Session 10: Sidekicks in the Spotlight

Why do side characters so often become the ones we love most?

This week on Once Upon a Session, Vanessa and Nareesa explore the psychology behind fan-favorite supporting characters and why the people in the background sometimes leave the biggest impact.

Featuring Ruhn Danaan (Crescent City) and Manon Blackbeak (Throne of Glass), we unpack loyalty, hidden depth, resilience, identity, and the emotional complexity that makes certain characters impossible to ignore.

From the quiet protector to the underestimated powerhouse, this episode looks at why side characters often feel more relatable, more layered, and sometimes more unforgettable than the main character.

Because sometimes the best character was never the lead.

Disclaimer: We’re licensed therapists, but not your therapists. This podcast is for reflection and conversation, not a substitute for therapy.

✨ Follow Once Upon a Session for new episodes exploring stories, psychology, and healing.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Okay, why is it that people who aren't the main character are sometimes the ones holding everything together? They're always there, showing up, supporting, sacrificing, but not always being seen. And somehow their story is still happening. Just in the background. This is Once Upon a Session where two therapists turn their TBR pile into treatment plans. And every story becomes a session. I'm Vanessa. And I'm Nerisa. And we both know what it's like to be the supportive one. And not always the one getting the spotlight.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Yeah, we do. And you know I love being in the spotlight because I'm an only child. Oh goodness. It's a requirement. I know. Alright. Just a quick note before we dive in.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

We're both licensed therapists, but we're not your therapist. Everything we share here is for conversation, reflection, and maybe a little inspiration. But it's not a substitute for therapy. If you're struggling, please reach out to a mental health professional who can give you the care and support you deserve. Now that you're all checked in, have a seat on our couch. Yeah. All right, welcome back, everybody. Welcome, welcome, welcome.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

We hope that you guys are enjoying or had have enjoyed. Sorry, I can't talk. Our Forbidden Love episode.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Oh yeah, Forbidden Love. Yeah, Forbidden Love. And we're switching gears.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Actually, I think like, well, not forbidden love, but I feel like who I'm doing could be a love, possibly. An option.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Like for yourself? Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. So you have to.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

But he's not real, so like whatever.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

What do you mean he's not real? Okay, well, in real life, in like just call him out now and be like, hey, come over, so and so.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

So and so.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

I also get to his name.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Okay. Well, first, like, what's going on? What's going on? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Wait, you didn't give me an update or the people, us an update about King Fisher reading King Fisher.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

Oh, King Fisher on King Fisher. So he Oh my goodness. So last night I saw the book. Yeah. And this is like a two-part thing. Yeah. First, I saw the book, and the bookmark was like towards the end. Like he has probably.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

I don't know. Maybe like maybe like less than a hundred pages left. Okay. He's almost done. Wow. But then I opened it and the bookmark. Oh it was a pizza. Like, you know, when you go to um, we went to this museum, yeah, and it's like those clip pictures or whatever, and it's me and him. So cute. I was like, this is so cute. Because it's Kingfisher and Lil Osha. It was so adorable though to just see like that's how he's walking around with it. Like, okay. Yeah. Because like if he leaves it somewhere. Even if he's just doing that to make me feel like that's what he's doing, I appreciate the effort. I don't care if you just stuffed it in there in the car. No, I love that. But also it's so cute.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Like if you were to accidentally leave and they're like, oh, who the fuck is this? And then it's like you too, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, whatever. Oh, yeah. We're not supposed to be cutesy on here.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Oh, I love that. Okay. So that was really cute. I love it. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah, what else is going on? We're still reading through in the glass. Yeah. Yeah, but I'm excited to continue this reread. And you remember earlier when we were out, you were telling me about the version that like you can listen to the audio with the full dramatized whatever. Yeah. I I think I would like to see what some of Kingdom of Ash sounds like. Oh my god. I think that's actually the perfect book to do that with. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Oh, but no, that one clip that I like first saw then the get it off. Oh my god. Get it off. Oh, that was just so emotional.

SPEAKER_03 4:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

And it's like I will literally sit there and cry over that as opposed to like somebody's story. Cause like there's such an emotional connection to her. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Of course we're talking about Ailen again. Yeah, so I can't wait to hear again your thoughts about how you're feeling about Assassin's Blade, wherever it is. Yeah. Yeah. Alright.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

I don't have any work-related news, so.

SPEAKER_03 4:37

Neither do I.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

This is our work. Oh, yeah, we said this last week. This is our work.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Here we are. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

Alright. So today we're putting sidekicks in the spotlight. Yes, but not in a surface level way. We're talking about the characters who aren't the main focus. But are emotionally carrying so much of the story. The ones who support show up and hold things together. Even when no one's really looking at them. Yeah. Oh my god, what does it feel like to be a sidekick? I know. And not in the spotlight. I don't know. I hate it. Yeah. I wouldn't. I don't know. It it is kind of sad when you think about it. Yeah. Like just just because sometimes they're not able to like it really express themselves because they're always busy helping the main character with something. Yeah. Like their wants and their needs are kind of put to the this is live happening right now.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

I just had a thought in a situation where I felt like a sidekick in the spot. Not in the spotlight. Just a sidekick. Remember that boss that we had where I was like really the oh yeah person and like they really weren't, and I was in the spotlight, and I deserve credit.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Yeah, exactly. But you eventually did get your credit. I sure did.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

And then I got to be, I got to be the spotlight in the spotlight. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:10

So that light has been dimmed.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Yeah, because I'm on a different level now.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Yes. And good for it. Because if you were there, you I don't think you would be even doing this podcast. No, I wouldn't have time. Yeah. I honestly wouldn't have time. I mean, maybe I'd have time, but like I wouldn't be having real life clinical experiences in this way. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So psychologically, what does it mean to be in that role? It often shows up as being the support person. The one people go to, rely on, lean on. But who always doesn't get that same support back. And a lot of times that role gets tied to identity. Yeah, like I'm the strong one, I'm the dependable one. And it becomes hard to step out of that. Even when it starts to feel heavy. Because if you stop showing up that way. Who are you in that relationship? Yeah. It can be like such a codependent thing, too.

SPEAKER_03 7:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

And in real life, this can look like being the friend who always listens. The one who holds space for everyone else. But doesn't always get that space in return. And over time that can lead to burnout, resentment, or feeling unseen. Even though you're essential. Just not centered.

SPEAKER_03 7:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Yeah. That all rings a bell over here. Okay, let's talk about how this shows up in fiction. Because sidekicks are everywhere. But they're rarely the focus. Even when they're doing the emotional heavy lifting. They're the ones supporting the main character. Helping them grow, survive, or succeed. But their own story is often secondary. Yeah, we have so many characters to talk about with this. So, like, yeah, I mean we'll get to it, but and that's what makes them so interesting. Because if you look closer, they're carrying just as much, if not more. And sometimes they're the most emotionally complex person in the story. Yeah. Oh man. Well, and I think too like to think about is that sometimes they're not necessarily the side kick, but they're like a side character. You know, so that's like kind of how we're looking at it. That's a good point, right? Because my person on my couch isn't a sidekick to anyone. You know, she stands on her own. Yeah. But she's like, she's not, she's kind of a side character. Whereas like she could have easily been the main character of the entire series. Like we could have gotten a series that's just straight up her. Yeah, and a lot of the chapters were her own. Her POV kind of, yeah. Right. So I feel like she did get a book of her own. She did. But yes, you're right. Absolutely. She deserved that though. Yeah. Um, I feel like my character is a sidekick, but also the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 9:12

Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

I would love. I mean, we sort of got a little his own story, but I want more.

SPEAKER_02 9:18

To have his story like starting out with him being like the main character, yeah. All of this from his POV or you know, like I would love that. I would love that too. All right. Sarah, you're listening.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

We go on, we're on a first name basis now, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

All right. Alright, so let's get into it. Okay, who's sitting on your couch today? Today I'm working with Manon. Yeah. Not Manon, Blackbeat. Right. I don't care how much. Sarah J said that's her. I think it's supposed to be Manon. Oh, yes. She did say Manon. But I just like Manon. I like Manon too. Yeah. Yeah. Ooh, can't wait for that one though. And I got Mr. Rune Danon. Yeah. Well, I'll get to his. Manon and Danon. Oh my god. Yes. You know I love seeing his whole title, but I'll get to it when we get to it.

SPEAKER_03 10:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

These are not main characters. But they definitely should be.

SPEAKER_03 10:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

Alright. Alright, so starting with Manon.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Manon.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

Alright. So Manon Blackbeak, heir to the Blackbeak clan, wingleader of the Iron Teeth Witches. Yeah. And the one who would eventually become their queen. Oh my god. I thought about introducing her, like, oh, it's Manon. No. No, like I need y'all to know. Some respect on her name. Yes. Oh, but that was beautiful. Well, it's because Runden and the Crown Prince, like, he has the whole thing. And I was like, we're not gonna let her be the background character in the sidekick story. I appreciate that. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Alright, so Manon is from the Throne of Glass series by Sarah J. Mass. And when we first meet her, she is not written to be liked. She's written to be feared. She's the heir to the Blackbeat Witch clan, a leader, a warrior, someone raised in a world where power is everything. And anything that looks like softness is seen as a liability. From the beginning, she's taught that emotion is weakness, that connection gets you killed, that survival depends on control, obedience, and never letting your guard down. So she doesn't just push feelings away. She was never given the space to have them in the first place. And because of that, when we meet her, she's sharp, calculated, unapologetically ruthless. She doesn't hesitate, she doesn't question, she doesn't get close, not because she doesn't feel, but because she was never taught that she's allowed to. And that's what makes her so interesting in this conversation. Because she exists in the story as a side character, but emotionally, she's carrying something much bigger. Because as her story unfolds, we start to see something shift. Small moments at first where loyalty starts to feel different, where connection starts to matter, where the lines between duty and choice start to blur. And it's subtle, but it's powerful. Because now she's not just following orders, she's thinking, she's feeling, she's questioning, and once that starts, there's no going back. So her story just isn't just about being a warrior or a leader or even a side character in someone else's narrative, it's about what happens when someone who was never allowed to be human starts becoming one anyway.

SPEAKER_05 12:38

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

And that's where things get complicated. So before I talk about like her presenting problems and stuff, just thinking about like how she was introduced to us versus how we see her story play out. Yeah. Like that girl or that witch that we met in the closet or in that cottage or whatever she was in, yeah, that was never the You mean yellow legs? Oh no, no, no, yes. No, man, and when we first meet her. Yes. And she was like in that house, and the people were like coming to kill her or something. I'm gonna be there soon. Oh, yeah. Okay, so you're about to meet her because this is a refresher for me. But it's like that's how we first met her, and then to to the end where we see like she is a queen in her own right. You know, it's just so it's so different. Her journey was truly amazing. That's what I'm saying. She really was a main character in the side piece. And like, I'm not gonna lie, when she first got introduced, I was like, wait, who the hell is this other person they're throwing in here? I didn't care about her. I I literally felt like I could skip those chapters. I never did, but I felt like I could.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Yes, I was like, you know what? I don't really care about this. Like, let me just skip, but her, oh my god, and how everything with her plays out in the bigger picture. It's amazing. And then like the person she like falls in love with, it's just like Yes.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

Uh yeah, we love it. Okay. All right, so presenting problems, significant emotional suppression, and difficulty identifying internal emotional states, rigid identity tied to role, power, and performance as a leader, relational avoidance and discomfort with vulnerability or emotional closeness, internal conflict emerging as she begins to question long-held beliefs and conditioning. Some core themes, um, tension between control and emotional vulnerability. For her, control isn't just a preference, it's a coping strategy. It's how she avoids emotional exposure because vulnerability was never something she was taught was safe. There's also this conflict between her conditioned identity and her authentic self. She's constantly navigating the differences between who she was raised to be and who she's starting to become. And I'm so happy that like she was finding who she was becoming because that relationship, she never would have even entertained it. No. And when we get to the pain in the plot, let's do a get back. Yeah. Because I think that pain, that plot, yeah, that's what shifted her. Yes. Because she was never gonna go for a princeling or whatever. Oh, anyway. Witchling. Witchling and princeling. Oh my god, I love them. All right, another big theme is loyalty, responsibility, and survival. She's been taught to prioritize duty and obedience above everything else, even over her own needs or emotional truth. Alright, so a big focus would be increasing her emotional awareness, helping her start to identify what she's feeling, and build a language around that. Because that's not something she ever really had. We'd also be working on developing a sense of identity outside of her assigned role. So not just who she is as a warrior, but who she is as a person. Another piece would be exploring those emergent relational needs and helping her build a tolerance for vulnerability because even recognizing that she needs connection is new for her. And then overall, we'd be working on reducing her resilience on control as her primary coping mechanism, helping her see that she has other ways to navigate her internal experiences. Okay, some interventions. I'd be using a lot of trauma-informed and attachment-based work with her to establish safety and trust first, because without that, none of the deeper work is gonna land. We'd also introduce emotional literacy work just to help her start identifying and expressing what she's feeling in a way that feels manageable. I'd want to spend time exploring the impact of her early conditioning, how that shaped her beliefs, her behaviors, and the way she sees herself. And over time, we'd support her in gradually engaging in safe, reciprocal relationships so she can experience connection in a way that doesn't feel threatening or destabilizing. And expected outcomes, increased ability to recognize and tolerate emotional experiences without suppression, greater differentiation between conditioned identity and authentic self, improved capacity for connection without reliance on control or avoidance, more flexible responses to internal conflict and relational stressors. And we'll get more into how that actually plays out when we bring her into the treatment team meeting. Okay, guys, so today I'm gonna be doing Mr. Rune Dann, Crown Prince of the Valbaron Fey.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

And we love saying that to me. We sure do. We love that. And of course, we love him. You know, I remember when I first saw fan art of him, I was like, whoa, he's hot. And like he's very hot.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

But then, like, when I read about him, like my the way I looked at him changed a little bit, you know, and not in a bad way. Yeah, um, yeah, he's not just a piece of meat. He looked like he was hot, but like he's just so not my type that when you were like, oh, Dib's on Rune, I'm like, yeah, good. Yeah, because I wasn't really.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yeah. Anyway. Rune Dannon, um, from Crescent City Guys by Sarah J. Maas. And yeah, we're this is the Sarah J.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

Maas podcast show. Yeah, of her books.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

Yeah. But it's fine because the past two episodes we didn't do fantasy, so we're always gonna come back here and get over it.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

Yeah. Okay, so Rune Dannon, the crown prince of the Valbaron Faye, is raised under the rigid expectations of his powerful and emotionally distant father. Ugh, what an asshole.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Okay, you guys all should know Bryce Quinlan by now.

SPEAKER_02 18:57

Yes. She was just here last week or so.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Yes. As Bryce Quinlan's brother, he exists close to the center of the story.

SPEAKER_03 19:05

Wait, we did her, her mate, not her brother.

SPEAKER_02 19:09

Yep, sorry about it. Sorry. He exists close to the center of the story, but never fully in it. While Bryce drives the narrative, Rune navigates a parallel internal struggle shaped by legacy, pressure, and identity. He's expected to embody strength, control, and obedience, yet internally wrestles with who he actually is versus who he was raised to be. Throughout the series, Rune forms meaningful relationships, shows loyalty, and repeatedly challenges the expectations placed on him. He's such a rebel.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

But much of his emotional experience happens in the background. His story is not about becoming the hero, it's about figuring out who he is when he's no longer playing just a role. And I feel like he's the perfect sidekick in the spotlight. I just like he just has so much that's like main character energy, but like also a lot of sacrifice.

SPEAKER_02 20:04

Um, okay, problem behaviors, difficulty separating identity from inherited role. I think that's a huge one.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Emotional suppression in high-pressure environments, internal conflict between duty and personal values, seeking approval from authority figures, over-identification with responsibility, and struggle with self-definition outside of expectation. Core themes, identity versus expectation, living in someone else's shadow, like Bryce, family pressure and legacy, a lot of that, emotional suppression, loyalty versus autonomy, and self-discovery outside of assigned roles.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

Um, so core belief is like if if I become who they expect me to be, then I'll be enough. Um, treatment goals intervention, separate identity from external expectations, increase emotional awareness and expression, the process impact of parental pressure, strengthen internal sense of self.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Um and autonomy building.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Progress for him would look like defining identity outside of expectations, expresses emotions without suppression, makes choices aligned with personal values, reduces reliance on validation, builds authentic relationships, and accepts that worth is not tied to performance.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

In terms of his outcome, Rune's growth is not about stepping into power, it's about stepping out of the version of himself he was expected to be.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

And that's crazy because he really chose to not have that inherited thing, right? Because he really didn't want it.

SPEAKER_05 21:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

And yeah, the shift happens when he begins to question not just what he should do, but who he actually is. Sometimes the spotlight isn't about becoming the main character, it's about finally seeing yourself. Clearly outside of the role you were given. And I think that describes him beautifully.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

I think so too. And I think like when you said like he didn't even want it, it like just that detail in itself made for such a positive book. Like the last book we read, because like when they defeated their dad, whatever, um, and they were down there in the cave or whatever it was. Yeah, it was like that could have been a moment where we had drama, like you know, but we didn't have that. It's like everyone knew their role, everybody was just kind of doing right. And I don't know, something about him just accepting that when he could have been like, no, like Bryce, like whatever, you just got here. I've been here, like you know what I mean. Especially all the tr the trauma he went through at the hands of his father.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

He could have been like, no, I want this because I deserve it. Yeah, exactly. Oh, it's so good, and it's similar to Man and Two, Manon. Yeah, yeah. Um that's her first and middle name, Man and Manon.

SPEAKER_03 23:04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

All right, all right, treatment team meeting, we might as well talk about them now, right? Yes, let's do it. Clipboards out because we need to talk about what they're carrying and what's not being acknowledged. Alright, so all right, if they walked into our office. If Manon actually walked into my office as a client, I think my immediate reaction would be, okay, she's very controlled, very composed, almost too composed, like nothing is getting past the surface. But at the same time, there's and there's an intensity there. You can feel everything is being held in very tightly. I wouldn't expect her to open up easily at all. She'd probably present as very direct, very guarded, maybe even a little detached. And honestly, I think there would be a moment where I'd be like, Okay, are you gonna let me in at all, or are we just gonna sit here in silence? I can a hundred percent see that with her. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

Oh my god, she would be so badass too, like with her red cape and her nails and just like yeah. Oh, I would love to do that. That would be so dope. Um, for Rune, first first of all, if Rune walks into my office, I'm calling you like, yo. Yeah. But no, not really, because I can't talk about him. But yeah, I would be like, oh, shoot, okay, then I need to like collect my thoughts and be like, okay, let me just manage my counter transference. Um, but I similarly to Man and Manan, controlled, composed, loyal, underneath identity conflict, like defenses, you know, approval seeking, trauma, just being compliant.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

I don't I feel like he would engage, but he might not talk about like the un the stu stuff underneath the surface right away. Um, it might just be like, you know, if I ask him about him and what brings him here, like he'll just be talking about himself for a while and not get to it. Yeah. So yeah, I think he might be guarded similarly um and just really not ready to do that work yet, which is fine because we're gonna build rapport and take care of it.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Exactly, whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:25

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

Yeah. So what they'd say versus reality.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

Um if she were to tell me what the problem is, I don't even know that she would frame it emotionally. It might come out as something like, I need to be more effective as a leader or I need to make the right decisions. Very performance-based, very role-based. But what I would understand the problem to be is that she doesn't have a sense of self outside of what she was trained to be. There's a disconnect between her identity and her internal experience. And now that she's starting to feel things, loyalty, connection, protectiveness, she doesn't have the tools to understand or regulate any of it. And she needs that like to be with Princeling. Yeah. Right? Like she's gonna have to adjust. She's not used to that. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

That's rough.

SPEAKER_02 26:23

Man.

SPEAKER_05 26:24

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

Oh my god. Oh, but I love the relationship she had with our boy Abraxos. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was beautiful. That was beautiful. We'll get to it. Yeah, we'll get oh we are we're gonna get to it.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Yes, okay.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

So for Rune, I feel like he would say, This is who I am. I don't have a choice. Um, like this is what I have to do, this is the expectations for my father, my family.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

You know, I just have to and he's so loyal too, right? So it's like he's just pushing through and doing the things, but he's not really feeling what he needs to feel. Um, so the reality of what I would say the issue is is identity shaped by expectations, fear of disappointing others, and suppressed needs.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:11

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

What would you work on first?

SPEAKER_02 27:16

Okay, so what I would actually work on first would not be diving straight into trauma. It would be building safety, helping her recognize that she doesn't have to earn connection through performance. There would be a strong focus on attachment work, creating a space where she can experience consistency without having to be in control the entire time. We'd also start working on emotional awareness, very basic at first, like identifying feelings, naming them, tolerating them. Because for her, even sitting with emotion is unfamiliar. And a big piece of the work would be around control, helping her understand that control kept her safe at one point, but it's also what's keeping her disconnected now. And we need her connected with you know who because we do. Like I'm really hoping for a not a not a spin-off. What's it called?

SPEAKER_03 28:10

Yeah, like a spin-off.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

We should get so many spin-offs from all of these. I think even I think Sarah could do something so cool like every year, because she likes to say Christmas, right? Like Christmas presents or whatever. If every year she gave us a novella, like for the next 12 years, you know what I mean? Like she could put out a book once a year. Sarah, if you're listening to me, this is what the people want. Just every year, one book, small, make it fun. Don't even think about it. Like, give us the rough draft. Yeah. Seriously. We'll take anything.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Yeah. And you know your fans will take anything. Yeah. Like misspellings, grandma, incorrect grammar, all of it will take it. I love that. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:56

What about you?

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Okay, so identity exploration for sure, emotional awareness, and then like challenging beliefs, autonomy building.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

But like I feel like we gotta do some trauma work in there at some point too.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Yeah. So, but mostly like trying to give him some sense of identity and self without like these roles. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:21

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

Counter-transference. I don't even gotta tell you.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

Okay. If I'm thinking about counter transference, I think she would bring up a mix of respect and frustration. Like I would really admire her strength, her discipline, her ability to lead, but at the same time, there would be moments where I'd want to just push her. Like, you don't have to do this alone. And I'd have to be really mindful not to overhelp her or try to break through her defenses too quickly. Because that would just reinforce her need to stay guarded. And then how do we move past that? Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_05 30:04

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

Um those I think are very accurate and some like I feel like mostly for Rune, obviously, besides the fact that he's just so hot, um, I would have to deal with that separately and manage that.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

But I feel like I would just constantly want him to like have a desire to choose himself.

SPEAKER_03 30:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:26

Because I'd be like, you're doing so much, like stop. Just pick yourself. Like fuck what all these people think. Like you need to just like you deserve, you deserve credit. You deserve to be the main character.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Like, pick it.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

He really does deserve that. And like with him and Dave, right? It was just like I think when he realized that he loved her, and like they they were done. You know, they were done, and then they still helped each other, and then the run to the elevator, and like getting away. Oh my god. And then when he thought she bleeped, yeah, you know, uh we need a spin-off of that. Yeah, just the them two story, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

Yeah, also I just need everybody to come. Oh my god, I saw this theory that, like, you know, everybody got a theory on somewhere. But that like Sarah J's gonna like she's setting up this stuff for it to end up being like an Avenger level, like everybody's gonna come together to fight the all the evils. Maybe there's like a bigger evil above all of them controlling them.

SPEAKER_05 31:34

Ooh, I like that theory.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

I would love an Avenger style. Oh my god, can't you imagine? Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

Sorry. All right. Um, let's talk about some of the interventions we'd use. Yep. Okay. So, in terms of interventions, I'd definitely be pulling from the attachment-based work, trauma-informed care, and some DBT skills for emotional regulation.

SPEAKER_05 32:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 32:01

Early sessions would probably look like a lot of grounding, a lot of pacing, and a lot of building trust. Not forcing insight, but allowing it to develop. And with with Manon, I feel like as long as she and I could build that rapport, and like that's the work, right? Like building, building that up. But once we've built that, I feel like I could really do some good work with her because she has so much stuff like between her grandmother and the 13, and then her relationship. Yeah, and the 13. Yeah, yeah. So it's just a lot that I can imagine her coming, you know, coming in every week, and then we just plop down, and I'm like, okay, what are we gonna talk about this week? Like, yeah, because she can dip into everything so much, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Right. And then like that huge traumatic experience towards the end that she had.

SPEAKER_05 32:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 32:59

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

And like imagine doing work with her, and then that happens, and now you're like, Goodness. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

If that happened, I think I think as a therapist, what I would do is I would go out of my way. Yeah. I would go out of my way to make sure like she she didn't have to guess whether or not she was safe in that moment because I would have to make sure she was okay. Like, and if that just meant sitting there, if that meant breaking shit, if that meant like just going to the site, right, and whatever, I'm I'm down for anything you need to do.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

She needs that she needs that. She needed that. Yeah, she would have needed that for sure. Yeah. Well, I love that. Yeah. Um, so I feel for rune, um, like CBT and DBT, so like cognitive restructuring, you know, that kind of stuff for him, and then DBT, like just emotional processing, emotion regulation, like just all of that. And then again, like trauma work, but at the end, but that's kind of where what I would do with him, honestly. Um yeah, and again, it's like building the rapport and having him feel comfortable, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

You know, and like again, if I'm doing it throughout all these things happening, he has traumatic events that happened in the middle of his whole life too, you know, and when we were reading.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

And he has stuff that it's just like thinking about him and his sister and like how they kind of play into he has the star sword or you know, like whatever it is, and and then to find out like but she has like more power and she's like half a and yeah, you know, it's oh is it's a lot for him. Ailen also was half a so they were both half a um Bryce and Ailen, and I think my theory is that um Rune and Reese. No, Rune and Reese, that's the one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But still, I still have some faith in that, but my theory is that the Archeron mom is a crock and witch. Oh yeah, or one of the witches, you know, because she their cottage is like they only had stone like iron stuff. Yes, yeah. Nestle with the iron claws, Tamlin asking her, like, oh, your mom didn't tell you about this, as if he knew something already. Oh interesting.

SPEAKER_00 35:25

I don't know, whatever, but well, Sarah J, if you're listening, let us know. No, just kidding. She's not listening. But like if she is listening. Yeah. If you are listening, come on the show. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

Okay. Hard truth. Okay. The hard truth I'd probably have to say is you were taught that feeling makes you weak, but it's actually the only thing that's allowing you to become who you really are. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 35:54

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

Cause like when she started to feel, look at who she became. Yeah, exactly. Again, Princeton.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

And it's almost like those things had to happen.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

For her to even be able to feel as if she were good enough to lead and be who she's now gonna be to these to the whole clan, like everyone. She's yeah. This story can't be over. No, not at all. None of these stories can be over. No, yeah. Alright, so for Rune, I would it would be very simple. Being who they want you to be is costing you who you are.

SPEAKER_03 36:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

Simple as that.

SPEAKER_03 36:35

Just like that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:37

Just like that.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

Alright, now let's bring it back to real life and all of us.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

Yeah. Because a lot of us have learned to be the strong one, the dependable one. The one who holds everything together. But at some point, that role stops protecting you and starts disconnecting you from yourself. And that's really where her work begins. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Um, and my kind of idea of bringing it back to life is you know, we mistake expectation for identity all the time.

SPEAKER_05 37:15

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

And we get so like wrapped up in that, right? That we lose a sense of ourself. Yeah. And it's like, no, this isn't who you are. This is an expectation.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

And like you have the ability to be who you are. But it's hard to separate the two, you know. So yeah. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:37

So if any of you can relate, if you've ever been the sidekick, and don't wait around, you know, and don't be that type of friend or that type of person that had been in the shadows, and then you find someone that you feel like is weaker than you, or something like that, and then you go, so now you're in the spotlight and you need your own hype man or sidekick. Like just stand in the spotlight on your own. And then whoever in your story is, you know, in your background or whatever. They'll find their own way, but don't put someone in your shadow just because you want to feel like you're, you know, you're in the spotlight. Yeah, I love that. Very well said. Thank you. Very well said. Good point.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

Hope y'all are listening. That was a real life, live, hard truth, guys.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

For all of you.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

Alright. We painting and plotting. We painting and plotting. Let's go. Okay. All right.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

So for Rune, the moment, oh my god. When Rune is captured and interrogated. Well, he's not captured by himself. But it's Rune Hunt and Isaiah.

SPEAKER_03 38:47

Baxian.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

Oh, Baxian. Sorry. Where do I keep getting Isaiah from? You missed Gods and Monsters. I don't. But there's an Isaiah in here too, right? Baxian. Oh my god. Remember Danica's? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

Yes. We're just gonna keep bleeping. Yeah. Every time we ruin something. Okay, so it was Rune Hunt and Baxian. Baxian. Baxiang. Okay, so it was Rune Hunt and Baxian. Christina Yang. Christina Yang.

SPEAKER_02 39:18

Got captured and interrogated, enduring it without giving anything up, choosing silence, even while being physically and emotionally pushed to his limits. Oh my god, that was so intense.

SPEAKER_03 39:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:31

When they made them do like they were, it was disgusting. It was so disgusting. Like reading about what they were going through and how Hunt was so broken for Bryce and Yeah. I don't remember who, but like I also don't want to give it away. Yeah. Somebody cutting their hand off. It was Room. Yeah. Oh, it was. I'm sorry. Maybe it wasn't. Just sad. We're not giving it away.

SPEAKER_05 39:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

But yeah, that was rough. And again, going back to his well, whatever now. Going back to his role in all of this. Exactly what we're talking about, you know?

SPEAKER_02 40:09

Um, okay. So the pain, loyalty over self-preservation, literally. I'll take it if it protects them. Carrying responsibility, no one fully sees, being the strong one, even when it's breaking you. Yeah. The shift, rune breaks and gives something up to stop the pain.

SPEAKER_03 40:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

Do you ever see him like doing that? No. But if he did give something up and give in, you know, just say, alright, no more torture for people. Like, that's just whatever. The information changes everything. The people he was protecting are now at risk. His role shifts from protector to someone who couldn't hold the line, and the emotional weight becomes guilt instead of sacrifice. And I wouldn't want any of this for him, because yeah, no.

SPEAKER_02 40:55

When you said hold a line, all I heard was hold the door. Hold the door.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

We were just talking about this. You said, Oh my god, yes, you're gonna see all the moments in the book.

SPEAKER_02 41:07

So when I was saying my personal hell would be this if I go to hell, all I would be seeing is like lavender soap, yeah, and hold the door, and all the other things that we'll not be afraid and take it off, and take it off, pull the gate, pull the door, open the gate, pull the door, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

Oh, yeah, that's true. I would be totally fine with that than whatever other things hell has to offer. This is true, yes. Okay, um, yeah, and the emotional weight becomes guilt instead of sacrifice. Okay, yes. I do not think that the pain would be worth the plots, um, but he really said I got this, and then had to just sit there and actually have it. Yeah. Like, yeah, you chose it, buddy. But I wouldn't expect anything different from him, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

Yeah, Rune actually really surprised me as a character. I didn't expect to like him that much. Like, I was like, Oh, he's cool, he's a good supporting character, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

But supportive.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

I think when he started having those that relationship, that's when I started to actually care because I'm like, he's not a rake, right? He really just needs love. Like it was nice to see a different side, and then to know that like he didn't actually know what she looked like. So he you know, when you really fall for someone like their soul, yeah, like so. If you can love on that level, that tells me so much more about you. I love that, and I love that for him and them too.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

So yeah, yeah, agreed.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

Yeah, all right, what you got for Manon. Manon's plot. All right, when the moment for me, which this was a little difficult because I thought about two moments, but I ultimately went with this one. Okay, when Manon claims Abraxos as her wyvern or Wyvern, depending on how you all hear it. But um, choosing him instead of killing him, even though he's considered weak and unworthy. And you know, Abraxos, oh my god, like I just love that whole story of him, he was a bait beast for those of you who don't know, and how dare you not know? And then why are you here? Yeah, and then um, but yeah, Abraxos, just to think of her picking a bait beast, I feel like that was such a boss move. Like that was such a leader move because I don't know. I I just I loved I there's like no words. If you've read it, you only know but then you know how significant this is because her grandmother, the matron, she like you wouldn't want to pick a bait beast, right? Right? Like you would want to pick the biggest, the toughest, the strongest, you know, that there is out there, but she really took a she took a um chance with him. Something really spoke to me in the fact that she took the broken, you know, and she was like, No, I'm gonna have faith in this. And oh my god, Abraxos was so cute. Abractos and his flowers. I just love flowers in the meadow. Yeah, he was uh but he was also fierce, yeah, you know, and I feel like his softness also affected her in a way that we'll get to it. Oh, go ahead, sorry. So the pain, I know it's like you read this or something. No, I didn't. Okay, so the pain. Raised to believe weakness should be eliminated, not protected, conditioned to value power, dominance, and control above all else, taught that survival means cutting off anything that doesn't meet expectations, never given space for compassion, curiosity, or connection, forced into a role where emotion is not just discouraged, but punished. And like punished, you remember her grandmother used to like box her down, like she used to beat her. Like she would actually beat her, and that's horrible. Yeah. So the shift. Manon chooses differently, quietly but intentionally. She sees something in Abraxos and doesn't destroy it. For the first time, her decision isn't about power, it's about instinct. The plot. She starts to move from dominance to connection. Her identity begins to separate from her conditioning. And through Abraxos, she experiences loyalty and trust in a way she has never before. And if she didn't choose Abraxos, she likely would have reinforced everything she was taught that weakness should be eliminated. There would be no relationship forcing her to experience connection, patience, or trust. And without that, her shift might never have happened in the same way. She could have stayed exactly what she was trained to be. And if you think about it, like if she didn't pick Abraxos, Abraxos wouldn't have cared, or well, it wouldn't have mattered because when she saves Petra's life, the other clan, whatever, during those war games, she only did it because Abraxos was trying to, you know, help. So it's like, and that shifted everything because then later on, when they needed something, they're like, You spared my daughter's life, whatever. Like, so so many things. But so, like, imagine it, imagine if she just picked the strongest um beast and kept it moving. We literally would not have had the same man in that spider silk connection because she wouldn't have had to like fix a Braxel's wing. Right. Like, we wouldn't have did that get back to like the spider silk. Yeah, yeah. Uh yeah. I wouldn't have wanted it anyway, other way. Sorry. No, I'm so happy that's how it played out. The pain was worth the blot. The pain was worth the blot. Yes. Yeah. But I think I'm we did we mention this earlier already, or maybe it was just when you and I were speaking earlier today about the croken witch that she had to kill. I mean, that she had to bleep. Because her matron, her grandmother, like during the war games and she ended up saving Petra's life. Um, even though the the Wyvern died. Oh, yeah. Um, but she saved Petra's life. Right. So then the grandmother made her kill the croken witch, like to kind of prove a point. And again, we didn't know who that croc and witch really was. So, like, imagine if she had picked a bigger beast, is what I'm saying. Like, she would have never saved Petra, and she would have never had to kill that croc and witch. Yeah. And like, yeah, things wouldn't have played out. Yeah. Yeah. Oh god, this book is so good. Both of them. I mean, both of them, honestly. Both of them. I love that you picked her. I think this was so great because, like you said, this isn't like somebody who was like somebody sidekick, but like she was a huge part of the story, and she did deserve her own focus.

SPEAKER_00 48:13

Absolutely. Honestly.

SPEAKER_02 48:14

Yeah. Because I was about to do Chal, remember? K.O. Which I still think he's a good one, but maybe for next season.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 48:23

There's so many sidekicks on this. I'm gonna make a sub list to the list we have, and then be like, okay, for season two for this topic, I'll do this person instead. So many people to talk about. Yeah, and you guys, it's okay to like write us and say, hey, you should do this, or maybe you should do this. Yeah. Don't try to come give us like ideas for changing our podcast. That's not what I mean. No, right. I mean you should do this topic. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Yeah. And we appreciate it. And our email is coming at the end, so like wait for it. Yeah, but also you should know it. Yeah. If I gotta know it, y'all gotta know it. Yes. Alright, it's time for chaos. Oh, we started the chaos early. Oh, yeah, we did start the chaos. You're right. You're right. Okay, so our mini games segments. Okay. Alright, so let's do a sidekick burnout scale. Oh yes. So we're gonna rate how emotionally drained a sidekick would be in real life. Okay. One, I'm fine. Two, I need a break. And three, I quit. Oh my god. Yes, love this. Okay. Alright. So I'm gonna throw out some ideas and you tell me how burnt out a sidekick would be in real life. Okay. Alright, so being the therapist friend 24-7.

SPEAKER_01 49:43

I quit.

SPEAKER_02 49:44

Yeah. It's it's so annoying.

SPEAKER_01 49:47

Like sorry, figure it out. I can't.

SPEAKER_02 49:50

Yeah. And then even when you don't want to, you can't help but like analyze the situation a little bit. Yeah. Okay. It's too much. Yeah. Listening to the same relationship drama over and over. I quit. No, that's not true. That's not true. Yeah. If like I mean, when it's you, I don't care.

SPEAKER_00 50:16

Cause like I'll that's what I signed up for. If it's some if it's like a client or something, I mean I'm not gonna like quit, but like yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:27

I can see that too. Right. I need a break. Yeah. Yeah. Supporting someone who never takes your advice. I quit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:36

I just can't. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 50:38

Yeah. At at some point it's gonna have to be like a tough love thing. Like, okay, you know what? Do whatever you want to do. And that's why, like, I used to have such a problem with when you said you gotta do what's best for you, is because I felt like you were always at that I quit moment. Yeah. And it's like, but I'm just coming to you for the first time. Like, I I need advice or I want advice, and you're like, do whatever you want, but I don't get there until like you fucked up so many times. I'm like, do whatever the fuck you want. Yeah, yeah. So that's why I feel like it feels so dismissive. I got you, but like, yeah, I didn't mean it in the I quit way, but I get that, I understand now. Good. Well, we just had a breakthrough live, guys. You heard it? A live breakthrough. Right. See, and that's how you communicate with your people. Yes. Watching the main character make a bad decision and saying nothing, how quick would the burnout come? Um I mean, I would be maybe I would say I'm fine, just like for that first time. Yeah. Because sometimes you need to make a bad decision to learn. So yeah, if it's the first time thing, I'm fine. Okay, I agree with that. Okay. Being loyal to someone who doesn't notice what you do.

SPEAKER_01 51:54

No, I quit.

SPEAKER_02 51:55

No, I quit too. Yeah. Like, we gotta grow up.

SPEAKER_01 52:00

Yeah, we do.

SPEAKER_02 52:01

It's like you do it, and once you realize that they don't realize that you gotta get out of there. Because you can get so caught up and you just get stuck in a cycle forever.

SPEAKER_01 52:14

And that burnout is real.

SPEAKER_02 52:15

Yeah, and then it becomes a betrayal to yourself, not to them. Okay. Always being the strong one in your group. I might need a break. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

Yeah. Yeah. I would need a break. I don't mind, but I need a break.

SPEAKER_02 52:38

Keeping everyone else emotionally stable while you're falling apart. Oh gosh. I feel like that is the life of a therapist.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

Yeah, I was just gonna say this is that's what I do for work.

SPEAKER_02 52:48

Yeah, and that's what I do to survive. Right. When I'm not so I would need a break. I wouldn't quit, but I would need a break. Yeah, I tell myself I'm fine, but I really just need a break, but then I feel guilty for taking a break. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:04

But like recently I had to take a break because I couldn't hold space for other people.

SPEAKER_02 53:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:10

So good for me.

SPEAKER_02 53:12

Yeah, no, seriously, good for you. Because that takes a lot to hold space, and then again, it becomes a betrayal to yourself when you're holding that space for other people and neglecting yourself at the same time. Yeah. You did the right thing by taking space. I just had to thank you. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Alright. Being the one people go to but never check on. I'm not I'm not tolerating that. Yeah, I'm a quid. I'm a quid. I'm a creator. I'm a quitter. For that, yeah, that's a good reason to quiz. Like, no. Because again, you're betraying yourself. Yeah, we're not doing that. You see what's happening, you're staying. No. Boundaries. Yeah. Holding secrets that aren't even yours to carry. Well, like, for work, I kind of have to do that sometimes. Yeah, no, this. I'm fine with that. So, like, would you say that as therapists, we're technically always the sidekick in our patients' or clients' stories. Yeah, we are because when they're on our couch, they're the main characters. I agree. We're we're sidekicks. We're sidekicks. But I don't mind not being in the spotlight for that. Because, like. No, yeah, I agree. But we are sidekicks. Yeah. Oh my god. I didn't think about that. Wow. All right. Call an old therapist. You guys are sidekicks. Welcome to the sidekicks. Your clients are in the spotlight. Yeah. But we love it. We don't mind at all. No. Come be in the spotlight. Wow. In two years. Yeah, because some of you need to be in the Dr. Carter private practice. You can be the movie star in this therapy. Something. Dr. Carter. Listen, I'm gonna have a commercial out. Um or what do they call them now? Ads. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:03

And it's gonna, you're gonna hear her in the background. Dr. Carter. Private practice.

SPEAKER_02 55:08

Being second choice, but still showing up like your first. I would quit.

SPEAKER_01 55:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:19

Because then that's like it feels like I'm only a friend of convenience.

SPEAKER_01 55:23

Yeah, no, I quit.

SPEAKER_00 55:24

Yeah, I know. I'm I'm still stuck on being second choice. What's that? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:31

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_00 55:32

Sorry about it.

SPEAKER_02 55:33

Yeah. Cleaning up someone else's mess, literally or emotionally. Uh I need a break. Yeah. I feel like I do that for a living. Mm-hmm. And sometimes we really do love our jobs, people. I don't know why it sounds like we hate it. No, we love our jobs. Yeah. Supporting someone through chaos, they created themselves. I need a break. Yeah. Because again, we need a vacation. We do need a vacation. It's hard being a therapist, people.

SPEAKER_03 56:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:04

But like we love it. Seriously. I'm not being a little bit more. No, seriously. Yeah. Being expected to just handle it.

SPEAKER_00 56:14

Um, I mean, I feel like I just handle it anyway myself, so I'm fine.

SPEAKER_02 56:20

I don't know. But like being expected to. Wait, yeah, that's different. Yeah. Like if you have faith in me that I'm gonna do it already, like, alright, cool. I can I can respect that. I can appreciate that, but yeah, not expected. Yeah, you're like, we're just hanging out, and you're like, okay, Vanessa's gonna handle my dead weight or my lightweight, however that shit goes. Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 56:42

Every episode, we're gonna start a segment for like how does the saying go? Yes. Ugh. Yeah, no. But like I would need a break, you're right.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

Because if it's an expectation, now we're in a different border. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:56

Having to stay calm while everyone else spirals. I'm fine. Yeah, that's what we do. Yeah. Be in the voice of reason that gets ignored. I quit. Yeah. Ugh. Watching someone outgrow you but still needing you. No, bye. Yeah, I can't.

SPEAKER_00 57:15

Because you can't outgrow me and still need me. Yeah. No.

SPEAKER_02 57:19

It's like you just want me around as a crutch now. Right. Feeling like if you stop showing up, everything will fall apart. I that's so true though. I need a break.

SPEAKER_00 57:32

Because, like, yeah, if I stop showing up, things might fall apart.

SPEAKER_02 57:38

You think so?

SPEAKER_00 57:39

Yeah, that's how highly I think I'm valued in life.

SPEAKER_02 57:44

No, I'm just kidding. No, you might be right. Alright, that was good. Yeah. Love that. Okay. Our second mini game is Give the Sidekick Their Own Story. Oh, this is good. And we didn't even get to like really think about this. No, we did. So let's. This is just freestyling right now. Okay. Because we have so many different sidekicks. Okay. Yeah. Okay, so if they were the main character, what is their story actually about? Okay. Alright. Okay, so Astorin. I think. So Astorin is one of the witches. Yes. And she is Manon, Manon's second. I believe they're actually cousins, if I'm not mistaken. You're about to read it, so you'll know. I don't remember. Yeah, but yes, I know who she is, but yeah. She is oh her story. Okay, first of all, before we get into it, so her story would be about grief, loss, and reclaiming identity after everything was taken away from her. Like, you remember the grandmother? And I didn't even read this where I was, like, in Era Fire, so I think this story we get later on. Later, yeah, yeah. But like Astorin's story, like when you talk about grief, like the whole situation. I don't know if she's the one that had a baby or was pregnant, yeah or something. I think it was her. Yeah. And then she had her guy in the woods. Yeah. Yeah. And then she like because he was aging and she wasn't, you know, like she just watched him grow old there, like waiting for her. Yeah. I could like if she and like she's a side character. Like we don't really, those are the glimpses of things we know about her. So just imagine, like, yeah, if she had her own story, I would love that. Just a standalone about a witch who fucking falls in love with a mortal guy and watches him and he waits for oh, hello, but also like man in and yeah. Well, not really, actually, no, never mind, because he's not really yeah, um, yeah, but yeah, no, I I mean her story is amazing, and I'm sure it was mentioned and made such a thing for a reason, too, you know. I hope, yeah, I hope so too. But I would love that. But even just imagining imagining it just so briefly as we just did, right? That just made me so happy, so I can only imagine like saying, Yeah, that's enough. You just needed that two-line description, and I want the rest. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:17

Alright, so Elite or Elliday. Oh my god, no. We need to do a poll right now. See, I want just one person, if just one person, please. We like don't even get emails, so I'm I'm being so real with hell right now. If one person out there can please email us, I know that the pronunciation is Alid Lochin or Lochlin, whatever her name is. Um I only know how to pronounce the first name. Okay. But I heard it called what? Ella Day? Ella Day, and I think Ella Day is beautiful. Yeah. But I need someone else, not me or Narisa, to like break this tie or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:57

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:58

How do you pronounce Alid Lock Lock? How do you pronounce Elide's name? Elide or Eliday? There's Eliday. I just need someone to be on my side. Thank you. Okay. What would Elide's story be about? Yeah, so first of all, like we meet her and she's just this like fragile girl, and like one of her, you know, she has like a deformity in her foot.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:21

And like not much of a story, but then she also becomes such a powerful character, like without the physical story. What do you mean, not so much of a story?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:32

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:33

I mean like When we meet her? Yeah, yeah, right. But like she's not so much in the forefront, I mean, like she's a side piece. Yeah, she's a side piece, but like she becomes such a powerhouse, yeah, like without the physical strength, and just like having her survive through her intelligence and resilience, which she like that girl just kept going. Yeah. And wasn't there a point where she had to like physically run? Oh yeah, she had to run, and then even when we first meet, like when Lorcan first um kind of interacts with her and he's watching her in the in the woods or wherever they are, and like she has to run. But like, I think her story, like, if she had a story, it would be so good. Yeah, like um, just because her and Ailen would have been raised as sisters, yeah. Her mom was Ailen's mom's handmaid, right? Right, handmaid's tale, but no, not like that, not like that one, no. But yeah, so she would have been raised right there with the Queen of Terracin, you know, like it's just so crazy. Yeah. I also want a story of her and Ailen, like when they knew each other. But that's what I'm saying. She would have been raised with her. Yeah, no, but I'm saying, like, yes, what you're saying, I actually want Sarah J to do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is our request. This is our software. These are all our requests, right? And these all her. Yep, these are all her. And then for our listeners, if you have any spin-offs that you want, yeah, like write them in and like we'll pitch them here to whoever can listen. Like, whoever can get in touch with SJM. Maybe she'll hear us one day and use your spin-off idea. So come on. Yeah, let's go. We'll give you credit, don't we? Yeah, of course. Yeah. All right. Okay, so let's say Lysandra. Um so her book or her story would be about reclaiming autonomy after being used and controlled. Yeah. And boy, would I pay to read her story. Yeah, me too. Like, remember when we first meet her, well, like, I haven't even met her where I am in the book. Right. But you met her in the first book. I did. So I'm about to meet her now. But I remember from meeting her a few years ago.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:52

She um she wasn't someone I liked. She wasn't, she I thought she was a bitch. I was like, why are you in Aylen's way or Selena's way? Like, nobody wants everybody, you know, like just all this stuff. But then when we start to see her as a person and start to see that like she has been used and abused and doesn't even know who she is, doesn't know her family. Yeah. But now she does. That's it. But yeah. But also, like, yeah, where her story starts, like she's being paid, she's like a a courtesan. Yeah, and she's being paid. Yeah, you know, and you know who that I hate gonna go spend all of that money on her and um pissed me off in that mother ass book. So, like Sandra, I I would love it. Yeah, I would love to oh, speaking of spider silk, her uncle, listen, y'all, I'm spoiling. Her uncle was the um spider silk guy who traded his um Oh, was he? When did we find that out? In the Kingdom of Ash, I think. Okay, well, I didn't get there yet. I forgot. Well, yeah, we'll get to it when we get there. Okay, but yeah, so but the point is like she has a family, and the family was working with Aylen, and it's just so cool how everything plays out. But the one that gave her the spider silk in the case. Yeah, that's her. That's like Sandra's uncle. Oh shit, yeah. Well, I guess because remember, we thought that could have been her dad, but then he was like, Oh no, her dad fell in love with whoever, blah blah blah. I got uh I got it. Well, whatever. Oh, and then we could see her shift into different people and change forms and oh she should change into like animals, yeah. Underwater creatures. She could have her own like series of just like different animal adventures that she goes across. Yeah, I love it. All right, if you're listening again. Yeah. All right, let's talk about Lucian because hello. Yeah, Lucian, loyalty versus belonging, never fully happened. Having a place to land.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:02

Like Tamlin's right hand man, who like I actually liked him better than Tamlin. Me too. I did too.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:08

And I feel like he was such a side piece.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:11

A side piece.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:12

Yeah. But he I want his story too. Well, we might get it, actually.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:17

We might get it. But like honestly, I don't feel the only thing that is keeping me on board is because of my theory that Mama Archiron is somehow a crock and witch or like one of those witches from the plan. Okay. Iron teeth. She would be an iron teeth witch. But that's the only reason I care because I feel like Elaine doesn't even deserve Tamlin. I mean, shit. Lucian. She can have Tamlin. Yeah, she can have Tam. She doesn't deserve Lucian. I agree. Because he's such a good person. Yeah. And I'm not saying that Elaine isn't, but again, you watched your little sister, you know, pick up your whole fucking family when your mom was gone and your dad went limp.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:00

Like why did you say it like that?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:06

Yeah. But you know what I mean? So like I just don't like her. So I would love to see all this to say I would love to see Lucian's story of him like really winning somehow. Of him falling in love with someone who you know deserves him. Yeah. Yeah. And what it feels like for him to be chosen and not get the the third sister who fucking hates. Yeah, I know. I don't want them together either, gotta be honest with you. But like again, TBD, because we might get it. Okay. Okay. Another one who we might get a story. Azriel. Yeah. And not the book of just the bat the bat boy. Yeah. So his story would be about silence, longing, and what happens when you're always the one who watches but never receives.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:57

Yeah, he deserves. I need more about him. And I think I've always said this like, I need a book of Azreel. Yeah. And not the book, I need his story.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:08

Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Yeah, because when you think of the Bat Boys, you're like, okay, Rhysand and um Cassian. Yeah. And then Azreel. What do you mean? And um Cassian. Like you almost forgot. That's your whole life. Yeah. But um, but yeah, like Azreel is kind of like in the background of even the Bat Boys. Yeah. And like that can go along with like how he was brought into the story. Right. And how he was raised and his Yeah. I want his story. I mean, I don't think I could give spoilers to Acatar because I'm assuming all of you had to have at least read Akatar. Yes. But the point is, he needs he needs a story. Right. But again, TBD, we might get it. But not just the thing is, even if we get like the story of Lucian and Azreel and all of them, I would want it to not necessarily just be a spin-off, but it to be like they are the story. Like there is no yeah. Right, right. Not a side piece story. Yeah, exactly. We want a story story. Oh my god. I wonder if there's gonna be any crossovers in these Avatar books. I hope so. Oh, please let there be a crossover. I don't see why not. If there was one in the last one before she even had time to really say, but like I don't know if she's gonna feel like people are expecting it and then not do it, but I hope she does it.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:22

We'll see. We'll see. Alright, and finally, but never finally, our little wahaba. Lily.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:34

Lily.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:35

We love you. Oh my god. So her little story deserves a big story. Yeah. And that would look like finding purpose and worth, even when the world sees you was small. She was so powerful and she was made the ultimate sacrifice. And I want her story. I need her story. And like I love how the other fire sprites, after, you know, you know, after when we met them, like they were like whoever those people. Yeah, we were so proud of them. Like they were so proud of like La Haba and her sacrifice, and they heard of it. And I'm so glad that they're queen, you know, like it wasn't all in vain. And yeah, my goodness, she was just so I love it. She's like the perfect little friend. La Java was kind of like what I feel like Lexi would be to me if Lexi could talk. Yeah. Like she would be there watching her little shows, right? Doing her thing. Oh my god. Yeah. Oh, I love when she used to watch her little like novellas or whatever. And then she'd be like, How's Athy? Yeah. Oh my god, I love her. I love her. Her little couch.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:48

Oh yeah. Oh. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:52

All right. So I have to um I need to give an honorable mention. Because some side characters don't stay side characters. Molly. Oh my god, where's Molly? Because she really said, I'm not staying in the background and got her own book. She sure did, and we loved it. We loved it. And this is Where's Molly by H.D. Carlton. Carlton. Carlton. As I'm saying. But yeah, Molly. You know, in the book, when I tell you Molly wasn't even a side character. No. She was legit just someone's book in the place where she was like not even a where once her face got captured and she was being trafficked. Yes. The journal. The journal of Underless Sister. Right. Like she wasn't even a kid. Nobody here. And we're like, oh, who's Molly? Oh, but then it's like HD did her thing with that one. Loved it. I think that was like my favorite HD piece. Yeah. Not gonna lie. No, that where's Molly was so good. Like I can imagine that pig farm. Like, and then when she did the crossover, I was like, oh HD, you got me. I'm sold. Yeah. Any book, anything that's ever gonna come out again, I'm here for it. I will buy it a million times. Speaking of, do you know when the date is?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:12

Oh my god, I feel like it's soon.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:14

Yeah, like July or something like that, right? I think the first one's like this month. And then the next one's in like okay, I gotta double check. Yeah. But yeah, we're getting something. Okay, good. Because like that is what I'm talking about. That's what the people want. She gave us something that we didn't even know we needed. I love it. I need HD to do more of these, and I'm looking forward to her two new books. I'm looking forward to meeting her. She's not gonna be there?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:40

No. Oh girl. Let's just make up our own book con. I know. Uh you know, book con guest list. Yeah. Private, just for us.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:51

Well, I guess if you listen, we'll invite you.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:54

So you know, n you never know. We might be that famous down the line. So remember we said this, listeners.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:01

Alright.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:02

Accountable.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:03

Oh, that was good. Yeah. I enjoy that one. And like for you guys, you know, if you feel like this is you, it's time to come out the side and be in the spotlight.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:16

Yeah. Because you deserve a spotlight.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:19

Yeah. Know your worth. You deserve to be in the spotlight and put yourself first. And you know it's hard for us because we're busy taking care of everybody in the world. And yeah, we got all the responsibilities and this and that and whatever, and you can make all the excuses. But like you deserve to be in the spotlight too.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:36

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:38

Yep. Alright.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:40

Well, as usual, we got a special edition. A special edition. We got a special, our first special episode coming up.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:49

Oh, yeah. We have a once upon a session special. We have a once upon a session special. Okay, let's get started. Alright. Okay. Next session, we're switching things up. We're going to a galaxy far, far away. But don't get it twisted. They're still getting analyzed. Because lightsabers aside. There's a lot to unpack. Yes, guys.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:14

So in time for our favorite day of the year, May the 4th, slash. That's not really our favorite day. It's May the 6th, 5th.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:23

Or May the 5th. May the 5th. Yeah, whatever. Fourth, 5th, and 6th. Yeah. That's all us.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:30

Um yeah, we're gonna be talking Star Wars and the psychology behind the obsession. Yeah. We cannot wait. Alright.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:42

That's it for session, you guys. See you next time. We want you to be a part of this world with us. Send us your book recommendations, character obsessions, and your fantasy side piece ideas. Yeah, all of it. Yeah, or topics you want us to cover. You can find us on Instagram and TikTok at once upon a session pod. Or email us at info at onceupona sessionpod.com if you want to share thoughts, suggestions, or just scream about a plot twist with us. Yes. So are we charging for this session?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:19

Emotionally always. See you next session.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:24

Same couch, same chaos.