Alt people Real stories
A podcast for the misfits, the makers, and the people who never quite fit the mould. Through raw, unfiltered interviews, this show dives into the lives of those within the alternative community — exploring creativity, subculture, survival, and what it really means to exist outside the mainstream.
Through my work in radio I've discovered a love for hearing stories of people in the alternative community. their strength, courage and what music speaks to their souls. Every person has a story to tell and I'm privileged to be able to share them with you.
Alt people Real stories
A chat with Dan Winter-Bates
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In this episode i had the absolute pleasure of talking all things mental health, music and being a human being in general with Dan Winter-Bates AKA mental health advocate AKA Dan the lead singer of Bury tommorow.
This episode comes wwith a trigger warning as we talk all things mental health. If you find anything triggering please step away and listen when you are ready.
As always if you can like, subscribe, share, it all helps the podcast
Welcome to another episode of All People Real Stories. Now, in this episode, I'm going to be talking to Dan from Berry tomorrow. Now, a few months ago, um I kind of shot my shot, shooted my shot, one of the shot things, um, and dropped him a message to ask if he would talk to me on the podcast if he would come on and have a chat. Um, didn't expect to hear anything back. And pretty much straight away he was like, yes, absolutely. Now, the reason that I wanted to speak to Dan is because he speaks so openly about mental health. And obviously, if you listen to my radio show at 6 pm on a Wednesday night on SG1 Radio and the other episodes of All People, Real Stories, a big baseline of um the episodes are talking to the people behind the music, people behind the businesses and mental health and struggles that everybody has been through because I think it's so important for us to talk about what's in our heads. Now, this community is one of the best communities in the whole entire world, and I will always say that from the rooftop about the alternative community. What I didn't realise when I was going to be speaking to Dan was actually he's so much more than just a lead singer up until this year. He worked tirelessly for the NHS, which we'll hear in this podcast episode. Um I really, really hope you enjoy it. For me, it felt like a therapy session. I was really privileged to sit and extremely grateful that you took the time to speak to me. So if you like what you hear, please do like, please subscribe, all the podcasty things, share with your friends, share on social media because it really does help kind of get those listeners up and kind of helps with the podcast as well. So without further ado, this is a chat with Dan, the lead singer from Burry Tomorrow. This episode does come actually with a trigger warning because there is talks about childhood essay uh from my side and also just kind of talk about eating disorders and things with anything generally mental health. If there's anything that you hear that is triggering that's a bit too much, please do just make sure that you step away because even though this is about talking and um getting the things out there and talking openly and honestly, if it is something that does trigger you, then please do make sure you step away and listen again when you are in a space ready to do so. Hello, you're right. Yeah, I'm good. How are you? Oh, hold on. How do I move these live captions? This is atrocious. Okay, we're done. Hi, thank you so much for today. Okay. Um imposter syndrome is absolutely and utterly kicking my ass right now. So, and I've literally deep dived like every podcast you've been on and interviews and stuff. And um, I thought that I was coming to have a chat with like Dan very tomorrow Instagram handle, but it's not. I'm actually talking to Daniel Winterbait, it's a real life person, um, which means I'm a lot calmer than what I thought I was gonna be. So just thank you so much for that so much. Um, so if I can tell you just a little bit kind of of like not my story, but kind of my background and why I do this and why I think it's just so important, um, even though it scares the absolute crap out of me. Um, so I when I was younger, I was a victim of SA by my stepdad from the age of six to seventeen, and I lived in my head those all those years, all those years. Um I came forward when I was 17. Um, I would say I was one of the lucky ones because it went to court and he was put in prison, and so I kind of thought that would bring closure. Um, what I've come to realise now as like a 40-year-old, um, with kind of mental health, it's not actually I think the trauma that you go through, it's how your brain has learnt to adapt. Um, and when you don't have that trauma, it's literally like your brain has gone, How do I even live life? Like, what do I do? Um so I spent, you know, we're talking six, god, I can't do maths, 11 years, right, in absolute and utter silence. Um I was petrified of anyone finding out what happened, uh, because in my head, my brain had told me it's safer to be quiet because obviously your brain is meant to keep you safe, not happy. Um it told me that anybody would find out that is danger, not what was happening, that's danger. So I learned to say silent after coming forward and talking to more and more people again, as scary as it is, um I've kind of discovered that so many other people have a story, not the same as mine, but you know, a different trauma. A maybe sometimes there's no trauma at all, it's just how their brain is wired. But the one thing that you know, I don't really know if anyone can really recover or anything like that, but I think the one thing that I think makes it easier is talking. So my whole thing of anyone listening to whether it's radio, my writing podcast, is me chatting and whoever I'm speaking to talking about them and their story as well, because there is going to be something that someone out there goes, Oh my god, I feel that way, and you don't feel so alone. So that is that's me, considering I've done a deep dive on you, and I feel like I've just liked no one your background.
SPEAKER_02That is now me. So hi. It's amazing. No, it's um it's a pleasure. Pleasure to do it. I'm always happy to to kind of have a conversation about this kind of stuff. It's something I've kind of done over the years, more extensively, less extensively. You know, it's taken me to some great great people and some great experience shared and all of that kind of stuff. So, you know, I always think it's uh without sounding too like twee about it, like I think it's uh a beautiful thing to turn traumatic experiences into uh support mechanisms for not only other people but for yourself as well, you know. So like I think I think that's important. Um I think it's important that people thank you for your uh courageousness in doing so. Um, because it's not it's not easy, it's not something that I've experienced, certainly not um SA side of things, but I think it's um I know from other people that I've spoken to that it's kind of that waved trauma where it rears its head and it kind of dissipates and it rears its head and it's you know it's a c it's been a constant, I'm sure, at some points, it's been uh kind of regressive at other points, and I think um it's important that people recognise the courage it takes to not only come forward um after something like that happens or occurs or is occurring, but also the courageousness it takes to actually step forward and you know and turn it into something that will not only raise awareness but also help help other people as well as yourself. So thank you, thank you for inviting me on. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00I appreciate that so much, and actually what you've just said about waves, it's so right, because it's the whole thing of like it's oh, we need to heal again, okay. Like there will be something that I hate the word trigger, but it is it kind of it triggers something, and then you're like, oh my god, this comes from there, and you feel like oh my god, I'm never gonna escape this, and then you do the whole thing of oh god, this has made me who I am, and you kind of hate it, but at the same time, it's I look at it now and I think like I I love my life now. Like, yes, there's hard things, yes, it's really difficult. But I wake up every day with a bit of a fire in my belly and a purpose, and so I think, well, maybe if I hadn't gone through that, I wouldn't have that. So it's I guess the whole thing of it's like I always say I'm a victim and a survivor, depending on what day it is. Some days I feel absolutely badass and absolute powerhouse and be like, right, that's it, I can take on the world, and then other days it is, oh my god, what happened to me has made me in the depths again. Um and what I got kind of from listening to you um on various other podcasts is kind of it just seems the same. Um obviously not the same thing, but it's that whole, it's like you feel like you're taking a step forward and doing things and then you get pulled back in again. Um so I kind of want to know kind of how how you deal with that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean it's I suppose it's kind of taking it as it comes sometimes. Like it it I think for a long, long time I I didn't. So I think here I kind of didn't deal with it, you know, and that was one of my major issues. Um, for those people that don't know, I have generalized anxiety disorder, um, depression, OCD, intrusive thoughts, and I've um have eaten disorders throughout my entire life. Like it's just kind of one of those things body dysmorphia kind of joyously, joyously joins me as a piggyback um across my life, and it was pretty bad when I was younger, and um it it kind of lives with me still, I think. But I think for me, like what I did was I suppressed like really, really bad. So I pushed everything down, didn't talk about it, didn't want to talk about it, and that came off the um an incident of um where I was assaulted when I was younger, where I was uh 15 years old, and someone just decided they didn't like how I looked. I was walking my girlfriend to the bus stop at the time, um, my then girlfriend, um, just down the road from the school. I used to live across the road from the school, so I walked past my house, and then they just came across, they had their, then I'm assuming their girlfriend with them. They were like in their 20s, hurling abused, homophobic slurs, all of that kind of usual stuff. Um, and then they came over and they kind of stood in my way, didn't let me pass, and I was like, I don't really know what to kind of do in this situation because I was 15 and I was still in my school uniform by my shirt and my tie. And um, I then kind of asked them what they were doing, like that kind of stuff, and then they um they asked if I wanted a fight. I turned around, and then when I turned back, they'd put on a three-ring knuckle duster and they'd uh they split my nose open. So um and I broke my nose and then I had a cut from there to there, um, where they just had done it. I then stood there, just was like, okay, well, I'm assuming I'm in a fight now. And the guy kind of then looked shocked and then ran. Um, I didn't don't think he realized what he was about to technically do. Um, in realization, like he probably just was trying to start some, yeah, and just vent some anger or whatever repressed issues he had at the time. And I was the kind of catalyst for that. Um, and that kind of then spurred on like a whole massive journey, um, my whole life journey, really, which is not dissimilar from what you were mentioning before, around like how it kind of there is a definition. I don't think it defines you to that or confines you to that prison, but it can define the journey that you go on, which is what it did with me. Um, and I uh I shaved my head, I was really alternative. I used to have long hair, blue black, all of the usual kind of stuff. I had extensions in my hair, and proper proper was going for it. Um, used to love Davy Havoc, still do from AFI, and was like, oh, he's my favourite TikTok. And I followed the zeros because I followed the zeros through like um Art of Drowning, where it had like long devil lock all the way to like Miss Murder era when I had like that was my MySpace handle, it was Miss Murder. Yeah, no, I get it, I get it. My promo used that I had blonde extensions just like his in Miss Murder. Um yeah, but I I I kind of went home, I shaved my head, I like stayed away, like it I needed surgery to fix my nose because it was really bad. He he went to prison um actually um for a bit, and I I remember like the surrealness of it, and I saw him, I've seen him periodically since, and like he's you know very remorseful and regretful about what happened. It also helps that I'm about three inches taller than him now and was a lot bigger than him when he came out of prison. And he I've seen him at a bar, I've seen him at a skate park, like I've seen him uh on a train, like which is mental because like no other person, I don't think, even like friends, I would remember pinpoint moments where I'm like, I saw him again. Yeah, and I remember the lurch of like, oh that's that guy, like that's who it is. Um and like you know, like I don't I don't necessarily look ill-willed on him. Like, I don't look at him and go, like, you're a terrible person. I kind of go, you're a product of so much stuff that goes on for young people and anger and repression and an inability and probably generational ways of dealing with things. Probably his dad dealt with things in that way. If his dad was around and you know, on and on and on the list goes, I don't like it was what it was. Um, so I don't hold any ill will, but that back to your question, like suppressed everything for me. So I never dealt with it. Uh, and then when I was like 26, I went through crisis because I just couldn't deal with the emotions that I was going on. I was on tour, I don't remember being like, I I not happy, and it wasn't even that I wasn't happy with the tour, the shows were great, I was engaged in the shows, but I remember helicoptering over myself, like watching myself go through the motions. And I've had two jobs from all of the time I've been in Bury Tomorrow, joined Bury Tomorrow when I was 16, when I was 18, I joined the NHS, and I I did that up until this year for that long, and both jobs together, touring professionally and rising up the ranks in the NHS, and like so I didn't have time to think, so I was like, I don't have time to do anything, I've got I'd just get on with it, and um and I was really good at masking, and I think some of that potentially is from my like eating disorder, because I was very, very good at uh almost lying and almost lying. I was very, very good at lying, and I was very, very good at or certainly bending the truth and not getting into conversations where people would question what habits I was doing. And so like I think when I um when it came to like masking my own personality, I was I was professional at it at the time, and and then I couldn't. Um I just I just had a a a breakdown, you know, and I I felt like I wanted to tear my skin off and like going through it really badly. I got prescribed SSRIs at the time, which for those people that are on or have tried SSRIs before, like the first six weeks is probably hell for a lot of people, and it was hell for me. And I remember thinking like I can't continue doing this. So what I did was I I made it for a period of time for about three to six months, if maybe up to a year, I like just made it my hobby to learn more about mental health and like CBT and ABT and mindfulness and meditation and just like learning, like massively learning. And I switched jobs at the time. I moved from an acute hospital to a community hospital, and they were all about lived experience and talking about your own journey and building that into the employee into the workplace. Not that the acute wasn't, but it's a very different vibe for those people from hospitals to those that work in community trust. And I remember just being like, I can be me. And I was like, and even like physic, like physically, I didn't have any visible tattoos that you could see. My sleeve was cut off at the at the arm, like I just was very hidden. I didn't really talk about the NHS when I was in the band, I didn't talk about the band when I was in the NHS, and then suddenly it became everything. It was my personality, it was me, and I could talk more about the band, and I could, and then I got loads of visible tattoos, and I was like, Well, okay, I can be me. It was still really hard, yeah, but I was learning, and I think I think for me, like drugs worked. Um, I'm not on anything anymore, but probably should be at times, to be honest with you. Um, and I mean prescribed drugs works, yeah. Um I think um it took the edge off, which gave me the ability to use my brain in a different way, so my brain then could really sit down and learn about the things that are gonna help me at the times that I was well, which is what I say to a lot of people, it's like build up your mechanisms when you feel well, like going to the gym, for example. It's like, hey, I'm gonna you don't you don't build up muscles and then suddenly when you need your muscles, expect them to work, like it, you know, or you don't not build them up, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00No, it's brain training, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Exactly that. If you're gonna go and do a marathon and you've never run before, which is what essentially it feels like when you're going through really low troughs, like you're not gonna suddenly go, well, you know, I'll turn up on the day and have a go at the London marathon. Like it's it you train for it, and I think it's not dissimilar with your brain of being like, How do I react to those things? And even just the fundamentals of understanding yourself. I think for a lot of people it's a really important journey to go on. Be like, hey, I just want to know myself better. Like, what do you want to react? Why do I react to things like that? Why do why does that make me feel that? Like, and I did a lot in like cultural improvement, I still do. Um, and there's a lot about that. Like, what makes you angry? What makes you happy? Who are you most comfortable around? Who aren't you comfortable around? Like, ask yourself those questions about your mental health as well, which is like, why did that make me feel like that? That's interesting. So, yeah, that's the kind of like for me, it's the fundamentals of continuing to recognize why your brain and body, physiologically and mentally, are reacting to something, and that kind of helps because then you can start to define your trigger points and be like, oh okay, that's why I'm feeling like that, or you can just make light of it and be like, Hey, my brain's just doing what it does, and that's that's what I say.
SPEAKER_00My so my eldest son, he's 19, right? And him and his girlfriend have this game of call it, they call it bingo, mum's brain bingo, so they go, Oh, my brain, because I get so so frustrated. So I've kind of I've got OCD and CPTSD and autism and Age HD, so it's like I'm the quadruple threat, right? And but it's that, and I used to take so much shame um onto that. Like, why can't I just be organised? Why can't I just be the organized mum? Why can't I just why can't I just why can't I just? And it was all on me, and the shame was on me. And so trying to keep up of the immaculate house, kids are always on time, this done, this done, this done. And if I dropped a ball somewhere, um it was on me, whereas now it's my brain, my brain. I understand that my brain cannot work the same way as other people's, and that's fine. I don't think anyone, I think we all have that fundamental thing, don't we? So it's really funny. The things that you were saying, again, where we've had completely different experiences, but it's still like everyone's brain goes to the same thing. So where you got attacked, which is just you know, it's just atrocious how one person's decision for whatever they've gone through has then changed the trajectory of your life um and how your brain works. But it seems that you took that shame on you, um, you know, obviously, like where you said, you know, you kind of you changed everything who you are because you felt that who you are is unsafe. Um and it's the whole of being uncomfortable in your own skin. Um, obviously, like where you said with body dysmorphia, I when I was younger, um the only drug I could actually get my hands on was food. Um so I had a food addiction, I went up to like 22 stone, I had weight loss surgery, and actually it was the first thing that it took that drug away from me, cold turkey. Um and I had to deal with my stuff. And it's then that I realised that you need to talk to people, you need to build those coping mechanisms because some coping mechanisms will be working and some won't. Um, and again with the body dysmorphia, I I so I I get it. I you know, I kind of I'll look in the mirror, I might be a bit bloated from Pasta, I know that's what it is, but the second that I look, it's like my brain literally sees me back at 22 Stone, and you can't explain that to say it's it's almost brushed off, isn't it? As a um, oh my god, no, you don't. Oh my god, don't be silly, don't be silly, and it's just it's such a hard thing to be able to get your head around, but it's having those honest conversations, isn't it? It's having people that you can go, dude, I'm feeling like this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I do like you said like a couple of things there that like what all of it like I resonate with, but there's a couple of things like I I think like your perceptions of how you feel as like a mom or like how you feel in your kind of professional space or like personal space, whatever, like I think is a really, really common thing, and I think the problem with like depreciated mental health or those that have been diagnosed with certain things or neurodiversity or all of those kind of things, like it immediately categorizes us, right? And so what then happens is the brain's a really funny thing because it essentially, when you're not feeling great, certainly with like low mood or anxiety, it will make you feel like you're the only person that's that's experienced that. Yeah, and it's like a it's a re it's a it happens all the time. Loads of people kind of go through that like nobody could have ever felt like this, I'm on my own. Like, and some people are like, so I'm not like negating obviously that the experience. Of some people are everybody has their own kind of makeup, right? And everyone has the way their brain fires, whether that is on a neurodiversity spectrum, whether that's on a mental illness spectrum, or whether that's just kind of life and experience and all of those things. But what we tend to do is we look at the archetype, right? And this perceptual archetype. And this is where society and media and all of this stuff plays in, right? Because it doesn't give you, I think it can exacerbate. Lots of people blame social media for mental health. I think it exacerbates it, no doubt about it. Um, and I think the processing time that young people go through now, and we say young people, we're all on social media, so it's not just young people, everyone has a form of media that they consume. It's just the immediacy of social media that there's lots of psychology.
SPEAKER_00You don't get to process it.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. They're asking questions about it because the human brain was never designed in that way and to process information that quickly, but it is, it's adapting. That's just nature. We adapt. And but I think it's a really interesting thing because we look at this archetype of like that's the perfect body, that's the perfect relationship, that's the perfect job, that's the perfect life. And we view everyone, even if they've never given us or people in general, the norm, even if they've never given us that signal that they have that perfect life. Take away social media now. Like, let's just say you're walking down the street and you see a couple holding hands, and people might have gone through their own kind of journey going through whatever with relationships and holding relationships or being in poor relationships or whatever, got out of toxic relationships or in toxic relationships, whatever it might be. And you'll immediately they'll go, Oh, they're holding hands, they love each other. That's that's the archetype, that's what they should be, even though we know nothing about those individuals whatsoever. And it's the same with mental health. We'll go, oh, you know, that person's got it all together, like they've got a high-powered job, and they why don't they go through the same things that I go through? And it's like I did a thing with imposter syndrome where I did a talk on it because I looked at what's well, I looked at the works of Valerie Young, who is an amazing person for imposter syndrome. And you talk a lot about like the affinity within imposter syndrome. So there's a multiple types of imposter syndrome, it's not just one. We homogenize it a lot, but it's not just one, it's different types, seven different types, um, or eight different types of imposter syndrome. And I did like a talk about it in front of like 80 to 100 people. These are like anywhere from people that are just starting the NHS, administrative assistants, kind of domestic staff, all the way to professors, CEO, like surgeons, all of that kind of stuff. And by the time I'd get got to the end of like the types of imposter syndrome, I asked people to put their hands up, but I asked them to put their hands up with their eyes closed. And because I didn't want people to be signaled about who's doing it, and they all put their hands up, and everyone put their hands up. There's about two or three people that were like, I don't really have affinity to that, and that's fine. But it was a really interesting moment when they all opened their eyes and they were like, Oh my god, like, well, you're not imposters then. And the problem is the imposter brain goes, Yeah, but you don't know how it feels to be this imposter, and on and on the list goes. But the reason why I kind of mentioned that is like we are all we are all insecure in a way, we are all anxious in a way, we all have anxious moments. That doesn't mean everybody has anxiety, that's a very different thing. But the insecurities that life and society and archetypes has put on us really does infest the brain when it comes to things like, oh, that's what it looks like to have a perfect life or perfect ex, whatever it might be. Um, and I think it's interesting, it's probably something I don't know, there's probably studies around it, around things like tribal kind of mindset of like one of the strongest, want to go, you know, like looking at others and perceiving danger, as you said, or perceiving joy or whatever it might be. Like it's so it's an interesting concept.
SPEAKER_00So it's how our brains generalize, isn't it? It's like you know, if you're reading a sentence and it's kind of like it doesn't read every individual letter, it just kind of goes right at that, so we can work in the background, right? So then our brain has just learned that well, we generalise this, we generalise this, it's because it's saving space, isn't it? It's trying to make room for other things. But the thing that the downside of that programming, so I I have to look at my brain like a programme because if I look at it like a programme, they'd be like, right, I can hack it, I can file it, I can do this, I could do that, and then again, when it's not working and it's not working as it should, my brain isn't going, you're a failure, you're this. Um, but the same thing you just said, it's funny that with with the imposter syndrome, I wonder if, like obviously, we all wear masks, it's part of human nature, you know. You you're not gonna talk to, I don't know, you're not gonna talk to a friend the same way that maybe you would talk to a school teacher, you're not gonna talk to your parents the same way that you talk to a friend and X, Y, and Z. So we all put on that kind of it's those social cues, isn't it? But do you think, like obviously, when I look back at say how I dealt with stuff, is that I just wear masks all the time, and it's kind of like I learnt to curate a personality for each individual individual person I was talking to because it was so desperate just to be like and accepted, and and again, like you said, I think it goes back to kind of tribal things, you know, if you're thrown out of the tribe, it's it's instant death. So it's a it's that primitive thing. So, do you think sometimes when we wear like so many different masks in dealing with our mental health, it gets to the point when you start finding the thing that is oh my god, this is what I'm meant to be doing, this is this is what sets my soul on fire for me. It is this, but I remember I was I mean, it was a few weeks ago, I was at Outbreak Festival and I was backstage and I was talking to Dallas Green, right? And Dallas Green has literally has been like that voice is carried me through so much. Um, you know, Sunday mornings, I'm kind of pancakes, and my kids know all the words to see in kind of Alexa's on fire, and I'm talking to Dallas Green, and the whole time I just kept feeling like I don't belong here, like I shouldn't be here. Like, what am I doing here? Like that that person over there, you know, like Danny Danny Peacarter. I'm like, oh yeah, look, he's over there. That's a proper radio DJ, that's that's that, and I wonder if it's all the masks that we've put on to survive because it's what it is to survive. When we're doing something that is generally us, we have that whole thing of they're still gonna think I'm a fraud even though I'm not, even though this is what I want to be doing. Do you think that's part somewhere part of it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I do. I think I think there's always situations that um it's really important to kind of ground yourself in, like, and you know, and and be like, hey, but I am here. So one of the kind of battles with imposter syndrome and stuff like that is the kind of so what box in the brain of being like, so what? So what? If you've if you've frauded your whole way to be in backstage at Outbreak Festival, and you've frauded your way to speaking to someone like Dallas Green, who probably is like, hey, this is a really cool conversation, like perceptually, like he's he wouldn't be thinking the same things because he won't view himself in the same light as anybody else will view him, and you're you're viewing yourself in that way, so what? You're still there, you're still in that moment, you're still having that experience. So, so what? So, and this is what Valerie Young says, like she says it about jobs, so she's like, Oh, so what? You've frauded your entire career, you're now at like the top position at a CEO in a company. So what doesn't that show more about actually through all of the if you were to buy into it, right? And sometimes you do have to dive into the fire a bit and examine what things as well. I mentioned before of like what things are coming up to you. Like, if you're like all of that stuff is true, right? Let's say it all is true, it's not, but let's say it all is true, you're still there having a really good, meaningful conversation with somebody. So all the perception stuff can dissipate because it makes no difference to the situation that you're in. I think things with imposter syndrome also need to be really careful with sometimes because of societal pressure, right? And so go figure, women get more imposter syndrome than men. I wonder why. Well, an entire society that has belittled, belligerently belittled women, has not given them the opportunities and still continues to not do so, to reduce rights, to continue to discriminate against, have continued to do that over as long as existence exists, and even more so nowadays. Um, and go figure why somebody who has been successful in a career or experience or whatever as a woman feels uh as a fraud. I wonder why. And it and it's the same when we got when you add on characteristics like um ability-based characteristics, when you add on um protect characteristics around ethnicity, uh, faith and religion, all of these kind of things, they play in. And then when you intersect those things, it gets even worse. And we have to be really careful sometimes in organizations and in in life in general, not to just align imposter syndrome to a situation, because sometimes that situation is very real, and it's other and the experience that on someone. Um, and so I think it's such a fascinating thing, imposter, I think, because arguably as well, so many people go through that feeling of fraudulence, and I think it's because we don't practice mindfulness and gratitude in the moment, right? And we're not, as I said before, like the the mere existence, one of the things that I went, I went super existential, really weirdly. Like, I'm not an overtly spiritual human being. I say I'm more spiritual than religious, I don't, I don't have any um belief in a in a god, a deity either. I don't have that. Um, other people do more power to them. Um, and who knows? I don't know, don't have the answer. So, but for me, like the spiritualistic is more the existential kind of bit, which is like we are miracles walking when all is said and done. Take the money issues, the family issues, the friends issues, the work issues, the the experiences that we've had, the experiences that we're going to have, take all of that out of it, right? We are a speck on the back of a bloody herd of mammoth floating through the the the like this ever-expanding madness that we're trying to make sense of, right? You're nothing. And in some times, for some people, we're like, oh my god, that makes me feel awful. Like, I'm I'm this, I'm nothing.
SPEAKER_01So who cares what I do?
SPEAKER_02Exactly that. So, like when we're in this situation where a group of molecules and carbon and water and blood and bone is talking to somebody like Dallas Green, who is also carbon, blood, bone, miracles walking, are having a conversation with each other, whilst also being in a tapestry of molecules and particles and atoms all together. Because if you think about life, right, you're pushing through atoms. The air that you are in is atoms and and it's molecules and it's whatever. So you're a tapestry talking to each other on a you you have now created a perception that this individual is the most important person, blah blah blah, all of that. But if you but when you step back from it, you can then appreciate why it is that you're speaking to him, why it is that you have a feeling, because it's not taking away from that that the music that Dallas Green has produced, and it's not all about Dallas Green, but I also really like Dallas, and I and I had the pleasure of chatting to him at um Festival We Play Global Existers. Um, but it's more about you can now appreciate, take all the insecurities out of it, why he matters to you. So now it's personalized, not perceptualized. So it's personalized. He matters to you because of the experiences that you've had with your kids and when you were younger, and like listening to the albums, and and that is a beautiful moment to show appreciation to that individual, right? And be like, hey, like you matter to me, and now you can take that with you and be like, take all the other balls out of it. Isn't that really cool that you could have that moment and you can now hold it as a positive memory, not uh oh my god, I shouldn't be here. Because what we tend to do in moments is we'll negate the moment itself when we're in it, and then when you get past it, you're like, Oh, I wish I'd have been like X. I wish I was like this, and it's like you were what you were.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm so glad that you said that because it was a it's I have this thing, and again, I think it goes back again, like kind of being a woman. Like, I am I'm also a hairdresser, right? And I I love it. I'm an alternative hairdresser, so I literally just have the coolest people in my chair. I love it, I could be creative, it's I love it, right? And it's a obviously the hairdressing industry, it is it is built up from females, it is built up from you know, working class to whatever, but you go to I will never go to any awards because you go to awards, it is 95% men who win. Um, you have a look at um you go into a shop and shampoo and conditioner, John Frieda, don't know, Joe Bloggs, whatever, it's men's names, not women. So I see it in the hairdressing industry, and we kind of just go, it is what it is, whatever, you know. And it's really funny that in this job that I'm in, I've you know, there's been a few times, like you know, um uh what worked Sam Dunk, uh, I think it was last year, okay, and security got my press pass, got my badge, whatever. Men you had the same in in me, I got stopped. Um as if it's kind of uh I don't know, I'm trying to sneak backstage, whatever. And I guess it's those experiences that build up. But one of the things of going to Outbreak that I was so wary, and I think those experiences have built up and built up that I have to be professional. So in my head, this is professional, this is I put on, I put on radio presenter hat, I am music journalist hat, this is the hat that I'm gonna put on. So being in front of Dallas Green was a I could go one way or the other. It could literally be not cold, but very kind of you know, just kind of say the thing, and I didn't. I literally I was like, Do you know what? I feel like a sem I'm a 40-year-old woman, but I feel like a 17-year-old girl standing in front of you right now, it's a bit like Notting Hill, like standing in front of you right now. I just want to say thank you for everything, kind of just waffled everything. And I remember this feeling in my belly, you know, that feeling in your belly where you're like, you're in trouble, you've messed up, you've you've been found out that you're not professional. And he just stopped and he just went, you know what? He goes, Music is too way, I couldn't do this without you, so thank you. And I think that was the first time in this job that I think I was actually not vulnerable, but I took off the Radio Presenter hat and was V. I was Verity standing in front, and that kind of goes into something I heard that you say where you kind of you know, working in the NHS, you know, in Berry Tomorrow, everything that you do, you said that you had all these different hats that you'd put on, and it was like the second you kind of merged them together, like how did you do that? Like, what was there a moment? What what was it that you were just like, this is it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, it's hard to like pinpoint it because I think it's always a journey. I'm still doing it, to be honest. Like, it sounds very like well when you're like, Oh, life's a journey, like but it's it is though, it's and it's we're always like, I'm not gonna sit here and preach about how incredibly like amazing I am at like melding all of these things together, and haven't I got my life on on absolute luck when I go to the gym like yesterday and was like I'm having a meltdown because of how I look and I don't and I don't like that, like you know, so I haven't got it together. I think the the bit for me, and and equally, like you know, I've just left the NHS, I've started consultancy for organizations on culture, and like again, like the amount that's reared its head, like I was at a very, very senior position within the NHS. Um, and I've stepped away from that for various reasons. I never wanted to. I loved the NHS, I would continue to work for it until I died, like, or until it dies, unfortunately. And I think for me, like the click really was seeing the interplays between the different parts of my life and the positives that could be when I melded all that together. And like the big thing for me is that I I just wanted to make a difference, as simple as that sounds. Uh I wanted to make a difference, I wanted to use the skills that I gained from touring since I was 16 years old to now, seeing the world before I was like 20, like you know, and and now seeing even more of the world even now, like now I'm in my 30s, like mid-30s, um, to get to a point like, and then all the experience that I've had in the NHS, like working with patients and working in operations management and working in like quality improvement, like the science behind improvement, working in culture, working in inclusion, working in organizational development, like the list, the list, the list. Like, and I the the biggest things that drove purpose, and this is a big thing that I try and teach people in organizations, uh certainly as an organizational level leadership body, and then individuals is like find your purpose, right? Come at it with finding your purpose. And I don't mean like I want this job that's different. Your purpose, what drives you, your beliefs, your value system. Like, what is it that makes you you, right? And then what organizations can do is they can bridge all of those and go, what's our shared purpose then? So what's our business vision? What's my personal values and beliefs? What's our what's our shared bit? What's gonna get people going? And I think for me that was the click because I was like, wow, I can just help people, like, and I know people, I love people, right? And I love, which is weird because I'm a very like usually naturally introverted person. Same but I I love people dynamics. It's a really interesting thing for me, like because I I watch and I like listen and I and I find people fascinating. I find what drives people fascinating, and I go all the way back to the assault when I was 15 years old and still a year later, two years later, sat going, isn't that really interesting why that happened? Not I hate him, he's a horrible person, blah blah blah. But like, and I remember when I've been 17 and going, that's really interesting. I wonder what his upbringing was like, and I wonder la la la la la what list goes on. And so that is a value base for me to be interested about what people, how people act, how why people do the things that they do. I've always had a fascinating yeah, and I've always had a curiosity about diversity and difference and seeing the beauty of that, and I've also had curiosity about you know the atrocious things that human nature does. Like I'd massively into things like true crime and prison documentaries and stuff like that, because I find the human dynamic and the dichotomy of the man, like such an or man and woman.
SPEAKER_01No, I know what you mean.
SPEAKER_02Um and they then um and I think for me, like it was uh I always find that such a such an interesting dynamic, right? And if you can be curious about it, and you can be compassionately curious about it, it opens up such a opportunity for growth, it removes it from you, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_00It brains want to take everything as I want to control the situation, so I'm gonna take it personally, I'm gonna personalize it, and then I can deal with it. But actually, that's it's it doesn't work like that. Like kind of my you know, it was like my abuser. I you know, it was really weird. I never I hated him at the time, I absolutely hated him at the time, and everything like that when I was in it, and then afterwards, you know, I remember a moment my nan saying to me, like, you know, well, I'm trying to find it in my heart to forgive him, but I can't, and in my head, I just kind of was like, I don't need to forgive, I don't need to. I just I just remember just thinking like what happened to him, and it's really weird. I've always had that, and I've always thought with this, oh maybe I should be angry, maybe I should, and I've never it's weird. I like like you said, like you know, there was a couple of times that I'd seen him or a family member after he got out of prison, and it's that feeling of I can remember exactly when, where, everything like that. But it's never been a it's never been I hate you, I have to find it in my heart to forgive you. It's a it's a why, and it's really funny. It's that question why, that curiosity is the question that's almost so trying to kind of pushed out of children, you know, like it's at schools they can't, you know, can't question things, can't say things. It's it's that, and I think it's that why that curiosity is like it doesn't give you that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean commute compassionate curiosity is the antithesis of discrimination. I've said this in like in a while before like because uh if you're compassionately curious about something, so tell Like protective characteristics as a whole, right? And you take kind of gender identity or gender reassignment as a protective characteristic, but gender identity in general, right? Which is in the news a horrifically disproportionate amount of times as it should be. But like the level of like assumption, um level of misinformation for potentially, let's take the trans community specifically, um, make up 0.01 or 0.1%, I can't remember exactly what, of population in general. And it's in the news all the time, right? Negative, negative, negative, negative, negative, sparking the fire, stoking the issues, all of that kind of stuff. It's exactly the same issue that we have with um asylum seekers in the news, in the news, in the news, in the news, make up a percentile of the population, right? And you go through the list of protective characteristics and you kind of sit there and go, like, if you were just curious about it, if you asked, and the problem is you've got this spectrum, right? You've got people that don't care, they're bigoted, right? They're people that if it's not what they know, what they perceive as normal, yeah. I'm and it's not even just like I'm not into it, it's like I'm vehemently angry about it.
SPEAKER_00The opposite for me, I must eradicate you, you've got to be God, yeah, because then I feel better.
SPEAKER_02That's a bit like they're the people that I'm like the most like question marks appear in my brain, where I'm just like, you wake up so mad and angry about the world. Like, why do you care? Like, and then you've got and then the spectrum starts to come back, right? So you've got people that are kind of moves into like a space of indifference or apathy about the situation. Oh, why do we ought to hear about it all the time? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That I'm still buying the papers that continue to talk about it, so I'm perpetuating the media, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you move into like a certain level of like, oh, I just want people to be happy. I don't want any trouble, like blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you're kind of moving over to like, oh, I want to help, but like, I don't know how to help, or I don't want to get it wrong, and blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you're moving into like, hey, like, I want to be can inclusive and I want to be active in my inclusion and all of that kind of stuff, right? And that's the spectrum that people sit on. Disgracefully optimistic, I think most people sit the most of general um societies sit in this kind of middle bit where it's kind of like some people are apathetic towards the situation. A lot of people genuinely, I think, want like just to go through life, not have any issues, and move on. Like, problem is when people are grabbed and they're told, oh, this is what's causing your issues, that's when we start having the issues that we've got at the moment, where people are viewing scapegoated parts of marginalized communities or marginalized groups, like trans, non-binary, um, ethnic minority, um, asylum seekers, like all of you know, these individuals as the big problem for the major systemic issues. They're not the big problem, they're not close to being the big problem, they are no problem. However, we society loves to do that. That's like a thing. And so, where we go then through this kind of cycle is going like, oh well, like I can't be curious about that because that means that I'm gonna get cancelled, or that means that someone's gonna come at me. Yeah, which for all of those communities, and I have worked with like many of the voluntary and charity organizations that represent different parts of marginalized um communities or you know, uh minoritized whatever however you want to put it. And I would say a hundred percent of them will go, just ask a question. If in doubt, just ask us, you know, okay, what are your preferred pronouns? Easy, super easy way of doing it. Okay, you know, um, what is the experience of someone coming to this country? You know, you know, maybe on a boat or in the back of a lorry. Like, what's the experience of that? What drove people to do that, you know, and oh you want to work? Oh, okay, cool. Well, that's gonna benefit our society because you've got more people paying taxes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all of these things. Like, but the the art of dialogue is just is just dying. It's like, and equally the art of expertise is also dying. So you've got these two things that are happening at the same time where people are not wanting to have a conversation with someone and change their opinion, yeah. And and that goes for both sides. When when you have activism with left and right, you start to come back to the middle sometimes, and you're like, oh, both being discriminative.
SPEAKER_00You'd kind of get to the point of no, I'm right, I'm right. Oh no, this is right, this is the way it should be, you're wrong.
SPEAKER_02And this is the risk, this is a real risk. Like, I I say more power, call out racism, call out homophobia, call out transphobia, like call out ableism, call out sexism, like all of it, call out, like just hammer them. Like, hammer people that do that. However, like when it comes to misinformation, misterminology, we have all been on a journey and continue to go on a journey, right? The arrogance of coming round the loop and going, I've got nothing else to learn about society. I'm telling you now, even if you picked up the nine protective characteristics that a lot of people don't even know there are nine in the UK Equality Act. Um, nine protective characteristics, or even what they are, what constitutes indirect, direct discrimination, harassment, and victimization, which is the Equality Act. Most people don't know that, majority of people. Yet you'll get to this point where I'm an activist, I'm an activist. You're an activist on the things that you've chosen to be an activist about. More power to you. Just be very, very careful to not assume that you've also gone on a journey and you will continue to go on a journey because there are things that you don't know, right? And this is why it's about justice for all, liberation for all. Like, let's push equality. Equality, the direct inclusion for groups that have been discriminated or continue to be discriminated against is not a regression of rights for others, right? And never is it that.
SPEAKER_00No, that's it, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02White Lives Matter is not. You know, International Women's Day. White Lives Matter.
SPEAKER_00Right, International Women's Day, then there's always a post of somebody going, What about Man's Day? What about it?
SPEAKER_02I'll give you, I'll give you the like the clear, the clear in our like generation, right? The clear examples of where where it's just rears its head really quickly. There are two really major ones, I think. There's lots and lots and lots, and the cases obviously that have happened are only a fragment of the bigger picture of how bad this is. But you've got obviously what happened to George Floyd murdered.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Murdered in the street by a public official, right? And so by the law. And Black Lives Matter was reignited. It wasn't started there, it was reignited there. And obviously, a lot of people were saying, well, actually, there are hundreds and hundreds of thousands of cases like this where someone from a black, ethnic minority background, however, somebody that wasn't white essentially, has been murdered and no one's done anything about it in custody. There is a disproportionate amount of people that are arrested and put in prison. That happens in the UK as well as America. It's not all this sitcom of America that goes on. It happens. And the call was black lives matter until they matter, because it continues to happen through the segregation, through discrimination, through all of what happened in the past that people view as this like dystopian past. No, this is what continues to happen now for so many people. And so the call is to continue to protest and drive for rights and drive for um the appropriate uh defunding of police to make a funded policing force that is better, you know. And there's that age-old thing of like um about the houses that are on fire. Loads of people have sampled it to be fair in music before, but like it's the thing of like if a fire, if one house in a terrace uh block was on fire, would you immediately go to the end terrace house, the opposite to that fire, and then just put water all over things? No, you're going to tackle the fire that is going on, what these protests do. The other case that happened, which is at the UK, with Sarah Everard. Sarah Everard was murdered by a police officer that was known by the Met police as somebody that was previously been charged with stalking and harassment. This is a somebody that is now still employment, who stalked and murdered Sarah Everard. Immediately it came out blue lives matter, not all men, right? And what this is born from is religion. It's born from a feeling of shame, I think. Um where it's born from this sting that you get, right? When people talk about colonialism and slavery, and they talk about cases like what I've just mentioned, they talk about like misogynistic behaviors, they talk about heterosexual cis individuals and their bigotry towards um those that sit in the LGBTQI plus community, like it it creates this visceral feeling, yeah, where it's like I'm part of that, like I'm part of that group, and this immediacy, which is kind of human nature of being like, oh, it's not me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, go do it's not me, don't throw me out the tribe, thank you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, don't brand just me with that thing. And the the key to all of this is like is taking it, like feeling the emotion and being like, you know what, like okay, I'm feeling something, but what am I doing in my life that is changing the script, right? And and don't feel the sting in yourself, feel the burning passion of the experience that's going on because I don't know what it feels like to not be a white British heterosexual male. I I don't I don't know what it feels like. No, so why am I gonna sit and assume that I do and sit on this like pillar of like, oh well, no, I'm not like that, or I don't know that doesn't happen. If you just do this, no, and so it's I think life is such an interesting, and again, like back to like the mental health side of things, it's like it's people are trying to like smooth the edges so much, right? And I said this to someone the other day, which is like there's this bit in the middle, which is life and growth is born by friction, yeah. Like you can't grow without friction, right? Grow in pain. And what we're trying to do is experience positive, negative. Life goes like this, right? Oh, these are positives and negatives, and what we're trying to do is squish all that and be like, there's no tension, like we don't need to talk about that, everything's fine, we don't discriminate against people, and organizations do it, but also individuals do it. And life is about friction and experiences and being like, oh, that worked, or oh, that didn't work, or and I'm not saying go out there and start launching into you know, regaling what you think you know about like different protected characteristics or characteristics when you're gonna get it wrong, but do a bit of research.
SPEAKER_00Like if a feeling comes up and a thought comes up, then okay, let's again you go into it with kind of the why, with kind of you know, like curiosity, like and there's something I think one of the main things I think that I don't want to say again, I think we're never healed, we're never like recovered, because it's our brain, our brain is always changing. I I do think there's been a massive kind of I think it's one of the biggest stigmas around with mental health is that it's something's happened, you you know, you're sad because that's the only thing that's kind of there, you're sad, or you know, when depression is oh god, I would so much rather be sad than depressed. Do you know what I mean? It's you have this and then you you do all the things put in place and then you heal. And it's not that like you said, it is that because it's life. But I've I think one of the biggest things I've learned is when I've kind of got down here, when I'm down here, even though it's it's it's horrible, it is it is atrocious, there is still this part of my brain from up here who goes, okay, so why are we feeling like this? Okay, what can we do? What is the sometimes one day at a time is is too much. So, okay, so what is the next thing? What is the next thing we're gonna do? And it is again, it is going that that ups and that downs. So if there's anyone listening now, which there will be, um, who is really, really struggling with their mental health, and they just heard everything that we taught talked about. And I guess it's probably gonna be quite overwhelming for somebody who's kind of you might people might have like listened to a few health self-help podcasts, books, or whatever. But kind of I think listening to everything we talked about, it can probably be quite overwhelming for somebody who's not really kind of at a deep dive on their own brain. What kind of advice would you give them, or signposts would you give them of just where even to start or where even to start talking? What would your advice be?
SPEAKER_02I think that's it. Like, as loose as it sounds, like obviously, you know, I'm not a mental health practitioner, like there are people that are exceptionally skilled um in the understanding of what is happening in the brain and the trigger points and the different things. So, first thing that I'll always do is kind of caveat and be like, look, like all I can talk about is from my own experience. Like, I can't talk about it from a medicalized perspective, from a holistic perspective. Like, I can just say what worked for me, and I think um the talking about it bit is really key because it's normalizing, vocalizing something that's happening in your brain, yeah. Which, whether that's writing it down, say vocalizing, it can be writing it down and journaling, it can be kind of doing stuff online, like trying to raise awareness, like because sometimes that kind of creates connections, which are really helpful. On the flip side of that, just be very, very careful because sometimes it can also create kind of echo chambers of negativity, which I've been in it before, where it's all terrible and horrible and and there's no way out, and that can be quite damaging for people. It can be cathartic sometimes, and it definitely serves a purpose to be like, Isn't this mental? I can't believe this. This happens to all of us, and we all feel like this. But like, I think it's just being really mindful of the places that you choose to spend your energy because you've only got a finite amount of energy, and like spending energy only uh talking about how hard it is and poor it is, and isn't it awful, will only ever be able to feel cathartic as the most positive. Yeah, like what it's not gonna do is take you out of that and be like, what can you build? What can you do? What can you construct? What's causing it? Like, ask yourself some kind of fundamental questions. And if you don't have the answers to it, create safe um conversations with people that will offer you that space and time to do that. It's not necessarily give you the advice because most people that go through mental health are like, I don't want someone to tell me to do that.
SPEAKER_00Advice is only from somebody else's lived experience, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02So you have to be very careful because we're all seeking the answer, the golden answer to this. I can there is no golden answer to it. It's horrible as it says, there is no golden answer. Sometimes people find things at work and it regulates things and it's sorted. Like, and that is it happens, like but for a lot of people, it's about the adjustments that happen in life and knowing yourself better. Yeah, whether that's through having medication or therapy or um any of the like the different therapy bases, C B T, A, B, T, those kind of things, kind of things about dealing with trauma and PTSD and stuff like that. Uh whether it's um about recognizing the nuances of neurodiversity and the differences that that it is, but also again, the positive reframing of this sometimes, not all the time, you can't positively frame everything, but there are positive reframes that you can say, isn't that incredible that my brain fires in that way? And it's annoying there, but also it does that for me, and that's really interesting. And I think the more people can kind of examine themselves safely, um, because when you're down or up, whichever on side of the kind of spectrum you are on, like it's really, really hard to do that. It's at times where you feel a little bit at peace, just go, right? Who am I? What am I here to do? Yeah, why do I react in the way that I react? What are the things that give me energy? What are the things that take my energy away? And even just starting there can be really helpful for people, I think, sometimes. Um, and then it's about talking with the professionals that are out there that really do get it on a science-based, medicalized base, holistic base, like whatever it is that can kind of if there is a transition point that you need to get out of or you need to move past, they can help you with that transition point. Um, because sometimes things just rear their head, and sometimes it's a situation or environment that people are in is the is the cause of it. It might be a toxic relationship, a toxic family situation, uh a trauma-based incident, like and work and you know, financial situation, all of those things play into this massively. Um, it doesn't always cause it, it can cause it, and it can or like sustain things, and it can life, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Life is gonna happen to you. Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_02Some people are more susceptible to it, you know, and like um I'm wired differently to some people, like, and that's okay. Like, we're all wired differently. My brain just is anxious about being anxious.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, my brain, when when there is safety and everything is great and there is nothing to worry about. Oh god, my brain is atrocious. Yeah, give give me give me something to worry about, say genuinely that I could do that. Oh my god, I'm thriving. Like, that's it.
SPEAKER_02So I just say I I think for me, like the the the remembering that talking about it is an active like thing, that's the big thing. Like, do do the work like on yourself, like and you will it will reap benefits, like undoubtedly. Like, but be kind to yourself if if getting out of bed in the morning is better than what it was yesterday or the week before, or going to work today when you didn't want to go or you didn't go like before, or having an incident that happens in your life or a situation that usually would make you XYZ, then and it didn't this time, like that, or you reacted differently, like these are all moments that pass you by in life, yeah. But you lose an element of gratitude to be like, wow, oh okay.
SPEAKER_00I was about to say that it's it's you see everywhere, kind of like I am a massive fan of journaling. I have always done it because I just get it off out of my brain, but I never understood why it worked, and it's the same with gratitude. You're told all on social media, like, gratitude, preach gratitude, you know, say your gratitude if you don't know why, but it's because our brains do forget the wins, our brains do forget the good things because it's kind of again wired to kind of look for the danger or whatever, especially when you do have anxiety, when you do have anything else that's going on, it is wired to look for danger, for worry, you know, it to look for those patterns. Whereas the more that you write down what you're grateful for, those little wins, everything like that, it kind of starts your brain, then starts to look for those that bit more again to fix it, you know. It's anxiety is is atrocious because the only way to kind of feel a bit a little bit better is to face the thing that you're anxiety, anxious about. But if you don't even know what you're anxious about, yeah, it's just life. So I think it's I think like I just realised it's been an hour, so I just appreciate you um so much. I think as well, I think what I've taken away from this is obviously I thought I was gonna be talking to you all about music and everything today, and actually I'm really, really glad that this was the conversation that we had. Um, and I just think you must have helped so many people in the past how many years that you've worked in the NHS. Um, I have family members who work at the NHS. I used to be a dental nurse in the NHS, so I and you know, and just thank you so much for all of that. And obviously everything you do with Bury Tomorrow as well, kind of you know, it's that whole they'll say again that you said when I was deep diving, um, about that you see it like as your job, but it's that whole thing is who you are, it's they're intertwined, and if someone comes up to talk to you, you're not just gonna brush them off, it's your job to talk to them.
SPEAKER_02And yeah, and it's I just like life is is too weird to make it weirder by putting people on pedestals. Do you know what I mean? Like someone someone in Tesco's taps me on the shoulder and says they're like my band, like what a weird reaction to be like, Oh, don't talk to me. So, like, why would I do it in any scenario?
SPEAKER_00Like, it I want that on a t-shirt. Life is too weird to make it weirder by putting people on pedestals. This is amazing.
SPEAKER_02It's so odd, like, and so the message to anybody that wants to have a chat or reach out, or you know, obviously things are difficult sometimes, right? And things are key, and all of like life's mental, but like if it's like you see me around and you want to talk, like I'm never not gonna stop for someone. Like, it's like it just is it I think it's just a crazy mentality to think that my existence is more important than anybody else's. Like it we're all we're all on this together, and I'm just lucky and privileged enough to be able to be in a position of influence that very tomorrow is, and that's awesome. Like, I I love that.
SPEAKER_00And it's a responsibility that comes about.
SPEAKER_02And I try my best to to live by that, you know, responsibility and and try and do what I can. Like I'm not perfect. I'll say things that are wrong. But my my commitment is to continue to grow and learn and not be offended when someone's like, Hey, can you do that? or think about it from this perspective. Like, I love that. Like, so please do like challenge me to do it better, you know.
SPEAKER_00That's amazing. Thank you so so much for today. I feel I've just had a therapy session. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00No, honestly, thank you. Um, obviously, what I'll do with this, I'll kind of I'll send it. I always do, I'll kind of send it over to you so you can have a listen when you're ready. Um if there's anything that you're like, don't really want that there, even though like you said, you're an open book. But um, I do like to do it anyway, just out of courtesy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, that's fine.
SPEAKER_00But thank you. I think you've healed a little part of me with this imposter syndrome.
SPEAKER_02I'm telling you now, like yeah, just keep doing what you're doing, keep having the conversations, like just do like, and as I said, like if it helps that feeling that sense of like existential significance and insignificance at the same time, like just like you're doing what you're doing. Like when I was at my worst, my real worst, like when it reared its head again. I remember going for a walk with my um this is only like the last three years, four years. Um, I remember going for a walk with my dog, uh, like around uh um a pond near us, and it was like raining. I remember just like properly trying to ground myself in that moment of like when all said and done, I'm here with a random animal that loves me and wants to be here, and the rain's coming down. I'm in a beautiful location, like like I can feel the rain on my skin, like like life is crazy, like it's and what an amazing time that moment could be, and that that moment doesn't define everything, but equally everything else doesn't define that moment, so it's kind of like that that cool moment. So, like when it is all getting a bit too much, just find the thing that gives you energy and go and do it and commit to it. It's not selfish, it's self-preservation, you know.
SPEAKER_00It's funny, those things are often the things that are kind of the things that are free, it's not the things you know. You talk that you can buy happiness, you can buy this, you can buy it. It's not, it is kind of my we've got lakes like round the corner from where I live, and I take my two dogs around there, and I am at my most peace there. I used to live next to there when I was a kid, and it is just I am so calm. And sometimes I'll go walk around there four times a day when when it's a bad time.
SPEAKER_02And this is the thing like if you if you really get down to it, like that is spiritualism, like you know, the love of a an animal, like the connection between a human and an animal, like the connection with a human and nature, like that stuff is like it is gold dust because it's feeling not speaking, not it's just that feeling, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so more power to people to do it, like get and do it, like and you can make that time. Like life's busy, but you can make time, and because we brush it all.
SPEAKER_00I think that's what I've learned. I've I've always gone non-stop, non-stop, gotta be busy, gotta be busy. Because if I'm not busy, then I'm failure. If I'm not busy, then I'm lazy. If I'm not, you know, and all of that. And then the second that I stop, if I physically stop, then the brain goes, then the brain goes, and I'm kind of I used to never make time for I don't know, just running a bath, it's like jumping the shower, never take time to sit in and make in a cup of tea, I'll just like down energy drink, whatever, not make time, and it's actually those rituals again that it is making time for that actually just brings me peace, and it's absolutely yeah, so and and this has brought me peace today. So thank you so much. If you'd like to feature on an episode of All People Real Stories, please do drop me a message to Verity at SG1Madio.co.uk. Whatever it is that you want to talk about, if they're something you want to get on your chest, if you've got an important message that you think needs to be heard and get out there, you are part of the alternative community. I want to hear from you again. That's verity at sg1radio.co.uk. Drop me an email with a brief description of who you are and what you'd like to talk about, and I will get back to you. Thank you.
