Edwin van Drunen (Enersea) linking breakthrough technology to practical implementation

Today, we zoom in on the crucial link between breakthrough technology and practical implementation. Because innovation only becomes impactful when it is engineered into reality. Edwin van Drunen, Director of Enersea, plays a key role in translating new ideas into scalable, reliable solutions. Where Enersea is an offshore engineering company at the forefront of designing the next generation of offshore structures. with decades of experience and a deep understanding of the challenges at sea. What happens when composite joint technology meets real-world offshore engineering? And what does this mean for the future of jacket design, cost efficiency, and Europe’s position in offshore energy?

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

You're listening to Future in Steel, a podcast series about the Composite Revolution. Brought to you by Tree Composites, winner of the 2025 Chamber of Commerce Innovation Award. Hear how challenges, vision, and real-world innovation meet. How leaning Dutch companies, innovators, and key stakeholders share their vision on the future in industry, steel, and manufacturing. Strengthening Europe's position as a global economic power in a rapidly shifting geopolitical landscape. Glad you're listening. Today in Future in Steel we zoom in on the crucial link between breakthrough technology and practical implementation. Because innovation only becomes impactful when it is engineered into reality. Edwin van der C plays a key role in translating new ideas into scalable, reliable solutions, where Energy is an offshore engineering company at the forefront of designing the next generation of offshore instructures with decades of experience and a deep understanding of the challenges at sea. What happens when Composite Joints Technology meets real-world offshore engineering? And what does this mean for the future of jacket design, cost efficiency, and Europe's position in offshore energy? Edwin, on behalf of Maxime, a warm welcome to Future in Steel. Thank you. Nice to be here. It is wonderful to have you. Great.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Super. So um, Edwin, thanks for uh for joining. And um let's say before we start, I I am also uh curious. And okay, you started um as uh how did you start, let's say, your whole career within Offshore? And uh can you can you take us a little bit on the journey that you made until you became director and also founded uh NRC?

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Yeah, sure. I think it was never the plan to end up in offshore energy, so uh here I am. It sort of uh somewhere started with interesting cars. Life is in perplexing that's it. So we have a plan that will always always change, that's what it is. So then it always started with cars, something technical, of course. Did uh mechanical engineering studies, then thought, well, maybe aviation is a good idea to go into that direction, and did on doing uh on the university uh engineering mechanics, uh, and then and that everything has to be very light in in aviation, and then somehow ended up with a company doing offshore where everything has to be thick steel, uh, and and and that's how it went. And then with that, I think uh started at an engineering company at the time, um, and been well growing through well the career there for being engineered multidiscipline, becoming a directorate or project manager at some point, becoming a director at some point, becoming a co-owner, and then in uh what is it, 2015, we 14 we stopped that. Uh we sold that part and then went on to uh founding NRC and then uh wanting to still do we had the year the time to think of what are we going to do next? We can do everything different, and yes, we started engineering again in the offshore energy sector, so uh that's what we're doing.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Okay, and um, so one of the things um you want to distinguish yourself as an engineering company. So, what what is really at the core of the let's say or the DNA of of uh energy?

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Well, what we like to do is uh the offshore energy is really great. I mean, it I must be honest, I started uh the offshore energy career started in oil and gas, uh then later on uh wind was added to it, and now it's yeah, hugely in interesting with everything that's ongoing because a lot of our what is it, energy in the Netherlands or Europe comes from well, we think will come from uh from offshore. So there's a lot of things being done there, and I think that needs to well, if you look at it, there's a lot of solutions, but it needs innovation. And uh we're we're doing next to NRC, we have a company like H2C really focusing on offshore hydrogen. So there's a lot of things that we want to contribute to offshore energy that can be very detailed or it can be really well globally, let's say, in the in the in the energy sector. So looking at solutions, and we like to start with the blank piece of paper, not having anything, just having an idea or a challenge, and work that up towards something that's really being built. Because we can create a lot of documents as engineers, but the in in the end we only want one thing that it's being built, and then we can knock on the I was almost gonna say steel, but on on the on the the fiber. I should say.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Well that that that that means recognition, Maxine, because you do the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Well, I I well well, I I like uh how he uh frames it because it is a bit on okay, um nobody actually and no engineer wants to do work only for paper. We no, I think everyone likes to think about things, design it, that it is reliable, and then actually seeing it being built. Yes. How do you see that that let's say that you with NSC can make that difference as in okay that you don't design something for paper, but really uh how it's but starts often with with also getting the opportunity from a client to do that.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

So so it starts with that relation, let's say, that you have with a client and to say, well, if you allow us to to make you an a concept, yeah, that often is where it where it starts, and then to bring in uh to take the client through that process, because I think that's really important that it's not only us telling the client this is exactly what it is, it's taking that client in the journey along, saying, Is this then the right concept? We have often starts with a a range of concepts, can we narrow it down? And then when we're there, it should be as simple as possible. That's because that's simplicity translates in cost as well, often, and cost is often the driver for the business case in the end. So so that is where let's say we're we're on that path between well, technical solutions, the business case, everything is a feed into that, and that's what we like to be be part of, and then hopefully the client takes us along in their journey so that we can assist them getting it realized. That's actually where we are.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

And then I have a question because what we notice is that um now well let's say for our solution, the client not always knows what he wants. So at least great. The best clients there are, yes. So um how would you then approach it? Because we we we've of course recently talked about it, and you saw me like, oh, let's go, let's go, right? So uh how would you uh say, Okay, uh you say it's the great uh the best client? Why? Why do you say that's the best client?

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Yeah, because then you you can and but the client then needs to allow you to to bring that that concept forward. So then the client needs to trust in you. That if you say, Well, because a client comes to us for a let's say a steel solution, yeah, then we say, but that's also another solution. Now we're doing a similar project at the moment to look at uh that's the fiber reinforced pipeline uh in that uh in that case, but then we're also bringing that forward to say, well, that's also a solution. Let's look at it, let's see what it brings. There are some challenges with it, but let's see how we then resolve it. And then if the client goes along with that, then you can take them a long way. But you need to be always be very open and transparent of what are the upsides and the downsides. But to every downside, there's always a solution, and and that's why we're engineers, because we can often to downsides think of you can resolve things, and that's often where a client starts, they see risks because yeah, they just they are more bound by capex, yeah, and capex is associated with risk, yeah, because and risk just inflates the the capex, and that's why you need to have a discussion about that. It really needs to be helping the client in developing his business case.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

You you you talked about pipelines. Is is that a a possible uh thing you could do with composite reps with pipelines?

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Is that there's a com there's another company in the Netherlands doing that at the moment, as well. Okay, but but it it only it only in in improv what's it uh shows and forces the the business case that you're after as well. I mean, it's it's being done. I mean, let's be honest. It's nothing new but we're doing it.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Yeah, and and and I think they have a similar, let's say, uh, adoption uh period that the that I foresee that we will have, right? Because uh and I think we're talking about uh Strom in this case. Uh the they have been paving the way also to use composites in in pipelines for for several uh well more than a decade, even okay. Um so we see we well uh we also see the similar let's say um challenges that we have because indeed uh all of the uncertainties are let's say dealt with within steel, but in composite structures we are at the forefront, I think. Um so so uh yeah, um I only can can say yeah uh what they faced uh we are currently uh dealing with. But then going back to to let's say offshore structures, because that are pipelines which are medium, so they are pressure or maybe not even pressured. Um but if we are designing uh structures if we do it with composite, what are the constraints that you see?

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Well, constraints are opportunities, I think. It's it's uh mostly is first, I think what what do we try to bring to to the clients in this case, and that's where where I think we see that well offshore wind is really nice, but it's also quite people have the perceptions it's quite costly, and I think that's where you also come in to say, well, what we see is that a lot of structures that we currently need nowadays are really about that they only become larger. And then with making it it larger, I think comes the the opportunity to say how can we then do it differently, so that at least the costs and uh weight uh as I said is is often a measure for cost. So if we if we lower the weight, can we then with that also lower the cost? I think that's the path which we are on at the moment. And then yeah, I think the the restrictions that are there in the in in um in the offshore environment at the moment is that all the solutions, all the small developments have been done, but but structures become larger and larger and more challenging. And and where we, if I now may say that having worked for oil and gas, their lifetime was 15 or 20 years. Nowadays it becomes 30 or 40 years or even 50 years. Yeah, that's really a challenge that we're having. So larger structures and also longer lifetime is really something that we that we need to resolve because we don't want to be putting out structures there that only operate for 20 years, no, because we're talking about sustainable energy at some point, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 10:43

Yeah, so and and and and in your in your view, um you say it's challenging. What makes it challenging uh according to you? Is it um the the the options that you have, or uh is it the constraints of the current, let's say, state-of-art?

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Well, I think what is really challenging, of course, that that in the scale of wind developments that we're thinking of, yeah, we don't have that scale yet. Yes, we have a few gigawatt wind parks, but we're doing more and more, and what you see there is that these parks, the wind parks become larger and larger as well. And if you then look at that, the amount of steel and labor that you then need in order to fabricate that or to construct that and install it, that's I think where really the restrictions sit.

SPEAKER_02 11:27

And um, so you yeah, with NSC, you you are designing structures. We designed the uh let's say within the framework of the let's say RD uh program, multiple structures. Yeah. Um well, what is your uh your view on it? Um so if we design with welds or if we design with something uh differently, how do you how do you look at from it from a designer point of view?

SPEAKER_00 11:56

Yeah, that is interesting because in the beginning I I'm well with my background doing engineering mechanics, having done some quite some uh courses in then uh uh was it fiber reinforced plastics, if I may say that uh as polymers, yeah. Yeah, polymers, sorry, sorry for that word. Uh the wrong word here, yeah. We'll correct that. Uh no worries. So so but that so that's really where the interest is to see how you would how you would uh approach it uh then and how would you then integrate that into uh into a structure. So in the beginning I thought, well, we've done quite some structures and seeing how things bond together also above C or sub C. The offshore environment is quite demanding, if I may say so. But going through these projects together with three composites, yeah, we've really seen that that well, where I was a bit skeptical of how do you do the bonding and all the test programs that you have, it's quite interesting how you've resolved that. And if you look from an engineering perspective, yeah, if we design something in steel, everything has been done before. So there is just uh acceptance criteria for for a steel structure, yeah, that has to be developed. And I think that's what we've done. Well, we've learned a lot from the projects that we've done together, comparing a tree composite, let's say, structure together with a steel structure, and then really noted that there's a significant difference in in how you need to approach it. So, and that's great, because then I think we've we've sort of well seen how what the interaction is between ourselves as engineers and you as a as the designer of the of the notes, let's say, or the supplier of the notes. And I think that's where where well that learning we need to somewhere extend towards the future. But there's still quite some work to be done in order to well, we can accept it, but can now other clients, insurers also accept it, and can we find the right acceptance criteria for this well new new method of of joining uh members together?

SPEAKER_02 13:49

Okay, then then one step back. Do you think that we should push and get the technology in? Do you see the benefits?

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Well, what we've seen on the Rep Note 1 and the Rep Note 2 project, the two projects that we've done together, and where we've done all the analysis of comparing the the steel structures for the same environment and the same wind turbine, uh, which was a I think at one case of 14 megawatt wind turbine and the other one a 20 megawatt work wind turbine with one at 40 meters and the other one at 60 meters. Yeah, we've really seen that it's a a reduction in weight, and as I said, that's reduction in cost. Well, of of thirty to forty percent. So that's that's really significant. Thirty to forty percent. That's really significant in my view. So so yeah, in in to answer to your question, do you see the benefit? Yes, I I really do.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Yeah, and if you talk about lifetime, then then the benefit goes even goes up even more.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

Well, yeah, then you go to the repurposing because circularity, yeah. If you see that in the new wind parks coming up, circularity is really an a a key element nowadays in selecting uh the the technical solution, then what you want with circularity is repurposing. Uh you don't want to well recycling is something different, but repurposing means that you use the the structure as it is as much as possible in its in its same shape or form. Well, that's typically what you could do here. Because yeah, when we're designing our as I said, we were designing for a 30-year lifetime of a wind park or longer. That means if you consider the safety margins on it, you design for a factor of 10, meaning 300 years. Yep. And what you've shown is that it can even be longer than that.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

Yeah. Okay, but because uh I ask it because you you say okay, we have of course to overcome a few challenges, but then there should be a reason to do so, right? So if you if you say okay, wait, the benefits actually are good enough to actually take the next step and and push for it and need uh finished qualification or certification. Absolutely. Yeah. Um that was for me at least important to to to know if uh if if you say okay, yes, we can make lighter structures, and yes, we see that we can make it uh more cost effective. Uh, and we can well, I don't know uh how you look at it. I I still think that we are we didn't explore all of the engineering benefits of the technology. Um because because for for me, and uh we have not discussed this so far, but for us the angle, for example, for welding is limited uh to I think maximum 30 degrees. So we we don't have a maximum angle. And we have never looked into it because we always kept to the same constraints within designs. But if we let that go, then we can even make jackets or different shapes or or um less joints, yes. Right? And less joints means less work, and less work means Yeah, that's further optimization.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

I think it's first now proving that it works and that you can have it done, but then thereafter, I think the the technology allows for more optimization even further.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

May I ask you a question? Um you've been talking about clients, you've been referring to clients a number of times in our podcast, and and rightfully so. If you look from the perspective of the client, what makes them accept this technology or want to use this technology?

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Is that cost only or but it's that that's where a lot of things currently are decided. So if if you look at what what win developers currently are doing, is well, if they want to bid be successfully bidding for uh a wind license uh offshore, then it's it's often it's cost. It's it's uh it's the business case in the end, of course. And that's what they're after. So yes, that's a that's a a prime driver. Uh and then in this case, if I refer to a client, it's often the wind developer making those choices.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

And and am I pressing you too much if I suggest that that business case with the usage of this technology fundamentally changes and becomes better? Or am I putting words in your mouth?

SPEAKER_00 17:49

You do that very well. Yeah, because there's of course other solutions, let's be honest. So but you need to really show that that this this is, I think, quite a uh a changer. Uh in if if you look at it. So you need to bring that forward to these clients and and let the clients also see that it brings them that advantage.

SPEAKER_03 18:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Yeah. And and that that is a and that's a path, I think. We just spoke about uh Stone. Yeah, they've 15 years, I think they're I I think this will be a lot smoother, I hope. But but it is there, it's a conventional industry. Uh, there's and the conservatism comes from that it's a lot of CapEx involved, and it needs to stand there for 30 years, who's going to take the risk. And if the client says I accept the risk, then the insurer also needs to accept that same risk because they they have something to say. So it's quite a list of stakeholders in there, and we need to help those clients to also manage their stakeholders in order to accept it, and that's why you need well, I think typically the the roadmap that you're currently having of was it pilot and demonstrator to to really follow that through because people want to just see that it can be done before they really decide to put 30 or 80 wind turbines on a structure like this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

No, well one of the things that um we even added because we made this indeed this roadmap, um, because we knew from the start that okay, acceptance is the key thing. Yeah. Um because we well, I think we we we believed in the technology from day one, but we actually know that it works uh after all the tests that we've done. But we also added um let's say some let's say things during the way with the clients gave us feedback on right because we developed the technology to actually replace composite joints, so as a note factory or joint factory, such that we would supply the joints to the yard. But then actually the yard says, Well, you know, can't you do it on site? So, okay, that was quite soon. And then we said, Okay, yeah, we could also do that, but that would mean that we would reduce the amount of labor that you have, because then we more or less reduce all of the welds. And uh, but actually that that was the no-no, but we actually want that, right? So then we included, hey, we want to apply it uh on the yard. That's when we started development of the VI joint, and that opened to the guy again new possibilities for actually how to design it, because then you again make it more simple. Um but you at least at least what what resonated with me was that you have to listen to okay, what does it the client uh or we have a multi-layer client because okay, our project developer orders the jacket at a yard, and the yard determines the price, and the price is determined on the amount of labor and the accessories. So when we talk to our project developers, yeah, price is important and uh lifetime uh is important, and um then the yard says, Okay, um, can you also reduce the well or at least the the amount of wellness that we have to have? So then we added a new complexity to our roadmap as in okay, we want to have a scalable and industrialized production method, and that again had to feed back into okay, how do you uh provide that technology then in a reliable manner? But it is just something that uh that I think.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

No, but that's interesting because I think what you're you're you're having this technology, but you can't do that on your own. So you're including other companies, and then and then we design for constructability as well, because we can we can think of the then like architects often like to do the the nicest structures. Sure. Then if it's not if you can't construct it, uh then it looks nice and it is maybe light, but it's very expensive. So constructability together with how we design it, that's very important. And then it's indeed the yards that need to decide that they uh can you then do pre made or prefabricated joints? Yeah, or do they prefer to to do it at site? Yeah, well, there will always be, I think, that combination there.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

No, no, we we indeed we we went I think two six, seven yards, uh I think in Europe and also abroad, and then asked them, okay, well. what is actually the preferred way and some said okay we have prefabricate joints some said okay actually on site that would be awesome and then okay uh because now um we now have a project that uh that that with the supply chain actually of of how to make it uh we're going to introduce industrialize it and we're gonna make it fully uh hands off that we could make full X joints and that would be ready around end of uh 28 right and that is all because our let's say the art says okay we we need to make a lot of X's uh we can do that with welders but then it adds weight and cost and is not that fast if we can make composite joints and even if if it's no hands on then we can really and I think that that's the key thing is that they would like to be competitive to let's say Asian or let's say far east yeah they would be yeah and the only way is that to to do that with reducing uh the amount of labor there.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

Yes yeah and I think if if you then do the prefabricated part and you need to just offset that against the the amount of welding there's still welding the circular welding is still involved but that's potentially simpler than than making the X joints welds.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Yeah for us it's also challenging because then they say yeah but I use so many hours for welding then you do this um and uh and then they overlook actually all the additional benefits right that if if you use less time or if you let we so we really have to as you say take the the let's say the user or the client really by okay no but this is what it means and this is how we're going to work with it.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

So it takes time actually to but it takes time because you you you're currently involving the supply chain mostly which is good because if they accept it they they can also sell it for you to to the to the clients to show that it's an integrated solution actually that you're bringing and then yeah the client sits more on the value chain part but then you need to bring them in into that part as well because then they will recognize it as well I think. Yeah. But that's a path because that you you see that that acceptance well with us uh we've we've started we've been on that journey already quite a long time but that's now what you're doing with the yards as well and and that's how you do that very well step by step by by taking the stakeholders or supply chain companies then in this case.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

And if you look at if you look at the client I'm just curious if you look at the clients who are in the end of the day have to decide we're gonna do this we're gonna apply this where are they at the moment? Are they at the beginning of the acceptance or are they already saying look this is very promising we want to know and we want to think what's I think Maxime knows that better than I am where they are on that on that part.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

But I think they are there's quite some interesting interested clients to look at this and and develop it further otherwise we wouldn't have been sitting here yes discussing this part I'll be honest.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

So I think what we're doing is first we want to build uh let's say uh let's say proof or proof points that uh the technology works but we know that it works but other people can also assess it uh scrutinize it uh qualify it and at the other time uh other side is okay if it works then you need to supply it in volumes that are not small. No that's a challenge it what once you've sold it then you need to supply it yeah isn't it well yeah well that's what we currently see is that okay if we sell it then let's say a single jacket uh is qu already quite uh the volumes yes uh at the same time if a person or if a client wants to buy uh buy one they actually don't want to buy one they want to buy the whole lot which they cannot at the moment because then okay the introduction of or the risk on the capital is still too high but they are not going to order if I cannot show that we can scale right because they don't are not interested in the uh first one they are interested in the 50 so that's why uh also now bringing forward this let's say industrialized uh production method I think it is essential to show that actually we can scale once once let's say the first let's say hurdle of technology challenges so we we're we're jumping over three fences at the same time but I think that the client needs to do that as well and I think well then it's indeed will they order for 50 jackets or do you do it first on the let's say the the substation jacket for instance because then that then the amount of the volume is limited.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

And then and then and and once the first is over the hurdle yeah uh then it's it's it's a lot easier for others to accept it. Yeah no so so our current uh way is that we we have multiple let's say markets so substations with tenet uh offshore jackets with various uh parties we're discussing but also other markets where you have the same technology maybe in a single unit or an entire uh such that we more or less show okay hey these are all the things that we already built and then that would accelerate the uh the scale up to to 50 jackets because I because we're talking about an exposure of uh between six hundred and one billion depending on the amount of uh foundations and that's also by uh so to to what extent so so what's the size of the the price uh so what what is the reduction because the more you can show that reduction or potential reduction in in cost and and and having the right risk percept perception around it as well the more clients will be inclined to follow that exactly um and and and that that and I think that's what we well we we'd like to help because it's also about just transparently communicating well this is what it looks like these are the benefits and and and yes there are risks but then let's see the demonstrate that you want or or do it in a first actual live project would even be better.

SPEAKER_02 27:52

Yeah yeah and now and now of course we're also looking at uh hey it it can be applied in many let's say uh markets also within offshore wind also with uh with with monopoles and other other types of uh of uh of structures and that's also where um where I think okay yeah the the the collaboration can be expanded because there are so many structures that you currently are let's say designing yeah and maybe it's just okay I I just want to be in every one of it yeah but maybe that's a I can understand I often have the same thing but there's so much so much you can do on a Friday I know I know I know it's it's it's just uh that's why I wanted to make it like okay yeah I I know we are not there but I ambition is good so don't worry that's uh that's a that's that's a point yeah if we if we if we if we look uh five to ten years ahead where are we uh in this respect uh Edwin well I would really hope that that that that people then have accepted this and that that it's a common technology that can be used in uh in designing structures and I think and and well with that I hope that we can be a part of of that success as well uh with having learned quite a lot now and yeah that needs to be expanded and and we're talking about the world market aren't we I think we are yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah for sure if you look well we don't need to discuss the current status of the political arena and the energy and the energy world but uh yeah at least see that there's quite some a lot of solution lies in renewable energy exactly energy independency that's that's a topic that's a topic and I think for Europe well that mostly sits in wind and the only real place that we can do that is offshore so I think that's really a large market there in potential.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Yeah and um well having traveled to other places in the world for the same wind topic I see that there's a there's quite some opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

And and we're well underway with regard to applying this uh this new technology.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Yes for sure yeah wind is taking well it has a bit of a pause at the moment but that will that will certainly uh that will cause and and well no it will it will go will go and grow yeah I think towards the future and that's exactly where this that's that where where this that's a good market for applying this yeah yeah still want to because we have time uh I still want to ask actually um so you've seen it uh partly from a distance but at a certain point you got the feeling hey uh this is no longer a nice idea this actually works what was the point in in the last few years that you that you thought well it's it's a combination of what what you showed because I've been to your your um what can I say the factory let's see and and and seeing the joints then in real life having seen the analysis and then really showing that what what the benefit is and it it's it's it's a lot more than 10% like I mentioned the the 30 to 40 percent so that's and then and then showing more and more interest in seeing what other tests you're doing and the way like we recently had the the the day that you really went on detail and also the bonding between the the the the polymers and and the steel and and the amount of work that you've done there it's it's yeah getting more and more enthusiastic by by all the results that have been showing if there's is that really a point well it's it's like well you it's on a journey okay that of course starting with an interest for this topic and then getting in drawn into it more and more so that that's I think where I'm where I am together with quite some colleagues within NRC as well that see that the same way yeah then then another question arises sorry now now we're getting somewhere now we're getting somewhere so um you've seen where we are you've seen a little bit of our plans what what are you missing are there things that we should be doing or did you think hey this is uh no missing not I think it's it's more that that would we be able I think that one of the key things is could we put something in the water you have now that very nice jacket standing uh yeah in the yard it stands in the hole you've been testing it strength testing uh it is all very good but let's now put it somewhere in the water as I think that's what really clients want to see that and it would be nice if it's standing I I would like it if it stands there there's one platform that you can see here from Scheveningen from the coast would it not be nice if a if a similar jacket stands there with a wind turbine on it and and we put it in the water there I we need to convince a bit of the province here and uh okay maybe that we're we record this in The Hague so that's really okay happy to hear because if there are because this of course is uh is what we also want um but then uh yes and we we can work with it and and maybe it starts at something smaller first uh so yes that that's that's a sort of a I think uh uh what's it the first dream uh there's a lot your dream is putting all the wind turbines on these jackets with the three composite notes I see that and but then it starts with the small this the steps and and is it that that one jacket with yeah with at the here at Scheveningen or would there be something in in in front of it then that's what we sometimes have to maybe discuss between ambition and and what steps are towards that ambition what should we do so that's I think we as a company we we took we uh put on the kleindampus uh or the the the boots of the giant right yeah we want to take really uh major steps and sometimes we have to accept okay an intermediate step is necessary um because we we are that that's where I see okay we want to go as fast what why because if we take minor steps we because for me it is like okay there's a need to do now right we need to act now if we take this engineering approach which is very Western we are just slow to innovate where while the technology works.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

Yes. Right so uh this is where I I think our role is okay let's go and look look at look at where we want to go and not hey okay next step is proving this point. If you prove that one then it's the next point. But we have to look at okay when do we want to have it actually ready? Yeah and I think it's yesterday right yeah and not not in five years from now we want to have it now so that's why I'm pushing for making these giant leaps um but I also see that okay uh there I see a role of of of our government or the European Commission to to ava to at least provide the funds for the risk that we are uh let's say asking the industry to take which they cannot right so and that's why we bring in the subsidies that's why we want to have the guarantees of okay if there's something happening then it should be able to be repaired. Exactly. But that's where I see okay we we are currently if we take the engineering approach then a small platform would be the next step but we want to have the technology ready actually for the next tenders and not yeah exactly no no you want to you want to be quicker and that that's where then and then you come into let's say I think you're very close of having that ready yeah but then it's it's all about so then the technology is not the issue anymore.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

No it's the acceptance by by the clients by the insurers by their stakeholders their investors that's I think where really a lot of work is and and that's I think the next you are now working very close together with the supply chain but then that whole value chain that sits behind that that client which is just one name but behind them there's a lot of other stakeholders that that need to have that same perception and that's where you really they need to show what it looks like and then so let's start to build something put it in the water so that they really can see what it is like and I know that there's a challenge but but yeah we we we we happily work with that to see where that opportunity sits. But if there are no challenges we're not happy well that's it engineering is all about challenges so that that's what we're uh that's what we're here for isn't it wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

Yeah Edwin I want to thank you very very much you're welcome contributing to Future in Steel and we know this is a future in steel and um you know there may maybe in your mind big steps uh in on on um in in reality maybe smaller steps but the point is the direction is clear I guess yeah this is this is the way forward and it's a logical step as well. Yeah and and yeah I hope there is a client that says immediately I want 50 of these that would be great yeah if we can get that far then I'll work on your ambition as well I think realistically no we we we will first make uh uh let's say a few yes uh right because that that that is that in in in in Europe it this will not happen then we have then we have to go to to other where where speed is more important than quality right so okay yeah thank you very much thank you guys you're welcome very nice you have been listening to Future in Steel a glimpse into Europe's industrial future with thanks to Edwin van Drunen and Maxime Seger if you want to know how your company can benefit from the composite revolution or if you're interested in investing and becoming part of this development don't hesitate to contact 3 Composites they'll be happy to assist you and for now my name is Koos Voltjus and see you in the next Future in Steel You have been listening to the Future in Steel a podcast series about the Composite Revolution brought to you by Tree Composites winner of the 2025 Chamber of Commerce Innovation Award. If you haven't already please subscribe to this series on your favorite podcast platform or visit the Tree Composite website for additional resources. Thank you again for listening and we look forward to bringing you more insight in the future in Steel