Chris Skinner of Owens Corning about why strengthening the material ecosystem around composite is an important step forward

Welcome to a new episode of Future in Steel, the podcast series exploring the technologies shaping the next generation of industrial structures. Today with a very special guest: Chris Skinner, Vice President of Strategic Marketing and R&D for Owens Corning’s Composites business. Where Owens Corning is the world’s leading innovator in glass fibre reinforcements and composite materials. With decades of experience in developing high-performance materials for industries ranging from construction and infrastructure to renewable energy. At the latest JEC World in Paris, Owens Corning and Tree Composites signed a Memorandum of Understanding to explore how their expertise can be combined to optimise glass solutions for large-scale composite joints. Hear from Chris and Maxim Segeren of Tree Composites what that means and why strengthening the material ecosystem around composite is an important step towards large-scale deployment of this technology.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:07

You're listening to Future in Steel, a podcast series about the Composite Revolution. Brought to you by Tree Composites, winner of the 2025 Chamber of Commerce Innovation Award. Hear how challenges, vision, and real-world innovation meet. How leaning Dutch companies, innovators, and key stakeholders share their vision on the future in industry, steel, and manufacturing. Strengthening Europe's position as a global economic power in a rapidly shifting geopolitical landscape. Glad you're listening. Welcome to a new episode of Future in Steel, the podcast series exploring the technologies shaping the next generation of industrial structures. Today with a very special guest, Chris Skinner, Vice President of Strategic Marketing and RD for Owens Corning Composite Business. Where Owens Corner is the world's leading innovator in glass fiber reinforcements and composite material. With decades of experience in developing high performance materials for industries ranging from construction and infrastructure to renewable energy. At the latest YEC World in Paris, Owens Corning and Three Composites signed a memorandum of understanding to explore how their expertise can be combined to optimize glass solutions for large-scale composite joints. Hear from Chris and Maxime Seger of Three Composites what that means and why strengthening strengthening the material ecosystem around Composite is an important step towards large-scale deployment of this technology. Chris, on behalf of Maxime, a very great welcome in Future in Steel. Great to have you.

SPEAKER_04 1:54

Thank you. It's an honor to be here in a wonderful day in the heart in the Hague.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

In The Hague, we we record this in The Hague. And indeed, the sun is shining. Yeah, uh, both on the outside and in our hearts as well, of course. Maxime.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Yes, yes. Uh Chris, thanks for uh for joining uh for joining this podcast series. Um I'm really happy uh to be here today and uh and and talk a bit about what we're going to do the next uh few years. And um yeah, well, one of the things, of course, uh which uh which I think we would start off is with uh yeah uh who who is Chris and uh how did you come to this business and what does Owen Corning uh do?

SPEAKER_04 2:34

Um my story is kind of a bit of a traditional one. I mean, I grew I I grew up in the UK, um, I went to college in the UK, I studied chemistry, um, you know, I did a PhD in chemistry, and then basically I started to kind of progress through the world of material science. I worked in catalysts, I worked in polyurethanes, I worked in polyamide, and then 16 years ago I joined Owens Corning. Um, I've done a number of jobs in Owens Corning. I've worked in the fabrics business, I've worked in the composites business, I've worked in the corporate environment. Um, you know, and now I have a role where basically my responsibility is to really think about what the future of the composites industry looks like, how do we shape our offer for the customers, and how do we actually support growth and adoption of composites? I mean, it's it's a super cool, um, it's a super cool job. I get to do all kinds of crazy things all day, like sit in a room in The Hague and talk about, you know, composite adoption. What's Owens Corning? Owens Corning was formed about 90 years ago, and it's really one of the most interesting things to actually read about. I mean, basically, um, it was it was it started with um Owens Illinois and Corning Glass, where basically some scientists had actually kind of extruded glass through a platinum bushing um and created a fiber. And you know, traditionally nowadays you would say to the scientists, stop that, go back to work and do what you should be doing. And basically what they did 90 years ago, they said, Well, that looks super cool, why don't we turn that into an industry? And essentially, then in 1936, 1937 or 1939, Owens Corning was formed from this kind of um this integration between Owens Illinois and Corning Glass. And essentially what they did is they created an industry, you know. So they invented continuous roving, they invented chop fiber, they invented SMC, they invented protrusion. So if you read through the history of this company, it's completely nuts. It's completely nuts. If you see what they did, it's completely nuts. So I mean, not wishing pioneering. Yeah, I mean, it's it's incredible. So I mean, not wishing to plug a book that we recently published, but we wrote a book recently with Inklus from Post from Lervan about the history of composites, and I got the honor of writing chapter number one on the history of glass fiber.

SPEAKER_03 4:47

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 4:48

And actually, we detailed, so we went back into the history and pulled all the stuff out and wrote the story. It's insane. You'd never get away with it these days. I mean, to read it, it's really quite interesting. So I work for Ons Corning, we're one of the world's largest glass fiber producers. Um we produce glass in or glass and product in like 17 countries. Um and it's it's it's being part of an industry that's dynamic, it's about material substitution, it's about creating growth. Um, and really that's the kind of role that we look to play in this industry, which is the the company that's kind of supporting the development of this industry. Um, you know, and I think it's it's it's it's an honor in many of these places to actually do this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:32

Wow. That's that's special. We have a special guest here today with a special company.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Yeah, I knew, but uh to to hear all of these details is uh is way more exciting. But uh indeed, you so you wrote the you wrote the first chapter and um and and then you were like okay, uh super happy about uh let's say the content. Um and you said okay, uh just now, and uh I find that very interesting. Today that would not be possible, right? Uh all of these pioneering steps.

SPEAKER_04 6:01

I mean, because you you know, I mean you live in this world, right? Which is okay, can you imagine going to someone and say, Oh, I've got an idea. What's the idea? Well, I'm gonna create an industry based on something that doesn't exist, but I've got to invent a whole bunch of process technology to make it work, but I don't know how to do it.

SPEAKER_03 6:19

Pretty wild.

SPEAKER_04 6:20

Oh, so it's like the Apollo moon thing. It's like, oh, we need to invent the transistor to make it work. So when you look at it in terms of what they did, it was it's incredible to read. And I I have to have a shout out to the to the lady that wrote the chapter with me, which is Michelle Corwin Evanson, because Ignace phoned me up and said, Oh, would you write the chapter? And I said, Yeah, that I'll do that. And then you realize what a nightmare it is. And it's like, I need someone that's gonna help me. So I I phone Michelle, he's one of the scientists that work in one my the RD group I have in in the US. And she did a tremendous job of actually going through and actually reading and pulling all the the original documents out. And we kind of put it together and wrote it. So I have to say a shout out to to Michelle on this one.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

But yeah, no, uh no, we when you say that okay. I think we we do a like a mini version of uh of what uh what they say because of course we are also trying to create a new market, but that's basically what we're doing, or new industry, right? Yeah, yeah. But but yeah, so yeah, so I feel the let's say the challenge, right? Um and yeah, and then no well, so one of the things that I I think uh would be interesting, so uh of course we're we're doing quite some innovations on uh on the structural aspect, uh mainly then on how you apply, let's say, the material. But from the material side, you also see that okay, there have been innovations over time. Where can you can you a little bit uh uh let's say explain what what you see the last let's say uh 15 years and and how does that impact, let's say, what we do right now?

SPEAKER_04 7:53

I I think it it's always it's always an interesting question about how do you think about composites, right? And I you know I joined this 16 years ago. And you have to find ways to think about the benefit of composites, right? And and I think simply for me, I I think about it in two specific areas. I talk about specific modulus per dollar and specific strength per dollar.

unknown 8:19

Right.

SPEAKER_04 8:19

And everyone goes, but why is that important? Okay, specific modulus per dollar means that you actually look at it and say, okay, for every unit of modulus, how much weight does it take to deliver it? And how much cost does it take to deliver it? And really this is the key trend you look at, and you go, look, okay, the composites industry is driven by material substitution. And to achieve material substitution, you actually have to offer a value proposition that's beneficial versus the incumbent material. So if you think about it and say, okay, if I want to drive the substitution of metal, or I want to drive the substitution of wood, or I want to drive the substitution of aluminium, essentially you get into a conversation about specific modulus or specific strength per dollar. And if you look at the the trend in the industry over many years, it's been really how do you actually move those numbers. So, I mean, uh I'm trying to think when we did it, when did I do it? I mean, we launched in China in 2010, 2011. We we launched high modulus glass for use in wind energy. Now, okay, glass in high modulus glass or high modulus glass was used in advance by one producer. Um, but actually we we launched and we started to commercialize the large-scale adoption of high modulus glass. Why do we do that? Specific modulus per dollar is better, right? What's the consequence? Basically, all wind blades in the world are made with high modulus glass now.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

So, in that um because the high modulus, what is does it actually do to a blade? It allows for a bigger deflection or what um Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:49

So, I mean, when you look at a blade, I mean basically what are you doing? You're you're building essentially a sail, right? So, I mean, essentially if you you if you look at it, I mean basically because the blade, when it spins, it's subjected to a force and it bends. If it bends too much, when it spins, it cuts the tower off. Yeah, right? So your choice to actually deal with the ability to make the blade longer is I've got to provide more stiffness. I can provide more stiffness by making the blade bigger and heavier. That's bad.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:16

Or I make the material more stiff and I get the same performance with the same weight. I can make a longer blade with the same weight. So, really, this point about specific modulus per dollar correlates to AEP.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Yeah, so it's it's stiffer. Stiffer.

SPEAKER_04 10:32

You make it longer, I R squared, the the swept area is longer. As a consequence, you get more energy per unit of glass, basically.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

But then would you agree that without this development, we would be stuck in upscaling wind turbines?

SPEAKER_04 10:47

Um I think we wouldn't be in high modulus glass, right? Yeah, I mean, I think you you look at it now. I mean, if and if you look at the systems now that are in place, I mean, basically you see the use of carbon, you see the the use of high modulus glass, why don't you build bigger, more efficient turbines? I mean, you'd probably be stuck at I mean, the the always the discussion was how long could you make a turbine, right? Um so you would be you you would actually probably limit the length that would be possible, right? I mean, there's probably loads of wind engineer, wind energy engineers disagreeing with what I'm saying now, right? But I mean, simply for me, specific modulus per donor, the better it is, the longer the blade, and the more energy you produce, the more competitive it gets.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

Yeah. No, and I I think that and that uh more or less answers why does glass fiber provide such a powerful reinforcement material, right?

SPEAKER_04 11:37

And then I think you know, if you think about your application and stuff like that, it's the same sort of thing. I mean, I think you get into this question of specific modulus or specific strength per dollar. And it really provides a view of how to make a decision. And I think historically you've always had this challenge in composites where people have really looked at, okay, oh, I'm you know, I'm gonna think about total life cycle cost of the product and I'm gonna sell it on the grounds that okay, it's gonna last for 100 years versus 20, which is which is a compelling argument. A compelling argument of specific modulus per dollar, specific strength per dollar at the point of use is much easier to sell.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Yeah, I'm just thinking on a bummed uh it's a little bit more complex. Um but um no, indeed for us, uh we use indeed uh uh your glass, uh uh super happy with it. Um really gives us uh performances that allows also the structure to indeed reduce uh in what tremendous amount of of steel. Um and at the same time we also know that okay, there's still room to improvement, and that's also I think what one of the things that I'm so excited about uh for the next coming years.

SPEAKER_03 12:51

Yeah um but but you but you but you're really making a difference in in every aspect because the things you're doing, you're developing the longer blades and stuff like that, but that technology or that way of thinking um enables you to even explore all kinds of applications in which these materials can be used, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 13:13

I mean, but it it's it's an interesting question, right? I mean, one of the one of the challenges we have as an industry is the composites industry is still relatively small, right? I mean, okay, I mean I'm not sure how many millions of tons of steel are used or produced every year, but it's quite a lot, yeah, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you think about the composites industry, I mean the amount of glass and carbon put together is probably 8 million, 8.5 million tons globally, right? So it's it's okay, it's a big industry, but it's a small industry at the same time. And I think really one of this, one of the challenges you have is that you have to think about you have to think about what's going to drive the large-scale adoption of composites. And to get large-scale adoption of composites, you have to think about applications that are that you can substitute that are going to make a difference. I mean, wind is the single largest application for composites, right? You can't build a wind blade out of anything else apart from composites.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

No, no.

SPEAKER_04 14:06

Um but I think, I mean, if you take your case, you know, it it has the potential to be a massive application for composites, but what's it take? It requires material science that's actually leading and clearly better to drive material substitution than the incumbent material. But it also requires a supply chain to deliver it. Yeah. And this is one of the challenges with composites, is you actually have to configure a supply chain that's actually scaled versus the application. And that's one of the other questions you have within the composites industry, which is why I mean we spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to support this thing, because a bunch of small-scale producers producing small things is not going to create a huge industry. Someone substituting steel in offshore wind platforms, yeah, that's going to make a big difference to the composites industry.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Yeah. No, no, I I agree. And um, we more and more I think it's also uh what I uh I fully agree on is that that was also the reason why I was so excited about because I saw okay, if well one, of course, uh when we started, we said okay, this works, uh, but we still have to bring it to the market all the uncertainties. Um but I also always said that okay, if we make it, it will be like not yeah, big is not is mildly said, right? So it would be such a major shift, um, or it would be too radical to adopt. And I'm I'm now thinking, okay, too radical adopt that that will be fine. It's just how do we innovate uh fast enough, I think, and also deployment offshore. But we also in at YAC we had really a good uh good week. Uh lots of actually other applications, and that's I think I think also the power of this uh this technology that it is not limited, although it has the highest impact on steel, let's say heavily loaded structures, it also enables full composite uh structures, right? Because we were talking to uh to uh to a party that actually, hey, I want to connect tubulars of composite, and I was really struggling because there are no structural joints, they're only joints uh for media, uh let's say when you have pressure uh pressure vessels. And um and he was like, Ah, you solved it. We should talk and uh Eureka, yeah. No, and uh and and also um so we were talking about uh let's say large scale, but also on on really small, let's say uh lattice type of structures, you can think of all kinds of applications to make things lighter, but also uh sometimes more durable. So I'm I I was really okay. Uh for me, it's like okay, it's just we have to make choices, but we have to find one way to let's say expand the the entire uh let's say applications, and we should also uh look at two let's say past and scenarios. And okay, if offshore wind takes off fast, then we indeed need to grow fast in volumes, but there's also let's say other scenarios where we uh let's say uh in other markets uh besides offshore wind um can grow. And um, and and I also see that, and that's why I'm also so happy that we can only do this in partnerships and uh and together. Yeah. Um and and I also think okay, uh of course I know you're excited, but I also uh I was still thinking about okay, when you first saw, let's say, this uh crazy ideas of uh of us. Um I'm just curious and uh on what you at that one point in time thought.

SPEAKER_04 17:31

With do you think yes, this is possible, or did you think, well, quite skeptical about it, but no, I mean I I think I mean I think if we go back, I mean I think I first saw you at the JC startup booster event two years ago. Uh maybe three years. Three three years ago.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

Time time flies when you were having fun, Chris.

SPEAKER_04 17:50

Three years ago. Yeah. No, but I I think there's always that point about when someone puts something in front of you that is clear, I mean, I I don't want to use the word simple, right? But you look at it and go, all right, what's the what's the proposition? Okay, I'm actually going to replace a welded joint with a composite joint, and I'm basically going to enable a redesign of the structure that's gonna save weight and add durability. You look at it and go, holy moly, that's amazing. Right? And I see a lot, I mean, with the with the JC startup boost, the way it works is I read it, well, we get about 130 to 150 cases to read in December. And then you rank them, and then we choose 20, and then we we have the competition, right? And I read yours, okay, one minute, easy. Put it on the acceptance part because this is too good to, you know. And then I think the way you presented it, I mean, it's like it's so compelling. And you look at it and go, well, the science is right. You know, if the science is right at the point of use, let alone the life cycle cost.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:51

So you look at it and go, it's a truly compelling, um, a truly compelling case about how to actually create a material substitution. And I think, you know, it and it's it's really interesting for me because I read a lot, I mean you read a lot of blockchain and mycelium and blah, blah, blah, blah, and lots of stuff like this. And you look at it and go, okay, it's the pure capability of a composite in substituting a material and basically enables a transformation of a market. I mean, it's it's super elegant, honestly. So congratulations. And you and you put and you pitched it so well as well, right? Okay, thanks. Thanks a lot.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

Well done. Yeah. Yeah, because it's um it's always um, I think a challenge to actually uh to meet because you can tell so much about what you're doing, and then just to select okay, what are the most relevant parts, uh, parts to pitch. And uh I I do remember that at a certain point, I think uh Jelle from uh Airbus, I think he asked me, yeah, but what is the major challenge that you have? And I was like, Yeah, it's not technology, actually, right? It's uh because we know that the technology works, and uh it was more about okay, how do we get to the scale of uh of actually when when when it picks up, then you really need to to scale fast, but also then all the let's say uh what what we see is indeed the the adoption goes hand in hand with let's say the true belief that um it is a reliable product, but also that the there's a reliable supply chain because in in offshore wind, and also I think you know with blades, um they have this really okay, it needs to be in time, so that means that you have to have a reliable uh supply chain. I I and I said okay, of course, that's why we were at YAC, right? To find the partners and um and now, well, a little bit more than uh one and a half years ago. I think um yeah, I'm I'm truly uh see the I I see that we're starting de-risking all of those uh those challenges.

SPEAKER_04 20:50

So it it's always interesting. So on the panel of of the JC startup is we have Yalaf Blumhoff from um from Airbus.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 20:59

And he's a I mean he's a wonderful guy, right? Because Airbus knows everything about composites. I mean, I'm not joking, they know everything about composites because every joining technology, forming technology, layup technology, they've done and they know.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

They've tested and they've tested and they know, right?

SPEAKER_04 21:19

So you have this wonderful experience of seeing in a room with Yeller and it's like, yeah, done that, no. Yeah, done that, no, yeah, done that, no. True composites, yeah, absolutely clear. Next, move on. So if Yellow says yes, it's it's a good one. And then you got something.

SPEAKER_03 21:36

I wondered, you know, not being a technician or technician or a scientist, it um Chris, is is the world of steel ready for this application?

SPEAKER_04 21:46

I I I think it's it's always an interesting question, right? Because we I sit in many rooms and people talk about oh, steel's gonna be threatened by this, or you know, composite rebar, steel's Going to be threatened by composite rebar. And I actually think I think the opposite is true. I think in some respects steel's enabled by these technologies. Right. Because if you look at it and go, like, there's not enough glass in the world to replace all steel rebar. Um, there are applications for steel rebar that you will make in steel rebar, right? You'll never change it to a composite. But I mean, okay, you take a seawall, right? Why would you make a seawall with a material that rusts? Right? Use a composite. It at lead, you know, it'll lead to durability. So I kind of look at it and go, I think there's almost a symbiotic relationship or something that could be symbiotic where if you've got big challenges, use the best material for the challenge. Right? You want a black steel rebar to reinforce a floor somewhere, just use black steel. Why would you use composite? It makes no sense. Right. And I think in the case of the offshore thing, I mean, I think in in some respects, anything that can make offshore wind more competitive and lower cost is good for steel and it's good for composites. So I I think I think in some respects we always sit, you know, people sit and say, oh, you know, we're we're in direct competition with steel. I don't think we are. I think we've got the opportunity to be symbiotic and actually kind of reinforce and improve the relationship between the two materials. And I think it's in it's interesting in some areas of the world, you see steel companies taking up composites and actually selling composite solutions. Yeah. Which is actually a logical thing to do if you think about it really. Yeah. You know, so I think for me, I I always encourage people when we're not, this isn't a war between composites and steel. This is about how to deliver a material solution that enables growth. Yeah. That's the key point. And that's a story that has to be told.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

No, no, but I I fully agree. And that's also um it reminds it reminds me when we first talked to Ars Lamito, and uh and well, we explain what we do, and then we say hey, we decrease the steel, and then they have to sell it to management, right? Uh and they're like, Yeah, um, we're going to use less steel, but then we're going to deploy more. So eventually it's more steel. Um, and otherwise there will be less steel because then there are troubles with the business case whatsoever. Uh, and it was like, okay, so we're gonna uh support something that will enable less steel, yeah. Okay, so you had to really uh uh explain that okay, if we do this, then it also uh accelerates the deployment uh or at least the rates of which we can make uh structures, and I think it's also something that uh that is not often told is that the first 10 uh 25 years of the century deployed, let's say 10% of our ambition of 300 gigawatts offshore, and the next 25 years we have to do the other 90, right? So um it's not always about hey, uh cost effectiveness, but also about the speed because I think now also what uh we're currently seeing is that the ability to produce your own electricity um yeah pays off, right? Um, and uh recently I saw again uh a person who looks into let's say the effects of uh um financial effects of uh rising uh gas prices, and one trillion also was was uh spent on making or keeping electricity affordable in Europe uh in 2022 because we had such a high rise, which is more or less the amount that we need to realize the uh energy uh transition. So we spend one year more or less what we want to spend in the next 25 years, and then we say yeah, offshore wind is too expensive. Well, not if you take this into account that whenever a geopolitical situation like this occurs, right, then uh then we actually are paying the bill of not actually speeding this up. And I think um I think that's the true I think challenge within Europe to get everybody on the everybody on the board as in okay, let's speed up, instead of looking only at okay, uh we cannot uh uh pay for let's say uh enabling this. So what I'm happy with the change, but I think we should repeat it more. And then another thing that you that you that uh I think is very important to realize is that what uh what we now bring to the table with our technology is that's not only let's say making new stuff, and it's uh it's also something that uh popped up recently, also more in the Netherlands in the news, is that we have a huge amount of civil structures with lots of welds which are getting to the end of life, and we have a choice to well, we don't have a choice actually. Uh we need to either repair them, which with welds, yeah, it just means more or less you have to replace the entire thing. But now with and it's not new like uh strengthening structures with composite is not new, but I think what we bring to the table that we actually can uh offer a reliability in it, we can actually predict uh what the extension of lifetime is. So uh last week there was this uh well this article about that we have 50 to 80 billion of backlog of only in the Netherlands, yeah. Um, and with uh Minister Karamans uh in front of the let's say the um what do you call it the storm uh arms and then I see huge amount of wealth there, and I think yeah, if that is running out of its uh lifetime, let's let's go and have a talk because we actually could reinforce and actually save society a huge amount of uh of investments of replacing it uh with all risk uh involved. So yeah, I'm I'm um and this is where I also get really excited because then it's just this so the technology is so versatile and it's also um and and it's even like we can so much so much do more in material selections as well. So I just see as okay, I'm I'm quite excited and and like to move forward on this.

SPEAKER_03 28:05

And and Chris, you will be talking about supply chain. If we talk about this, I mean if we talk about a European autonomy, I mean, you know, there's a lot to be done here.

SPEAKER_04 28:15

Isn't that right? There's a lot to be done, you know, and I think if you if you look at the relative rates of penetration of composite in any markets like aerospace or automotive or wind or construction infrastructure, the lowest levels of penetration are composites and uh it's construction and infrastructure. Right? I mean, because I think it people always always gravitate towards I don't know, cars or they gravitate towards um sporting goods. Yeah. Really, the the true power of composites sits in infrastructure and construction.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

Because it has to and I fully agree, because it has to last. Yes. Right? And uh welds are just not there to last. They are the uh acillisole of every structure, so uh that you weld. And so yeah. Is there a tipping point with regard to this?

SPEAKER_03 29:07

That where you know, where adaptation and thinking is is taking away.

SPEAKER_04 29:13

I I think I mean it's a really interesting question because I mean people ask me all the time, you know, how do we drive the penetration of composites in building construction infrastructure? And you know, and I think I've seen it, I've seen it in many different countries. And I and I think you look at stuff like, I mean, I don't know, many years ago, you know, I we we purchased a rebar business in North America and we worked at figuring out how to actually drive adoption of composite rebar in North America. And you ended up in an environment where we had some DOTs who are actually relatively forward-thinking, right? So, I mean, I think the Florida DOT is probably the most forward-thinking, you know, transport uh authority that you'll see. They have hundreds of bridges, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of bridges, and they're all in salty water. Yeah. Guess what's happening to them? Yeah. Right. So I mean, okay, you've got you've got repair or you've got replacement, but I mean, they got to the point where they actually they actually spec'd and said, okay, we're not going to build with steel in the in the bridge decks anymore because it's a disaster. Right. So you saw you saw people adopting this technology, but I I think you know, I always say that the first discussion that people have, and they say, Oh, we need to educate people at university about the use of composites. And I say, Well, I I I'm not sure I agree with that because I think basically an engineer is a rational being. It's probably the definition of a rational being. If you have a standard and specification that enables you to use a composite material and it's clear about the use case and the benefit of the material, someone will select it. And I think in some rec in some questions, it's more about the standards and specifications that are allowing the use of composite materials across a broad range of applications, which will change. And I think you start to see it in certain areas where these specifications and standards are emerging which are allowing people to make the choice.

unknown 31:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:06

And I think that's really the key question you get to. Because if you say, Oh, I need to educate people in universities is a long journey to material adoption.

SPEAKER_03 31:13

Exactly. But the the the thing that strikes me, you know, it's all pure logic. If you look at you know, cost, if you look at uh applications, if you look at durability and stuff like that, CO2 emission and all this stuff is it's pure logic.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

Yeah, and and it it reminds me of um uh a story that Marcus Kramer of Airborne said it what if composite would would be there first, right? Yeah, and you then would say, I have a new material, it's uh steel, and we need to dig it up, and uh we have to make uh big factories to melt it, and then big fact factories to make it into products. Uh and then you would ask, okay, and does it work? Does any yeah, you have to be careful with water because then and if you look at at just that storyline is that if you would have composite first, you would probably never see steel uh happening. Um but yeah, that is just uh but you have to be cost effective.

SPEAKER_04 32:09

Yeah, this is the key question. You have to be cost effective.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

And and that's why I believe this in this hybrid uh where you use steel in its let's say in its highest value, that's just stiffness over dollar, maybe. That's uh um normally I say kilograms, but uh I think uh steel is the the best stiffness supplier that you can buy, but it is prone to indeed uh corrosive environments, it's prone when you heat it up with welts. So if you then combine that with let's say not deteriorating the material, then then I think you have bet the best of two worlds.

SPEAKER_04 32:44

Isn't it symbiotic? Yeah, yeah, it's symbiotic. I mean I and I think it's really it's a change in mindset. I mean, I think if you get away from the point about I need to substitute it, but I actually change the mindset and say I actually need to figure out how these materials work in the best way, there you go. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

And I I think one of the um so we we we target, of course, these uh high steel structures, but what I also still believe that for composite is a is a is a let's say a future market because it's not uh uh a mature market, is this floating structures as in uh floating wind? It doesn't make sense to make them fully out of steel because it needs to be light and it needs to last, but then how to make these well, these are really gigantic massive, massive things, and and where we can composite play a role, and I think we we start to and then um I think there there we can do a lot, and also um at at Jack uh was also uh this I think it was one guy who said, Yeah, we're going to build uh with Google data centers offshore. And I alright, but then they need to be let's say long lasting, right? Because if you do that with uh steel structures only, then uh so this is another follow-up that we uh sure.

SPEAKER_03 34:03

You you signed a memor a memorandum of understanding. Could you elaborate a bit on that? Uh what that means.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

Um yeah, for for us, it is uh okay, we we what we want to achieve is large and large volumes as well. And then uh when you really start to look into the numbers and see, okay, how are you going to do that? Uh we initially thought, yeah, okay, you know, we have to do everything because everything we do is is unique and uh okay, then you build your your business case, your investment plan, and then you start to talk to indeed uh partners, and you realize, whoa, actually, there are people who could actually help us, and uh and instead of doing everything yourself, we're actually going to to look at partners where you let's say uh can grow faster but also be a more reliable uh party. And then yeah, I think we it is a result of a uh 12 months of uh of of talks about how we uh how could we collaborate and uh what can we mean for each other, and I think I'm I'm truly happy that okay we get to this understanding that actually we can do that, right? So that's what it means for I think for tree composites is just okay. It shows that we are really serious about scaling. Chris.

SPEAKER_04 35:24

Yeah, I mean for me it's a funny story. I um I was in I was in Oslo Airport speaking to Maxim and his team on the on a video call.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 35:34

Um and we were talking about the requirement to help them grow. And and he said, you know, I I need this money to do this. I said, Well, yeah, but uh we do this already. What? What you do this already? I said, yeah, we do this already, and we do it a big scale, right? In different in a different market, basically in the wind energy market. So I mean it makes sense for us to actually help you through this process. I mean, I looked at it and go like, no one company can create a transformation like this. It's gonna take a village of people, it's gonna take, you know, it's gonna take us, it's gonna take tree, it's gonna take other people to actually kind of do this thing. So I mean, really, there's this point about how do you optimize the material, how do you optimize the supply chain, and then how do you deploy. You know, and I think I think my view of this is that we can play a role to help tree through this process, and we can play a role to help the other parties through this process as well, because I think at the end of the day, the most important thing is the technology is adopted.

unknown 36:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:29

Right. I mean, that for me is the key point. If the technology is adopted, okay, I'm one of the largest glass suppliers in the world, I'll probably sell the glass or some of it, right? Okay, selling some of it or all of it versus none of it is beneficial for me. It's a difference. Right. So I kind of look at it and go, so I think for us, we look at it and say, we've got capability through this chain, be it be it glass, be it material production, be it material conversion, that can enable tree to go quicker. Because that's really the key thing. The key thing, I mean, in in these markets, material conversion and launching new solutions takes a long time and it's hard work. Best to have some friends to help you in that process. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

Figures. And it was not that we didn't have friends yet, and it's also right, um, but we didn't realize that okay, uh they are they they have quite they also have friends which could help us with us, right? So friends are friends, yes. No, so it it if you just see okay, uh the amount of partners let's say in the wind energy uh um let's say sector is already uh and then we're the the direct party who we work with are already over ten, and then if you look at the supply chain, I think there are maybe like 15 or something that we work with with just to make sure that uh and and then okay, uh then we had one major, let's say okay, what if we scale to uh for one wind farm? Uh for those who don't know, it's like uh uh five thousand tons of composite, which doesn't if you don't know what that is, but it is um that you have to produce, let's say, in six months. So then it's um uh at a certain point five to ten thousand uh a day. Um and then it just okay, what does it mean that you would, for example, have glass, but then also a truck of 10,000 liters of resin being let's say injected at a day, as in okay, whoa, okay, and then you start to think about okay, you really need to look at okay, right now, how do you scale to that point? Yeah and uh and the choices that you make in material, but also in processes in in terms of scalability. Um, you have to do that right now, and you have to discuss with the parties that scale with you how you're going to do that. Uh, and yeah, this is what we are going to um let's say strengthen, I think, because we already think about it from day one. That's why we switch from hand lamination to a VI uh process. Um but now uh I think uh we we are gonna at least I think to make it very simple, we're gonna make uh our life uh a little bit more uh easy. Easy. That's actually the the whole intent, that we make what we do a little bit more easy by just also uh bringing in all of the experience about what did work in the past, um, but also what um what are the consequences for certain choices if you're going to go to these uh skills and volumes. And um yeah, and I think that is really really why uh uh I'm happy that we are not going to take on this challenge alone. I I can imagine.

SPEAKER_04 39:46

But but I think there is one point which is which is noticeable, right? Which is which is kind of different with tree than you see in a lot of startups. I mean, I think the ecosystem you've built all the way through the valley chain is quite interesting and it's quite special, you know. So I mean, I think I was lucky enough to be invited to go to Amsterdam to stand on the stage and watch you know, watch the banging of the gong. Yeah. Um but it was intriguing for me in terms of the breadth of the ecosystem that's been assembled by Tree to actually enable this adoption. And that's the difference.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:18

Right. And I I think it's I think that really is gonna that would that will make a big difference to the the the speed and the and the adoption of this technology because often people are focused on the material and they're not they don't understand. I mean, it's all about the value chain. How do you actually configure a value chain to make this work? Exactly. So it's it's great to see.

SPEAKER_03 40:37

But to wrap this this episode up, Chris. Um no, I'm not sorry. No, no, this is very interesting. Uh but but but we have to wrap it up. Yeah, we can talk about it, yeah, sure. Um if we look you you you're you yeah, I mean Owen Corner Owens Corning is is one is the leader in in this respect. So you have a perspective on where the world is going, I guess. If we look uh 10, maybe 20, but let's start with 10 years ahead. How do you see this this whole thing develop?

SPEAKER_04 41:06

Um I mean Maxim talked about it earlier. I mean, I think when you look at the predicted growth rate of wind energy, um I mean I mean I've lived it for 16 years now, and it's always this, we always have this joke about okay, what's the gigawatt install gonna be next year? Because whatever you think it is, it's not that. Right. But the line goes up. Now the point is the gradient of the line is starting to change. So you start to look at it and say, okay, if you project forward 10, 10 years, the scale of the wind energy market is gonna be astronomical, right? It's gonna be a significant, I mean, it could be 20, 30, 40 percent of the overall composites industry. A lot of that's offshore.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:48

Right? A lot of it's offshore, particularly in Europe. I mean, in Europe, pretty much all of it is offshore, right? So you kind of look at it and go, I think you're gonna be in a situation where you're gonna have a bigger wind energy market that's gonna require very efficient production processes because these blades are enormous. I mean, if you've ever seen if you've never seen one, they're enormous. Yes. And they're only gonna get bigger, and the towers are gonna go on are only gonna get bigger, right? And I think this point of you're gonna see this this opportunity to actually create a market that's gonna be transformational but also significant in scale, which I think is super interesting. Um, you know, so I I think for me that's how I see the 10 years, and I think what we'll also see, we'll start to see the adoption of composites into more building construction infrastructure type applications because the value proposition makes sense, you know, and I think unfortunately there's areas of the world where there's infrastructure that needs to be rebuilt for certain reasons, and you look at it and say composites, I think, is going to play a bigger role in those areas than probably it's played before. Yeah. And I think, you know, if you look at it from an from a traditional market perspective, I think automotive is it's kind of, I mean, for me, it's kind of peaked.

unknown 43:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:02

Right. And I think you look at you look at electric vehicles and stuff like that, they don't have water systems, they don't have oil systems. So I think the trend in composite usage will shift towards building construction infrastructure and renewable energy. Yeah. It's gonna be key.

SPEAKER_00 43:19

Uh yeah, okay. Yeah, I I cannot add a lot. The only thing that I still have is um because we didn't touch upon it, and I'm quite uh uh quite interested in at Owens Corning, you do a lot on the sustainability part. Um and uh I just wanted to ask, okay, what are what are the current trends uh that you see in in that respect?

SPEAKER_04 43:45

I composites is an is an intriguing material, right? You're gonna spend your life building structures that are incredibly durable, right? The problem with durable structures is at the end of their life, they're quite difficult to deal with. Um and I I think As we go forward, we see that circularity is becoming it's not today, it's a nice to have, eventually it's going to be a must-to have. And the question you then have to deal with is okay, how do I deliver circularity within the composites industry? Okay, so I mean what we do is we think about it in in some simple steps. The first one is you have to make sure your house is clean, and what does that mean? Stop putting things in the landfill. Okay, we produce when we produce glass, we have process waste. Okay, so the point is what do you do with the process waste? Ideally, the process waste needs to go back in the process. Okay, our c our customers, our converters, they have process waste. What do they do today? Most of it gets landfilled. Okay, we have to clean that as well. And then eventually you get to the point of end of life, and then you've got a composite. You don't have glass waste, you have a composite. So then you've got to think about okay, how do I deal with that? Now, classically, what people have thought about is oh, I'll just chop it into little bits and I think about turning it into a new material. Go back to what we said at the start. I sell specific modulus per dollar. If you chop it into little bits, a specific modulus per dollar is not that great. Right? So what do you need to do? You need to separate the resin from the glass, you need to put the glass back in the furnace, and you need to reduce pristine glass again, which has got the right specific modulus per dollar. Which makes it circular. Which makes it circular. So really our whole process is about building the capability of all of those steps to enable us to actually put the material back in the furnace. And then the fundamental thing you've got is okay, I've built circularity, but then how do I deal with embodied carbon? I deal with embodied carbon by melting with hydrogen instead of a natural gas. So today we're running our plant in France for an extended period on hydrogen gas to actually look at the implications of how to actually use this at scale. But but essentially what we've done is we've produced a 95% reduction in CO2 in the in the glass material. 95%. Well, it's hydrogen, right? There's bits of the there's bits of the furnace we still need to heat with gas at the moment. We look at it and go, but really the point is we've demonstrated that we can do it, and we've demonstrated that we can actually put recycled glass back in it. So essentially you've demonstrated circularity now. Is it more expensive? Yes, it's more expensive at the moment. Is it going to get cheaper? It will get cheaper with time, as you know, as electrolyzer technology improves and stuff like that. But really for us, the key point is we have to have a circular business. We have to have it.

SPEAKER_03 46:28

So that's the point. But but the the takeaway I have is that you know, although we are in in terms of glass and in terms of a composite, we are well underway, but still we are in a very early stage with regard to uh adapting uh and and and and then building and constructing and stuff like that. So there are there's not one world to win, there are more worlds to win. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 46:51

Yeah, yeah. For me, what what uh Chris said is is for for me personally that's really important because the last thing that uh that I intended to do is cause waste at the end, right? So I'm really excited about that. We can already have like zero waste during production, that we actually can reuse that. And also uh, besides, of course, uh uh I think the the joint on its own even can be reused or repurposed. That's already good. But at the end of the life that we could reuse the the glass into let's say the new generation, that's where I I get excited isn't because then we really do what we want to do is accelerate uh the energy transition with a low impact on the environment.

SPEAKER_03 47:35

And as long as we keep telling everybody the story, I'm sure that they will be excited as well.

SPEAKER_04 47:41

Yeah, uh I mean I think it's about it's about communicating clearly. And I and I think you look at it and go, it's okay, we're delivering circularity and we're focused on reducing body carbon.

SPEAKER_03 47:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:51

It's not that complicated.

SPEAKER_03 47:52

I want to thank you very much, Chris, for coming over from Brussels to sunny Daague. It's not sunny anymore. Not an sunny anymore. It looks like it's gonna rain. No, it was sunny when we started. Uh no, thank you very, very much, uh Chris, um uh for being in Future in Steel, and of course, for you know, for your um your explanation of you know where we are at the moment, and definitely for the explanation where we are going, because that is more exciting, because you know, the excitement is in the future, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 48:23

Oh, my pleasure. It's been great fun.

SPEAKER_03 48:25

Thank you very much. Thanks. All right. You've been listening to Future in Steel: a glimpse into Europe's industrial future. With thanks to Chris Skinner and Maxime Seg. If you want to know how your company can benefit from the Composite Revolution, or if you are interested in investing and becoming part of this development, don't hesitate to contact Recomposites. They'll be happy to assist you. And for now, my name is Coach Walters, and see you in the next Future in Steel. You have been listening to the Future in Steel, a podcast series about the Composite Revolution, brought to you by Tree Composites, winner of the 2025 Chamber of Commerce Innovation Award. If you haven't already, please subscribe to this series on your favorite podcast platform. Or visit the Tree Composite website for additional resources. Thank you again for listening, and we look forward to bringing you more insight in the future in Steel.