Session 3: Emotional Cover Charge

Welcome back to Once Upon a Session — where stories meet healing.

You know that moment when someone’s energy starts to feel… expensive? That’s the emotional cover charge.

In this episode, Vanessa and Nareesa unpack what it means to protect your peace without guilt, how to recognize when emotional labor becomes transactional, and why boundaries aren’t walls — they’re invitations for healthy access.

From therapy rooms to friendships to fantasy worlds, we explore self-worth, emotional reciprocity, and the art of saying, “You can’t afford admission right now” — with clarity, compassion, and a little humor.

Disclaimer: We’re licensed therapists, but not your therapists. This podcast is for conversation, reflection, and inspiration.

Follow Once Upon a Session for new exploring stories, psychology, and healing.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Have you ever had to emotionally prepare before seeing someone? Like rehearse what you're gonna say, manage your tone, brace yourself, and you're already tired before the interaction even happens? That's called an emotional cover charge. This is Once Upon a Session where two therapists turn their TPR pile into treatment plans. And every story becomes a session. I'm Nerisa and I'm done paying cover charge. And I'm Vanessa. Just a quick note before we dive in, we're both licensed therapists, but we're not your therapist. Everything we share here is for conversation, reflection, and maybe a little inspiration. But it's not a substitute for therapy. If you're struggling, please reach out to a mental health professional who can give you the care and support you deserve. Now that you're all checked in, have a seat on our couch. Alright, here we are. Welcome back. Welcome back. If you're still here, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 1:02

And if you're new here, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

We're new here. Yeah, you're right. You're right. So you're welcome. Yeah, we're also new here, guys. So what's going on? What have you been up to? Uh just working and I'm trying to read. So I've been fucking off with reading for the post a few weeks. I know. It's so terrible, guys. But we're still reading Plated Prisoner, but we'll get to it.

SPEAKER_03 1:30

We had work to do to keep y'all here with us.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

And we're doing everything ourselves, so you know, like it's hard. Right, right, it is. But it's worth it. Yeah. Yeah. Having a great time. I've enjoyed doing the episodes we did so far. Yeah. And there's endless possibilities coming. And you have new clients, right? I have some new clients.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

Um, that's going well. Hoping I get people. Well, I don't like meet people. I'm like, hey, do you read? Read a book. You know.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Yeah, they're like, I'm coming here for my anxiety.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

Right. And then I'm like, read a book.

unknown 2:11

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Yeah, well, you know.

SPEAKER_03 2:12

And I'm like, well, I have anxiety too. And you know what helped me? Reading. Reading.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

But um, no, that's going really well. Um, yeah, I don't have much going on at the moment. I'm trying to hurry up. Well, you literally just celebrated your birthday a couple of years. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

I don't have much going on. What? Well, I like to forget because I'm getting old.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

But you celebrated your birthday too. Like two weeks ago. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

Yes. I loved it. I had my birthday. Yeah. Guys, we're like older now, so we don't do the partying and well, we're older. I'm saying, like, we don't party and drink and go crazy on our birthdays anymore. We like a quiet time. Well, I guess I'm old. She's not. Yeah. No, but you're not. Oh my god, but no. Yeah. So, like, but yeah, I'm just back. I went out of town. I'm back for work. And how's the promotion go? Because people want to know. I kind of I'm mostly moved into my new office, but you know how like bad I am with change. I'm like still just going up and down the um the elevator all day. Sweaming yourself. Yeah, slowly. How was it? How was the goodbye from the psych ward? Oh, oh my goodness. So they threw me a party and it was a surprise party, and of course, you know, I'm scared.

SPEAKER_03 3:36

No, but you don't want you didn't want one.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

I didn't want one at all. But it was really good. Like I actually cried when I read the card. It was sad.

unknown 3:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

But I'm still in there and I'll still be covering the psych ward, like covering the floor when they need help. Oh, also, I think we should mention that we got tickets to BookCon. Oh, yeah, we're going to BookCon. So we're going to BookCon in April, guys. I don't know if anyone's going that's listening. But yeah, but if you're going and you want to meet us for some strange reason, then like let us know. Hit us up. Yeah, that would be awesome. Yeah. But if and if we're going both days, so like don't start flooding our inboxes. Like, um, what day will you be there? Yeah, because we're so famous. We can't handle it. We can't handle yeah, we can't handle the fame yet. Like, yeah, and we're getting so we are we do have like a five-star rating on Apple Podcast though, so like we are kind of famous. Thank you, thank you. It was probably me. No, no, no, well, thank you. Yeah, no, yeah. Um, so what episode is this?

SPEAKER_03 4:52

This is emotional cover charge.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

What the hell does that even mean? Okay, before we get into the book dynamics, we have to name this thing. Because people have definitely felt this, they just don't have the words for it. An emotional cover charge is the invisible cost you pay just to be around someone. It's the emotional prep work you're doing before the interaction even starts. You haven't even seen them yet, and you're already adjusting your tone, your words, your energy. And if you leave feeling drained instead of connected, anxious instead of grounded, or like you had to perform, you probably paid an emotional cover charge. And nothing bad even had to happen. You're just tired and you don't know why. Because you rehearsed, you braced, you managed. And you needed recovery time after. That's when connection starts to feel like work instead of presence. And this is why books are so good for this. Because fiction makes this pattern loud. In real life, this feeling is vague. It's just, why am I so tired around this person? But in books, you literally watch the character brace before a conversation. You see them rehearse what they're gonna say, you feel their anxiety before the interaction even happens, and you see the emotional recovery after. Books slow the moment down enough for us to actually see the emotional labor happening. And while we're reading it, our body goes, Oh, I know this feeling. And that's when you realize this isn't just about the character, it's about people we've known. It's like that saying that goes, like, if you start typing out the text message to someone in the notes app, that relationship is over already. Oh yeah, you know, yeah, because like you're rehearsing what you're gonna say, and to the point where you know you're gonna delete so much that it's gonna look like your little bubbles are up, like you're typing for a long time versus putting it in your notes, like because that's scary. What if you send it? You would be like, Oh my god, oh my you know, yeah. So yeah, no, and it's again, it's that that prep work, right? And just like feeling anxious, like you know, like we were saying, just feeling anxious and like nervous and walking on eggshells and worrying and overthinking, like those are all such red flags that like I ignore, I'll be honest.

SPEAKER_03 7:16

Yeah, you know, we ignore them, and then at the end we're drained and we're like, how the hell did we get here?

SPEAKER_01 7:22

So yeah. Okay, so let's talk about who was paying this emotional bill because the books we picked, they were expensive. Today I'm going to discuss The Plated Prisoner, which is a six-book Dark Fantasy romance series by Raven Kennedy. It's a reimagining of the King Midas myth from the perspective of his captive, Orin. Oh my god. Yes. So yeah. This was so hard not to pick this. Yeah. Because it's like right. It felt like low-hanging fruit. Yes. And I grabbed it. Yes. Yeah, yeah. As you should. Because I'm so like, I just felt it for her. And you know, this is the perfect timing. I know we didn't finish the book yet, but the what I'm talking about is happening, it already happened. Also, this whole series, we're just gonna come back to for other things because there's so much going on. So yeah. Alright, yes. Okay, um, here's a quick book summary for those of you who haven't read the Play to Prisoner series or just need a little refresher, and you can take this moment to decide whether or not you want to be spoiled, but as usual, I won't really be talking much about the plot, just kind of about Orin and King Midas' relationship. Alright, so Orin is introduced to us as a woman living in a gilded cage, literally and emotionally. She's King Midas' favorite consort, surrounded by gold, luxury, and protection. From the outside, her life looks enviable. She's kept safe from the world, treasured, and set apart. Midas positions himself as her savior, the man who rescued her from unimaginable trauma and gave her a life of comfort and security. But Orin's safety comes at a cost. Dun dun dun. Oh boy, does it? She has no freedom of movement, no autonomy over her body or her choices, and very little contact with the outside world that isn't filtered through Midas. Her role is defined entirely by her relationship to him. Her worth is measured by her compliance, her gratitude, and her willingness to remain exactly where she's placed. Midas frames this arrangement as love. I fucking hate him. Okay, Kate. I think I mentioned this last week too. I know how much you hate him. He reminds Orin often that everything she has is because of him, that the world is dangerous, that she wouldn't survive without his protection. Over time, Orin internalizes this narrative. She believes her survival is proof of his love, and her loyalty is the price she owes in return. What makes this dynamic so powerful and so unsettling is that Orin doesn't initially see herself as trapped. She sees herself as lucky. As the series unfolds, cracks begin to form in that story. Orin is forced to confront moments where protection looks a lot like possession and love begins to resemble control. The very thing she was told kept her safe starts to feel suffocating. And slowly she begins to question whether survival inside a cage is really safety at all. At its core, Orin and Midas' relationship isn't a love story. It's a study in coercive control, trauma bonding, and what happens when gratitude is used to erase choice. And that's why their dynamic works so well for emotional cover charge. Because nothing here is overt at first. The harm is polished, the cage is gold, and the cost isn't obvious until you realize how much of yourself you've given up just to stay alive. So with Orin coming into my office for therapy, it's clearly after she like already escaped her cage and is no longer a prisoner. So let me tell you a little bit about how she got to the point before she could actually sit for therapy. Orin's freedom doesn't come from one dramatic act, it comes from clarity. She realizes the protection she was given was conditional and that she survived despite the cage, not because of it. Leaving doesn't make her feel strong right away. It feels disorienting. She has to grieve the version of herself that stayed alive by shrinking. Her healing isn't linear. She doubts herself and sometimes misses what felt familiar. But the shift happens when she starts choosing herself, listening to her instincts, reclaiming consent, and trusting her own voice. By the time Orin truly steps into herself, she no longer measures love by endurance. Her story wasn't about escaping a cage, it's about realizing she never belonged in one. So here I'm gonna list the emotional cover charge and I'll break it down as we get into her treatment plan. So I'm gonna say that Orin's emotional cover charge is safety at the price of autonomy, protection that becomes possession, gratitude used as a leash, and trauma bonding disguised as loyalty. So if we're thinking an entry fee, what she thinks she's paying for essentially is safety, belonging, yeah, being chosen, right, and gratitude for survival.

SPEAKER_04 12:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

And it's so wild because I remember reading this and I was like, and I asked you in the beginning, like, okay, so like would you rather be locked up in this cage in this castle or like be outside free? Because like we have everything we want here, right? Yeah, we have all the gold, all the but like would I be a saddle? Because well, you would be the favorite, like exactly in her position, right?

SPEAKER_03 12:41

And at first I was like, Yeah, hell yeah, but I don't have to worry about anything.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

And then when she broke out, yeah, or and then other stuff started happening outside of the castle, I was like, no, see, this is why I would have stayed my ass right where I was because I can't deal with outside life. So yeah, yeah, and that's what he was doing. He was making her pay. So Orin's entry fee, which is what she thinks she's paying for, is the safety, belonging, being chosen, and gratitude for survival. Now the hidden fees, which is what it actually costs, her voice, choice, bodily autonomy, reality testing, and identity outside of him. And I'd say the fine print, and this is the manipulation itself, I saved you. You're safe is with me. This is love. Her exit costs, which is what it takes to leave, unlearning loyalty to harm, grief for the version of herself that survived by complying, fear of freedom, and rage she was never allowed to feel. She had a pretty hefty bill. And I know we discussed like the pain in the plot. And even though I was onto him from the beginning, like I'll say I didn't I did believe she was kind of lucky, you know. Like when I first started reading it, and she was just telling us like how she loves him, and he built her this beautiful walkway as if it's like something right. We're seeing it like as like an introduction, we don't know what's going on behind because like I'm like, oh my god, he really does love her. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 14:22

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, but then I got carried away in her emotional cover charge that you were like, bitch, hello, yeah, you're missing what's going on. And I'm like, no, like whatever.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

Yeah, very much.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

All right, so then maybe you can take some um tips from this treatment book.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

All right, perfect. Let's hear it.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

All right, let's hear if I did do these things. Let's see. Okay, so this is what I would do, and if I'm being a therapist here, and if I'm like your best friend, then this is probably what I told you to do if you were ever in this situation. That's it, because you don't sugarcoat it, and I love it. No, so okay, her presenting problem, relational trauma rooted in coercive control, trauma bonding, and identity erosion following prolonged captivity and manipulation by King Midas. Well right, now for the case conceptualization, which is, if you all remember, is how we understand the problem. Case conceptualization. Okay, big words. Orange symptoms are not signs of weakness, they're adaptive responses to prolonged threat. What looks like loyalty is actually conditioned attachment under coercion. What looks like gratitude is fear management. What looks like passivity is strategic survival. That part of the first book where she was told to play a harp and let the men talk or whatever. I feel like that is strategic survival because I would have fucking flipped out. Yeah. But she kept her composure, she went, she did her thing. That's a lot of surviving. And treatment isn't about empowering her too fast, it's about restoring choice without overwhelming the system. Oh, it's so important.

SPEAKER_03 16:07

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

So, yeah, those are the things I would start to think about for her. So, here are the treatment goals, and keep in mind it's for this situation, and the longer she comes to therapy, we can always adjust those goals. So, you might hear us speak about some of these characters in another session, and the goals are completely different. Just like in real life therapy, just because you come to see a therapist for one situation doesn't mean that for the life of your relationship with that therapist, that's all you have to come and talk about. Right. Short-term goals, increase sense of internal safety, reduce shame around survival behaviors because you know, with her, she had so much shame on how she had to leave, how she had to survive in that last moment, yeah, you know, where she really had to go in. Right. That was that was intense. So we would um reduce shame around that and strengthen reality testing, and we would do that by asking, like, was this love or control? So for her long-term goals, rebuild identity separate from the abuser, reclaim autonomy and consent, develop secure attachment patterns, tolerate freedom without panic. Yeah, because we don't need her sabotaging her relationship with King Rot, thinking about, you know, thinking about her and King Minus. Yeah, you know that oh my god, that's so she's gonna be. It's so crazy patterns. We we yeah, sorry. I just um lost her words right now because this is so deep.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

And then, you know, like the longer it takes for her to basically change, you know, like feel better just about the situation. It's like as a reader of a book, right? You're like, oh, I gotta listen to this whole thing, and she's in bed forever and she hates everyone. I'm like, come on, get back to the book. Me too. Sometimes I do that also. I feel like I need to appreciate though that she's taking her time and it's like a real thing. But yeah, it feels like sometimes I've read books where a whole half of the book they're you know, and I'm just like, damn, we're missing it. And then we get some action at the end, and then it's like right, now we gotta wait for the next book. Yeah, no, I get like that too. Like, and how dare I rush these people through their healing when in real life, like it takes years sometimes. So I'm reading like the same thing, like you said, like, oh, and I just couldn't, and I wouldn't, and I couldn't get out of bed, and I couldn't do this, and I still can't eat, and it's three weeks later. I'm like, all right, let's fucking go with some book. Like, yeah, but how dare we rush who dare we rush them?

SPEAKER_03 18:41

Yeah, but we have we have more respect for these characters now that we're doing this.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

And listen, we're not complaining, so yeah. No, we're not gonna authors listening. Keep those books coming because it's like we're the ones coming back to those books that people are like going through their traumas, right? And I think that's a lot of the reason why people were like, Oh, the first book isn't great, but keep hanging on. I thought the first book was amazing because they said that about Crescent City too. Yeah, it's because people don't appreciate what's the emotion and what's really going on, and if you're not reading them what are we talking about?

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Plated prism.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Oh, yeah, guild. Yeah, no, but after I read the second or third, I was like, Yeah, I can see more why they didn't like that because but I still enjoyed it. I just feel like if you're and like whatever, read however you're reading, right? But you have to have some emotional reaction to what's going on.

SPEAKER_03 19:40

Because like then what like what?

SPEAKER_04 19:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:42

What are you really like what? You're just reading words on a page, like pages.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

You're just wasting time.

SPEAKER_03 19:48

You're just wasting time. Read correctly, people. Okay, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Do it again. Alright, so that's what we would do to treat. Oh, those will be her goals. So let's really quickly break down the cover charge so that we can be as effective as possible when treating this client. At the door, Orin believes she's paying for safety, for survival, for being chosen. She thinks the price is gratitude. But once she's inside, the hidden fees begin to add up. Her voice, her autonomy, her ability to question what's happening to her, her right to decide what happens to her body and her life, and slowly, almost imperceptibly, her belief that she exists outside of him. Because what keeps Orin trapped isn't just fear, it's meaning. When someone survives something unbearable, the mind looks for a story that makes the pain worth it. Like this had to happen. Had to happen. Like this had to happen for a reason. He saved me. I survived because of him. And once suffering becomes meaningful, leaving can feel like erasing the reason you're still alive. That's the deeper emotional cover charge here. Midas does Midas doesn't just control Orin's environment, he controls the narrative. I saved you becomes you owe me. You're safe is with me becomes you're not allowed anywhere else. And this is love becomes control, reframed as protection. This is coercive control, where harm is softened with gifts and survival is confused with loyalty. Over time, Orin learns the rules that keep her alive, compliance keeps the peace, silence keeps her safe, gratitude keeps her protected. So anger starts to feel ungrateful, wanting more feels like betrayal, and resistance feels reckless. The emotional cover charge here isn't paid all at once. It's paid slowly, in pieces, until the person paying forgets they've ever had a choice. And when it comes time to leave, the exit fee is staggering. Leaving doesn't just cause safety, it causes certainty. It caused the story you were told about why you survive. It costs the version of yourself that you learn how to endure instead of resist because the real question isn't can I survive without you? It's if you weren't the reason I lived, then what was? That question can be terrifying, and healing often looks messy because of it. You can miss someone who harmed you. You can grieve a relationship that was never healthy. You can feel loyal to a version of yourself that adapted in order to survive. None of that means you're weak. It means you were human and you did what you had to do with the power you had at the time. So this isn't a story about whether King Midas loved Orin. That question doesn't actually matter. What matters is what love demanded she give up to stay alive. And finally, the prognosis. Healing is nonlinear. Missing the abuser doesn't mean the abuse wasn't real. Grieving the relationship doesn't mean it was healthy. Progress would look like choosing discomfort over captivity, trusting yourself before trusting others, and letting survival become living. And if this feels uncomfortably familiar, let me say this clearly: you are not dramatic for questioning the cost. You are not ungrateful for wanting more, and you are not wrong for outgrowing something that once kept you alive. Because survival is not the same as safety, and love should never require you to disappear or to like to just earn it. Sometimes the bravest thing a person can do is stop paying a cover charge they were never meant to afford. Alright, Nerisa, who's on your couch today? Well, first of all, before we get into my thing, that last part was like it really hit.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

I left for the heard and I left what I think.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Thank you, thank you. No, it's real. And those wanna talk about it? Yeah, I mean, those are the things that you said to me when I was going through what I was going through. And it was a constant reminder. Like you reminded me, and not in like an aggressive way. And that's one thing that I love about you. You're like, you know, live your life, but I'm gonna still tell you that you're the prize, and you know, all those things. And you know, you constantly reminding me of that is what made me realize those things exactly as you put them. That like you can you don't need to pay an emotional cover charge. You know, so thank you for that.

SPEAKER_03 24:22

Really hit well thank you the word the way you worded it really hit because like I hope it hit for you guys too, because some of y'all need to hear that.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

And listen, this is just proof, like this is real, like in real-time proof that yeah, we're not just up here reading our notes that we wrote for you, and this is like real stuff, like this is what I would actually work on with a client, yeah, and not to say you were my client by any means, you're my friend, and we're talking about like I'm going through this, what should I do? Like, this is what I would say because like this is what I believe in. So trust us. That's it. Yeah, in therapy and outside of therapy, trust us. Yes, okay, so maybe not outside of therapy because we make some decisions. We do, but yeah, I wouldn't will anyone to make those decisions. Okay, so today on my couch we have Elspeth. Ooh, I love her, and we have the nightmare. Are they coming together?

SPEAKER_03 25:22

So, guys, I do not pick a couple or an interaction with someone else. Sometimes we pay our own emotional cover charge, and I'm going with that.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

So, this is about one person with another entity attached to it and how like you can really be fighting yourself.

SPEAKER_04 25:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

So here we go.

SPEAKER_03 25:47

So this character is from the book One Dark Window and Two Toast Crowns by Rachel Gillig. And we love her and her books, all of them.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

And we'll see her at BookCon. Yes! Oh my god. Oh, I gotta get my book. I'm gonna bring her like all my copies.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

My special editions.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Yeah, you're gonna just bring us all my two copies.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

Just bring your suitcase. Suitcase. Oh, I forgot about that.

SPEAKER_03 26:17

Never get pets.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Okay. One Dark Window takes place in a mist locked kingdom where magic is feared and controlled through a deck of ancient Providence cards. Ugh, I'm just smiling because I remember reading this and loving it. If you guys are fan of magic systems, definitely recommend. Okay, these cards grant powers by using them, but using them comes at a cost. The kingdom hunts those who carry too much magic, believing they are dangerous and unstable. Elspeth Spindle has lived her entire life hiding a secret that would make her a target. As a child, she was infected by a magical illness that should have killed her. Instead, she survived but not alone. Something ancient and powerful took root inside her mind. She calls it the nightmare. Every time I say the nightmare, I think of the little thing you have on your bookshelf that we call the nightmare. Yeah, my 3D um wait. So I just want to say that I Elspeth is different, like the word, the name, but I'd I'd prefer that to Gambrielle. You know, it's easier to digest. But Elspeth, yeah. Like instead of Elizabeth. I like Elspeth.

SPEAKER_04 27:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

Okay. The nightmare is always with her. It speaks to her, comments on her life, and shares her thoughts. Sometimes it protects her, sometimes it frightens her, but it never leaves. Elspeth has grown up learning how to live with this presence without letting anyone see it. From the outside, she appears quiet, cautious, and observant. On the inside, she's never fully at rest. She is constantly aware of what she's thinking, feeling, and reacting because she shares her mind with something unpredictable. She has to monitor herself at all times to make sure the nightmare doesn't take too much control. This is where the emotional cover charge lives. Not in a relationship with another person, but in the relationship Elspeth has with her own mind. She cannot fully relax, she cannot fully let her guard down, she's always bracing internally in a way no one else can see. Okay. So presenting problem and core themes, Elspeth presents with chronic emotional vigilance that is quiet but constant. She's never fully at ease because she must always be aware of what's happening inside her own thoughts. Her primary coping strategy becomes control of what she says, of how she reacts, and how much space she allows herself to take up emotionally. Before we look at some of the core themes, it's important to understand that Elspeth is not reacting to an external threat. She's reacting to something internal, which makes this version of emotional cover charge deeply psychological and very relatable to real life experiences of anxiety, overthinking, and mental hyper awareness. Hello, I have all of those prime memberships at Narisa. So some of these core themes include emotional bracing, hypervigilance, loss of internal safety, monitoring herself constantly, quiet mental exhaustion, feeling alone even when not alone. That feeling alone, even when not alone, child, I have experienced. Yeah. You know, so there we go. Emotional. It's a relationship. It is. Yeah. It is. One with yourself, even. And sometimes those are the most difficult ones. I really do believe that. Because you can't sit with yourself. You can't, yeah. You just can't. Yeah. It's the most difficult one. There's nowhere to go. Like you can't, because you can't run away from yourself. So, and I know I've said this before. We don't show up for ourselves as much as we show up for other people because there's no sense of abandonment with ourselves, right? So we can't leave and go anywhere. But on the flip side of it, right? Now yourself, after all that happened, you have to face yourself and say, I didn't do what I was supposed to do. Now look at me, I'm 20 pounds heavier, you know, or I didn't do what I was supposed to do. Now I'm in this relationship. Right. So it's like I feel like with Elspeth in her situation, without giving anything away, it's like at some point, at one point, this entity is within her, it's in her head until at some point it takes over. Right. You know, so it's like you're facing your shit, and like I felt it on that level as I was reading it. And I don't know if that's how it I guess when you read it's meant how it's meant, how you interpret it. Yeah. But that's how I kind of feel about the situation. Right. Your shit comes back to you. Yeah, and you can run from it as long as you want, but it's going to come back to you. So you have to sit with your shit. And like, I think that's one of the things, and I think I mentioned it in villains, is that like I'll say I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, and I'm not fine. And it comes back to me. But it also comes out to protect you, right? Right. Like, so that's and that's what defensive. That's what the monster. Yeah, what's his name? The monster. The nightmare. I forgot, but that's what the nightmare was doing, right? Like protecting her and coming out because yeah, yeah, yeah. So the treatment goals and objectives. The primary goal of treatment would be helping Elspeth feel safe inside her own mind. Hello, like what you were just thinking. Exactly. She does not need to escape her situation as much as she needs relief from the constant internal tension she carries. And there you go, guys. You can't escape it. Like you said, it's with you. It's going to be with you.

SPEAKER_04 32:18

Yeah, you predicted that.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

You had no idea. She had no idea what my own. I can't see her nose. So, yep. Before outlining objectives, it's helpful to recognize how much energy she spends simply managing her thoughts. Therapy would focus on helping her reclaim a sense of calm and ownership over her own mental space. So, objectives would be reducing constant mental vigilance, increasing her ability to relax internally, helping her separate her identity from the nightmare, building internal emotional safety, and allowing herself to exist without bracing. So, some possible interventions. Um, because Elspeth's struggle is internal rather than situational, interventions would focus heavily on helping her change her relationship to her thoughts rather than trying to eliminate them. And I think that is so real in real life. Cause it's we have all these thoughts, right? And like we may never get rid of them, but at least we can manage them better. Yeah. And that essentially is a lot of the work in therapy. Absolutely. Um, especially pertaining to ourselves. Well, and other people too. Um, these approaches would help her feel less controlled by what's happening in her mind and more grounded in herself. So trauma-informed therapy to address chronic internal stress, mindfulness practices, DBT, to observe thoughts without reacting. She needs a lot of mindfulness. Yep. Emotional regulation emotion regulation skills to help reduce hyper-awareness and developing a sense of psychological calm and internal safety. Okay, and the outcome. So as the story progresses, Elspeth begins to understand the nightmare rather than constantly fighting it. Yay! The tension lessens when she stops trying to control every thought and instead learns the dynamic between them. From a treatment perspective, this mirrors what happens when someone learns they do not have to brace themselves constantly. Relief comes from understanding, acceptance, and internal safety rather than elimination of the stressor. So that is what I have for my case. Nice. Oh right. I loved doing that, and like I was thinking about so many couples and other dynamics, and then I'm like, yeah, the relationship with yourself can absolutely be emotionally draining. So that's like I'd say the most powerful relationship that you can have, and you need to cherish that. Yep, yeah, work on yourself. Alright, is it time for treatment team meeting? Alright, treatment team meeting. Clip force. We're not judging the relationship, we're just diagnosing the emotional cost. Alright. Right. So have you ever had to emotionally prepare before seeing someone? Yeah. Yeah. I do that all the time because I have anxiety and I overthink everything and it's freaking exhausting. So yeah, I have. I have. Yeah. I do sometimes. Like, I guess it just depends on the personal situation. Like, yeah, you know, like not for here. Like, I'm not preparing what I'm gonna say to see you. It's just random, like yeah, whatever. Right. But in real life, in those interactions, okay. It's exhausting. Have you ever rehearsed what you were gonna say? Like how you were gonna say it, what tone you were gonna need? Yeah, if it's a really serious conversation, then I'm already just anxious. You're anxious now.

SPEAKER_03 36:24

Um yeah, I'm anxious right now.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

I'm preparing, but yeah, um, I have a lot of anxiety having serious conversations, especially when I have to set boundaries. So I rehearsed, I rehearsed my tone.

SPEAKER_03 36:38

I'm trying to be mindful, like I'm doing DBT, like dear man and shit. So it's a lot of preparation. Yeah, how about you?

SPEAKER_01 36:48

No, yeah, I have. I've rehearsed what I was gonna say just like for really important things. Yeah, you know, like when even sometimes when I'm just advocating for myself, yeah, in any relationship, any situation, like I want to make sure that if I have important shit to say, I'm not gonna forget it. Right, you know, so yeah, and you want it to benefit you, right? When when it comes out, right? Yeah, I have a good question for you. Yeah, have you ever needed recovery time after being around someone you care about? Yeah, yeah. Sometimes I can't wait for the time to end with the situation so I can go be alone and fuck off and process it. Alone time, yeah. And it's wild because well, we're both like this, but like if we have a bad interaction, like we shut down and then we gotta push through, like you know, and but this is like personal stuff, not like at work or oh yeah, not at all, yeah, not in therapy, like if one of our patients has something and we're like, you know what, just go yeah. We're talking about personal, right? Right. Yeah, we have patience for the most part for work, and we have the skills, but there are times when you don't need to use it. Maybe you want to feel what you were feeling just to see, like, mm-hmm, what was this like right, what's going on with me? Maybe there's something deeper, like, you know, you gotta investigate sometimes. You can't just put up the skill and be like, oh, a feeling came, boom, I don't want to feel this. Right. You know, yeah. Sometimes well, not sometimes, most of the time you need to feel it. Yeah, at least a little bit. Don't let it linger because then that's just irresponsible because you know this the skills. Right. Okay. Alright. Well, have you ever felt responsible for someone else's mood in a relationship? Uh yeah. Yeah. But not much because it only took me like a few times of feeling that feel-in to realize I don't want to feel that anymore. Yeah. Yeah, I think um when codependency comes in the picture, it's constantly feeling that way. Um, which is very, very draining and difficult. And yeah. So yeah, and it's like if they're in a bad mood, like now you gotta fix it, right?

SPEAKER_03 39:12

If they're whatever, now you gotta fix it. Like, how do I get this person in a better mood?

SPEAKER_01 39:16

And like the how does that feel like in your body? Like when you're around someone you have to brace for. Oh my god, it's constant anxiety. Just like on edge all the time, on eggshells, like worrying, like you know, it's it feels terrible. I hate it. Yep. Okay, well, how do you like what does it feel like in your body when you're around someone emotionally safe? Exactly like that, like what I just said. Like you can just take a breath out and just relax and not have to worry, and it just feels so good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:58

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

Yep. Alright, last question. How do you know when the emotional cover charge is too expensive? Well, I have had to learn that, as we all do. Um, but now if I look at it, the emotional cover charge for me is too expensive when I feel like I'm repeating behaviors or meet being met with inconsistencies, and I feel like I'm trying to do too much saving and fixing. And when I start doing that, that's when I know, like, nah, this is I can't can't do that. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. I think for me, it's like as soon as I question myself the first time, like if I'm like, what what is this? And I know I've said that to you before, like, what am I doing here? Like, what is what's what am I doing? Yeah. So the first time I question that, like, anything after that, like, if I stick around, it's like I have to justify because I've already come to the realization and I'm choosing this. Right. So, like, I don't know, it just yeah, just from that first moment. That's how you know it's just too much.

SPEAKER_03 41:11

And I think the important thing for everyone is that you know when the emotional coverage is too expensive, when you start ignoring red flags, maybe and and there's not like listen, if there's a red flag and you can communicate about it and it can be addressed, then that's different, you know?

SPEAKER_01 41:29

Because some red flags can be fixed or resolved or whatever, and some of them can't. So yeah. So treatment team conclusion? The emotional bill is on paid. Alright, so right, we're gonna have some fun mini segments, like always. So here we go. Alright, so the moment it clicked, the moment in the story where I realized, oh, this this person is exhausted. Um for me, I think I kind of mentioned it like earlier, like back when I was describing something, that I started to realize that Orin was tired, like when the whole King Falk situation uh happened. Yeah, like wow, that was really early too. Yeah. Because that's when King Midas was talking to her, like, back up, do do your thing, you're gonna do this. Yeah, he could take you for 24 hours or whatever it was supposed to be. Like, and she's like, You're gonna let this man touch me? And she just that's when I think she was exhausted. No, you know what? That's when I think she was tired because, like you said, that was early on. When I think she was exhausted, is like when he tried to put her back in the cage after she had already been with Daddy Rat. Oh my god. Yeah, King Rat's army. Because you remember she was at the cage door and he was like, I'm gonna put you in here. She's like, Why? I don't want to be in here, I don't need to be in here anymore. Right, like that was it for her. I think that's when it started to click. Yeah, yeah. What about you? Honestly, I don't remember. When it started to click for Elspeth? Yeah. I think I think it was when it physically started to take more of her, right? Oh yeah, she had I yeah, I think when um she was fighting it more frequently and it was getting stronger and stronger too. Um yeah, I think it's a little bit more. When she went in the dungeon and then like the ass just turned and he took over. So that I think I was trying to remember which book, but I think that was like the end in the beginning. Oh like the end of the first book. I just love that book, how we get like his story, like the monster. I keep calling the monster the nightmare, like him being I won't spoil that, but his story. The line that gave it away. I think you just answered mine actually for me when she was in the dungeon. Yeah. And the thing just took over completely, and now she's really gone. Yeah. She's really gone and she has to fight to bring herself back to the forefront. So yeah. Yeah. Fighting for yourself is not always easy. It's not. I mean, is it ever really easy? No. No. But it but it becomes more manageable. Oh yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:18

Sorry. Just giving hope. No, no, no, you're fine. But you made a good point though. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

What about you, Frau Armin? I think I answered my question in the last question. It's like where she was telling King Midas, like the line that gave it away, because like I said, it was she was tired before, but then she was exhausted when she was like, I'm not going back in there. And then she like went and she slept in a room. Yeah. You know, that was good shit. Alright, now this is a rapid fire emotional charge. Okay, so we're just gonna ask questions and we gotta talk about a character. Yeah. Okay. Who needed a nap after every interaction? Elspeth for sure. Orin. Yeah. Who was emotionally embracing before conversations even started? I think both. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Who was monitoring their tone the most? Orin, apparently. Yeah. Because Elspeth is talking to herself. Yeah, she doesn't have a tone. Yeah. But the nightmare has a tone. I wonder if she's a tone in his head. That's true. But it's a good point. Okay. What's that? Who needed recovery time after being around someone? Both of them. Yeah, I think Elspeth mostly. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. Because it's inside of her head. Who looked the most emotionally tired without saying it? Elspeth. Yeah. Yeah, because Orin just always was glistening and glimmering. Um, okay. Who thought this was just normal for relationships? Oren. Orin. Wait, did I mention that um Orin is gold? All gold? I didn't even mention that. I don't think so. That's interesting. I would let her sit anywhere on my couch. I'll be like, girl, come home with me. Right. I think everything you touch turns gold. No. Yeah. I'd be like, just pay me by coming to therapy. Yeah, that's true. But yeah, okay, sorry. So yeah, definitely Orin thought that was the most normal. I agree. Um, who was doing the most emotional labor silently? Elspeth. Yeah, for sure. Okay. Who stopped being fully themselves? Ellie. Yeah. Who felt responsible for someone else's emotions? Orin. Orin. Yeah. Yeah. Who confused emotional intensity with connection? Orin. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Who would feel the most relief if emotional safety was present? Elsa. Yeah, Elspeth. Yeah. Who was paying the highest emotional cover charge? Yikes. That's a tough one. I say we shouldn't compete in the matters. We can't actually, because one's internal and one's external. Alright. I say Orin then. Alright. Well, I say Elspeth. Alright. I hate you. Podcast's over. Okay, whatever. We can fight. Alright. Alright. Any um honorable mentions of emotional cover charges of other people we can think about? Oh, so many people.

SPEAKER_03 47:21

Everybody. Bye. We're done.

SPEAKER_01 47:25

Yeah. And I I don't know. I don't want people to think like I'm obsessed with Caden for any reason. But like I just love that series. You're obsessed with Caden. By accident. By accident. No, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:37

Honestly, this is the most you've ever talked about Caden in life.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

In life, yeah. He's just a good example because he's so fucking ugh. Yeah. You know? But like him and Diana back in the day when she was like with him, not with him. Yeah. Um, it's like that emotional cover charge was intense because like she was literally doing it to keep her sister safe. So you think about that and you're like, the shit she had to put up with just to be around him, like to tolerate, just to be around him because she had to. Right. It wasn't. Yeah. Yeah. So I can't really listen. I have people in mind, but I also love them together because they all ended up together, so I can't really don't like ruin it. I know. But what about like I'm not gonna say names? I'm just saying, like I was gonna pick specific. Oh, but yeah. Um honestly though, um So I even think that what's her name? This is horrible. Cause I've been saying Orin all all all what is this? A shift? All episode. Yeah. Um Aileen. Fucking how can I forget? It's time for a throw in a glass reread. I'm disappointed in myself. Okay. So I feel like you call everybody Ailen. Because I call everybody Ailen. I really whatever female character is in my book like the main female character. Yeah, I'm thinking Diana was Ailen.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:09

Like whoever my girl is in the book, that's Ailen because Ailen is the one. Ailen is you don't know.

SPEAKER_03 49:15

Fucking go read a book for real after this episode, though.

SPEAKER_01 49:19

But I feel like there's definitely a cover charge to be around Ailen, and not necessarily in a horrible way, but like she's I'm I don't want to ruin it, but she's she's she's a big deal. She's a big deal. She's a big deal. So like you being around her, and you could also be a uh you're a kind of big deal, but you're not you're not the biggest. No, right, you're not the biggest, yeah. So it's like just kind of humbling yourself, like that's even a thing, and right, you know, you could be king, but like, hello, she's it's so funny. Assassin, it's so funny you said that because I have Kale here because my little sister used to be Kale, my little sister used to be Chow. Chow. Yeah, just Kale dealing with Ailen and knowing Ailen from a younger version of Ailen and an older version of Ailen. I can't wait to talk about Ailen. Oh my god. I mean, we're talking about her right now, but yeah, we are you know in a deeper capacity. Yeah, Ailen is God here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:23

God tier Pierre. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

Um, yeah, even Farah and Tamlin too. I know I mentioned Farah and Tamlin, but I think Farah and Tamlin when Reese entered the picture. Yeah. Like, she didn't want to be a hair anymore. But also it was Reese and Farah because she was like, oh, this, you know. Uh another person that I had thought about was Violet Soringale and the people around her, like, they're all paying emotional cover charges because it's her and yeah, she's a star. She's a star. I guess if you're a star. Oops. Sorry. I'm not gonna say anything else. Well, also, if you haven't read Yeah, if you haven't read the first book, come on.

SPEAKER_03 51:13

If you haven't read any of these books we're talking about, like, why are we?

SPEAKER_01 51:17

Like a major disclaimer that says, listen, we're just like we read a lot and we've we're gonna talk about the books that we read. Yeah. Like, no offense.

SPEAKER_03 51:25

I'm not putting on fucking disclaimer because this is a podcast about fantasy books and therapy. Yeah, so clearly we read them, the most important ones.

SPEAKER_01 51:35

Yeah, but like also no shade, like because we love that journey for you if you're just starting. Oh my god, yeah. We're so jealous. Write us and tell us what you think about the books. We're so jealous, yeah. And if you would diagnose, well, y'all probably shouldn't be diagnosing unless you're therapist, yeah. But like diagnose on your own and he's like, yeah, like on your own, yeah. But also, like maybe you want to be a therapist, or like diagnose yourself, but don't do that for real, you know. Just for the you know what? I'm done giving advice, guys.

SPEAKER_03 52:09

She's actually not a therapist, she's she's pretending. Remember that time I had to oh my god, you guys. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 52:22

I had to pretend to be a sex therapist one time, but like also I wasn't really pretending because I'm actually a therapist and and we can talk about whatever anything, right? It wasn't that hard, but um, it was fun, yeah, interesting. I'd do it again. 10 out of 10, recommend. Good. I might have you do it again now. Alright, guys, so as usual, we're gonna give you a little teaser of our next episode. Oh, is it time for a teaser already? It is. Alright, so we've talked villains, we've talked emotional cover charges. Now we're talking about the men who set the bar impossibly high. The book boyfriends, the fantasy men, the emotionally aware warriors. Yes. Sorry, I just got really excited. Yes, and what they reveal about what we really want. Who were you just thinking about?

SPEAKER_03 53:23

Well, you'll have to come back next week to find out. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

Alright, because maybe it's not unrealistic. Maybe it's the bare minimum. Alright, so tune in next week to find out what the hell we're talking about. Alright. That's it for the session. See you next week. We want you to be a part of this world with us. Send us your book recommendations, character obsessions, or topics you want us to cover. You can find us on Instagram and TikTok at once upon. What are you laughing at?

SPEAKER_03 54:02

What? No. Because last week it took 10 hours to get to the email. Okay. You can find us on Instagram. I will not do what you did last week. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 54:12

You can find us on Instagram and TikTok at once upon a session pod. That's once upon a session pod. Or email us at info at once. No, I promise I'm not doing it. Okay. There was just a lot of pressure that first time. Okay. Or email us at yes, we're doing it. No. Or email us at info at onceuponhecessionpod.com if you want to share thoughts, suggestions, or just scream about a plot twist with us. So are we charging for this session? Emotionally? Always. See you next session. Same couch, same chaos. Bye guys. Get ready for the pot booksman. Bye.