Art, Ambition, And The Permission To Change

What if the life you planned wasn’t the life that fit—and the pivot turned out better than your original dream? We sit down with artist and writer Colleen Hall to trace a fiercely intentional journey from bookish beginnings to bold murals in celebrity homes and royal spaces. Colleen opens up about the moment she realized she needed a “permission slip” to put herself back on the list, how a three-week retreat in rural France quieted the imaginary jury in her head, and why courage often looks like a commitment on your calendar that you refuse to break.

We dig into the practical side of a creative career: building partnerships that lead to unexpected doors, delivering perfection under pressure, and finding play inside constraints. Colleen also shares how injury nudged her back to writing, the power of community in breaking isolation, and a travel philosophy that stitches beauty abroad into rituals at home. Think Venice and Florence followed by a Tuscan villa where days end with writing prompts, sketchbooks, and long dinners that reset your senses.

Parents will find a masterclass in advocacy as Colleen walks through supporting high-achieving kids with very different needs. From early testing and accommodations for learning differences to “brag sheets,” ACT vs. SAT strategy, and the difference between need-based aid and merit scholarships, she maps a clear path through a confusing system. The through line is intention: notice the patterns, design the plan, and keep adjusting.

If you’ve ever felt split between who you were supposed to be and who you’re becoming, this conversation offers both compass and company. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs a nudge, and leave a review with the one permission you’re ready to grant yourself next.

Transcript

Setting The Stage: Colleen’s Journey

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Kristen Krupp, welcome to Unfolding with KK. For over 20 years, I have sat across from dining room and kitchen room tables with clients, hundreds and hundreds of people. And over the years, I have learned so many lessons as to how people's lives unfold. It was changing me client by client as I met different people. And I wanted to share the stories that I have learned throughout my career and my life. Welcome to Unfolding. So you are I'm super excited that you agreed to do this, first of all, because it's not every day we someone asks you to sit down and talk about your life and be on camera.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

I know I s I love this kind of thing. Like we've talked about totally. This is so exciting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

You I'm excited that you're excited. I am. Um I just hope I do it. You're when I was sitting down, I've known you, I was thinking back, it's got to be 11 years.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Or 12. Because Andrews is 10. You did my nursery. I was obviously pregnant. Right. And um, so it's it's hard to believe it's been that amount of time.

unknown 1:13

I know.

Credentials, Collaborations, And Quiet Grit

SPEAKER_00 1:14

And I have not refreshed myself on your resume in years and years and years. So to kick it off, I know it's a little not the most important thing. But let me let me just let me just recap what what's going on today. So when you stop and think about it, so here is here you are. So you're an internationally sought-after artist with work, think about this, hanging in uh artists' homes, very big celebrities, um, work in children's hospitals and public spaces. You've had creative collaborations that has landed your work in big stars like Beyonce and Jay-Z homes, Mark Wahlberg, Sylvester Stallone, to say a few. You have work hanging in royal families, you have uh work and partnerships that also um has your work in major brands like Target, bringing your artwork into homes across our country. And I rarely have to look at my phone for this, but this is how much is going on. In addition to all of this, you have uh you're a TED Talk speaker, you're a recipient of the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts The Muse Award, and you are a woman whose life has been shaped by deep listening, imagination, and intention. You've been married to your husband Jeff for 30 years, who is also an artist, who is the head of the esteemed art program at Maggie Walker Governor School, and you guys have built an incredible life together. Outside of being a writer and an avid traveler and a gardener, you've also raised two incredible women who have gone on to the University of Richmond and Yale University. We're talking big stuff. But you are someone who has quietly built a route, a life rooted in creativity, courage, and care. But what makes you truly extraordinary to me, it's not just what you've created, it's how you've lived.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

And so, you, my friend, this is Colleen Hall, and we're sitting down today to talk about something that is near and dear to me, and that is that we are always unfolding, that we are always changing. So you and I met 11, 12 years ago. Um, and I was working in real estate, of course. So many of my guests, we have a theme through real estate, of course. You later went on to paint my son's nursery for me. Um and over the years we've just become really good friends. And you're like my checkup from the neck up when I get together. Oh my god, and you're mine. No question about it.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

I I wish I could schedule you every week because you bumped me up and thank you for that. It's humbling all that you said. And um well, but you didn't do it, you did it. No, but I you know, I feel the same way in terms of just the admiration for what you've done. But yeah, I think um I can't believe it's been 11 or 12 years.

Roots Of Creativity And Family Influence

SPEAKER_00 4:36

It's really incredible to see how fast time goes by. And you've kind of warned me that it would, being both being mothers, and um, I believed you, but um I'm just really grateful that you're here. So walk me through. So I want to just dive in. Yeah. Um some other things that I that I didn't say, but I know um, you know, you yourself not only are your daughters, and I know you're gonna be shy about this, but you're incredibly bright, full ride to U of R yourself. Um, your sister is also an Ivy Leaguer. You went on after college, you lived in Europe, another big scholar um over the over the ocean. Where um where do you did you recognize early on that you had not only an academic gift, but a gift in art?

SPEAKER_01 5:42

Um, yes, and I would say one of the little side branches, as an as a young person, I was uh very motivated to be a good student. And part of that came from the fact my parents, both being in the education field, my dad was a teacher for 38 years in public school, and my mother was a teacher assistant. We were motivated by the fact there was no college fund. So aside from being a curious learner, uh it was actually one of those motivating sources of like, okay, you know, if you want to go to college, which it was never a question, we would go to college. We were very, we came from a family that was over-educated, under-earners, people who went and worked in education, but were very very smart people, but they had chosen different, it was never about the money. Um, but yes, I was motivated to want to, you know, achieve, and um, that was extra little kick in the pants, probably, um, knowing that that path would be through achieving, but also maybe through scholarships and or and or financial aid. And again, I always give credit to my wonderful big sister for figuring a lot of this system out, which is a system that it takes a lot of knowledge to navigate, and it's different now than it was, you know, 30 some odd years ago, but it still takes a lot of effort, and uh, she was the lead on that. I always give her credit for that. Um, I would not have known where to begin. Um, but yes, and and that's for the academic part. The art part always came. My grandmother, my my father's mother, who I called Grandma Phelan, uh, and her name was Helen, which is why my youngest daughter is Helen. Um, she was a spirit of nature. She she was an artist, she was interested in science, and I always say, as so many of us can with our female ancestors, if she'd been born at a different time, I wonder what she would have achieved in a professional stance. Not that she didn't achieve enough as being a mother and you know, wife. But but she was born in Brooklyn in 1897, I believe. And um and she did go to college, which was almost unheard of. She didn't get to finish because she had to drop out when uh there was a uh her father had a um something happened with his job, and so she needed to go uh drop out and go to uh work. And then she did go on to work though in a science lab with people who went on to become very famous scientists. She got exposed to scarlet fever and all this stuff. But aside from that, aside from that, so she was a very smart um scientist and had a always was interested in science through her whole life. She lived to 94.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

So a long life.

Wearing Labels: Scholar Versus Artist

SPEAKER_01 8:26

A long life, and um, but she was always an artist um too, and in her younger life, around 16, 17, she painted a lot. She was doing oil paintings. I think she might have I don't know if she had lessons, or I don't know enough, unfortunately. But I have a few of her paintings, and the family does, and they are cherished. And of course, one of them, ironically, is of uh a St. Bernard dog. So instant like, you know, mojo with me being a dog fanatic. But um, yeah, so she was an artist and she always inspired me and she had a certain flair, and I still aspire to capture her flair later in life. In fact, I forgot in my purse is a bangle. I she always wore bangle bracelets and she in her later life. She was not, she kind of grew into her back to her artistic self later in life after my grandfather passed. Um, she would wear kind of expressive little hats, and I don't know, there's just the way she would tip her hat and just her she was just an artist through and through. And um I feel far too practical in comparison, but I'm aspiring to it. Um anyway, so yeah, that was early seeds of and my father, so her she had two sons, and my dad was the baby, um, and he also had a flair for art. He did his artwork doing like um kind of more cartoons and uh kind of caricature, and that was sort of his way of expressing. But he did do realistic drawings and stuff early life, but later on he kind of enjoyed doing that and sports things. So, yeah, so it kind of came through that line of the family, the art uh piece. But so I I always knew I wanted to be well, I wanted to achieve, and this is funny, you know, just add living on the unexpected turns in life. I was always defined in my mind, and this has still been an issue with why I've had a struggle for you know, hearing your compliments and hearing about being a successful artist, because it was never the plan. It's far too practical for that. Right, and that's the funny twist. Right, because I I, my head, am still the one that was defined by my academics, not the art part. And then we'll get into you know, life took a little turn and and here I am. But but so so it's been hard for me to wear that label. Saying one's an artist is almost saying like you're a fairy princess. I mean, to be honest, because I thought it was that kind of crazy.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

I guess that's I can relate to you with being a real estate agent. It's not it's um for me, it's always been like a second thought or a less than not something like I wanted to go to school to be an attorney. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

And you had it with the law, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

So it's yeah, I can relate to that on stage. It was not the levels. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

No. And it was not how I had defined myself. And that was picture of, you know, my my definition of what I was going to do was so practical based. It was, you know, based on being the person who, yes, I was creative and I could do art, but I'd be the person who was the business person who would deal with the artist. So it was a much more, it seemed to me appropriate for somebody, I don't know, I guess I tied a lot into intellect and thing where unfortunately, and this gets back to stereotypes, right? That unfortunately, uh, I guess in my heart of hearts, I had a perception of being an artist that was also maybe not maybe a little too flighty or light or you know, or or not the the strongest student. So I had I I was not comfy with that label where being a straight A student or scholarship, that was like I'm all in, you know. And so I that has been probably a source of struggle for me for 30 years because like the label one wears and realizing that and and I've done a lot of introspection about this. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

And we've had a lot of conversations about but that's but not here. So yeah, but you you I'm sorry, so you can't.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Yeah, but but yeah, so that was kind of the origin story of both pieces, but they've been hard to wear, it's been hard to wear both labels at once, or I perceive one, you know, I had a silly idea that you had to wear one. And then I always was a little resentful on that.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Yeah. So you is it fair to say that 30 years ago, if you could have forecasted sitting down at this podcast, your interview would have been about radical business success, not about radical art success.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Totally. Yeah. I I would have thought I'd be working in advertising. I would have been, I would have assumed uh in account management or you know, right as I left that field, they were starting to do um, oh gosh, that's terrible, I can't even think of the name of it. Um, where basically you are that intermediary between um the business people and the creatives and um you're almost there transplanting. There's a different name for it that I'm totally blank on now. But um that was where I thought my success would be, and um but definitely was the business-y thing. But it's funny now that I look back at it, I had no vision for what that was. I didn't have a vision for this either. But I didn't have like beyond getting in and working at the Martin Agency, which was a goal, you know, and I got that. And I had I got to work on new business, which was so exciting, and I was like watching trends, and it was and I always loved that stuff. But it was beyond that, I hadn't really a vision, but I was of assumed back then it would have been that would be would be what we would be talking about. But here we are, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

Here we are. And that um I think so. One of the biggest like like the catalyst probably behind the creation of the podcast is I think it's multifaceted, but for me, in order I'll try and put it in a put it in a bow. I think we're living in a world of unfortunate. I'm on this side or that side. Yes. We're a world of div of divide. We've we've survived COVID where um we have proven that isolation is really bad and connect and connection is critical. And we're moving, we're moving beyond that. Um and I think we're not taking enough time, at least for my lens, when I take the time to get to know somebody, we may have different views on lots of different things, but we are human and we're always evolving, and people's stories are fascinating. And I think we have more in common than knowledge.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Most definitely, most definitely.

Division, Connection, And Real-Life Stories

SPEAKER_00 15:19

And now when you mix all of this with social media, which has an amazing a great it's a great tool. It is, but it is just the highlight reel. And it is so easy to judge ourselves and compare. Yeah. And oh, this is better than that, and that person's life looks perfect. And the hilarious truth is jokes on the person that thinks that because it's not the way it looks. Oh god, no, you know, your daughters, who I'm sure they could sit in this room and talk to us about things that they feel they're misjudged for.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Because I think we're all judged, and it's a survival instinct, it's it's something that we've got to um learn to deal with. But the podcast is about you know, us sitting down and learning from each other's journeys. Yes. And you have such a journey, and it has led to an unexpected journey, yeah. Yeah, and it's and you I I would think that um, and it's funny because you and I have shared a lot of conversations about growing into who we are. Um and it's always changing, and we've bat and we're balanced motherhood with all of it.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Which is not insignificant, like that's huge. It's huge to have to do that. I think, and and that's where once in a while when I would go to that place that so many women do, where I'd look at the stuff I hadn't achieved or the things I thought I'd achieved, I would have achieved, or I could have achieved, but I didn't. And honestly, as I've gotten older, the one thing I keep tempering back is, hey, I'm still learning, I'm still learning. Trying to be gentle with myself. But usually part of that equation to get me back on center is to say, Oh, but during this journey and those things that balls dropped and you didn't get to achieve or finish that task. I raised these two human beings. I helped raise my husband, very important in the picture. But I helped raise these two human beings in in today's world. And and they are knock on wood, you know, successful, grown up, flown the nest. Like that's huge. It is and I have to remember, and that grounds me to be a little more understanding that you you can't do it all, and even when we've been told we can do it all, which we know now is ridiculous. Uh we I did a lot in that, you know, I'm still married after 30 years, I have two kids that are grown. Um, I've had a career that I'm I'm proud of, and no, did it include everything I thought it would be? No. And there's things I still kick myself about. But at the same time, you know, that's pretty damn good. It is pretty damn good. Yeah.

Motherhood, Metrics, And Meaning

SPEAKER_00 18:17

Thank you for saying that. Um it's gonna lead us right into your TED talk. Okay. So I re-listened to your uh TED Talk about permissions. So when when you first mentioned this to me, of course, I ran home and and listened to it, and um, and I have a permission slip printed out that I did. Yay! Uh talk talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Gosh, that was a key period in my life. I think it was I think I checked, it was 2013 I gave the talk at the women's conference here in Richmond. And um I'll tell you honestly, I so I was going through what I call not a midlife crisis, but my midlife reevaluation. I think it's a better framing of it. And I'd been being a professional artist at that point, I don't know, whatever, 20 some years. I um I, you know, my girls were 13 and 10. All right. Um I was kind of I started to write, which I hadn't done before. And it was coming, I'll admit, a little bit from a pissed-off place. Because that's where sometimes you gotta get where it's like I was aware that I was not taking my own self into account. I was kind of uh looking around and going, you know, what is this all about? What am I doing? Why am I doing it? Um and I was just doing a whole kind of just reset in my thinking or exploration of, you know, is this what I want to be doing? And all that. So I was doing a lot of introspection. At the same time, I was also very getting very interested in um women's issues and the fact that so many women in my position and my age group, I was 40 something at the time, you know, were struggling because we had put ourselves last in so many ways, because we as women always are focused on pleasing other people. We've been socialized to be that our roles are caretaking and caregiving, and it's not about what you want, it's about what can you do a service? Well, that's all fine and good. I lived that life and I still struggle with it, I'll be honest. But I was kind of like finally like, well, wait a minute, you know, a little bit, what about what about me, you know? And I didn't and and what's also sparked some of my annoyance was my husband saying to me, like, well, what do you want to do for fun? Or or well, what do you want to do? You know, and I'm like, it hadn't even entered my brain. The the what is what's in it for you, what do you want? Those are really hard questions for women. What are you doing for yourself? Because immediately we go to like, A, there's usually not a quick or easy answer because we haven't thought about it. And and then it also makes you feel guilty that you don't have anything to answer with, and then you're like, well, what's wrong with me? You know, that I don't have anything.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

So swallowed up by motherfuckers.

The Permission Slip: Midlife Reframe

SPEAKER_01 21:36

I think it's it it's totally as I call it, it's the juggling act, the treadmill of life, you know, we just everything falls by the wayside, most importantly, of that equation is our individual selves. I think many people look at themselves in that age range and and don't recognize who they are. And I I would admit that was kind of my situation too. You just get used to just getting through the day. Doing the list, you know, taking care of what needs to be taken care of. So I started to write, I started to run because I needed a metaphorical mountain to climb. Okay? And I am afraid of heights. So I was like, yeah, I don't really want to climb a mountain, but I like the idea of like setting a goal for myself. And thankfully, in Richmond, Virginia, we have a wonderful group called Sports Backers, and they offered things for myself. Like I hadn't run. I I did some high school sports, but I was never an athlete. And I um I saw they had a 10K training team, which was like kind of the couch to 10K kind of program where I would get you off the couch. And I went to the first um session and literally they had us like run, jog a mile, and I wasn't sure I could do it. And you know, I did, but but that was transformative because it also provides something else I'd been lacking. So being a practical person, when we had our first child, we had had I had had a studio downtown, but when we were expecting Mae, we added a studio onto our house in Bonair. And that was great for convenience, great for being a young mom. I was incredibly isolated. And that unfortunately has been a piece that's the downside of my 30-year journey as a self-employed artist was also it was very, very isolating. And I, as you can tell, I'm an extrovert, I'm a people person, but I have lived my life as an introvert, as a self-employed artist, except when I had wonderful clients like yourself and I could get out and be on jobs, and that brought me to life. But I didn't even know that at that time that that was a problem. And it's still something I haven't fully fixed, by the way, but I'm working on it. Um, but uh let's see, where were we? So, yeah, so that so the permission slip came from that. I started writing, I got kind of interested in finally reading, and this is kind of funny, but um, I had never read any feminist literature of the time, you know, like you hear about Betty Ferdinand so forth. Well, I finally like got the audiobook of the feminine mystique, and I listened to it. I was like, and I thought I was gonna go, okay, this is all so old, you know, so outdated. And there were bits and pieces she was talking about. I was like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, that totally I get that, you know. So it got me a little bit kind of, it got me a little pissed off, and and so I made me want to, I don't know, write about it, speak about it, and then I they had an open mic night. I still can't believe I did this.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

I would love with the fact you did this.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

Yeah, I never very proud, again, going back to wearing my academic proud hat, I was salutatory in my high school class. That was the last speech I had given in front of a big audience. Shocker. But that was it. Like I had not had any um desire to speak or write, and then it kind of just came, you know. And so I went to the open mic night, my husband went with me, and of course, everyone there was like 20-something, and then here's me. So I get up and I gave the talk, and while I didn't win, there was one of the people who was there who said they're gonna do a TEDx women's conference, and would I be interested in speaking about it, you know, did the permission slip talk. And I was thrilled to pieces because all of a sudden I I wanted to share these thoughts because I knew part of it was, and this is where I think coming from a family of educators and I married a teacher, I think I have a frustrated teacher inside of me that likes to share. And so I'm geeky, I like to learn things often. My family has to hear me share about them. Well, this in this case, I wanted, I felt like I knew I wasn't alone, and that's a big thing for me. Like I like to find ways to connect to people where they don't know they know they're not alone either. And I knew there were a lot of women who would appreciate and and and enjoy this message, also coming not from a place of, well, listen, ladies, I've got this figured out, here's what you need to do. Not at all. It was from a vulnerable place of I am still struggling with this issue, but here's what I have learned, and here's what I'm doing. If you have the same, go see what you can do for yourself. And and that was kind of the idea was to to put ourselves back on the list to prioritize our desire to learn and be present and and be relevant and to do things for ourselves. And so that's where that came from. And you know, and I still but I still struggle with it still.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

You still struggle with giving yourself. Oh my god, yes.

Isolation, Running, And Finding Community

SPEAKER_01 26:30

Because I um, if I may, my my imagery and um I don't have to forewarn well just say it. My my mother, my mother-in-law, my sister would be what I would call the my imaginary jurors in the jury box, okay? We all have people have and you know we all have a jury. And and unfortunately, what do they all have in common? They're women, so sometimes I find we as women are the worst on other women in our judgment, and we know that to be true in what we receive, right? Now, a lot of that was probably projection. I can look at that now and recognize that. Uh but a little of it probably was fairly valid. So I was concerned what people thought. I was concerned about what what would my mother or my sister think if I went, and aside from doing the taking time to go run, like that was I did that without too much problem. But the next big thing I gave myself permission to do was go to this artist and writer retreat in this little tiny town in southwestern France called La Meuse. And that this is a big part of this because it was literally I was going to have to say it out loud. Now, my husband was supportive, my girls were supportive. That was all that really mattered. However, what I was most concerned about was what would the jurors in my jury box think, and um because I would have to take uh three weeks, leave my motherhood role, and and go to France. Like, talk about the the big evil word that comes to mind when we talk about taking care of ourselves, selfishness. And as most women, like to me, that's like a four-letter word, but you know, like you're not allowed to do that. Like, and so it that did take a lot of hurdles, and you know, I've always been passionate about travel. This was travel of a very different kind, um, but it was transformative, but it took a lot for me to do it, and even there I still, you know, yeah, it's still an issue.

SPEAKER_00 28:28

So, Colleen, you were really looking for someone to sign your permission slip to go to this three-week transformative trip. It's so I think that resonates with so many people, not just women, but certainly women. Yes. Um that you know, for me, like doing a podcast, for me doing anything, I think about well, what will people think? And the the sad truth of that is is that sometimes they don't even know or care. Yes, and so we live in this mental prison that is not real. It's not, and or even if it is real, so what? Right, right, right, and we just keep moving, and I think so. I think a real big cord that you and I have that ties us together is that we want to be awfully careful that we're not preachy and teachy. Yes. So we feel like we have to go through the pain, we almost have to torture ourselves to show others that it can be done. Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

And so it's does that resonate with I think it does, and I think it comes from a place of not wanting your you hit the nail on the head. I I'm very aware of not wanting to come across as preachy, which would imply I figured it out because I haven't. I'm still in the midst of figuring out. So it's that not wanting to seem like you're being pedantic when you're still struggling with the same issues. You maybe have, you know, like I always say, it's a few steps forward, a few steps back, and it's it's sometimes like that. And you sometimes learn these great lessons, and then like a year or two later, like, gotta go through that lesson again, you know. And so I am very aware that it it seems hard. Yeah, yeah, you don't want to come across as as a know it all when when I know how internally I know how still struggling and of a mess I am inside that you don't want to come across as having you know totally figured it out. So I guess and that's I don't know why that is. I guess it's just again, probably because I still worry about what people think and judgment, and so I'm still stuck in the same me. Yeah, yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

It cracks me up knowing and seeing what you have created. So I'm sure people are gonna want to hear. So obviously, paintings and murals in very famous people's homes and spaces. How did that come about?

Feminist Reads And A TEDx Door Opens

SPEAKER_01 31:09

Well, a lot of it had to do with um taking, which in retrospect I had to do a little analysis. I I always thought I was very fear-averse. I have, I still struggle with fear of trying new things. But a lot of it when I look back and reframe and honest with myself, I took a lot of leaps of faith that I see you as ferociously. Oh, well, that's so I inside I'm a little coward, you know. Oh no, but that's not how I see you. No, that's yeah. Well, I think in in there's always somewhere in the middle, right? And I think uh a lot of that came through partnerships with in fact um a well a lot of the celebrity stuff came about often because of my association and connection with Pashtats, which is a very a women-run business back in the early 2000s, very, very successful, and they survived the dot-com boom when everyone else perished, and they flourished for quite a long time. But I I had connected with one of the owners, uh, well, two of the owners um got to know about me, or I've got my work in front of them, and that led to all these really interesting opportunities because they were kind of the zeitgeist of the children's decor at the time. So they were able to put my work in front of you know celebrities, and so a lot of it came through those connections. Um, and uh in fact, we went up and did uh oh, so funny the painting in um Teresa Gioducci's house during in the real housewives.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

That's another one left out.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

Probably in 2011.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

So you were in her home?

SPEAKER_01 32:53

Yes, and that was quite an experience.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Yes. Tell us about that. Well, tell us what you're comfortable telling. Oh, yeah. Well, the f the one I will, and I've shared this story before, but it was like I am clearly not a put-together like manicured makeup type of person, and I'm sort of low on the We might have both asked each other if we had on lip gloss or lipstick performance and because it's not a normal thing.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

No. Um and I was gonna be going to paint anyway, so also impractical. I was gonna wear like my best, you know, whatever, I'm gonna wear a dress or something. But when we walked in, and the two women from Pashtats who were wonderful, um they they were much more fashionable and they were dressed up a bit more because they weren't heavy.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

They're the PR.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Yeah, and they were kind of the PR business-y people. And but when we walked in, I'll never forget Teresa Teresa greeted us, and she literally did one of these. Up and down, up and down, and I was like so mortified because I'm well so mortified a little bit like I'm from New York. I was like kind of like, what's up, lady? You know, like who do you think you are? Because she's got the makeup caked on.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

She's got a lot.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

Yes. And so anyway, but I thought it was just me. And then we get back to the kids, the daughter's room where we were gonna do the painting, and um we get in there, and once everybody's loud, you know, they're like, Did she just look you up and down? I was like, oh, thank God it wasn't just me. Because I'm like, if she's doing that to you guys, like you guys have the more, you know, persona and make of it. Anyway, so that was an interesting, so we got off on a little bit of, I would say, a not great footing. Um, and then I think over the few days we were there, though, she really respected us and saw what we did, and and that by the end, you know, uh it was it was a much more collegial and friendly and positive experience. Because once we I think probably if I'm honest, the fact we were coming from Richmond, Virginia sounded like coming from, you know, the South. It's not like coming from New York or LA, and I think there might have been some judgments in that, but even though the company was known.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Um so funny how it goes back to what we were talking about. Yeah, we're all guilty of it.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

We're all guilty of making judgments and conceived notions. Yeah, and then you know, so so it worked out. But yeah, so we had some crazy things. And then the craziest part though was the call. I've told you the story of, you know, I'm getting my kids ready for school one morning or preschool for one and school for the other. And uh I get this call, and um the woman says she's a designer and she works for princess, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I said, uh what? Uh I said, I'm sorry, who are you who are you working for? And she says, Princess, and I won't say the name, but and she said, Well, she's uh a princess in the Saudi royal family, and um, you know, she's interested, she's seen your work, and uh would like you to come up and take a look. Uh she's got this new house they're building, and she's got three, I think it's uh two children's bedrooms, adjoining bathrooms, and then a playroom with an adjoining bathroom. We'd like you to come up and take a look and give you know estimates. So I was like, uh, okay. And so I got off the phone and called my mom right away, and I'm like, hey mom and dad, can you watch the girls tomorrow? Because I think it was a school day and I just knew I, you know, wasn't going to turn down the opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

Once in a lifetime calls that we get.

France Retreat And The Jury Box

SPEAKER_01 36:17

Yeah, so anyway, and that meeting um went on to be the start of seven years or more of working for members of the royal family. Uh it was quite a journey, and again, many stories there. Um, but it was incredible. In that I think it was 2008, and we didn't know that the housing crisis or economic crisis was round the bend. And honest to God, you know, even though I have issues with certain governments and countries and ways of treating women and so forth, um I the I was very fortunate to have that that the designer as a client who then brought me these clients who kept me the bulk of my business for almost six, seven years. And uh and got, I mean, I could do the most creative things and obviously at budgets that were not my typical homeowner or even a commercial space that I would work in. So it was like creativity unleashed, and I had a really great partnership with that designer, and we we worked great together for a number of years. Um, and so it was it was eye-opening, and just I mean, I painted things for the uh the king's grandson, the crown king's grandchildren, all these different people. Things got sent to Saudi Arabia um to hang in the villa and Jeddah and all these crazy things. But you know, it was some of the best creative work I got to do uh because of the the uniqueness of it.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

Um did they give you freedom, complete freedom?

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Oh well that's funny. Um well um yes and no. Um so um the funniest part is this that I showed up and and Dahlia, who is the designer who I I love, and um she I remember showing up the first day and she's like so just so you know, these people they like the best of the best, they expect the perfection they want, the top of the top, you know, so you know, like we gotta give them the best you got. And I'm like, well, nothing like a little pep talk of intimidation. But then the second piece was so I was already like, oh, okay, you know, which I was I'm always a perfectionist, so I'm gonna give it my best anyway. So that wasn't really a problem. She proceeded to sit down behind me, and I realized she was gonna stay there the whole time while I painted on every project, almost every day, almost the whole time.

SPEAKER_00 38:59

She never left you.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

No, and it wasn't because she didn't trust me or whatever, she she and we became great friends through this process. But in the beginning, I was like, Oh, you know, I wasn't used to having anyone looking over my shoulder.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

Yes.

Leaps Of Faith And Celebrity Work

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Because I was a very motivated, you know, put my music on, do my thing. But the fact that she but it was she was a bit of a control freak, and and she, you know, at different times would have her opinion, and usually she'd let me, you know, go in terms of anything artistic, she would defer. But uh but on the perfectionist issue, like I do remember there was one project where I was making these little fairies that were had the head as big as my thumb, that's it, you know. And I had done a pretty, you know, I not like I do that a lot, right? And so I had done it to a fairly detailed degree, I thought. Um need to make it a little more detailed. I was like, oh, okay. So, you know, but that was like one of the few times she ever kind of like, yeah, let's go further. Um, but we often did these techniques which were pretty cool, where and this is dye, I give her credit for thinking of this because I would normally just use my paint, right? Um, but she was very into 3D stuff. So often we'd be adding real Sororski crystals onto the wings of the fairies, or uh the mermaid's tale in this underwater thing was um, I use this special fabric and sequins. I mean, so I got pretty good with a glue gun. There were moments where I'm like, that that contrast I have with my hat on my head, if it's the array of the artists or the business person hat, where I was sitting there nearly burning my fingers, gluing. I won't use expletives because I'll try to be certain sequins. And I'm like, what the hell am I doing? You know, like what what is even though it was a great job, I was earning really, you know, very good money as an artist to do this kind of thing. I was still there was moments where I was like, okay, what am I doing? Um, but but they were in the in the retrospect, you know, it was incredibly interesting creative work. There were moments though where you're like, you know, it's a job. And that's what people don't realize, even when you're doing something like that. There are those things where you're like, all right, here goes the glue gun. And you know, but um, but anyway, it was incredibly creative work. Um, we did this underwater playroom that was over the top with uh uh a TV that came up out of a treasure chest, and this had this guy from Florida create these uh who worked for Disney create these 3D like coral reefs, and and um I was painting dolphins.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

It was just a playground.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

It was crazy, and this crazy part is I don't know that the family ever lived there. It was all for a three-year-old little girl who I don't know ever got to live in that house because I think they might have moved back. But anyway, it was great while it lasted, and um interesting experiences, you know.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

And a treasure chapter.

SPEAKER_01 41:57

It was it and and the coolest at one point my daughters came up to visit, so they got to go. So the princess I was working for actually had was living in the Tyson's Corner, um, Ritz-Carlton. So I was put up there when I was working, which was certainly not my normal growing up going to the holiday end, you know, that was more of our norm. So this was not my normal kind of uh hotel experience. Well, anyway, I would slink in after working and having you know my painting clothes on and going into this place, and I remember kind of slinking in through the elevator, but before I'd go up to my room, they always had these lovely like brownies and blondies near the front door, and it's like I gotta go like I look like I didn't belong at all. Uh and of course I felt like I didn't belong, but I would make sure I got my little blondie or brownie before going up. Um, but uh but the girls in Jeff got to come visit and stay up there uh once or twice, which was fun, and they got to go to events where like when we went to one of the princesses' houses, and they were, you know, I think the nanny offered them cake, and uh, and they were like, Mom, why don't we have anybody in our house offering us cake? And I'm like, Well, you're not a princess.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

It's the question I asked myself.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

But anyway, it's a funny experience that I remember they were playing in a playroom with the one of the little prin the granddaughter, I think this is granddaughter of the king, and and they were telling me later, like, oh yeah, we were carrying around princess I won't use names in this little thing, and I'm like, oh my god, girls, you know, please do not like you could have dropped the princess, like you know. So it was crazy. It I there's a lot of funny stories, but it was a unique experience. I'm really grateful to have had it uh just yeah, really unique.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

You have it's the stories that you and I shared over so many lunches have been incredible. And I'll have to we'll have to bring you back to do another one, I'm sure, so we can sit down and think through uh all the things that you've learned. You've got um so to so to kind of weave into it, you know. Want to immediately say you should write a book. And I know you are. I I will.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

No, I say I've said it out loud.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

You have to. Um, and we've also talked about I know that you have led um kind of creative expeditions um with students, and I still firmly believe you need to with adults, and uh that's just my opinion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've had many discussions about that. I agree. So I know that um there's there's writing, you have a big passion in pets.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

Um you did a whole pet series.

SPEAKER_01 44:35

Yes, yes. The pet story project, which again, you know, when you have a passion project, it's hard to make it work when you have to make a living. That's what I'm opening. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

Can we have a t-shirt written?

SPEAKER_01 44:50

Yeah, yeah. You know, paying the bills, you know, guides one's choices when it's in a professional sense, and and and and I'm really grateful I've I have done as much with it as I have. It would be great to return back to it at some point and make that into a proper book. Um, I've got a website with it, but you know, so many things we have to go in different directions. But yeah, no, I um I think the travel piece is what's really speaking to me now. And uh I recently had shoulder surgery, so I have been put on a forced um mini sabbatical, or what I'll call it, a little uh pause in my painting career, which has been very hard. I have a lot of scarcity issues, especially as it comes to money. Anyone who knows me knows this. Um that paired with it's part of your identity now that I've finally come to accept wearing the artist label, even though uncomfortable at times.

SPEAKER_00 45:46

Now someone's taken away. Now it's taken away.

Royal Commissions And Creative Freedom

SPEAKER_01 45:48

I was like, oh come on now, really? Okay. I just got comfortable with it. I just was getting comfy. Uh and so what has that has kind of forced me to do, and but I was also it's funny, the first visit I had to LaMieuse to re as I'll say, I was needed to reinvigorate my creative juices, and that led to, and that was a great way to do that. That was 2014, was my first time at LaMuse. So the writing came, the talk came, then I went, the running was happening, and then I went to LaMuse. Um well, you know, as things go, like as I say, one of the frustrations in life is we learn lessons, and then we find ourselves a few years later going, oh, I've got to learn that lesson again. Well, I felt at a similar point this summer, ironically, before I injured my shoulder again, I was kind of feeling like restless or not satisfied, not feeling very excited about my work, my painting.

SPEAKER_02 46:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:47

And I think it was just, you know, you get you need something new. And so that was hitting, and then I got a little too into my digging in my garden on top of 30 years of big brush strokes of my right arm and tore a tendon and and had some other issues and also frozen shoulders. So I ended up having to go in and have surgery in November. But what was good is knowing that was coming, I actually signed back up for writing class. I had taken writing classes again years ago. Signed back up, met this incredible group of people that reinvigorated that enjoyment. So I found new ways to use my creativity and express myself. And I loved, loved, loved hearing the other people in the classes work too, because their work was inspiring. And again, like you said, I've always my dad was a big person who never met a stranger. I love hearing people's stories. I think everybody's worthy of a book or a movie. Like I think everyone's fascinating in their own way if you get that out of them. And I love that, you know. And so that was kind of the writing class was like bonus, it was therapy, it was um hearing other people's stories, it was giving me a chance to digest a lot of what I've just talked about with the injury and how he's gonna have to pivot yet again. And as a self-employed artist and somebody who's been doing this crazy walk, cobbling together a career for 30 years, you're constantly having to pivot. And you mentioned COVID earlier. That was when I couldn't go out and do murals, I couldn't do public projects, private projects, hospitals, people's homes. Okay, so what do I do now? I had to pivot back to doing, okay, what can I do in my studio at home? And that's when the pet thing really took place. And I was like, Well, I know I'm crazy about my dog, and I know everyone else is also crazy about their dog. So that's kind of like just out of necessity, you know, go went back to that. Well, anyway, so then the other thing that along that line was doing artwork about uh painted memories was this other idea I had about getting back to kind of what could I do on canvas that was something commissionable that people didn't really think of, and that was like people's favorite trips, or like painting the painting of Florence from your honeymoon, and you know, like kind of pitching that. But uh, but anyway, can then I guess fast forwarding to you know my new passion or how I can take the creativity forward is getting back to travel because they're all kind of linked, you know.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Oh, they all are.

3D Details, Perfectionism, And Playrooms

SPEAKER_01 49:12

And and and that having led these student and parent groups, I I realized there was a part of that that allowed me to do that frustrated teacher bit. And I really like to share things, and I'm passionate and have made um I've made more trips to Europe than I care to say because it'll sound obnoxious, but but I've done it like ten of them probably were on credit card miles and you know, uh by being really so very resourceful, always on a budget, creative travel. But I have seen and documented uh drink things in through my camera and always have hoped to make paintings of them again. Maybe in the new chapter I get to do that. But it was always something I wanted to go and have that view. And I'd have to figure out a creative way to have that view on the budget I had, and so I got really good at that. Um and then I would take these student trips and and see the joy of both the students and their parents who joined us in opening up their minds and their eyes to the world and wherever we were, and Paris and London, and we did Greece and Italy and one other trip, and um and last spring we took a group to just Paris for a week and and it was great. And and so then I was like, I really kind of want to figure out how to do that, but again, ideally no disrespect to the students, but like when they're all grown-ups, you don't have to say, okay, you know, tuck in is at 10 p.m. It's a whole nother thing. Like we never trip on the spring break trip, we were a block or two from this famous jazz club. Needless to say, we'd been going, going, going. By the time, you know, 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock, we were conked out. We weren't going to the jazz club, plus it was, you know, the younger student. It wasn't we weren't gonna do that, but like it was grown-ups, we'd been game, you know. And um, so my new concept is to think about I'm I'm actively doing research right now on how to make this work and maybe test out a few um venues and and itineraries that will work. And my my new version of it is I love going to the cities and because people want to see the famous sites, right? But then I like the idea of ending these as like mini, they're like educational travel art tours, but then they end with a little self-reflection and introspection and art, creative writing, or making some artwork. So, like for example, if I did a trip that was three nights Venice, three nights Florence, we'd finish with three nights in a Tuscan villa that I can find, and there's so many that you can do it affordably. You just have to get there. And I'm fine figuring that out. But then bring the group there to finish it out and have great meals and give people time. If they just want to sit by the pool and drink wine, fine. But if there's people who want to talk about let's do some writing prompts or let's, you know, what if what more do you want? You know, kind of again, what makes me passionate is especially again encouraging other women to engage with these ideas of the permission slip and trying to what what more would excite you in your life? You know, how how do you want to um uh what other places you want to go or and then and then the key piece, having had those experiences, is what I've tried to do in my own life is bring some of that home, right? So like remembering to sit on my own deck and look out at my yes, it's not you know the Riviera, but it is a lovely place and there's beautiful sunsets, and you know, have a cup of coffee out there, just taking a moment to enjoy your own life as it is. But giving people that little getaway, that little breakout of your world, be inspired by things, food, art, culture, views, beauty, gardens, you know, bring it home and then oh, you know, I want to patch, try to, I'm still trying to grow a little patch of lavender, you know, just to remind me of uh Provence or whatever, or you know, I when the girls were little um I built a slate patio that was kind of my ode to having lived overseas and and how many people had outdoor eating and dining spaces, and I wanted that, and and hanging my lights. And so you know, it's like finding ways to share that beauty, that part of the journey with others in the hopes that they then take it and run with it in whatever way it might be for them.

SPEAKER_00 53:42

I think that's beautiful. Travel for me, it just gives you a different perspective, it gives you a different way to think about things if you're if you're careful about it, if you're intentional about it, and you're you're right, because it's easy to go to Europe and rush, rush, rush, and you'll love it. You'll have an amazing time if you do it on a rush. Right. But if you don't stop and process, that's the key. And then what can you take home with you and adapt into your daily routines? Right. I have this um uh cup and saucer I bought um at uh where did I buy it? I just bought it and they're gonna get all over me. It's in Carrie Town. And um it is uh crme de la crème, and it is a uh European China set. And when I sit down to have coffee or tea in it, it's just it gives me pause. Yeah. And it was money I usually wouldn't have spent on something like that, but for me, it's just a tie back to my time in Italy. Yeah, because the Europeans have done something so right, right, in my opinion, and that is they stop and smell the roses.

SPEAKER_01 54:56

They do, and that's that's a key phrase I have always people always tease me, my family teased me that I literally would do that, and I do, and I believe strongly in it. Yes, but yeah, and they also know that they they work to live. Live to work. We do the reverse, and and and I saw that living my year in England really taught me that. Um my aunt and uncle were living there at the time, they were a big influence on me, and they had adapted to that, and I saw it in the culture, and then I spent a summer in France, and you just saw people enjoying their life and taking Sunday to go to the park and not, you know, the rat race that we are all sort of addicted or almost just used to. We don't question it.

SPEAKER_00 55:41

Yeah, that's a big thing.

Travel As Teacher And Family Moments

SPEAKER_01 55:43

And so one of my new things is a uh some I I came up with where it's really hit me, it's like, you know, in our culture, it is a rebellious act to enjoy your life. And I kind of that make that kind of sings to me because I've always I've not been a terribly rebellious person, but in that way I want to be rebellious. Like I want to learn how to just be able to enjoy my life. And like I said, notice I say learn how to because I'm still working on it. Um, but yes, but I think those little things we bring in, like just stopping, having the cup of coffee, having a cup of tea that reminds you of a time in England or Scotland or whatever, you know, like just the littlest things, and they are meaningful. So the and and who needs more, you know, it's not about the stuff. Like that's why we we we drive old cars. I'm in the first house I ever bought. You know, we're very practical, thrifty people, but we've traveled more than anybody has any right to on the budget we're in. But I've done it because the memories, that is the good stuff. That's what I will take as comfort on my deathbed is to know, and hopefully living a good life, is that I also went and saw and took things in. I learned about places, I met people. And travel, of course, the other big thing is the incredible experiences you have meeting people, just random little, you know, talk, and and you never know what difference that makes in in anybody's life. But yeah, no, I'm so passionate about it, and that's where I think it's like to me, it's like, okay, this brings in my love of what I I I love like travel planning, I could lose myself. Like when I've been doing my research, like Jeff's like, okay, you know, do I need to come pull you out of the rabbit hole because I'm like checking out every possible place we could stay in Provence or whatever. That's what I do. I call it the Santorini complex because literally when I planned our trip to Santorini, I think I must have checked out probably almost every possible place you could rent or stay on the whole island. Um, so I went a little crazy. But but in that, what I'm always again looking at is like, okay, well, how do I get to have that experience again on my budget? And like, for example, Santorini, we had one night in the place with the infinity pool looking over the lagoon thing that that was just crazy and was a splurge for us. But we did one night there. The other three nights at this gorgeous place that was as wonderful, it just didn't have a pool, but it was flowers everywhere and all ticks, all my other boxes, you know. And uh so it's stuff like that. But yeah, but I do I probably spend I lose time when I'm looking at those things. But that means I'm enjoying myself. It's the flow, right? That's it.

SPEAKER_00 58:16

And so I'm thinking if I could archive this, then I have go-to places for certain itineraries, and that makes me happy because then I could go share them with other people and you know you need to like uh maybe build this into your your AI as you're going through this because you can tell it to remember. Yes, and then it will pull things back up. But that's that's yeah, that's for a different I know.

SPEAKER_01 58:37

I still haven't totally gone down that path, but I but I'm eager to do so because you've shown me it can do some really great things.

SPEAKER_00 58:43

Well it is, it is it can be a great tool. It certainly um doesn't replace our brains at this moment, but it's a it's a good tool. So your your girls. Um lots, I think that something that you know I'm sure you're careful to not take credit for because they are their own adults who have they're very, very bright, but for the parents who who may be listening to this, I'm sure that you recognized um early on uh that you had some gifted kids in your house. Yeah. And that in itself is a I'm sure it's not always a it's a great thing, yeah, but it comes with its own sets of responsibilities. And I firmly believe you could have another business teaching teaching parents um the it is a business to get into the school.

SPEAKER_01 59:39

It is.

SPEAKER_00 59:39

And I it's a it's a big business. Yeah, it is. So a lot of what the a lot of the theme of what we're talking about, whether or not I don't know if you can see it is you live in with intention.

SPEAKER_01 59:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:53

And careful planning.

SPEAKER_01 59:56

It's funny because I don't ever think, yeah, get a think of ourselves. But I love that. That that makes me feel good because to me it's always like, well, you're so ADHD and you're all over the place. But but I did that that's good. I like having a thread. It is.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:09

There's a thread. I can see it. Yeah. And I don't think I'm trying to stretch here. It's it's just there. It's there. Yeah. Um, also with trips, like you're not, you don't, you're not someone who strikes me as this is the this is the problem, I can't solve it. You figure out how to do it, whether or not it's travel on a budget, yeah, it's how to have a career, how to be a mom. And yes, it's hard to have it all. I I it's not we're always weighing, yes, uh, and our focus goes and our success goes with where our focus is. But along that same thread, with having such amazing children and their fun and their academic um accomplishments, walk people through, you know, I know I've asked you. Yeah, yeah. Oh sure, of course. Yeah. You know, not that I think Anders is is is as gifted, but right I don't want to categorize my child in any way, but we're in a world where we want to give our kids everything.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:09

100%, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:11

Um, but it seems to be a very carefully curated list of of checklists of what you need to do to at least give your kid, your child a fighting chance at getting into school these days. So can you walk us through your journey of co-education?

Writing, Injury, And Creative Pivots

SPEAKER_01 1:01:29

I will say the the key thing was, you know, each kid is different, right? And so even with my two girls, uh, they were had both very high achieving. Uh I'll I'll divert for a second and bring me back because the brain goes. That's okay. Keep going. Bring me back to the later, like preparing for college stuff in a second, but just the early piece, because I don't know if I I've told you much about this, because this would appeal to both parents who are not having a straightforward, like, oh my kid's gifted, we're on the track towards, you know, wherever. Um, so Helen was a you know, both were early achieving, right? Yes, Helen Maeve was reciting the Grinch at three from memory. I remember being like, that's not too typical, is it? I don't know. But uh, and then with Helen, you had asked about some of the things like showed their giftedness. She was opening like child safety things when she was like one or two. It was scary because I'm like, oh, take the, you know, like not like I was leaving the tilem all around, but you know what I'm saying? Like she was just clever.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:31

So for those and for parents in doubt, there's you you won't be in doubt if you've got yeah, there's a very different line between a very gifted kid and a smart child.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:44

Yes, and and I I do believe all children are capable, and a lot of times it is what you do with that. And my and so just giving ahead, like we followed their interests. We did have testing done on Helen. I've told you this before at one of the private schools, because um, I admit a little bit naughty, I paid for the application because I like I couldn't afford the testing on my own. Um, but that included the testing.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:08

So you won the whipsy testing.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:09

Yes. Yes, and that was for Helen was like the lady's like, yeah, so she did the best we've ever seen on, you know, it was like all these things that I'm like, it was a little humbling. Now, had they come back with you know, you're free to it, yeah, they didn't, but um, had they, I might have given that some thought. But uh, but anyway, it was armed, we were armed then with information we didn't have, and I I didn't have that on MAVE. Um, MAVE was always uh Helen was always a better test taker on those things. Um but uh so we knew we were dealing with some uh a pretty high level of curiosity and ability and wanted to feed that. So we always tried to follow the interests, so that was being a key thing. Find out what your kids are interested in, foster that interest. Uh, even if it's not what you want them to be interested in, because they're really going to guide you as to what they're interested in. Now that said, um, you know, neither one of my girls really like was like, you know, gymnastics is the key on the physical front or sports front, or you know, uh Helen did do piano and she was very into it, but she she she had and then she was interested in art. So there was a lot. There was a lot. So we tried to feed it, but there wasn't like one avenue. So that's also you can also feed a lot of avenues and they'll shake out, you know, and then you'll figure out, okay, well, that doesn't really seem to interest her anymore. Um and um one little diversion more on on MAVE, because I hadn't, I don't think talked to as much other. So while both were really high achieving, MAVE we saw a struggle, and it used to frustrate Jeff and I to no end with math. Like she was so bright, and then it was like basic like things, and she was like, it didn't compute. And I'm like, what's going on here? You know, like this doesn't add up, and she's high achieving, and and and she kind of faked it, or she worked hard and faked it through elementary. We ended up she was this is another little tip, advocate for your child. So May Helen uh she uh qualified for center-based gifted for elementary school. Maebe did not, but uh but it meant leaving your friends, taking a 40-minute drive, um, going to a whole other school, and um, you know, a lot of parents weren't keen on that idea. We went to the open house, and Helen heard about the field trip, and she's like, I want to go. And she didn't care that she was leaving her friends behind. So she wanted to follow the line of the most challenging creative path in our curious path. So we said yes. Um, other people might not have made that decision because it was putting your kid on a bus for 40 minutes and it was a totally different school from the homeschool and all that stuff. So she ended up at Henning, loved it, was great for her, made lifelong friends there.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:52

You know, my my niece chose not to. Okay, so Casey's little girl chose not to.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:56

And see, and it can go either way.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:59

And and so So it was good for Helen. Maeve again didn't test it and didn't have as an option. So come forward to middle school. Uh Helen got into the center beach gifted, no problem. Maeve was right at that cusp. I made the point as a parent. I just knew. I knew that that was the place she would like rising tide lifts all boats. I really believe that. I just knew that in that environment they were curious learners, eager students. That's where I knew she would perform the best and it would help her. And so I had to ask for a I don't know, pro uh what they call it. Like a temporary status, like a you had to, she had to an exception. Exception. Like they they they said yes with this understanding they could evaluate if she could cut the mustard, you know, once she was there. And thankfully, she got in and just th thrived. Except that's when the math and the foreign language stuff caught up. Now it wasn't like she was failing out or anything, but she was struggling. And we again did not know what was the deal because it didn't, she was so bright on so many things, she never could spell well.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:11

But we're not good at everything.

Adult Learning, Pets, And Painted Memories

Designing Creative Travel With Reflection

SPEAKER_01 1:07:13

No, no, and so guess what? By seventh grade, we're like, yeah, okay. Because she did so well in school, the school wouldn't do the testing. Because we said, I think she's got some kind of learning disability when it comes to math. So we went and paid the money for the testing, best decision, best money ever spent. Found out she had some form of dyslexia that was regarding math and foreign language specifically. I didn't even know there was a thing. And so it finally made sense. She also got diagnosed with ADHD, and when it came to processing things, her brain just worked in a different way and worked a little bit slower in putting it together. She'd get to the right answer, but it would take a different like processing speed where that was a strength for Helen, that was not for May. And enough that that testing allowed her to get certain accommodations that were key to her success. That if I had not so had I not put her in the place that pushed her, had I not then noticed there was a struggle and then paid for the testing, it would have changed the trajectory of her success. Because once we had that, we were armed with the information. And I will say Chesterfield Public Schools were excellent in taking what we had and making accommodations that allowed her a little more time. She could get notes from the teacher if she needed like reinforcement, especially when it came to math and the foreign language, those were her two real struggle areas. The other stuff she was doing, great, you know. Um but when then fast forward to high school and she when you're getting ready for the horrible and dreaded SATs, ACT, she was again not my best test taker. Helen almost got the perfect score, you know, on both. Maybe it was more of a struggle. She never did as well in SAT as she did the ACT, so I give that tip to parents. Try both because it appeals to different kinds of learners. I think some people do better on one versus the other. Um, but the because she had that extra time for the sp to accommodate for the math and stuff, um she did very well. I I can't remember now what she got. But she did really well to the point where she was almost at the cusp for scholarship stuff at U of R and stuff like for the merit scholarships. She might have needed one more point, but like that would not have happened without the time and a half or whatever it was. Now, people could say, oh well, that's you know seems an unfair advantage where well I totally wasn't doing it to be trying to cheat for her. But but because she had these issues, that quite frankly, had I not done the testing, had we not paid for the testing, we wouldn't know. And she wouldn't have done as well, and she wouldn't, you know, it snowballs, right? She would have because it through elementary school she could keep up and do well enough to mask those um disabilities, if you will, academic learning issues. But when it hit the middle school and things started to ramp up, that's when things started to fall apart. So, you know, noticing where the kids have issues, getting them help, getting, you know, and then we did some tutoring and we, you know, but but those accommodations that made a huge difference for her. And she'd be the first, you know, and that really, you know, made made a huge difference. Uh but um back to so you know, your kids are in middle school looking ahead to high school. One of the things, again, looking at their interests, trying to not be mercenary about it, but keeping track of like, well, you know, did they seem like they're a well-rounded student? Are they um, you know, if they're a sporty kid, great, encourage them to find a sport. Um, if not, don't push something they're not interested in just to say like you can check the box on the sports category. Because a lot of schools really do like to also see like one trajectory of passion that stays throughout. And so whether it's art or music or or it is sports or it's civic service, uh, one of the things Maeve had that really helped her was a passion for helping others in the environment that she fostered in elementary school. I mean, she was really quite amazing, and that carried on through middle school into high school, and honestly, I think it made her stand out that there was this continued interest in helping people and raising awareness about the environment. Um, she did this whole big walk for water back in like fifth grade, you know. So she, you know, finding if your kid has a passion for something and and helping them to uh make that into part of their story. Because in the end, what you're doing is you're telling the story. You are selling the school on this person as what makes them unique. And it's not trying to be braggy and you have to get over all that. That you this is the time, this is the time where don't hide your light under a bushel basket, as my mother would say. You have to put it out there. Um, so uh let's see, what I'm getting back to again, the what to be armed with. Um, so I always had my kids made, um we called it the brag sheet. Okay, that was actually I take again this is from my sister. Um thank you, Eileen. My my sister had done this when we were going through, because I again learned from my sister how you applied for both academic scholarships and uh financial aid and how you stood apart. Now, back then was child's play compared to now, but we did have a brag sheet, so you wrote down and keep a little running list, all the things the kids do. You can go back to middle school, you can because then you start writing a trajectory, and even in some of her college essays, as I said, Maeve's arc was so far ago and showed a compassion early in life that I think she did even mention that walk for water back in fifth grade. So you never know what it's gonna be, but try to see where there's an arc of a story there. What it what turns that kid on, what makes them excited. Um and then uh what else? Um yes, the brag sheet. Obviously, testing does matter. It matters a little less now than it used to. It still matters. Um so I'm a big believer, again, a la my sister Eileen, you know, to start studying early for those tests. So I think by tenth grade, my sister probably started in ninth grade. 10th or 11th grade, I was doing some practice tests. Back then we only had like an old occasional workbook, you know. But but doing test, doing that, and you know, if they need to uh take an old class, a lot of the school systems offer a class. There's obviously private tutors as well. Uh both my girls did um do a lot of did some practice tests, and I I will say there was a tutor for especially for me with the math stuff, because I was like, it was so many years for me, I was like, uh pass that baton. Um but again, and I'll be on as a thrifty person and you know, public school teacher, artist budget, a lot of these things aren't expensive. Oh, yeah. Um and so we had like for each kid, I'm like, okay, you can go to X number of sessions. Now that may be less limited for people with more, you know, resources and people can choose if that's what they want to spend it on. But for us, it we did get a little help. Uh and and honestly, it did help. Oh, yeah. Um, but the self, you know, just doing even the free stuff, there's a lot of tools that are free. And and uh what's that one? Khan Academy also has great stuff on all this that's free. Um, so you know, oh, and I will say, circling back to the beginning, in my family and for my girls, they'll tease, they'll make it sound like we said they couldn't go to college unless they got a scholarship. But that was not what I said. They had the same prompt that my parents gave us there was no college fund.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:09

Because early on in our parenthood days, I had to have a discussion with Jeff who was very much like, we need to be putting in 529. We knew I said, look, I know how this system works, and I don't mean to be mercenary again about it, but like we will probably possibly qualify for financial aid, depends on where we are. So just have to understand, we right, we were always behind the eight ball on retirement because Jeff had no match and he's a school teacher. We didn't put in, I didn't put in for years I had nothing left over. So I was like, well, gosh, there's no scholarship or financial aid for retirement. So we're gonna focus on that. And you know, if we have leftovers and we're gonna put in 529, fine. But that's our priority. And um, he was really nervous that I was gonna be wrong.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:57

Yeah, but the financial gurus would have totally agreed with you on that.

Bringing Europe Home: Everyday Beauty

SPEAKER_01 1:16:01

Because people understand that it depends. Uh obviously, if you're you could you gotta look at what the qualification numbers are, if you think you would qualify for aid, having the 529 has come right off the top. Right. And so I'm again not to sound like but that's learning the system, right? So people who know what tax benefits they can get in tax cut, like it's knowing what fits for your situation and knowing where your family would fit in if it comes to financial aid. So you know whether you're playing the financial aid game of qualifying, or are you playing, you know, and for so many people who make more money than they will qualify, then they're in the merit scholarship hunt. And they're two totally different things, and people like us were trying to address both. Because uh, and and I know people who um yeah, most people who have a lot of resources will get the financial aid qualification, have to chase the merit. And that's the other piece. There are 40 schools. I want to go ahead and share the big news. There's only 40 schools, may have increased by a few here or there, that will assure full financial aid need met. Okay, so if you if the families qualify think they'll qualify, um, you want your kid ideally applying to some of those schools because if they get in, they will get their full financial need met. Whereas if they apply to a great school like Virginia Tech and other ones in the state of Virginia, um uh Virginia Tech, um uh JMU, they are not 100% financial aid need met. So, now of course that pairs with UVA and William Mary do. Those are much harder to get into. There's a reason. Sure. See how that pairs off, right? So, but if if you if your kid can get into one of those and you have that financial need, it's going to be met 100%. That to me makes very clear where you would, if you could, if the kid can get in, that's the place to go, right? Whereas, and then with the merit, I think it's similar. I think it's about 40 schools that have uh scholarships that are full uh merit scholarships or partial merit scholarships, and you have to know where those are so the kids that are higher achievers but mom and dad earn more money than financial aid allows for, those are the schools those kids want to look at.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:18

See, this is why you need to be teaching a class and having this. Not that I'm not trying to create your life. No, no, no, I'm passionate.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:27

Well, you can see and I'm passionate about it also in that sharing the information, right? So the teacher part comes out. And I'm and and I'm passionate about it because it helped my family. Again, kudos to my sister for uh opening the door, but like it helped my family when I was a kid, it helped my family now as a mom. I like the idea that it would help other families to navigate this very confusing system uh and also um encourage especially uh for those people who who didn't have uh you know somebody like my sister in their life to open the door for them because they're not there's it's knowledge, and I like to share that um because there's so many people who could otherwise be um uh eligible for some of these things and they don't even know about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:13

That's and that's the shame. You know, when I think about like bringing it all like full center full circle, bringing it back, um you know, all of that intelligence and and straight A's and full rides and graduating top of your class has served you in so many different ways, and it certainly served you in the way you raised your daughters and going on to higher education. It wasn't lost, it wasn't for nothing. I hope you know that. That's true, that's true.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:45

No, no, that's that's very true.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:47

Yeah, you know, I think um, interestingly enough, um, and we'll have to sit down and talk again because we just just literally just just scratch the surface here. But you know, you and I are working, if maybe I'll say it like this to end. I feel like you and I are working on some very similar things in our lives, we're in totally different chapters, but we're both working on building a table big enough and inviting people to join us at the table through a service, through we will show you how it's done. Yeah, and we're we're very interested in giving and giving back, and it's a really cool place to sit. And sometimes I feel like I'm still an observer. You probably are more sitting at the table than I am. I'm still earning it.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:38

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I I think you I think we're all at yeah, I don't know. I I feel like I'm I'm hopefully getting to the point of trying to move beyond the fear of wherever it is that I am, you know, and just doing it. That's that's the part that I'm just you've kept in motion.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:00

I have, I have you've kept in motion, and I've talked about this on other podcasts that when the anxiety hits me and when the doubt hits me, my secret weapon is to move. Yeah, to do something right to to move the piece along the puzzle of life, yeah, and to not sit and stagnate. No. And your proof. I mean, you're I can't wait to see what else you continue to build as you navigate through this next chapter in your life.

Intentionality, Resourcefulness, And Planning

SPEAKER_01 1:21:29

It's exciting. I I am feeling excited. I was, you know, I in my fall writing class, I was did this one little essay where I was I got to kind of vent and stew about things and loss that I've experienced. You know, 90-year-old mothers gone through memory loss, I've lost my dad, I've lost my dog, and my girls are flown the nest, you know. And and I was processing, writing to me is like a part therapy and processing, but it was also kind of getting to the place of like, okay, all right, I I'm I'm I'm sitting with the discomfort of this phase of life where there's a lot of loss, and and uh it allowed me to then kind of get back to like okay, and this being out of commission again, like forced to sit still. It's hard, but it's making me excited with the next thing, and I just want to make sure I say out loud that that I don't put um my own obstacles in my own way, because that's always been the thing. Like, I think I've been both afraid of success. I feared success and failure. Yeah, but I I think sometimes I feared success more. I think I've gotten in my own way many times. Uh so I don't want to do that. Because also the other thing, and thanks to you, I started listening to the Mel Robbins podcast. Oh god. Oh my god. And I got to let them book for Christmas. Yes, and uh good, good, good. It's so good, but like just the idea of trying to um yeah, move beyond the fear, just make the plan, do it, don't overthink it. Um that's and that's where I'm trying to and then uh just remembering though the stop to smell the roses, be present in the moment, enjoy the little things. Like that's that's a key to uh where I am right now when I'm feeling like there's a lot of things I can't do yet. But there's a lot of things I can do, and so I'm trying really hard to force myself to put like dates on the calendar, and like this was a great motivator to have this this meeting, and and I'm gonna bug you to have another meeting so I can talk about my other plans. But but um, but again, you know, key to the journey though has been like I put you as one of my catalyst people to when I'm feeling low or we, you know, too much time on one's own in one's head, ruminating, it's really important to have cheerleaders in your life. And you are one of mine, and I so appreciate it, and you always make me feel good when I'm feeling like ah, you didn't do this, and and and I hope I do the same for you. And and that's but you know, as we get older, we need to find those people. And um, like in my writing class, I found a few people there I think might add to that mix. I I gotta instead of the judges and jury, the jury in the jury box, I need my cheerleading section, and that's what I need to build.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:30

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:31

And uh I think that's uh that's something I'm gonna work on. So, but you're already in there. I just gotta find you company. Jeff's always been a cheerleader. I've got you know a lot of cheerleaders, but you know, there's different phases of life are challenging. I will say this middle-aged piece with elder care and kids flowing the this is a little oof, it's a gut check. Like, what is what are you here for? What's your purpose? And I I it's uh it's good to have to sit with that. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:00

Even if the movement is in our heads. It doesn't have to be physical moment. Right. You can sit and still move.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:07

Yes, it's mentally moving forward to the what ifs, where's the path? Looking at that. That's where I am. I'm in an exploring phase right now where I'm I'm looking at options, but definitely the travel piece is really calling me heavily right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:19

I can't wait to see what you do in 2026.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:21

I'm so excited. Thank you. And you too, and I'm so excited to be here and talk about this. And oh, it's exciting.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:28

I can't wait to share what you do next. Because I know it'll be inspiring. I hope so.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:33

Thank you as always.