Session 5: Sibling Dynamics

In this episode of Once Upon a Session, Vanessa and Nareesa explore the psychology behind sibling relationships in fantasy and fiction. From fierce loyalty to painful rivalry, siblings often shape the emotional core of the stories we love. Through a therapeutic lens, the hosts unpack how sibling bonds influence identity, trauma, protection, and growth—and why these relationships resonate so deeply with readers.

Disclaimer: We’re licensed therapists, but we’re not your therapists. Everything shared here is for conversation, reflection, and entertainment.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Tell me why you can go years without seeing your siblings. The five minutes in the same room, and suddenly you're 12 years old again. The tone changes, the attitudes come back. And you don't even know why you're annoyed. Because sibling dynamics don't expire. They just wait. This is Once Upon a Session, where two therapists turn their TPR pile into treatment plans. And every story becomes a session. I'm Vanessa.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

And I'm an only child, so why am I here? Okay, just a quick note before we dive in. We're both licensed therapists, but we're not your therapists. Everything we share here is for conversation, reflection, and maybe a little inspiration.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

But it's not a substitute for therapy. If you're struggling, please reach out to a mental health professional who can give you the care and support you deserve.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Now that you're all checked in, have a seat on our couch. All right. Welcome back, everybody. Welcome back. So we're gonna do a quick check-in before we get into it. But yes, thank you, thank you, thank you. For those of you who are listening, even we're like worldwide.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Yeah we have people in South Africa. That was wild, South America, yeah, um, Grenada, Canada.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Thank you, Mexico. Yeah, yes, thank you. Thank you, thank you. Yeah, so what's going on with you, girl? What do you want to do?

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Oh my goodness. The usual, just working, um, doing good things in the hospital, pretty much just working, staying inside. It's been like kind of like a brutal winter this past week and a half here.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Yep. What have you been up to? Same, just working, same old, getting new clients, getting more new clients, um, just having to use my clinical skills that I haven't used in a while. So digging them out. And yeah, it's nice, you know. Work.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Yeah, it must be nice to work from home during a blizzard if some of us have to get out on the road.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

It's amazing. Yeah, no, but it is nice. But um, I am currently not reading anything at the moment. I might be in a little bit of a book slump. I'm gonna reread Throw in the Glass.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

I don't care. Like, I know we have a lot of other things to read, and our TBR is long, but I'm just at a place in my life right now where I feel like I need that. Like, that's what I need. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Oh my god, I love that. I'm so excited. And obviously, you're gonna read it in the correct order. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

All right. All right. So, um, before we talk about fictional siblings, we need to talk about why sibling relationships are some of the most emotionally intense relationships people have in real life.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Because siblings aren't just family, they're the people who knew you before you knew yourself.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

For a lot of people, your siblings are the longest relationships you'll ever have.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

You might outgrow friends, relationships change, but your siblings are tied to your origin story.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

You're never gonna outgrow me. But that means they hold the oldest version of you.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

No, never, actually, never. You are like, well, shout out to you because you're like the example of a sibling that I'll have. And you know, I appreciate you for that because I remember like in the beginning, I would be like, Oh my god, I don't want to get that thing that you have because I don't want you to like I don't want you to be like, Oh my god, she has the same thing as me. And you would be like, girl, like I get it. I love that you want to have the same thing as me.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

So it must be that only child stubborn yeah, save the rant for found families. We'll get back to it.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

Okay, perfect, perfect, all right. In therapy, we talk a lot about roles and families.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

The responsible one, the troublemaker, the peacemaker, the invisible one.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

And most of us didn't choose those roles, they formed because of what the family needed to function.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Those roles are survival strategies, not personality traits. One sibling might become the helper or mini-parent, another might become the reactive one because anger was the only way to be seen, and another might decide vulnerability isn't safe and shut down completely, all from the same household. You can be calm, regulated, emotionally mature in every area of your life. And then one comment from your siblings sends you into a full regression because you're not reacting as an adult, you're reacting from the role you had as a kid, you're arguing as your 10-year-old self. You remember when me and Rishe stopped talking for a whole year because I lost our phone in the bathroom? That was so wild, and it was like this isn't a conversation, it's not an argument that we had as like a 30-year-old and a 20-year-old. It was we were like 10 and 5, like it was just it was ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

But god, that was you guys like that.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Yeah, over a year. It was like a whole year we didn't talk, but we're fine now. Yeah. All right, shout out to her, shout out to Roche. One of the hardest things about siblings is that healing isn't synchronized.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

One sibling goes to therapy, one avoids it, and one doubles down on their coping strategy.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

And suddenly you're trying to have adult conversations with someone who's still interacting from the past.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

So most sibling conflict isn't really about the present, it's about unresolved roles from childhood.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

And fiction loves this dynamic because writers know siblings come with built-in emotional history. If you look at almost any story, fantasy, drama, even comedy, siblings are one of the most common relationship dynamics, and they're rarely peaceful.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

You'll almost always see siblings representing different coping styles.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

The responsible one who carries everything, the angry one who feels overlooked, the power-seeking one who refuses to be vulnerable, the sibling who leaves versus the one who stays.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

This literally sounds like the family I'm about to talk about.

unknown 6:34

Good.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Sibling relationships come with instant tension, shared history, shared trauma, comparison, loyalty, resentment, all baked in. You don't have to explain why they're emotionally loaded. It's understood. In fiction, siblings often represent different ways of coping with the same childhood.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

One chooses responsibility, one chooses rebellion, one chooses control, and stories love the dynamic where one sibling grows and another doubles down on the role. Because that tension never fully resolves.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

When we look at fictional siblings, we're really looking at a psychological case study disguised as a plot.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Alright. So who you got on your couch today? What family? Not who. All right. Who all do you have?

SPEAKER_01 7:22

All right. Today I have Katniss and Primrose Everdeen on my couch. Oh my God, yay. All right. So today I'll be talking about the Hunger Games and using it to explore sibling dynamics shaped by survival. The Hunger Games was written by Suzanne Collins. There are five novels in the series and five films released so far with the sixth movie scheduled for November 2026. I'm not going to get into graphic details, but we will be talking about survival, family roles, and sibling dynamics that come out of trauma. So just take care of yourself as you're listening. Okay, so I didn't choose sibling dynamics randomly. I'm the oldest sibling and I have a younger sister. I have many siblings, but I'm only talking about one today. And for as long as I can remember, we've jokingly called each other Katness, you know, like Vanessa and Prem. So I love that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

So I love that you made it like sentimental. Well, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Well, that's literally my name and her phone is Katness. Yeah. And her name and my phone is Primrose.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Primrose. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love it. Well, I hope she's listening. Roshe, you better be listening or else.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Yeah. So I didn't choose these because our life looks anything like Pan M. Well, we did grow up in the Bronx, but it's not Pan M. It's because the roles felt familiar. I was the one who stepped up early, the one who felt responsible, the one who was always scanning, always anticipating, always trying to make sure everything was okay. And my baby sister was and still is the soft place, the heart, the person I do anything for. So when I talk about Katniss Everdeen and Primrose Everdeen, I'm not just talking as a therapist. I'm talking as someone who recognizes how love and responsibility can get braided together, especially when you grow up fast. And I also have to give a quick shout out to my little sister Roche, who is an absolute menace with the books. She can read an entire series in like a weekend or less.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

She's always texting us.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

She's texting me in the research.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Right, right. And we're like, just stop, shut up. We're not there yet. Exactly. She literally like starts a book like 8 a.m. and she's done by like 2 p.m. Yeah. And we're always like, girl, we're on the first page of book one. Yeah. We're like, done. Relax. Don't spoil anything now. But shout out to Reshe Ram. I hope you're reading something good. Because she's probably in the she's probably in a book slump from that last.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

Oh my gosh. Do you remember the last book that put her in a book slump? Yeah. Yeah. Cods and monsters.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

Roche took like I feel like she took like until the last the most recent book came out. Yeah. But then she read that's crazy. And I was like, Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Yeah, that's the only book I've ever seen break Roche. Like when she read Throne of Glass, it was, you know, her reactions were intense. That's when I think she started reading in the shower. She had the Kindle in one arm out the shower, and like she was like, We call her Roche Red It already, partly because it's true, and partly because it's our little nod to gods and monsters. Like, and if you don't know gods and monsters, just seriously stop listening because I can't tell you enough.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Right. But yeah, like you must by now have read. And if you haven't started, it's a problem. Throw in a glass and gods and monsters. Because, like, just stop now and come back later.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

But yeah, those two books, Throw in a Glass and Gods and Monsters, are the only books that I've seen break her. And I love that.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

And like they need to break y'all too. So, like, what are y'all doing? Because hello. Yeah, let's go. Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Exactly. But anyway, shout out to Mache. I love you. All right. So, with that in mind, I want to talk you through this sibling dynamic, not from a place of judgment, but from a place of understanding. But first, we need to talk about the world these sisters grew up in. The Hunger Games takes place in Pan Am, a country where power is enforced through fear, scarcity, and spectacle. Every year, the Capitol forces each district to send two children into a televised fight to the death. It's not just punishment, it's a reminder that the system owns your children. Katniss and Primrose Everdeen come from District 12, one of the poorest districts. Their father dies, their mother emotionally collapses, and long before the games even touch them, survival becomes a family responsibility. Katniss becomes the provider, Prim becomes the one she protects at all costs. So when Prim's name is called at the reaping, Katniss doesn't make a heroic choice. She steps into a role she's already been living. And from that moment on, everything about Katniss's identity, her survival, and eventually the war itself is shaped by the relationship. And this is where the sibling dynamic actually begins, because Katniss and Prim aren't reacting to the games. They were already a system before the Capitol touched them. After their father dies and their mother kind of disappears emotionally, there's no real adult holding things together. What we see instead is something really common in trauma-exposed families. One child steps up and another child becomes the reason they do. Katniss doesn't just become an older sister. She becomes the provider, the protector, the emotional regulator. Her nervous system is always scanning for danger. For Katniss, love looks like vigilance. Prim, on the other hand, becomes the emotional center of the family. She's gentle, attuned, and connected. Not because she's fragile, but because Katniss has made safety her full-time job. And on the surface, this looks like a clear dynamic. One strong sibling, one vulnerable one, one protector, one protected. But what matters here is that neither of them chose these roles. They were assigned by circumstance. The system works until growth enters the pitcher. Because when the siblings you've built your identity around, protecting starts to grow, change, or step into their own agency, the protector doesn't suddenly get relief. They get lost. And that's a real conflict in this dynamic. Not between Katniss and Prem, but inside Katniss herself. From a psychological lens, this is a protective sibling dynamic shaped by trauma. We're seeing parentification, identity forming around responsibility, and attachment forged under chronic threat. This bond is deeply loving and deeply asymmetrical. When we talk about Katniss as a client, we're not starting with what's wrong with her. We're starting with survival. Neresa, who's on your couch today?

SPEAKER_00 14:06

All right. Well, you've been talking about this one person who is part of this dynamic since the beginning of time. So we finally get to talk about him today. So I'm going to be talking about the siblings in Gods and Monsters, of course. And thank the monsters. Yes. Um, so I just want to give a spoiler alert. I am going to be discussing sibling roles and dynamics from the series, and it's going to spoil who is a sibling of who. I'm not going to spoil much more than that, but you can keep listening if you want, and you can save it for later. But I also just listen because maybe I'll convince you guys to read the book.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Yeah, because if you hadn't read it by now, then just honestly.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

I honestly I want to reread this series. So maybe while you're doing it. Maybe while you're doing throw on the glass, I'm gonna reread this. Yeah, and I'm going to reread Throw on the Glass. I'm just like not in the place for it right now. Like I don't need it right now. You know what I mean? And it's I know that what is this? A therapy session? All right. Okay. All right. So just a little synopsis on the book. Um, Gods and Monsters is a dark fantasy series set in a world of ancient beings, immense power, political tension, shifting loyalties, and long histories of betrayal and survival. Yeah, and the betrayal and survival in this book is so real. Like, please, please, please read this if you have not read it yet. I remember you read it before me, and then you were like, You have to read this, you have to read this.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

I was trying to convince you to read this book so bad, like it was hurting my feelings, and now you can see why I was being so annoying. I was like, My God, no, it's you have to read this.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Yes, yes. And then I read it, and then like you reread it with me, and then you read you read the last one, the most recent one together.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

Oh my god, it's so good. People, please read Gods and monsters if you haven't yet. Okay. The story follows characters who have lived through war, loss, responsibility, and centuries of emotional and physical conflict. At its core, the series explores how trauma, power, loyalty, and love shape people over time, and how the past continues to influence the present in complex, painful ways. When I tell you, it's gonna tear you guys apart. Like please just read it. Okay, I'm probably gonna say that a million times this session. Okay. All right, just a little story recap just about the siblings. Sam Kyle, Caden, your boy Caden, Mesmera, and Isaiah. So also, like, thank you for reminding me about him because I forgot about him, and he's very significant.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

So I don't know how because like in the last book, he was like such a big part of it. Oh, I know. But I know like you don't remember stuff that you read, like it goes in one eyeball and goes out the other.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

No, let's literally though. And then I think we oh no, that's a throwback.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Um, but yeah, we gotta do um when we do like Patreon eventually. We're gonna put I'm gonna put up that video, that my eye video.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Oh my god, with the filter. Yeah, I can't believe you still have that.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Throw that in the garbage. Okay. All right. Sam Kyle, Caden, Nismera, and Isaiah were raised in the system where survival, power, and protection mattered more than emotional safety or repair. Sam Kyle learned to show love through responsibility. Caden learned to express hurt through anger. Nismera learned that vulnerability was dangerous and that power was the safest option. And Isaiah learned to attach himself to whoever he perceived as family, prioritizing loyalty and protection over independence. As adults, they interact from those childhood survival roles rather than who they are in the present. And sorry, mine's gonna sound a little bit longer because I'm talking about four different people. So sorry about it. Okay. Presenting problem behaviors, Sam Kyle overfunctions and attempts to control outcomes. Hayden leads with anger before vulnerability, and his marriage loses power, control, and emotional distance over connection, and Isaiah suppresses autonomy and aligns with whoever he most is bonded to, prioritizing again loyalty over independent judgment. Um, some core themes parentification, comparison trauma, emotional triangulation, unprocessed shared grief, and identities built around roles, not individually. Um treatment goals would be relate as individuals, not roles, remove Sam Kyle from the parent position, increase differential.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

But he's such a daddy. Like, why wouldn't we do that?

SPEAKER_00 19:09

No, no. Well, I don't really want to do that, but like, yeah, yeah. Um, we'll get to it when we get to treatment plan and yeah, treatment team meeting, sorry. Same thing, right? Um, increase differentiation of self, rewrite the family narrative, translate anger control into grief, hurt, and remove emotional jobs each sibling carries. What progress might look like for them, present focused conversations, less reactivity, more honesty. Yeah, good luck with these four. Um connection without reenacting old patterns and individual outcomes that we're hoping for. Samkaya learns to love without managing. Caden expresses hurt without masking it as anger, and his marri shows no current movement toward healing because she's a D R T C H. Um, and Isaiah began shifting loyalty from power-based allegiance towards attachment-based protection aligning with Caden. So um, where we are right now, and this is an unfinished series, so we really don't know what the final outcome of all of this will be. But Sam Kyle and Caden are currently working together with Isaiah aligned with them. So they are working together now. It's very interesting, and Nismera remains stuck in power and control. And we'll have to see how that all um lays out. So, yeah, and I didn't even mention Diana, but she's a huge, huge link to all of these. Diana is the book. Yeah, basically.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Okay, before no, go ahead. I want you to finish. I have a question about the siblings. I'm done. Go. That was it. Oh perfect timing. Yeah, okay. Can we just talk about really briefly how these people were introduced to us? Like when we first met Caden, you don't know anything about him. He's the first male. No, he's not. They started it with that little I can get into your brain thing. But after that, like he's the first important person you know.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Yes, yeah. And like, what did you think of him initially? I hated him. I hated him. I hated him, and I think I had asked you, like, does he really love her? I I know I was questioning it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

But I think Yeah, I remember you asking me that. I was in my car in the parking lot at work when you asked me that.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Cause yeah, I was so into the book. I was so happy you were finally reading it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right. And then there was another one, Sam Kyle, when he we were first introduced to him. What'd you think?

SPEAKER_00 21:53

Um, I was I didn't instantly love him. Yeah, no, I didn't really, I was just kind of like whoa who is this guy like he's powerful and it was Liam remember yeah Liam yeah everyone has a different name yeah everyone has a different name but like I was like okay this Liam is their Caribbean name their calling name their calling name that's what it's called thank you well and and like literally Caribbean calling names it don't make sense so how do you get leam how do you get Liam from Sam Kyle Sam Kyle but they call me Liam you know I think and I might be jumping ahead a bit but whatever I feel like Isaiah because he's such a loyal person and we're seeing like how he is with this love interest I don't know if it's Imogen.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Yeah yeah yeah so it's like if his loyalty becomes with her and she's like one of Sam Kyle's triari if you will then I wonder if it came down to like Caden and Sam Kyle if he's like I'm gonna go with my bigger brother or whatever because you know I don't know well that's interesting so we'll see oh man I just need that next book yeah let's go yeah all right treatment team meeting okay so if all of these people walked into our offices okay well if Katniss walked into my office as a client first of all she didn't come here because she wanted to she's here because someone finally stopped needing her and that's when everything caught up in the first five minutes I would notice control she presents calm minimal emotion very composed but underneath that presentation is a nervous system that never learned what safety felt like um yeah so I'm more grouping them all together so like if they all walked into my office first of all um I feel like there would be a lot of silence Sam Kyle would probably be the one to kind of start approach you know start the talking Caden would be quiet Nismera would probably be rolling her eyes somewhere because she doesn't want to be there and Isaiah would just again just be there you know present.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

I think it would be really difficult like obviously to get them all in a room together I think would be impossible in reality but I mean I think if we're gonna have a really rough I might be very intimidated honestly so yeah okay yeah I don't know I can actually see all the brothers in the room together but not with Nasmera I feel like Nasmera would come there and shift the dynamic for sure.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Yeah that's very true yeah yeah okay so yeah what they'd say versus the real issue um so spoiler alert everyone Primrose is dead so Katniss is the only one here in my office yeah what Katniss would say the problem is she'd come in saying stuff like I can't relax I don't trust people I get irritated easily I don't know what I want and like seriously same but what we know the actual issue is her identity is fused with being needed safety has always been conditional and she doesn't know who she is when no one needs protecting yeah yeah that's reminding me of another character of course Ailen because always goes back to Ailen always always always um yeah so Samkay would probably actually know the real problem and be the one to verbalize that Nismera would definitely I think she would just say like they're the problem I'm not nothing is wrong with me.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Meanwhile she is the actual problem she started the whole thing like didn't she write that letter and yeah okay let me not spoil it more yeah um but Caden I don't feel like he would say much again I think he would be quiet and it would be like we would have to get him to talk a little bit um but his uh real I feel root issue would be like the childhood trauma um he goes back and forth even with himself you know um and he has to like be a tough person because that's what he kind of has been doing. Sam Kyle and Isaiah are gonna get into it because he cut his hand off yeah yeah yeah um but Isaiah I feel like um he would probably say like he it feels torn.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

I feel like he would be honest because uh yeah yeah but you know that I don't know I feel like towards the end of the book we started and listen I hate Caden but I think secretly I love Caden because towards the end of the series so far yeah we've started to like I've started to really like him. I've started to like see who he was and more of a backstory from him and like he just didn't have all the information. So had he known what the truth was I don't know if he would have gone so far to protect Nismira and do all this stuff that got him to be this bad guy.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

He's like a villain that needed therapy I oh my god yes well that's why you brought him up yeah well honestly he does fit every single episode that we've done so far except from now on this is called once upon a cadence cadence yes perfect because I'm sure he'll fit into every single episode we do next no but like I hated him in the beginning and like we're not even mentioning there is a common denominator with all of these people who's Diana and we're not talking about her but like she is kind of a huge part of this yeah not yet she's coming um but she's part of a huge part of all these people in this dynamic and um I did soften up towards the end with Caden and I I do have a soft spot for him as well. Yeah um so yeah but I love that I love when I'm this goes like um well we'll get to it when we talk about countertransference yeah yeah but yes um what would you work on first?

SPEAKER_01 28:46

So let's see what I would work on first. I'm not touching deep trauma processing right away. Right first yeah I left that for last too yay yeah we're gonna like start with some emotional regulation safety without performance um separating guilt from responsibility a lot of early sessions would focus on teaching catniss that rest doesn't equal danger care doesn't have to be earned and she doesn't have to stay alert for the other shoe to drop yeah I think that's yeah that's all but it's hard like I can only imagine that like she has this trauma response because right like literally rest did equal danger when she was in the games like she couldn't sleep she went up in that tree and then you know they were trying to taunt her with the bee and all that stuff so it's like how do you go back from from being in the hunger games to like just being outside again yeah no that that movie was so hard to watch yeah the book too she did a lot yeah yeah oh I never read the books obviously oh you'd have to more details but same same gesture gotcha okay I think with these four I would just the first thing I would do is learn to sit with feelings I'm not saying it's gonna go great but that guilt and responsibility I think that needs to be the next thing then I would do emotion regulation and I'm absolutely gonna do attachment and trauma work but that's at the end because they need to be able to sit in a room together and say what they feel about one another and that alone is gonna I'm gonna be redirecting all the time because there's gonna be a lot of fighting and arguing and power and this and that going on. And then there's gonna be Caden and Isaiah who may not say as much but they really need to be talking so yeah it's gonna be you got a lot like how do you say that thing you got your work cut out for you because like you got it yay finally and you're the one that's bad with sayings I know you know I I didn't want to call you out but yeah last time I forgot what it was but yeah you got it this time yeah but I think like it would be really important for you just as a therapist for this for this group of siblings I would have to see them one on one individually individually yes and then and then when they were ready maybe I would do like couples and then eventually come to all four of them because yeah they're dynamics. It's like like I said Isaiah might be more willing to say something if Nesmira isn't around and all three of them I think I think Sam Kyle is the only one that would just be like yes whatever because he was a standalone initially those other three were kind of a team and he was just on his own so and he's like the parentified one in all of this right yeah he's the golden child absolutely I would actually I don't really like couples or family therapy because because of this reason right um in real life I'm talking about so like yeah absolutely individually meeting with them would be the thing and then getting them all together I love that you're all I like couples I like couples and family therapy because I like to be like no let her finish talking let him speak you know I had one couple's session like recently when I not recently but like about a year ago or so and the whole time the couple was just yelling and screaming at one another and I was trying to like do that but like I just it was a lot and I think I got turned off by that and I was like you know I I can't I knew I couldn't manage it and I didn't do the right thing.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

So I was like no let me just maybe I'll try it again in the future but it was a lot.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

I say I like it right but maybe only in person because I did a um I did this family therapy I think I told you about this when I was doing private practice and it was a mother and daughter and I was like oh my God like every time I was about to meet with them like I would get the worst anxiety because I'm like clearly they just don't see eye to eye and the mom is saying this and the daughter saying this and they're both true. Like they're both saying what's true but it's like for whatever reason they couldn't hear each other no matter how much I said okay it's your turn to speak it's your turn to speak can you understand? Do you understand? But every week they came and they just continued to fight so it's like the burnout is real when it's like in couples therapy.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

Oh that's it's tricky yeah it's very very tricky and it's not for me right now maybe I'll revisit it but I also like don't want to provide a service that I'm not you know experienced in because that's not going to be good for them. So yeah cut myself but that's why you gotta do practice right that's true.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Um but also like I would be biased probably well speaking of bias yeah let's talk about some counter transference now yes yeah so perfect as I said at the top like I'm already speaking from experience so we can already imagine that I'm gonna be like sitting right there with cat and it's like yeah my prim does this your prim did that uh but no right so but honestly catniss would bring up a lot in me as a therapist there would be an urge to rescue an urge to overfunction because she underasks and honestly a pull to admire her strength while wanting to say you don't have to do this alone. This is the kind of client where you have to check yourself and ask am I helping or am I joining her survival plan? Especially because like I can feel her on that level like protecting a younger sibling it's I'm gonna be like yeah I get it. And so many times in therapy I feel like that you know like working with veterans and me being a veteran myself like sometimes I'm like yeah no totally I get that but it's not about me in the moment and even though my clients or my veterans they know I'm also a veteran they'll they'll use it and they'll be like you know because when we come here we try to do this and and I'm like yeah but at the same time I take myself out of it. This isn't about me being a veteran it's about me also being your therapist right now.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Right yeah oh that's a tough place to be because it's like you get it and like I don't relate to like everyone I see but like you like you guys have all experienced very similar things. So for you it's constant.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

Yeah we don't have this veteran's code just because we both served it's like you need to take the towel doll and go sit in a corner you know and that's just what it can't your toes yeah toes exactly no and you're so good at like calling people out like like in a really healthy tough love way that they need so I think it would be that's good that's good.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Um okay first of all Sam Kyle would definitely be a distraction because he is like the ultimate book boyfriend and if y'all need to read the book so you can know what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

You know what next session for the rest of this year we're just gonna read line by line gods and monsters yep yep that's it might as well change it to once upon a gods and monsters yeah and thrown a and throne of glass once a god always a monster yeah that's it on your throne of glass there you go are you the god or are you the monster oh maybe we should do a session oh yeah gods of monsters all right sounds good let's let's add it to the list yeah um so that would be my thing with him because he just and it's not even physical attraction i mean he's hot too but the way that he loves oh god he's just really is that what like so for Sam Kyle I think what made me instantly fall for him is how uh what's the word I'm trying to use it's not vulnerable it's how like maybe naive isn't the word but he was just so out of touch you know and Diana just had to be like no this is sarcasm this is this and like she had I love a man who's teachable but not in a like I'm so stupid I don't know anything way more like oh I've never experienced this and I get to show you it's like my TV shows you know I'm like when I meet someone when I meet when I'm dating a guy like I'm putting you on every single show I love because when I'm talking about it I need you to know what I'm talking about. So it's like I love a teachable moment and he was just so willing to learn so oh my god I forgot about okay see I'm rereading this forget yeah thank you I'm sold um all right you heard it live guys um yeah on top of that I would probably want to take his side all the time and that would be my issue because he's like I know he's gonna be the one that's gonna be right yeah for the most part you know what I mean for all the parts yeah for all the parts you're right um Caden I would have a I would feel sympathy so I might like take his side a little bit too Isaiah I would be like bro pick a side because like hurry up what are you doing yeah and I would just hate her yeah I hate her and that would be difficult to to tolerate um and I would probably be sitting there with all of them against her so that wouldn't be and I know you say that but then I also know you as a therapist and I know that you would maintain that professional boundary but it's just like just in your heart you know you just know like I've had clients that I'm just like oh why are you here? But then it's like but I know exactly why you're here and it's more about me like maybe I feel like this is a challenge but again right these are things that I feel like you should you can't see it in yourself. So then how can I help you change it if you can't acknowledge it. So we just gotta back up and go back to what your understanding of the problem is and maybe that's the work you do with Nismera you're like you know you have to go all the way back to like when the kids started being born and her deciding whatever this is her birthright this is this these people whatever yeah and I I mean and I say that and I know myself though but I would eventually like have empathy for her because she's coming from a place too where she probably has not probably she has her own trauma and guilt and all the things so yeah and this is why we have countertransference people because this happens you gotta take a step back and figure out your own emotions and feelings and then you got to come back in and refocus.

SPEAKER_00 39:57

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:57

Yeah so in order to do the interventions I think yeah you gotta just like you said you come back you focus and you start the work. So um when we're talking about interventions for catniss the work is actually very quiet. This isn't a client where we rush into trauma processing like I said this is a slow build because her nervous system equates urgency with survival. So first we're doing trauma informed attachment work. Katniss learned early that closeness came with responsibility if someone needed her she stayed if they didn't she didn't know where she belonged. So therapy becomes a relationship where she doesn't have to perform she doesn't have to rescue and she doesn't have to earn care. Just showing up consistently same time same tone that's already an intervention um but we'd continue with like parts work especially the protector part we're not trying to get rid of that part the protector kept people alive. We'd name it respect it and thank it and then gently start asking like what does this part think would happen if it rested you know and what has it cost her to always be on duty and then lastly I would work on emotional literacy with her. Katniss knows how to act she doesn't know how to feel so when we're explaining her emotional language beyond angry fine and tired that's where I'd start with her we're separating feelings from actions we're normalizing that she didn't learn this because she was busy surviving early sessions would look like naming needs out loud receiving help without deflecting letting someone else hold responsibility even briefly and noticing safety cues instead of scanning for a threat yeah wow those are such good interventions for her yeah she's she's a really really like interesting one because she I like I'm thinking of emotional cover chart like I'm just thinking of all the things because yeah and it really is true like when you she spent her whole life protecting her sister and like I said primrose is gone and even when you think about Rue I forget what district Rue was from but the little girl like she was so young and she kind of in the hunger game she treated Rue as though she was prim like she protected her even when Rue died you know like she used she spent that time to sit there and make a you know I can't say this word um a a burial you know how I say a burial a burial like she whatever she put flowers over her dead body that word that word and she did that and it's like she put herself she made herself vulnerable even though she knew like people could have used this time to attack her. But the point is like when you don't have anyone to care for anymore it's like what do you do you do become she's so used to that she's so used to that role yeah when you were saying the word trying to say the word I was like birya biria tacos those are my favorite kinds yeah there's this place in Brooklyn I went there um I went there a couple times but I went there recently and they did it and like they made the biria tacos but they put oxtail in it instead of the beach oh my god oh my god it was so good it was so good and then we took an Uber back home and the two girls that I was with each took turns like we were drunk obviously they each took turns like throwing up out the window and then we got an Uber bill the next day like for cleaning the car and I'm like it did not cost you $500 to clean the outside of the car because they didn't even throw up the kidding me yeah and it wasn't my Uber bill so I don't know if it got paid how did we get here from Bario to Beria okay it's not funny.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

It's very serious both of those things okay um okay what Would I be doing with these four? A whole lot of DBT. Yeah. A whole lot of DBT, emotion regulation. We need validation. We need boundaries.

SPEAKER_02 44:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:11

That's where I'm starting. Then we'll go to the trauma and attachment and all of that. But yeah, straight, straight dbt. And I'm gonna again, you know, it's gonna be a lot. I just a lot of arguing, a lot of cutting them off, and having them listen to each other and sitting with feelings, and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

I would do like role play with them too. Like I remember in school we did that, I don't remember what it's called, but it's like it was like the open chair, and like you would sit there and pretend like you were speaking to your mom or whatever it is, like in that chair. I would do that with them.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Yeah, oh my god, were you at that hospital when that guy used to come in and do psychodrama? No, okay. Well, there was a person who used to come in from the outside, but I loved psycho drama, yeah. And that was one of the things that he did, and it was I used to like sneak in the group just because I loved it, yeah, and just it was so powerful. Okay, we digress. Um, so yeah, all right, the hard truth, because you know we love hitting them with a hard truth statement. What you got?

SPEAKER_01 45:23

So, you know, I'd say if my hard truth for once rapport is solid, you know, because you're not gonna receive it until you trust me as your therapist, right? So here's the sentence I'd eventually say to Katniss. I would look her in the eye, and I would be like, Katniss, girl, you've learned that love meant responsibility, but you don't have to keep bleeding to prove you care.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

That's what I would say to her.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

Just simple and I would let it sit there.

SPEAKER_00 45:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I love when you would drop those lines and just sit with them, just get silent, and you would just, yeah. Yeah, oh man, I miss working with you. Okay, whatever. Here we go. Um, what do you call this? This is our job. I know this is true. I mean, like, you know, with client patients, clients.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

Well, these are our clients, and yes, they are.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

You're right, you're right, you're right. We're still working together, clearly.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:21

Um, okay, so yes, so same. I would wait to drop my truth bomb until the four of them can get to a place where they can at least like tolerate being in the room with one another, and some sort of listening is happening. Um, and my line would be love isn't the problem here. The way you learn to survive each other is.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

Yeah. And I feel like Sam Kyle, like, yes, it's clear I have a soft spot for him, right? But like, I feel like he is the victim here because he didn't even like he didn't even know those were his siblings. Like, at least they knew they were siblings, you know what I mean? And they all knew it. So, like, it he was just out here on his own doing his thing, and now he has this built-in family of people who hate him already because he's the golden child, and it just sucks. So, it's like you got to rebuild all those relationships or build those relationships. It's like enemies to lovers, but like enemies to siblings, right?

SPEAKER_00 47:29

Right. And I just and this is another reason. I have a million reasons. Well, we have together 23 million reasons why we love Sam Kayo, but he's also coming in and just open and wanting, he's not like angry or he's not wanting to interact with them, like he's so willing to work together and get to know his siblings.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

Because they hate him, he didn't hate them, right?

SPEAKER_00 47:55

Yeah, he was just offending himself. I just feel bad. Oh, see, here we go. My counter transference.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

All right, hold up.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

Well, let's bring this back to real life. Okay, yeah, let's just say this. If any of you saw yourself in catness, you might be the oldest sibling, you might be the fixer, the emotional adult in the room, the one who learned early that being useful kept people close. This episode isn't about taking your strength away, it's about asking, who are you when you're finally safe?

SPEAKER_00 48:30

Hmm. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

And for my line to add to that is you might not hate your sibling or siblings, you might hate the role that you had to play around them.

SPEAKER_01 48:43

Yeah. And you might not even like, even if you don't hate the role you had to play, it's like sometimes you get stuck in that role, and then your siblings, like just speaking as a sibling, right? Because I know you can't talk on this unless it's about me. But it's like it's like, you know, like my siblings, they expect me to be this person. And the siblings I grew up with, I was the oldest one. So now that we're all adults, it's like I don't have to be this person, and you don't have to like keep me in that role. But it's almost like it's built in. Like it was, I don't know, it was probably a couple of years ago, or maybe like a year ago. I remember me and Roche went out drinking. We went again in Brooklyn to the um the drunken lab or whatever. Shout out to them, they got us so drunk. I went there a couple of times, but um, we went and something, I don't remember, at some point she was moving the car. And I just sat there and I was like, Roche, you know how to drive? Because I'm still seeing her. Roche is what, 26 years old this year, or she'll be 27 this year, I think. And I was just looking at her, and it's like I always see Roshea as though she were three years old, no matter how like I've been in her life since she was born, but I can only see her as three. So for me to make those comments, like, what are you doing driving? You know how to park, you know how to parallel. Like, but it's like, how can I still see her as three and then expect her not to still see me as oh, this is my older sister, this is my protector. Like, I have to be able to understand that it's not just one way, so yeah, we're just stuck in these roles forever.

SPEAKER_00 50:20

Yeah, it's so funny because every time you talk about her, I always like picture her being like a little girl, too. Yeah, so true, yeah. Because you look like a grown-ass woman now. So yeah, oh, I love that. It's crazy. I wish I knew what that feeling was. I mean, well, give us another 20 years.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

You're gonna be like, I remember when Vanessa was the intern.

SPEAKER_00 50:46

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I saw no, I really do have those like proud moments, though. Like, yeah, and I've told you this a lot lately, just hearing you, just like even like as we're doing this, I'm just hearing you talk about like how you would do things, and I'm just like, oh, look at her go. I'm so proud.

SPEAKER_01 51:05

And I literally learned it from you. I mean, just sitting left seat, right seat. That's a military term, left seat, right seat, but like just sitting next to you as you were like showing me, and I shadowed you for for weeks before you even really let me talk to people and just listening to what you're saying. So, like my foundation is coming from what you taught me. So I I assume that has to be like a a sister thing as well. Like, she only knows this because I showed her, just like Roche. She only acts like this because this is what she grew up with. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:38

Well, yeah, thanks for that perspective. Because you know, obviously, I'm not looking at it that way. Cause yeah, but like, yeah, and I feel like, well, now I don't know the saying, but the um, well, it's like now you're like better than the master. So, like, I don't know how to whatever, but like, yeah, so I know what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 51:56

Like, now the teacher becomes now the student becomes the teacher, some sure.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

Wait, what did Dwight Schroot say in that episode? Like, always the Padawan, never the master. What did he say? Probably, yeah, something like that.

SPEAKER_01 52:12

Never the Jedi or who knows?

SPEAKER_00 52:14

Yeah, it's Dwight Schrute. All right, whatever, guys. You you better know what we're talking about, also. Yeah, all of you out there, figure it out. But um, yeah. All right, so okay, so like this is just random. If you had to pick any one of these people we're talking about to have as a sibling, who would you pick?

SPEAKER_01 52:35

Oh god, this is hard because like obviously I would want Sam Kyle, but right, I feel but I can't. I can't, yeah. I would that would be weird, and this is not yeah, this is not yeah, yeah. This is not that. Um I would say I'd honestly say Caden. I would probably um I might pick Prem, honestly. And I I don't know, I don't know why it's not like I want to protect her, but I I would pick Prem.

SPEAKER_00 53:08

Yeah, who would you pick? Yeah I might pick Caden because I always wanted an older brother who would like protect me. Shout out to all your siblings, yeah. All of them, all of y'all, all of them, all of them. I'm gonna borrow some. Yes. Well, no, actually, no, I have you. That's more than enough.

SPEAKER_01 53:28

They're all just little pieces of me, anyway. So you get the whole package over here.

SPEAKER_00 53:33

That is very, very true. All right, well, uh, guess what time it is, guys? Is it time for rapid fire? It's time for our favorite part of chaos. Yes, you know, you know we love our mini games. Mini game number one, group chat red receipts. Okay, let's go. Go first, go.

SPEAKER_01 53:56

Who reads immediately but waits to respond? Um, I think Caden.

SPEAKER_00 54:02

Yep, yes, yep, yep, yeah. Um, who never responds but reacts later in person? Nismera.

SPEAKER_01 54:10

Nismera. Yeah. Okay. Who leaves the chat emotionally but not literally? Isaiah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:19

Oh my oh my god, Katniss, any of these who sends the paragraph?

SPEAKER_02 54:26

Sam I L. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 54:30

Who sends L O L and means nothing by it? Isaiah. I think Isaiah.

SPEAKER_00 54:38

Okay, yeah, you're right. Nismera probably wouldn't even respond. You're right. Who screenshots Isaiah? Isaiah's trying to build his case. That's what he's trying to do. Yeah, actually, yeah. Um, who turns red receipts off to avoid accountability? Nismera. Caden. Really?

SPEAKER_01 55:03

I think so. Who types, stops, types, stops, and never sends? Isaiah. Isaiah.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

Or Isaiah.

SPEAKER_01 55:15

Isaiah's so torn. I love him though.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

Who sends voice notes no one asks for? Sam Kayle.

SPEAKER_01 55:21

Sam Kyle. Who responds only to one part of the message and ignores the rest? Caden.

SPEAKER_00 55:29

Caden. Yeah. Yeah. Uh who drops a meme instead of addressing the issue? Ms. Mara. Yeah. Probably send that meme or like, you know, they're putting the crown on Rihanna's head, like that one. Like, yeah. Okay, go. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 55:48

Who sends K and starts a war?

SPEAKER_00 55:51

Oh Lord. Ms. Mara.

SPEAKER_01 55:54

Yeah, I'd say Miss Mara, too.

SPEAKER_00 55:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:58

Oh my god, is Katniss doing any of these? She's in the Hunger Games during this chat.

SPEAKER_00 56:02

Yeah, right. She's fighting for her life. Yeah. All right. Who disappears mid-conflict and comes back like nothing happened? Caden. Caden. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:14

Who reacts with an emoji instead of responding?

SPEAKER_00 56:16

Isaiah. Oh, okay. Uh, who privately messages one? Isaiah. Yeah. He's messaging Caden like, Caden, I just want you to know, like, I'm loyal to you. Don't listen to what they're saying.

SPEAKER_01 56:34

Yeah. Um, who's clearly online but not answering?

SPEAKER_00 56:40

Nesmera. Yeah. Well, is she even online? I mean, honestly, does she even? Yeah. No. But yeah. Um, who sends me to talk then logs off?

SPEAKER_01 56:55

Isaiah. Isaiah, maybe Kaden, but I think Isaiah. Maybe Caden too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Who scrolls up to reread old arguments?

SPEAKER_00 57:06

Samkayo. Yeah. Who deletes messages after sending them? Me. Me too. Yeah. I don't know. That's us. Um, who lurks silently but knows everything? I think maybe Miss Nara. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely not Sam Kyle lurking silently. He's in there. Yeah. Okay. All right. Alright. Next, next mini game. Who gets away with it? Alright. Who gets away with disappearing? Katniss. Yeah, yeah, hands down. That's it. Period. Done. Next. Who gets away with saying the wrong thing? I think Primrose. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 58:08

Yeah. Because she's so innocent. Like.

SPEAKER_00 58:10

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That doesn't apply to any of these four over here.

SPEAKER_01 58:15

Um who gets away with not explaining themselves? I think that's Mara.

SPEAKER_00 58:23

Yeah, she does.

SPEAKER_01 58:25

She did for like four books.

SPEAKER_00 58:27

She did. She did. You're right. You're right. That's a fact. Okay. Who absolutely does not get away with anything? Poor Sam Kyle.

SPEAKER_01 58:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:39

Yeah, Sam Kyle. Poor man. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 58:43

Who gets away with being emotionally unavailable? I say Katniss. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

I say Ms. Mara. Yeah, catnus too. Yeah. Honestly, Katniss, you can do whatever you want, girl. Yes. You you yeah, you do been through it. Who gets away? Yeah. Oh. Who gets away with avoiding accountability?

SPEAKER_01 59:09

I say this one might be um Krim and Nismera. Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 59:16

Yeah, I agree with that. Uh who gets away with doing the bare minimum? Isaiah.

SPEAKER_01 59:26

Yeah. Who gets away with being harsh because that's just how they are?

SPEAKER_00 59:31

Nismera, probably.

SPEAKER_01 59:33

Also Katniss.

SPEAKER_00 59:35

Yeah. Yeah. Who gets away with showing up late to everything? Sam Kyle, because he's literally ending worlds over the years.

SPEAKER_01 59:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:45

He matter of fact, he gets away with everything at the end. Who gets away with breaking promises? I say Nismera.

SPEAKER_00 59:53

Yeah. Yeah. That girl gets away with a lot too. I don't like it. Who gets away with never apologizing? Again, Nismera.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:04

Yeah. Who gets away with starting conflict and then stepping back? Nismera. Yep. Who gets away with playing the victim? Caden.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:21

Who gets away with rewriting history? Fucking Nismera. Bitch, you literally rewrote history and you fucking killed their mom. Sorry. Spoiler. Not sorry. Read the fucking book.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:31

Yeah, no, we hate her. So yeah. Also, also read the book. Okay. Yeah. Um, who gets away with acting like nothing happened? It's Nismera again.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:42

Yeah, Nasmera. Who gets away with being the favorite? Primrose.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:50

Sam Kyle. Because he is the favorite. Period. Um, who gets away with saying things no one else could say? Sam Kyle.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:59

Yeah. Who gets away with being distant? Caden. Katniss.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

Yeah. Who gets away with crossing boundaries? Caden.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:14

Caden. In my sibling set. Who gets away with this book? Oh yes, I love it. Let's let's see. Who gets away with disappearing? I think I do. You do. Yeah. I also get away with not explaining myself.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:30

Let's see.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:32

Who gets away with showing up late to everything? I say Raymond does. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:41

You mean it's not you now?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:43

It's not me. It's Raymond. Who gets away with acting like nothing happened? Roche.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:49

Roche. Yeah. I'm not even part of the family, and I know that.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:54

And the last one, who gets away with being the favorite? I'd say Roche.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:00

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:01

Okay. Love that. All right. Okay, guys. So as always, the fun is over, but we're not going to leave you hanging for too long. So here's a little teaser for our next episode. All right.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:18

Next session, we're talking about something very different. What happens when the past won't stay in the past? Closure, unfinished business, and the belief that peace only comes after resolution. Because sometimes the hardest part to let go of is the version of yourself that never got closure.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:36

All right. That's it for this session. Hope you and your siblings are all getting along now after this. And if not, go to therapy and figure it out. Yeah. All right. That's it. See you next week.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:52

See you next week. We want you to be a part of this world with us. Send us your book recommendations, character obsessions, or topics you want us to cover.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:01

You can find us on Instagram and TikTok at once upon a session pod.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:06

Or email us at info at onceupona sessionpod.com if you want to share thoughts, suggestions, or just scream about a plot twist with us. So are we charging for this session?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:17

Emotionally always.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:20

See you next session. Same couch, same chaos. Bye-bye.