goes in hard to break up the double play? Now let's talk just in his humanity. Obviously, he could float over, he could disappear, he could die and come back. We know that. But in his humanity, you think he goes in hard to break it up clean within the rules, or not?

SPEAKER_00

I think he breaks it up in the perfect way. You could ever break up a double play, but there's no way he's avoiding contact. No, I don't know. That guy, that guy gets in there. You think you think he gets in there?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, he gets in there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. He's definitely dirty. Yeah. He's getting dirty jersey. Yeah, he's getting dirty.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, the unblemished lamb, he will come out, but it's just on the pants. But what's it taught about me? I mean, I think the two biggest things I've learned is what you said, how do you respond to adversity uh over my years in the game? The guys that can bounce back are the guys that that succeed. And sometimes we've made it so much about recruitment and stuff like that. I think the biggest thing I've learned is extracting the camaraderie among the guys and the life lessons that you learn. But I think the biggest thing I've learned, this is obscure from baseball. Some days in life you don't have your best stuff, but you don't get the day off.

SPEAKER_00

I that's I love that. That's the rest piece of like I wanted to kind of make the counterpoint earlier. It's like you gotta put I can't hear you. Wow. I usually don't do that. Shout out to doubted athletes who tried to coach me in this, but it's like goes back to the rest piece of like when like there's rest and then there's um and then there's comfort. It's like there's times where like you can be like if you're in the middle of a war and you don't get to call time out and be like, hey guys, like I really need to process and work through this right now. So if we could just put this on hold, it's like if God didn't allow a window and there's no window, like then keep pressing. And then like there will be a stream, there will be a pause, and it will probably show up in a physical way. But like there's seasons where you're going to extend yourself long beyond your capacity to sustain yourself. Oh, yeah. And that's where don't get confused that you are not entitled to rest, you are gifted rest, and it is a promise, and our rest comes from him.

SPEAKER_02

He's not give you rest.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, we do not wield his rest as a weapon of entitlement against him, if that makes sense. So it's all like goes back to this. Well, that throws off my whole equation. It's like that's the point. Like, this is daily dependence. There's no formula to it.

SPEAKER_02

Ultimately, when you're prepared for something. I'll sorry to interrupt. No, you're good. Ultimately, when you're prepared for the moment you're you that you're in, you will um you will respond, you'll be proactive versus when you're not prepared, you have to be reactive. And that's that's a problem in life itself. That's kind of what I've learned. Like the times that I've been physically fit, mentally ready, prepared for who I'm playing against or the situation I'm in, a lot of times success will come out of that because I'm prepared.

SPEAKER_03

We think confidence is just confident. Confidence is not confident, confidence is I've done what I need to do to perform. When nobody that's why I'm confident. And so, yeah, that's the key. Oh, you gotta be confident. You gotta be the kind you're confident if you're ready.

SPEAKER_02

And that's that's so Romans 5, 3 through 5 talks about suffering produces perseverance, character, and hope. Yet, many times parents try to alleviate that suffering or alleviate that, you know, issue on the field, or you know, lack of production on the field when that might be a time for a parent to step back and and let the kid figure it out.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Right?

SPEAKER_00

I mean that that's that's a time for absolutely. I think like we I know I keep mentioning discernment, um, but when your kid is struggling, the reality of the circumstance becomes like it is almost it almost tests a parent's faith in a way that is more difficult than enduring your own struggle because you're deeply connected to it, but you're completely not in control of it, and you're now becoming more and more aware of your lack of control and your lack of ability to protect them and save them, and I think it produces a very difficult heart posture for parents to just sit in because of the discomfort. But like what parents are experiencing in that is a deeper level of dependence, of like your goal is to comfort him, and there's a way to do that, but like your goal is to not bubble wrap him and finding out like what God desires from your role of like as a steward and a as a parent of that person, but like your child belongs to him, yeah. So, like you're not playing the role, you're playing a role.

SPEAKER_03

Having to let my kids fail than I did when I was their age failing. That's the best.

SPEAKER_02

That's a walk of faith in itself. It's not just the walk of faith from the from the player, it's the walk of faith from the parent and all those involved. Um, so I'm gonna hit you guys with and before I go to there, these little quick three-minute blitz, I got some quick questions, quick answers. Um, we talk about hearing from the Lord and being led by the Lord, and the number one way is by reading his word. And I think a lot of people are like, you know, where do I start? There's 66 books, and it's you know, so many pages long, depending on the font or the print. Just by reading one verse a day, it will start to change your life. Right? It'll grow you closer to him, and he can speak to you through just one verse a day. Just start somewhere. Start in Genesis, start in John, don't start in Revelation. Um, so And don't worry about getting it right.

SPEAKER_00

Don't just go in there.

SPEAKER_02

The word, the there's an anointing on the word that will absolutely change your life. So, with that being said, three-minute blitz, at the end of your career, what will actually matter? Rim's most recent, I think JT was probably from then. My career ended in 08, your career ended in 74. Yeah, my career ended longer ago than I've been here. So at the end of your career, what what actually matters?

SPEAKER_03

At the end of my career, as far as telling guys about Jesus, then I'll say at the end of my career, I always say if I'm laying on my deathbed, here's what I want to be true. That was my next question. You're jumping off. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. At the end of my career, I want to know how did I take advantage of every opportunity to lead somebody to Christ that God put in front of me, regardless of convenient, inconvenient, difficult, costly, whatever. At the end of my career, I want to make sure that I stewarded the opportunities from God the way he wanted me to. JT?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'd say end of my career, the playing career would be that he had relationship relationships with almost everyone on the team, if not everyone on the team.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, good teammate's so important. Oh, yeah. So important.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think it's like as simple as like love God and love others. Like God puts you there for those people, for you and for those people. So it's like the main thing, it like it might be through the vehicle what you're doing, but it is always about like him and his church, which is us.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I love Micah 6 8. It says to act justly, love mercy, and walk humbly, uh, obviously before the Lord, but in those you're doing life with. How do you want to be remembered as a player or person?

SPEAKER_03

Uh my dad taught me four things growing up. He said, never give up on Jesus, never give up on your marriage, never give up on your kids, don't work a job, live a calling. That's great. But I want to do those four things, and that's what I'm gonna be remembered for. I love it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think my my biggest ones, especially with the job itself, is do people think I serve them for their ultimate good as a person and care for them deeply, um, not just on the baseball side of things.

SPEAKER_00

I think at a high level, my I strive toward it sometimes, which I shouldn't, but I want to believe like the way John says, like, he's the disciple that Jesus loved. I think like getting to the identity of like really believing that like I'm a disciple that Jesus loved in a way of like I can live from that place, and I I hope that produces the fruit of what God intended without limiting or taking away from, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I like to talk about priorities and and when your priorities are in order, you know, it it produces a peace in your life, you know, God first, family second, um, your career third as an adult, obviously your your academics as a kid, and then your hobbies or or other things after that. But ultimately, faith, family, and impacting those people's lives over the accolades that, you know, the short 30-minute reel on Instagram, or the you know, the video of you hitting a home run or striking somebody out or being committed to a powerful or getting drafted by a major league baseball organization. Like those things are important. God He gave you the us the abilities to accomplish these things in life, but they're much more rewarding, satisfying, and eternal when our priorities are in order. God first, family second, your career, and what God's called you to do, and then not allowing these other things down the line to affect those first three things in life. So thanks for joining us today. Um, I'd love to stick around and have you tell us a couple more funny stories that you've told me in the past.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. There's um like uh when I fought Ric Flair's son. Yeah, that was a good one. Go ahead. Uh I'll just save it. I want to leave the people wanting more, not less. So I need an encore, and I'll and we'll just turn the mic on and go to work. We're gonna do this again for sure. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02

I appreciate you guys. Uh we really really appreciate you all listening to live at the show. We'll be back each and every week. Thanks again to Lincoln Loing, ASOF Talks. You want to give your um Instagram and your your Lincoln Loing, man.

SPEAKER_03

Lincoln C O L N L A W I N G LincolnLoying.com, Lincoln Long on Instagram, uh or wherever else you want to find me, uh glad to hear from you.

SPEAKER_02

Put it in the description. Thanks to Data Athletes for um the filming today, and uh we'll we'll see you soon.