Session 2: Villains Who Needed Therapy

Welcome back to Once Upon a Session — where stories meet healing.

Some villains just needed a session — or ten.

In this episode, Nareesa and Vanessa unpack the psychology of literary and fantasy antagonists: the misunderstood, the morally gray, and the ones who were one good therapist away from redemption.

From trauma responses to origin stories, we explore what makes a “villain,” why context matters, and how storytelling shapes who gets labeled the bad guy.

Insightful, funny, and just a little unhinged — because even villains deserve reflection.

Disclaimer: We're licensed therapists, but not your therapists. This podcast is for education, reflection, and inspiration.

Follow Once Upon a Session for new episodes exploring stories, psychology, and healing.

Transcript

Vanessa 0:03

Some villains are born.

Nareesa 0:05

Some are made.

Vanessa 0:07

And some just need a therapy. This is Once Upon a Session. Where two therapists turn their TPR pile into treatment plans. And every story becomes a session. I'm Vanessa.

Nareesa 0:17

And I'm chillin' like a villain. And I'm Nareesa.

Vanessa 0:22

Alright, let's talk.

Nareesa 0:24

Okay. Just a quick note before we dive in.

Vanessa 0:27

We're both licensed therapists, but we're not your therapist.

Nareesa 0:30

Everything we share here is for conversation, reflection, and maybe a little inspiration.

Vanessa 0:35

But it's not a substitute for therapy. If you're struggling, please reach out to a mental health professional who can give you the care and support you deserve.

Nareesa 0:43

Now that you're both checked in, have a seat on our couch. Alright, guys, here we are again. Thanks for coming back.

Nareesa 0:52

Yeah. So today's session is villains that needed therapy. Yes. Alright, guys, I've been waiting for this my whole entire life.

Vanessa 1:04

But there are so many villains who needed therapy. So many. All of them. Yeah, all of them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, you're right. All of them.

Nareesa 1:12

Yeah, absolutely. But yeah. Just the I think just the concept of thinking about them in therapy is like amazing.

Vanessa 1:20

But just even having to pick one.

Nareesa 1:22

Oh my god.

Vanessa 1:22

It's not like

Nareesa 1:23

there's so many options.

Vanessa 1:24

There were just so many options, but um, I'm good with what they're doing.

Nareesa 1:28

Yes, okay. Alright, so like let's define a villain versus an antagonist.

Nareesa 1:35

Alright.

Vanessa 1:36

Okay, so the antagonist is who stands in the protagonist's way. Their role is about conflict, not morality. An antagonist can be reasonable, protective, or even right. They're just on the opposite side of the goal. A villain is defined by harmful choices and moral violations. They cause damage emotionally, psychologically, physically, often with justification or entitlement. A villain isn't just in the way, they cross ethical lines. So then we're gonna talk about the idea of moral grayness. So not every character fits neatly into hero or villain. Most people and most well-written characters live in the gray. And that's where I love them. The morally gray. I love morally gray. So moral grayness is when a character has understandable motivations, uh, makes harmful choices, and can be both sympathetic and accountable at the same time.

Nareesa 2:35

Oh, we love accountability. Yes.

Vanessa 2:38

Yeah, like they aren't innocent, but they aren't cartoonishly evil either. Right, right.

Nareesa 2:43

Yeah, absolutely.

Vanessa 2:45

So this is understanding, not excusing. So when we talk about moral grayness, we're not here to excuse the harm. Understanding a character's backstory, trauma, or motivation is about context, not permission. We can say this explains how they got here without saying this makes it okay.

Nareesa 3:05

Yeah, so true. Um it's giving DBT already with the dialect. Okay, sorry. No, no, seriously. Yeah, no, absolutely.

Vanessa 3:15

Yeah. Um, so why do we root for villains? So here's the question we have to ask if villains cause harm, why do so many of us root for them?

Nareesa 3:24

Yeah, because it's not accidental. People don't just wake up one day and say, you know what? I love emotional devastation,

Vanessa 3:31

right? And I think the first layer is pretty simple. We identify with their pain.

Nareesa 3:36

Exactly. No, seriously, yeah. Yeah. And I feel like that's again, like just going back to how we came up with this idea. It's like we were identifying with people's pain or whatever, you know, the good thing, the good things, the bad things, all of that. So, yeah, exactly. Villains are almost always introduced through some kind of wound abandonment, betrayal, powerlessness, and we meet them after something has already gone wrong.

Vanessa 4:01

Yeah. And we don't connect with the cruelty first, we connect to the hurt. And that pain, like their pain looks familiar to us, like you were just saying. Yeah.

Nareesa 4:10

I'm laughing because, like, when we read the first book of Plated Prisoner series, and I was like, wait, that's what happened? That's what's going on.

Vanessa 4:19

Oh my god, yeah.

Nareesa 4:20

And I was like, I was so in her pain and her.

Vanessa 4:22

I was so into the plot.

Nareesa 4:24

I'm like, I knew this is what was happening. Yeah, the pain in the plot. Always ying and yinning. How is this always?

Vanessa 4:31

You know what? We're gonna do a segment called the pain in the plot. Yeah, ooh, I love that.

Nareesa 4:36

Because you're hearing it live. Yes, all right, anyway. Identification is not endorsement.

Vanessa 4:42

Yes, thank you. Feeling empathy doesn't mean you're co-signing the behavior.

Nareesa 4:48

I also think stories really romanticize suffering.

Vanessa 4:51

Yeah, absolutely. The tortured genius, the misunderstood loner, the hurt people, hurt people trope.

Nareesa 5:00

Oh my god, the hurt people hurt people. Somebody, one of my clients was like saying that. I don't remember like how it came out, but well, maybe because we were talking about this stuff, yeah. Yeah, and it was they were like, hurt people, hurt people. And I'm like, Yeah, mm-hmm. Yeah. Anyway, pain gets framed as depth. Like, see how much they've suffered, that must mean they're complex.

Vanessa 5:22

And suddenly suffering becomes a personality trait instead of a warning sign. Yeah ,

Nareesa 5:27

which is where we have to pause and say, pain can explain complexity, but it doesn't excuse harm.

Vanessa 5:33

Right. Explanation is not absolution. We're gonna keep saying that. We also have to talk about I can fix him culture.

Nareesa 5:42

Oh my god, no, seriously. We really do, because I always want to fix some.

Vanessa 5:49

I mean, like, that's what we do, but that's what we do.

Nareesa 5:51

So I always want to fix somebody. But like not in real life. No, no, that's the thing that there's boundaries. Well, we get to boundaries of some other of the time, but but um, yeah. Yeah, we really do.

Vanessa 6:05

Because rooting for villain often taps into caretaking identity. The fantasy that love, my love, will be the thing that changes them.

Nareesa 6:13

Oh my god, and that's such a seductive narrative. If I'm patient enough, understanding enough, sacrificing enough, then they won't hurt anymore. Ugh.

Vanessa 6:21

Yeah, well, that's not how change works, like in real life or in therapy.

Nareesa 6:25

Absolutely. Change requires insight, accountability, and sustained behavior change, not devotion.

Vanessa 6:31

Yeah, because loving someone harder doesn't make them safer.

Nareesa 6:35

Real talk.

Vanessa 6:37 Vanessa 6:37

Yeah. Alright

Vanessa 6:38

, another piece is projection and fantasy.

Vanessa 6:42

Yeah, we project our unmet needs onto villains, our anger, our desire for agency, our wish to stop being polite or small.

Vanessa 6:51

They do the things we don't allow ourselves to do.

Vanessa 6:54

Yeah . Like I would love to do all that shit they're doing. I know. They become a container for impulses we've had to suppress. Yeah, oh my god. And it's not real, so it's like they can do whatever the frick they want.

Speaker 2 7:08

Yeah. And in fiction, that's safe. Yeah, in real life, not so much. No, not at all. Mm-hmm. I think the quietest reason we root for villains is power. Power is safety. Exactly. Villains are decisive, feared, and control. And if you've ever felt unsafe, ignored, or powerless, that kind of power can feel protective. Oh my god. Yes. Yeah, like if someone is strong enough to destroy, maybe they're just strong enough to protect. Yeah, but that's a trap, girl. Yeah, because power isn't the same as care. Yeah. And when vulnerability hasn't been safe, power can feel safer than kindness. So rooting for a villain doesn't mean you want harm. It usually means you're responding to pain, fantasy, or a need for safety. And the danger isn't liking complex characters. The danger is confusing power with love. Or control with care. Alright, so Nerisa, who's on your couch today? Oh my god. I have been waiting all my life for this moment. And when I'm done with it, I'm going to check off something on my bucket list that doesn't exist because yeah. I can't wait to do this person for like another thing, like another topic. Oh my god. Oh my god. So it's gonna come up. But guys, my character is not from a book, but we know him very, very well, and he's the greatest villain of all time. Mr. Darth Vader. How dare you? You better call him by his government name. Right, Anakin Skywolf. Thank you. You're welcome. He's always little Annie to me. I don't see him as anything but baby Annie. Yeah, a Anakin in the teen years was a menace. Yeah, he was all over the place. A little bit. Yeah. But I also loved Darth. Like when he became Darth. And like the end, you know. Anyway, let's get to it. Okay, so Darth Vader begins as Anakin Skywalker, a child taken from his mother, raised in instability, and taught that fear and attachment are dangerous. From a young age, Anakin experiences repeated loss, including separation, violence, and constant pressure to suppress emotion. As he grows older, Anakin becomes increasingly afraid of losing the people he loves. Instead of being taught how to process fear or grief, he is taught how to control it. Authority figures reinforce the belief that power is the only way to stay safe. Over time, grief, fear, and anger begin to drive Anakin's decisions. His identity slowly shifts from a person who wants to protect others into someone who believes control and dominance are necessary necessary for survival. Okay, the gradual shift is what ultimately leads to the creation of Dart Vader. So the presenting problem here. Well, I figured unresolved grief, fear of abandonment. Yes. Okay. So unresolved grief, fear of abandonment, and poor emotion regulation, I would say. Anything else you want to add? So problem behavior. Well, like you love Anakin too, Vader. He's not a problem at all. No, he's going. Right. He's not a problem at all. He's perfect. But from a clinical perspective, Darth Vader presents with severe unresolved grief and fear of abandonment. His emotions are intense and poorly regulated, and he copes with them through control, aggression, and emotional shutdown. His sense of identity becomes completely tied to power, authority, and role. Vulnerability feels unsafe, and emotional pain is avoided through dominance. Core themes in his story include fear of loss, black and white thinking, moral injury and shame. Rather than processing guilt, he doubles down on harmful behavior and reinforces the cycle. Oh man. That's a lot. Like I love, I just love this. God, I've been waiting to analyze later, so like I'm so happy right now. Okay, sorry guys. My excitement is getting the best of me. Um, so treatment goals and objectives. Uh straight DBT here because emotion regulation, maladaptive thinking, which is a little CBT, and grief therapy for sure. Yeah, definitely. But I think the important thing to point out here is that is the timing of the intervention, right? Because essentially there was no intervention, right? Because this, you know. So Anakin could have processed his grief and done all the therapeutic work to avoid becoming Vader, essentially. So like the timing here. But then we wouldn't have Vader. So I know, and I wouldn't ever want that. Yeah. So, yeah, so and I also think like more for Anakin, like trauma and grief, and then for Vader, he needs more DBT. Like, I would even do two separate things for them. So I also want to just throw in here, guys, um, just the five stages of grief, if you guys don't know. Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. Alright, so like where do you think Vader was in his or Anakin was in his five stages of grief process? I like I would say like somewhere between like after probably at anger, honestly. I feel like he just oscillates through all the stages somehow. But I don't think he ever got to acceptance, obviously. No, well no. Yeah, yeah. So the primary goal of treatment would be helping Anakin process grief and fear without acting through violence or control. Therapy would aim to increase emotional tolerance and help him sit with pain instead of trying to erase it. Additional goals would include separating identity from power, changing all or nothing thinking, and addressing guilt in a way that doesn't lead to further harm. That's asking for a lot. I know. He's not gonna be done with any of this. Uh-uh. He might choke you a little bit. Oh I might like that.

Speaker 3 13:40

Alright, that's for another time. Okay, I keep all I'm thinking about now is like in the series and OV1. Yeah.

Speaker 2 13:50

Same. That's actually what I was thinking about. When he like lifted that whole spacecraft with his force. Yeah. And then when he was fighting the girl, he was just like waving his hand like this pathetic. I'm bored. Like he's yawning. Ugh, love him. Okay. A key objective would be accountability, acknowledging harm without justification or self-destruction, which is exactly why I said he wouldn't be down for it because he's not gonna be accountable. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so possible interventions. Um, I definitely think grief-focused therapy, um, dbt, CBT, kind of the things we talked about before, attachment-based work, um, uh addressing abandonment, um, trauma-informed therapy. Is is this a borderline personality disorder we're talking about here? It sounds like it. It sounds like it a little bit, right? Yeah, but not really. But not really. Yeah. Yeah, that's really it's like borderline and antisocial together or something. Because the abandonment, emotion dysregulation, self-harm. Yeah, oh my god.

Speaker 3 15:00

Here, there's a borderline.

Speaker 2 15:03

No, he can't be a borderline because you know, like I I wouldn't. No, yeah, no, I get it. I get it. Don't ruin him for me. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I know, but this never, but still. This is therapy. Um, and challenging black and white thinking, and um, yeah, so the outcome of Vader. Well, he definitely doesn't get therapy, and um, he's overtaken by his power and anger. He kills Padme. Can we tell I was almost gonna forget Padme? Oh no, like you can't forget I know the whole reason he did all this was because he wanted to protect the people that he loved and he thought this was the way to do it. And can we just talk about our favorite movie, episode three, where he's going between the two, like the good and the bad? It's it's just so hard to think about it because to just imagine what he's actually suffering with. Yeah, you know, and then we're watching him like make these decisions, and you know, you think you're doing the right thing, or and it costs you everything. Yeah. How do you even bounce back from that without therapy? Right. I just feel like also people unfairly judged him. Sorry, this is my bias, because I love him and he can never do wrong in my eyes. Like, they were like, Oh, he's the bad guy, he's the bad guy. Like, and they always refer to him killing the children, which is like well, sometimes yeah.

Speaker 3 16:39

I mean, it's a movie, first of all. Like, I just tell people it's not real, it's a movie.

Speaker 2 16:43

Yeah, I was gonna say sometimes you need something really strong, like in the pull at people's emotions to see like how far they'll go, you know, with sympathizing with someone, absolutely, you know, that they've been rooting for for so long, right? Yeah, I also feel like that maybe villainized him a little bit more because people forgot. Well, I don't think people are thinking about him the way we're thinking about him, so never mind. But maybe some people might be. Um, but I think that you know, it left us not really appreciating his pain and suffering and more like he just killed children and like the focus shift. So yeah, yeah, he ended up hurting the people he protected. Um, and he does not experience long-term therapeutic healing. His redemption comes through sacrifice rather than sustained recovery. But from a treatment perspective, this highlights the importance of timing, like I was saying earlier. Intervention earlier in life could have altered his trajectory, although we never want to change him. But yes, in a therapeutic lens, yes. Once fear, power, and identity becomes intertwined, the window for meaningful change narrows significantly. And also, I love that Luke like saw his dad and he had faith in him, and he was like, No, like you're a good person. And like ultimately he sacrificed himself for Luke, and I think it was just a beautiful way. And like hopefully people got at the end of that who think he's bad, that like he still had some good in him. But he was blinded by his untreated trauma and grief, and and there was so much, yeah. Like just that scene of him picking his mom up. Yeah, like I can't yeah, it's heartbreaking. And like, wouldn't you want to save the people you love and sacrifice something? Because like sometimes that's just what it is. You have to sacrifice something to save people you love, and and like you know, this whole like dark side and you know, Jedi side, and I also like the beliefs of the Jedi, like don't get attached to things and don't you know, like whatever. This is gonna be a three thousand hour long conversation. Keep going with this, but like why not get attached to like what's why is that a negative thing? And I mean, I guess, right, because they're like one with the force, right? So you can't really hold on to things in that sense. Like you have to understand that you're you're a part of everything, like you can't hang on to things, but then like why do we see the people who people are attached to in the force like when they're gone if we're not supposed to be attached to them, yeah. Well, maybe they're not attached to them, they're doing individually, they're doing their own thing, but together, but they're not that's a good way of looking at it. But I mean, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, anyway, like I said, we can talk about this for hours and hours. But um we'll do a get back. Yeah, we'll do a get back. We will definitely be coming back to this. But like, just you know, for us to chit-chat about now, like, how do you see unprocessed grief like showing up in real people's behavior? Oh man. I know so many ways. I feel like anger, yeah, displaced anger, obviously, guilt, self-harm, substance abuse, all that. You'll just see someone react a certain way, and then it's like they regress and you're like, okay, this is something that you're dealing with that has nothing to do with right now. But you know, like just handle it. Yeah, and like it's so important to process your grief because you just need to give yourself that space, you know, to heal. And and it there's no right way. And like I remember when you were grieving, you know. I'm still grieving. I know, yes, you are still grieving. Yeah, but um, I was struggling with like I wanna like f here I go, right? I wanna fix this. I don't want her to be sad. I don't and I had to be like, no, you know what? Give her space, like let her do her thing. Like, you don't have to like I had to be sad, yeah, right. I can't like what how would I just get over it and just be like, Oh, nothing happened, you know. Yeah, yeah, it was just me figuring out how to like support you while giving you that space. So it's important. And I just want to end on like one note here because I mentioned DBT, dialectical behavioral therapy, which is basically working on acceptance and change, and like two things can be true at the same time, and your pain makes sense, and your behavior has to change. Yeah, so basically, yeah, yeah, DBT is life. DBT is amazing, yes, all right, all right, Charlie Swenson. No, Marsha Umright. So if who are you talking about? If Darth Vader is rage, power, and destiny, I want to talk about a very different kind of villain. All right. So I am going to talk about Jax. So Jax is a character from Once Upon a Broken Heart series by Stephanie Garber. And spoiler alert, I am going to discuss this book. Yeah. Not gonna really give off a lot of spoilers within the book, but like just don't listen if you haven't read Once Upon a Broken Heart series. The way we well, actually, you can listen because like I'm not even talking about the story itself. Like I'm talking about just Jack's character and like just how his emotions kind of yeah, just listen. Absolutely. We like breezed through that series too. Yeah, we did. It was so good. It was so good, and I didn't realize like it was the second book series after that other one. I thought that came. Yeah. I can't say the words, so I'm not gonna. Got it, got it, yeah. Okay. Alright, so okay, so no spoilers there. Yeah. Because I can't, yeah. Alright. So before we get into the therapy part, let's talk about who Jax actually is, especially for anyone who hasn't read Once Upon Its Broken Heart or needs a refresher. Jax, often called the Prince of Hearts, is a magical, immortal being who exists somewhere between fairy tale and cautionary legend. He's charming, dangerous, and cursed. Literally. Anyone he kisses dies, which means intimacy, desire, and connections are all tied to harm. From the beginning, Jax is introduced as someone you're warned about. He's known for making deals that cost more than people expect, manipulating outcomes, and positioning himself as both helper and threat. He's deeply aware of his own reputation and often uses it to his advantage. But as the series unfolds, it becomes clear that Jax isn't driven by cruelty or for cruelty's sake. He's driven by fear, loss, and control. He has a long history of abandonment and betrayal, and rather than risk vulnerability again, he keeps people at a distance through rules, curses, and emotional withholding. Jax often frames his behavior as protection for himself and sometimes for others. But the impact is still harm. He withholds information, manipulates situations, and decides outcomes without consent, all while insisting he's preventing something worse. One of the most important things to understand about Jax is that he does experience attachment and devotion, even if he denies it. When he cares, it's intense. But instead of bringing him closer, it makes him more controlling and more afraid. Love for him isn't safe, it's a liability. Throughout the series, Jax exists in this morally gray space. He helps, but at a cost. He loves but with conditions, and he suffers but often passes that suffering on. And that's why readers are so divided on him. Yeah. Some see him as tragic and misunderstood, others see him as manipulative and emotionally dangerous. Both can be true at the same time, like you just said, you know. Which, like, what did you think? I I saw both. Yeah. You know, I saw both with Jax. I felt like he I was like, okay, he's cursed. So I have to I have to feel him on that a little bit because what's he supposed to do? Yeah. You know, and he's immortal and he's a fate. And oh my god, a fate like like Reggie. Oh Reggie. Reggie. Yeah. I miss you, Reggie. Oh, Reggie. If you don't know who Reggie's a fate is, just yeah, like I was gonna grow up.

Speaker 3 25:40

I was about to spoil it and be like, Oh no, don't yeah. Sorry guys, you didn't see what I just said. Yeah, yeah, no. Get too late if you don't know.

Speaker 2 25:49

Yeah, I love what I saw. Yeah, but like if you don't know, like go Google it or something. So Jax isn't a villain in the traditional sense, but he's also not a misunderstood hero. He's someone whose trauma has calcified into patterns to hurt the people closest to him. So, with that context, let's talk about what it would actually be like to have Jax sitting across from you in a therapy session. Here's my treatment plan for Jax. So we're talking about Jax as if he voluntarily walked into my office. Alright, so why he would be here. Chronic patterns of sabotaging intimacy, manipulation framed as protection, intense fear of abandonment, repeated relational rupture, magical curse functioning as both excuse and a shield. Because, like I said, right, like I felt bad for him because of the curse, but then also he's doing bad shit, and he can use that as an excuse. Yeah, we had to like even balance our own like two sides of how we felt. Yeah, the character. Yeah. Because I was really shipping him with Evangeline. Yeah. And I was like, oh, I want them to get together. I just want them to get together. But yeah. Loved it. I won't spoil what happens. No. I'm not even gonna talk about Evangeline, so you're welcome. Yeah. Um I want to read it again now. Yeah. I think I might want to read it. But we have RTBRs who love it. You know, RTR, yeah, no more DMX's. Yes. Alright. So when I think about Jax walking into a therapy session, the first thing I'm listening for isn't the curse or the mythology. It's the pattern. Because Jax doesn't come in saying I'm manipulative or I sabotage intimacy. He comes in saying some version of every relationship ends the same way. And finally, there's the curse, which functions as both an excuse and a shield. It explains why intimacy is dangerous, it justifies emotional distance, and it protects him from accountability because the harm can always be blamed on something external. In real life, we see this all the time, not with magic, but with identity. Trauma, diagnosis, history, things that start as explanations quietly become reasons like not to change. Yeah. So people are just like, that's just who I am, you know. And anyway, so Jax isn't coming to therapy because he wants redemption. He's coming because the same pain keeps repeating and he doesn't know any other way to survive it. Okay, okay. The first thing I would put on my treatment plan would be attachment wounds. Just avoidant and anxious flip-flop. Um then I would address control as safety, charm as defense. But he was hot, so like why wouldn't you use two charm? Yeah. Um, they got no boundaries, yeah, yeah. And romanticized suffering. He confuses distance with safety and power with connection. He moves back and forth between one and closeness and being terrified of it. When he feels emotionally close, he pulls away. When he senses he might lose someone, he tightens his grip. That avoidant anxious flip is really common in people with attachment wounds. They crave attention, but safety feels conditional. For Jax, controls become control becomes a substitute for safety. Instead of saying what he needs or asking for reassurance, he manages outcomes. He decides for people. He believes that if he can control what happens next, he can prevent loss. Pain isn't just something Jax endures, it becomes part of who he is. The curse, the loss, the tragedy, all of it starts to justify why he can't change. The first book, he literally said to Evangeline, he was like, hurt is what made me. Yeah. Because she was saying something about your hurt and my hurt are different. And he's like, hurt is what made me. Yeah. And I remember that. Um that's such a powerful thing, too. Yeah. Yeah. So when suffering becomes romanticized, healing can feel like betrayal. Because if you let go of the pain, you have to ask what it was all for. Yeah. Jax isn't chaotic, he's consistent, and the consistency is just rooted in fear. So underneath all of Jax's behavior are these quiet, unspoken rules, the kind that people don't usually say out loud, but absolutely live by. One of the biggest ones is if I care, I lose. Caring for Jax isn't neutral, it's a risk. It's the moment everything becomes vulnerable. So instead of letting himself care freely, he keeps emotional distance or he controls the terms of connection. Not because he doesn't feel, but because feeling always comes with consequence. Another rule is if I don't need anyone, I can't be abandoned. This is where the independence becomes armor, needs get reframed as weakness, and attachment gets denied, even when it's clearly there. In therapy, this is the client who insists they're fine, right up until they're not. You know? Yeah. And then all of a sudden, like you're in full-blown crisis when you can come here every week and we can fix this. Yeah, absolutely. But it's you know, like obviously it takes time. Like there's so many layers to peel back, and like, yeah, but yeah. It's the I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. I actually did that recently. Yeah. When I was going through something, and remember, I was just saying, like, oh yeah, I'm fine, it's gonna be fine, everything's gonna be fine. And then like my therapist was like, How are you fine, right? Like, what do you mean you're fine? You just went through like rejection, betrayal, like all this stuff. How are you fine? So I was like, Yeah, you're right. So, like, she then forced me to like feel the things that I was not feeling because yeah, they're gonna build up. So totally relate, they are jacks, yeah. Well, for Jax, love isn't safety or partnership, it's leverage, it's something that can be used against you. So closeness always comes with suspicion. Yeah, when love feels like danger, control starts to feel like the only way to stay upright. And finally, there's this deep resignation underneath everything. Pain is inevitable, so I might as well control it. If pain is coming no matter what, then managing it feels smarter than hoping it won't. You know? That's so true. Shit. This belief turns survival strategies into long-term patterns, patterns that once kept him safe but now keep him stuck. Yeah, yeah. And that's where the real work comes in. Yeah, yeah. And none of these beliefs make someone a villain, but when they go unchallenged, they quietly shape every relationship, and usually they shape it around fear. This is serious treatment planning. Let's go. Therapeutic goals, not redemption, fantasy. Tolerate vulnerability without punishing it. Identify manipulation in real time, separate trauma from justification, build accountability without collapse, learn that learn consent emotionally, not just magically. The goal isn't to make him good, it's to make him honest. And some interventions I think that might actually work for him would be attachment-based therapy, gentle confrontation, repair focus, relational work, some barriers to treatment, power imbalance, magical. He's literally magic. He's a fate, resistance to accountability, and fear of fear that healing equals loss of identity. If he heals, who is he without the curse? God, and we hear that so much too. Yeah, and finally, some strengths, because yes, he has some. He has insight, one-cornered, emotional intelligence, capacity for devotion, ability to endure pain, and desire for connection, even if denied. Like so, but trauma explains behavior, it doesn't excuse it. I love that you pointed out the the strengths too. Yeah, thank you for doing the strengths. I didn't point out any strengths for Vader, but he's Vader, so figure it out. Exactly. Yeah. Alright, so it's time for treatment team meeting. My favorite part. Do it. Do it. Alright. So instead of rehashing the cases, let's do what actually happens in a treatment team meeting. Argue about what matters the most. I love arguing. Let's go. What is the actual treatment target? For Jax, I'm not treating the curse. I'm treating control. For Vader, I'm treating grief. Specifically, what happens when grief turns into rage? What are we not prioritizing right now? I'm not going into childhood trauma with Vader yet. It's too destabilizing right now. Same. And with Jax, I'm not validating pain until behavior changes. Oof. Yeah. Oof. Okay, biggest risk if we get this wrong. With Jax, the risk is quiet harm. Emotional coercion that gets normalized. With Vader, it's obvious harm. Violence and destruction. One explodes. One corrodes. Oh my god. Okay, who's harder to sit with as a therapist? Vader, for sure. I would shit my pants if Vader was sitting in front of me. Like he's so intimidating. Um, I if Vader was in front of me, like Yeah, this is PG.

Speaker 3 35:09

PG. PG, what? Just kidding. This is an formature audience.

Speaker 2 35:14

I didn't say anything, but I'm just saying if Vader was in front of me. It was your sorry guys, you couldn't see her face when she was actually saying if Vader and she started like fixing her hair, like she's lushing that.

Speaker 3 35:26

Stop it. I'm making you not. Okay, okay.

Speaker 2 35:30

But um, I don't know. I think Jax might be harder. Okay, but how why?

Speaker 3 35:35

How? Possibly.

Speaker 2 35:35

Because he makes Vader, yeah, he makes you doubt yourself. Vader scares you, Jax seduces the room. Well, he only scares you if you let him scare you, but yeah. I don't know. He's literally magic, he can do that. Hmm. I don't know. Okay, well, whatever. Well, who leaves therapy first? Jax. The moment accountability shows up. I think Vader leaves when shame hits. So neither of them like discomfort. Correct, I guess. Alright. If therapy fails, who does it? Why does it who does it? Why does it who does it? Why does it if therapy fails, why does it fail? Well, Vader collapses into avoidance, obviously. Yeah, and Jax refuses to relinquish control. So the defense is stay smarter than the work. Exactly. Alright, gun to your head. Who's your who's on your caseload? I'm taking Vader, obviously. I'm taking Jax so I can date Vader because he won't be in my car. Okay, well, I'll take Jax so I can have some of his magic whatever curse. He's not gonna give you any.

Speaker 3 36:41

He's horrible. What? Why?

Speaker 2 36:43

Why would he give you some?

Speaker 3 36:45

Well, I can dye my hair pink too and pretend to be a vampires.

Speaker 2 36:50

Yeah, exactly. I love it. Oh, what is that? Little fox. Yeah. Oh, I forgot about that. Little Osha, little fox, little mouse. Oh my god. Okay. Alright, so this episode wasn't about redeeming villains. It was about understanding what creates them. Because reflection doesn't belong only to heroes. Some villains don't need exile, they need accountability boundaries and a really good therapist. Yeah, so Anakin, Vader, call me a bad thing. Call me. Call me call me. No, you can have one. No, I'm taking Annie. Well, no, I mean, you know, no, I'm not. Yeah, okay, you're not bad. Okay. I'm taking Vader because fucking Annie was a little bitch. Okay, well, you want to do child therapy with little Annie? No, I'm talking about Anakin. He was a little bitch. Okay, fine. I'll take Anader because well, if I do therapy with V uh Anakin, then I won't exist.

Speaker 3 37:50

Vader won't exist. So yeah, that's fine. Take Vader.

Speaker 2 37:54

I hate child therapy. Yeah, me yeah, no offense to child therapist, but it's not for me. I can't do play therapy. I need someone who's gonna be well we can do prey therapy. We're not doing pray therapy. We can do play therapy with adults. That's kind of cool. What how would we do play therapy with adults? Like, you know, like the I like playing board games and stuff. Well, you know, that box with the sand and the stuff. Oh, the sand therapy. Sand tray therapy. Oh yeah, you can do that. That can be cool. That's kind of like that's play therapy. Yeah, okay. I didn't this is why I said this is why I don't do play therapy because I couldn't even tell yet. So, like, alright, so like we discussed those two villains, but like we need to mention some other ones that are our favorites. Yeah. So yeah. Okay, one for me is Zayd Meadows. I don't know that he would be considered a villain, but like he wasn't a good but he was doing good things. He was morally gray. Yeah, right? But say an anti-hero shit. Yeah. I would say Zaid Meadows. I love him. But I don't consider him a villain. What I don't take it back. No, yeah.

Speaker 3 39:04

I don't think we can no, well, no, there's real villains that I fucking hate.

Speaker 2 39:08

Like fucking, what's her name? Sorry, I just got so angry thinking about this fucking lady. Um fucking King Midas. Oh no. I hate him. I hate him. Oh my god. He it's because he tricked you, and I knew his deal at the beginning of the so wrapped up in her emotional pain. I'm sorry. Yeah, but I saw him for what he was in the beginning, and I was like, oh, I hate him. Yeah, no. I was like, I can't wait. I know you're gonna die, and I can't wait for it. I hate him. Yeah. Oh my god, what about when Arabin? Arabin? Oh my god, Arabin. I hate him. Oh my god. Everything about it. When I found out what he did, I was like, the betrayal, and then Sam. Oh my god. Yeah.

Speaker 6 39:59

Sam.

Speaker 2 40:00

Yeah. If y'all don't know who's gonna be. Don't say it. I love this. I love just saying their names. Yeah. And if they don't know, they don't know, then we're not technically spoiling. That's true. Yeah. We're just saying names. This could be any Sam in the world.

unknown 40:17

Yeah.

Speaker 2 40:18

Yeah. Also, Micah. No. What is the sister's name? I hate her. Which sister? In Gods and Monsters. Oh my god. Their sister, I hate her. Whatever her name is, I hate her. Um, it's like I forgot about Amarantha, so like I don't even really think about hating her. Like, I'm done being mad at her now. I like the back story. More than anything. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 6 40:47

Oh my god.

Speaker 2 40:48

Oh my god. The one that cut off um Hunt's wings. Oh my god. Oh god. Sandrio. I hate her. Sorry, I'm getting my this is real anger coming out now. Yeah. So yeah, guys, like we don't sympathize with all villains. No. We actually there's ones that we really hate. Yeah. And but we love Voldemort. Yeah. Love Voldemort. Man, yeah. If we had more time, we would be talking about him too. Yeah, but I mean he'll have another chance in another episode. I mean, there's so much shit that he's done. Oh my god. Oh my god, Snape. Who like, oh stop. Don't get me started on my literally like Snape. Okay, yeah. Alright, well, let me not talk about the Qui-Gon. No stop because you know what? I was sitting here just now when I was like, no, I'm not gonna do it. I was gonna say, I need to honorably mention Q-Gon. Yeah, Qui-Gon. I was dead about to say that. That's so funny. I love Qui-Gon. You cry. Oh, he is like my heart. He's so underrated. He's my heart. He is my heart. Well, maybe not really underrated, but like, you know. I love him. He's amazing. I can't even say to death because he died too soon. Yeah. Wait. Rest in peace, Qui-Gon. Oh, he's he's chilling in the force. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. He's cool. Alright. So we're gonna play a couple of rapid fire games. Okay. Okay. Treatment plan or restraining order? Oh my god. Um Caden. Treatment plan or restraining order. Oh, I would like inpatient therapy. I would give him so it's like I would do outpatient therapy for him. Treatment plan. Yeah. Yeah. For Caden, I would I feel like at some points I would have to give him like a restraining order. Yeah. Well for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Alright. Sam Kyle. Oh my god. He's at home with me, loving on me. Oh. Just living our lives together. Outpatient therapy. Okay, but like not restraining order, because he's treating he has okay. I would treatment plan him too. I mean, yeah, I'm never putting a restraining order against Sam Kyle. An Athlar. Oh my god. Treatment plan. Yeah, treatment plan. Um, Tamlin. Oh my god, lock him up. Yeah, he needs a higher level of care. He's a danger to solve because he lost his love. Seriously, yeah. So depressed. Absolutely. Okay. Oh, what about that stupid little prince in that on the mock?

Speaker 3 43:37

Oh fucking nice. Fucking restraining order.

Speaker 2 43:40

Yeah. Because I hate her. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Realize I said Sam Kyle, but he's not a villain, so I take that back. Sorry. He's the world ender, so he's the villain to the world. Like I said, he's not a villain. Okay. Well, he was gonna be home chilling, relaxing. Yeah, exactly. Right. Okay. Sorry, take it back. Um the wolf queen. Yeah. Sadine. Restrain in order. Yeah. And Sandria. Yeah. Yeah. What about Maeve? Maeve? Inpatient. She would need a higher level of care. Okay. And she would stay there. Yeah. I don't I don't think restraining order is necessary with her because I don't think she would even take outpatient therapy seriously. Yeah. Yeah. Is there a villain in Quicksilver? Oh, you remember that queen? Oh, that bitch. She needs inpatient care. Oh my god. Yeah. What about Midas? A restraining order. I don't like him. I just don't like him. He wouldn't even do therapy. I don't think he would. What about um the king with the the you know Rot? No, not Rot. No, Rot, I would never Rot is never gonna be a villain. No, and throw in a glass. Oh, the King's Champion King? No, like Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dorian's dad? Dorian's dad. Well, I didn't want to give it up. Whoa. Oops. Major spoiler alert.

Speaker 3 45:24

Major spoiler alert. It's too late.

Speaker 2 45:27

Um they don't know who we're talking about.

Speaker 3 45:29

No, they don't know. Right.

Speaker 2 45:30

Well, yeah, they will. Whatever, bro. What about actually?

Speaker 3 45:35

Yeah, why don't you know who that is? No. Love us.

Speaker 2 45:38

Please love us. Oh my god.

Speaker 3 45:40

Because you like what you hear.

Speaker 2 45:41

I like what you hear.

Speaker 3 45:42

Um, okay, let's see. Let's go on to our um Okay, another rapid fire.

Speaker 2 45:48

Another rapid fire. Okay. What was the point of no return? Oh my god. For Kate. I don't know why I keep starting with Caden, but for Caden, the point of no return for me was when he killed. I mean when they broadcasted that episode. Yeah. Oh no. Yeah, that was the point of no return. Um oh god. I was gonna say something about Vader, but like still. I will return every time. Exactly. So I can't. I was gonna say when he killed Padme, but no, but he didn't choke her and yeah, no, I know. It wasn't, yeah. He didn't want her dead. Yeah, it wasn't intentional. But again, he'll never do wrong. So forget about it. Um oh my god, what about that king in one dark window?

Speaker 3 46:36

I don't know.

Speaker 2 46:38

The people that were trying to kill.

unknown 46:40

Let me stop it.

Speaker 3 46:41

It's someone always trying to kill someone. Yeah, stop talking about it because you're ruining every book for people. Um oh my god.

Speaker 2 46:53

Mia, it's the TV.

Speaker 3 46:55

The Venom people?

Speaker 2 46:57

No, those weren't like villains. Yeah. They didn't matter.

Speaker 3 47:00

Yeah, we didn't really care about them. Okay, luckily nobody heard that one because I was talking over you. What are you doing?

Speaker 6 47:10

I was looking at those.

Speaker 3 47:12

Oh.

Speaker 2 47:15

And our last little mini game is What's the problem? What's What's the problem? Okay. So, okay. Um, let's pretend Voldemort shows up for session. Um, what do you think he's gonna say the problem is, and what are we gonna think the actual problem is after meeting with him? He's gonna say the problem is Harry stole my power. He can't find his He can't find his horse. Yeah. We're gonna think he's drunk on power and Yeah. He's a danger. Um I would definitely think he's like a this guy's a danger to other people. So Yeah. So admit him. Okay, what if um come to die? Oh my god. What if Diana came to your because she's a villain? What if she's ink morathon?

Speaker 3 48:15

Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 48:16

What if she came in? What what would she say she's there for?

Speaker 3 48:19

Um well it depends on what uh book.

Speaker 2 48:23

I think she would say that Sam Kyle made her come to deal with her trauma.

Speaker 3 48:30

Okay, that's fair.

Speaker 2 48:33

Um But you know, like when she was dealing with her stuff, it's like she was really having a difficult time and she wasn't really in reality. Yeah. Um She would probably say, like, I don't like I don't have a problem. I'm just flying around killing people who deserve to be killed. So, like, oh shit, here we go. Sorry guys. Well, I didn't say who was killed, so we can take that, we can leave that. Yeah, but yeah, she'd be like, I don't understand, like, I'm getting my revenge, these people deserve it, there's no problem. Yeah, and then it would be like her real problem is she has unresolved grief and trauma. Definitely, yeah, right. Well, that was a good one, yeah. Excellent choice. Thank you. I'm all villained out for the next two days. We're gonna be like, oh, why didn't we? Exactly. We're gonna do the research after the fact, but it's fine because this is what it's all about. Yeah, yeah. Alright. Well, hopefully, you guys are thinking of some villains on your end. Yeah. And going through this with your friends or yourself or whatever. But um, yeah. Alright, guys. As usual, we're gonna do a little teaser for next week's episode. So here we go. Alright. Some connections don't cross boundaries, they charge admission. If being around someone feels like work, that's not chemistry. It's an emotional cover charge. In this episode, we're talking boundaries and emotional labor. And why protecting your peace isn't selfish. It's choosing healthy access. That's it for session three, guys. See you next week. See you next week. We want you to be a part of this world with us. Send us your book recommendations, character obsessions, or topics you want us to cover. You can find us on Instagram and TikTok at once upon a session pod. Or email us. Fuck.

Speaker 3 50:26

Or email us at once upon a session. Fonts upon the fences.

Speaker 2 50:32

Or email us at once upon.

Speaker 3 50:36

Okay. We don't have an email anymore because she can't say the fucking email address.

Speaker 2 50:42

Okay, or email us at once upon us at no not wait again.

Speaker 3 50:51

Wait, okay, wait. I'm not doing that this time. Let's go, ma'am. Okay.

Speaker 2 51:00

I'm so sorry.

Speaker 3 51:02

Oh my gosh. She's getting it out. Let's just get it out. Okay. Gosh, I'm reliving psych wards all over again. Oh my god, your face just now. Okay.

Speaker 2 51:27

This is good, guys. Thank you for hanging in till the very, very end. Okay. See, this is why you gotta hang in. You're missing the good stuff. Or email us at info at onceuponasessionpod.com. Good job. If you want to share thoughts, suggestions, or just scream about plot twist with us. All right. So are we charging for this session? Emotionally, always. See you next session. Same couch. Chaos.