Session 13: Fallen Warriors- Why Heroic Sacrifice Breaks Our Hearts

Some characters die in battle.
Others become the reason people keep fighting.

In this Memorial Day episode of Once Upon a Session, we explore the psychology of sacrifice, loyalty, and what it means to be remembered through two fallen warriors: Gavriel from Thrones of Glass and Liam from Fourth Wing.

Together, we unpack the emotional weight carried by the protectors, the ones who love quietly, fight fiercely, and often give everything before they ever ask for anything in return.

Because grief doesn’t just come from losing someone.

Sometimes it comes from finally realizing how much they carried for everyone else.

Disclaimer: We’re licensed therapists, but not your therapists. This podcast is for reflection and conversation, not a substitute for therapy.

✨ Follow Once Upon a Session for new episodes exploring stories, psychology, and healing.

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:12

Why do the characters who die always hurt the most?

SPEAKER_06 0:15

Because somehow it's never just about the death.

SPEAKER_05 0:18

It's what they represented: the loyalty, the sacrifice, the people who they were trying to protect. And the fact that some of them never got the ending they deserved. Which is exactly why this episode is gonna hurt. This is Once Upon a Session, where two therapists turn their TBR pile into treatment plans, and every story becomes a question. I'm Vanessa, and I'm Teresa. I'm the one who always gets attached to the characters willing to sacrifice everything.

SPEAKER_06 0:45

And I'm the one who's still grieving every fictional warrior that deserved better. Alright, just a quick note before we dive in.

SPEAKER_05 0:53

We're both licensed therapists, but we're not your therapists.

SPEAKER_06 0:56

Everything we share here is for conversation, reflection, and maybe a little inspiration.

SPEAKER_05 1:02

But it's not a substitute for therapy. If you're struggling, please reach out to a mental health professional who can give you the care and support you deserve.

SPEAKER_06 1:09

Now that you're all checked in, have a seat on our couch.

SPEAKER_05 1:15

Okay, so before we get into today's session, just a quick spoiler warning. We'll be discussing major plot points and character deaths from Fourth Wing and Throne of Glass.

SPEAKER_06 1:24

And because this is our Memorial Day episode, we also want to take a moment to acknowledge and honor the real life fallen soldiers and service members who gave their lives in service.

SPEAKER_05 1:34

We're incredibly grateful for their sacrifice, and we want to thank all veterans, active service members, and military families for their service and strength.

SPEAKER_06 1:43

This episode is about fictional fallen warriors, but today especially we also recognize the real people whose sacrifices deserve to be remembered. Yes, thank you all for your thank you, friend. For your service for your support. You got it. Alright, guys. Well, what's up? Welcome back.

SPEAKER_05 2:04

Oh, hi people.

SPEAKER_06 2:06

I forgot. I thought you were just talking to me. Yeah, I am talking to you. Oh, yeah. It's like the people are in our conversation. You guys are all here too. You're part of this. So join it and talk back to us. Yes. What's going on?

SPEAKER_05 2:22

So like okay, so remember this morning when I was telling you that I woke up and I was watching this show, and it just had a last name that happened to be um someone I met in the army. So it prompted me to like Google him and what popped up was his obituary from three years ago.

SPEAKER_06 2:41

Oh, that's so wild.

SPEAKER_05 2:43

Yeah. So like fallen warriors. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:47

It happened. It was meant to happen. Not his death. No, no. I mean, like for you to see it. For me to see it right before we record. Man, how how did you know him? Like he you worked with him?

SPEAKER_05 2:58

I met him in basic training, and then we did AIT together. So we spent like a rough time in our lives together. Like that initial boot camp situation, and then yeah. So it was like kind of a close relationship, even though it wasn't daily. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 3:17

Oh man.

SPEAKER_05 3:19

I uh what's going on now?

SPEAKER_06 3:21

Well, you work with veterans every day. Yeah, I work with veterans every day.

SPEAKER_05 3:25

Yeah, so and yeah, yeah, just thank you to everyone who served and who support those who serve. Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 3:34

That's right. And if you're a veteran who's struggling, go see. Come see me. I can help. She can help.

SPEAKER_05 3:42

Um, but right now I am reading. Yeah, what are we reading? I'm reading the Torches meh. Got you a bit.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

Got you a bit. Um, I'm doing the tandem.

SPEAKER_04 3:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 3:58

Whatever.

SPEAKER_03 3:59

What? What's the problem?

SPEAKER_06 4:02

Calling up your spot right now to the people.

SPEAKER_04 4:04

Cause like two days ago, uh huh, she was on Queen of Shadows. She was like, I refuse to be recording and say I'm still on Queen of the Shadows.

SPEAKER_05 4:13

That's why I tried to say it first before you said what you were reading.

SPEAKER_04 4:18

And so, like, yesterday, all of a sudden, she's telling me to catch up. Yeah. And I'm like, you just got here. You just didn't want to embarrass yourself on the podcast.

SPEAKER_05 4:26

No, because you were trying to embarrass me every day when you're like, Where are you in the book? So you know me. If I'm not telling you where I'm at in the book, it's because I'm embarrassed that I'm so far behind in the book.

SPEAKER_06 4:37

Oh my god, that's so funny. So yeah. No, I love it. But I love how quickly you caught up, also, because yeah, once you lock in, you lock in.

SPEAKER_05 4:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 4:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:46

What about you? Um, oh, you just said you were reading the same book like the same thing. Like work stuff. What's going on at work?

SPEAKER_06 4:55

Oh, I wanted to just talk about just one thing from the tandem book real quick. So I was reading Torre Chesme and Cacho the Pepe.

SPEAKER_05 5:05

Can we just call the tandem read Cachio and Pepe? So Cachio can be um the toilet chemicals and pepe can be tarved on. No. What? Empire storms. I always get them confused.

SPEAKER_04 5:21

Okay, it's alright.

SPEAKER_05 5:21

Okay, Cacho the Pepe.

SPEAKER_04 5:23

I was reading Cacho and Pepe.

SPEAKER_06 5:27

Oh my god. And like when Urene, how do you say her name?

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Irene. Okay, it's urine. Irene and Elodie. Elode. No. Okay, Irene and Elie.

SPEAKER_06 5:47

Whatever. Irene sounds like this lady that used to come to my mom's house when I was younger. And she used to call walk by, and my mom used to call out the gates. Irene. Okay, anyway. She was homeless and she used to come and my mom used to give her food and like it was cute things. Okay, how did we get here? Alright. So she kept um who's she? Irene. Irene. Irene.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Oh my god. Irene, you don't want to do this anymore.

SPEAKER_05 6:22

I want to call her Irene. Irene wanted to say it right. Okay, that's not right. Who told you that that's right?

SPEAKER_06 6:29

Um my brain.

SPEAKER_05 6:30

Okay, then it's right.

SPEAKER_06 6:32

Okay, thanks. I hear.

SPEAKER_05 6:34

I'm just gonna say Irene very slowly and like whispered into the mic for the people who got agita from this as well.

SPEAKER_06 6:42

Alright, Irene. So she had the note from Selena in her pocket, and she kept touching it and kept touching it and kept touching it. And I was like, oh my god, it's so of course now I'm putting this together because I'm so slow. You still didn't know? No, no, I knew, but I'm saying, no, I'm just saying, like, oh my god, like she's about to treat Kale, and Kale knows the person who gave her the note in her pocket, and they're gonna be like, Well, I'm from here and you're from here, and they're gonna be like, Oh my god, it's the same it was all being set up, it was all being set up the whole time, and it's just like we see it all come together, but just it's so fucking cool.

SPEAKER_05 7:19

Like, even how Elite has the stuff, and she's like, Okay, I know Aileen's alive, but whoever this Selena Sardofian is, yeah, like girl, you don't know. It's like a feel-good setup.

SPEAKER_06 7:29

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 7:30

But then that makes the stakes higher because, like, if they don't make it, then they'll never know. Yeah, like if they die.

SPEAKER_06 7:36

Sarah was doing she knew what she was doing. Yeah, all right. Anyway, thanks, Sarah, as always. Okay, we're still on the one reading thing. Okay, what's going on with work? Work is going great. Something happened at work, and I can't remember now, and it was good and something, but it's fine. I'll come back to it if I remember.

SPEAKER_03 7:57

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 7:59

What's going on with you at work? You had an eventful day yesterday.

SPEAKER_03 8:03

Yeah, yesterday was nuts.

SPEAKER_06 8:05

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 8:06

It was such a good day. Yeah, though. It was it was amazing, and I found someone who I've been looking for for like two years, and she just like came up to me. Did you go up to her and say, There you are? No, I've been looking for you. I did actually. Holy shit, that is what I said to her. I said, I've been looking for you for like two years, where have you been? And whatever, but it was just I felt like like I told you, even this morning, the universe has just been like like you're on the right path somehow. Because yesterday I missed um I was running late and I was helping another veteran with something, and he was like taking a long time, and I was standing there, like, oh my god, I'm ready to go downstairs, I'm hungry. Right, and if I didn't wait those extra 30 minutes helping that veteran, I would have never ran into her downstairs.

SPEAKER_06 8:52

Fate. Yeah, my god. I'm so that was a good thing.

SPEAKER_05 8:56

Yeah, I just love being back on the psychoard.

SPEAKER_06 8:58

Everything is perfect, and oh, that's what I was gonna say. Like, as you're telling me about like stuff, like you know, just stuff that's happening. I'm like, God, I miss the psych ward so much.

SPEAKER_05 9:10

Yeah, when you said that, I it's just like flashbacks of like us being on the psych ward together, us in rounds, like morning rounds, and the charts going around, and then just going down and getting our meals. We used to eat a lot at that job.

SPEAKER_06 9:26

Oh my god, so always and then with the baked. Remember that cookie every damn day. Yeah. When I first started there, it was bad.

SPEAKER_05 9:34

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 9:35

But yeah, that was part of the problem. All right, okay. So your question is what's something this week that required more strength from you than people probably realized?

SPEAKER_05 9:49

Just moving back to the psych ward and having people welcome me back.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:53

And, you know, I'm just not sure how I feel about it because you know, I left and it I didn't leave on bad terms, but it was still an uncomfortable kind of situation for me to deal with.

SPEAKER_06 10:05

And I look uncomfortable again, like coming back. Yeah. But I'm sure they welcomed you like well, they were like thirsty to have you back actually.

SPEAKER_05 10:14

Okay, so for you, what's something that reminded you you're more resilient than you thought?

SPEAKER_06 10:20

So I actually had, I guess we can call it a little bit of tri counter-transference, but like not in a negative way. Um, so a client that I have is going through something similar to what I went through in a relationship. And just now having to sit here and advise someone, you know, whatever, guide someone through what they're going through without me having to like share too much, obviously, right? It like it felt hypocritical, but also I was just so proud that I went through the thing that I went through and like I'm here on this other side, you know. So it's like encouraging people or trying to motivate people to see that change is possible, you know, and they can be happy. Um and it just reminded me of how resilient I am for getting through that situation, you know, and that that was a nice moment.

SPEAKER_05 11:17

I love that because you can hear it, right? You can hear it from someone just like your client now is hearing it from someone you, yeah, and it just doesn't really click all the way, and you don't realize you've gotten there until you're explaining to someone this is possible, and then you validate yourself in that moment because you're like, it's possible because I am I am there.

SPEAKER_06 11:37

Yeah, it's it was just a really nice moment.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

So yeah, I thought about that for you. That's it.

SPEAKER_05 11:46

All right, emotional damage acknowledged.

SPEAKER_06 11:49

Yes, let's get into today's session. As we mentioned earlier, today's episode is a little different because we're talking about the characters who didn't make it to the end, but somehow still change the story forever.

SPEAKER_05 12:02

So today we're talking about sacrifice, loyalty, grief, and the people willing to give everything for others, and the impact some people leave behind long after they're gone.

SPEAKER_06 12:15

Alright.

SPEAKER_05 12:16

Okay, so psychologically, why are we so affected by people who sacrifice themselves for others?

SPEAKER_06 12:22

Because sacrifice taps into something deeply human.

SPEAKER_05 12:26

Yeah, I think it kind of makes you look at yourself in that moment and be like, oh, I would have to really feel something for this to sacrifice for it, you know, because I love my life. And it like, you know, it kind of makes you tap into that.

SPEAKER_06 12:40

No, it really does.

SPEAKER_05 12:41

A lot of people who step into protector roles carry an enormous amount of responsibility, and a lot of that pressure becomes internalized really early.

SPEAKER_06 12:50

This idea that you have to stay strong, stay dependable, and keep going no matter what.

SPEAKER_05 12:56

And we especially see that in military culture.

SPEAKER_06 12:59

Where duty, loyalty, discipline, and protecting others often become a part of someone's identity. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:06

Yeah, there's also a huge psychological weight that comes with constantly being responsible for other people's safety.

SPEAKER_06 13:12

And that pressure can lead to emotional suppression, hypervigilance, survivor's guilt, burnout, and difficulty turning that survival mindset off.

SPEAKER_05 13:22

A lot of service members are trained to push through fear, exhaustion, grief, and pain.

SPEAKER_06 13:28

But psychologically, those emotions don't just disappear because you ignore them.

SPEAKER_05 13:32

And I think people underestimate how much military families carry too.

SPEAKER_06 13:36

Yeah. The uncertainty, the fear of loss, long separations, constant worry that impacts entire families emotionally.

SPEAKER_05 13:46

There's also something really emotional about people who sacrifice quietly.

SPEAKER_06 13:51

Yeah. People who don't ask for recognition, who just carry responsibility because they feel like it's their job.

SPEAKER_05 13:58

And psychologically, we tend to deeply admire people who make others feel safe.

SPEAKER_06 14:03

Especially when protecting others comes at a personal cost. Yeah. Did any of that like relate to you? Like, could you relate to that?

SPEAKER_05 14:12

Yeah, I mean all of it, right? When I was in Afghanistan and there was a moment where he ended up having to be switched to a different fob because they the command started to look at the situation and they're like, well, he's gonna continue to like put himself in harm's way because I was on tower. Um I was on guard duty.

SPEAKER_06 14:33

Toraches.

SPEAKER_05 14:35

I was on guard duty and to know like that he's sacrificing, and I didn't know he was coming, like whatever happened. But it's like to find that out, and I'm like, this is why he gotta go. Now he gotta go. So then they moved him to a different phone. Those quiet sacrifices are just they hit different.

SPEAKER_06 14:54

Ugh, well, thank him. Thank you. Thanks, bleep. Sacrifice can look heroic from the outside, but psychologically it often comes with a heavy emotional cost. Peeper no yes, peeper never, people never fully see. Fallen warriors exist in almost every fantasy world, and somehow they always become the characters people never emotionally recover from. Because they usually represent the heart of the story, the loyalty, the sacrifice, the emotional grounding, and the people willing to risk everything for everyone else.

SPEAKER_05 15:34

And a lot of the time they aren't even the main character, but they become the emotional backbone of the entire story. Their deaths usually shift the emotional tone of everything after.

SPEAKER_06 15:45

Because once they're gone, the story never feels safe in the same way again.

SPEAKER_05 15:49

And honestly, some of the most loved fictional characters are the ones who left the biggest emotional scars.

SPEAKER_06 16:00

Because fallen warriors usually represent more than just death, they represent love through action, sacrifice without hesitation, and the kind of loyalty people don't forget.

SPEAKER_05 16:12

Some characters survive the story.

SPEAKER_06 16:14

And some become unforgettable because they didn't.

SPEAKER_05 16:17

Yeah, can you imagine how many people I'm too selfish to sacrifice?

SPEAKER_06 16:22

No, that's not true.

SPEAKER_05 16:23

Just the act of sacrificing, no matter if it's big or small, if you're looking at it like, oh, this is a little thing I can sacrifice here, it's not much of a sacrifice. You're providing a kindness, right?

SPEAKER_06 16:33

That's or you're being accommodating, something like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:38

So I think a sacrifice in the sense that we're thinking of it, right? Like life or death. Yeah. That's different.

SPEAKER_06 16:42

But oh, that's definitely that's and that's what I mean. Like, I you know how people are always like, if a bullet was coming at me, would you jump in front of it? I I I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 16:55

No, honestly, no.

SPEAKER_05 16:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 16:58

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_05 16:59

I always felt like I don't know, like when I used to walk Lexi, she there would be moments where I'm like, okay, if we if a car is coming or if a dog is coming, like I used to think, the hypervigilance, you know, the PDSD. PDSD. But like I used to look around and check my surroundings and be like, okay, if we get hit or if Lexi runs off, I would run into traffic instantly. Yeah. Without a second thought.

SPEAKER_06 17:23

That's see, that's why I was whispering, like, oh, well, that's different.

SPEAKER_05 17:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 17:27

Same.

SPEAKER_05 17:28

But two. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 17:29

Absolutely. I would rather get hit by a car than a car.

SPEAKER_04 17:32

Mia and fan. I'm just kidding. I love the new ones.

SPEAKER_06 17:38

Yeah, it's okay. They're Faye. Yeah. They're Faye. They're Faye. So it's fine. Yeah. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:47

Sometimes I forget we're like doing a show.

SPEAKER_06 17:49

I know, me too. You see, I was just confused. I was like, wait, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:52

Yeah, so let's actually get into our show now. Yeah, let's get into it.

SPEAKER_06 17:56

Alright, who's sitting on your couch today?

SPEAKER_05 17:58

I am bringing Yes. I'm bringing Gabrielle from Drona Glass.

SPEAKER_06 18:04

I'm gonna get the tissues. Yes. And I'm bringing Liam from Fourth Wing.

SPEAKER_05 18:09

Was it his honor?

SPEAKER_06 18:10

It was. So basically we chose emotional damage. So yeah. Like we said, we're spoiling stuff. Like absolutely spoiling shit today. Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:23

So check yourself before we wreck yourself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 18:26

We're about to wreck ourselves. Yeah. Oh my god. Okay, you want to go first? I'll go first. Okay, good. Okay. Ahead. Alright. I can't. I'm not ready.

SPEAKER_05 18:38

So I'm not ready either.

SPEAKER_06 18:39

I'm about to reread this whole thing you're about to talk about next.

SPEAKER_05 18:43

Because we're on Cacho at Pepe. Yeah. So we only have one more book. Yeah. Okay. So for anyone who hasn't read Throne of Glass, first of all, this series emotionally ruins people in the best way possible. So, like, if you seriously haven't read it, I am disappointed. But more importantly, like I'm a little jealous that you get to read this for the first time.

SPEAKER_06 19:08

I'm super jealous. And we're reading it for the second time, and we're still jealous.

SPEAKER_05 19:13

Yeah. Okay. But it's this massive fantasy story about power, war, loyalty, sacrifice, survival, and what people are willing to become for the people they love. And as the series expands, it stops being just one hero story. It becomes this huge network of warriors, queens, witches, fey, healers, and survivors, all carrying different versions of grief and responsibility. And by the final Terracen arc, everyone is fighting on borrowed time. The world is basically collapsing into war, and the emotional weight of the series becomes who survives, who sacrifices themselves, and what does loyalty actually cost? And honestly, one thing Sarah J. Mass does really well is showing that the strongest warriors are often carrying the deepest emotional pain quietly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 20:01

That's her special tea, one of them.

SPEAKER_05 20:04

Yeah. So you just gotta remember, like, here we are at the end of the book, you know, at the end of the series, and this is where like my character is coming from. Like, I mean, he's been there, but this is yeah, this is the final battle, like when it matters, this is a big deal. Yeah. So Gabrielle is one of the members of Maeve's cadre, which is basically this legendary group of elite warriors, Fey warriors, feared across the world.

SPEAKER_06 20:31

You get your own cadre over there. Yes, I do. These are my triari. Yeah, and her cadre is named after these books that we're talking about.

SPEAKER_05 20:39

Fenris and Mia, Nahemia.

SPEAKER_06 20:42

Nah, Mia Maya. Mia Maya.

SPEAKER_05 20:46

That was the one time. No, it was well, it was Lucian. Lucian. Lucian. Lucian, but it could have been Lucian.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

Lucian.

SPEAKER_05 20:57

Lucian. Lucian. I just pronounced things. I like it.

SPEAKER_06 21:00

Guys.

SPEAKER_05 21:02

And Gabriel himself has a huge reputation. Like, he's known as this incredibly powerful warrior. He's lethal, disciplined, respected, physically intimidating, literally called the lion of Doranel. How do you say Doranel? Doronal?

SPEAKER_06 21:18

No, no, I say Doranel.

SPEAKER_05 21:20

And for most of the series, he carries himself with this very calm, controlled energy. He's not the loudest person in the room, but he's absolutely someone people take seriously. But what makes Gavriel interesting is that underneath all of that strength, there's a tremendous amount of emotional restraint. Because for years his life was shaped by loyalty and obligation. He was bound to MAVE, and that bond demanded sacrifice constantly, not just physically, but emotionally too. And I think that's really important when looking at his character because Gavriel spends so much of his life existing in service to duty, war, and loyalty that emotional vulnerability almost becomes secondary.

SPEAKER_06 22:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:01

Yeah. So to understand you forgot about Gabrielle?

SPEAKER_06 22:07

I didn't forget about him. I'm just saying, like, on top of him being a warrior, he also had to deal with Maeve. He had to deal with her bullshit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:15

Can you imagine being bound to someone?

SPEAKER_06 22:17

And like you just have to, you can't like you, everything they say, you have to do.

SPEAKER_05 22:22

Like, I was I would say, like, my dog's here, but they ignore me all the fucking time. Right. You know, but if they were forced to.

SPEAKER_06 22:29

Yeah. And you can't release your bound ship. Yeah, unless you're unbound, unless they give you permission.

SPEAKER_05 22:38

Yeah. So yeah, he just can't even focus on anything else that he has going on because at any moment he can really, you know, the way that Maeve controls him, it's like he almost can't even think of anything. He he can't even keep secrets, you know. And then there comes Adian, you know. And honestly, that relationship is one of the most heartbreaking dynamics in the series.

unknown 23:01

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 23:02

Not because Adian grows up without him, yeah, not fully understanding why his father wasn't there. And Gabriel carries that guilt quietly for years. Yeah. And it's it's painful because the love is clearly there. Like Gabriel absolutely loves his son. And this is, you know, if you're not like if you don't know that Gabriel is Aiden's father, and they found out in the book, and Rowan told him you're gonna forget by the time you need to read it.

SPEAKER_06 23:28

But like also, we're starting to.

SPEAKER_05 23:29

I'm just talking as though like you already know what's going on. So please just know what's going on.

SPEAKER_06 23:34

And if you didn't know, now you know.

unknown 23:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:37

Okay, so yeah, he just doesn't always know how to bridge the emotional distance between them because like they're new, they're just meeting each other anyway. Um, right, and instead, he defaults to what he understands best protection, sacrifice, showing love through action instead of vulnerability. And that pattern follows him all the way into the war of terracin because by the end, Gabriel is sacrificing over and over again his freedom, his emotional needs, his chance at closeness, and eventually his life. And what makes his death hit so hard, spoiler, isn't just that he dies in a battle, it's that he finally starts allowing himself to move towards connection and emotional openness right before losing the opportunity to fully live inside it.

SPEAKER_06 24:21

Oh my god. I like I just you know I make things a movie in my head, but close the gate and then just the blood oath at the end. Like you know what I mean? Just the honor, just the when they all came and they came out.

SPEAKER_05 24:36

The blood oath is just I got chills and I can't tell if it's because the windows open or if that shit just got me too. Yeah, because the blood oath is just whoa.

SPEAKER_06 24:45

I'm gonna have a hard time.

SPEAKER_05 24:49

Yeah, when we get back there.

SPEAKER_06 24:50

Yeah, when we get back there.

SPEAKER_05 24:51

Like I it hurt the first time, and I feel like it's we just have to cope ahead this time because we didn't know last time, but what did I used to say? Of like, you know now, so you grow now. You don't remember that? No. I used to say that I um bid blind five hells. Um but yeah. Five hells. Five hells. Okay. So anyway, Gabrielle's presenting problems would be chronic emotional restraint and difficulty expressing vulnerability, deep guilt surrounding absence and important relationships, identity heavily tied to duty, loyalty, and protective roles, fear of emotional rejection leading to distance and self-sacrifice. Some core themes. Um, so when I'm looking at Gabrielle, one of the first things that stands out is how much of him exists behind restraint. Like, this is someone who feels deeply but doesn't always allow himself to fully express it. And I think that's kind of what I was saying. Like, Maebe, he can't even think something without Maebe knowing it, you know, really. So that's terrible. So to even fully express it, yeah, right.

unknown 25:54

Right.

SPEAKER_05 25:55

And a lot of that shows up in his relationships, especially with Adian, because there's this constant tension between wanting connection and believing he may not deserve it. And guilt is a huge piece of his character, not just guilt over what happened in the past, but guilt over time lost, opportunities missed, and the fear that repair might come too late. Hello. And then there's loyalty. Gavriel is incredibly loyal, but in a way that often comes at the expense of himself. His identity becomes tied to protecting other people, and even when it means emotionally disappearing in the process. So what's really happening here is that Gavriel isn't just guarded because he's reserved, he's guarded because vulnerability feels risky. He's learned how to survive through loyalty, strength, and self-sacrifice. But emotional closeness, close why I can never say that word.

unknown 26:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 26:48

But emotional closeness, that's harder for him. And when someone spends years believing their role is to protect instead of connect, you end up with a person who carries a tremendous amount internally without always believing they have the right to take up emotional space.

SPEAKER_06 27:02

That's so true. You know, I was thinking back when um Aylen first met him and he actually helped her. Yeah. And he's a good man. You know, and I think when they met again, you know, it was just nice that she had that moment with him. Like, thank you for helping, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_05 27:25

Yeah, but Lorcan came through when it mattered.

SPEAKER_06 27:28

He's like, to me, run to me. All right.

SPEAKER_05 27:32

I love him.

SPEAKER_06 27:34

He was an asshole.

SPEAKER_05 27:35

Maybe that's why I love him. Yeah. But he started out like that. And then I mean that's how I like them.

SPEAKER_06 27:42

I hated Rowan. And then, like, the end of the Queen of Shadows, I was like, Oh, take me now.

SPEAKER_05 27:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 27:49

I surrender.

SPEAKER_05 27:50

No. You surrender. Alright, and okay, so all of that is pretty much what makes his story so painful. Because by the time he finally starts allowing himself to move towards connection, war doesn't give him the time to fully live inside it. So for his treatment goals, we're gonna try to increase ability to tolerate emotional vulnerability and direct communication, like direct.

SPEAKER_06 28:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:14

Because they were no like needs it. And I knew something was gonna happen. I just the first time reading it, I didn't know who was gonna die. But like I knew it, I was like, we're at the end of this book. We don't have time for y'all not to be like embracing each other now. Right, right. So I was already scared.

SPEAKER_06 28:31

Oh my god, even that slow burn with him meeting his son and them like finally like getting along, and like then it was so devastating. That's what I'm talking about. Please read this.

SPEAKER_04 28:42

Yeah, so emotionally devastated in the best way.

SPEAKER_05 28:46

Yes. Okay. Um, we're gonna process unresolved guilt surrounding absence and missed connection. He literally had to do that to protect him. Like, there was no way he could Yeah. Even if he didn't know he had a son or a child, you know, the idea of it maybe could have just been really bad for him.

SPEAKER_06 29:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:08

Strengthen understanding that love and connection do not need to be earned through sacrifice. Interventions, use attachment-focused interventions to explore emotional avoidance and fear of rejection, encourage grief processing related to lost time and unresolved relationships, explore patterns of self-sacrifice as emotional protection, support development of emotional expression outside of duty and action-based care, expected outcomes, greater emotional openness and relational vulnerability, reduced reliance on sacrifice as proof of love or loyalty, increased capacity for direct emotional connection, improved ability to separate self-worth from protector roles. So for me, Gabrielle's story isn't just about sacrifice, it's about what happens when someone spends so much time protecting others that they never fully believe they deserve to be known themselves. And it that is literal for him. Like he didn't even feel the need to be known.

SPEAKER_06 30:06

Yeah. It's like I'm gonna protect that's why I love that the end when he got the honor he deserved of his queen and his cadre.

SPEAKER_05 30:16

Oh my gosh, it was so sad, but so beautiful. So beautiful, and like the way it happened too. Like we watched it, like you said, it's a slow burn of him getting to know, and then it's also nice though, because that I feel like fueled the relationship with Lysandra and Adian because she was there for him.

SPEAKER_06 30:35

Yeah, during the whole thing.

SPEAKER_05 30:37

Don't you call her Lysandra?

SPEAKER_06 30:39

Yeah, Lysandra.

SPEAKER_05 30:41

Mm-hmm. I like Lysandra.

SPEAKER_06 30:44

I like Lysandra too. Yeah. Alright. Well, another heartbreak. The heartbreaking loss over here. Which, like, I know I was talking to you the other day and I was like, I don't know. I like because I don't remember. We read it so long ago. But I don't remember how much it hurt. I just I knew it hurt, right? But um, I'm gonna be talking about Liam Mayari. Mayri? I don't know how to say his last name. Liam. From Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yarros. Alright, well, if you've been living under a rock for the last five years or whatever, Fourth Wing follows Violet Soringale as she enters the brutal and deadly Biscayath War College, where survival is never guaranteed.

SPEAKER_05 31:31

Remember when I thought it was Basquiat? Like, I think at first glance, I was like, they're a Basquiat. I know it's Biscayat. That's so like a Biscotti. But it's a Bas Gaiat.

SPEAKER_06 31:46

Okay, okay, where was I where survival is never guaranteed? It's fine, you can interrupt anytime. And loyalty often comes at a cost. Among the writers, she meets Liam, a steady, loyal, and deeply dependable presence whose kindness and emotional grounding stand out in an environment built around violence and competition. Liam consistently places himself in danger for the people he cares about, becoming both a protector and an emotional anchor within the group. His story explores the emotional weight carried by people who build their identity around protecting everyone else. Similarly similarly to Gabrielle. Alright, presenting problem behaviors, prioritizing others' safety over his own, identity rooted in being the protector, emotional suppression in high stress situations, difficulty valuing himself outside of usefulness. Um core theme: sacrifice and loyalty, self-worth through protection, emotional restraint, and survival versus self-preservation. Um treatment goals and interventions, explore identity outside of protective role, challenge belief that worth must be earned through sacrifice, increase awareness of emotional and physical limits, and build a balance between loyalty and self-preservation. Um, what progress would look like uh recognizes when loyalty becomes self-sacrifice, allows others to share responsibility, values his own safety alongside others, develops identity beyond being the strong one. The strong one. Um, and the outcome, Liam's story is not about dramatic transformation, it's about emotional impact. He represents the kind of person whose love is expressed through action, loyalty, and protection. The tragedy of his story is not just that he dies, spoiler alert, it's that he never fully learns that his value existed beyond what he was willing to sacrifice for others. Literally sounds like that real. And he, yeah, he was so uh he was such a sweetie. He was he was too a fault. And then isn't his sister around the summer? Yeah, his sister pissed me off when she came somewhere.

SPEAKER_05 34:10

She's okay now, I guess, because she helped in the last book, but I'm I'm over her.

SPEAKER_06 34:15

Yeah, I'm over her too.

SPEAKER_05 34:18

I feel like she kind of tries, I don't know if it's just how I took it because I wasn't feeling her initially, but I feel like she's kind of using his sacrifice like to weaponize it, like to to be like, my brother did this for you, you know, like that. And I just don't like that.

SPEAKER_06 34:37

I hated that, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:38

Because it it can't actually take away from his sacrifice, but it's almost like diluting it, like you're you're fucking it up. Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 34:46

Just let this be a selfless service, and like even in death, he came back to help me. Yeah, I thought she was alive.

SPEAKER_05 34:55

I thought he was alive.

SPEAKER_06 34:56

Yeah, me too. Um but then the people you didn't want to be alive were alive. Jack Barlow. Come on, who gives a fuck about Jack Barlow? Fuck him. Whoop? Did he die?

SPEAKER_05 35:10

Jack Barlow? No, he's a venom.

SPEAKER_06 35:12

Oh, okay. I don't remember.

SPEAKER_05 35:14

Oh, but did he die again?

SPEAKER_06 35:16

Did he yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:17

I don't know. I don't care about Jack Barlow.

SPEAKER_06 35:19

Yeah, I don't really care either. I care about what happened in that hour.

SPEAKER_05 35:23

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_06 35:24

So that better be what we're getting in September. That one hour gap. Anyway. Yes. Okay, it's time. It's treatment team meeting time.

SPEAKER_05 35:37

Oh yay. All right, treatment team meeting.

SPEAKER_06 35:40

Yes, pull your clipboards out.

SPEAKER_05 35:42

Because these characters didn't just survive war.

SPEAKER_06 35:46

They carried responsibility, sacrifice, and survival on their backs. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 35:54

Okay. If Gabrielle walked into my office, my first impression would honestly be someone who presents as calm and composed, but emotionally very contained. Like, this is someone who has learned how to function through restraint. He's steady, reliable, protective. But there's also this feeling that a lot is being held underneath the surface. And I would immediately be paying attention to how he navigates closeness. Because with Gabrielle, connection is there, but there's hesitation inside of it. Almost like he's constantly bracing for rejection before it even happens.

SPEAKER_06 36:29

Yeah. Yeah. Alright, well, if Liam walked in, I think the immediate question would be who are you when you're not protecting someone else? Because so much of his identity is built around being dependable, useful, and emotionally steady for everyone around him. So clinically, he would present as grounded, loyal, highly capable, under pressure, but also emotionally restrained. Um, he feels like someone who learned very early that being useful and dependable is what makes him valuable. Yeah. And yeah, I can absolutely see that. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:05

Alright, so what they think the problem is versus what it actually is. So Gabrielle would probably come in focused on responsibility, what he should have done differently, who he failed, what he needed to protect, which is everything that I've been saying, right? Like, yeah. But clinically, I'd be looking at something deeper a pattern of emotional distance rooted in guilt, fear of vulnerability, and believing that love has to be proven through sacrifice. Because when someone spends years of showing love through protection instead of emotional presence, they can end up feeling closest to people in the moments that they're suffering for them, like when they're actually suffering. But you know, like when you want to make somebody feel good, right? Sometimes you'll you'll hurt, but like you're still in that moment you feel closest to them because they're so appreciative of what you did. Right. Not even knowing that silent sacrifice. Or maybe they do.

SPEAKER_06 38:01

Yeah, and I don't I'm trying to think. I mean, I guess I'll pay more attention, but I don't ever like remember reading Gavriol saying, like, oh fuck, I gotta sacrifice. Like I like I don't remember him ever complaining about anything. Like other people talk back, you know, and they may be like, No, I'm not doing that. Oh, why? He just did it. There was no question whatsoever. Yeah, and I think similarly, you know, I think Liam is the same situation. Yeah, what?

SPEAKER_05 38:32

I was sacrificing silently over here.

SPEAKER_06 38:35

Why?

SPEAKER_05 38:37

Because but you're laughing.

SPEAKER_06 38:40

I wasn't laughing.

SPEAKER_05 38:41

I thought you caught what I was sacrificing. Oh no, I didn't while you were talking.

SPEAKER_06 38:45

Alright, thank you for silently sacrificing. Although I didn't see that's why you're silent.

SPEAKER_05 38:51

I thought that's what you were looking at, that's why you laughed.

SPEAKER_06 38:53

Oh no, no.

SPEAKER_05 38:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 38:56

I laughed at you.

SPEAKER_05 38:57

I don't know. I'm hallucinating.

SPEAKER_06 39:02

Right, yeah, she's hallucinating. Um okay, I think Liam would say things like, I'm just doing what needs to be done, or it's not a big deal. Yeah, absolutely, Liam. But the reality is that he's constantly minimizing his own needs while prioritizing everyone else's survival, safety, and emotional well-being above his own. Yeah. I mean, can you imagine if he was alive and his sister came to the school?

SPEAKER_05 39:31

Like he would probably be dead on the first day.

SPEAKER_06 39:34

Yeah, yeah. No, not my sister. Right, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:40

So that's that. I don't know, but you know, when you're a part of a squad, like it's and oh well, I mean, it's a war college. Like it's like the military, you know, like no, right.

unknown 39:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:51

But it's like when you're in a squad, like you show up for your squad. It's like everyone looks like this whole huge unit, but when it comes down to it, the smallest thing is like your squad. So, like the squad leader, Rhiannon, Rhiannon, Rihanna, whatever her name is. I'm just high, but there was a point, but maybe we'll get to it later. But I I just feel like he was showing up for his squad. It might have looked like he's shown up for like the entire everyone, but really it's like it's the people. Bye.

SPEAKER_06 40:24

I'm laughing because you're like, I'm high, I'll get to the point.

SPEAKER_05 40:27

Yeah, I don't remember the point.

SPEAKER_06 40:29

All right, what would we work on first?

SPEAKER_05 40:31

Okay, so for Gabrielle, I'd honestly start with emotional permission. What does closeness look like when you aren't earning it through sacrifice? What happens if people see your emotions directly? What what would it what what what would it what would it mean to let yourself be fully known? And from there we'd move into grief work, vulnerability, unresolved guilt, and learning that connection can exist without self-erasure.

SPEAKER_06 41:03

Okay, yeah. I think that's perfect for him.

SPEAKER_05 41:06

Thank you. Yeah, me too. If only he had a chance.

unknown 41:11

I know.

SPEAKER_06 41:13

Uh well, over here, I think the worst the worst thing. Yeah, that's the worst thing.

SPEAKER_05 41:20

What's the worst thing?

SPEAKER_06 41:22

I think the first thing we'd work on is separating his identity from the protector role. And then helping him recognize that loyalty and self-sacrifice are not the same thing.

SPEAKER_04 41:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 41:33

Because a lot of his worth is tied to what he's willing to give up for other people. That's so true. Loyalty and sac and self-sacrifice are not the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

No.

SPEAKER_06 41:44

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 41:45

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05 41:46

Think about like even in the book, Liam and his fucking dragon. Mm-hmm. Like you know what's happening. They're both going down. It's like one of them went down. No, too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 42:01

This is so sad.

SPEAKER_05 42:03

Is it? Is it so sad? That must be some counter-transference you're feeling.

SPEAKER_06 42:07

Yeah. I think so.

SPEAKER_05 42:10

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 42:11

That was brilliant.

SPEAKER_05 42:13

I think I'd feel really protective over Gabriel, just other than the fact that like I love him. But I'd also notice some sadness because there's this feeling with Gabrielle that he spent so much of his life standing near love instead of fully inside it. And I'd probably feel that urge to help him say the things he struggles to say out loud. But you know, it gotta come from him.

SPEAKER_06 42:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:36

But uh, I would I would struggle with that.

SPEAKER_06 42:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:40

What about you?

SPEAKER_06 42:42

Man, just saying things out loud, like even I'm thinking about like when we do our work, right? Like there's so many times people think things and when they say it out loud, you see them like pause for a moment and they're like, Oh. And I'm like, Yeah, sometimes you need to say things out loud to really hear how it sounds.

SPEAKER_05 43:00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 43:01

You know? Um, it's like when we used to have people re write those letters to themselves and then have them read it. And have them read it out loud and they'd be like, Oh god, really? Yeah, you need to hear what it sounds like. So yeah, I think that's really important for people who don't who do exactly what these two do. Like they don't have the moment to appreciate their own self-worth. Yeah. Um, so I think for me, I'd well I would be sad too, like I said before, but I think there'd be a lot of admiration for his loyalty and steadiness, but also a lot of grief watching someone who's so deeply valued by others never fully value himself outside of what he provides. Yeah. Exactly what we were just saying. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:43

And it's almost like because he's not because he didn't have any connections like that. It's like he it's not that he robbed himself, but you know, he's being robbed of feeling all the love that he's like such a good person that he Would if he was in like a different environment received so much love and he would have just been so fulfilled, and just uh and I think he would still sacrifice. Oh, I'm talking about Gabriel. My bad, but it kind of applies to yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 44:22

Sorry about it. That's alright. All right, what's nice?

SPEAKER_05 44:25

So, some interventions. Yes. Okay, so I would lean heavily into attachment work and grief processing, helping him tolerate emotional intimacy instead of retreating into action or protection, and helping him understand that being emotionally present can matter just as much as being physically protective. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 44:46

Yeah. Uh for Liam, a lot of the work here would focus on identity exploration, emotional processing, and challenging beliefs around worth and usefulness. And honestly, probably a lot of conversations around boundaries, responsibility, and the pressure that comes with always being the strong one. Yeah, yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 45:09

Yep. So hard truth. At some point, I'd probably say loving people quietly doesn't always let them feel loved. And waiting for the right time to be vulnerable can sometimes mean losing the chance altogether. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 45:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:28

And I think both of those are so so true.

SPEAKER_06 45:31

Like I was live literally did not make it to do any of that. Yeah. It's crazy. Like I would swear by these. Like same. Yeah. Yeah. So for Liam, the hard truth is that constantly sacrificing yourself for everyone else doesn't make you invincible. And being needed by people is not the same thing as being emotionally cared for.

SPEAKER_05 45:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 45:55

Yeah. So y'all out there listen too.

SPEAKER_05 45:58

Yeah, because you can be sacrificing all the time, all the time, all the time. And that just becomes like, oh, she does this for me. Like people don't even realize because you're doing it possibly silently, you know, you don't even get the credit. Not that you need the credit, but like it just becomes a personality trait. And then people are expecting you to do this. I think you can love someone quietly, but that's not you know, if they don't know it, everybody's out here getting robbed.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:34

Because then you'll never know how no, but I can't say that because I was gonna say you'll never know how like they feel and how they whatever, because if someone is loving me and like showing me love and I want to reciprocate that, I'm going to. But again, some people need those labels, you know, and not even romantically, but you know, they're like, That's not my best friend. I'm not about to do this for her, you know. Like, I don't know him that well. Just like me, like how my mom's going to Brooklyn later um to go see this baby. And I was like, I'm not meeting y'all there because I don't know that baby. Like, I just I don't know the baby. Why would I go?

SPEAKER_06 47:12

Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. No, I get that. I get that.

SPEAKER_05 47:16

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 47:16

Um, all right, well, let's bring it back to real life.

SPEAKER_05 47:20

Okay. So I bet people can connect with Gabrielle. Mm-hmm. Like Lee. Oh my goodness. Yeah. I just saw, oh, Vibes Cartel. I don't know the situation, so I'm not sure how this all played out, but like he just met his one of his daughters for the first time, and she's like older. She's like not super old, but you know, she's a big girl now. Like probably in her t 12s or 13s, like early 20s.

unknown 47:51

In her 12s.

SPEAKER_05 47:52

You got more than one twelve. I got more than one twelves upstairs. Doom cha. Um, no, anyway. But whatever. Like, just see, thank you. But just seeing that it's like people can relate to that because people meet their kids later on in life. Some people don't know that they have children. Yeah. Because a lot of people have relationships where love exists but isn't always spoken. And sometimes people spend years trying to protect others emotionally without realizing the thing people wanted most was simply to feel close to them.

SPEAKER_06 48:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:29

Sometimes that's what's really important. And going back again to his relationship with his son, you know? Oh man, that's so sad. I hate when shit like that happens. In movies, whatever, like when somebody meets their kid for the first time and they don't even get time to spend with each other. Cause like um Spencer in All Americans.

SPEAKER_05 48:51

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_06 48:52

It's like the same shit.

SPEAKER_05 48:53

It's the same thing.

SPEAKER_06 48:55

Yeah. Ugh, anyway.

SPEAKER_05 48:59

That broke my heart. I know.

SPEAKER_06 49:01

Okay. Um, well, I think a lot of people relate to Liam because society praises self-sacrifice constantly. People get rewarded for overextending themselves, carrying everyone else emotionally, and never slowing down. But eventually that role becomes exhausting and isolating. It sure does. Yeah. It sure does. And like exhausting is not even the word. Because imagine doing that all the time. And you there's no boundaries, right? Because now people are like going to expect it from you. So you know, you're gonna have to do it and take that out.

SPEAKER_05 49:40

Even if you think about it like zoom out even further, right? And think about how, like, in the military, your job is to serve, yeah, you know, and protect people and sacrifice yourself if need be. You know, like that's exactly what you're doing. So every time you get deployed, every time you get a new assignment, every time whatever, like you're expected to just do that. One, because that's what you signed up for, right? But two, it's because you you swore an oath and you said, like, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna defend people.

SPEAKER_02 50:13

Blood oath.

SPEAKER_05 50:14

Yeah, pretty much a blood oath, yes. But yeah, so it's expected of you. So then I wonder if, and I know that this isn't what the topic is about necessarily, but it's it just makes me think, like, is there a difference between like when you do something and people are expecting you to make that sacrifice versus you make this brave heroic sacrifice? Like what I said in the beginning, not one sacrifice is better than the other, but it makes you think, like, what would you rather do? Like make one grand gesture or like be that person that constantly sacrifices.

SPEAKER_04 50:51

Right.

SPEAKER_05 50:52

Because for yourself, how much does it mean? It doesn't matter how much it means to I don't mean like to that person because you're sacrificing for them, so they're hopefully appreciative. Right. But for you, like how do you feel about it? Do you feel like it's a sacrifice only when it's a big gesture, or that's a good point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 51:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:11

It's just food for thought. Yeah, or thought.

SPEAKER_06 51:13

Also, like back also like coming back to the topic, like I mean, fallen warriors, right? These I'm sure a lot of these people sacrificed, like you said, because you're in the military and that's the expectation, right? It it was a sacrifice. I remember I asked you, like uh because I I don't know, I was just thinking about it one time when you were talking about it, and I was like, Oh my god, I wonder how she felt that she like made it back home. Because like you go there, you probably go there like expecting to die, like not to sound crazy, right? Because there's so much going on. But uh yeah, I was like, Oh my god, I never like asked you, like I think you go there, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:54

You go there accepting that you might not come back. Okay, and I think that's how I looked at it. I was like, you know what? I might not come back, and it's radical acceptance here. But I wasn't like, oh, I just know I'm gonna die. I didn't feel like that. Okay, but I bet people probably felt like that about me, like the people who didn't understand how I could be in the army and they're like battlefield Barbie.

SPEAKER_06 52:21

How did you get through boot camp? What the hell? They're like a bulletone no beauty shit, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:26

Yeah, no, the gas chamber all over. The gas chamber is horrible. That's a horrible experience.

SPEAKER_06 52:32

I can't even gross. Why were we talking about that? I don't know. Something happened.

SPEAKER_05 52:36

You were flapping your wings or something like that.

SPEAKER_06 52:38

Somebody was doing something, and you were like, Oh god, they're coughing about this. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:44

Oh, when at my job. Oh yeah. At my job, someone was like out of control in the front, like in the front lobby area. So the police what do you call that? They maced the front lobby because the guy was out of control. And then we got this email saying, like, be aware, beware, be aware. Beware. Be wary, be kind, be true. What book is that from? Come on, come on, come on.

SPEAKER_06 53:12

Be wary, be kind, be true.

SPEAKER_05 53:14

It sounds like one book, but it's from the other book, and it's from the author who makes you think that it's that one book, but it's not one dark window. See, that's the book that it makes you think it is, but it's the night in the moth. Oh yeah, yes. But I think that's what it is. But it's be wary, be oh, or is it the whatever?

SPEAKER_06 53:34

It's one of them. Read those two.

SPEAKER_05 53:36

Yeah, both of them. Both bomb.

SPEAKER_06 53:38

All three of them, actually. Um, okay, hello, or what were you just doing?

SPEAKER_05 53:42

Oh, yeah, but no, they whatever, they maced the place. They maced the place, and then people were walking out and they're like coffin, and it wasn't that bad. And I was like, fucking half of y'all walked through the gas chambers. Like, I don't know, whatever.

SPEAKER_06 53:54

Yeah, no, that's funny. Yeah, it's not funny, but you know what I meant.

SPEAKER_05 53:58

It was hilarious.

SPEAKER_06 53:59

Well, you can say that because you went through the gas chamber, so that's fine. Yeah. All right, it's time for the pain and the plot.

SPEAKER_05 54:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 54:10

Right, go.

SPEAKER_05 54:11

Alright, so the moment when Gabrielle seals the gate during the final battle in Tarrasen.

SPEAKER_06 54:20

I'm not doing this. You can't. Choosing to stay behind.

SPEAKER_05 54:24

You're doing it.

SPEAKER_06 54:25

I'm covering my ears.

SPEAKER_05 54:27

Choosing to stay behind and fight others. Listen, he's choosing to stay behind and fight so the others can survive, knowing he may not make it back. That moment. Oh my god, the pain in that moment.

SPEAKER_06 54:43

My heart is hurting throat.

SPEAKER_05 54:46

Finally beginning to reconnect emotionally with Adian, realizing how much time was lost between them, choosing protection over personal survival, believing love is proven through sacrifice, fear that vulnerability came too late, dying in the middle of finally allowing connection. The shift. Gavriel moves from emotional restrained protector to openly self-sacrificial father. Years of guarded distance collapse into one final act of love. The emotional wall between him and Adian finally breaks, but only at the end. So the plot. Gavriel dies protecting Terracine during the war. Adian is left carrying both grief and unresolved reconciliation. His death becomes symbolic of loyalty, redemption, and paternal love, which is true. The sacrifice changes how Adien understands both his father and himself moving forward. He really waited until the apocalypse to start to start emotional communication. But I want to check in now because I have something to say about this. So if the pain was worth the plot. Time for vulnerability, and time for a real father-son relationship.

unknown 56:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:11

But if he dies, which he does, his final act becomes unforgettable. Like we gotta take this into consideration. The love finally becomes undeniable when Adrian struggled so long not knowing anything. And now he can rest easy and be like, my dad loved me.

SPEAKER_06 56:30

My dad loved me.

SPEAKER_05 56:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 56:32

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:33

And the grief reshapes everyone left behind. So they might be closer. They might like really bond, which, like I said, him and Lysandra maybe wouldn't have gotten this close. Sorry. If it wasn't for this, so it's like, I hate that I'm about to say it. Yeah. But the pain was worth the plot.

SPEAKER_06 56:49

I know. I don't want it to be. Yeah. Yeah. It was. You're right. Yeah. You're right. Sometimes it's surrendered again.

unknown 57:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 57:02

But you know, I it's a good way you put the spin on it. Because, like, yeah, he knew his dad loved him. Because he made the ultimate sacrifice.

SPEAKER_01 57:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 57:10

Okay. So for Liam, the moment. The moment for me is when Liam died while protecting Violet during the final battle. Instinctively putting her safety above his own survival without hesitation. Like I have never seen a without hesitation soul without hesitation. Just no no thought.

SPEAKER_05 57:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 57:36

Um, the pain, identity rooted in protecting others, instinctive self-sacrifice, overriding self-preservation, believing his role is to keep everyone else safe. If something happens to me instead, at least they survive. Ugh. The shifts? Shared responsibility in battle instead of Liam carrying the burden alone. Liam prioritizes survival alongside protection, and he allows himself to believe his life matters too. I would love that. The plot, Liam survives and continues as an emotional anchor within the group. Violet retains guidance, safety, and emotional support. The group dynamic develops differently without the devastating loss. Liam begins building an identity beyond sacrifice and survival. So he didn't even think about himself for a second. And honestly, that's what hurts.

SPEAKER_01 58:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 58:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:29

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 58:31

You know? Was the pain worth the plot? No, I want I would have wanted him to be alive. So he could beat the shit out of his rude ass little sister.

SPEAKER_05 58:41

Yeah, but she probably wouldn't have been so rude if he was alive, but she might have still been Braddy. Yeah. But I don't know. It's one of those things like I wonder if because we didn't know Liam that well. Right. You know, and Liam was the one with um Jacenya. He was learning um ASL.

unknown 59:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 59:00

You know what's crazy? Is that today we're talking about Jacenya now and her ASL. And then the show I was watching this morning, that same show, I was looking at it the whole time. I'm like, I know this girl from the show. I know her. I know her. And then it was the girl from the um the show that switched at birth. When they're deaf, the sister is deaf.

SPEAKER_06 59:27

I never saw come on, you know this.

SPEAKER_05 59:30

Well, whatever. And they had to do sign language in the show. And then I was telling Bleep how like I really want to perfect sign language so that I can we sign up for a class.

SPEAKER_06 59:43

We did sign up for a class. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 59:46

But I was like, so I so the so that I can provide therapy and and um sign. So that's what I'm saying. The universe is like I'm getting threes everything, like two or threes, but mostly three. I'm in alignment.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:03

You're in alignment.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:04

Listen, call me now for your free alignment.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:08

Hey, can I get a free alignment? No. Yes, actually. Alright, what is it? Do it now for the people so they can hear and be honest.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:18

I don't even know what an alignment is. I feel like I'm just in alignment with the universe.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:24

Don't call me now.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:25

Didn't you hear me? I said, call me now. Miss Cleo was a fraud. Yeah. I mean Miss Bleeplope was a fraud. Can she less? She is she alive? Yeah, she just did like a documentary or something. Or I just watched it.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:40

But she's still alive now? Oh, she was never old. She just had a turban. She was a fraud.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:46

Well, I don't think it's a turban. It's she had a head wrap.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:51

Yeah, but oh.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:53

So maybe that made her look older in the way she I guess. I'm also imagining the That's olen um episode where she was doing it. And that's the thing that I was imagining. I don't even remember what Miss Cleo's head looked like.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:07

Okay, that's fine. How do we get here? Okay, is it time for chaos? We started early. It's time for chaos.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:14

Hold on. It must be time for chaos.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:17

Okay. Mini fun segment.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:21

Okay, this one is simple but dangerous.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:23

I already don't like it.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:25

Okay, so was it worth it?

SPEAKER_06 1:01:26

Oh right.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:27

Sacrificing yourself to save others. And we're thinking about it like in the books, like the books that we've read, like for all of them, right? Like just any random book? Yeah. Yeah, like has it ever really been worth it sacrificing yourself to save others?

SPEAKER_06 1:01:45

Um, no, I never think it would.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:49

It is because you're an only child.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:51

That exactly, that's why. So yeah. But yeah, in theory, yes, it is worth it to sacrifice yourself to save others because that's what our veterans do all the time.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:01

Yeah, but when we're reading the books and then it's like okay, if they didn't sacrifice themselves, these people wouldn't be here, but they wouldn't be here to grieve you either, because you would all not been here. And I think that's one of those survivors remorse things that you feel not just in the military, but just like in life, well, we're talking about fall warriors, let's keep it like you know, in the military you feel like, like you said, how does it feel that I came home? There was a lot of that, okay, but he didn't come home. And I wouldn't know that unless I did come home. Yeah. You know, so there's there has to be that guilt.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:37

Yeah. Okay.

unknown 1:02:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:43

All right. Choosing duty over personal happiness. I mean, I think sometimes I do choose duty over personal happiness.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:51

I don't like it at all.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:53

I hate it. Duty meaning our jobs.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:55

We were talking about that today, or was it yesterday? The day's blur at that building in that hospital. But when we were like, um, whatever. When I was like, I just want to go home. And you were like, I want to just only be doing once upon a session stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:10

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:14

Okay, protecting people who don't fully understand you.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:17

No, it's not worth it.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:21

But I get, I get it at the same time.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:24

Yeah, so like think about Jon Snow, how he was protecting people. They didn't really understand what he was doing with the I almost called them the younglings, with the wildlings, you know, in their eyes, they were the enemy. And it's like you're put you're protecting people who don't fully understand you. Like the Wildlings didn't really trust him either, but he found a way to protect them.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:44

Like, I don't know, like sometimes it's valid, but yeah, and that's I I'm I'm saying no because I'm thinking of like real life. Yeah. Sorry, I'm not thinking of the characters, but it's fine. We're mixing it up here. But yes, I think in that situation, yes. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:06

All right, making the right decision even if it costs you everything. Well, I don't know. Let me see. The right decision wouldn't cost me everything, though. I don't know. Like I'm trying to think of a scenario.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:23

Yeah, because if it's because if it costs you everything, then it's not the right decision.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:28

But like in the book.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:31

No, well, see, now I'm thinking about in real life. Because I'm thinking about like, okay, going back to the psych ward. That's costing me my promotion, but it's not everything because that's where I'm happier. Yeah. And then it's a detail, so it didn't technically cost the promotion. But you know what I mean. Like my status.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:56

Sorry, I don't know why I'm kicking you.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:58

No, you're fine. Kick me all you won't. Oh my god. Sometimes I need a good kicking butt.

unknown 1:05:03

Oops.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:04

So sorry. I didn't even see it. Ow, my knee. I didn't know your knee was so close. I was gonna be like, whoops, like that. Ow, my knee. Staying loyal to a system that doesn't protect you back.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:18

No, never worth it.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:22

In real life, take on responsibility that was never yours to carry. I hate it.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:30

Hey, oh yeah, I can help. No, I'm never saying that. Right. Except for when that guy dropped his cane in front of me yesterday, and I was like, Well, I'm in the front of the building. If I walk past him, it's like I'm gonna look horrible. But you know, like that, I hate that I had that thought because I was gonna pick it up anyway. But then I'm like, what motivated me? Because you know, I'm always thinking another step. Like, yeah, what would happen if I didn't do it? But that doesn't mean I didn't want to do it.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:57

You're thinking I would love to live in your brain. Because your thinking is so fascinating to me. Like I trigger think, you know what I mean? So like I would love to see what it's like for someone to take your their time thinking. But it's anxiety prime. Um, all right, where are we? Being the strong one so everyone else can fall apart. That's not worth it to me.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:25

I think only in maybe if it's a sibling situation and something happens and you're just like, okay, let me just do this so that they can be okay, but not on a daily, no.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:37

Yeah. Wow, my only childness is so bad. Because I'm just no, I don't care about anybody and anything and fuck them all. Just kidding. I care about a lot of things and like three people.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:50

Not asking for help because you think you should be able to handle it. Is it worth it?

SPEAKER_06 1:06:58

Um I think sometimes personally I need that. Like, I need to not ask for help and figure it out on my you know, so like I think it's okay. Keeping people safe at the expense of your own well-being. No.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:16

I think that is sacrifice though, right? Yeah, that is like what we're saying when we're talking about these people in their books, in our books, right? And like, oh, we're talking about real life. Sorry, go ahead. I keep thinking we're talking about books.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:29

No, it's okay. We can talk about both. I mean, people in the books, they have to do like they do it.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:35

That's what makes it up.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:36

Yeah, exactly. But like and it's worth it for them, I suppose. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:42

But for us, I don't think so, because if you're you put on your mask first, right? That's what they always say, your oxygen mask first. Like, how much of a help are you gonna be to someone else? Like, this is a one-time thing. You teach a man how to fish or whatever, right? Then he can feed his family forever. Yeah, you know, you can't just fish for him. So I feel like if you're just you know, fishing for him. Right. Because okay, my point is that like if you if it's at the cost of your well-being, then what if you're not able to sacrifice that again and they don't know how to get themselves out of it?

SPEAKER_06 1:08:16

You know, I agree. I agree with that.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:17

So you're just fishing instead of teaching. Right. Yeah. Choosing silence instead of expressing what you need.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:23

No, that's never worth it. Never worth it.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:26

Yep. Wow, Jinx.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:27

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:28

Glad you agreed.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:30

Uh believing your value comes from what you're willing to endure.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:37

A lot of relationships are like that when you think you're staying with someone because of this and that, and everybody bobbing it.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:45

Yeah. It's not it's never worth it though.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:49

No, right.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:56

Continuing to show up for people who don't fully show up for you.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:00

Not worth it.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:02

Because they're constantly telling you what you need to know.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:07

Yeah. Putting the mission, the goal, or the role above your own identity.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:17

This is tough.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:18

That's a tough one because like sometimes that's your job, and you're saying it. Yeah. So yeah, it might be worth it. I think it's worth it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:30

Accepting loss as part of the job instead of something in the process. That's what I was just talking about. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:40

Yeah. It is what it is.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:42

Sometimes it's worth it, I think. Sometimes it's necessary, like you said. Yeah. Yeah. But not always.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:49

Not always, no. Know yourself, know your worth.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:53

Okay. So the next mini game. Yeah. Fallen warrior or unprocessed trauma? Because it's not the same.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:00

Yeah. Alright.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:02

Are they a fallen warrior or just someone who never learned they didn't have to carry everything alone?

SPEAKER_06 1:10:07

That's actually rude.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:12

So So we're picking either Fallen Warrior or Unprocessed Trauma. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:18

So this is a quick rapid fire. Rapid fire. Quick fire. The one who always sacrifices themselves first. Fallen Warrior or unprocessed trauma?

SPEAKER_06 1:10:30

I'm gonna go with Fallen Warrior.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:33

I'll say unprocessed trauma because you're always sacrificing yourself first. Like, what do you do you have a death wish? You know, like you got something coming up.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:44

Yeah, okay, that's very true. The one who never asks for help. That's unprocessed trauma.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:49

Yeah, same. The one who takes responsibility for everyone else's survival. I think fallen warrior. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:58

The one who suppresses emotion to stay focused.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:04

I think it could be both, but I'm more of a fallen warrior. Yeah, same.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:08

Same. Um sorry.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:11

The one who believes pain is just part of their role.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:14

That's unprocessed trauma.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:16

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:17

Yeah. The one who keeps going no matter how much they've lost. That's both.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:23

That's definitely both. And that's like a for me, that's an even hybrid. It's like even.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:31

An even hybrid.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:33

A half indica half sativa. Okay. The one who isolates instead of leaning on others. Unprocessed. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Unprocessed trauma.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:46

The one who feels safest when they're needed. Unprocessed trauma.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:52

Yeah. The one who confuses being strong with being alone.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:57

Who confuses that?

SPEAKER_06 1:12:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:02

Oh, well, I guess. I guess someone could be like, oh, aren't you sad being alone? And they're like, no, I'm strong. No, I don't know. I don't know that one.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:12

Yeah, I don't know that one either. Fallen Warrior.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:15

That that question was a fallen warrior.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:17

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Oh shit. Um the one who doesn't think they deserve to rest. Maybe fallen warrior, but I think both. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:31

The one who sees vulnerability as a liability. That's maybe both.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:37

Unprocessed trauma. Yeah, both. Yeah, you're right. The one who keeps proving themselves even after they already have, that's unprocessed trauma.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:47

And then it could also be the, you know, the person with unprocessed trauma is a fallen warrior as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:55

So it's a spectrum.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:57

The one who stays in survival mode even when the danger is past. The PDSD.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:04

Yeah, exactly. That's the unprocessed PTSD. Yeah. Alright. And finally, the one who doesn't realize they're allowed to choose themselves. That's unprocessed drama. Yeah. Oh, I like those.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:18

Yeah. That's really weird. You know, um, I like this one because it kind of, I don't know if it's exp it's on purpose, but it kind of feels like a slight segue into our next one because it's like they're the ones who don't realize they're allowed to choose themselves because the class clown is always putting on for the crowd, putting on for other people to make them feel better. Okay, so next week we're talking about the people who make everyone laugh.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:45

But the question is Are they actually funny or are they coping?

SPEAKER_05 1:13:50

We're breaking down humor as a defense mechanism.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:52

And the people who hide behind it best. Alright, well, thanks for coming back. Wait, was there a takeaway from Fallen Warrior? We forgot to give our own personal show here. I feel like listen, just it's okay to sacrifice, but just remember your boundaries.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:15

Is it too much if we just do like a quick like top three Fallen Warriors?

SPEAKER_06 1:14:20

Oh, you want to do honorable mention? Like an honorable mention? Yeah, okay. Jon Snow.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:25

The funny thing with Jon Snow is that like where we are in the book, actually, because you know George George George of the George R Martin.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:34

George.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:34

George of the George R. R. Martin. George of the George R.R. Martin.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:39

George R R Martin.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:41

So he like he hasn't completed the books yet. So like what we saw on HBO, that is not the actual ending. Right. So where we actually are with Jon Snow in the book, though, is that he was left by his men. Like they, you know how they killed him and he resurrected?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:59

Um, or Melison. Yeah. Whatever. Misson, you know, the bread lady. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:05

The old lady.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:06

Sorry, I know you keep saying yes because you get it, but like I needed to fucking process. So anyway, um, that didn't happen in the book. Like, that's just a show thing. So we don't know if Jon Snow is dead or not. But his men left him there. Like, right. But okay, so I have some some people that I want to honorably mention.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:25

I couldn't think of any.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:26

Okay, the 13. Hello. Probably one of the most emotionally devastating sacrificial deaths in romanticy. Um La Haba.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:37

Oh, yeah. La Haba. Yeah. Um, Sam Cortland. Oh my god. He's a fallen warrior. Sam Nahemia. Literally Mia.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:50

Oh my god. I forgot.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:51

Yeah, the surreal.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:53

Oh yeah. Sterling.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:54

Serious Black. Serious. Fucking Fred Weasley. Oh. Death during victory. That was emotional whiplash. Oh god. Oh my god. Rue. You remember I talked about Rue in that episode about the. Yes. Yeah. Um.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:11

Oh.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:13

Oh my god. O'Brien Martel?

SPEAKER_06 1:16:15

Yeah. Little Michael Drogo. No, but he didn't sacrifice.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:19

No, but Ned Stark.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:21

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:22

The ultimate though, I think, in Game of Thrones for me is Hodor.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:26

Yeah.

unknown 1:16:27

Oh.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:28

Yeah. Protective sacrifice that destroyed everyone emotionally. Oh my god, don't be. Everyone. Don't be. Yes. What about Anakin? Hello? Did we say Anakin?

SPEAKER_06 1:16:39

No, we did not, but.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:41

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:42

Yep. Damn.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:45

So listen, everyone, from Gabrielle to La Java to Liam to Fred Weasley, some characters don't just die. They leave emotional fingerprints all over the story. Yeah. All over it. It sucks. R.I.P.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:03

then. R.I.P.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:04

R I.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:04

R.I.P. all our fallen warriors. Yes. Thank you for the ultimate sacrifices. Without you, the story wouldn't be what it would be.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:15

Yeah. Yeah. Damn.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:19

Damn. Alright, well, that's it. That's it. Sorry, we're about to walk us up. So we're gonna end it on a good note. Alright, that's it for this session. See you next week.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:31

We want you to be a part of the book world. We want you to be a part of this world with us. Send us your book recommendations, character obsessions, or topics you want us to cover.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:41

And part of the book world.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:43

You can find us on Instagram and TikTok at once upon a session pod.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:48

Or email us at info at once upon a session pod session.

unknown 1:17:53

Fuck.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:54

I was so confident. I was about to say, I don't even trip no more. Oh my god. Or email us at info at onceupona session pod dot com if you want to share thoughts, suggestions, or just scream about a plot twist with us.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:09

That's a sacrifice I've had to make multiple times. Is hearing you get through that?

SPEAKER_05 1:18:13

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:14

And I'm here for it. You're welcome. We're not charging for this session because it's Memorial Day weekend and it's free. So send send all the monies to the veterans. Donate money to the veterans.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:30

Yeah. Vanessa Carter at email.com.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:34

And the families who've lost their fallen warriors.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:38

Don't send anything to Vanessa.carter at email.com because that's not me. I was joking.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:43

Vanessa dot carter at email.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:46

That's what I said. But at email. No, I was putting in someone's email on their um paperwork in the in the at work. And it just said at mail.com. And I was like, oh, that's cool. Like, do you I would have just naturally thought at gmail at something, but it's just at mail.com. Wow. Never heard of her.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:07

Never heard. Yeah. Remember on those discharge instructions when you put patient will return home to his mother's.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:16

Oh my god, he was such a baby.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:18

Yeah, that was such a baby.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:20

She didn't really put that, she deleted it, but it was jokesy. Remember that one therapist who made like 10 copies of the discharge instructions?

SPEAKER_05 1:19:28

Oh my god, she's still waiting. She's still waiting. Where is she waiting? Do I still have her text message? Stop because I still have her text message. No, she no, you no, I'm about to tell you because I still have the text message.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:43

You do, but we had texted her many many years later. Oh, I text her, yeah. So she just responded like nothing happened. Like, hello, ma'am, you weren't gonna tell us, you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:55

I text her back. I said, How did it go with HR? After she was like, I'm just waiting to talk to HR years after. So I randomly put How did it go with HR?

SPEAKER_06 1:20:06

We were drunk one day and we remember that and we just were like This was back in 2023. Oh, she's a fallen warrior.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:13

Not like in real life, no, but she's a fallen warrior of the job.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:17

Of the job.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:17

You know who else was sad to see them go? Some other fallen warriors of that job. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:23

When um Andrew when she left.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:27

That was I was sad.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:28

Andreen's at where I am now. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_05 1:20:32

Oh, that's good. Yeah. I love that. Remember, remember going to her wedding?

SPEAKER_06 1:20:36

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:37

We were like so fucking cool.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:39

I was just talking about that because the girls in the front were like, Oh, yeah, Andrew was at the holiday party. I said Andrew? Like Andrew and Andrew? And then I was like, Would you show them a wedding picture of her? No, no, no, no. They we all have our photos like on Teams or whatever. I'm like, this is her. And I was like, oh my god, my best friend and I were at her wedding and we were so cool.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:02

That was so crazy how like I just invited myself to her wedding.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:06

I know. She didn't care.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:07

I no, I told her I was inviting myself. It's not like it crashed it.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:11

No, I'm saying, but she didn't care.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:12

Yeah, and she had so much fun, and like I made her wedding so fun for us.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:15

Yeah, it did.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:16

That was a and I really remember the next morning when you're when your heel was hanging over your back rear view mirror. Or not back rear view.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:26

My rear view mirror, my shoe.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:29

Because then we had to get like oil or something the next day. It was a weird day, or a tire change. So drunk. We were so drunk. Wow. Seeing your heels hanging from the rear view was such a fucking funny thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:43

Because we were like, what the hell happened last night?

SPEAKER_06 1:21:46

Yeah. That was when I had Jeep Nerese. Yeah. Jeep Nerese. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:53

That is also a fallen warrior. Oh. Jeep Nerese didn't make it.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:57

Jeep Nerese didn't make it.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:59

And neither did Nico from Honda Tanafly.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:07

That's so funny.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:09

Um, we were also very drunk that day, too.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:12

Wait, wait, congratulations to us. One year without alcohol. Oh yeah. Yay us. Let's go get drunk. Let's go get let's have an espresso martini, right? Oh my god, we're still talking. Bye, guys. Is this even on? If you stay for the end, if you stay till the end, you get a special prize. What? Can I have it? I'm starving.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:34

My special prize is food.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:35

All right, bye. Say bye to the people.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:37

Bye, people. Bye.

unknown 1:22:40

It was always Irene and Ellie.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:44

It's urine. Urine. I gotta go take sufferable. Bye. Bye.