Session 7: Hard to Love- When Empathy Gets Complicated

Some characters are easy to love.

Nesta Archeron and Jaime Lannister aren’t.

In this episode, we unpack what it really means when someone is labeled “hard to love”—and how trauma, shame, identity, and self-protection can push people away from the very connection they need most.

Because sometimes… the people who seem the hardest to love are the ones hurting the most.

Disclaimer: We’re licensed therapists, but not your therapists. This podcast is for reflection and conversation, not a substitute for therapy.

✨ Follow Once Upon a Session for new episodes exploring stories, psychology, and healing.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Some people don't make it easy to care about them. Actually, some people make it really hard. They push you away, say the wrong things, cross the line, and somehow still need the most understanding. And as therapists, that's where it gets complicated. Because what do you do when someone needs empathy? But everything in you is struggling to give it. This is Once Upon a Session, where two therapists turn their TBR pile into treatment plans. And every story becomes a session. I'm Vanessa.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

And I have compassion fatigue. Okay, guys, welcome back. Just a quick disclaimer before we dive in.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

We're both licensed therapists, but we're not your therapist.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Everything we share here is for conversation, reflection, and maybe a little inspiration.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

But it's not a substitute for therapy. If you're struggling, please reach out to a mental health professional who can give you the care and support you deserve.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Now that you're all checked in, have a seat on our couch. Alright, welcome back. Welcome back. Hello, hello. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being here. Alright. Well, let's get into it.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Yeah, because today's topic is a tough one.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Yeah, because we're talking about people who are hard to love. And not in a cute, misunderstood way. And this is gonna be a long session kind of way. Oh my god. So I should maybe just give a little bit of background of how we came up with this topic.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

So I was actually in session and um it was a really hard session to have because I've been having some counter transference. And it's just been hard to see the same person and manage all of that. And I was just thinking about it, and um, I think that's how we came up with the topic for this. So yeah, it's just like in books and in real life when people are just hard to love, but somehow you have to like figure it out, and it comes eventually.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

So yeah. Before we get into the characters, we have to talk about why some people feel so hard to empathize with. Sometimes it's not the person, it's the behavior. But when the behavior is constant, it starts to define how we feel about them. A lot of hard-to-love behavior is actually defense, control, anger, avoidance.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

It's protection.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

And as therapists, we feel that you feel frustrated, irritated, sometimes even resistant.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

And that's important information. Yeah, empathy isn't always easy, especially when someone keeps hurting others or you. You can understand someone without agreeing with them.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

And empathy doesn't mean tolerating harmful behavior. So being hard to love doesn't mean someone is unworthy of empathy.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

It just means empathy takes more work. And fiction gives us the perfect examples of this.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Because some of these characters really test us. Oh my god, yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

You know those characters that make you pause?

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Because you don't know if you like them all the time. This happens all the time. Yeah. I mean, we have so many characters we hate, but then we talked about ones that like we came to love after a certain time. Or we got their backstory or whatever. Exactly. And I know like both of us are such backstory people. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Yeah, but some characters lose us immediately.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Yeah, and we spend the rest of the story trying to figure out if they can come back from that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

They're not one-dimensional, they're layered, messy, contradictory. Some characters grow. And some stay stuck, unfortunately. Even when they frustrate us. We're still trying to understand them, and that's so us. And that's what makes them compelling and exhausting.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Okay, so let's talk about how kind of towards the end, I don't remember because I feel like we read all the books like two it was so long ago, but then we read it back to back. There was no wait period for us, like as we were reading Avatar. Yeah. So this is the first time one of the books haven't been out, you know, since we've had it, you know, she's just now gonna put this book out. So um, so for us, you know, how it's like you hate a character, they're they're hard to love, and then it's like you have a whole year to hate them, you know, versus with Nesta, like we did it, and then we had the other book, and then we had the novella, and then we didn't really care about her because we were so focused on what Farah and um I almost called them Kingfisher, Resand was doing. Yeah, so but with Nesta, it's like I just remember really not liking her and but still being able to see pretty fast like how things came together because that series the series was complete.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Yeah, no, I agree. I'm even thinking about like sorry, I know, gods of monsters, like hating Caden and then like not having to wait to hate him. Yeah. Because I just moved on to the next book. Exactly. But like, yeah, um, yeah, I'm trying to think like so like who I feel like Dane Atos, I still hate him, and I'm still waiting for like this book now. Yeah. So like I'm still hating him.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

I still hate his father. Like, I hate his father so much. Yeah, yeah. Um like I hated Umbridge. I hated her. Like Umbridge is terrible. I hated her.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

She's like my second most hated character. Yeah. I think like Joffrey is Joffrey. Oh my god. Ramsey Bolton.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Oh fucking Ramsey. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Well, we're talking about Game of Thrones here. So perfect.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Um, yeah, yeah, it was hard. Like with Ramsey and Reek, it was very hard to watch that.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Yeah. Um, and I hated Theon too. Like before he Yeah, I hated him too.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

But then I was like, oh my god, no matter what, you still see a person and you see someone being hurt and tortured and like broken.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

Yeah, so he's like a hard to love, yeah. I will never love Ramsey Bolton. No, he got exactly what he deserved, yeah. So did Joffrey, so Cersei needed more. I needed her death to be.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Oh my god, you know who I could have done for hard to love? Like, I can do her on the spot, Regina Fucking Mills, Regina Mills. No, okay, but yeah, you know what I mean? Like she was hard to love, but then she really came around. Yeah, like they they really turned it around for her.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

All right, let's get into it, ma'am. Who you got on your couch today? All right, who do you hate to love?

SPEAKER_01 7:12

Today I have Nesta Archeron. Oh, or hard to love.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

I said hate to love. Also hate to love.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

Yeah, same. Nesta!

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Yes, okay, love it.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Yeah, so Nesta's from Accord of Thorns and Roses. Whoop whoop, six and seven coming soon. Can't wait for that. Yeah, same. Um it's set in a high fantasy world divided between humans and faith, structured by power, hierarchy, and survival. And in that world, Nesta Archeron exists in constant tension. She's human, turn Faye against her will, stripped of choice, stripped of identity, forced into a life that she never asked for. And while everyone around her adapts, Nesta doesn't. She resists. What makes her story um compelling isn't just what happened to her, it's how she responds to it. Because Nesta doesn't process pain in a way that's easy to sit with. She becomes angry, sharp, distant, she pushes people away, especially the ones trying to get close. And over time that pain doesn't just isolate her, it shapes how people experience her. Because with Nesta, the challenge isn't understanding her pain, it's staying empathetic in the face of how she treats others. And that's what makes her such a strong example for this conversation. She's not hard to love because she lacks depth depth. She's hard to love because of how her pain shows up. Yeah, and Nesta's not easy. No, she's not.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Okay, so like when you first met Nesta, hello? What? Tell us.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

She doesn't really give you much to work with. Yeah. Like, you know.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

I hated her in the beginning. Yeah. I hated her actually for all the books except the last one. Mm-hmm. She's not warm, she's not inviting. No, not at all.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

And like when you very first meet her, it's fucking what's her sister? Um Farah.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Uh-huh. Farah is like, isn't she the youngest one? And she's like taking care of it.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Deline's the youngest. Oh. Yeah, yeah. Well, she's Well, Farah's the one that's out there doing stuff. Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Getting hunting and shit.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

And I feel like Nesta and Elaine aren't doing anything. So that made me kind of hate Nesta because I'm like, why would you have your little sister outside? Yes, yeah. And then you're not even grateful about it.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Yeah. Sibling dynamics. Yeah. Yeah, no. I didn't like her. Like, I've she was just rude and mean and hard and just a turn-off. Yeah. Yeah, even our faces right now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Alright. So presenting problem behaviors, Nesta leads with anger and defensiveness in place of vulnerability. She pushes others away when connection is offered, engages in self-sabotage, isolation, withdrawal, destructive coping, rejects support when simultaneously struggling with disconnection. And communication is reactive, cutting, and often meant to create distance. Core themes, shame-based identity, which is thinking like I am the problem. Yeah. Loss of control, forced identity shift, emotional avoidance and numbing, fear of vulnerability and rejection. Yeah. And self-worth tied to perceived failure. Oh my God. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Those are so accurate for her.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

Yeah. Yeah. Just imagine like how her family is in their shed or cottage or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Yeah. Yeah. How can you not? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

How can you not just tie that to like who you are and you're like, okay, well, I'm not gonna go out there and try to do anything because this is life is just me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

This is my life, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:08

It's not that she can't connect, it's that she won't. Or maybe more accurately, she doesn't feel safe enough to. So instead, she keeps people at a distance. She says the things that will push you away. She shuts down the moment things start to feel too real. And if you're on the receiving end of that, it's exhausting because you can see there's more there, you can feel it, but she's not letting you access it. And over time, that creates this really complicated dynamic where you understand her, but you also struggle to tolerate her. With Nesta, the challenge isn't figuring out what she's been through, it's staying open to her while she's actively pushing you away.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

I was testing your empathy this week. Well, there were quite a few options, however, I went with Jamie Lannister from Game of Thrones. And if you guys don't know what Game of Thrones is, just seriously just log off and never come back. Um, alright, so Game of Thrones by George R.R. Martin is a political fantasy centered around power, loyalty, identity, and survival in a morally complex world. Characters are constantly forced to make impossible choices where right and wrong are rarely clear. Jamie Lannister's storyline explores honor, reputation, identity, and what it means to be seen beyond your worst decisions. Alright, and now in terms of Jamie's recap. So Jamie grows up in a powerful family, the Lannisters, the Lions. Where loyalty and legacy matter more than emotional truth. He becomes known for one defining act that labels him as dishonorable, shaping how the world sees him and how he sees himself. Over time, Jamie struggles between who he's been told he is, who others believe him to be, and who he might actually want to become. Underneath his arrogance and detachment is someone who feels deeply misunderstood, carries guilt, and doesn't fully believe he can be anything other than the version of himself the world already decided on, which is King Slayer. Um yeah, I feel like he was judged for that. And also, like obviously, if you've seen the show, you know his relationship with Cersei and all the kids that are allegedly Robert Barathians, but definitely not. Um so yeah, Jamie has some serious fine family dynamics. I was gonna say financial dynamics. Serious family dynamics with um oh, they would have been good to do for siblings. Yeah, Jamie, Tyrion, and Cersei. Oh yeah. Alright, whatever. Maybe next season. Next season. Um but yeah, I think his family, his role in his family also played a big part of that. So yeah. Um, when I first met Jamie, obviously he was doing his sister, and I was like, wait a minute, what is going on here? And I hated him for a very, very long time. And I think I finally started turning the corner. Yeah, no, absolutely off the wall, yeah, and just his whole like how he interacts with everyone, his family, and all of that. I started turning the corner, I think, when he was separated from all of that. Yeah, and then Brianne came into his life. Yeah, we started to see him soften a little bit, and he started to try to find his own way and his own identity. So towards the end, yeah, towards the end, definitely had a little bit more empathy for Jamie. Yeah, so yeah. So just some um problem behaviors. He uses arrogance and sarcasm as emotional defense, pushes people away before they can reject him, struggles with accountability and verse defensiveness, identity tied to reputation and past actions, engages in self-sabotage in relationships, avoids vulnerability by leaning into the villain role, difficulty trusting that change is possible, and emotional detachment disguised as self as confidence. Um, so just some like treatment goals, interventions for him. Um, separate identity from past mistakes, increase accountability without collapsing into shame, build emotional awareness and expression, um, change defensive patterns like sarcasm, detachment, um, develop a sense of self not rooted in reputation. And then I feel like eventually Jamie would be able to take accountability without self-destruction, allow himself to be seen beyond the mask, engage in relationships with honesty instead of defense, um, reduces the need to play a villain role and makes choices aligned with values, not reputation. So, as far as the outcome for Jamie, Jamie does not find healing by rewriting his past. He finds it by choosing who he wants to be moving forward, even if no one believes him. And that's kind of how his story ends in uh Game of Thrones. Well, it really does end, so yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that's Jamie. Okay, clipboards out, treatment team meeting time. If they walked into our office. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

So immediate impressions. Nesta wouldn't come in open. She would be guarded and defensive and probably irritated that she even has to be there. Um, and within minutes, it would be very easy to label her as difficult.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

I can't even imagine Nesta even wanting to ever do therapy. Because she's so like, let me figure it out on my own. She's just so guarded, you know? And I get it. Um, if Jamie Lannister walked into my office, I I don't really know how I'd feel. I think I'd be okay with it. I'd be like, oh, this is gonna be a good challenge because he's not someone that like obviously I'm gonna read some kind of information.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

I'm gonna be like, oh, this is kind of like I would prefer it if he came in before he got his hand chopped off.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Yeah, because after then he would have you know, he would just come home. Oh no, I wore baggage from the beginning. Yeah. And I hate him. Yeah. It's just a little more baggage, that's all.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

Right. Yeah. So I would just I would be like, oh, okay, this is gonna be very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Because like my counter transference. Anyway, yeah. So that would kind of be my um I think he would be willing to come in and talk. I don't feel like he would be resistant at all. I'm sure he was dying to talk about this stuff.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Immediate clinical impression. Well, I think Jamie would definitely be a little confident, maybe a little arrogant, you know. But I think like he would put up again that like sarcasm, detachment, like that kind of affront.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

What they'd say versus the real issue? She probably wouldn't even name a real problem. If anything, she'd focus on other people, what they've all done, and how they don't understand her. But that's not the issue. She's not struggling with other people. She's struggling with shame, loss of control, and a fractured sense of self.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Um, so I think Jamie would probably say, like, people misunderstand me, or it doesn't matter what I do, or I don't care what people think, you know, because he's just arrogant like that. Um, but I think underneath he's feeling like shame tied to his identity, fear that change won't be recognized, just emotional avoidance and a lot of internal conflict. Yeah. What would we work on first?

SPEAKER_01 19:24

I wouldn't push vulnerability right away. Um, that would shut her down immediately. Yeah, absolutely. First priority is safety, helping her feel like she can exist in this space without being forced to open up, and then slowly building emotional awareness because anger is what she shows, but it's not what she feels.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Um, for Jamie, I think I would probably start with like emotional awareness.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Because I feel like he's just gonna be putting on a front, you know, again, and like there's definitely more underneath that. Um I think attachment patterns would probably be next, and then like identity reconstruction for sure. Like those would be the three things. Yeah, yeah, that I would focus on first. Yeah, all right, countertransference, because we hate them, yeah. Yeah, all right.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

So with Nessa, there's a real pull to feel frustrated, to feel like pushed away, and that can make you want to either disconnect or try too hard. So I'd have to stay really aware of that, like not take it personally and not respond with the same distance she's expecting. And yeah, she's gonna be hated her.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Yeah, I know. Yeah, it's so hard to work with someone who's just not just willing to engage and just comes with an attitude and shut down, and it's like, okay, well, what do you want me to do? Like, are you ready to do this or not?

SPEAKER_01 20:59

Yeah, you know, it's not and if it's like a part of their process or whatever it is, it's still just yeah, something like you feel it when you're doing therapy, and you're just like, okay, this person isn't engaged. It's like it's a heavy session, and it's yeah, uh and it's uncomfortable, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

And it's like, okay, so am I supposed to sit here with you, Nesta, for 45 minutes and just be quiet? Like, you know, you'll do it. Yeah, but then even if you try to do like, oh, you're quiet, like what's going on in your head, she'd probably be like, nothing.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

You know, just very resistant. Yeah, yeah, she's tough. Um, so the counter transference I have with Jamie is probably like wanting to like well, I would be so annoyed with his arrogance, and I would have I would have the urge to want to just like humble him. Yeah. You know? Um, yeah, and I'm sure like I would definitely Definitely want to challenge him because he does a lot of nonsense. And then I feel like I'd have that, like, you know, I don't like you, but I get you kind of feeling, you know. And I think that's when I would kind of turn the corner. But um, yeah, I would be like, look at this arrogant. Get out of here. Put your stupid cloak. Oh my god. Put your stupid Kingsley cloak. What kind of interventions are you using with Nesta?

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Treatment goals and intervention. Increased emotional awareness beyond anger. Separate identity from coping behaviors. Reduce shame-driven self-concept. Build tolerance for safe connection. Replace self-sabotage with adaptive coping. Translate anger into underlying emotions. And what progress looks like for Nesta, less immediate reactivity, increased ability to pause before pushing others away, more honest emotional expression, tolerance for closeness without withdrawal, connection that doesn't end in rupture. So Nesta begins to allow connection without immediately rejecting it, showing gradual movement toward vulnerability and self-acceptance, though progress remains slow and nonlinear. Yeah, she, I think the reason why she progressed so much is because she had Cassian. Cassian was there, and like we said, like he had all that patience with her. And you know, she had her stairs, she had a mission, like she had something to look forward to. So she was able to say, like, I'm gonna climb these stairs, like this isn't gonna get the best of me. Like, you know, like so to have something to conquer, yeah. I think once she was able to conquer something, then she's like, I can do anything, and then she like the death mask, like it's real. Oh my god, you know, like she pulls some strength out of herself, and and then even having the crossover with Crescent City, yeah, yeah, and then you have her and Bryce there, and you're like, Okay, well, I'm gonna put both of them. No, I'm just kidding. No, but like, we're gonna put this mask on. Yeah, she had to do what she had to do, and it's like we saw her grow, we saw her like face that part of inside of her, and then to know, like now she wherever she was with Bryce, she can have the control, she can just take the mask on and say, like, okay, let me put this death on and handle business, and then take it off and then be like it's still a little challenging, but you know, like to see her still growing from that is amazing, and like even when she had to like save Vera's life, yeah, you know, like that was a lot, and it was just nice to see even their relationship get stronger, like the more she healed, yeah, you know, and not for nothing, like Nesta would not be Nestor now without Cassian.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Hell no, and that's I think that's exactly what I was trying to say. The only reason she progressed the way she did was because she had someone in her corner, yeah. Because constantly seeing like or constantly interacting with people who you just have this surface level relationship with, it it's not gonna get you anywhere like when you're in Nesta's situation. She needed someone to be able to hold a space for her because if she had just had the relationship with Farah, she would have been like, Oh, hey, okay, good, give me money so I can go drink and let me go do my thing. It would have been transactional, it would have been whatever. She would have probably said hello to Azrael and the rest of them and not really had anything deep. Like and Cassian held her accountable.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

Yeah. So for Jamie, I would do a lot of cognitive restructuring, emotional literacy, and and probably challenging some black and white thinking.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

Yeah. All right. Now the hard truth that we would hit him with.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

So for Nesta, the hard truth would be pushing people away might protect you from rejection, but it also guarantees disconnection. So she pretty much like has to know that whatever she does is just she's on her own. Like she's just gonna go down this path. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

That's so true, yeah. And she does by herself for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

Until Cassian comes around and has that patience with her that she doesn't get. But it's like even though she doesn't get it, it doesn't matter because no one likes her, so they don't care that she's not getting that support.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Yeah, he's the only one who like stopped and actually paid attention and was patient with her, like you said. And then it's just so beautiful. Yeah, yeah. Um, so I think that I would tell Jamie you act like you don't care because it's safer. Yeah, yeah. Because if he does, there's a lot he gotta deal with there.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

I feel like that applies to every part of Jamie's life. Like that's just how he acts, like he interacts with his siblings like that, with his father. Yeah, like that, with his girlfriends or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

I think like I see his softness come out with Tyrion a little bit more. And I love that because I love Tyrion so much. Um but I feel like they have like a really good relationship, but then like Jamie's afraid to show that to Tyrion because of Cersei, and like it's just this again, he's in this spot.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Is he the middle child, like for real?

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Yeah. Okay, well that makes sense, I guess. Yeah. All right, let's bring it back to real life. Um, I think that I kind of want to continue on that topic of not caring, and not caring is often protection. Like, you know, when you're like, oh whatever, I don't care.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

It's like, no, but you do care, you're just avoiding something.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Um and in in a sense, it's making things hard to love for you. Yeah, you know. So yeah, just a little circle there with that. Okay, but what about you?

SPEAKER_01 28:30

Just that it's not the expectation isn't like from anger to softness overnight, um, but from protection to willingness. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:43

Yeah, and that's so applicable with Nasta.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Yeah, yeah. So Nesta Nasta was really hard to love, I think, as a character, and then again, bringing it back to when we were reading it, I just had no idea I was gonna connect with her so much. Right. And I remember. And that was good, and that was during a time where like I could really relate to like her I remember herself. Yeah, so yeah, it's hard, and I think it's not just about the character themselves, but like who we are when we're reading a specific um a specific book or chapter or whatever, because it's different, it's different when you can see what are the things that are bothering you most, and then you compare that to your current situation, and you're like, oh, okay, well, this is why I'm having a hard time to love them.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Right. And when we reread it now, like you're not in the same place that you were then, so like you may have to be.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Yeah, so I don't hate K all anymore. Right. He's not hard for me to love.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

That's like such the beauty in rereading things, is because like exactly what you're saying. It's where you are in life and how you're interpreting it. Yeah. And when you look at like what is it that's getting to me and why, yeah. Yeah. And even rewatching Game of Thrones, because I've rewatched it so many times, you know, I know like how Jamie ends up, you know. Um so it was like looking at him in the beginning and just seeing that um process. Um and I really again I really appreciated his relationship with Tyrion, if anything, because I know that's the only time we got to see him be genuine, like a real person and not have to put on this front and be that tough guy and you know, whatever. But live for your dad's standards and then live for Cersei's standards, and you always gotta be on Cersei's side all the time, because if you're not then like, you know, it's crazy. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

Yeah. I'm trying to think of who else it might be hard to love. Yeah. But it I'm just saying, like, just to like I guess close out on that last Nesta piece, it really like I said, it was a shift in my reading as I was reading it, and I and it hit me like, wow, this is hard for me to love because this is hard for me to love for myself. Yeah. So it's like that makes it so powerful. And I I agree. But I wonder now if when I read this book, um, this time around, by the time we get back to Avatar, like I'm not in the same place I was when I read it years ago. So like I wonder if I'm gonna be able to hold Nesta in a safe space this time around, versus you know, being like, Oh my gosh, she's so hard. Like, she's so she won't give these people a chance. She's she's sabotaging, she's just drinking her life away, like she's you know, right setting these goals that she's not achieving. Like, she's all the things that like I you know, right? So I wonder how this is gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

I can't.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Well, we have to obviously just like with um Elena, um, with Aylen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like I wonder how we're gonna act in this book.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Yeah. Right now I'm just appreciating Ailen, like, like no matter what she's going through, she's gonna be sarcastic, she's gonna be in a hole, she's gonna say what she's gonna say, she's gonna be a pain in the ass. And like, I don't think I recognized she was doing that throughout all the pain she was still carrying. Like, again, it's like a mask, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:25

Um and remember, she was so young, wasn't she? Like 16. Yeah. In the books, like when we first met her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, yeah, she was young.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

She started her life of trauma and drama at a very, very young age. And that's so real, because people in real life, yeah, that's how they start out.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Yeah, of course. Yeah. And then it's like by the time you you gr get old enough to feel like, okay, now I can do something about it, or like in her case, like now she's an assassin and she can fight her way through this and that, like, she still can't ever go back to the you know, the initial stressor. Yeah, you know, so it's like, yeah, you can be as tough as you want to be now, but the thing that was most important to you is already gone. Right. So it's just like, yeah, I'm just prepared, I guess, coping ahead. But really, what are we doing? Because you already lost it all.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:23

Yeah. Not to say like what to come isn't amazing for her. Right, right, right. It's just yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's if you're fighting for your why, you know, the whatever.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Yeah. Yeah. And just like relating this back to real life and like how I get through those moments where I'm like, oh my god, like this person is really like and I felt like the same multiple times in a row where I'm like dreading going into session because I can't. Yeah, you know, and I consider like even terminating and referring to a different source, but then something in me is like, all right, like this person has all these things, and like, am I gonna be another person just giving up on them, you know? And then I have to try to stick it out. But like, if I'm too uncomfortable, obviously I'll do the right thing, you know. Um but yeah, it's like again, the empathy gets complicated, exactly. And obviously, I'm not here to love my clients, but you know, obviously I have to be able to manage that in some to some extent when I'm working with them. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

But you know, like even last week when I was talking about I think it was last week, when I was talking about the um who was it? Whenever it was, the cup the mother and daughter, and like I would get so much anxiety, but it wasn't just them, like there were just some people I felt very comfortable doing session with versus the people that like I felt so much anxiety, even not even just private practice, but like in the hospital, like you know, like when I told you I had those people that would come like constantly, they would be there. It's like of course I'm used to them, I can go talk to them. But even some of them that did come back, it's like okay, but I'm always anxious around you, like because not because I feel like I'm in danger, but it's just I know the type of conversation that we're gonna have, and it it can drain you in a different way and it can hurt and it can like you're bringing your not like you're bringing your feelings to it, but it's like you have a relationship with this person now and you want the best for them, but they might be sabotaging, they might just be in that stage of whatever.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Yeah, yeah. Um, and you know, like I mean, you know how I feel about like help rejecting, those are the hardest to love for me, yeah. Just help rejecting. Um, yeah, it's really tough, and then they're like, Well, I don't understand why, and I'm like, Well, because you keep doing the same thing over and over again, but you can't like see it yet, you know? Yeah, um, but yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of hard to love moments.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

Okay. Who is did you say who the hardest for you was to love? Did you say that was um what's his name? Oh, um man. Like that's hard to say.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Yeah, no, it can't be in life because that's so hard to say, but I also just love characters that people hate way easier than like people like some other people I was thinking about was like Draco and Sneep, and I'm like, no, but I love them from the beginning because I see that yeah, dark backstory side, right? So a lot of those people, yeah. Um I think Caden was hard. Yeah, Caden was hard to love. Yeah, um, yeah, and he's still hard to love. Yeah. Tamlin, I don't really know that I I love Tamlin. It was like it's backwards. Like I liked him in the beginning and then started hating him, yeah. But like I don't know, he might have redemption. We'll see.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Um but I don't think it'll ever take away from but I don't know. He was really just trying to protect I don't know with Tamlin. It's TBD. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:24

TBD say.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Yeah, I guess we'll have to see. Um, yeah. I'm just trying to think. Like, I never hated King Rot, so no. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

Um I mean, I don't have a reason to not hate her, but Maeve, like we don't I don't care that it's hard to like. I don't want to like her. Yeah, yeah, same.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

I wouldn't try. Like King Midas, I would not ever care to like him. Arabin Hamill. Yeah, can literally go to all seven hells.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

Yeah. I feel like we should have had a book just long, like a long book telling us like how he was being tortured.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

I know, I would love that.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

Yeah. Or a novella, like whatever. Yeah. Just I want that.

SPEAKER_00 38:10

Oh my god. Yeah, no, but yeah. So the point is, guys, there's a lot of people and characters and things in real life that are hard to love.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

Okay, but what about like people in real life that are hard to love? Not just clients, but like sometimes that's your family.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

Yeah, sometimes that's your significant other.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

You know? Sometimes it's ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Honestly, I think that was the hardest to love for me, was myself.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

Yeah. I agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

This is this is good. This is deep. Hope you guys were like thinking about your own hard-to-love scenarios there. And obviously, we don't want you to just be thinking about book characters, but like real life. This is real life therapy stuff, you know? And think about why you might be hard to love if you are. I don't know, or why it might be hard for you to love yourself. Yeah. If you don't. Um, so yeah. All right. So we are gonna do our segment of uh the pain and the plot. Which we this is the second time we're doing it. We did it in the first one, but just in case you're listening for the first time, so we're gonna pick a specific moment where we're gonna choose a different outcome and see how it affects the plot and if the pain was worth it. So that's what the pain and the plot is about here. So let's go.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

All right, who are we starting with? Okay, Nesta. Nesta Archeron. Okay, the moment. When Nesta pushes everyone away in a court of silver flames, specifically when she lashes out at Farah and refuses to help despite clearly struggling, the pain, deep shame, survivor's guilt, loss of control after trauma. If I hurt you first, you can't hurt me, and that pain that's the pain that she had. And if you remember back to Silver Flame, when that's when, like, I think we all started to like her because we saw her struggling through that. So anything that could have changed that, and we'll get to it, but it's like, is it worth that? Right, you know, also, I'm just thinking of even like you had talked about the beginning when like Pharaoh was out there doing everything on her own, and that's and that's so it was just laying on her ass, and nothing was wrong with her, so that's why we hated her, and we're like, You're letting your beginning little sister go out and do this shit.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Exactly. Now imagine she like did something different even all the way back then, you know.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Anyway, yeah, that's the beginning to so the shift she names what she's actually feeling instead of weaponizing it, accepts help earlier, less damage to her relationships, especially Farah and Cassian. So, like, she wouldn't be so like if she didn't do that, right? She I don't know, it wouldn't be the same her. I don't know. Let's see. The plot, her healing arc becomes less explosive, exactly, right? Because then we're just like, oh, she's okay, she figured it out, but no, we have to see her struggle, you know. But we lose some of that slow, painful earned growth, exactly. You know, that's the that's what made us fall in love with her.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

Like she was walking up and down those steps, you know, just trying, trying, and again, we had to wait like four books to finally get her story and start to even think about it. Exactly. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

So, like, do we want healed Nesta or do we want the journey that made her that powerful? That's what it comes down to with her. And I'm picking, like, I want I want it how I got it.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

Yeah, me too. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And I mean, I know like we're talking about this, but like obviously we wouldn't change anything in the way things played out with all of these things, yeah. But like it's nice to think about what if, you know.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

So yeah, yeah, because it's not this or that, right? Like, Nesta can she could have gone through that and still been healed, you know, which she had been, you know, like she is a more healed version of herself now, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

And the healing is a process, it takes a lot of time, so yeah, we had to wait five books and five years, but like we hung in with Nesta, so we hated her, but we hung in, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

No, I love her, yeah. So happy when she showed up and bleep and she was hanging out with bleep, yes.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

I was like, Yes, Nesta was so funny, and then bleep and bleep were also there.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

Yes, it was perfect, it was so amazing.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

I love that. Okay, all right. Um, all right, okay, for Jamie Lannister, the moment that I am picking is when Jamie pushes Bran out of the tower, which is literally episode one last like the last few minutes, and they knew what they were doing, like they captured you. That that was I was told after that happened.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

Because I thought he died. I was like, oh my god, did you really kill this kid? Because you didn't want him to see or to tell anyone what he saw? Yeah, okay, so that's a good moment. I'm glad this is a big deal. So what happens?

SPEAKER_00 43:47

Yeah, so the pain, fear of exposure, identity tied to Cersei, love entangled with loyalty and survival, and if the truth comes out, everything collapses.

SPEAKER_02 43:57

Yeah, yeah. So that's what

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Yeah, he doesn't touch brand. The truth still exists, but isn't buried in violence. And his arc starts with accountability, not redemption later. Um, in terms of how that would affect the plot, obviously, massive ripple effect, like the entire series plot. Yeah, um, there would be no King Slayer who can still be redeemed in the same way, and his moral complexity changes from the start. So, like, this one decision literally built his entire character arc. Like, we don't have the Jamie without this. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

It's just interesting to think, like, what would have happened. Yeah. And like, also, I think you and I were talking about this, and you said also on Brand's end, like, he wouldn't have become like became the yeah, because Brand was honestly just like, oh, the younger one that like time old or whatever, and everybody else like had some kind of purpose. So I love that for him.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Oh, I love it. Yeah. Alright. So once again, it went through it's worth the plot. Yeah, yeah. So the pain is worth the plot.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

You guys out there gotta make sure your pain is worth the plot because if it's not, get out.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

Yeah. Exactly. And honestly, as we're doing this, think about like I mean, obviously, you can't go back in time, but you can fix it now, right? In this moment. Think about what you could do differently right now to change a situation or an outcome, and like, would it be worth it the journey?

SPEAKER_01 45:40

Is this therapy?

SPEAKER_00 45:42

It is therapy.

SPEAKER_01 45:43

Yeah, I love it. It's our session.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

All right, now it's our favorite time of session. All right, therapists or done. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

Who would make you consider referring out?

SPEAKER_00 46:00

Nesta. I can't. I would have to. Sorry. Sorry, Nesta. Um, who would test your professionalism within the first five minutes? Jamie, probably. Both of them. Yeah, honestly, yeah. Who would make you go? We're gonna need a treatment team, Nesta. Nesta's gonna need everybody.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

Mm-hmm. Who's gonna make you overly invested? Jamie.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

You think so?

SPEAKER_01 46:32

Yeah, because he has so many things going on that I'm gonna be like, okay, but what's going on with you and Cersei? Okay, like Terry. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

Yeah. See, I don't I was thinking in Nesta's case, like I would be overly invested in a way of like, I gotta like do the work, like push myself to do the work. But interesting, we had different perspectives even though who would actually benefit from you the most? Nesta. When she's ready to do the work.

SPEAKER_02 47:02

Yeah, probably Nesta. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

Okay. Who would make you work harder than they are, Nesta?

SPEAKER_01 47:12

Who would keep showing up but not actually doing the work? I think Jamie.

SPEAKER_00 47:19

Yeah. Because Jamie would just want to talk about himself.

SPEAKER_01 47:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

And not focus on anything else. Yeah. Who would make you feel like you're chasing them emotionally?

SPEAKER_01 47:32

Maybe Jamie.

SPEAKER_00 47:34

Um, who would constantly derail the session? Jamie.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

Who would avoid every real topic but still talk the whole time? Jamie.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

Yeah. Who would have you switching interventions like, okay, let's try something else, Anasta?

SPEAKER_01 47:51

Anasta.

SPEAKER_00 47:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:53

Who would struggle with insight versus actual behavior change?

SPEAKER_02 47:58

Anasta. Jamie. Yeah. Okay. Both of them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:03

Who would make you slightly irritated but you're regulating through it? Jamie. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

Who would make you need to process after session? Nesta. Yeah, Nasta.

unknown 48:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Who would require a lot of patience, but you still see potential?

SPEAKER_01 48:19

Nesta. Yeah. Yeah. Who would be hard to sit with but need it the most? Nesta.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Yeah. Next we're gonna do our rapid fire. Empathy or excuse. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

Alright. Go first. Empathy or excuse. They had a traumatic childhood, so I try not to take their behavior personally. Umpathy.

SPEAKER_00 48:48

Excuse.

SPEAKER_01 48:49

Oh. Yeah. Okay. You think? Yeah. Like it just you can't use that. Like that can't be an excuse.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

Yeah, but I would have empathy because they had a traumatic childhood.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

Yeah, but they had a traumatic childhood, but it doesn't give them an excuse to walk around and do stuff in the name of that. That's very true, too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

Yeah. I guess it depends on if they process their trauma or not. Okay. Yeah. Um, all right. They didn't mean to hurt me. They were just triggered.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

Excuse me.

SPEAKER_01 49:25

I can see I mean it depends. It depends.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:32

That one is That's a tough one. Yeah, that one depends for me. Yeah. Okay. Because they could have been like literally triggered. Triggered. Right, right. Then have no control right in that moment. You know.

SPEAKER_00 49:47

Yeah, it depends, honestly. Because then there's like the I was quote unquote triggered. You know, people just love to use the word triggered, but they don't really even know what it even means for them. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:59

Okay. Alright. They always apologize after, so I know they care. No, that's an excuse.

SPEAKER_00 50:08

Yeah, that's an excuse because like you always why are you always apologizing? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, they're trying, it's just taking time. Empathy.

SPEAKER_01 50:21

Yeah, empathy.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

They've been through a lot, so I give them more patience than I normally would.

SPEAKER_00 50:32

I think it depends.

SPEAKER_02 50:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:35

It depends on like what part of your life I'm meeting you in. Yeah. But like I've just met you, okay, you'll get a little more empathy. Yeah. But if it's just going on and on and on, then yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, they shut down emotionally, but that's how they learn to cope.

SPEAKER_02 50:53

Umpathy. Empathy, because people I'm like that.

SPEAKER_00 50:57

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

Yeah, seriously. Yeah. They get jealous because they're scared of losing me. Excuse. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:10

Yeah. I get it, but also that's not the way to do it. Yeah. The jealousy. Okay. They raised their voice, but they were overwhelmed. No. You know? Excuse me. I'm gonna say excuse because like I do that and I think that's a poor excuse to raise my voice. So excuse. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 51:31

They struggle to communicate, but they're not used to healthy relationships. Um this has to be at the peak of them realizing that they're not good at you know, communicating or whatever, because that can't be an excuse for too long. That has to be like a one-time thing where it's like, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize this. Because after that point, like if you don't get yourself into a situation where you're learning better, yeah. Or you know, where you address that like oh, I've acknowledged this.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

Yeah, no, or like you're aware you're used to unhealthy relationships, or you're not used to healthy same thing, I guess. Then like you keep choosing there's a pattern here, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:18

Yeah, yep.

SPEAKER_00 52:20

I agree. Okay, um, they keep making the same mistake, but I know they don't want to hurt me. Excuse.

SPEAKER_02 52:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:28

Because if you know you're hurting me, like you just don't make the same mistake, period.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

Yeah. They love me the best way they know how. I mean, is that is that enough for you? Like, I don't know the situation.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

Yeah. I I was initially going with empathy because I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 52:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:55

You know, I don't know. People don't know how to love, yeah. You know, and they gotta learn that sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um, they're not toxic, they're just unhealed.

SPEAKER_01 53:14

I don't know, there's a thin line, but thin line. They push me away because they're afraid of getting hurt.

SPEAKER_00 53:26

I mean, again, it's like if you've been doing it, I mean, then I have to re-evaluate if this is what I want, type thing. So yeah. Okay, um they don't open up, but I know it's because they've never felt safe.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

That's kind of good. I have empathy for that. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They need reassurance constantly because of their past.

SPEAKER_00 53:56

Yeah. No. That's that's an excuse. For me, it's an excuse because then like deal with why you need reassurance all the time. Because it's not fair to put that on somebody. No. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. They crossed the boundary, but they didn't realize it was a big deal. I mean, but how didn't they realize? Right. Is it because like you didn't know me at all? But it was it a real boundary?

SPEAKER_01 54:29

Like, did you set that boundary? Because if you did and then they crossed it, like they knew that that was a set boundary. But is it just one of your boundaries and they didn't know? Right. So they didn't know that you cared that much.

SPEAKER_00 54:43

Well, I I I I don't know how to interpret. They didn't realize it was a big deal.

SPEAKER_02 54:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

Because you could know and then not realize, and then you could not know and realize. So yeah, of course we're like d digging deeper into this because this is what we do. Yeah. Um, yeah. So no answer for that one. Unsure. Okay. Alright, they ghosted me for a few days, but they were going through something. Uh I mean, let me know then. You need a few days to you need a few days.

SPEAKER_02 55:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:19

So for me it's an excuse because communicate.

SPEAKER_01 55:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:23

If you're going through something, it's fine, but just let me know.

SPEAKER_01 55:27

They say things they don't mean when they're upset. That's an excuse. Yeah, excuse. We all have to be uh, you know, able to just fucking manage our what we're saying, right.

SPEAKER_00 55:43

Yeah, yeah. Um, okay, they avoid conflict because confrontation makes them anxious. Yeah, but things need to be addressed. Yeah, right. That's why I'm like iffy on that, because I get it, but also like you have to uh you have to lean into the conflict and confront things sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 56:04

Yeah. They're inconsistent, but when they're good, they're really good.

SPEAKER_00 56:11

No, I can't have that. I need consistency the majority of the time.

SPEAKER_01 56:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:19

Like you're allowed to not do that once in a while, but yeah. Excuse. Okay, they don't show up emotionally, but they show up in other ways. Excuse, I can't.

SPEAKER_01 56:35

I mean Yeah, you gotta be able to show up emotionally.

SPEAKER_00 56:38

You gotta show up. Yeah, period.

SPEAKER_01 56:43

They're working on themselves, just not at the pace I'd like.

SPEAKER_00 56:48

Well, that's my problem. So that's empathy.

SPEAKER_02 56:51

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:53

I understand why they act this way, so I try to be patient.

SPEAKER_01 57:00

Well, if you're accepting it, then how can you, you know, it's only appropriate that you are patient because you've said, okay, I understand why this is happening. I'm choosing to wait. Then you wait. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I agree. I can see their pain, so I don't want to add to it.

SPEAKER_00 57:22

This one's tough. That's a tough one. Because like yes and no. I don't know. No. Like yes and no.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

Yeah. Because like just because I can see your pain doesn't, and I don't want to add to it, but it doesn't excuse you from like. Yeah. I can see your pain, but the rent is due. So what are we gonna do? You know, I still need to address this. You have to be realistic. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:48

You know, real shit. I agree. Yeah. Okay, and finally, if I leave, it might confirm their fears of abandonment. You know, sometimes you just gotta leave because you gotta leave.

SPEAKER_02 58:00

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 58:00

And that's your boundary.

SPEAKER_02 58:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:03

So that's an excuse. Excuses, excuse like it's an excuse, then I have empathy, but like I gotta go. Alright. That was fun. I like that one. Yeah, that was really good. Made a stink. Okay. Alright. Well, like usual, we gotta leave you guys with a teaser for the next episode. So here we go. You ever have a moment where everything changes in seconds? Like one conversation, one truth, one reveal. Woof. And suddenly nothing feels the same anymore. That's emotional whiplash. The kind that hits in books, and the kind that hits even harder in real life. Next session, we're talking plot twists and emotional whiplash. All right. Thanks for coming back and listening to us. And that's it for the session. See you next week.

SPEAKER_01 58:57

We want you to be a part of this world with us. Send us your book recommendations, character obsessions, or topics you want us to cover.

SPEAKER_00 59:05

You can find us on Instagram and TikTok at once upon a session pod.

SPEAKER_01 59:10

Or email us at info at onceupona sessionpod.com if you want to share thoughts, suggestions, or just scream about a plot twist with us. All right. All right. So are we charging for this session? Emotionally always.

SPEAKER_00 59:30

See you next session. See catch. Different chaos.