I Was Never Given A Reason

In this episode of THEE BIG SWING, I sit down with a longtime friend for one of the most honest conversations we have ever had.

After a 20-year marriage ended in a way he never expected, he found himself questioning everything.

The pain was not only the divorce.

It was trying to understand how someone who once loved him could suddenly want nothing to do with him. Like so many people, he faced heartbreak, loneliness, financial pressure, and the fear that maybe love was no longer meant for him.

But this is not a story about the end of a marriage.

It is a story about finding the courage to love again.

He shares how an unexpected connection reminded him that one painful relationship does not define every relationship that follows. He reflects on vulnerability, acceptance, healing, and what it feels like to discover that healthy love does not have to be a struggle.

This conversation is about heartbreak, second chances, and giving yourself permission to believe that life may still have something beautiful waiting for you.

If you have ever wondered whether it is worth opening your heart again after disappointment, I hope this episode reminds you that one person’s inability to love you does not determine your worth.

And it does not have to determine your future.

Written reflections are available at theebigswing.com/reflections.

This episode is also paired with the original companion song  I Chose Love Again performed by Beckett Calloway.  inspired by its emotional core, from Thee Big Swing Sessions.

The episode tells the story.
The song carries the feeling.

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THEE BIG SWING with Lloyd Hassell

There's a version of you that existed before something shifted - before a conversation, a decision, a thing you almost didn't say. You don't always recognize the moment it happened. You just notice, later, that you're not who you were.

This is a reflective podcast about those moments: the emotional reckonings and subtle internal recalibrations that change our trajectory over time - and the possibilities still available in life.

Each episode explores what happens when curiosity, courage, accountability, or reflection opens a new way of seeing ourselves and the world.

Through personal reflections and conversations, Lloyd explores changing identities, relationships, self-trust, and the quiet decisions that alter how we see ourselves over time.

This is for people who are quietly realizing they are not the same person anymore - and that there are still choices left.

The biggest swing isn't always dramatic.

Often, it's the shift inside that changes everything.

If something here stayed with you, you can reach me at lloyd@theebigswing.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Welcome to the big swing where everyone has an opportunity to learn. Welcome everyone. We are tuned in, and I say we because tonight I'm going to be learning something from a good friend of mine. I'm going to listen to his story. This is the big swing where everyone has an opportunity to learn.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Tonight, my friend, my brother, I won't call him a guest. We've known each other for years.

SPEAKER_02 0:37

Since 2004, in fact. We've shared a lot of personal things throughout the years. And uh the difference with tonight is that I don't know if I've ever talked to him about anything that he's taken a swing at that he felt was a stretch. He's a low-key laid-back dude. I've never seen him, I've never seen his feathers ruffled at all. So I don't know if there's anything that he's tried that he thought was a stretch, but we'll find out. He is Khalil Sabu Rashidi, a good man, and I'm glad we're here together tonight. This is the first time we've ever done anything like this. My brother, welcome to the show. Thank you so much, brother.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

So let's get right into it. The question is, what has been your big swing? What have you done or attempted to do?

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Whether you've succeeded at it, felt mediocre about it, or whether or not you considered it a failure. Um, I'd like to know, the audience would like to know, and perhaps we can all learn something from your story.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Okay, well, thank you. Thank you so much for for that great introduction. Uh the check is in the mail. Um I can only be honest, bro. So what have I done? My big swing. Well, what I'd like to talk about a bit tonight is, and we've talked about this some before, but probably not in great detail, is something that I took a big swing at and I'm still swinging is getting back into uh revisiting love. And what do I mean by that? You know, as you know, uh I'm a divorced man of three adult kids. You know, I was married for about 20 years. I would say for the first eleven to twelve, it was pretty good. Then one day after coming home from a couple's vacation as we normally did, I'll it was announced to me that person was through with me after 15 years. Wow. And it was just like that. You know, I'm done, I'm done with this marriage. Uh there's some there was some very uh interesting things said to me, such as, you know, I you know, I have absolutely no attraction to you. Really? Sometimes I hate the sound of your voice. And mind you, these are things that like any couple, you know, we went through our thing like any couple does, but for me to be told that it was just final, it was just done, you know, and that there was so much uh resentment towards me, that that was the part that I didn't understand. You know.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

That's understandable.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Yeah, because we did not have a volatile relationship. You know, we did not uh always agree on things, but I thought we handled it usually prematurely. You know, um and just to be told that I'm done with you, you know, that this marriage is toxic that kind of caught me off guard. Because when I would ask her to elaborate, she never did. She didn't at all, huh? You know, and that was the part that was really puzzling to me. Because if she said, Well, you remember when you did this or that or this, you know, then I could say, Okay, I understand why you feel that way. But we didn't have that type of relationship. You know, there was no infidelity, there was no abuse, there was you know, I tried to be as supportive as possible, even when there were things that I didn't necessarily uh agree with, but that was my wife, so I supported her. You know, so to be told that you know the marriage is toxic, but not told how it's toxic was very confusing towards me. I mean for me. Understandable. So, you know, I that was at the 15 year mark. And then for the next couple years we basically became housemates. You know, she promptly moved out of the bedroom, started staying in the room with my with my daughter, and you know, we had it was a very strange two years, you know, no physical contact, uh, not a whole lot of conversation. You know, we did go to some to marriage counseling, but right she told me the only reason why she was going to the marriage counseling was to figure out a way that she could have a clean break from the marriage, not because she wanted to fix the marriage.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

You know, so can may I may I say something, please, brother? When you said made that last statement, I felt something because I've been married and I'm going through a divorce as you know.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

And that's a tough one to hear. Even for me to hear it for you.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Yeah, yeah. It's tough, it's tough, especially when you really can't put your finger on what went wrong. You know, I mean I'm by no stretch of the imagination a perfect person. You know, but I think that I'm a decent person.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Who's perfect? And I've known you. I've known you, and I've spent hours with you in your home. And I know you to be a really good person, as I said in the introduction of the show.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Well, thank you. I try to be. I try to be a kind person, I try to be uh a logical person, I I try to be considerate, you know, and I took my marriage seriously. You know, it's interesting because I got married at 34, so you know, I was I was a little late to the game, I thought, you know, because a lot of my a lot of my peers had been married already, had had kids, had grown kids, some of them. So, you know, but I came from a situation where my parents were married for 54 years before my dad transitioned, you know, and I saw some things. It certainly was not a perfect could actually be a bit, it was a bit, that was a bit annoying at times, you know. When people go, Oh, you guys are like the cosmies. We're like, no, we're not, we're just people. I remember. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

May I say something? Absolutely. I remember those days. Just like you could observe some of my world from outside my doors, I could as well. And I do remember clearly in the community we lived in, that seemed to be your moniker, the moniker of the Rashidis. Yeah, I never knew how you felt about that. Actually, to be this show is all about being sincere. I thought that that was something that may have appealed to you. So it's it's interesting to hear from you that it could be annoying.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

It was annoying, you know, because no one likes to be placed on pedestal, you know, because it's not realistic. Because when you fall off that pedestal, which you invariably will, you know, then everybody's like, oh, I I you know, I thought, yeah, well, you know, we're just human beings, we're just trying to make it like everybody else, you know.

SPEAKER_02 7:55

Do you think, andor feel that you fell off that pedestal? And if so, how did that feel?

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Well, I'm gonna tell you, I that was something that I said to my my my ex-wife. I said, I I felt that she placed me on the pedestal, you know, because you know, my ex-wife and I, we had known each other for years, for years before we got married, before we became romantically involved. You know, we worked together, that's how we met each other. Um she was at one institution, I was at a at another one, that sometimes we would share clients, and I would call her to give information on someone she might call me. So we had a we had a pretty good working relationship. And then later on, I felt we had a pretty good friendship, you know. So, you know, I've heard people say when they get divorced, that's usually that's the hardest part, is that you lose the friendship that that you had if if you had one before you got married. That sounds pretty common. Yeah. So I can honestly say that that was tough for me, but I felt that, and I told her this on more than one occasion, I felt that, you know, she came into the real into the relationship with some expectations of me that perhaps weren't that realistic, you know. Okay, you know, because you know, I remember when we first got together, you know, sometimes she would look at me and treat me like, you know, like the like the like the the schoolgirl with the with the schoolgirl crush, you know, you know, goo goo eyes, and some people would be flattered by that. Right. But I used to say, no, though, you know, I'm I'm just a guy. Right. Just a guy. Because again, I know what happens when you're placed on a pedestal. And she denied it, but I saw it, you know, and I think some people around me saw it as well. You know, so I think when when she saw that I was just a regular guy, you know, it's like I didn't meet that her expectations that she had of me anymore. And it was like, and then I wasn't trying to prove to be something that I know I wasn't. You know, I had no interest in that. You know, and for whatever reason, you know, once I stopped meeting her expectations, she she was done. You know, and that's that might be put very succinctly, but that's just how I that's how I feel. You know, like I said, because I because I was never told exactly what the problem was, I gotta go by what what was presented to me.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

You know, so my a therapist of mine who I trusted and learned some things from once said to me that he said, Mr. Hassel, facts are one thing, but pre-perception is reality. So, and we all have our perception of things, right? And inevitably, that's what becomes our reality. So when I listen to you talk about how she put you on a pedestal and the googly eyes and so forth, mental health professional. Right? I have no background in that, but I think sometimes people want others to pull their weight where they haven't pulled it themselves. So thus we put someone else on a pedestal.

SPEAKER_03 10:57

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

You know, I I think back to a conversation we had one time. We were watching a movie, and uh I think we were watching, I believe it was Crashed. That was the movie we were watching. And she said to me, uh, you know, I don't know what I would do if something happened to you, you know, implying that she wouldn't live long or she wouldn't live well. And I said, I would hope you would keep living. That's what I would hope. Because we have three, we have three, you know, we had three young children at the time, you know, because our kids our kids are stair steps, they were born in 2001, two, and three, and they were all babies at the same time. So I thought you know, like I said, I started late.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

As the girl said you were getting it in, huh?

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Had to get it done, man, you know. So, and I said that to her, you know, I said, because certainly if God forbid something happened to you, I, you know, I'd be hurt, I'd be crushed, but I I have to live. I gotta live, I gotta live for the kids, you know. And I said, I would want the same thing for you. And we had had some other conversations similar over the years. And whenever I would say that, you know, in retrospect now, I didn't I didn't see it then, but I think in retrospect, looking back on it, you know, maybe maybe those were things she didn't like hearing either. You know, because I'm supposed I can't live without you. You're supposed to say you can't live without me too. You know, I'm like, that's that's that's not that's not my that's not reality for me.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

Thus again, having someone else pull their emotion away, perhaps, maybe. Maybe, you know, because I remember something I've heard recently where it says the relationship that you're gonna have with the same person for the rest of your life is the one with you. Absolutely. Others will come and go, but the one who's gonna be around the entire way is you. Absolutely. So I get your point, and maybe others don't get that point because they don't want to face life without whatever they think they may be lacking, yeah, yeah. So that's one of the reasons you know, these dialogues exist, like on the big swing, so that people can hear someone else's story and go, wait a minute. Wow, I can relate to that, and I think I need to check myself on that, or I need to adopt that, or I need to modify how I do that. So I interrupted you, my brother. Where's your mind at?

SPEAKER_00 13:42

No, because that that's heavy emotional stuff, yeah, yeah, you know, um, and I remember, as I say, you know, two years we were just housemates, and then when she finally moved out, you know, I just recall physically I had been going through a lot of stuff. You know, I mean, I remember I took some time off from work because I I had these unexplained pains in my back and my shoulder. And, you know, I'm sure a lot of it was stress-related. You know, what was it what I was going through? Right. You know, I was diagnosed with a glaucoma during this time, and you know, that was another, it was another struggle, you know. I mean, just things started happening. Right, you know, uh my kids, you know, who I love dearly, you know, started going back and forth between the houses because she moved out. So we were still in the marital home, and the kids decided that they weren't they wanted to spend a week with me and a week with her, so that's what they would do all alternatively. They would go one week with me, one week with her. That was amazing to me because I had, you know, I had never been without my kids. I mean, I saw my kids every single day.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

We were neighbors, so I I remember how you were always with your children. Right. I remember you doing the laundry, cooking, and they were always around. So I could only imagine what it was like for you to go through that on-off thing. Man, it it was and you knew I went through something similar. Absolutely. I went sometimes an entire summer without my wife and children. Yeah, I remember.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

I remember.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

And only the person living through that really understands the feeling of where's my crew? Yeah, where's my noblecy? It's a feeling of abandonment. You're in the house by yourself. The feeling of abandonment. I didn't want to say that, but that's what I had. So I understand.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

Absolutely. And, you know, like you know, like you said, I mean, you know, my kids and I have always been extremely close. You know, extremely close. I mean, this is not superficial closeness, this is real, the real deal stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

So often I wish that I had had the relationship with my children that I saw from the outside and in your home, you having with your children. I was not the type of dad you are, were, and are. I didn't give my children warm, fuzzy feelings. But I witnessed you being cool with them and never getting upset, at least around me. But even if you had, that's that happens with being a parent. Yeah, of course. But um, yeah, I had admiration for how you handled your life with your kids. I still do. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

You're all yeah, that was it was tough, man. It was tough. Um, but you know, one thing though, once she left, though, it was it was an and I know you and I had this talk, you know, there was an incredible lightness that eventually took place in the house. You know, because for a while, you know, especially in those last, those last couple years that we were living together, you know, every time I came in the house, I could feel some heaviness. You know, I could feel some heaviness, I could feel some tension, some friction. You know, there were times when I would catch her literally glaring at me. And I'm saying to myself, what in the world is going on? What could I have possibly done uh to be subjected to this? I and again, I I was never given a reason. I was never, you know, when I would when I would try to prove one thing she said to me was, well, I'm just you know, I've just been in a bad place. And when I said, what does that mean? And I was never given any explanation what that meant.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

Yeah, that's kind of ambiguous.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

Yeah, there's no elaboration on that. Yeah, none. What do you do with that? What do you do with that? And that's exactly what I said to her. What do I do with this? Because you're not telling me anything, right? You're not giving me anything to work with, right? Left in the dark, left in the dark, absolutely. I know what that feels like. Absolutely. Yeah, so you know, but I can say that after she did eventually leave, you know, it at least coming into the household, it was it felt lighter, you know. The tension wasn't there because she she had left, you know.

SPEAKER_02 18:13

I often talk about the synergy that people create. Absolutely. Whether it's two, a combo of two, three, or more. Yeah, there's a certain synergy that happens. Absolutely. And so I get what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

And after she had been gone, yeah, and after she had been gone for two years, you know, what what I found is that, you know, my my system had actually started purging. It purged her, you know. Because like I said, we had no physical contact in those two years. None. Not even so much as touching each other's hands, you know, no physical contact.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

If the audience can see my face right now, and you've told me this before. But as I hear that, um I feel it. Like you're with the woman that you're married to and no physical contact.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

No physical contact at all. You know, I a funny story. I remember um after after she told me that she was done with me and we were just housemates, she had gotten a um, she had been appointed to um one of the commissions in the city. You know, I think it was the healthcare commission for the city of Newark. And she told me about it and she was excited, and you know, we went downtown. I went with her downtown to City Hall for the for the swearing in. Right. You know, because we still marry, you know, still supported. So I went down there and I'll never forget this. We were walking to City Hall, and she reached over and grabbed my hand. And then it's like when she realized she was holding my hand, she like like snatched it away from me. And I remember saying to myself, wow. You know, because when she grabbed my hand, I was surprised. Sure. But when she like let it go and like pushed it away, I'm like, wow, that's again, what I did to deserve all that, I don't know. To this day, I still don't know. I was never told. Right. You know, if if the information is out there, it it hasn't reached me yet.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

And you would be a person that the information should get around to. I agree. Or deserve to hear it.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

I absolutely agree. But yeah, nonetheless, it didn't happen. Um, so yeah. So by the time she left, you know, I my system had pretty much been purged of her, but it was still painful with my kids going back and forth.

SPEAKER_03 20:41

Right. You know.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Um fast forward, um my daughter uh was getting ready to go to college.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

I remember.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

And you know, I being that I worked for Ruckers for 30 years, one of the benefits was having tuition remission. So my thought was that at least one of the kids take advantage of the tuition remission. Yeah, who would what father wouldn't want that? Right. But my daughter had other plans, she wanted to go to Spellman, and you know, I I understood why she wanted to go. But I would try to tell her all the time, look, it makes sense. I understand you want to go to HBCU. I get it. I I had attended one myself, I get it. However, from a financial point of view, it makes no sense. Go to a school, a good school that you can go to for free. You know, once you go to graduate school, you decide well, if if you go to graduate school, you can go wherever you want to go. You can go to the HBCU then if you want. But at least you won't have debt following you, you know.

SPEAKER_02 21:53

Yeah. So that's a big one.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

Yeah. So um, so I had that discussion with her often, as many times. As I could, and everybody else around me that I knew might be uh persuasive, I had them talk to her. But of course, her mom was on another page, you know, she was saying something different. So I had a friend, uh a young lady who I knew from Rutgers, um, who was teaching at Rutgers at the time. She was actually in grad school herself working on a PhD, had graduated from Rutgers, had two daughters who went to Ruckers, one had already graduated, right? And, you know, was Muslim, because at the time my my daughter was was covering at that time, and my friend was was was way jab covered, and I'm saying, oh, you you know, so I thought this would be the perfect person to maybe talk to my daughter. Maybe my daughter would be able to relate to her, you know. Okay. Covered Muslima, Ruckus grad, daughters in school, in school, you know, getting the same tuition remission type deal. So, you know, I reached out to her, told her what the deal was, and she she asked her would she would she uh uh mind talking to my daughter, and she's like, of course. So, you know, we set that up, went down. My daughter did get into ruckus, so we went down there and um and um she spent the half a day talking to the to Asada and you know Osada she seemed like she listened a bit. We did go back down a few weeks later to admit it students' day, and she said, Yeah, I I am interested, but as it turns out, she decided she didn't want to go. She wanted to go to Spelman, so that's where she went. Right, you know. But even though the the talk to my daughter was a bust, as it turns out, you know, uh after talking to Donna a few times, we you know, we we found each other to be intriguing. Okay. And you know, we talked. I I I offered to take her to lunch for for for accommodating us and talking to my daughter. And she agreed to it. We went we went to lunch a few weeks later and had a great lunch and you know, decided we liked each other enough to see each other again.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

And as it turns out, you know, we connected. So the the connection with with her and my daughter wasn't a complete bust. It wasn't a complete washout. In fact, I I think it was a great consolation prize.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

That was a that was a question looming in my mind. Was it these years later, was it a bust? And you just answered the question.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

It was a great consolation prize, brother. You know, and this is the tie-in to what I was what I started off saying, you know, the second time around, you know, now Donna and I have been seeing each other for a number of years, and uh, you know, it's she's an amazing woman, you know, and I say that because we connected when my divorce was in process. Right. And, you know, as as as you know, sometimes when you're going through divorce, stuff happens financially, mentally, spiritually, everything. I do know. You drained in many ways. Shaking my head, but you can relate acknowledging it verbally, yes. And I remember I tried to give her an out because I said to her, I said, listen, you know, I'm going through some things. And it helped too because she's also a divorce, she's a divorce person. Right, you know, right. So she could relate to some of the things that I was going through. And I remember there was a time when when I knew she was my person, you know, someone that we were really connected.

SPEAKER_03 25:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Was when I when I offered him out, and I told her, I said, because you know, I had been through, you know, lights turned off, car repossession, all types of stuff like that. As you know about the car repo, because I was even out of the largest, you know, I was able to borrow one of your vehicles for a while after I can get my car back. I don't remember that, but yeah. Yeah. But, you know, and I told her, you know, this it's not going to be like this forever, but this is how it is now. And, you know, I understand completely if you decide that this is something that you're not that you don't want to deal with, right? Maybe another time or just it's been good while it lasted. And the woman looked me in my face and told me, no, I understand, I've been there, you know, I understand what you're going through. And she said, you know, I think you're worth it. Wow. And when she said that, my heart dropped. You know, literally. Wow. You know, because this is somebody who saw what I was going through. Right. And still said, No, I no, I still I I want to be with you because I think you're worth it. And coming from someone who, you know, who is the exact opposite who you were not worth it to anymore.

SPEAKER_02 26:48

After all you did, I recall, and I'm this is your story, but I recall you doing a myriad of things. Paying the mortgage, paying for the food, transporting the kids. All of the things that a husband would do. So that's normal. But you my point is I don't remember you stressing your wife out with life's responsibilities.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

You know, I I thought we were, I thought we were a team. I thought we were a good team. I thought we handled things pretty well. Right. Um, but again, at some point she became resentful towards me, and and why, I don't know. You know, she didn't tell me why, but she showed me that she was resentful.

SPEAKER_03 27:29

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Um so to have someone come into your life who came into my life and had a different approach, a different take on things, you know. Right. Number one, I was I was shocked because I didn't expect it. You know? Understood. I didn't expect it. Um, I'm sure a lot of women would have said, yeah, yeah, come well, come see me when you get together. Right. When you're not sure.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

I know you have a lot going on right now.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Absolutely. That's what I was expecting.

SPEAKER_02 28:03

Right. That's what I was expecting.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

And that's it. And we'll get together. Absolutely. I'm not going anywhere. Absolutely. You know? So when she didn't when she didn't react that way, I was I was very shocked. What was your age at the time? Oh, oh man. Um let's see. I was 52. Right. 52, 53. Yeah. So I was so I wasn't a younger, a younger man at that point. You know, midline. I was in and by a woman because she's, you know, she's not as old as me, but she's six years my junior, so she was good and mature. Right, right. You know. So it just showed me that, you know, you can you can restart, even if you've had a uh a really negative uh experience.

SPEAKER_02 29:04

Under understood. So this big swing of yours, which is a major component of of life, adult life, right? Marriage that didn't work the way you wanted it to, and then you find yourself with a new woman. And taking what were your words at the beginning of the show? I asked you what your big swing. Oh, yeah, I see.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Well, I was taking this, I I took a swing at at restarting it, you know, starting open.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

I think you said something that this is what I recall now. Um, you take you your big swing was taking a swing at love. Another swing.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Yeah, taking another swing at love. Taking another swing at love. Because, you know, a lot of times guys, we get very jaded after negative relationships. True. You know, very true. A lot of times, you know, we'll go into our bag where where you know I'm not gonna really be serious if somebody comes along, even if even if they show interest in me. I because I remember what happened last time. I've been there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

Lots of us have been there. I've been there. I live the rest of my life by myself. It's okay. Yeah, we we say that. We say that you go walk with me. Right, right. Go sit by the pond and you know it'll be fine.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

I've had enough.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

We get we get that way, you know. And I don't know if I was heading that way, prior. But when I think about it, I certainly could have, I certainly could have jumped into that bag though. It would have been easy, you know, and then I would have rationalized, yeah, well, because you thought you thought you had a great marriage before. You know?

SPEAKER_02 30:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

You know, I mean Fred Sanford.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

You big dumb. Absolutely. Not that I'm talking about. No, I get it. But that's it. Yeah, I had a good marriage before, and you know. It didn't work out.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

Right, right. And it's easy to do that. You know, that is easy to especially when you know you did what you could do. You know, like I always tell people, all you can do is all you can do. I've heard you say that before. Yeah, I mean, that's not you know, I've had that conversation with my my oldest son one time when he was he was going through his puppy love phase and he was, dad, you know, I I just feel I don't know. Uh how do you know? And I say, you don't know. You just do what you can do. You can't change another person. Absolutely not. You can't, absolutely not, and nor should you try to. No, that's not what we're put on earth to do. That's not what we're put on earth to do, you know. But I told him, I said, but but I said, but guess what? If it doesn't work out, thankfully there are other women out here, you know? Thankfully, very true. So, and it's something that I was telling him because that was my story. You know, so I wasn't giving him a hypothetical, I'm giving him this is there are other people out here, and you know, a lot of times we get caught up into that too. You know, we get we get so caught up into this relationship that if it doesn't work out, we think we can't go on. Why not?

SPEAKER_02 32:04

Yeah, well, that's that's what we see a movie. Yeah, that's what's romanticized. I know I suffered with that. I remember a movie where Warren beat uh Warren Beatty and Natalie Woods. Wood. Yeah. Yeah, I forget the title now, but I think I know the movie you're talking about. I think she went mad when they broke up or something like that, and it was a mess. And for years as a as a young man, I kind of saw myself like that, and that that movie resonated with me. So I understand completely. Yeah. Always love Lorne.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

Love sick, heartbroken, you know, depressed.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

And but the thing is, you know, there are so many people out here. You know, I always tell people the the beautiful thing about love is that it's it's limitless. You know, it's limitless, really. I mean, when you think about it, we think we like to think that, okay, once you got your one true love, whatever that means, you know, if if something happens to that person, I I couldn't possibly love another person. Why not?

SPEAKER_02 33:14

Why couldn't you? If you live long enough and you're open to the life, you find that that theory is refudiated. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 33:23

It is, because people wind up with new partners all the time.

SPEAKER_02 33:31

So here's the deal back to how we give up or we become jaded. When I was going through my cocooning phase, um, I would look at, for instance, celebrity couples in the news and how they broke up with this person. And it's public, that's how we knew about it. I don't know about the neighbor next door or across town that, you know, but the celebrities, it's public news, right? Right. And I would say, man, I don't want to be like that. I don't want to be on a carousel of people. Yeah, I don't want to be with this one and then that one. You know what? I'll just stay by myself.

SPEAKER_03 34:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

But we're human, we need that interaction. We do. Most of us. We do.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

We do. You know, so I I I chose to I gave myself permission to to be, to love someone again, allow them to love me. You know, tell me more, brother. What's that like? I it's great. It's great because the relationship I have now is just if I could describe it in one word, it's it's easy. You know, I don't struggle to be with this person. She doesn't struggle to be with me. Um even though I don't need to be constantly affirmed in this relationship, she does it just naturally. That sounds nice. It's it's wonderful. You know, I mean to have someone who you've had a long-term relationship with look at look at you scathingly versus someone who looks at you lovingly and shows it. Not only that do they say it, but they show it. Right. It it it's it's it's such a contrast, but it's a beautiful contrast. You know, it lets you know that yeah, this thing that we call love is it's really it's a good thing, man. You know, allow yourself, allow yourself to to partake in it if you can. You know, um I have no regrets with that. You know, I have I have no regrets allowing myself to to be back in a loving relationship. You know. Um good for you. Yeah, I mean understatement.

SPEAKER_03 35:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

I mean, again, I don't know what's gonna happen in the future. We don't know, you know. Oh, we do know one thing. Well, yeah, well, there is some that there is something that's inevitable for all of us. It's a physical road boy. It will end. The long time, the light switch will cut off. The light switch will cut off eventually. But while it's on, man, I'm I'm enjoying, I'm enjoying the light. I'm enjoying being in the light of love. And you say it's easy for you.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

It's easy, not that I'm doubting the way I say it, so don't mind. I hear you. It's it's you don't I don't often hear that.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because you know, as you know, I mean, I've been in a relationship that became a struggle.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:28

You know, and the funny thing is when if I'm really being honest, if I think about my marriage, there were some things early on in the marriage, the first couple years that I saw that I ignored. Um, you know, I saw some some some character traits that probably didn't gel with who I was, but I figured, oh, we're married now. So you know, and it's interesting because if I'm being honest, I saw I saw it early on. Um the length of time that me and my partner together have been together now, I have not seen that. And I'm not trying to make this the ideal situation, I'm just being honest. Understood. You know, I have not seen it. That's your perception, so therefore that's your reality, right? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 37:26

Who can say anything else?

SPEAKER_00 37:28

Absolutely, you know. But if I had any advice for anyone who's going through this, a divorce or or a dissolvement of their relationship, again, to allow yourself to once you're ready, right? Once you're ready, allow yourself to love and be loved again.

SPEAKER_03 37:50

There's nothing wrong with it. If that's what you want. You know.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

I'm just shaking my head. The the listeners can't see that, but I'm shaking my head in agreement. Yeah, we have a lot to give. Sometimes the universe, I say, or fate, or some people will name there the one who they believe is the head of their religion.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Right wants to give us something or allow us something nice to experience. And so if you're open to it and then it comes your way, do exactly what you said, embrace it.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

Embrace it. You know, um try not to allow yourself to get jaded, you know. Which can be difficult, you know, but especially, you know, I mean, because everybody goes through degrees of whatever they're going through. Sure. You know, something to me I might think is no big deal to to to you or someone else might be a very big deal. Very true. You know, but I say if if it's something that you want though, and it comes your way, because it often it often does come your way, you know, embrace it.

SPEAKER_02 39:03

As I'm sitting here listening to you repeat that, I remember uh as you know, we're Facebook friends. Right. You know, we're older people, so we use Facebook. Absolutely. I remember the post. Donna made uh she's the caption was something to this effect. When love calls, you better answer. Right. And I think she was paying homage to one of the RB songs of Atlantic Star. Atlantic or You the Music Buff. Who was that? Atlantic Star? In what decade?

SPEAKER_00 39:35

Oh man, that was 70s, 80s. Okay, all right. Yeah, I think late 70s or early 80s, somewhere around that.

SPEAKER_02 39:43

I remember that post.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

Yeah, that was yeah, I remember it too.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

And I thought at the time, and I thought at the time, man, she feels good with him. Good for them. Because it is horrible, that's my turn, to be with someone that doesn't feel good with you, yeah, and that you're not allowed to feel good with.

SPEAKER_03 40:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:06

And it feels like such a drain and waste of energy and life. And then the opposite is as you've as you've described, a whole nother experience. When you can be yourself, not judged for that harshly, accepted, even if you're tolerated if that was if that's what it goes to, but not with disdain. Just the toleration of, hey, we're all human, I'm not them, they're not me.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

But you know what? That's that's my per my person at the moment. That's my people. We're good.

SPEAKER_02 40:42

We'll work it out, we'll figure it out. A whole different experience.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

You know, it's interesting that you bring that particular instance up because speaking of Facebook, you know, I get a lot, you know how you go on Facebook and it gives you memories, memories from the year be the years before. Sure. So I get a lot of Facebook. Older people like that. Well, we like that. Yes, I do. And I remember one time I I saw a Facebook memory, and my ex had posted something about the two of us, you know, and I was the yin and the yang, and she was just really singing my praises. Very good-very poetic. Yeah, and I remember saying to myself, and I was thinking back, I said, wow, this was this was probably six months or or or a year or so before I was told that the marriage is toxic. So what happened in that short time? You know, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

Good question.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

Uh you know, speaking of music, there was a song, an old song. You might remember this group uh called The Escorts.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

They made this song called Not really, even though I'm older than you.

SPEAKER_00 41:47

Yeah, well, it was well, you know, that's my thing, man. They they talked about uh it was it was a song, I think it was called Let's Make Love at Home sometime. And he was just saying how when we're out, when we're out in public, you're fawning over me. Right. But when we're home, you don't want to be bothered. And I was thinking about that post, and I was saying, wow, you know, publicly, you're making it known that this is my guy. I love this guy, you know, the yin and the yang, but but at home, that's not the story. What a juxtaposition. Yeah. But I'm thinking, but when you said bringing up what Donna posted, not only did she make it public, but in private.

SPEAKER_02 42:31

That's the sweet that's the sweet spot.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Right. Like what she said in public, she shows to me in private as well. You know, so that's a big, that's a big, that's a big difference. That's that's a big difference. You know, some people like to make a public yeah, the big you know on stage. On stage with the the spotlight on. Right. But you know, she's just very different. And I'm very appreciative for that. You know, this is someone who we're more uh, you know, whatever evenly yoked means, I mean I mean it's we're more evenly yoked in that respect. And I'm very appreciative of that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 43:14

Well, you've told me this before. I hear you loudly and clearly again. I'm happy for you. And maybe someone out not not out there, someone with us listening, learning together really needs to have heard this. Because before you go through it, you don't know how to get through it. Right, right. But the message is and I'm not putting words in your mouth, my message is you'll get through it if you just keep living and learning and growing. Absolutely. May not be easy, may it definitely won't be, may not be pain free, more than likely not. But there is As they say, the light or a light at the end of that tunnel.

SPEAKER_00 44:04

Absolutely that. Absolutely. One of the most painful things you can experience in a relationship is when someone doesn't want you anymore. Oh, absolutely. It's painful to the ego, it's painful to the soul. Sure. You know, especially when you think about if you were in a relationship where one time you were very much desired by them. At least, at least that was the appearance that you were very much desired by them. You know, and then for that same person to turn their back on you now and don't want to be bothered with you. It's very painful. You know, it's a major disconnect. It's a very major disconnect. But to be in a relationship with somebody who does want you and shows you every day that they want you and they care about you. You know, they desire you, they love you, they care about you, they care about your your welfare.

SPEAKER_03 44:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

It's it kind of helps to minimize that other stuff. You know, you're able to put it in the you're able to put it behind you now.

SPEAKER_02 45:07

Okay, band-aid's always good after you've started bleeding. Absolutely. And then it gives your, you know, the wound time to a chance to heal.

SPEAKER_00 45:16

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 45:17

And be restored.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

And you know what this has done for me, it just lets me know that maybe I'm not a bad person after all. Somebody still wants somebody still wanted to be with me.

SPEAKER_02 45:27

Yeah. But you never were a bad person. You just, in my opinion, were caught in a synergy mix that produced what it produced. Absolutely or couldn't produce what it couldn't produce.

SPEAKER_00 45:41

Yeah, it went as far as it could, you know, but the the beautiful things, I got three beautiful kids out of it. You know, that's wonderful. You know, so I I I can't be, as they say, I can't be mad at it. You know, I could be disappointed at how things turned out.

SPEAKER_03 45:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

However, you know, again, I feel I feel redeemed in the love department. You know. I took a swing at it again, you know, and and and I connect it.

SPEAKER_01 46:10

I like the way you put that. I'm smiling, the folks can't see it, but I I hear you.

unknown 46:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:21

So it's so for anyone who's listening who might be going through this. Uh just know as you said before, there is a light at the end of the tunnel, you know. But if you see it, you know, allow it to allow it to enter your life, you know, because sometimes you might be on the fence. You might say, Well, I don't want what happened before. Guess what? It's a whole different situation. It's a different person.

SPEAKER_02 46:46

Different time.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

Different time.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

You're a different person in many ways. Absolutely. Your body's changed, your mind's changed, maybe your perspectives have changed. That's right. Finances have changed, location has changed. That's right. You know, literal vision has changed. Absolutely. Your mental vision of life has changed.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

Well, I said that before in a way. Um just time for as corny as it sounds, a new beginning. A new beginning.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

Or another beginning. Right, right. Or maybe a continuation of your growth path. Whatever, as long as it feels good, works good, and nobody's being damaged. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 47:34

Absolutely. Absolutely. Don't don't be afraid to jump back in there, as they say. You know, don't be afraid. I mean, there's a reason why there are so many of us on this planet. You know, there's a reason. There are a lot of us. There's a lot of us in this planet. It's a big number. Absolutely, absolutely. And don't let the actions of one condemn everybody else.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

Don't allow that to happen.

SPEAKER_02 48:02

You know, at 61, I can't recall hearing that about the subject matter of love slash romance that lead to intimate relationships. I I I don't think I ever heard that before. Don't let the actions of one what was that?

SPEAKER_01 48:21

Condemn, you know, everyone else.

SPEAKER_00 48:25

You know, don't don't allow it because we're all unique individuals. So whatever happened between you and that person before that that happened between you and that person, don't think it's gonna happen with the next person. You know, it's a different person, like you said, different person, different, different circumstances. Everything is different now, everything has changed.

SPEAKER_03 48:49

You know, so yeah, but that's that's what I wanted to talk about, brother.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

You know?

SPEAKER_02 48:58

So everyone knows um this show or the contents of the show are not scripted. There's usually one or two questions that I will ask, and that is what was your big swing? And can you tell us or would you tell us about it? That's the only part of the show that's scripted, and I'll introduce the show. Um, but that's it. Nothing that anyone says on this show is pre-written, or there are no cue cards. Uh, there's nothing other than someone the contents of someone's mind andor heart, and even that's left open to them which one they want to tap into and share from.

SPEAKER_01 49:45

So you've heard Sabu. I call him Sabu. Um, you heard some of his story, and um I can't add anything to it. Might you like to add anything else to it?

SPEAKER_03 50:03

Uh the only thing I would add is, you know, life is good. You know, you have we're gonna have some challenges.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

You're gonna have some challenges, you know. When you're dealing with people, there's always gonna be some challenges. You know, whether it's a professional relationship or a casual relationship or romantic relationship, there are always challenges.

SPEAKER_03 50:28

However, you know, when you are open to loving someone and they're loving you, you know, just accept it.

SPEAKER_00 50:44

You know, don't push it away if if it if it's working. Because sometimes, especially if we've had negative relationships in the past, sometimes we will find ourselves pushing that person away.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

You know, I've done that many times, and I've spoken about that um publicly. I know what that's like. Yeah, yeah. And we do miss out.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

And he's even as you said it a moment ago, I'm sitting reflecting on how I treat people now that want to treat me well. And I thought of someone in particular that I've been harsh with within the last several months, and I got convicted by what you said. So there's a lesson in this for me, and that was it right there. Remember not to be harsh, not to push away that love that's being offered to you. Because you don't know when and if it's coming around again.

SPEAKER_00 51:45

This is true, this is true, or the quality of it. This is true, and as you mentioned before, we're we're men of a certain age now. I'm 61, almost 62, and I'll be 60 in a few months, God willing. So, you know, more behind than in front.

SPEAKER_02 52:04

So chronologically, yes, biologically, yes, yeah, uh, and everything else, and everything else except maybe growth.

SPEAKER_00 52:13

Growth is unlimited.

SPEAKER_02 52:17

But more, maybe perhaps maybe we're getting ex becoming exponential with the growth. I like to think so. I like to think so.

SPEAKER_00 52:26

Certainly, I like to think so. I do too. I like to think so, particularly if you're open to growing, if you're open to the lessons that life provides you.

SPEAKER_02 52:36

And that may be another episode that we delve where we delve into that, or if you want to delve into it now, but you know, again, there's no script to this.

SPEAKER_01 52:48

Yeah, I, for one, have felt what you said tonight. Storytelling is one of the oldest forms of communication, absolutely, you know, and that's why we're able to talk, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 53:06

One of the reasons and we're able to hear. Because storytelling is so for human beings, so impactful.

SPEAKER_01 53:16

Absolutely. So when someone shares their story, uh someone else can pick up on it, right? That's pretty obvious.

SPEAKER_03 53:29

Yeah.

unknown 53:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:32

My brother, this is all this is uh you're you're in you're leading the way, and I'm just riding along with you.

SPEAKER_00 53:40

Well, you know, the very fact that you even have a program like this is, you know, I for one appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 53:48

You know, we've had this discussion before uh about black men in particular, you know, about things that we hold inside of us that harms us.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

Poison. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I for one am very appreciative that you are offering folks this outlet. You know, it's it's something something that's needed, it's good. It's it's what I like to refer to as good medicine. Okay. Yeah, it's good medicine.

SPEAKER_01 54:26

I think a dose of vulnerability um added with uh a good amount of honesty, a full amount of honesty. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:42

And I'm glad you brought up the the whole question of vulnerability because I I I'll I'll end with this.

SPEAKER_03 54:49

Um of the things that I think torpedoed my marriage was when I did show vulnerability.

SPEAKER_00 55:04

Because I I just I think back to just how certain things were said and treatment was was altered after that. One of the things that my partner Donna said to me that attracted her to so much to me was was my vulnerability, you know. And some women are good with it, some women will punish you for that.

SPEAKER_02 55:32

I would agree given my personal personal experience, and it is based on my perception. Don't know if it's a fact, but it's part of my reality too. To this day, I question myself if and it could be my daughter, could be a female co-worker or anything. Yeah, the question of does she think that I'm weak? Because I just I just demonstrated that I'm human.

SPEAKER_00 56:03

Yeah, that's a good question to ask because if we're being totally honest, some women will hold that against you.

SPEAKER_01 56:15

And that's where they're coming from. Has nothing to do with our vulnerability. At all. At all. As the young people say, period.

SPEAKER_02 56:28

Let's keep it 100. Right, right. Well, man, thank you. Thank you, brother. Are you welcome, folks? Thanks for listening for those of you who did take the time. We're gonna continue to try to not continue to try, we're gonna continue bringing conversations online. And it's simply a matter of who wants to listen when they want to, where they want to, and how they want to. So thank you, my brother Sabu. Another thanks. You can never thank someone too many times, I think. You're welcome, man. Thank you. Appreciate you. All right, brother. Um, might we say goodnight now?

SPEAKER_00 57:18

Absolutely. Good night, all. Um, tomorrow's another day. Make the most of it.

SPEAKER_03 57:27

Good night, folks.