Behind The Buckles Episode 8 w/ Tex Sutfin

Behind the Buckles is back this week, and we’re sitting down with Tex Sutfin. Tex is a horseshoer who’s also spent time in the rodeo world, so he’s seen things from both sides of the arena.
We get into what it’s really like working on horses day in and day out, the kind of effort that goes into keeping them performing, and some stories from his time around rodeo. It’s a laid-back conversation about the lifestyle, the work, and everything in between.
If you’re into horses, rodeo, or just want to hear a good, real conversation, this one’s worth a listen.

Transcript

0:01

Here's coffee. Really? Fucking good. Hello and welcome back to Behind the Buckles. We have one of my guests that I'm most excited about, Mr. Tech Sutfin, and his wife, Abby, obviously is the other host. Our other host, Megan, is on a trip in Italy right now. So we're going to be missing her for the next, probably this episode and one more. Um, but we're kind of what we're gonna say. I was gonna say she's not gonna be missing us. But it's fine. So we're gonna do kind of a deep dive in on horseshoeing and Texas life, and I think it's gonna be pretty funny. And you know, we're gonna learn a lot too. So here we go. He's a little nervous, so I'm excited. So I'm gonna let Abby start off start us off. Uh, because she's you know knows text from way back, and then we'll dive into it. Yeah, so why don't you just go ahead and give us a little bit of your history? I I was thinking like back history, rodeo, why you started to shoe. I know the answer, but why you started to shoe and maybe who's taught you in the beginning. So you want me to be like on uh the kid on that one movie start when I was born? Yeah, please. Yeah, it was 1981. Yeah, so no. Uh oh, I don't know. We grew up around, we were junior rodeo and doing things. Mom and dad had some cows, my grandpa had some cows in Lakeview, and uh yeah, somewhere along the line, uh my dad always shot our horses, and he was kind of like self-taught, learned from a friend of theirs and stuff. So I always liked it and watched him do it, and uh then somewhere around the long time I was 12 or 13 years old, I wanted to go somewhere to rope and do something, and my horse didn't have shoes, so I tried to figure it out. And he left to go do something, and so I shot the horse while he was gone. And he came home and he's like, Hey, you can't be doing that. He said, If you do it wrong, they'll be crippled, and all sorts of weird stuff that blew my mind at that time. I was like, Shit, their feet just grow back, who cares? And then he looked at it and he goes, I think he looked at it and thought, Hey, I think he just did better than I did. So because so I kind of became the horseshoe at that point, and um, and then oh, that was when I was young, and so we just uh I kind of just picked it up and I was pretty self-taught, just watched and learned, had the old Western horseman horseshoeing book, read it, learned something. Every time I thought of something, I'd read where that was at in the book and just went and did it. And then our neighbor was a really good racehorse uh shoer. He shot he owned racehorses and then shod races horses in Portland, Oregon. And um anyway, and so I would go over and watch him and picked up some things from him, and then just yeah, went through high school and kind of shod my own horses the whole time, and then got to college and um in college it could become a necessity more than anything. And as uh I I figured out uh certain girls thought I was cute if I could shoe horses then I could make a little bit of a living. So yeah, it was a lot cheaper. So yeah, yeah, I I don't know. That's about it, really. It just kind of I don't I don't know that I ever wanted to be a horseshoe or just kind of came to me, and uh and I do remember one time in college, I was I mean, I did everything. Uh I mean I poured con paved paved roads when I was in like high school, worked for construction, uh pouring concrete when I was in high school, then after high school did construction more, paved roads again, poured more concrete, drilled wells at one point for a year or two. I mean, I did everything. Worked on a ranch, went to California, worked on a ranch for almost a year. But the whole time I was shooing horses like after work or you know on weekends or whatever. And this is when I'm I mean, I'm 17, 18, 19 years old doing these things, making money, and um, and I mean, really was just self-taught. I mean, just uh I and but every time I every time I seen anybody shoe on a horse, like watched Charlie Crawford shoe one at a roadie one time, just watched him pick up certain things, uh little things like that. Every time I got a chance to like and I'm very self-taught, like that way I could learn and pick certain things up and learn from I think you can always learn from anything from anybody, but uh all the jobs I'd had up to that point, also like construction, stuff like that, I understood um I understood how to work, how to make things work for themselves and stuff like that. And um then once I I went to college and I was working on an animal science degree and mostly in nutrition, and we kind of started to finish up college there, and I was shooing horses all day every day, and um yeah, I kind of looked at the deal and I was uh pretty simple-minded, but I was doing math, and I said, Well, if I shoe this many horses and I can make this much money, like that's way more money than these guys are making. And pretty much I looked at it and thought, the harder I want to work is the more money I want to make. I mean, if the sun's out, I can be making money, and I mean, and like, and I was looking at guys that I grew up with and guys that I worked for, and like stuff like that, and I was like, man, I could go work for three hours and make more money than those guys make all day, but then if I work for six hours or if I work for nine hours or I work for 12 hours, holy cow, all of a sudden I'm making a lot of money, and and uh and I didn't do it. Like, I think some guys start shooting horses because they think, well, I can shoe one for beer money today, and then another one for uh lunch money and pay some bills, and that's it, and they'll go shoot two or three head and um think they get way ahead in the world. And I uh I went another direction, I feel like. I and a lot of people have said I'm full of shit when I say I've shot 20, 25, 30 head. I I think my record I shot 32 head one day by myself and trimmed 17 in one day, and I'm uh I'm pretty sure I can make a phone call and uh have that uh backed up. Could you walk the next day? I could walk. I was uh yeah, I could walk and I could stand on my wall and be a little taller, and I was happy about it because I was a broke sun bitch the day that started. And so, and and that was one thing when I was young in rodeo and I was 20, 21 years old, roping calves and had the worst horse trailer, horse rig ever. I mean, I I literally went to rodeos one year. I think a kid named Ryan Kimball traveled with me, and uh, we went to the amateurs, and then I was going to the pro rodeos too. And we went to all of them. I mean, we went to probably at that time you could go to I don't know, it was like between the ICAs, the MPRA's, the IMPRA or uh uh Pro West and the Circuit Road, you could go to like 17 rodeos in a weekend, and I went to every one of them in rope calves. And um, I had uh my dad's old C and B trailer, I think it's an 85 CMB trailer, has more rust on it than it has white paint. And uh we call it the boomer, and we have for 20 years. And I had that, and then I I had uh I think it was a 98 uh Dodge pickup, but all my friend in college who remember had silver bolt on the side of it, and I blew the clutch out at some point, somewhere around during Jordan Valley, and I never had enough money to fix it. Well, I hadn't maybe the money, but probably not the money or the time to get fixed. And so I rodeoed without a clutch, like I mean, all over the fourth of July. You pull up the stop sign, I would literally have to you pull up the stop sign, you put it in neutral, shake it out, you'd shut the pickup off, you'd put it in first or second gear, whatever I can't remember what one started, and then you just start it, and it would let you start it, but it would start in gear, and you'd just and across the stop sign, you'd go. And you I did that for probably a solid month, and uh through Portland, through St. Paul. Yeah, I did that everywhere, and uh it was yeah, and so I I can't remember where I was uh going with that, but yeah, it was uh I learned that you could shoo, and I I guess I where I was going with that was you'd I'd go rodeo all week however many, and I mean I had very little money, and if I did good, it was great. But I had horses lined up Monday and Tuesday morning, and I would I mean Abby can contest and we started hanging out again. Like I mean, one time I drove all night to I mean I could have been yeah, I could have been a cool guy and just hung out and stayed with my girlfriend, but instead I drove all night long, like 600 miles to get back to shoe horses for a client the next morning because I wasn't gonna no-show anybody and uh showed up, made my few hundred bucks, whatever it was, and went on with my week. So I will uh there's a couple things I want to touch on with that. Uh, first of all, about working on getting his animal science degree. Um he did go to class. I feel like maybe we were more getting like our rodeo degree, but that's fine. And I also feel like yes, he is very good about making money too now, but let's be real, like you were making money to rodeo. Well, yeah. So like maybe came over here so that we could rodeo. Yeah. Uh but that was one thing I will definitely say. I I have two different stories about that, but that Tex has always had a lot of heart, and yes, he he shod a ridiculous amount of horses. And yeah, he could stand. I Sonny Hansen embarrassed the heck out of me one day. We were he was talking about how strong Tex was for how skinny he is, and I was like, Yeah, he's got like a 24 waist and a 40-inch inseam. And Sonny's like, How do you know? Anyway, uh the one funny thing I was gonna say about when John Grownie knocked on the the bloomer. Like Tex had literally shot Budgie Shu like 20 head the night before he had to drive all night to see Paul. That was Cody Ole. Oh and yeah, and he woke. I so what I did back, I had the bloomer, and a lot of people have seen this and can contest to it, but uh I had Blondie, my good yellow horse, RMP, best horse ever. Anyway, and uh R I P, I guess. I'm like, well, I rolled that together. Anyway, and so she I had her in the trailer and I'd load as much hay as I could get in the front of the bloomer, and I'd put her in. Okay, I gotta because I don't think you guys explained it very good. I have to the bloomer is a bumper pull trailer, and it's and so when he says load up as much hay as you could, he maybe could fit four bales and then blondes. There might have been six or seven, but yeah, and I just want to debate the mixture a little bit there with the little blondie had to find her way in there, but she had hay in front of her to eat the whole way, so she was happy. But then I'd get like so I shot horses all that day. I was in San Jalo at a place that day. And I remember, and they kept and there was rodeo guys coming through, and they're like, Hey, we and so they just kept and yeah, I mean, I'm I think I was getting 65-70 bucks a head then. And I wasn't gonna say no to it because I had a whole week to go rodeo, and uh, and so they kept pulling them in there, and pretty soon I'm like, God damn, I gotta go rope in Malala tomorrow morning. And it's getting to be, I mean, it's you know, the 2nd of July or whatever, and it's almost dark outside, and I've been shooing since daylight. And but the money keeps coming in, so finally I shoe the last one. I grab my horse and load, and I go and I drive all night. I get there, I think probably four or five o'clock in the morning. I and what I would do was I'd unload the horse, and then I would throw the bales of hay on the floor of the trailer, and then I'd roll my bedroll on top of the bales of hay, and that's where I'd sleep. And then I'd been there and I, yeah, I was a real big timer. Like I pulled right in, like, I'm like literally right between Fred Whitfield and Cody Ole. I'm just like, yeah, I'm stud. And Cody looks in the trailer next morning, and he's like, Jesus Christ, well, that's what I had. And so and I I was happy as a clam to have it, and I had a and I was always uh I always unloaded a good horse. Like I and I I never had a good rig until just a few years back, and uh, but I did unload uh I mean I had numerous nice horses at that point, and um that one was a special one for sure, and um yeah, I always had something I could win on, and so that was good. I I learned a long time ago that it doesn't matter what you pull into the rodeo and it matters what you pull out of the trailer. And my favorite rig is my mom's three-horse logan, and it was Ringo's 01. Yeah, my bad dodge. And I'm like, I felt like a real cowgirl in the game. I pulled Flash out of the trailer, so I felt like I was doing okay. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Texas' favorite thing was to tell Rainey and I, mainly me to tell Rainey that it really wouldn't hurt the two of us to roadie a little bit out of a stock trailer. And I did uh back in the day. I was like, Tex, this sometimes you gotta go back to your roots and that's what it's like. So yeah, it's uh but yeah, no, I it's uh I guess I started shooing out of a necessity and something I could do to make money and survive, and then somewhere along the line it rolled into something. If I work harder at this and get better and learn and use my brain, I can be very good at it and make a very good living at it. And um and I guess back to that deal I was saying, some guys only want to shoot two or three, and that's great, but I didn't become a horseshoe just to survive. I mean, I I guess to survive, but I also wanted to make some money and like make something of myself and um and make investments and things like that. And and I never wanted to leave money on the table, that's that's for sure. I mean, like uh I learned from some good businessmen throughout my life, and um and those guys aren't lazy, and it doesn't matter what you're doing. And I'm not saying guy that shoes only two or three heads lazy, it's just man, the people out here begging to give horseshoeers money, and so many guys I know won't even answer their phones or do anything. And and it's one like I can't take any more clients right now. I always I'll entertain anybody's phone call or think about it and see what I can do, and if it works into my circle, yeah, we'll we'll make it happen. But um, there's so many people I know just like, oh, I don't want to talk to them, or they they they ghost people, which uh everybody knows that knows me. I feel like is I hate ghosting more than anything. Like you want to hit butt it, ghost me. So um, yeah, and stuff like that. But it's um, yeah, there's guys I know make great living shoeing, and uh yeah, and and it's not hard. Answer your phone. So you didn't really have a shoeing mentor originally, like you said, kind of self-taught and things like that. What's I mean, mentoring, but when guys come to help you shoe, is that also something you teach them? Like this can be a way to make a good living, you know what I mean? Like, that's a part of the mentoring, I guess, that goes into it now, not only the teaching of the of the feet. 100%. Like, I'm I think uh the teaching of the feet and the handling the tools, like I got a good guy that helps me right now, and and it is, and I've had man, I like actually we were talking about it today. How many guys I've had that have I've I've bet I've had 10 or 12 guys help me in the last 20 some years that are all full-time shoers now that have good business. There's probably another 10 that yeah, they don't shoe anymore, yeah. They're terrible, yeah. Yeah, anyway, they they they just like some people just aren't shoreshoers. You one you gotta be a little bit tough and a little bit dumb and uh dumb tough, I would say that because it it hurts, it doesn't feel good. There's things that and and and it's not easy, but you gotta figure out a way to get by and do it, and and your body will adjust to it. But yes, uh 100% like uh what's the kid that's helped me right now, Clancy. Great, great guy, works hard every single day. But like the other day we I've been watching Tulsa time, so I think uh like I'm basically a gangster and I'm I'm stallone. But I told him the other day, like the kid that dries for him, what's the kid's name that dries for him? Oh Adam. Oh, I don't know. That's not Adam, he's he's not white. Now we're just around racism. Adam's no, it's not racist. This part really matters to the story. But no, I told him I'm like, yeah, it's like that. Like, yeah, when we're driving around, we're talking business, you know, talking, you know, like today we talked about uh credit cards and stuff like that, and how to use them correctly, and like, or you know, and there's ways not to use them. You won't be a cash only guy, and we talk about shit like that all day long, every day. I would totally go with cash only, yeah. Uh well until you yeah, but uh the um but yeah, it's it's not all about shoeing, it's a huge business to run, maintain like my time, like like managing my time, like knowing how to like, especially like say in this valley, like I might be in Melba, like today we were. We started at Melba at 9 o'clock this morning, 9 30, something, and we worked our way back and we ended up backside of Caldwell, came back, came and worked our way back through Wilder and made a little circle our whole way back. We do that pretty much every single day, and trying to navigate the amount of miles we drive and an amount of horses we shoe to be back home at a certain time is kind of a little bit. I mean, that's there's probably more thought that goes into that than there is actually shooting the horses. So, because it's not easy. I mean, like when you try to figure out how to shoot 20 different horses at five different places in a day and try to get it to where it's not midnight by the time you're done, it it takes some uh strategy. How long did it take you uh doing this to be able to tell your clients or get enough on a schedule that, hey, this is what's going on, you know, this is how it has to be done because you do have to you, you know, you want to be home to have dinner with your family and things like that. And then like there's still a like a lot more sporadic stuff too, you know, feed that people need done. So how do you manage your time and kind of keep that lined out? Well, just I think now I I guess the snaffle bits off the clients. I got I got a bit in my mouth for the most part, like it's uh some of them got except for rainy, some of them got tie downs on. Rainy still must hang run wild. Yeah, but uh no, but it is like I mean they will try to like clients are great, but uh I guess one thing, yeah, we'll get on this tangent, and it'll be crazy, but uh it they'll try to pull like clients, like everybody thinks they need it right this second. And sometimes like I try to tell like Clancy, like, hey, yeah, give them a second to like let them know, like, hey, I'll I I can work it in on say, say they text you. We're gonna go over this too in a minute, but say they text you on a Monday morning and you say, Hey, I can't get there today, but I I can give you these options. I can come Wednesday afternoon, you can bring it to me Tuesday night, something like that. Give them a couple options, make it work for both of you, and and make that happen. You know, like it's um and some people's are driver straight, like we had we were driving home this afternoon, and one of our good clients sent me a picture, and I don't know why, but this horse had literally I wish I had a picture of it, and uh, but it literally had kind of worn the toe of the hind shoes off. And we just shot it like four weeks ago. It was a new horse they just got, wore the toe off, and the shoe had literally slid off and then like went was wrapped around the outside of both front feet and or hind feet and were just like hanging. And she's like, Oh my god, what do I do here? And it's like I'll be there in an hour. And so I kind of drove out of my way, got there, and yeah, that was a big deal. Like, we had like not a big deal, but like something like that you gotta like work into your system. But sometimes uh yeah, but the other thing is we can't get everywhere every single day. So it's like just and sometimes you can like back to your point, like we can get uh where are we going off the like the we can get back, like I mean, like you can somehow say this. It's not that big of a deal sometimes. Like sometimes it is, most of the time it isn't. Like sometimes just get the shoe off, put something on them, like duct tape their foot if you have to, like, make sure they don't die overnight and we'll figure it out. But don't don't ruin your shoeer's life over a very small thing. So the other thing that always is shocking to me is is maybe I just in like don't have the money or is like are more like conservative, but I mean the fact that people want to shoe their horses so often, and even if Texas, like you know, they don't actually need it, or why don't we wait to this? No, no, we gotta do it. And I mean it isn't like I'd rather wait. Yeah, I mean, I people ask me, like, well, how long did you run your horse like before they were shot? And I'm like, I don't think you probably need to know that answer. My horses are resilient, yeah. They're not that far. Okay, so just even though we have a lot more to talk about, I want to know kind of like I don't know how to say this, maybe the craziest client you've ever dealt with. Can I that wasn't me, I guess. Or horse, or a horse. Have you like been, you know? I don't know. Like uh yeah, like honest to God, it's kind of like I try to forget as soon as I get in the pickup a lot of this stuff. And like there's a lot of things like in the heat of the moment, it's like a big deal in the shoeing world. And I think that's where some of the shoeers like explode and lose their. I mean, I everybody has seen me lose my temper a time or two, I'll guarantee it. And uh very few of you probably haven't. And um, and and I'm okay with it because if I if I've lost my temper in front of you, well, you probably should fix something. It's you, not me. I I get to tell the Brian story. Yeah, that's what's a good thing. Back to the rodeoing. I it must have been the week of like Elgin or no, it doesn't matter. It it was one of the like weeks where. We were going the pro rodeos and the amateur rodeos, and there's two parts of this story. The first part is Tex had drawn this calf twice and it had a nub for a front leg. And he so he drew this calf, can't get it tied. Got got flagged out. That's not it. You tell the calf robing part, and I'm gonna tell the Brian part. And then I roped the calf at Pineville, and this calf was like kind of notorious for just he was just uh pretty weak. Anyway, and so I drew him in uh I think it was the second round at Pineville, and then I drew him there and I turned him around and just went down there and tied him. I was good on him fast time, and um anyhow I go to Silverdale, which was a few days later, which Silverdale is in the same arena as Bremerton, but it's an amateur, and at that time it am added like 1500 or 2000. Like it was a hell of an amateur back in the day. Yeah, yeah. And so we drove. I mean, Silver Bremerton, Silverdale area is a that's a jaunt, you know, to drive. So we drove up there and I draw this calf again, and I knew him, and um, and I and I ride my good mare, and like he was so dead that I took my I put a snaffle bit on my mare and took the tie-down off of her, and just I mean, she's gonna work regardless, but I needed her to just let me rope him and stand there anyway. So I knocked me a start, rope him, turn him around, run down there. I mean, this calf never, I mean, he was like literally almost, I don't know if he was even high loping. And I rope him, turn him around right there at the front of the box, go down there, he puts his head right in my lap, I flank, put a wrap and a hooy on him. I'm some I'm long seven, short eight. And I tied him so fast and did everything. By the time the judge had got over there, he's screaming from the buck and chutes, buck and shoots are on the left side over there, Bremerton. And by the time he gets to me, I already throw my hands in the air. And he's an amateur judge, has a looks like a rein and drainer, has his hat tied up anyway. And so he yells at me to get him up. Well, clearly I've already thrown my hands in the air, and so and I'm broke, like, and this is like a $2,000 paying rodeo. The guy I'm long seven, short eight on this calf. The guy that won't a good friend of mine was like 9-8, 9-6, wins the rodeo. He flags me out because he said I didn't daylight this calf, which the calf never left his feet. Anyway, so I may or may not have done something in the arena that I shouldn't have. I didn't get a go to. Anyway, so I got did you rip the judge off his horse? I did something anyway. So I got a little excited. But nug was a totally different story. Yeah, that's a different calf, different story. Anyway, and then anyway, so um now I'm broker, fined, kicked out of the Imperial, kinda. So anyway, and so then I drive to Knowles's and Brian's like, I'm talking to him, and Abby and I are kind of just I don't think we're married yet, are we? No, yeah, and I uh anyway, Abby's gonna meet me at Knowles's, and Brian's got like 25 head as usual for me to shoe, and I show up there and uh the next day and I start shoeing, and yeah. It's 8,000 degrees. It's August type. And there really is 25 head, and they have a lot of very, very nice horses, like super great horses. Lots of them hadn't been ridden or used at this point because we were just getting into the time. So we and they're all big, like huge. And we're like sitting there and trying to kind of visit, and Tex is already mad, and Brian's kind of like poking the bear about what just happened. Now are you gonna go to the Empire Rodeos anymore? Like, like now you can't go to the Empire Rodeos. So Tex is already a little snapped off, and everything's kind of pulling back and pulling on him, and and by this point, like Tex goes to get a drink of water, and Brian has drank his entire thing while sitting on the bell, and I'm watching this, and then we get like three-quarters of way through the day, and Texas really needs something to eat, and he goes to get into his lunch. Well, now Brian's just sat on the hay bell and ate Texas sandwich and all of his lunch, also. So yeah, Tex finally does snap, and and he he he had a straight-up come apart. And Brian is literally like shaking, and he's like, Tex, Tex, it's okay, it's okay. Yeah, those were that was back in his younger days. That was back in his younger days. He doesn't he doesn't quite snap off like that. I I I tucked Brian's chair, it was like one of those folding chairs they get at Walmart. I folded it together and turned it into an axe. Yeah, and I I tried to chop the barn down with it, but yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, good times. So yeah. Uh but actually the way that Tex and I officially got together, it was after college. It was the third or fourth time. I mean, in my mind, it was the official, but uh I had a crippled outside horse that I really needed to sell, you know, because I was rich too, and I could not get this horse sound enough to sell. And so I called Tex and I'm like, I need you to shoe this horse. I was living in Joseph. And at that time, Elgin had a bull riding barrel racing the night before. And so Tex and Sonny were running bulls out. So I hauled my crippled outside horse over there, and Tex like works his magic, and for some reason, when he's just like bent down there, filling it full of whatever he had to pack in this horse's foot. I was like, you know, those I think those are probably like size like 32 waists now. He's getting kind of cute. So wow. And then it was true love. And then it was true love. Um speaking of speaking of you working your magic, talk about uh horseshoe's relationship with a vet. I think it's huge, like in my opinion. Like uh I love it, and they can see things we can't see. And I this one thing I well definitely I don't know the terminology, but like I 100% believe in like um yeah, have most horse or vets shot a horse? Absolutely not, and most of them can't even pull a shoe off. But I'm okay with that. That's my job. Your job is to look at the x-ray, look at what you do, diagnose it, and you give me a prescription, let me know how to shoe it, and I will shoe it however you want me to shoe it. And I and I am huge on that. Well, and also people think getting x-rays, like you're like, oh, I'm not trying to make you mad, but I x-ray my horses' front feet, and they don't realize that if everybody x-rayed their horse's front feet, they would be ahead. I mean, there's people, some of the biggest horse trainers and um stuff in the world, they x-ray them all the time. I mean, they'll they'll x-ray them right after a shoeing, which I will say that like don't x-ray them the day before I'm supposed to shoe them. Like, clearly, what's gonna happen? I got the vet said back his toe up. Well, no shit. Like, he's grown for the last six or seven weeks. Where'd he grow? He grew forward. Yeah, so and go take him in the day after and call my ass out. I mean, like 100%. Like, like call your shoe out. Like, I mean, it's okay. And if they can't handle that, and they can't handle a vet prescribing something and saying, hey, uh, we think we need to bring it back a quarter inch, we need to drop the heel here, we need to put this type of shoe on. That's okay. I mean, it's nobody's saying you did a bad job. They're just saying, hey, we looked at it, we x-rayed it, we got this, and this we think this will be better. Well, but then that's also back to my point. Like, some there's some things you do not know without at film. 100%. So you pick everybody because look at that foot and be like, yeah, the angles look great, everything, it looks level, but then you get a film and then you're like, hey, we actually need to do this. I have a very like luckily like uh natural way I can look at a foot and read a foot. And I learned from a guy that taught me how to map a foot correctly, and and I can see it. I can look at a horse's foot, I can look at his body, I can pick his foot up, and I can shoe, I'm going to shoe the horse, and I'm gonna shoe the foot as it stands and keep the foot under the horse. I'm not gonna shoe him the way I just think it's like magically gonna work, and so I'm gonna do all this, but then if for some reason the vet says, hey, we could do a little more, okay, let's do a little more. Sometimes what I think I'm being, I'm being aggressive, and then sometimes I would love an extra eight to say, hey, you could be a little more aggressive. You got another eighth of an inch or another quarter inch that can come back or another quarter inch of dropped heel. Do something like that, and that's okay. Like, I'm not gonna cry about that or think that I'm not gonna sit there like if one of the vets at I Idle Equine called me and say, Hey, we need you to do this. Okay, sounds good. Let's do it. And um, and I have, I mean, I I've maybe I've maybe said something back, like I've got a prescription back that said to like put a leather pad on something with this type of material under it because we got a bruised coffin bone or something like that. And and I've said back, hey, I like this pad system better, let's do it this way. But we're still doing the same thing. We're and and I just know I guess like in that prescription type of deal, like I've shot thousands of them, and I understand what works better for me the way I shoe them. And the vet's just saying, hey, let's just cover this deal up and help them out. And I I know the way I shoe, I can cover it up and help it out better this way. But most vets are then good with the collaboration back. That's what I yeah. They're like, okay, yeah, if you think that's better, then do it that way. And and sometimes I've had vets say, hey, let's let's pad them, do this because of this. And and I I look at the x-ray and I say, Hey, I think I can if you let me, if I can back this up another, you know, quarter inch or three-eighths of an inch, I put a little more sole relief under that shoe. We don't need a pad, we just need to get more cupping right there from where the the shoe's not touching the sole and back it up, and I'll cover that coffin bone up with the shoe and help them out. And we do that, and boom, they're happy. And and and and it's all about balance anyway. You like in um, in my opinion, keeping them full on the back, balance, get that toe back, do do there's little certain things we do, so yeah. That that kind of uh has two parts that I want to talk about with that, but I think sometimes maybe not sponsor all, yeah, Chrome clip. Uh not all disciplines, but I know sometimes as barrel racers, not always, like sometimes we're really a thousand percent on board with our shoeer. Sometimes we'll spend all the money on all these other things and be like, oh, this guy's cheaper though, or this. I feel like a performance horse shoeer, especially in a sport that is like ours, where it comes down to the hundredth, is like using a performance horse bet. There's two, those are two different avenues. For sure. There's a lot of great bet outs bets out there that are not performance horse bets. There's a lot of shoers out there that will get the job done that are not performance horse shoers. So just what you were saying. I mean, you can do things. You had a clip the other day about some ideas about for in the arena for more traction. Oh, yeah. And and you also know about things maybe if we need like the way that the horse travels, yeah. You know, these are these are important things. Well, a hundred percent. And so here's one thing like like to hit on that is like, yeah, I'm not in a gold buckleware or anything like that, but I've rode horses, I've competed, I've ran calves, I've been on a horse my whole life. I can feel certain things on a horse. I understand what it's like to have one stop, I understand what it feels like to have one trip. You know, I feel I understand what it feels like not to have one have traction when they need it. I understand these things from being on the deal. And so there are guys out there that shoe horses that have never felt these things, but then say, oh, let's do this. Like I like, like I'm big on putting traction on the hind end of a barrel horse. And um people, some people will say, Oh, it hurts their hawks. Well, I've never had a vet yet tell me that it hurts their hawks. I have never heard that from a vet. I've heard it from, yeah, some chiropractors will throw it out there, you know, and um, but it's really you're you're really not doing anything by doing that. We're not asking to do certain things, but I'll tell you from riding them, if I'm gonna go ride one and I'm gonna go ride down a like you know, through a really plowed field or something like that. I'm gonna want as much track as you want to. I do not I do not want a slider on a barrel horse, nor do I want a slider when I'm gonna go gather cows or something like that. I want some traction back there to where they can help themselves. And the other thing, like confidence, like Gene Ovenick did a study on them a few years back, and I don't know everything about the study. I read it, this was a long time ago. I think he even had some videos of some cats, he did have some videos of some calf horses, and it was a big deal. Like uh he showed that barrel horses and fraternity year, and I think he studied like a thousand horses. They fraternity horses, why why the all this what like what who owns the world records? Mostly fraternity horses, correct? Like they hang themselves out there. They run their asses off at the beginning there. There they do it, and it's because they don't know they can fall down, they don't know that it can hurt when they turn that barrel because they think in their world they have all the traction, they don't know that this exists, that they can fall down. So they run their ass up, and then all of a sudden they start slipping here and there, and they start losing confidence. And then so now horses aren't stupid. It hurt, it slid a little bit that they don't want to die, so they're gonna run in there, they're gonna start picking themselves up, yeah, and they're gonna think about it. And next thing you know, you're hitting the barrel because they lost traction somewhere. They lost, but if you give that some bitch some confidence that says, hey, I got your your front end and your ass end are gonna stay with us when we go in here and we'd plan it and do that. And this doesn't go for every horse. Some some horses do need that. Like some horses just want to know they can slide through there and then turn the barrel. Calf horses, Gene did a same study on calf horses. Young calf horses would come in there, just drag their asses, and they could keep their front end sliding. And just literally changing the front feet on that calf horse, by them not thinking they were gonna fall over their front end. Horse calf horses sometimes quit their stop because they think they're gonna fall over the front end, and then all of a sudden they think they're gonna fall, fall, fall, and then they come out of the stop, pick themselves up, finish the stop. If they think that front end can stay in front of them and it's gonna keep sliding with their hind end, they will stay in that ground all day long. And so, and that goes for reiners, cow horses, whatever. But as soon as you the horses, yeah, they they're gonna protect themselves. So you have to give some confidence to them somewhere along the line. And that's uh I don't know, I think that's a huge deal. Along those same lines, uh it comes and goes. I swear, I've almost gotten so tired of it on social media about you inject every joint your horse, you don't inject your horse, like all of these things. But what do you think like stigmatism as a performance horse? Sure, I mean you've shod for not only just like world or NFR horses, but I mean other world champ disciplines, but then there's still people that come up to you and are like, Well, we had to inject this. Like, is this your fault? And I I mean, let me back that up. Shoeing can cause definitely some maintenance, but there is not main. Do you have any maintenance that you feel offended by, or is that still just back to with performance horse vets if you guys are actually working together? Yeah, so sometimes bad shoeing can cause like certain things to meet inject, and then coffee bone can get pissed off, you know. I mean, like out of balance. Saying like that, yeah, I mean that can happen, but I don't think like uh we had a client a while back got one's coffee bones injected and kind of text me and let me know like it was gonna offend me. Like I like it, I was like, good, good, like I mean, they need it. I mean, it's like that's like telling your mechanic you caught you had to call and get the oil changed in your pickup, like they're gonna be upset that you'd like, well, they need it. Like, I mean, and not everyone needs it, that's why you got a vet. I mean, like, look at it and see it. I'm like, yeah, I'm not saying poke them everywhere in the world, but like if you can if they have something that needs it, like I mean, gosh dang, I mean, like, help them. I mean, they if you think God built barrel horses and cutting horses to do the stuff we do with them, and think we can like don't need that, you are wrong, like in my opinion. And and I don't care, like, I mean, I can shoe on to I can't hardly help anything above the knee and the hawk. I mean, there's yeah, we can do some little things to make a little bit of that better, but if their hawks hurt, if their SI hurts, if their knees hurt, like I can give them a little more breakover to help their knee, but like like that's not on me. I mean, like, that that is like like how many great head horses you go sit on a barrier at the Thomas and Mac and look at how many what their knees look like on the at the Thomas and Mac. I mean, it's but does that some bitch run out there and do his job better than any other horse on the planet? Absolutely. I mean, do you think Michael Jordan just is a clean, like doesn't have a bump on him? No, you're wrong. Like, I mean, like, no, for sure. Yeah, and like, and like, yeah, that goes to like beauting them and giving them banamine. I mean, like, yeah, I'm not gonna go shoe 20 horses and just drink water and eat frosted flakes, I'll tell you that right now. Well, even like that, with no, maybe you can't, you know, fix everything, you're not the vet, but like if something is going on, I've noticed like with you, you'll be like, hey, you know, that this some bitch probably needs his hox done. Yeah, hey, you know, this something is going on, like, and that is like having somebody that shows for you that does pay attention to stuff too, you know what I mean? And so that is helpful because sometimes you know your horse is still working, yeah, right. And then you don't, you know, I get my horses injected, but maybe I'm not right on top of it every six months, you know. I'm not, you know, yeah, I'm not perfect about it, but it is helpful. Then like you guys come over and you're like, hey, this is what's going on, and like, you know, that is helpful to have from your shoe too, for sure. Yeah, we might we might feel or see something that you haven't seen because we're underneath their feet, like I mean, like, yeah, just like somebody like having a cult, they're like, Oh, I can pick his feet up. Well, can you pick his feet up and rub your shoulders in his flank for the next three minutes? Like, probably not. So that that is a thing, and it's the same thing as like holding their leg up. And if we're like if Clancy's underneath their finish one or whatever, and they're hawks, like, and they like, yeah, I I can feel some things, and you can I can feel their coffin bones. I mean, we can feel like if there's a lot of pressure over their uh hairline there, pretty sure. And some and I always tell people this on the injection deal, and I'm not a vet, don't claim to be one, but I've learned from a lot of them and I listened to a lot of them, and I've seen them inject them and then watch it shoot across the football field with that much pressure. And sometimes to me, it's not about the injection. It's and I would love some vets to voice in on this, but like it's not about the injection. Sometimes it's about getting all that bad fluid out of there. Yeah. I mean, there I don't know what's a lot to come out, but I've seen it shoot, you know, a long ways away, and then and a lot of it drain out, and then all of a sudden you put a little bit, you know, whatever it is, if you you know, a couple CCs or whatever, of good stuff back in there. That pressure does not feel good. I mean, like, there's no way. I mean, basketball players get their knees drained every day. I mean, it's like it's a thing. I mean, uh, and like, yeah, beauting them, like we've talked about this, like uh yeah, the beauting of a like a performance horse, go ahead and do it. I mean, like uh I'll guarantee you, I would rather have a little bit of a tummy ache from having ibuprofen than having a sore back and sore knees, you know, so I can go shoe and do my job. I want to do my job. I mean, like 100%. Is me taking a little bit of a leave every day gonna kill me off? Probably not. No, well, asking hell not here. Anyway, but like I know like guys, um, yeah, like some of the guys, like some of them Canadian buddies that have had the greatest bulldogging horses on the planet, I mean, they'll give them some beauty, they'll give them some ban I mean, and like they are there to do their job. And um, if we're gonna uh beat around the bush on that, I I think it's a wrong thing to uh not give them that stuff to where you think if if you think the the best horses in the world that are back in the box and running barrels at the Thomas and Mac are running dry, 100% you are wrong. I think I yeah, I think for sure. I think you know, beats a wonderful thing, Ben I mean um all things, but even back to what you said, if you think the people that are riding into the arena in the Thomas and Mac don't have horseshoeers that they trust and don't have a vet that they trust to do the injections, you know, and you see so many things when you're selling horses, you know, I want no maintenance. Okay, well then you're probably not gonna get a sound horse. You know, it just is what it is, and so you know those people have done it, and then yeah, you need to give them some beauty, you need to give them some. Man, I mean, once in a while, they're probably going to be appreciative of it, you know. But if you don't have the right team in your corner of, you know, people taking care of your horse, then you're failing him from the beginning. Yeah. Absolutely. And just like we talked even a little bit when we were talking to Haley, it's like sometimes people put more emphasis on all the things rather than your performance horse bet and your performance horse sure. Like you can't just go buy a blanket to fix what you've got going on on their feet, like or with the vet. And yes, I I think I could have got swallowed up into it when I started rodeo and you know, when you're young and you get started, and everybody has everything in the world. And you know, shout out to Jessie Telford. Because when I started traveling with her, she's like, okay, why are you putting all that on your horse's legs? She's like, it's 90 degrees, and you're gonna put back on tracks on. Do you think that's gonna do harm or good? I'm like, uh, okay, you know, sometimes you do have to let them be a horse. Like, don't get me wrong. Um, there is those things, but you should cover your bases first, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. And honest to God, that starts with a good horseshoe, and you see it all the time. And how many people come up that, and I was gonna touch on this later, but in the Northwest, this is where a lot of pressure is put on horses that are, you know, going to rodeo to make the finals. And how many people, you know, call for a horseshoe, or now they know Tex, and then you know, like for years, Caldwell, like everybody that's coming through here, they're like, we gotta get Tex to do it because somewhere along the line they've been away from home and had somebody do something wrong. Yeah, and you're picking up the pieces for them to go into the last two months of making the finals. Yeah, and on that note, like on the rodeo, people or travelers, whatever, of you know, reigners or cowhors. I've I mean I've helped all of them out, but like on that deal, like I like, yeah, I don't know, like uh I'll either call their shoe to if there's something that I gotta scratch my head about. But one thing I have it's happened a lot, uh, is a lot of shoer, like girls get up here trying to say trying to make the finals or whatever, just rodeoing, you know, trying to make a living up here, and uh they get up here and they're away from their shoe in Texas or whoever it is, and um they get up here and then somebody sees it and and is like, oh my god, like that is the worst shoe job. And that's one thing I will say I hate other shoeers cussing other shoers. It pisses me right off. Like, you don't know what it looked like prior. You don't know, like, even if and honestly, if in this day and age, if you can't make a living without cussing somebody else, you should probably go do something else, like maybe call your mom and help her do nails or something. So um, I will say because it's it's horseshit the guys cuss other guys because no, nobody's trying to do a bad job out there, they just see it different than you see it, maybe, and and maybe they see it terribly. I mean, I don't know, I don't care. Like, um, but I will say, well, like on the rodeo guys come through here, I mean, I might say, hey, we could maybe do this. They're like, Man, he's been working good, been winning the way I we got him shot. All right, let's shoe him that way. Like, that's okay with me. Like, I can shoe that some bitch any way you want to. I can paint your house any color you want to. I don't care, it's not my house. And that that is one thing I think people, especially uh, I mean, it's happened a lot. And I mean, like, and then guys start changing something all of a sudden, like, oh now I now now they gotta send the horse home because he's crippled. And and that's not okay. Like, I mean, especially when people come here, you know, we're August, September. I mean, we're hitting the the down and dirty this time, and and I'm this just in the rodeo world, but this everything, like even Rainers, like I'm not gonna go change a rainer or a cow horse just because I think it needs to be shod this way. The sun bitch has been shod this way all year, and it's just one shoeing in between the guy that's been shooing, and I'm gonna shoe him after me. I don't If they say, hey, this is how we shoe them, this is how it works, then shoe it that way. It's not that big a deal. Like, don't but but then there are times where like, hey, like this horse is getting abscesses, he's doing this, he's stumbling, he all this, and then we look at it and say, hey, we could do this to help it out better. If you're okay with it, then let's do this. And the vet says, Hey, this needs to happen. Okay, let's shoot that way. Like it's there's we should be able to do all those things, and in my opinion. Like, our our job is to make you guys as competitors keep competing and winning, and the horse is happy as can be. Like, it's not we should have no ego pull in that whole entire deal, in my opinion. Except for I am gonna play the devil's advocate on this. So you are talking about which is true, and and I'm not saying that people with gold buckles or world championships or any of that are any more important than somebody that has a backyard horse because Tex does a very good job of not playing favorites. I will definitely say that. But except when it's me. Well, I mean, you know, or me. Yeah. Um but but the thing that I get frustrated with is exactly what Tex is saying. He is telling the truth. Like, if he goes to shoot somebody's horse and they're like, dude, I don't care if this is how it looks, like he's working or do it. Tex like, all right, let's do it. I'll do it how you want it to be done, I'll do it. But then what I hate is is that somebody who maybe doesn't haul out of a small circle or whatever, and all they have used is chat GPT about how to shoe their horse. They're like, nope, this is how you have to do it. And Tex is still fairly amical about that. And I wouldn't be. I mean, you need to actually I'm not a horse shoeer. That's like when people ask, I'm like, I'm not a horseshoe. Like, you need to call your horseshoe, or you need to talk to my husband. I'm I know if it looks terrible, but maybe it's supposed to be that way. I'm also not a vet, you know. I mean, half the time when I go to the vet, I'm like, I think it might be the right front. It could be like the left hind. You know what I mean? Don't be trying to cram your ideas that you've rant read on Google of how your horse should be shot. Also, I'll play devil's advocate on that though. Not on Google. But sometimes I will go to Tex or you know, some and be like, hey, this is what I'm feeling, or this is what you know, and he doesn't dismiss you, yes, if you're on Google or whatever, but there is a fine line because you're you know, you don't like just be like, Oh, you're an idiot. You know what I mean? You could think that, but you might but you do entertain it of like okay, you they because we are riding the horse every day. Yes, if it's someone, I mean, there's always a special circumstance, right? Yes, I agree with that, but you've also like competed on like a for sure. I'm not hacking on anyone, you're fine. I'm just seeing that there's like different sometimes you should trust the expert too. But you do have to be an advocate for your own horse and your own health. Yeah, 100%. And on I guess I will say on that, they'll just like I and I have had clients like and I've actually lost clients because I've shot them the way they wanted them shod, and I've said, by doing I will shoe your. I said, if you want this, is this is fine, this is how you want it shot, and I will I will shoe it your way. I could shoe it a better way, and this is like my everyday clients. This isn't and that and so back what we were talking about was like a traveler coming in, you know, whatever. And so at that point, I'm gonna accommodate what is working the best for them. But on my everyday clients, they'll be and like just like Rainey. If Rainey says, or Jesse says, you know, Abby says whatever, you know, like a Kabby doesn't ever guess, eh? Oh whatever. Shut up and listen. And so and but if like I like I respect my clients, like if they feel something, and there are clients that like have been there, done that, win, can feel it, and if they say, hey, I'm feeling this, all right, let's try it that way. Like, or like let's do something, let's change something to make it better. Like, yeah, I'm I see the sun bitch every six, seven weeks, you know, and or seven weeks, and I will say seven weeks, in my opinion, is the best schedule to keep your horses on. You can clip that right there. Clip it. So uh, but for a reason, too early is too early. Like, you gotta let their soles and hoof grow, and you have to get new nail holes and do it. The way I shoe, I back their toes up a little bit, uh maybe a lot. So let me get back to what we were talking about as soon as I finish this, but like that is huge, and sometimes people want to shoe him, they're like, Oh, you shot him, and the next day I won the barrel race. Well, that was good. That like that to me is like a coincidence. Like, I mean, in a sense, like, yeah, his feet were good that day, but like, gosh dang, like they've got to have some soul. And so then you're meaning you don't that's then people are like, well, now I want to shoot him every yeah, you want to show them they're like, Oh, I'm going to another not a coincidence they ran the barrel race. No, like obviously they think that just because they won that barrel race or that rodeo, now they want to shoe him every three or four weeks. Well, I got news for you guys. I can't, like, there's nothing for me to mess with. Like, and and in the barrel racing world, I see a ton because girls like, oh, we gotta get them shot, gotta get them shot. Like 90% of the time, if they let them go just a little bit longer and get some sole growth and some hoof wall to like everything get happy, that hoof will, and then they trim them correctly, and then put a shoe on there and it's shod correctly, everything is good. But when you start being the person that's in the way and saying, shoe, let's shoe them every four weeks and do it. Pretty soon you know have no more sole, you have no more hoof wall, you have nothing, and now you don't have a horse, and now you're wondering why your horse is crippled. Let that horse grow some hoof, and uh, I will say that until the day I die. And so, yeah, and um and also um we're not gonna argue about how long my horses go, but I rarely lose shoes, even on everything that I am I am running, and I'm not just doing this to like pat Texas back, but it's because my horses like have foot built up because yeah, they don't well. I mean, even like no shade to anybody, but like Flash had a quarter crack forever and ever. Like from when I can remember when I was roading on. It was just part of it, it was just part of it, like and horseshoe tried everything. Like I said, I'm not cussing anybody, it just was what it was, you know. And I and this goes back to all the you know crap that we were talking about um last week with Haley of just like all these things that people try, and you know, never just letting a horse be a horse. Yes, you know, and I think that's like the biggest thing is like, yes, let them go. Not obviously as long as I let them go, but like let them be a horse, let the hoof grow a little bit. We can't micromanage our way into them doing anything, you know, like they were not raised or raised, they were not made to do what we do with them, and that goes for you know being in a 12 by 12 stall the time, or you know what I mean? Like, yeah, sometimes you just have to let them be a horse. Yeah, and let mother nature like I'm I always say it to my clients, like, let mother nature take over here. Like, some sometimes we're having an issue, and then oh let's try this. And like, how about we uh just let see what mother nature pulls out of some bitch? Like, we'll give it a couple months and see what happens, like and give me something to play with. But I'll tell you right now, if you're having your shoe or shoe him every three or four weeks, and like and he's just constantly trying, like, I mean, what do you think he's doing? Like, he's popping the shoe off, and yeah, I guess her could be um also. Uh, but they're popping the shoe off, they're rasping it flat to nothing. I mean, there's nothing, no hoof to rasp anymore. They just but you got to do a little bit of something. They put a new shoe on there, they have to slide it around, slide it back, maybe punch new nails to get new nails. What do you think you accomplished there? I mean, what can afford that? That's what I always say. Wow, yeah, and I that's like I always uh that's another thing. It's like I mean, I could have a 10-week schedule and keep all my clients happy, but like, and some guys like to have a four or five week schedule, and I think sometimes it's because they only have a handful of clients, and I mean then that's okay. And some guys shoe long to wear this that way, but I where I can work to do that kind of I guess. I I haven't figured that out. I know how my deal works, and I mean I've had clients, I've had clients that I've had my entire career and haven't lost them. I've lost some for and I oh, I was gonna go back to that. Like I what I said was like losing, I've lost some clients, and I've I mean a handful of them, and it was because I was shooing their horses the way they wanted me to shoe them. And if they kind of would have let me do my job, like I mean, I could name them right now, and it was like I shot them, but it's like I shod this horse the way you wanted it shod. Like I had one good client, I thought we were friends for a long time and lost her because I was literally shooing them the way she wanted to, and it was little things that I knew was wrong, but it's what she wanted to do, and um yeah, and I'm a big I mean I sh I back the toe up on the front on on the hind too. I back I got them backed up, I'm backing that toe up, but the back half of that foot is full as can be. Like, I mean, I got shoe hanging out everywhere, but yet I don't lose shoes. Like, I mean, I lose shoes, don't get me wrong, everybody lose them, and I'm okay with that. Like, I'm gonna shoe them that way, and if they lose a shoe, we'll tack the summage back on, and no big deal. But I'm not gonna shoe them so tight. They're constricted. Yeah, I'm not gonna put like my rule. So, a couple little things I live by. Like, my number one motto, keep it simple, stupid. Like, kiss, like I learned from that from a long guy a long time ago. And keep it simple, stupid, and that keeps. I mean, man, what are we trying to do here? Like, I don't want them to trip, that toe needs to be backed up, the back half needs to be full. Big deal. Like, is it that hard? No, and uh, and then it's weird. My horse's feet get bigger feet every time I shoe them. I mean, I I've I shot a horse this winter that the guy had double lots on, and whatever. I'm not even cussing him, but like just the way he shod. But I went to ones in one shoeing. The next time I shot that horse, that horse had twos on because we got the frog hitting the ground, it got balanced correctly, doing all the things. Um talk about I think that's something people don't understand is it's like even if you just take the shoe off and let them stand flat for what is it, like 30 minutes? Not very long. Let them yeah, let them float. I mean, how arrived their feet are. Yeah, you can relax that entire hoof and let that frog hit the ground. And and that's one thing. Like, I am like anybody that's I've shod for or helped me or anything, like I take some heel off, and and you have to, like, and this is a thing, like all the old ladies, like you'd shoe horses, you'd pull in there, don't touch that some bitch's heel, and they that would be their deal. Like, like that last guy, he cut all of her heel off. Well, you're full of shit. Like, go be a horseshoe. If you think you aren't supposed to take heel off, I can make I can take heel, and I'm not saying I gut the heel, but I'm saying I can take some heel and I will stand that horse up more than the guy that left the heel, or you left it because you want to, and that horse will be more sound, and I promise you. And the next time that heel will be strong because heels grow forward. I do an angle on the video, heels grow forward, not down. And so if we constantly are cutting, not we just keep leaving the heel and leaving the heel, it's pretty soon it's way in front of the leg. And so if we trim the heel back, the toe comes back with the heel. Like that is a thing, and like and from the beginning of time, for some reason, people have told their shoeers, don't touch his heel. Well, and I I've had people tell me that, and I'm like, all right, sounds good. And I just go take my little bit of heel. I the thing is that frog's got to hit the ground, so that's when I'm trimming the heel, I'm looking at the frog, trying to help it like I need the frog in the play, like it's gotta be in the football field with me. Like, if it's not, it dies. Like, I can't score a touchdown without a running back. Like, plain and simple. Like isn't that like, I mean, isn't it proven that because in the I think that started in like the late 80s, Raney wasn't even alive. Uh, they started saying, you know, don't take the heel, don't and that's when navicular just really started developing. I don't know that much about it, but I've read a little bit about Western Horseman produced an article that said to shoe them at like a weird angle, and they left a ton of heel by doing that. And yeah, when you leave that, the navicular bone's basically underneath the sulcus of the frog. So if you're sitting there leaving the heel all the time, and then you start crushing the heel, you're crushing the navicular bone, which causes navicular syndrome in the whole nine yards, and you do some weird things. If the hoof should be balanced and protected back there, and that's why I say I should put a like I'm always gonna put a size bigger shoe on one, like like you will not see me if that some bitch is in between say an aught and a one, I'm putting a one on there all day. I mean, I got a grinder, I got all the shit to cut them or whatever I need to do, but I will always put the bigger size shoe on there, and and I'm doing that for me and the horse, like it's uh that making them more confident makes everything, and and you'll be surprised. You'll be like, oh my god, there's shoe hanging out everywhere. And then about four days, that foot's out to the edge of that shoe, or you know, or closer, it wanted to go there, like plain and simple. And then next time you shoe it, it's even a little bigger, and that that is a big deal. But if you tighten that some bitch up all the time, you're tightening, tighten up because somebody's whining about losing shoes. All of a sudden, now what'd you do? You caused quarter cracks, you caused some uh navicular, you you you ruined their heel. You did all sorts of stuff by by worrying about like somebody pulling a shoe, which they're pulling shoes because of some completely other reasons. It might just be some freaking nature, might have been they pawed the fence, like like, or they like it's not that big a deal. How we we've we kind of skipped that, like we fixed Flash's quarter crack just because he started shooing her fuller when full of things. Yeah, I got the frog, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I put the running back in the game and got I got the frog on the ground and just f fold her up a little bit to where she all of a sudden just everything was happier and her foot had somewhere to go and relax. Her front feet too, yeah. You know, yeah, because she had like her front feet were literally like the this big, and then like now, you know, um, but it's just crazy. And I do think that people that goes back to what you were saying with Google and Chat GVT, and then they really think they know something, yeah you know, and I just yeah, I I just go back to this and I've said it 57 times just today. People just don't know how to let horses be horses anymore, and I think it just it and you can see so many things, it's just caused more harm than good in a lot of ways. A lot of good things have happened in the industry too, don't get me wrong. I just think sometimes they need to absolutely be horses. Well, absolutely. Well, the devil's advocate to what I just said that you are agreeing with is this I just ran into this really just like the last year or two with some of my clients, and I'm like, maybe we should check his feet, like maybe or like we should look at this, and then the vet contacts that their horseshoe and their horseshoe gets on the muscle and gets angry and isn't willing to do it, and then we still have a crippled horse. So, yes, there has to be a happy medium. Well, I will like for the horseshoeers out there listening on this. Um, I will say that 100%. Like, I've fixed a lot of horses by doing nothing more than what the vet and the client asked me to do. I I didn't reinvent the wheel, I didn't do anything, and some guys might even get pissed at me for yeah, now they're the my clients or whatever. I didn't do anything that you weren't asked to do. And I I did want to cut touch base on this on like the horseshoe or like other horseshoeers, farriers, whatever we want to call ourselves. Like, I literally have how many like six or seven clients within the last year that come and they're like, We asked this guy to say put a PLR. This is true, do whatever, you know, like do these little things to help, and they literally just didn't do it. That's trying to be like not my or literally said that's just not how I do it. Yeah, and or I don't see why this, or show show me an x-ray that shows that, or whatever. Well, I don't need to see that shit. If they say, hey, this will help, and the client says, Hey, I would like to do this, I'm gonna do it. Like, and I I don't understand where they think that that's not okay, or their uh liability or something like that, like jumps in the way. Like, if you have there's three of us involved here, there's a farrier basically, usually a vet and owner. If two of us are saying do it one way, let's go ahead and do it that way. Let's jump on the boat together and see. And if worst case scenario, you shoe it the way they said to do it. Well, you can you either lost the client because you did it the way they want to, but I doubt that's gonna happen. Like I've never lost one where two of them like there was a vet and an owner saying to do it one way. It's just when the owner says to do something. Like, oh my It walks funny on the concrete or something like that, sounds funny, then they uh like well, like geez, like what is that backup? I mean, like, you don't have a hundred percent of that. And so um oh, I had a great point I wanted to make a second ago. Well, that you can think that goes back to what you were saying, though, with not having the ego with a vet, and you know, like horseshoe do get mad, you know, but that is vets should know more, you know, when it comes to a film and then talk to you guys about it. I mean, yeah, and so why would it be getting mad at anybody? You know what I mean? And so that's what is frustrating. It's not a big deal. I don't, I don't, I literally do not know why that's a big deal, some guys. And and like if I would love if like uh I had a client that I worked with, I think I shot for for eight years, very high profile client, and uh Billy Maupin was her vet. And I would not deal with the client on anything we had, and we're talking very nice horses, you know, like uh very winning individual and world champion, yeah, Hall of Famer, the whole day deal. But with if there was an issue, which there really wasn't in eight years, but if there was anything, Billy called me, text me, whatever, and said, Hey Tex, let's uh let's throw this shoe on there, let's back it up, do whatever. I 10-4 buddy, got it. Like, that was it. Like that, and that was the end of it. And if like she was out of it, you know, and it's like, and but like I didn't when Billy texted me or called me, like, God damn it, I know how to shoe a horse. I'm not gonna like have you just throw your weight around. Like, no, it's like like I don't like once again. I see these some bitches every seven weeks. That's the only time I see them. I see them when they're standing on a perfect flat. Hopefully, God bless America. Please get concrete and mats for your shoe or please don't. Hey, when I die of melanoma cancer, everybody else's fault. And it honestly is mine. Yeah. I need them way too freckly to be out in the sun. Anyway, so uh, but yeah, I don't I that did not hurt my feelings if Billy called and said, hey, let's change something. For sure. Yeah, we're on a team, like it's okay. Like, I mean, good god, if the pit crew, you come in, they say change the tires out, like Jesus Christ, is Les Walking to throw a fit about it? I don't think so. They're gonna sell him tires. Like, I mean like it's uh thing. I don't know why. Yeah, I don't know. Like, I I have a very hard time with that. And I don't yeah, but listen to be on the team, I guess, is the best thing I can say. What speaking of that, just because we like to pick on our friends, if somebody's setting up a shoeing pad or something for your shoer, what do you think is important? I would love to have a consultation on this. Actually, if anybody's setting up any horse deal, I can draw one up. I understand these. Just like in general, draw it up for us. And some people are building things and it's scary. Um, man, like we like to shoe on there's guys in Arizona, like when we're on down there shoeing, they will not shoe it. Like, you better have concrete and shade, or you better find another guy. And and they're smart. Like, I mean, it's uh shoeing in rock, sand, unlevel ground is hard. So explain why that's hard to do. They don't like you don't at the end of a day, like when I shoe on concrete with pad or mats, like the horse pulls on me. The horse can't win in that deal. Horse pulls on me and I'm shooing in sand and gravel, my feet slide, and he wins, and so then the next time he pulls harder and he wins again, and pretty soon, which I haven't had one tip me on my head, but it well, they will. I mean, they pull so hard that they start to win that battle. And in on concrete and path mats, they don't win. And we don't, our feet don't slide, it's way safer. Um, we can see their feet better because here's the other deal. Like, I've shot horses in sand and gravel or whatever, and you're shoeing, you're trying to do your job, you put a shoe on, and three or four days goes by, and they're like, Hey, we think you hot nailed a horse. I'm like, Yeah, then maybe I guess, but I don't, I mean, it doesn't happen very often, but it happens to everybody. So I go out there, no, a piece of sand got underneath the shoe while I was shoeing the horse, and you know, just a little tiny piece of a little granule of sand, like a assault grain, got underneath there and got in there, and and then you got the shoe pushing on that and it's pissing it off, and it's like it's not clean. I mean, like we need a clean area to shoe. We can see angles better, just everything about it's better. I mean, it's like, yeah, I mean, it's it's uh, I mean, you don't go to the dentist and ask they don't ask you to sit on a hay bell or they saw on your teeth. Talk about the hunt time. This is this is a freaked out when they just had a bunch of um uh just portable panels that they just tied the horses up to. Oh, yeah, that was bad. You're being very professional, like you gotta tell something. I'm like, are we talking about my household? This was terrible. Like, this whole stall system is built on like and they weren't even like they're like they didn't even have T-posts. I don't just like literally like like they weren't even the powder rivers, I don't think they were the cheaper like panels, and so there's like six or seven head, there's and we're shooing in like four to six inches of sand. I mean, you can't even see anything. I mean, it's power, no power, it's like a nightmare. Like literally, and like this, not even sand, it's like moon dust. And I swear to god, this is at my house. Not your house. Well, anyway, and I got this one cult. I'm out there by myself. Nobody's there. Well, come out and hold the orchard. I was gonna ask that later. Well, I can handle not somebody holding them if they got a good if they got a good spot, I can handle pretty much everything else. But when it's when it's yeah, raise your hand if you've been yelled at for not helping. Yeah, well, it's because you two are sitting on your phones. I usually bring in Nicola Wolf, that's not even enough. And this this horse, so there's like eight of these subbits is tied to the same. I mean, they're they're pins, but they're all like panel pins that are connected, connected continuously. Yeah, and so and I see this nightmare about to unfold. So at one point I kind of turn some of them loose, and I've got this one. Then and I mean, I don't, I mean, how the hell do I not have one tied up and be under it at the same time? Like, I I don't mind one being tied up. I want somebody to be there to hold. There's not there. So this I know he's gonna throw a fit. I'm under a shoe and this some bitch just throws him a fit. And I am underneath their nail and throws a fit, pulls back, and I mean, this horse pulls this entire. I mean, there's 30 panels tied to this deal. This is fairly recent. It was a couple years, yeah. He pulls, and my shoeing rig's parked right there, and I have a nice shoeing rig and doesn't have a ding on it, except for the front left front left fender. Anyway, and this image, I'm like, oh my god. And so I dive, he starts pulling, I dive under the panels, and I just spin around and I watch the shit show start to and he pulls and the panels all flip like this, and my truck's right there. It flips them perfectly over the top of my truck, doesn't touch it, big deal, not even, and there's another horse tied to the other end. They take off running, and I'm not shitting you. There is 30 panels going down the road behind these two horses, and I'm like, holy shit! And I'm like, and so I literally just start loading up like this is not good. And the husband comes out who isn't a horse guy, he goes, Jesus Christ, this is a shit show. And I was like, He goes, I'm so sorry. I'm like, Yeah, I'm I'm like, Yeah, actually, I have to go. Yeah, that we're done here anyway. So, yeah, I mean, stuff like that. I've had yeah, more wrecks from that sort of stuff than anything, but yeah, yeah. I I was gonna ask you the craziest thing. Um, but I do remember one time um you were at a place that does have a good place to shoe, but I was there as well, and uh this horse was literally trying to kill you. I'm trying to remember. Well, we don't have to get into it, but I was gonna ask because then I tried to give it sedation, and then I tried to kill you. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah, and it was not my horse. Yeah, uh, but that doesn't matter. I was gonna ask you, like, besides that story, because that seems pretty crazy. What's like the one because like we've been going a while now, the one craziest, besides was it that story that you just told, or do you have one like crazier? I I I think there's just lots of ones like oh, I did uh Zalen was working for me. He's gonna be so happy. Shout out Zalen. Yeah, yeah, great helper, great guy, learned a lot. He's great shoeer now. Um yeah, good dude. Um, so uh Zalen was helping me, and we were actually at Badiola's. This is kind of almost embarrassing. And so uh we were shooing over at Badiola's, and his Badiola's good horse, old Pepper, like everybody knows him. Big old soggy gray came from Man Azovito, great horse. Like, like shoeing your kid's horse, like gentle, good to do, everything. Well, old Pepper, for some reason, I can't remember there was a flyer or something where he was tied up, and I'd already trimmed, I shod the left side, then I was going to the right side, and uh I was nailing the right front on, and I'd already trimmed the right hind. And so it's sharp, like I don't know anybody that's shod the horse, but when you've I just got done rasping it, there's no shoe on it. The foot is just sharp as can be. I mean, big old sharp angle there. And I shoe in tennis shoes, and because uh yeah, it makes my knees and back and everything feel better. Anyway, so yeah, I've broke some toes over this situation, and I god, I wish I could show a video of this of this toenail. No, but this son of bitch, he hangs his halter on something while I'm nailing, like and then he didn't he it was great to shoe besides this. He just something happened up front, pissed him off. So he goes to pull back. When he goes to pull back, though, he jumps with his hind feet and he jumps with his hind feet and puts the uh that sharply fresh trimmed shoe, just cuts right into my tennis shoe and goes right over, like right behind my toenail on my big toe and my next toe. And then he proceeds just to pull back, and I mean he's pulling back and pushing, and the only thing in between him and the ground is my toe. Anyway, and so I was disgusting. I'm like, oh my god. Anyway, and so Zayn's like, are you okay? I'm like, I'm good, I'm good. Anyway, so I freaking uh I get done, and uh I like he's like, Why do you do that? I'm like, I have no idea. And he's like, You okay? I'm like, I don't know, I think my toe hurts like hell. I uh but I'm gonna finish. So we finished shoeing anyway, and so I don't take my shoe or anything off, and so get nailed on, and he's fine, it's just something his halter hung on, something stupid. Anyway, get him shot, put him away, and then I'm like, Well, we better go to the house and make sure I still got a toe, I guess. Anyway, so I drive up to the house and uh only a couple miles away, and I take my shoe off and my sock, and I mean my I literally some people have seen the video, and uh like my toenails are just literally hanging on my skin. So I just grab my leathermen and I just pop them off the rest of the way and put a little iodine or something on there and another sock, and we went back to work. But uh yeah, that that happened. I've had that happen uh time or two, shit like that. And then so I could shoe in steel-toed boots, but they're so uncomfortable and don't help anything else. And I I like really good uh like CrossFit running shoes or something like that. And uh shout out CrossFit. One more question for you from me. If you had one piece of advice to give to like a young horseshoe or something like that, what would it be? Oh listen, learn. Like, I mean, like there's uh so many ways to skin this cat, like uh, but get a feel. I mean, listen to your gut, I guess. Like, that's one thing I do. I mean, I like nobody taught me how to shoe at the right angle or whatever. I feel it, and this sounds like Harry Potter bullshit. I don't know, like, but when I'm nailing one or trimming one, there's things I feel. I mean, like, it and it sounds crazy, but like uh it it's a thing. I mean, I I can pick up a horse's feeling to it and I can look at it, and I always tell people like like leaving that a whole bunch of heel on one and watching it, like to me, is like having a marble stuck in my back molar when I'm trying to eat something. Like, I can like because horses hit heel four first. So if that heel is so high and it hits so early, so like little things like that, like learn to pick up on those sensitive yours, like like learn to like listen to somebody. If you see a guy shoeing at a rodeo, like I mean, walk over and watch him. He might, and you might think you're the baddest some bitch on earth. I promise you, you're not. Like, there's guys I've picked up so many little things in my career from some little guy shoeing his backyard mule or something like that that had a little trick that I learned, you know, and um things like that. And I've been so open-minded my entire career. I've never been locked into certain things that I could was too proud to learn from another guy. And there are so many shoeers that are that way, like, nope, this is how I shoe them, and this is the only way. It's not that way. Like, I mean, I've I don't know that I've ever changed my original like diagram a whole lot, like because but I shoe how I feel like the horse does, and and since I mean, even when I shoe in like our horses in college, like when I was pretty green, I'm just gonna say I was just kind of a weird natural. I mean, it just like it came to me in the in a weird way. I don't know. So yeah, yeah. I think that's good advice, so like don't be too proud that you know take advice from anybody, but yeah, and yeah. What else you got? Uh I guess maybe you could just end on what you would like your like not your clients, but as a horse owner, what do you think is the most important thing? Good question. We hate irrigated pasture, in case you're wondering. Oh, everybody likes these. And I'm as I'm watching their horses out on irrigated pasture. Yeah, there's like 20 of them running around out there. That's the ones on the death sentence. They don't count. Uh the um no, I don't know. Like uh I one thing I wanted to touch base on is like horseshoers are like are we're people. I mean, like we have lives, like, and this is one thing that like people get mad at their shoers because they won't call them back and stuff like that and say, I can't get an inshuer or this guy or that. Well, if you've been through five or six shoe in the last two or year two or three years, I'm gonna go ahead and tell you it's your fault. Like, uh, like I mean, granted, you might have gone through six or seven bad ones, which I think is gonna be kind of a rarity. Uh part of this is you. I mean, that's uh people don't get married five times because they married five dipshits. Like sometimes that like there was a guy or two, like some of that's your fault. I mean, it takes two to tango and but like I mean, leaf like let us live our lives. I mean, like the same thing. You can't call your banker and get a pickup loan on a Sunday or a Memorial Day or something like that, which we just had Memorial Day, and like, gosh, I mean, yeah, if you have a shoe that is lost or something like that, like maybe send out a text message. But like, I mean, I a couple Sundays ago, I had 38 either mixed calls or text messages on a Sunday, and not one thing was like dire strengths. Like it was I think in people's defense a little bit, because I not that I don't run into or I it's fine, but when you have a nine to five job, you just think, okay, yeah, this is my time. So it's just if I'm thinking about it, I'm just gonna go ahead and message them. But they don't think that if you're self-employed, you don't ever actually have a day with it. Yeah, for sure. And so there has to be a few boundaries. I mean, I'm guilty of it too. Like, I want to text my vet as soon as I'm thinking about it, but it makes me think I hate when people are texting me late about my job, and I'm like, I just need a timeout. Well, and there's just two sides of that deal because I do want to know if you have a shoe tech on and I'm going somewhere Monday morning, I don't want to drive by your house and then have to turn around and come back because you didn't let me know. I mean, I mean, let me know, but like maybe early Monday morning or like or don't demand I ex Yeah, it's you don't need a reply right then. Like if you send the text, yeah. And that is, I mean, like, yeah, like sometimes I've actually like on Sundays, I've got to where I just throw my phone in the front seat of my pickup and it just lives there. And and I do know some guys that um I know a couple shoers that literally have got to where they have different two different phone numbers, they have a business phone and a and another one. Oh, yeah, and there's they won't talk to you or answer you if you don't like they they're they're gonna do their deal on their time, which I mean good on them in a sense, but like I mean, like I want to know, like if you're going to a barrel race or your deal, but like I guess another thing is too, like, I have a great place to shoot here. Like, don't like if you need something, like there was not like like come to me. I mean, it's it's not that big a deal. Like, you drive, you load you load them some bitches up to go to the vet, you'll load them up to go to horse dentist, you'll do everything else. Like, there's nothing written in this law that says I have to drive to you. I mean, like, I have a life, and and and the thing is, I can shoe a lot of horses if you bring them to me in a heartbeat. And I will gladly help you out anytime if you bring them to me, but I don't want to necessarily drive to Meridian tomorrow from Homedale to tack a shoe on. Like, you need it done, I don't need it done. I mean, like, it's kind of that type of deal. And um, for sure. And and yeah, I want to help you out, but like help yourself out too. I mean, like, it's uh and yeah, there's things that could happen that um I don't think our people freak out about and start to like panic about, and they'll be all right. I mean, there's and there'll be a shoe or probably at a rodeo. There'll be one there, and like, and I'm always good about that. Like, if you if these girls say we're at a rodeo and all of a sudden they lost a shoe and needed one tacked on, well, get a guy, and if worst case scenario, have him call me real quick and I'll say, here, tack it on. And then like maybe just put two nails aside. Let's just get some bitch through the next couple of runs and get him home and we'll fix it for good. But uh, let's not reinvent the wheel on the deal and uh don't panic about so much little tiny things. I mean it's uh we're good at that. Yeah, that happens. Quit panicking. Yeah, especially women. I had something I wanted to talk about, but I think I can't really remember. Uh yeah, well, you've done great. Yeah. Um yeah, that's about long ago. Well, we're definitely gonna have you on again. This is great. I feel like this is exactly what um this podcast is about, too. You know, is like getting those ins and outs of that. And so we really do appreciate it. And I feel like this is good important info for people to know too, you know. And like, yeah, and like you said, you can come to the house for sure. And like we said, we're all are in it together. It's for the horse, we're in it for our horses too. That's why you do this job, that's why the vets do their job, and basically just remember that we're all on the same team. Yes, you know, absolutely. So like I want just to build on that real quick, and that was one thing I wanted to touch base on. Like, I mean, there's is a lot of like if you're a good farrier around the like our valley, let alone the northwest, the northwest is starving. I mean, like and it's like eastern Idaho is really starving, like through things, but maybe like like some people just get in the habit of just like, oh, he wasn't he didn't shoot him the way that well, you really know. I mean, like how you wanted him shot. I mean, you say, and then you say stupid things like, oh, he took too much heel. Well, did he really take too much heel? And maybe find out what is wrong or what's happening by somebody else, and say maybe like I can't get there or whatever else. But like I would uh this one thing I would love to touch base on, and like just like back to the way I was shooing some clients' horses the way they wanted them shod. If they would have came back to me instead of firing me and said, like I didn't even know anything was wrong, say, and I've lost very few clients in my career of like uh people I didn't want to lose necessarily. Um but if you come back to them and say, Hey, could we work on this? Because me and you and the vet talk about this, 100%. But all those people were the uh opposite, they're just like like they just found another reason, like and and uh something to make themselves a victim, I guess would be the way to put that. But talk like there's guys out there that shoe really good, but maybe they're shooing that way just to keep the shoes on because they're sick of getting their ass chewed of losing a shoe, and so next time they shod him too tight, and then you go to the vet, and the vet says, Hey, they're shod way too tight. Well, he did that because you whined to him on a Sunday about him being shod too tight. So maybe figure that out and be like, hey, let's shoe them to keep him sound, which is number one rule. Shoe him to keep him sound, and if we lose a shoe in that situation, let's just get nailed back on. Like it's not the end of the world. Like, and and and it and I will say, on building on that, if you talk to him, the vet talks to him, her, whatever, and they won't change, like we have seen lately. They won't change to help you out, then get a new one. For sure. But if you sit down and talk to them and they you say, Hey, can we do it like this? The vet wants, and they say, Hey, yeah, let's try it, like let's work on it. I think most people, most guys are willing to work on that. But and if they aren't, then I mean, honestly, screw them. I mean, like you're they're not, they really aren't don't have your best interest in mind at the same time. But I think most of them would help you out in the middle. So that's one thing I would like to because uh there's not getting to be any more horseshooters out there. So if you get somebody you like their personality and stuff like that, keep them out. It's too hard of work. We're we're turning into the people that we're not gonna do that. That's where we appreciate you so much. I was gonna say, be appreciative. I mean, like it's our job isn't very fun. I mean, but I'll tell you what, like uh I mean, we see little things, I mean, like being appreciative, like having a clean place, I mean to go shoot, like little tiny things, having the horses caught, like just little tiny things, like make our jobs really and and and when we drive out of there and we feel appreciated and we got paid, it it's not about the money and necessarily. I mean, we all need it, but it I promise you, if you if you make your guy feel appreciated, he'll do a better job next time and keep on doing a better job. And but as soon as you make him feel like you make him feel like he doesn't matter, he's gonna not care. So uh I will say that. So clip it. Yeah. Uh well, Tex, thank you so much. This was honestly super awesome. So inform it. Yes, we loved it and we look forward to having you back on. Thanks. Spears Coffee! Really fucking good.