Justice James Sullivan Talks His Time on the Bench and Path to Office - Episode 35

Texas Supreme Court Justice James "Sully" Sullivan joins the program to discuss his path to the bench, the campaign to retain his seat, and his judicial philosophy.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:10

Welcome everybody to another episode of the Texas Bullpen Podcast. Uh you you'll notice Brad Johnson is not here with us because we have somebody uh much stronger, much bigger, much more fun to be around. Joining us today is Supreme Court Justice uh James Sullivan. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me here. Longtime listener, first time uh sitting in the chair. Well, we're very happy to have you join us today. Um we're just kind of gonna go through your background in life and uh introduce you to all of our listeners. I'm sure many people are familiar with your work, but maybe have not had the pleasure that we've had of getting to know each other a little bit more um outside of the courtroom, thankfully. Thankfully, I've never had to go before the court for anything. Lord willing that holds. But you never know sometimes, you never know. Um but yeah, why don't you start from the very beginning? You know, you're uh from the Houston area, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:05

So yep, I was born in Houston, but uh we moved here to Austin before I started kindergarten. So I'm not quite a native Austinite, but uh about as about as close as you can get. Uh so did all my my schooling here in Austin uh growing up. Um my two Austin claims to fame. Uh I was an extra in the movie, dazed and confused. Are you serious? Yeah, because uh my dad and I built the Orbit Orange 1970 Pontiac GTO Judge that was the hero car in that movie. No way. So the summer before sixth grade, uh I got to be an extra in that movie. Um What scene are you in? Uh right after the baseball game, uh, when the old guy says, like, is this arm gonna throw for two thousand yards? I go walking by in the background with bell bottom overalls and a big mushroom head of hair. And uh, you know, McConaughey's show of his career did a little better than mine, but that's okay. It's just politics. Hey, that's happens sometimes. Um and then the other Austin claim to fame, uh, I played football uh at Westlake High School and uh as a scout team or hit Drew Brees in practice once. Uh which was not a good idea. Um and uh so yeah, grew up here in Austin uh and then uh went to went to Rice University in Houston and I was a highly unrecruited walk-on football player there uh and started out as a physics major and uh got hurt after a year of being a tackling dummy and uh and realized I was not gonna go pro in football or in physics. And so uh started doing debate and switched over to economics and political science. Uh and then from there uh went to law school, uh went to Harvard where I met my wife on the law review and uh and then uh clerked for a judge in D.C., Judge Thomas B. Griffith on the D.C. circuit uh and worked at a firm there for a couple of years. But uh in 2009, uh when Governor Abbott was Attorney General Abbott, uh went and became one of his appellate nerds in the office of the Solicitor General, and uh so did that for a little under five years, uh went to a firm after our son was born, uh pay off the second mortgage, that sort of thing. Uh, but then uh in 2018 uh uh joined uh the office of the governor as Governor Abbott's uh lawyer.

SPEAKER_02 3:07

Well before you go into that, let's go back. So you said you started as physics major at Rice and then got into debate and stuff like that. What like why did why did what led to that change? Obviously, you said you were her uh playing football. Uh I never played football, so I'm you know physically pristine, but you know, no pain loss. No pain, no pain, you know. That's what I've always said. Um so like uh yeah, what what led you to go into law? What made you interested in that? Did you have any people in your family that that was their background or not a lot of lawyers in the family, a lot of engineers uh in my family.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Uh a lot of a lot of them went to rice. And so, you know, when I when I blew out my back lifting weights with the football team, uh I was kind of looking around for something else competitive to do. And uh and so debate uh was you know another, you know, another way that that you know could try to win. Uh, but uh, you know, instead of you know lifting a bunch of big weight and breaking bones and everything, uh it was you know, try to make the best argument, uh, try to beat the try to beat the other guy. And so doing parliamentary debate uh for for Rice's debate team uh was a was a pretty natural you know feater then uh into going to law school. And uh you know, for competitive argumentative uh type person that I am, uh it was a pretty good fit.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Now, do you have any siblings? Is that s is the argumentative nature something that was big in the family? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Yeah, I've got I've got uh two uh two brothers who are four years, nine days younger than me, the twins. Okay. Uh and uh So as the oldest. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And and you know, going from being an only child to one of three, uh, you know, you gotta fight for a little bit of attention and everything else. Um and uh yeah, my my brothers are awesome and uh uh and so uh not not lawyers. Um and uh yeah, just not a lot of lawyering really in the family.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

But uh but the debate was kind of your gateway drug into that.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Yeah, I mean my my late mother, you know, said that she knew from when I was a little kid that I would be a lawyer because I liked arguing with her. Um and so but you know, what whatever it was, uh you know, I I took to it and uh have have enjoyed the career in the law.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

My uh my mom would say something similar. Uh she also said because I just liked the talk. So she's like, you're either gonna be a lawyer or a pastor. So I chose the worst parts of both professions and became a journalist. Yeah. There you go. But um all right, so then you get to to Harvard, which is like, you know, obviously Rice people say is a Harvard of Houston or whatnot. Harvard Harvard Harvard of the whatever geographical classification you want to uh pigeonhole it into. So you go to Harvard and you get on the law review and you meet your your wife then at that point. Um what uh what was that like going from debate like straight into Harvard law?

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Well, uh it was it was interesting. You know, I'd I'd never lived anywhere cold like that. And uh I was uh you know, I probably came across as you know a bit of a hick. Um the the summer between college and law school, you know, I lived in the mountains and I bought all my cold weather clothing at uh Banana Bay, the old military surplus store here in Austin. So when you know when I got to Cambridge Mass and had a bunch of uh you know old surplus military gear, you know, people thought like, you know, who is who is this uh this cedar chop and hick? Um but uh you know I I went there with the same competitive uh you know attitude uh and it all worked out and was worth you know the student loans uh because that's where I met Alethea, my wife, who's a much better lawyer than me.

SPEAKER_02 6:37

And uh so were y'all in the same class or she was a year behind me. Okay. Um and uh we So y'all didn't have any like head-to-head competition per se. No, I've did you finish higher in your class than she did hers?

SPEAKER_00 6:50

Um I I don't know. You don't have to answer that the personal safety issue. Yeah, right. Uh yeah, but uh she was a boxer at Harvard College, so uh yeah, you don't wanna you don't want to get on the wrong side of her. Uh because we weren't in the class, I'm not uh you know, I'm not a hundred percent sure. Yeah, yeah. Uh but uh you know it was um I don't think that I've ever won an argument with her, and so I I don't have any reason to think about it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

So uh what was that like then being a clerk on the DC Circuit Court? I mean that's seems like I'm not a lawyer, but that going into the D.C. Circuit Court being clerk right out of law school, that seems like a pretty like jumping straight into the fire situation.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Yeah, you know, the D.C. Circuit is sometimes called you know the second highest court in the land. Uh a lot of judges who had been on the DC Circuit are now justices on the U.S. Supreme Court. Um, and you know, they're docket, they they hear a lot of you know really, really consequential administrative law cases that have nationwide impact. And so, yeah, being a you know 25, 26-year-old, whatever it is, um, and and trying to help the judge you know rule on some of these consequential issues was definitely eye-opening. Uh, but Judge Griffith, the judge I clerked for, uh, he was the one that really inspired me to want to try to be a judge someday. Um, you know, the the way that he uh revered the Constitution, cared about the rule of law, and and tried to write, you know, uh good, clear opinions uh that explained the court's reasoning. Uh I thought, you know, I'd maybe someday I'd like to do that. But you know, that that's a hard thing to to plan for. Um and uh but uh you know Judge Griffith was uh essential to helping me you know get connected with Attorney General Abbott uh in the Solicitor General's office there, and he's been he's been a huge backer of mine uh ever since. So I I was really blessed to get to have him as a mentor.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

That's awesome. What are what do you think are some of the biggest qualities that are important for a judge to have?

SPEAKER_00 8:45

I think the first one that I would list is courage. Um it is important uh if you care about the rule of law, it's important to have courage to say things that, you know, hey, if this is what I think that the law demands, even if I hate it as a policy matter, and even if I think people are not going to like the result, uh, you know, we're there and the oath that we take uh is to you know defend the rule of law, not to say the result that we would like the best. And that takes courage to do, um, to you know, to say, hey, I I I hate the result as a policy matter too, but this is what the text demands. Um I think that you have to be ready to work hard. Uh, you know, on the Texas Supreme Court, you know, we get over a thousand uh new cases, you know, petitions that are filed every year, and you've got to be ready to give every one of them your level best and uh and think hard uh about which cases to take, uh, and then you know which way you think the the law you know demands that you go there. And then you know it it rewards good judgment. Um, you know, that's the the the power ultimately that we have is to you know peaceably resolve disputes uh you know in accordance with the law and it and it takes good judgment to you know to get the get the opinions done in a way that you know that'll be clear, that'll give guidance to folks, uh, and that'll allow you know Texans to decide how they're gonna be governed instead of being you know ruled by you know monarchs in robes or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

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SPEAKER_02 10:38

Now, your your opinions, you've been on the court for how long now? A year and a half, two years?

SPEAKER_00 10:43

About a year and a half uh since January 7 of 2024.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

Um and your opinions while on the court have already garnered some attention. I was doing some very intensive background research on a little known site called Wikipedia. And you know, Wikipedia not very well known for like uh one uh you know, well, it's not known for just like kind of saying things out there, but it had a line that jumped out to me and it said, quote, his, talking about yours, writing style is known for abrasive wit and exhaustive footnotes. Is that something that you picked up from uh Judge Griffith, or is that just uh a a solely original? Because I mean you've I've read a number of your opinions uh and you like quoting, I think uh there was one recently you quoted the big Lebowski. Um I mean they're fun and but they also like for a lay person are digestible and and largely understandable. So like how does that look like for you when you're sitting down? It's like, okay, let's let's crank one of these suffers out.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

The Judge Sully opinion is is definitely a little bit different than a Judge Griffith uh opinion. Um but I you know I always prized his commitment to clarity. Uh his his kind of rule for us was that the the opinion, uh if a well-educated high school senior sat down to read it, they should be able to understand what the case is about. Um and so I I I work hard for that that clarity as well. Uh, but uh, you know, I try to write it the way that I think it. Uh so I don't go out of my way to put in a pop culture reference or or a piece of abrasive wit. Um but you know, I I there's there there's not any rule against making our opinions readable and enjoyable and hopefully memorable. And so if the if a Simpsons quote is the way that I'm thinking about it anyway, uh, you know, I've probably written in the margin of one of the briefs, you know, the card says moops or something like that. Um, then you know, I'll I'll throw that into the opinion too. Um, you know, we we shouldn't just be writing for a really, really small audience of you know people who speak Latin and that sort of thing. Um, you know, the the opinions you know that explain to the people of Texas what we do, hopefully uh they'll be able to read them and understand what's going on and and maybe keep reading.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Now, did you write that uh sentence in that Wikipedia about yourself? No.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Uh I I'm I'm no bleeding edge technologist, and I I wouldn't know how to do a Wikipedia uh even if I wanted to. Uh but that would be kind of sad for me to be sitting you know in the basement or something typing about myself.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

Some people are out there who are like that. Me, one of them. Um I have a brilliant, wonderful Wikipedia page. But uh I'm just kidding. Um so that other s side, the exhaustive footnotes, uh recently the Supreme Court uh disposed of the Quo Aronto uh cases about the um corn break that happened during uh uh I think last summer it was. Um and you wrote a concurring opinion that was basically like a history lesson. I think it started up, I think the first year cited was like 1170 or something like that. Uh and certainly a lot of uh footnotes on that one. How do you I was speaking with uh Chief Justice Jimmy Blacklock Black back at a convention and he talked a lot about how you know history goes into these legal decisions that y'all are making. Uh and he was very much stressing kind of the originalist uh idea, which um is that kind of where you fall on it as well? Originalism and absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Yeah, I mean we we write these things down for a reason. The text of the Constitution or the text of a statute, and uh, you know, originalism, we're just trying to figure out what was the original public meaning of this text that got ratified by the people of Texas, of this bill that got enacted into law by the legislature and and signed by the governor. And it's written down for a reason. You know, we we believe in rule of law, not rule of men, and so we should strive to understand what did this text in context mean at the time that it acquired the force of law. Uh and then once we know what that is, that doesn't change over time. That doesn't change with trends or fads or with the policy preferences of a judge. And so it's a way of uh you know making sure that that we're not you know just giving ourselves license to just do whatever we want. Uh and so yeah, uh I'm I'm with Chief Justice Blacklock on that with originalism. And in the in the opinion that you mentioned, um, you know, it was important to to go back and and look at what was what was meant by when you know when the people of Texas amended our constitution to give the Texas Supreme Court the power to issue writs of Quo Oronto, uh and then a statute was enacted to that effect shortly thereafter, what was the thing that that they were actually empowering the court to do, and how did that map onto the to the dispute uh that had reached our court? And as I as I said in that opinion, uh I thought that it was, you know, uh I think that the the the quorum break ended after something like 14 days. So our court, you know, that wasn't really enough time for us to to sit uh and and do the fact-finding work there. But um, you know, the work that that we had done, you know, we were in the in the Texas State Library and Archives Commission looking up old records and uh really trying to do a lot of research to understand what is this power, where did it come from, and how would it work in something like this, so that if it ever does happen again, uh you know, we we don't lose the you know the the work that that we had already done to to understand what that that uh quote ronto power is.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

Yeah. Now, uh right now, you're because you were appointed to the court by Greg Abbott after serving as his general counsel, but obviously Texas Supreme Court elected position, you've got a campaign, you're currently in the midst of your first like political campaign. What what has that been like?

SPEAKER_00 16:43

That's been the biggest learning curve for this because you know I've done appellate nerd stuff.

SPEAKER_02 16:48

They didn't teach you that at Harvard?

SPEAKER_00 16:49

No. Um, you know, I I've I've argued cases in courts and written briefs and you know, consumed a lot of judicial opinions, done oral arguments and everything. The running for office part of it is new, and so picked a very modest district of all 254 counties in Texas. Uh, and so you know, trying to go and get people, you know, uh excited about the work of our court, uh, tell them a little bit about myself, get them to go to judgesully.com and all of that. Um, and that's been the that you know, that's been the biggest learning curve because I was kind of a you know behind the scenes toe cutter type. Uh and now, you know, people want to get their picture made and and all this sort of stuff. Um and so uh it it's different. Um, but you know, learning by doing is good. And I've enjoyed the opportunity. Uh it's a good civic education opportunity to talk to people about you know what our court does, what our judicial branch does, hear from them, what do they like that we're doing, what could we do better, and that sort of thing. Um and so uh, you know, hopefully, uh hopefully the people of Texas won't uh return me to private practice.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

And I mean, so you raised a good point, you know, telling people, educating on the campaign show about like what does the Texas Supreme Court do? Because it is different from our US Supreme Court. Um and in fact, you know, the Texas Constitution, we have two um I don't know if I would say like equal highest um, you know, courts, because you have the criminal court of appeals and you have the Texas Supreme Court, which has primary kind of control over civil matters. Walk walk us through that.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Yeah. Like so that was uh I'm trying to remember uh exactly when the Court of Criminal Appeals came into being. It its name has changed some over time. Um and I think Oklahoma is the only other state out of the 50 that has that kind of bifurcated system with with a with a court that is devoted to hearing appeals in criminal cases. Um and uh you know, given given how large you know Texas is and how many criminal cases uh you know our courts here, uh, you know, we're we're grateful for the the hard work that the CCA judges uh do over there. But it is it is unusual uh at times uh that's like the the US Supreme Court, there's not any bifurcation there.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

That's right. They hear both civil and criminal matters. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 19:09

That's right. And so uh you know, occasionally issues could come up that uh you know we may have said one thing about a constitutional provision, uh and uh, you know, I I think that the Supreme and Supreme Court, you know, means means something. Um but uh you know the the you know our our docket would be you know even that much bigger uh if if we also heard all of the criminal cases. So uh we're we're grateful for the the hard work that the CCA judges do.

SPEAKER_02 19:35

Now um if you could take off your campaign hat and put on your judicial hat, how do you think it is being because you know obviously the US Supreme Court is purely appointed, there's no elections. Um other other uh states, you know, don't necessarily do like a popular election for judges and things like that. I think the Virginia Supreme Court, it's the legislature that votes and decides judges. What type of impact do you think partisan judicial elections have on a court composition? And you know, is that something that uh having gone up through you know the legal system and and looked at it and been at the DC circuit court and stuff? What what are you making of that now that you're on the trail yourself?

SPEAKER_00 20:27

Yeah, so I think that it that it certainly does uh change the composition somewhat. Uh I'm sure that there are uh you know talented Texas lawyers that would be interested in judicial service, but are not interested in uh you know going and you know giving speeches, uh, you know, fundraising and all of the things that come with winning, you know, a statewide partisan election. And so uh you know, I imagine that there are probably some people who would be good who are turned off by that. But every judicial selection method is going to uh have an impact on who does it, who stays, um and uh the some of the you know some of the other systems uh probably have you know their problems too. Some states do like a Missouri plan where the bar gets to pick a slate and then the governor has to pick one of those folks. Um, I I think that the mechanism that we have, we have a very talented uh Texas Supreme Court. I think we're the strongest Supreme Court in the country. Uh seven of the nine of us now uh have been appointed by Governor Abbott. Um and so I I think that we have an outstanding bench and you know the oath to uphold and defend the Texas Constitution that I took includes the judicial selection mechanism uh you know that that we have. And uh I think for us uh we we have a really, really strong court. Um you know, life tenure like the the federal courts have, um, you know, it was you know conceived initially as kind of a a a matter for preserving independence. Um I've I've been I'm very pleased uh you know to say that that for me, and I think this is true for my colleagues. the election part of it does not you know affect how we actually do the work of the judging. Yeah we you know first and foremost we have to follow our oath to you know up uphold and defend the constitution and laws of the United States and of the of the state of Texas.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

And uh and and I think everybody works hard to to make sure that that's so now there's a lot of other things kind of happening in the judicial world and r I mean really just like it's something that every industry and field is having to wrestle with but it's something that's come up a lot recently in the the legal field with artificial intelligence and things of that nature. And I had a very interesting conversation with your chief about how he's kind of wrestling and digesting this new thing. But we see it all the time now it feels like every you know week there's a new story of lawyers using AI to write a brief and it hallucinates um citations and and things of that um nature which you know obviously undermines some of the uh trust in in in that process but what has that been like for you going from a lawyer from the governor's office and now being on the high court in Texas how how do you wrestle how do you balance that? Is that something because like you've got law clerks and you've got things uh and people that are doing research for you uh what what's your approach to handling artificial intelligence?

SPEAKER_00 23:29

Yeah personally uh I I don't use uh don't use it myself you know with the my understanding is that like Microsoft Words like grammar check now uses AI and like Westlaw and that sort of thing. Yeah but in terms of like generative AI or agentic uh AI, I you know I don't use it myself um and uh and you know we don't use it in chambers. Uh I think that the the biggest uh admonition you know that that I could give to the bar if if they are using AI tools for writing things is that the robot uh does not take the same oath that you take and is not going to be the one that could be held in contempt or sanctioned or something like that. So whatever your process was for coming up with a brief uh you know you really shouldn't sign that if uh if it has a bunch of made-up quotes and made up cases and things like that. But like you said, uh you know it is something that is coming to the to the practice of law and to the profession. And I know that everybody is kind of dealing with it uh different ways. I think Chief Justice Blacklock though has it just about right. If we have a generation of lawyers that has never uh had to sit down with a blank document in front of them and figure out how to write a brief uh then the profession will have lost something. And ultimately as judges uh you know we're we're not large language learning models we're we're in the business of exercising judgment uh and that really to me is not something that that you can outsource to to a computer yeah I mean computer can't go over to the archives like you were talking about and like you know read through it and sort through stuff.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

What's been your favorite issue to deal with on the court?

SPEAKER_00 25:12

I had a a separate opinion uh in a case called Noyas uh having to do with the Second Amendment and the Texas Constitution's uh state law analog uh to the Second Amendment uh protection of the right to keep and bear arms and uh there was a case that came to the court and uh we ended up uh sending the case back to the Court of Appeals to take another look uh because of uh some of the Bruin and Rahimi, some cases that the U.S. Supreme Court decided under the Second Amendment. Uh and that was another one where we did a very deep dive uh into the kind of you know history and tradition, the original public meaning uh of the federal constitution uh and the the Second Amendment there and then the Texas Constitution's analog uh and the the issue there was uh somebody had been uh you know uh he had the the district court had found that he was you know stalking uh you know a former romantic partner uh but without making any determination uh of like particularly particularized dangerousness uh had banned the guy from owning firearms for the rest of his life with kind of no no way to to get out of that and so my separate opinion kind of ran through the history and said you know it it seems like there are there are serious you know constitutional doubts with that but uh the the court of appeals will take another look at that but I'm a a Second Amendment aficionado uh enjoy shooting and everything else and and I also revere the Constitution so that that one was that one was pretty important.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

What uh as a as you gang yeah what type of uh what stuff do you own?

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Oh boy uh uh everyday carries a Springfield Hellcat uh subcompact nine millimeter okay um but you know got some uh you know uh you know got an AR and chambers and you know some shotguns and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

In chambers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

Because you're you're the security officer that's right right I'm the court's uh security liaison as well um and uh I also have uh one of my favorites although I've loaned it to my dad because he's got a bunch of rattlesnakes uh out at his car barn uh is the Smith and Wesson governor uh so it's like a six shooter that shoots uh 45 long colt or four ten shotgun shells so he's got to load it up with four ten so that he can blow away rattlesnakes yeah and so um you know that that's not a really a concealed carry piece.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

No I would I would not think so I mean unless you have the courage but that's yeah that's tough. I mean uh do you conceal carry while you're hearing arguments?

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Yes. Awesome. Um yeah I mean you know uh it's pretty easy to conceal with yeah with a robe I was thinking you could conceal the 410 revolver underneath your traditional robes yeah you can conceal your whole AR just spin the spin the spin the the barrel yeah um favorite gun you ever shot oh boy uh probably the HK MP5 uh the the um the uh it's the nine millimeter parabellum uh shot uh shot a full auto uh one of those when I was in the Boy Scouts. In the Boy Scouts? Yeah yeah we shot a like a full auto 22 uh a 45 ACP Tommy gun uh but then the the HK was like that was you like the HK more than the Tommy? Yeah the Tommy gun was a lot of fun but the HK was uh like on another level yeah it's you know it was it was the one that was kind of on the cover cover of all the magazines when I was a kid it's the one where you have to kind of like slap the top yeah we all played Call of Duty that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 28:36

So Boy Scout were you an Eagle Scout?

SPEAKER_00 28:38

I was an Eagle Scout yeah I was once an Eagle always an Eagle I'm an Eagle Scout.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

What was your project?

SPEAKER_00 28:43

My service project was an erosion control project at uh the elementary school uh where where I went um and uh so big environmentalist well uh you know uh it was important that the kids weren't tracking mud uh onto the bus and then into the schoolhouse every day um and uh but yeah really enjoyed the time and scouts you know filmont uh you know national jamboree and all of that uh Troop 990 here in Austin at St.

SPEAKER_02 29:09

John Newman Catholic Church uh we would always win campoe and and everything else so uh but yeah Eagle Scout my dad was an Eagle uh both my brothers are Eagle Scouts uh in Troop 990 as well wow wow um well what um as you look forward to November and continuing to campaign what are some of the biggest issues that you feel like voters should be aware of well for judicial races uh and I I mentioned this before part of the reason that I that I like getting out onto the campaign trail and talking to folks about it uh is to try to let them know what what should they value uh in a judicial candidate.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Um you know you're you're not picking somebody uh you know because you think hey they're they're gonna do whatever they want and come up with the policy results that they like and I would like those results as well. I think that you know we want voters to understand that the the oath that we take and that the job that we have to do is to say what the law is and not what we would like it to be because it's better that the people of Texas, you know, that their their elected representatives and senators and the you know the governor that's involved in the you know bicameralism and presentment process that that that's who makes the laws and we're just there to interpret those things. And then to uh let people know that we have that important but limited role to do and you know the Texas Supreme Court has a big job. You know we have you know we have courts in all 254 counties we have 15 courts of appeals and so you need somebody that's going to work hard that's going to be courageous and somebody that you know that is going to you know try to take the take the time and do the work to deal with that that you know that that big docket that we have and try you know take the extra time to explain so that you know not just lawyers and lower court judges but but anybody that's interested can understand what we're doing and if we come to a result that that I might not like as a policy matter that that that everybody knows this is what the law was and you need to write your senator, write your representative if that law needs to get changed.

SPEAKER_02 31:20

Well and that's something that's I think jumped out to me quite a bit in a lot of y'all's decisions is the adherence in in very much stressing the separation of powers issue. Which you know at you know the U.S. Supreme Court that's something that has kind of waxed and waned on where exactly the court can overrule legislative deliberation and process and executive it's a big fight that's happening right now. You know where is the line on executive uh uh power um but in I've you know a lot of the decisions at least that I read um you or the other justices are very much trying to delineate clearly like this is a judicial function this is a legislative function this is an executive function how can you explain a little bit more about y'all's thought process as you're trying to be sure everything is kind of fenced in properly because it's not just a free range that's right yeah you know separation of powers is so important to the people of Texas that unlike the federal constitution we actually have an explicit separation of powers provision in Article II Section I of the Texas Constitution of 1876.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

In the federal constitution it's kind of one of those it's the notes they don't play you know article Article one of the federal constitution gives the legislative power to the Congress Article II gives the executive power to the president uh and Article III gives the judicial power to the Supreme Court and to such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain. And so uh but but we care about it so much that it's it's expressly written into our Constitution. And uh it is an important starting place for every case that we decide at least in my view um I I I'm not of the view that hey I came to work at a courthouse today and I have a robe in the closet so whatever I do uh is fine uh you know uh because I did it uh we have uh you know an important but limited role to play with the judicial power that Article 5 of our Constitution gives us and so you start with does does a court have the power to resolve this dispute is you know does the plaintiff have standing? Has the legislature uh conferred jurisdiction on you know to hear this or that sort of dispute, this or that appeal um because you uh ultimately our power is in the judgments that we issue and then we write opinions to explain what we're doing. If the executive branch has some role to play in that uh then we need to make sure that we're staying in our lane and that the executive branch is staying in theirs and that the legislative branch uh is staying in their lane. And so it you know it it doesn't you know come to the top you know of every case but a lot of the really important public law matters that that we resolve end up coming down to uh you know some of those important uh separation of powers principles that we have you know it's part of the genius of the the the federal constitution uh and and then you know reflected expressly uh in our constitution uh you know the the genius of you know dividing the dividing the you know the power up uh and and you know uh you know uh ambition checking ambition and everything like that okay rapid fire round okay um to help people get to know you a little bit better uh what what hobbies do you have outside of being hyper competitive and uh being a judge uh I I enjoy playing chess uh I enjoy lifting weights uh what's your what's your uh PR bench press uh the most that I ever did uh at Rice was 380. Um and you know I'm probably good for 300 now.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

That's still pretty good. Um I would think I don't know I've never done a bench press in time.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

We don't have to it's okay like you said no pain no pain no pain no pain um all right uh you know what watching football uh you know watching uh grew up rooting for the Longhorns uh I was a an Oilers fan growing up and then RIP yeah and then you know when love you love you blue broke our hearts uh my dad was working for UT Austin and so grew up rooting for the Longhorns um so how do you think they're gonna do this uh coming season strong to quite strong strong to quite strong yeah it's good it's a good Lord's willing you know yeah um well you you already I was gonna the next one was gonna be your your your PR show um favorite color blue blue yeah or gray interesting yeah or gray yeah like I like I like the some of the grays that that you'll see on some of the old Porsches like uh motogral like fashion gray sharp uh but yeah if it if it if it has to be something on the color well I'll go blue.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

Okay um hopefully that's not brought up in the campaign but um uh favorite number favorite number uh boy I guess I'll go uh 33 Blair bird's number okay it's good it's good cut um and then last question where is your favorite place to eat that you've been to on the campaign trail favorite place to eat on the campaign trail man and you can you can you know if you've got like a special place in Austin or whatever that you're like this is the best place in the world but as you've been traveling the state now campaigning what's a place that stood out to you boy you know a lot of the time when I'm on the campaign trail I've taken the advice of you know don't eat anything and then you won't get any of it on your tie.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

And so uh I guess uh some of the for some of the kind of strategy meetings and stuff that I've done uh there's a place uh uh called Quickie Picky uh it's kind of like a little uh bodega type place uh and they do really really good uh breakfast tacos the the juniper on flour uh get some you know grilled onions and avocado bacon egg and cheese in there it's awfully good uh I'm a I'm a big breakfast taco fan. Okay. So um but yeah uh you know when I'm out there I also uh you know I don't I don't need to be eating too much I've got a tactical reserve kind of built in here already awesome well thank you so much for joining us and uh we look forward to having you back sometime thank you very much