Mees Wolters and Tim Kapteijn about composite joints as a new design philosophy for steel structures everywhere

In previous episodes of Future in Steel, we explored how composite joints have the potential to fundamentally change offshore wind by addressing one of the industry’s biggest constraints: fatigue in welded steel connections. But what happens when this technology moves beyond offshore wind? As a new design philosophy for steel structures everywhere? Today, we talk to experts who represent both sides of that transition: Mees Wolters, CTO of Tree Composites (who brings the technology to life at the deepest engineering level) and Tree Composites Business Developer Tim Kapteijn (who connects that technology to real-world applications and markets). Hear them explore how the composite revolution could reshape not only offshore energy, but also bridges, infrastructure, and the future of steel itself.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:07

You're listening to Future in Steel, a podcast series about the Composite Revolution. Brought to you by Tree Composites, winner of the 2025 Chamber of Commerce Innovation Award. Hear how challenges, vision, and real-world innovation meet. How leaning Dutch companies, innovators, and key stakeholders share their vision on the future of industry, steel, and manufacturing. Strengthening Europe's position as a global economic power in a rapidly shifting geopolitical landscape. Glad you're listening. You're listening to Future in Steel, the podcast series about the composite revolution where innovation, engineering, and real-world application come together to reshape the future of offshore energy and industrial structures. In previous episodes of Future in Steel, we explored how composite joints have the potential to fundamentally change offshore wind by addressing one of the industry's biggest constraints fatigue in welded steel connections. But what happens when this technology moves beyond offshore wind? As a new design philosophy for steel structures everywhere. Today we talk to experts who represent both sides of that transition. Mace Walters, CTO of Tree Composite, who brings the technology to life at the deepest engineering level, and Tree Composite business developer Tim Kaptain, who connects that technology to real-world application and market. Hear them explore how the composite revolution could reshape not only offshore energy, but also bridges, infrastructure, and the future of steel itself. Tim Mace. A warm welcome to Future in Steel. Glad to have you. Super. Thank you. Happy to be here. Yeah, good to have you. Hey to start off, um a question to you both. And I'll start off with uh with with you, Tim. If you look at where we are today, we look at the the development in industry and stuff in steel in general. Um we have are we still in a technology phase or are we already in a transition phase towards industry and adoption? What do you think, Tim? I think for sure the the second, the second, okay.

SPEAKER_05 2:27

Adoption uh the adoption phase. Yeah. So if you look back where we started, we uh started with uh producing and designing single specimen for uh for testing in the laboratory. Yeah, and then we started with batches of specimen, increasing both the uh the the amounts and the sizes up to the full skill level. Uh and then we uh made also a uh a floater structure that really already went offshore. That was wonderful to see. Yeah so uh and yeah, last uh last year, uh end of last year we made a skill jacket, yeah. So really uh yeah, stepping up the game. Yeah. And yeah, in parallel, we're also already designing structures for uh yeah for offshore applications. So um yeah, we're doing commercial studies already for uh TSOs and uh wind developers, wow, uh where we uh apply our design approaches that come out of the RepNote 1 and RepNote 2 project. Yeah, and we apply those uh those methods uh in real projects already, uh, where we demonstrate that it technically is is feasible to to design for these uh for these loads in these structures, bending, uh actual loading, uh, and also that we can uh yeah, that it can save demonstrates the performance in these studies. So it's both yeah, showing technical feasibility and showing the economic benefit in these uh studies, yeah. So yeah, for sure the transition towards industrial uh industrial adoption. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

Wow. Mays, how are you how are you looking at this?

SPEAKER_00 3:50

I agree. Uh but at the same time, uh technology is under development, so I would say we're at the early transition to uh full adoption. Yeah um we have been uh talking to DNV over the years, and the certification pathway is uh still in uh development uh where we would need full certification uh to get full adoption in the industry.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Okay, Maxine. Yes, I'm I'm just listening to the last word. I'm just listening to the to both guys who are are here from the start of the company, right? So they've they've seen the entire development, and I think um both of them are are completely right, as in on one hand we see hey, uh the adoption is already ongoing at the same time. Okay, we're sure we we still want to do things more and more uh let's say accurate, um and and let's say reduce all of the let's say uh in terms of BMV uncertainties in the design. At the same time, Mace, uh we know that it works.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Yeah, well I 100% I 100% agree that it works, but our potential clients uh would need another um independent body to confirm that.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

And and and that that's also um I don't know how you regard it. I see it as a matter of time and also available, let's say, funds to pay uh, let's say the reviews of DMV. Uh I don't know how you look at that.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

I agree. Um we need funds, people, and time uh to be able to get full certification in order to convince uh the clients.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

And do you think that um that the technology is is then still to be proven to them, or do you think it's more a matter of uh showing them the data that well we know that we that it works, but they also have to agree. Or how do you see that maybe that's better instead of a yes over not?

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Talking to D and V is uh like a peer review. So uh we are fully convinced that it works, and D is their task is to ask the hard questions, yeah. Uh, which uh sometimes uh also come out of uh um uh corners which we didn't expect. Um in that sense, uh it's always good to have an independent body breaking their minds over our technology uh to also convince ourselves in the end. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

And do you enjoy those uh those talks with uh DMV? Let's say not I I uh fully understand it's not everything, but uh, what are the things that you do enjoy?

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Maybe that's the question that I uh well them diving as deep as us into the technology because in the end they need to put a stamp on it that they also trust it 100%. Um that is interesting to me. So um, of course, we can um dive into it from our own perspective, but the the goal of DMV is to that they approach it from every possible perspective and to uh um fully well pull our technology apart to also understand it to the deepest level as uh as we also do.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

It it that it brings me to a question, uh Mace. You you talk about you know taking a deep dive together with with the parties and uh outside of V Composite. Are are there still misconceptions about this technology, or is that not the case?

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Well, I think the biggest misconception is that a um bonded joint is unreliable. While we have proven over the years in uh our laboratory tests that that's not the case, uh we have gone uh through uh many uh component tests, uh uh over a thousand uh small coupon tests to prove um that our our our bond is reliable.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

Yeah Tim, do do you how do you see that? Do you you are doing business development? Do you see misconceptions in the market?

SPEAKER_05 7:50

Yeah, for sure. So um if you look at uh the time that we're already already welding steel tubulars, that is uh a long time. Lots of developments went in there to do that more efficient, to reduce stress concentrations. But if you look then at yeah, what we are doing, we're making a connection, a structural connection, without any welding, connecting steel tubular tubulars, relying on the bonding. And yeah, I looked at the recent designs we're doing and looking at the the loads that we're transferring, that we are able to transfer both in design and in the testing, of course. So that can go up to like uh more than 10 uh meganewtons. So and that that's really a lot. So that's an actual load. And if you look at the bending case, it can also go up to uh 10,000 kilonewton meters. And yeah, designing uh bonded joints for uh for these loads, uh that is something that yeah that is not yet understood well. So that's something uh really uh transformational. And it's new for two people, probably. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they compare it always, then also with uh yeah, if you duct tape something together, we get a joke uh multiple times, but yeah, you are using duct tape, and uh like uh my friends can also make sometimes make joke about jokes about it, and and then uh yeah, I know I'm serious. We're serious. We can really make this strong joint that can resist these high static loads. And if you then look at the fatigue performance, that is like magnitudes bigger, and there you can yeah both reduce the steel material in these structures, yeah. Uh, and secondly, also have like longer lifetimes, so it's not only reducing steel, same lifetime, uh, but it's both, so and longer lifetime and reducing your materials, and a lower CO2 CO2 emission and anything else, Maxime.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Well, no, I think uh uh Tim is uh spot on, and at the same time, I I also think that uh what was Mace was talking about uh why are people not using it right now? And I think Tim Tim uh has a lot of talks with uh with the parties. Um but I'm also curious, uh uh I I I of course can give my vision on it, but I'm also curious as okay, how important in the initial, let's say, um adoption phase is the certification, for example, that was Mace was talking about. Do you see that they they ask for it? And uh if you look at what we've we are doing, um yeah, uh are we on the right track?

SPEAKER_05 10:11

Maybe that's um so certification, so especially in this uh offshore market we're targeting. Uh yeah, it's in almost each conversation uh it comes by. So uh are the in yeah, like just steel projects, certification can be challenging for the off and it's needed for the offshore wind to be able to finance these these wind farms to to ensure your your structures as an asset owner. You need the certified uh yeah technologies in there. And yeah, what each in each conversation we have, it's okay, uh, what's the certification stage uh status? And uh yeah, what what is your uh plan towards uh like food certification and so and and there yeah, together with the team, we're working really uh hard on that. So I was involved myself and also, of course, together with Mace, like in the design uh certification for the C-level statement of compliance we currently have. And there, yeah, we we noticed okay, uh we had to involve both like the the steel experts uh from the certification body and also the composite experts. So we're typically involved in wind turbine blades, and uh, we're exactly in the middle of this. Like yeah, we use steel, we use uh composite, and yeah, so we need to have to convince more experts, like uh two experts or even four experts on the table, uh, that that we have a solution that they can trust and that works and and and that we can uh go to the next phase.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

It sounds it makes it sounds to me like a risk as a risk assessment, basically, what they're what they're trying to do in their own business. They're just trying to look at the risk of applying such a new thing, and uh well, they want to be sure that everything goes alright. Is that is that basically what is what it bears down to?

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Yeah, so without certification, uh a client would need to do their own risk assessment. Yeah, uh, what are the risks if we apply this? Uh and a certification body could take that risk away for them, yeah. Um enabling uh our the our joint technology to be applied in their structures, yeah, yeah, I can imagine.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

No, and I think we um we knew that from day one, yeah, right. Because this is, I think, one of the first uh conversations that we had is okay, what are we going to do? Um and the early involvement of DMV was already uh existing prior to the start of uh let's say the company, even and I think uh people know that, at least our clients know that. Uh they even requested it, right? So if we are going to develop something new, then the roadmap should be there to full adoption, right? And then um, I think uh what may uh what uh Tim was uh saying, Tim was uh leading uh the first part of uh of let's say the the steps to get full qualification, they call it. Just for people who don't know, it's mainly means that you can apply the composite joint in many uh orientations and different skills and different uh let's say load combinations. So we knew okay what we what the target is, and then the roadmap we formed and we started to execute in 2021. And already prior to it we were, I think, uh gathering data. Also, the project that both gentlemen uh worked on during their uh studies, even right, uh contributed to it. So I'm I I'm just I'm quite certain, or quite certain, I'm 100% certain actually that we can finish it. Um and I I think it's good that that clients say, Hey, how far are you? or we can even show okay, this is what we do, this is where we are right now, and this is more or less the time we needed uh to finish it.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

I I asked uh Mace, I asked uh in a previous episode of Futuring Steel, I asked Marko Pavlovich, one of the co-inventors of this whole this whole thing. Uh if if you look at this in terms of development in on a scale of one to ten, he said, Well, we've passed the nine. Is that something you feel as well?

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Yeah, we we can design it, we can manufacture it. It works, right? We can make it work, yeah, 100%. Um now we need to convince also other people of that, and there are things two things necessary for that certification and a track record.

SPEAKER_04 14:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

So and that's where where Tim is of course uh busy with, and um I think um yeah, what do you think that the the biggest misconception is at the at the moment if you talk to new uh let's say uh we are busy with many uh clients, but if you talk to a party who are unfamiliar with with our uh with our technology, what is the misconception that you have to answer most of the times?

SPEAKER_05 14:41

One of the big misconceptions is that uh they they they see the wrapping as a kind of uh corrosion protection, so that it protects the steel, the the welded connection against uh corrosion. Uh but then yeah, I really have to yeah, we really have to explain multiple times there is no complex no-tubular joint weld below the composite, so it's really transferred just by bonding, and there yeah, it needs some sometimes some iterations to to to understand that get your mind around that because if you then look also, yeah, what does that does that mean? And is if you uh typically if you fabricate these structures, like designing it for uh yeah, the the proper fatigue life is challenging, so you need to take measures to to uh yeah boost this fatigue life of these tubular joints, especially where the tubulars come in in an angle. So uh yeah, they one one method is that you increase uh the the wall thickness of your members, so you add steel to make it work. But if you you cannot increase it because there are some uh limitations in your design, uh you look at other methods. So, can we, for example, weld it uh from both the inside and the outside of the tubular to uh yeah to make it uh fatigue resistant, uh to up to the level that that is possible with welds to improve the fatigue loss. Uh but then yeah, if you then look what does that mean then for fabrication? So, okay, in the design it works, you weld from both the outside and the inside, but in the fabrication you also have to make that weld from the inside. So it means that you need to cut your structure next to the yeah the joints, yeah, make an additional circumferential uh weld there, so to connect the tube to tube. Uh and yeah, the welder needs to go in and make that weld. Sounds sounds a lot more expensive to me. Exactly. So it's additional welding volumes with yeah, with the composite joint uh application, you only have to apply it from the outside. So you don't need to cut your structure at specific locations, add circumferential welds, uh so and it add both to the fatigue resistance of your total structure, yeah, but also to your fabrication efficiency. Total logic, Mace.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Yeah, and it's is becoming more and more relevant every year with bigger turbines on the way, uh deeper waters, uh, floating structures, yeah. Where these uh problems are only becoming bigger and bigger, and our solution becomes more and more relevant.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

And I'm I'm curious, you say okay, the problems are getting bigger and bigger, and I think for you it's a well crystal clear. But why do you think the problems are getting bigger and bigger?

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Well, I think there's demand for bigger structures because we need to scale up uh uh our energy supply uh to keep up with the demand. With bigger structures, bigger turbines, there's also bigger loads, and at the same time we want these structures to be offshore for longer. Most efficient, maybe even. Exactly. Um and solving that issue with steel, you need to use more and more steel uh because of the welds? Because of because it is welded indeed, and uh that's where we can actually take away these issues uh with our technology and to reduce the overall uh cost of energy as a whole.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

So if you would summarize it in your words, um what does fundamentally change if you don't weld compared to weld? So if we do the composite joint, what does let's say fundamentally change in how the force are transferred?

SPEAKER_00 18:12

For a weld, it's a small welded area, it's a small region with a hot spot stress, stress concentration, and this stress concentration then uh drives the design of the structure. Um we take that stress concentration away and spread it around the surface of the steel for this crack then uh to grow uh over this uh large area of the composite rep. There's more energy necessary uh, and in the end that's how we can uh get much longer lifetimes compared to welded steel.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Okay, so you can uh you can take higher loads compared to a welded structure for a crack to grow.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

I wouldn't say higher loads, but we can uh endure it for much longer than a welded structure.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

And and and you you uh Tim, you you talk uh to a lot of partners or you a lot of uh companies and and and and and uh uh technical people around around the world. Um if you look at you know the the the the business case that they're looking at. They always look at a business case, how to apply this this technology. What is what is the most overriding for them? Is that cost, is that lifetime, weight reduction, CO2 reduction? It's all in it's all in this this this development.

SPEAKER_05 19:39

So that uh or all yeah depends on the application, but uh yeah, with uh our core focus on the offshore wind market, we see there it's really cost-driven. Okay. So uh if we can make it cheaper, it helps the project developer to have a positive business case. Okay. Uh so that is one yeah, uh one of the main things. But I also see that with uh with composite materials, if you only look at the CapEx, so the money that you need to spend to develop your project, uh it's it can uh yeah it it's we we can go with with with our solution, we can make uh cost reductions already possible there, so at the the first, uh but also during the lifetime. If you look at uh the OPEC, so the the amounts of uh man hours and and money you spent on the maintenance, uh there is also like a high potential for composites because yeah, in the seawater environment, the the steel that will uh corrode, so you have all kinds of measures like coating. What Mix was talking about, yeah. Exactly, like uh ICCP systems uh to to protect the steel. Uh but if you have like at these corrosion prone areas, which are typically also these uh these tubular joints, uh which are also hard to inspect. If you have there your corrosion protection, like the uh the composite protecting the steel against the corrosion, you can also save in in your maintenance of your structures.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

Exactly. So and and and another element, Maxime, is that you know uh with this technology, this whole these these steel structures can be fabricated in Europe itself.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Yes, and um before we go into that, because um I think I think we uh Tim touched upon this uh nice uh uh thing on uh corrosion prone areas, right? So the weld itself, uh um because it needs to be protected against uh corrosion in the splash uh in the splash zone where you have uh the ideal uh let's say combination for corrosion. Uh and it is so strict that it cannot really have the weld and its lifetime, it cannot accept, let's say, corrosion. So it needs to be coated, and these coatings are strictly um how do you call it um inspected, and it's a three three or five layer system if I'm if I'm uh uh correct. And it

SPEAKER_05 22:00

cannot it cannot or really it it it may not corrode right because then it would affect the lifetime but now if you don't have the weld we have the the composite there right exactly so this this high pronus of of lifetime due to corrosion is suddenly gone at least for the structural aspect of your of your structure and I think sometimes people overstep that that okay also these additional benefits if in not having a weld not having the weld to be the the the let's say prone part or the lifetime um is is sometimes overlooked how much of a of a step we are making in and reducing all of the let's say pains that we currently have with making uh steel structures so I'm I'm I'm happy that you touched upon it because I I I truly think that this is an implicit benefit which is uh or yeah which is sometimes not uh taken into account good dimension but then on making uh let's say the the the the jackets um and and that's where where Tim is also uh involved because cost reduction is of course uh related to the way that you uh fabricate it yeah and then on one one hand we look at okay how much time does it cost to make a joint but also how fast can we make it and that's where we are currently uh with uh some yards um we are actually identifying the um the positive effect on throughput as uh as in okay currently they can make uh for example one jacket uh per week so how much can we yeah produce at the same location with the same amount of area with less people well we already know that we can do more than double it and it's all dependent on okay um how fast can we make composite joints yeah and that's where we I think uh and that was what Mace also was uh was was talking about um we are developing also the scalable let's say and uh on-site methodologies to produce joints and that's where I I I think um that's where we can make the biggest impact and um because if we can make it faster for less money in Europe then we have a competitive let's say advantage to the rest of the world and then we can start making our own jackets uh for European projects again yeah Tim how do you feel that uh the yards are responding to this um let's say our composite joints we make it on site now what's what's your opinion about uh the acceptance of or or the positive effects uh of the composite joints for fabrication speed how do you see that they are reacting on it yeah so if uh we're talking to a lot of uh fabricators uh and uh yeah you you notice in this talks that on the on the one hand they find really very interesting because there is like a a challenge that they they have uh and on the other hand uh yeah you also see that uh yeah they see that they have a lot of welders on their payroll so okay uh if you do not weld what do we do with the workforce and so you you really see that that yeah we're making uh it it can be a big impact for for them if they're going to build it yeah with with with the composite joints uh and yeah the the challenge that they're currently having if if yeah based on the talks we we have with them we see that especially for uh serial jacket fabrication the jacket foundation fabrication that yeah a lot of welding hours go in there it can be uh yeah based on the talks we had it can be 30 to 50 thousand of welding hours within one jacket foundation and then you need to make like 60 of those for one wind farm and if you then compare like the the the the the labor rates in Europe compared to uh like the Far East uh there's there's a big difference like a factor 10 between uh though those rates and yeah so you see a lot of developers they want uh their business cases challenging uh they need uh yeah they need that foundation they need it at the lowest price possible so you see the they're uh looking at at the yards at the Far East who fabricated for uh a lower price for them uh which is yeah lower than what what they can buy in Europe and there we see uh yeah one of the big uh challenges of these fabrication yards that their yards are idle uh while uh we spent all that yeah money that we put in our infrastructure we spent it in the far east and do not invest in our economy so so we can really strengthen like uh yeah the yards by building smart with the composite joints to to build it more efficient and get a yeah make a a Europe-made foundation which is competitive with the prices they offer in uh in the Far East it would mean a more efficient structure in the end uh it is like Tim mentions is this is also an ask from these manufacturers that we go on their yard uh teach these people how to do it uh such that they also keep the labor in and uh keep their hours in the end for us uh this also changes uh how we manufacture our joints and this is has to then be developed co-developed with these manufacturers yeah and that's something uh we're also working on at least try to start these conversations we have these conversations how do we manufacture on site and also internally within three composites we're busy with this how do we do this how do we prepare for manufacturing on their yard and there are some differences so you triggered me with uh saying they keep our keep their hours but how do we then become competitive well we lower the total cost of the structure that's the idea so the amount of materials going in uh are significantly less and there's some also some trickle down effects because of the structure is uh lighter um their cranes uh can uh be used uh lighter cranes can be used lighter ships can be used and this uh opens up uh the market again okay and do you um if I say okay with the same workforce they can produce twice or three times more and by that also uh become more cost effective and we're the we're working towards that to make that happen.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Yeah wow three to four two to three times faster well I mean that's that's that's a that's that's a number really well the the thing of course uh uh Tim already said okay we're talking with these um these fabricators and yes they would like to do a part of uh let's say the activities with their existing or at least with a workforce that they have in-house but at the same time we're reducing the the amount of hours let's say spent per jacket otherwise we are not uh making a jacket competitive to uh to the Far East or the Middle East uh at the moment that's the way it is so that that that is what we are actually doing is reducing the amount of hours by industrializing the way we build jackets uh today such that we can build the jackets in the future.

SPEAKER_05 29:05

And we we've been talking about structures on wind on sea on sea if we talk beyond that there are so many if if I I listen I I I read uh through the papers that you produce I I see so many possibilities with regard to construction in and bridges uh s sluisses uh what have you Tim there the the the I mean this in the incredible possibilities yeah so indeed uh goes it's uh yeah it's a lot of uh structures that yeah that are welded so yeah and that's also like on the one hand yeah that's really positive and yeah we have like uh we can have a potential big impact but on the other hand it's also sometimes challenging to focus as as a startup company of course but you know yeah so but uh yeah one of these uh for example yeah we also talk to uh yeah to companies that are active in onshore structures so for example if we look at uh at a roller coaster uh you have a supporting uh supporting structure there yeah uh columns also with tubular joint welds and uh yeah there yeah you add steel because yeah this roller coaster is uh going over the the structure like over the the track like uh 25 years or more or they want to use it longer and you have your yeah your fatigue uh impact on on that structure and it's basically the same the same thing exactly exactly so there yeah we're really looking at yeah okay where is fatigue one of the or corrosion one of the drivers in the design and I think uh uh like a roller coaster is one of these uh yeah uh many examples where yeah we can have an impact and also in that sector you see that carbon footprint is uh yeah becoming more and more important important so uh if you want a low carbon uh roller coaster uh yeah please call here you go and that that and that is basically a maze is what you're doing through the hard work because this is hard work and proving you know you know that it works but you know you have to scale it up and and stuff like that that's what you've been telling about but you know the the the the possibilities are immense with not only in terms of sea but on land as well yeah the same principles apply um in all these uh structures uh steel structures um the biggest uh advantage of our technology is in of course in structures which are cyclically loaded um but in theory it can be applied uh to any steel tubular structure yeah and and we're talking about well I mean we're talking about maintenance of bridges in in at at this moment in the Netherlands and in Europe is uh in in in uh and there is as a a a certain type of bridges who has tubular uh uh uh structures that yeah I mean you you can and I'm looking to you Maxime we could this technology could very well be applied and you could you could strengthen uh those bridges and and and and extend their lifetime by I don't know how much percent.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Yeah and I think it's something that uh Mesa or not in this talk yet uh I think identified is that the amount of let's say uh funds available to make new uh let's say bridges are very limited because the funds uh to needed to actually repair and maintain and inspect current bridges are eating up all of the more or less funds to make new ones. That's a that's a tradition maybe that's a tradition of the catch 22 isn't it so no I I I think it's a very relevant one because I think in the Netherlands is we're talking about uh tens of billions of backlog that uh Rijkswaterstaat has yeah and I think uh I don't even want to know uh the rest of Europe but it is a gigantic market that lifetime extension uh how do you how are you going to do that with Weld's um not possible in my view uh at least not practically uh executable and we could just just go there uh we of course prepare uh uh let's say the services that uh that we can bond to it but then you actually you know well at least we know what the lifetime will be and I think that's something unique that we bring because um let's say in or reinforcing a weld is not new but really be able to predict let's say the lifetime of the let's say actually we were not reinforcing we're more or less taking over the load transfer and knowing okay we take it over there's a lifetime we can even embed optical fibers and I think that would give uh any bridge uh let's say uh um well let's call it bridge operator because I don't know how but a person who's responsible for the safety of a bridge would definitely like is that okay it's reinforced and I can also read out exactly what the lifetime is but I'm also um yeah um I'm very curious uh as in technically I I think we we we can do this the I would I would even dare to say that we could go beyond tubulars our in-depth knowledge uh from the behavior between steel and composite is something you cannot find in the market.

SPEAKER_05 34:13

So we could also do it for uh what what type of uh most I think only around the 90s they started using tubulars and um and bridges and before that all these bridges are built out of uh uh rectangular profiles uh age profiles uh profiles primarily not uh tubulars and so you you believe okay we can do any shape well I'm not saying today but uh with the knowledge that we have we can develop any shape I think there's now a demand to first um track um the performance of these structures and that's something we can do because we have the knowledge we do that also for our joints do you believe that for the profiles who you were talking about that we could well develop the technology for that application I think we can develop uh something for that application wow that means for me for me that means we can do it yes and meaning that is the majority of all bridges in the Netherlands well we have a lot of bridges and around 20% is made out of steel and then 80% is uh concrete okay so good point that that would open uh another uh research program uh looking into concrete connections okay sure but at the end of the day this is a development that can solve that problem where it is acute at the moment yeah yes there there's a demand yeah but I I I I think I very much like the answer because it just shows that okay uh for people who are thinking ah this might not be applicable to us don't exclude it just ask right exactly and um and it it it shows that okay um the for yeah well actually the tailorability of composites in civil structures is well yeah it's unlimited I think sky's the limit isn't it so any uh any connection that is let's say uh damaged uh reach out right that's I I would I would say and and and and to to wrap this whole thing up a question to all three of you what in the next five to ten years what needs to be done to really get this on on a on a a a full scale application level mace um for me it would be a um we need to build a major um reference project yeah to prove uh to the market uh that it works okay all right Tim yeah so uh I agree fully to that and uh I think it should be like a tier one player in the industry so one of the uh bigger companies that says okay uh we're going to uh do a full commercial project together uh so and if we have that one structure there we validate the yeah we showcase the the performance that it works uh on a full scale and also uh yeah we arrange the certification for that project and I think yeah if we do that with one of the the biggest like the tier one players like we're also in our rep note consortia a consortium uh that's yeah that also the other supply chain will follow so we really need this yeah this full scale commercial project uh certification uh approved performance validated and also showing the benefits and then the supply chain can follow I what I think Maxime and it's a final question to you I think these gentlemen are too modest I think uh modesty is uh I think maybe not modesty they um we want to be reliable so what we say yeah should be right right fact based Mace yeah I would say we are academic engineers heavily based on research and that also um makes it uh such that we want to be 100% sure before we put something out there yeah so and actually we we scrutinize ourselves as as bad as uh A D and V would do why because we really uh believe in the technology and we believe that the reliability of the technology is key to it that's why we did uh gather all of this data and not just cowboy our ways uh into it exactly um and I I I I like that approach and at the same time we are modest as in yes this is uh yeah but it's muscle but at the same time okay it is an amazing technology.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

I think what we're doing is not a small thing as in we should realize every at least sometimes I have to remind myself as okay what we're doing is really um yeah a big thing. This is also the thing why I believe uh everybody in our company gets up and really wants to make this happen because well we know that it works we only have to get it into the market. That's how I see our current challenges and that's on one hand to prove it on full scale but at the same time if we prove it on five different applications that's also good right so I we're just um yeah it's like uh we're there to break through with our breakthrough technology and um I'm excited about it and I I believe okay with well you call it modesty we we say okay reserved enthusiasm as in because we know that it works but we're not there yet exactly and I uh I like that approach and that's what I hear you say hear you say Mace it it we know it works and and of course the certification is very important it's all there but you know it works and that is the important thing yeah and for me it's also um well you've you've been with us uh well five years you're still enthusiastic you still are there with the drive what what what what fuels the drive for you for me this technology could be like a complete shift in how we design structures yeah uh completely rethink how we uh design structures for offshore wind and of course there are other applications but I think uh for me offshore wind and uh enabling uh that energy transition and a greener world that's the most important thing.

SPEAKER_05 40:28

Okay now for you Tim so you have a big drive where where does the fuel come from yeah for me it's uh I really like talking with all these uh industry players and uh understanding like what what is currently done without really doing it myself but really listening okay where are the challenges and yeah how can we then use this new technology to bring value to their projects and then making that connections and doing new things that's what I really like. So not doing like yeah things that are already have been done for years and do it each time again and in the same way but yeah doing it yeah something new uh understanding what they already did and then uh yeah uh make it more efficient make it smarter make it yeah uh uh also yeah more sustainable as May's also mentioned that's also what I like to to create a better world and and to give a compliment to you Maxime with all due respect but you know it is it must be a joy to bring together such great people.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

Yeah it is I'm I'm um every day I'm excited and of course there are always challenges but if there weren't it wasn't fun well the the thing that uh that I noticed more and more is that um I think we started off uh really also having fun then we became serious for a long period of of time and I noticed that we are getting into the mode that we can make jokes again and which is actually what uh what I I I like us to dare as in dare to have fun during this enormous journey.

SPEAKER_02 41:59

And a journey it is and I would like to thank you very very much for you wanted to say something you wanted to say something used to play table tennis table tennis coffee breaks on table tennis that is important as well in in yeah in in in in uh in in getting uh a composite revolution on the table exactly playing table tennis just okay thank you very much Tim thank you very much Mace and thank you very much Maxime thank you thank you you have your listening to Future in Steel a glimpse into Europe's industrial future with thanks to Mace Walters Tim Kaptein and Maxime Seyer if you want to know how your company can benefit from the composite advision or if you're interested in investing and becoming part of this development don't hesitate to contact Tree Composites they'll be happy to assist you and for now my name is Kos Wolchers and till the next Future in Steel You have been listening to the Future in Steel a podcast series about the composite revolution brought to you by Tree Composites winner of the 2025 Chamber of Commerce Innovation Award. If you haven't already please subscribe to this series on your favorite podcast platform or visit the Tree Composite website for additional resources. Thank you again for listening and we look forward to bringing you more insight in the future in Steel