Session 4: Fictional Men & Real Standards

Welcome back to Once Upon a Session — where stories meet healing.

Let’s be honest: fantasy men have been setting the bar way too high… or maybe exactly where it should be.

In this session, Vanessa and Nareesa unpack why we fall for fictional archetypes — and what those crushes actually reveal about our real-world desires and emotional needs.

We’re talking attraction, projection, and the psychology behind our favorite literary love interests. Consider this a guided conversation on attachment styles, fantasy fulfillment, and why we deserve soft love off the page, too.

Because it’s not that our standards are unrealistic — it’s that real men could stand to read more fiction.

Disclaimer: We’re licensed therapists, but we’re not your therapists. Everything shared here is for conversation, reflection, and entertainment.

✨ Follow Once Upon a Session for new episodes exploring stories, psychology, and healing.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Be honest, have you ever looked at a man in real life and thought you would not survive in a fantasy? Like, sir, you wouldn't make it past chapter three. And the wild part is the bar we're comparing them to isn't even real. Resan, Kingfisher, Cassian. These men do not exist, and yet somehow the standard does. So today we're talking about book boyfriends, projection, and why too much to ask might actually be the bare minimum. This is Once Upon a Session, where two therapists turn their TBR pile into treatment plans, and every story becomes a session. I'm Vanessa and I'm Nerisa, and I like my men with pointed ears. Alright, guys. Just a quick note before we dive in. We're both licensed therapists, but we're not your therapist. Everything we share here is for conversation, reflection, and maybe a little inspiration. But it's not a substitute for therapy. If you're struggling, please reach out to a mental health professional who can give you the care and support you deserve. Now that you're all checked in, have a seat on our couch. Alright, welcome back. Welcome back. Today we are very excited. Why are we excited, Renee? Because I'm sorry, you guys don't they don't know that I call you Renee. Oh yeah. So I don't ever call her Vanessa. I call her Renee. So if you hear that, then just it's me. It's still the same person.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

It's well.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Okay, why are we excited?

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Because our man's are here. Our six foot thirteen. Yeah. Six foot thirteen. Faye.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

We're talking about some men today. We're talking about our book boyfriends. Our book boyfriends, which we have several of them, and we shall mention them honorably. Yeah. So there's a reason people feel emotionally attached to fictional characters, and it's not because we're delusional. Well, maybe. It's because authors write men from a woman's emotional perspective. These characters don't just exist in a plot, they exist in an emotional experience. They notice things, they remember things, they respond to things. And that's what feels so real. Not the wings, not the powers, the emotional attunement. Readers aren't attached to fantasy traits. They're attached to how these men make them feel. And that's safe, chosen, understood, prioritized. And predictable in the best way. Emotionally consistent. Yeah, we're not attracted to the wingspan. Well, maybe a little bit. A little. We're attracted to the emotional availability. Okay, before we even talk about the specific characters, we need to talk about the fantasy man archetype as a whole. Oh, a fantasy man archetype. Okay, because there's a reason the entire reading community collectively loses their minds over these men. And it's not actually the swords or the magic or the wings. It's how they show up emotionally. These men are written with emotional clarity. They say what they feel, they don't make you guess, they don't make you decode them. They're not hot and cold, they're not confusing, they're emotionally steady. They don't disappear when things get hard. They don't punish the female lead with silence or moodiness. They're protective without being controlling. And they respect her autonomy. Her power doesn't threaten them. They hold space for trauma instead of trying to fix it, rush it, or run from it. And this is huge. They communicate directly. There's no emotional labor required to decode them. And that's why they hit so hard. Because when you really strip away the fantasy setting, there's nothing unrealistic about their behavior. What's unrealistic is how rare that behavior feels in real life. Yeah. The bar feels high because emotional availability hasn't been normalized. These men don't create anxiety, they create calm for real. Yeah. You don't feel like you have to perform around them. You don't feel like you have to manage yourself around them. They don't require an emotional cover charge just to exist near them. Yeah, that was our last episode. Just see what we did there, guys. Yeah. And that's the part that makes readers go feral, no for real, girl. Yeah, because the fantasy isn't actually the magic. The fantasy is the emotional safety. And I think that's why these characters stick with people long after the books end. Because they represent how we want to feel in someone's presence. Calm, seen, understood, not confused, not anxious. And once you've experienced that through reading, it's really hard to accept less in real life. And that guy is the fantasy man archetype. So, like, yeah, why do we love fantasy men? Oh my god. Where do we begin? Yeah. Because some of the things, like, just who they are. They make you feel safe. And I really like the fact that sometimes we get their POV and like we really see how they're feeling, despite how they come off to the other characters of the book. Like we're seeing them and we really can connect and understand why they are the way they are, but like they're also hot. They're also like above 6'5. Yeah. They're they have muscles and they do nice things, and they, you know, when you're going through your trauma, yeah. They help you. I just love an emotionally vulnerable six foot 13 grown man. I don't know. Something about it, something about it. It's like they're so powerful, but then they have these vulnerable moments, and it's just nice to see that. Because, you know, it's hard to be vulnerable. Who um I'm trying to think like who my first book boyfriend was. I think it was Zayd Meadows. Yeah, Zaid is my OG. Which, like, that book was wild, guys, but yeah. Wow. I have no idea who my first book boyfriend was. It wasn't Cassian? No.

unknown 6:23

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 6:24

I don't remember. Yeah. It was Harry Potter. No, I'll think about it. I'll get back to it. Okay. But I don't remember. Well, like now we have quite a few, but back then, yeah. Or was it recent? No, I mean, if we're talking, well, yeah, but if we're talking fantasy. If we're talking fantasy, it was recent. No, I didn't I never liked Reese that much. Like I liked Reese, but yeah. I loved him. But I mean, let me not like Hamlin to. Let me all fell off for that trap. If you say you didn't fall for that trap, you're lying.

unknown 7:02

For real?

SPEAKER_02 7:03

But yeah, okay, so if we're talking like real now that I know book boyfriends, Cassian was my first book boyfriend. Okay. Mm-hmm. That's good. Who's your most recent? Mine is King Rot. Yeah, I mean But duh, that has to be yours. But like Sam Kyle. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I don't remember if Crescent City. I mean, I like I I did love. You did love um what's his shit? Rune. Yeah. Rune Dannon, Crown Prince of the Valveron. You did love Rune. I loved Rune. Yeah. I don't know. But like he wasn't. I don't know, whatever. That's another day, another story. Yeah. Alright. Anyway, sorry. We digress. So somewhere along the way, people started being told their standards are unrealistic. But what if these books are actually showing us what emotional safety looks like? These characters apologize. They communicate. They take initiative. They don't beg their partner to feel important. And none of that is fantasy. That's emotional maturity. What's wild is people read this and go, that's not real life. When really it's that's not what I've experienced. And that's a big difference. If a fictional man can do it on paper, a real person can do it in practice. Yeah, exactly. Like they want to say, not they, like I'm not, you know, but people try to argue that fictional men are just, you know, they're too good to be true. They're like, you know, they have magical powers, they can do this, they can do that. But some of the things, like, just like what we just said, is that they they're doing things that you could do, you know, like they're listening, and all the things we just said, like, so you can't just put this in a thing, some big or in a box, and say, like, these men are too good to be true because they have powers. And it's so crazy because some men will be like, oh my god, my girlfriend's reading this book, and like these men, like they're this and that. And then some of them are actually trying to like be like the men, yeah. All of them should be trying to be like, so like it's cute to see that, you know. Um, so yeah, it's possible. So, um, yeah, why does the fantasy man hit so hard? I think the reason fantasy men hit so hard is because they expose how much emotional unavailability we've normalized in real life. Yeah, like we've gotten so used to low emotional standards that we call it realistic expectations. And then we read these books and suddenly emotional maturity feels shocking instead of normal. Yeah, what's interesting is it's not the fantasy traits that people obsess over. It's not the powers, it's not the wealth, it's not the looks. It's the emotional traits. The communication, the consistency, the effort. And society really conditions people to accept less than that. Because the second you ask for communication, you get labeled as needy. Yeah, you know how many clients like tell me that though, like, oh, I asked someone to text me or I asked someone to communicate with me, and they're like, they told me I'm too much, I'm too needy. And I'm like, is that isn't that bare minimum? Yeah, but you shouldn't have to ask someone to text you or to communicate with you. So like the second you catch yourself doing that, just like yeah, just tell yourself that like they're not interested. See two different perspectives right there. Yeah. The second you ask to be emotionally prioritized, it's treated like you're asking for too much. When in reality, that's just basic emotional care. And I think that's where the difference between being liked and being cared for shows up. Ugh. Yeah, because being liked is easy. Being cared for obviously requires effort, awareness, and emotional intention. And fictional men show what that effort actually looks like. Yeah, they check in, they notice, they communicate, they adjust. They don't just make the female lead feel like she's asking for too much. Just for wanting to feel understood. And that's why people finish these books and start questioning their real life standards. Because you realize, wait, none of this is actually unrealistic. It's just unfamiliar. And I love this part when projection becomes inspiration instead of delusion. Because you're not saying I want a man with wings, even though I do want one. Yeah. You're saying I want someone who shows up emotionally like this. And that's not unrealistic, that's healthy. So naturally, we both came prepared with evidence. Neresa, who are you holding responsible for the standard? Well, get ready because we're finally gonna be talking about our favorite fantasy series of all time so far. No, it's not Harry Potter. It's Throne of Glass. And I will be doing Mr. Rowan Galathinius Whithorn.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

Is he a Galathinius?

SPEAKER_02 12:07

Ash River, no. Whatever. Rowan Whithorne. Rowan is my sec my number two. So where is Rowan from? Okay, so just a quick little um synopsis on that. So Throne of Glass is the series by Sarah J. Mass. Again, if you haven't read it, what are you doing with your life? Because we wish we could reread it right now. So the series starts with a young assassin pulled from a prison camp to compete for her freedom inside a royal castle. What begins as a survival story grows into a much bigger journey involving power, hidden magic, loyalty, and the emotional weight of carrying too much alone. By the time Rowan Whitorn enters the story, it's no longer just about surviving, it's about learning how to stop doing it by yourself. And that is a complete spoiler-free shortest synopsis of that book ever. But yeah, because you can never even touch it, and I could never do it justice, so just read it. Rowan is the partner of Ailen Galatinius, and I'm mostly going to be talking about Rowan as her partner, but you need to know her name at least. Okay, and that's all I'm really getting into. So Rowan enters her life during one of the lowest emotional points she's ever experienced. She's grieving, angry, disconnected from herself, and carrying trauma she's never fully processed. He is assigned to train her, but what happens between them goes far beyond physical training. From the beginning, he doesn't treat her like she's fragile, broken, or in need of rescuing. He treats her like someone who's capable, powerful, and worthy of respect. And even when she can't see that in herself, he listens more than he speaks, he watches her reactions, he notices her moods, he understands her emotional state without demanding that she explain it to him. Over time, Rowan becomes someone she doesn't have to perform for, she doesn't have to shrink herself, manage his feelings, or rehearse what she's gonna say. She can be loud, grieving, sarcastic, messy, angry, and healing all at the same time without the fear of losing his support. This is what makes Rowan stand out as a book boyfriend. His presence does not cost emotional energy, his presence restores it. He becomes a person around whom a nervous system can finally settle instead of staying on guard. So usually we do problem behaviors. I have unproblematic behaviors and core themes because we're focusing on the positive here. So from a clinical lens, Rowan represents what emotionally safe looks like when it's done right. There's no guessing games, no emotional labor, and no need to brace in his presence. It's important to understand that Rowan's consistency is what creates safety. There's never a need to wonder where one stands with him. Care doesn't have to be earned, pain does not have to be explained for it to be respected. So Rowan consistently demonstrates emotional attunement. He notices emotions without being told. Respectful challenge. He calls things out without shaming. Protection without control. He keeps someone safe without limiting autonomy. Space without abandonment. Independence without withdrawal. Direct communication so there's no confusion about where things stand. Emotional steadiness, calm instead of reactive or chaotic, trauma awareness, pain is seen and not avoided, support for growth, strength without overpowering, and emotional reliability. No begging to be understood. So now the treatment goals and objectives. Obviously, there's the goal here is not to fix a problem, but to identify what emotional safety looks like when it's present in a relationship. And Rowan shows what it feels like when someone doesn't trigger hypervigilance. Guard lowers naturally because there's no emotional attacks. Existence is allowed without bracing. So objectives include recognizing what it feels like to not have to monitor yourself, how consistency builds emotional safety, how support can exist without control, and how emotional attunement shows up in behavior, not words. What it means to feel safe enough to soften. Um so the things that we see him do, um, and again, it's really, really nice to see because he also has his own shit going on. He has his own path that comes back. And to see him be present for Ailen when he's dealing with all of that, uh it was just a really beautiful thing. And his love was felt on the pages. Like you guys just have to read it to understand. Um it was just real, just deep, unapologetic love. And it was beautiful. Um so some of the things he did for her, uh, without probably even realizing, he was again reading emotions without interrogation. He was acknowledging her pain without encouraging strength, not disappearing when things became difficult. He actually did the opposite, like he went out of his way when things became difficult. Not to say like we expect that from people, but maybe sometimes depending on the situation. Yeah. Um, he strengthened her independence rather than creating dependence. And there were so many times he wanted to just be her savior, and he was like, No, like this isn't Aileen, and he knew her very well. She wouldn't want me to coddle or baby her or whatever, she would want me to like keep it real, you know. Um, allowing feeling without rushing, healing, and Ailen had some shit to heal from. Yeah, always, always, and he was able to just sit with it without rushing her to like, you know, get better, um, and clear communication. So, because of Rowan's emotional steadiness, softening becomes possible, trust becomes possible, and healing becomes possible. Not because he saves anyone, but because emotional safety allows a guard to finally come down. And he really did do all of that. He really knows how to calm a nervous system, you know. Um and he did a lot of things that I would appreciate in a partner, which is clear communication, validation without coddling, because you know I don't like that enable, like just keep it real with me. Um, I need to be challenged, you need to call me out, you know, giving me space and autonomy because that's really important to me, and consistent presence and not physically all the time, you know, emotionally, like I need to know you're there. If I'm going through something, I can be vulnerable, I can let my guard down, you know. Um so um yeah, that's my guy. Oh my god, we love Rowan. I love Rowan. You love Rowan more than I do, I think. No, yeah, yeah. I do, but you love him I love him for different reasons. Yeah. What reasons do you love him for that are different than mine? No, just like all the same reasons, but just not like I'm not attracted to Rowan. Okay, got it. Yeah, I am very attracted to him. I'm not also first of all, he started out with long hair, and then he like cut his hair short. He has like half of his body is like tattooed, starting from his like forehead down one side of his body. He's like tall, he's just so manly looking. Something about those tattoos. Anyway, okay, sorry. I hope my real boyfriend is a Muslim.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Just kidding.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

Doubt it. Alright, so who are you holding responsible for this super high but realistic standpoint? Okay. Before I even start, I want to say, like, I love the way you structured your statement plan because, like, the person I'm doing, there's still so much healing. I feel like that needs to be done. But Rowan is just like so perfect. And I can say that, like, I really do feel like Rowan is perfect. I don't feel like there was any moment where I was like, oh man, he really needs to change. There look, he's gonna jeopardize the relationship. Like, he always just kind of went along with Aylin's bullshit. Right. You know, like you she never told anyone what the plan was, but eventually he was just thinking that.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

But you know, like he just always trusted in her, like, if this is gonna work itself out, even when he acts upset, like, oh, why couldn't you just tell us, like, whatever? You put us all over. He knew you know, right, yeah, right. He is perfect, yeah. He's perfect. Um and like I've had that moment with other men that I'm like, what are you doing? You're gonna ruin this shit, you know. It's like fear is right upon me when I'm reading sometimes because I'm like, please don't ruin this, but never with Rowan. Never, yeah, never. Yeah, well, thank you. Yeah, and Rowan thanks you too. Yeah, I have so many book boyfriends, but today the one I have on my couch is none other than the Umbra Mortis himself. Ooh, Mr. Hunt O'Rion Albert. Oh my god, the way she's just looking at you. God, she's blushing again. Okay. For our listeners who have literally been living under a rock, Hunt is a character from Queen Sarah J. Mas, The Masters. Latest series, Crescent City. As always, if you don't mind a few spoilers, please feel free to keep listening. And it's fine because as usual, I will not be spoiling major plot lines or really much from the story. It's just about him as a person. How did I not just ruin Throw in the Glass? That was such good closure. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cause I could have ruined that all the way. Because, like, even like if I had done that, I would have been like, Her name is Alentia. You know, because her name changes so much anyway. I mean, yeah. Those are all different people. Yeah. For those of you who have it. It's just different personalities. Yeah. Yeah. But okay, so they're in the same mass verse. Or I've heard people say mouse verse, but I will not be one of those people. So I don't know why they say it like that. They're like Moss Verse. No, mass. Um it's massive. Mass, Sarah J mass. No? It's yeah, it's massive. Yeah. Alright, back to Hunt. Sorry. So Hunt Athelar is a fallen angel living in Crescent City under strict authoritarian control. Once a rebel, he was captured and enslaved as punishment for defying a ruling system that used his power as a weapon. By the time we meet him, Hunt is highly controlled by the world around him and by the limits he places on himself. He keeps his head down, follows orders, and avoids anything that might draw attention or invite consequences. When he begins forming connections, they happen within that reality, a life shaped by surveillance, punishment, and the constant risk of loss. His choices are constrained, his future uncertain, and his freedom conditional. That context matters because everything Hunt does and every relationship he enters happens inside a system that has already decided what he's allowed to want. Okay, so if Hunt Athalar walked into therapy, here's what we'd be working with. How'd you even focus? No, I wouldn't be able to focus. Like and You have to transfer him immediately. If he was walking into therapy, I would get the surveillance from like every store on the block and be like, show me. Like I would want to see him walking into my office. I would just play. I have a great idea. What will flip reverse? Yeah, like you would avoid it. Because I I couldn't with him. Yeah. I wouldn't. Okay. So how are you gonna this episode? No, I'm saying, like, if he were my client, these are all hypotheticals, you know. Yes. These uh, if you didn't know, these aren't our real clients, but if they live in our head, technically, yeah, yeah, also like it's our treatment plan. This is the podcast, guys. Hello, do you know us? Exactly. By now, you're here. Go. All right, so if Hunt Athelar walked into therapy, here's what we'd be working with: presenting strengths, why we love him. Hunt is emotionally perceptive, deeply loyal, and morally grounded. I think he's so loyal. So loyal to uh painfully just it's uh you want to just tell him stop being so loyal. Yes, he values consent, mutuality, and choice. He doesn't romanticize control and he doesn't need dominance to feel powerful, even though like he's just hella dominant dominant, yeah. Yeah, his presence is just sorry, I'm in your life. No, please be in it. What makes Hunt attractive isn't just devotion, it's restraint. He feels deeply, but he doesn't weaponize it. He loves in a way that says, I'm with you, not over you. Green flag behavior immediately. Presenting concerns. This is where I start taking notes, so he doesn't realize that I know everything about him already because I'm completely obsessed. Okay. So Hunt carries significant moral injury from prolonged enslavement, violence under coercion, and punishment for resistance. He struggles with learned hopelessness, fear of wanting too much, belief that love invites loss or retaliation, difficulty trusting that good things can last. Hunt doesn't avoid intimacy. He fears hope because hope has been dangerous for him before. So let's talk about what's actually going on here. Hunt learned that survival required obedience, emotional restraint, and lowered expectations. His nervous system associated attachment with consequences. So when something good shows up, his instinct isn't excitement, it's caution. And I can relate to that because like sometimes when good things happen, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. I'm like, you know. That's fair. It's not because he doesn't want love, but because he knows exactly what it costs when love is taken away. So in order to maintain Hunt as the perfect book boyfriend, these would be my treatment goals for him. His goals would be to rebuild a sense of agency after systemic control, differentiate love from punishment, increase tolerance for joy without bracing for loss, strengthen secure attachment without self-sacrifice, learn that hope can be chosen, not earned, interventions, trauma-informed attachment work, helping Hunt recognize that care doesn't require endurance or suffering, separating who he is from what he was forced to do, reinforcing that his choices, especially loving ones, are his own, reframing hope, not as recklessness, but as courage. So I feel like it's important to go over these things again because, like, yes, he's already, you know, become such a supportive spouse or you know, partner to someone that like obviously he's had to talk to her about these things. But if we're talking about him ever being in any other relationship again, these wounds can open up in a sense, like if he has to interact with a new person and share these things again, yeah, you know, it's like he he has to kind of know how to get through this stuff, right? Right, yeah, and he's been through some shit. But he's never gonna be with anyone else, other than like in our heads, but well, he can't really in the book he can't. Yeah, oh yeah, he can't. Oh my god. I forgot. Yeah, okay. We didn't spoil it. Yeah, we think. No, no, but we need that that new book, the next one. Yeah, hurry up, Sarah J. We're waiting. Alright, prognosis. This is why he's a book boyfriend and not just a case file. Hunt's prognosis is strong. He doesn't romanticize harm, he doesn't confuse control with love, and he doesn't need to be needed to feel valuable. With continued healing, Hunt becomes the kind of partner who chooses love without ownership, protects without possession, shows up without disappearing into duty. He learns that freedom and connection can coexist. Here's why so many people are drawn to Hunt. This is what I think. Okay, let's see what he represents. This is why, yeah, okay, okay. I just said people, but I mean me.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

But I am people.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

I am people. So here's why so many people are drawn to him. He represents love after harm. Not love that fixes you, but love that respects your healing. And I feel like he did that. He really, as as Bryce was going through her shit, you know, like he was there for her and he just kind of let her do her thing, like even when she was being a brat about it. Yeah. He doesn't ask someone to save him, he does the work and then lets himself be chosen. And if Hunt is also your book boyfriend, it probably says that you're not looking for intensity anymore. You're looking for safety, integrity, and mutual choice. Honestly, that's not fantasy, that's a standard. I was just thinking as you were talking about like just Bryce being a brat. She turned him down so many times, and he just consistently like would not get up, give up, and he showed up and in the most like and he wasn't a creep about it. Yeah, the tiniest, most respectful ways, and like eventually, obviously, like he grew on her, but he was just he was so loyal. Yeah, like I between him and Rowan, like I get like his loyalty was crazy. I mean, like Rowan was loyal to Ailen also, but something about Hun's loyalty was different to me. She met him on one of the most traumatic nights of her life. Her life. No, I'm just saying, like, to meet your person on that night. Right. And he wasn't even like trying them too much, but like he wasn't even hitting on her. He was interrogating her. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I honestly in the beginning, I didn't think it was gonna be them two together. Me either. I didn't see that at all. I didn't see it at all. Because I was like, no, not the way these two are vibing. And like, whatever, I get like enemies celebrate, blah blah. But this just seemed strictly like I well, it was her and Connor. Oh my god. Remember? Yeah. So I was like, oh yes, her and Connor. Yeah, I was so excited. Yeah, we're we are excited for them. Yeah, I'm still excited for them. Well, obviously, whatever, guys. Yeah, she ended up with Hunt, not Connor. So again, we're not spoiling anything. That's a known fact. Yeah. But okay, so yeah. Oh, what about the people who didn't read the first book yet? And they still think she ends up well, we didn't say, yeah. Right. Shut up.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Stop whispering shit. Somebody got really good hearing and they're gonna hear you. Okay. And be like, no, you ruined it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

But all that to say that Hunt is a great guy. Hunt is a great guy. We have two phenomenal book boy friends, and I want them to meet. Oh wait. Did oh no, that's giving too much away. I no, I want them to meet me. I want to meet them. Yeah, true. We want them to walk into our offices tomorrow. But I would just I would just feel so safe with Hunt. Mm-hmm. Like I just feel like I would feel so safe with him. Let's let's ado it. Alright, okay. So, what do these characters reveal about unmet emotional needs? They reveal how starved people are to feel emotionally prioritized. When does projection onto fictional characters become unhealthy? When people start rejecting real people for not being perfect instead of recognizing the emotional traits they actually want. Yeah, and that's a problem because people don't know, like, when you ask them, like, what is it you look for in a relationship or what's like a need that you need met or like within yourself? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

How are you looking for what are you looking for?

SPEAKER_02 33:37

But that's what I was gonna say. That's why people say you have to date yourself before you can like date other people. Yeah. And it sounds like cliche or whatever, but like until you date yourself, like I don't really think, or you can call it whatever, until you sit with yourself and like really see what you like, see what you're lacking, see what like is important to you, you won't know how to answer those questions when someone asks you. Yeah, and I think sometimes people have expectations, and there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, but sometimes you have to compromise them because you're not going to find everything you want in one person, so like you have to kind of adjust, not get rid of the expectation, but adjust, you know. So you gotta be open a little bit, also. But you gotta weigh it out and see like what's more important, and it goes back to to dating yourself, knowing what's more important to you, yeah. Like, is this more important or is that? Yeah, because that's the difference between I'm staying or I'm not, right? And then once you have that and you know yourself well, then you know you don't you have that's your guide, right? You don't you live by that if someone's not giving you those things, then like what like what are we doing here? Why do people feel embarrassed for wanting what these characters offer? Because they've been told it's too much instead of being told it's healthy. Yeah, I mean it's not too much at all. It's their minimum. Alright. How can someone raise their standards without b becoming rigid or unrealistic? By focusing on emotional traits, not fantasy traits. And how do we separate fantasy from emotional reality? We keep the emotional standards, we drop the wings and the swords. Yeah, so I mean I think that's going back to what we were just saying, too. Um so, like, how do you know when your standards are healthy versus too rigid? Your standards, I feel like your standards are your standards, right? Like they're your personal standards. You're not projecting, well, not like you're not projecting them out. You literally are, but not you're projecting, but you're expecting this. Yes. But if someone doesn't meet your standards, it doesn't mean they're like a shit person. Like you they just don't meet your standards, you just don't date them. Right. But they're not a bad person, right? But I need someone else's standards, and that's fine. It's your standard. So as long as you're able to like reciprocate, I feel like, yeah, this is my standard. Like, I want someone who's six, seven or taller. If I'm six, seven or taller, then yeah, like I think you well. All I'm saying is if you're gonna be able to say, like, this is a hard no, I'm not gonna do this, like, you gotta be able to reciprocate. Like, do you meet that standard as well? Like, yeah, that's a good point because sometimes we want things, but when it's the other way around, we don't like accept that okay, that's this may not be up to that person's standard, and that's fair. And I think like something that you kept telling me when I was dating is that like you don't need to like everyone, and not everyone needs to like you, and that's okay. And you know, I was holding myself to a certain standard, and I was being picky, like, well, what if this person doesn't like this, and what if that person like doesn't like that, and it was a lot of like emotional it was draining, and I think when you told me that, I was like, you know what, she's right, like it's totally fine. There's like a million gajillion people in the world, like it's exactly it's fine, so yeah. But yeah, I think too, another thing is like when you're not like all that, you have your standards, but like if you're not willing to compromise a little bit, then I think that's when on some level you can say whether it's healthy or not. Like because if you're just That's a really good point, you know, are you able to compromise? If not, you're like no, this I need this guy, I need him tall, dark, whatever, this, or like you won't even give someone a chance of a what's that saying? Give them the chance of day, give them the chance the give them the chance of day, give them whatever. Yeah. I was like, why didn't it sound right? Yeah, all right, but yeah, you wouldn't even give them the time of day, so you don't even know sometimes if that's your type, like you could think like, oh, I like this type of man, but then you get with them and you're like, oh no, or woman or whatever, right? Right. The point is you could think you like someone and or you could like that type of person, but then you go and you experience it and everyone's different, so like you can turn out and you have a different type. So if you're so rigid and you just stay in that stay in that doesn't like build a man, you have to compromise, you can't be so rigid sometimes, yeah. But there's certain things where sh it should be non-negotiable, you know? But there's other things that you know you should give people a chance. Yeah, I like that. That's a really good point, friend. Thank you. I like this question of why do people accept emotional breadcrumbs instead of emotional presence. I really like that question because to me, like accepting emotional breadcrumbs, I hear a lot because people are lonely and they just want somebody and they want a partner, but it's not like they're breadcrumbing them. They're not giving them like the full you know what I mean? And they'll stick around for that, but they won't like try to do anything or communicate or want to change it, like they're fine with that. So okay, so what's one emotional trait from these characters that should be non-negotiable in real life? Uh yeah, all of them. Yeah, one, just one. I just think the loyalty, because if you're not here for me and if it's not us, then what are we doing? Like, why are you here? Because like you can't put all this in if I'm not gonna have that loyalty in the end that we're just playing right now, and yeah, it's not it just feels like it's not worth it, like if you're not loyal. Right. Because if I could just lose you, like, or if you know Yeah, if any little thing can make you wrong, then it doesn't matter how in love we are or how much I like you. Yeah, that's a good one. Um, for me, I think it's his Rowan's consistency, just like always showing up, even when he doesn't know what the plan is, or even when he doesn't know what's going on, and even when she's mad, and you know, he just shows up consistently and he's just there, even if it's quiet presence. So I think that's um that's the one thing that should be non-negotiable in real life consistency and loyalty. There you have it. Okay, enough clinical insight. Time for chaos. Yay! We love chaos here at Once Upon a Session. Okay. So we're going to do, you know, if we love our rapid fire, whatever. Um, so we're gonna do rapid fire therapist red flag radar. So we're gonna do green flag, yellow flag, and absolutely not. Okay. I don't really know that I've ever what's a yellow flag? Sorry. Yellow flag is like you understand. No, it's like yellow is like it depends on the situation, like or you can understand it, like okay. Yeah. So like a maybe. Yeah, maybe. Okay, so we're gonna go tit for tat here. He says he's just really bad at texting. I think this might be a yellow flag for me, because maybe he is just bad at not like in a you believe that kind of way, but like you know. Yeah, well, you're a bad texter.

SPEAKER_01 41:42

Yeah, so maybe he's bad at texting, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:45

Right, but you're not bad because you want to be. You just are doing other things and you're busy, so and that's okay, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:52

So I can understand that.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

Yeah, I think I'm a yellow flag too, but like I'm like, if you're going to be busy, at least let me know. Yeah, kind of thing. Yeah. So I think that's yellow, right? Okay. Alright. He only opens up after you basically conduct an interrogation. I mean, like, people don't open up that easily. Yeah. So that might be yellow for me. I definitely would yellow that. Yeah. For the same reason. Like, I'm not gonna tell you everything, like, right up front. Right, and I'm not gonna push you to tell me everything right up front either. Yeah. Okay. He says I'm just not an emotional person. That is a red flag for me. Because, like, what? Like, you don't have to be an emotional person. Like, just the fact that you said that, right, right. I'm not an emotional person. Right. That's weird to me. Like, you have to be, like, you gotta know your emotions at least. You have them, right? And if you think I mean by emotional, I mean crying. Yeah, then you're already still a red flag. Right, exactly. Right, because that's not what that means. Yeah, that was brilliant. Yeah, you're a red flag, then you're absolutely not still. Okay, um he remembers your coffee order without asking. That's a green flag. Yeah, yeah. We love the saying of them. Yeah, thank you. We love princess treatment over here.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

Yes, okay.

SPEAKER_02 43:23

He says he's not big on labels. Uh I don't know, because I'm not really big on labels either. Exactly. So I think it's different for everyone. Yeah. I think at first I might initially think it's a red flag, but then same. I'm not big on labels, so I don't care what you want to call it. Right. Same. Yeah. Like I know we're we're monogamous, we're committed, like, we don't really need to label that. It's just what it is. But I understand people want labels and you should, and that's your preference. Go ahead. Um, go for it. Okay. He plans dates. Without asking what you want to do. Oh, we love that. Oh yeah. Green flag. We love that. Green flag all the way. Um he listens without trying to fix the problem. Green flag. He gets defensive when you bring up concerns. Instant red flag. Yeah. Absolutely not. Because what do you do? Right. Because my concern is not a personal attack. Yeah. It's just my concern. He apologizes without adding a butt.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

Yeah. Green flag. Green flag. He says all his exes are crazy. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:41

I mean.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

I don't know, because they could be, right? But also, no. That's a red flag. That's a red flag, yeah. Because even if they are crazy, like, why are we talking about them? Why are we yeah. Why are we really talking about them? Yeah, like in that they're crazy. Like, are you now I'm gonna automatically feel like you're not taking any responsibility at all. Also, like you dated them. Maybe you have a pattern, sir. No, I'm just kidding, but not really. But like, yeah. Um he says he doesn't like talking about the past. Um, that could be a yellow, yeah. Because maybe they don't want to talk about the past for a reason. Because it's traumatic or something, you know. So I can understand. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. He checks in after an argument later that day. I think that's a green flag. That's a green flag for me, but I can easily see how that's like a yellow or a red. Right. Because people want space. Yeah. Yeah. That's a green flag. But like it's not like he's coming over and doing like, you know, like invading your space or something. He's just checking in. Like that could be a text. So that's fine. Yes, that's a green flag. Um, he goes quiet instead of communicating when upset. That's a huge red flag for me. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. That's a yellow flag for me. I mean, I guess that's just based on personal experience too. Yeah. Like just being with the non-communicator and just going quiet, and then everything's just fine the next day, and it's like, no, it's not just a few. Oh no, no, no, no. Like, there eventually has to be a conversation, but like I believe, like, sometimes someone needs to go, like, some people need to go to go quiet instead of communicating, because sometimes they can communicate and say some things that they really don't mean, like they're upset, they need to sit there and process within themselves, like, what's going on with me, like whatever. I'm not saying just ignore me the whole time. But like I see, that's how I read the question, but that's based on based on my experience. But I think what you're saying is absolutely true. Yeah. He says, I don't think it was a big deal. I mean, knowing me, I could make a big deal out of things that aren't a big deal, but would I want to hear somebody tell me that? I don't know. Because maybe it was a big deal to me in the moment. Yeah. So that's a yellow. Yeah. Cause I feel like if I'm telling him I think it's a big deal, then he should be able to tell me I didn't think it was a big deal.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

Right.

SPEAKER_02 47:15

But there has to be more after that. That's not the end of the conversation. Like, I didn't think it was a big deal, but now that I know that it was a big deal for you, what can I do? Like, whatever, something. I'm laughing because everybody's probably like, who loves these bitches?

SPEAKER_01 47:33

Who's in a relationship with these two bitches?

SPEAKER_02 47:38

Athalar and Roman. They don't, they're perfect. They don't have any problems with what we're doing. Yeah, exactly. No, just kidding, but we do have people that love us. Uh he asks follow-up questions when you talk. Love that green flag. Yellow flag. You don't like follow-up questions? You know, sometimes I don't like follow-up questions because I feel like when I talk, I'm thorough. So, like, keep up. Because why do you still have questions? Like, if I'm telling you something, honestly, it's I'm telling you what I want you to hear. Not because I'm sneaking or hiding something, but like I'm just telling you what you need to hear. Like, just chill. You don't need all the deets. Got it. See, I took that as like if I'm talking about something and he doesn't understand my point or what I'm trying to say, then he asks follow-up questions to try to better understand. So, like, yeah. He never asks questions back. Red flag. Yeah, red flag. Okay, he tells you he's bad at relationships. The red flag. He tells you he's bad at relationships because you guys didn't hear a red flag. Red flag. Yeah. He says he's just really independent. Red flag. Because what? What do you mean? You green flag that? Well, if he says he's just really independent. Yeah. Well, I mean, it depends. Like, it's good to be independent, but like, like, you don't need me. Yeah, but for nothing. Yeah, okay, I guess because if I said that, it would be like, I'm an independent woman. Like, why are you saying that? Yeah, okay, okay, got it. Yes, I agree with you then. Sorry. Okay. He reassures you without asking for it. Green flag. Yeah, definitely. He needs you to explain why you're upset every single time. Oh my god. No. Red fucking time. Red flag, enough sense. Just leave me alone. Bye. Bye. Yeah. See you never. Yeah. Um, he says he's not used to someone who communicates this much. Yellow flag for me. Yeah, that I think that's a yellow. Because you may not, it's true. It may not be. And we talk a lot. Yeah, we do, as you can tell. He remembers things you said weeks ago. That's a yellow flag for me. Because sometimes I'll be saying some bullshit, and I wish you didn't remember it. But on the other hand, like it's important stuff.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:08

I want you to remember that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:11

But they probably remembering the bullshit more than the good shit. So it's not okay. He says, I didn't know you felt that way after you said it five times. Definite red flag. Are you being sarcastic now or what? Okay, red flag, yeah. He disappears when stressed. Well, that's kind of like shutting down when they get upset. Yeah, that's a yellow skill for me. Just let me know you're gonna disappear. Then it's a yellow flag. Yeah. He communicates more when stressed. Yellow flag. Yeah. He jokes when the conversations get serious. Red flag. Red flag. Yeah. Red flag. He sits with uncomfortable conversations. Green flag. Green flag. Yeah. He says you're overthinking. Yellow, because I could be. Bread. Because like, let me think what I want to think. I just don't. I don't care.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

Okay, fair.

SPEAKER_02 51:04

He says, tell me more. Green flag. Green flag, yeah. He doesn't like talking about his feelings, but is willing to try. That's a great flag. Yeah. He says therapy is dumb. Red flag. Bye. You probably need it. Yeah. He asks how therapy's going. Green flag for me. Yeah, that's a green flag. I'm not, I might not tell you details. Yeah, yeah. But just to ask in general, yeah.

unknown 51:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:29

He only compliments your looks. That's a red flag. Yeah, that's a red flag. Yep, yep. He compliments your character. Green, flag. He needs space every time conflict happens. Yellow. I mean yellow, yeah. I think that's fair. Me too. Yeah. He says he doesn't fight, he just shuts down. That's yellow for me, because I think that's what you were saying partially, like earlier. But at least he says it. Yeah. But he says all these things. Right. So never mind. I don't know. Something about shutting down just means to me like you're never opening that door again. Like it's done. And we need to revisit whatever you're shutting down about. Oh, okay. Yeah. But yeah. See if we see that in different perspectives. So I love that. He checks on you when you've had a hard day. That's a green flag. Green flag. He changes the subject when you bring up emotions. Red flag. Yeah, red flag. He brings up emotions before you do. That's a yellow flag for me. I would say yellow also. Yeah. Uh he says I've just never had to talk like this before. Yellow. Yellow. Yeah. He says I want to be better at this. Green. Yeah, screen. I love that. Like, I wish somebody would just like record that and just I could listen to the I want to be better at this. Just record your voice saying. I don't know why. I love that. Yeah, I love that too. Um he says he's just not wired that way. Red flag. Fuck off. Yeah. He says, help me understand. Green. Yes. Same. He waits for you to calm down instead of engaging. That's a green flag for me, because I need to calm down. That's a yellow flag for me because like he might be waiting a long time and then by the time he engages, like I'm over him. Well, yeah, I mean it depends. If you're in front of my face and you're waiting, like, yeah, you might be waiting for a bit, but if you're giving me space, like, you know, not it's just it's different. It's too much. He engages respectfully even when you're upset. Green flag. Green flag. He says that makes sense. Green flag. Yellow flag. Yellow flag for me. Okay. Why? Because you don't make sense sometimes? No, because I don't know. That makes sense. Because if it makes sense, have you never thought about it before? Like. Well, maybe not from your perspective. Well, of course. But like, if we're in a relationship, you like, why wouldn't you look at it from my perspective a little bit? Or like why wouldn't that make sense? Like, why don't you care about how I feel about the situation? Yeah, that's right. Or how I would react. Yeah. Like that's the bare minimum. You gotta care for me. That makes sense. Yeah. So, like, d is that how you feel about me saying it right now? Who are you saying it to? I'm saying it to you.

SPEAKER_01 54:41

That makes sense. What you're saying. Fucking sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:46

It doesn't, I don't like it. It's still a yellow flag. Because why didn't you think of that? Because I'm not a mind reader. Right. Well, all right. Yellow flag. He says you're too sensitive. Red flag. Yeah. Yeah. Because even if I am, don't tell me. Yeah, then go somewhere else. Like this is just, I'm not gonna not be sensitive because of you. Yeah. He notices when your mood is off without you saying anything. Green flag for me. Yeah. He needs you to spell out every emotional need. Restraint and order. Right. Because who has time for that? Yeah, red flag. He asks what you need without being prompted. That's a green flag for me. Yeah. Definitely. So to wrap all this up, our men are perfect. The end. The end. The end. Alright. Well, as usual, we have a little teaser for our next episode. The first people you learn how to fight with. The first people you learn how to protect. The first people you were compared to. And somehow the only people who can roast you without consequences. We're talking about them. Sibling dynamics. Stay tuned. Alright, guys, that's it for this session. And we'll see you next week. Bye. Bye-bye. We want you to be a part of this world with us. Send us your book recommendations, character obsessions, or topics you want us to cover. You can find us on Instagram and TikTok at once upon a session pod. Or email us at info at onceupona sessionpod.com if you want to share thoughts, suggestions, or just scream about a plot twist with us. Or if you want to compliment me for finally getting our email right.

SPEAKER_01 56:49

Finally, she did it.

unknown 56:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 56:53

So are we charging for this session? Emotionally only. See you next session. All right.