Session 16: Daddy Issues- The Fathers Who Shape Us

Some of our earliest lessons about love, safety, and self-worth come from the people who raise us.

In this episode, we explore the psychology of the father wound through Klaus Mikaelson from The Vampire Diaries and Dorian Havilliard from Throne of Glass. We unpack how control, rejection, fear, and impossible expectations can shape identity, relationships, and the ways people learn to survive.

Because sometimes the hardest part isn’t understanding where our wounds came from—it’s deciding what happens next.

Disclaimer: We’re licensed therapists, but not your therapists. This podcast is for reflection and conversation, not a substitute for therapy.

✨ Follow Once Upon a Session for new episodes exploring stories, psychology, and healing.

Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:12

Grief is weird because sometimes it hits you all at once. And sometimes it waits until a random Tuesday at 2 p.m. Over a smell, a song, a memory, or the realization that life kept moving after something changed you forever. And honestly, some grief never fully leaves you. You just learn how to carry it. Yeah. This is Once Upon a Session, where two therapists turn their TBR pile into treatment plans, and every story becomes a session. I'm Vanessa. And I'm Nerisa. And I'm the one who says I'm fine and then gets emotionally humbled by one sad scene in a book. Once the veneer line this week, I'm fine. And I'm the one who holds it together until one tiny thing somehow ruins my entire emotional stability. That is so me. Yeah. Alright, just a quick note before we dive in. We're both licensed therapists, but we're not your therapists. Everything we share here is for conversation, reflection, and maybe a little inspiration. But it's not a substitute for therapy. If you're struggling, please reach out to a mental health professional who can give you the care and support you deserve. Now that you're all checked in, have a seat on our couch. Hello. Welcome back. Welcome. Hello, buddy.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

It's horrible. I'm going to back school, actually. Oh, are you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:40

Oh, yeah, you told me. Back school. Why do they call it? It's such a like a professional back school.

SPEAKER_05 1:47

I'm going back.

SPEAKER_06 1:49

When I graduate from back school, I get to go to Lottie's. Oh, nice. You're going to back school and you're going back to school. Wow, look at you. Alright, well, what's going on? Hello, people. Thanks for coming back.

SPEAKER_03 2:02

Hi, welcome back. Thanks for coming back. We love you.

SPEAKER_06 2:07

Yeah, we love y'all for being here through all the madness. Yeah. Alright. Well, what's going on?

SPEAKER_04 2:14

Yeah. What's going on with me?

SPEAKER_06 2:18

Yeah, work, life, reading.

SPEAKER_04 2:20

Work is good. Life is good. Reading is gonna get better. I've just been busy because I just got a new bed. So, like, you know, just putting the bed again. That was a great experience.

SPEAKER_06 2:34

Was it? It's a nice bed.

SPEAKER_04 2:37

Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 2:37

Nice and big.

SPEAKER_04 2:38

Um, and yeah, I'm reading Cachio e Pepe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:42

And I'm not, yeah. I'm somewhere in the book. Okay. And it's going good. That's fine. That just means she's a little behind. Yeah, but I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, that's alright. Um, I don't know, yeah. Your your bed is big enough for Faye Warriors now. Yes. Yeah. So Hunt Ethelar and Cassian, whatever your last name is. Does he have a last name? We hope you're listening. Well, we'll find out soon because we're about to read Avatar or something. Isn't that your vampires?

SPEAKER_05 3:16

No.

SPEAKER_06 3:17

Damn Salvatore. No, I thought Cassian's last name was like Cassian. I don't know. We're gonna find out because we're gonna read Aquatar next. Oh, yes, yes, you're right, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Okay, nice.

SPEAKER_06 3:32

Uh, what's going on with me? Well, we talked this morning about how I wanted to or I was considering like supervising LMSWs, but I felt like I don't know. I always feel like I'm I don't have enough skills. But yeah, clearly do I'm fine, it's fine. Yeah, now who's doing it. Yeah. Um, so I'm gonna finally look into that.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 3:58

So that'll be good. Um, life thing. Well, I have this goal now that I need to slow down because I am triggering this, yeah, as you call me. Yeah, so I've just been trying to slow everything down and do things with intention and just enjoy them in the moment. Because I feel like I always want to rush through things so I can just relax. Yeah, but I can also relax while I'm doing the things that I'm trying to rush through, so it's not like you know, it's not that serious, so yeah. Oh, what am I reading? Yeah, Cachuay Pipe. Um, yeah, I'm on that. So much further along, I bet. Well, maybe a little bit. I don't know where you well, you don't know where you are. Just kidding. Yeah, but um yeah, I'm moving along. I'm on that long strip of Empire Storms, and there's a lot of action going on right now because like Ailen is with everybody, and Lysandra was just the C Yvern, and then like Aiden had to save her. Oh my god, and Gabrielle met his son. Weren't we just talking about Gabrielle last time? Yeah, yeah, Gabrielle met his son, and that's a lot going on.

SPEAKER_05 5:20

It's so much, but you know, we love it, we love it, we love it.

SPEAKER_06 5:25

And we were talking about how we're excited to read Avatar, yeah, being ready to read it. Yeah, just going back there and having that experience again. So yeah, yeah. Okay, baby boop. Alright, so yeah, let's get into our grief. Our grief question.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 5:45

Okay, so what's something people say about grief that actually annoys you? So I recently lost my cat. I don't well you know, the people don't know. Um, we had to put my cat down, and uh, something that was really annoying was people just saying, like, oh, it was just a cat. And I'm like, okay, to you it was just a cat, but like to me it was everything to my family, he was everything. So just that was just like weird. It's really annoying. It is, it's so rude, and it's almost like you don't even want to use your energy to correct them because then it's like you're taken away from your grieving process. Yeah, exactly. And like I have stopped trying to explain myself to people who don't have pets and don't get it because you're just not gonna get it, and then also like, oh well, it's already been whatever, it's already that happened long ago. Long ago for who? Yeah, it was just two months ago, you know. So yeah, so those are some things that yeah that have annoyed me recently. Um, I I just realized the date, it's June 6th. My grandmother passed away on this date. So it's been several years now. I was in the middle of school, I think I was in like seventh grade. So I just realized the date. So talking about grief. Yeah, here we are. My grandma, she looks precious and I love her.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 7:24

All right. Well, what's one thing you wish people understood better about grieving? I wish people understood that it's not just something you do, like it's not just like a task that you complete, it's more of a process that you go through and you find a way to grieve whatever it is, whoever it is, and you just kind of always do it. It's just it becomes a practice and you just kind of grieve through life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:56

Yeah, and I think you were saying, like, just because you look like you're just carrying on with your everyday stuff, it doesn't mean like you're fine and you're not still grieving because there's moments, like there's random moments now where I like just start crying, you know.

SPEAKER_06 8:12

Um, I'll see something and it'll remind me, and it's a lot. Yeah, I agree with you. Okay, all right, emotional damage acknowledged. Yes, let's get into today's session. Today we're talking about grief, and not just grief after death, but grief in all the forms people experience loss. We're talking about grieving people, relationships, identities, routines, versions of yourself, and the futures you thought you were going to have, and that's exactly what I was gonna say. Like we also grieve other things, yeah, not just death.

SPEAKER_05 8:49

But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 8:50

Yeah. Grief is one of the most universal human experiences, but also one of the most misunderstood. A lot of people think grief is supposed to look linear, and that's back to what you were just saying, literally. Like there's a correct timeline, a right way to process it, or a point where you're supposed to be over it. But psychologically, grief doesn't work that way. Because grief isn't just sadness, it's your brain and body trying to adapt to loss. And loss creates disruption emotionally, physically, cognitively, and socially. People can experience exhaustion, numbness, anger, guilt, anxiety, brain fog, irritability, disassociation, difficulty concentrating, and even physical pain. Wow, that's a lot. Yeah, and one of the hardest parts about grief is that it often shows up unpredictably. A smell, a song, a date, a random memory, an empty seat, a routine you used to share.

SPEAKER_04 9:52

And suddenly your nervous system remembers before your brain can catch up. And grief isn't limited to death either, like we said.

SPEAKER_06 10:00

Yeah. People grieve divorces, friendships, ending, infertility, chronic illness, moving away, childhood wounds, losing pets, yeah, career changes, and losing versions of themselves after trauma. Yeah. It's us trying to be serious because we're talking about grief, and I'm gonna die laughing. Oh my god. Oh my god. Okay, and sometimes people struggle because the loss they're grieving isn't something society openly validates, which can create a lot of shame when someone feels devastated over something other people minimize. And grief can also become complicated when people feel unresolved emotionally. Like when there were things left unsaid, relationships that were complicated, or endings that never fully felt complete. And honestly, one of the biggest misconceptions about healing is that grief eventually disappears. Because a lot of healing isn't about moving on, it's about learning how to move forward while still carrying love, loss, memory, and change. Yeah, and I think that goes back to what you were saying also. Like you learn to move forward, but you don't ever move on. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Grief doesn't just ask you to lose something, it asks you to learn how to live differently afterward.

SPEAKER_05 11:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 11:25

Fiction is honestly built on grief. Because loss is usually the thing that changes the character permanently. A lot of stories start after something has already been lost. A parent, a home, innocence, safety, trust, identity, love. Something important is gone before the journey even begins. And what makes grief in fiction so powerful is that it forces characters to confront who they are after the loss. Because grief changes motivations, relationships, identity, coping skills, and sometimes entire moral compasses. Some characters become softer after grief. And some become colder, more avoidant, more reckless, more obsessive, or emotionally shut down. And a lot of fictional grief arcs aren't really about the loss itself. They're about what happens when characters try to survive after the loss. And fiction also does a really good job showing that grief doesn't always look dramatic. Sometimes it looks quiet, like avoidance, isolation, anger, humor, overworking, emotional numbness, self-destruction, or hyper-independence. Some of the most devastating moments in fiction are when a character realizes the version of their life they wanted is never coming back. And grief in stories becomes especially powerful when characters finally stop trying to outrun it. Because eventually every character reaches the moment where they have to decide whether grief is going to completely consume them.

SPEAKER_04 12:57

Or it becomes something they learn to carry.

unknown 13:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 13:01

My god, can you imagine? Like, just think of how many books we read were like somebody was grieving something. And how it just changed the course of the story, you know? Yeah. So powerful.

SPEAKER_04 13:14

Yeah, the loss changed the story. Oh wow, perfect.

SPEAKER_06 13:18

But how the character survives it changes who they become. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of that happens in Throne of Glass. Alright, let's get into it. Okay, who's sitting on your couch today? I am bringing Daenerys Targaryen from Game of Thrones. Wow, that's a good one. I'm bringing our girl, Diana Martinez, from the Gods and Monsters series. So basically, we chose two characters whose grief fundamentally changed the way they see themselves. Love people and survive. These two women right now, holy oh my god. Yeah. Oh my god. They've been through so much stuff.

SPEAKER_07 14:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 14:11

Alright, well, let's do it. So Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, first of her name, the unburnt queen of Marine, Queen of the Andals, and the First Men, Protector of the Seven Kingdoms, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Breaker of Chains, and Mother of Dragons.

SPEAKER_04 14:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 14:32

Alright, so Daenerys begins the story as a young girl who has already experienced profound loss before the audience even meets her. She grows up displaced, orphaned, emotionally isolated, and under the control of her abusive older brother Viserys, who constantly reminds her that her value exists only in what she can provide for him politically. When she's essentially traded into marriage with Cal Drogo, what initially feels like another form of exploitation slowly becomes the first place she experiences genuine connection, belonging, and love.

SPEAKER_04 15:07

For Daenerys, attachment is rare.

SPEAKER_06 15:09

Over time, she transforms from someone surviving powerlessness into someone determined to reclaim her power entirely. She frees enslaved people, builds armies, survives impossible circumstances, and becomes a symbol of hope to many. But alongside that, Rise is an almost constant pattern of grief. She loses her husband, her unborn child, her trusted advisors, friends, parts of her identity over and over again. Oh my god. And each loss changes her. What makes Daenerys such an interesting grief case is that her losses never happen in isolation. Every death becomes tied to responsibility, destiny, betrayal, or power. So instead of being allowed to grieve safely, she often has to immediately convert grief into action. And eventually that accumulation starts to matter psychologically. Oh my god. Because when someone experiences repeated trauma and loss without space to emotionally process it, grief doesn't just stay grief anymore. It becomes rage, it can become numbness, it can become obsession. And sometimes people start building identity around surviving it. So oh my god. As you were reading that, I just to put it into words, yeah. All the people that she's lost, yeah. And then never like she's just going from one thing to the next to the next, exactly like you're saying, and then you see the rage, right? Yeah, oh my god. Oh my god. Okay, sorry, keep going. So powerful.

SPEAKER_04 16:46

So Daenerys presents as resilient, idealistic, and deeply driven by meaning.

SPEAKER_06 16:52

From early on, she carries this intense need to create a world that feels different from the one that harmed her. And initially, that motivation feels rooted in empathy. She's highly responsive to suffering, especially because she knows what it feels like to be powerless. But psychologically, Daenerys is also someone whose identity becomes increasingly tied to being needed, chosen, and destined. That's important because her entire sense of self develops around surviving loss. She doesn't just lose people. She repeatedly loses safety, belonging, and the future she thought she was finally gonna have. And every time that happens, she adapts by becoming stronger, more powerful, and more emotionally armored. At first, that armor looks empowering, but over time it starts creating distance. One of the biggest themes with Daenerys is complicated grief. She experiences repeated traumatic losses with very little opportunity to process afterwards. Instead of slowing down to grieve, she usually has to lead, fight, conquer, or survive. And because of that, emotions that would normally be processed as sadness often become directed into purpose, control, or anger. Loss hits her intensely. And over time you start seeing that internal shift where trust becomes harder, emotional isolation increases, and the pressure of constantly carrying grief becomes collapsing into rigidity. Her core conflicts really become how do I stay compassionate after surviving so much pain? Because Daenerys genuinely wants to be loved and seen as good, but she also becomes increasingly terrified of vulnerability, betrayal, and losing control. So her presenting problems, unresolved traumatic grief, emotional isolation, fear of betrayal and abandonment, increasing rigidity and anger responses, identity tied to power and purpose, difficulty tolerating vulnerability, hyper responsibility, and savior complex. Core beliefs. If I stop being strong, I'll lose everything. Love is temporary. People eventually betray or abandon you. If I suffer enough, my purpose will justify it.

SPEAKER_04 19:03

So treatment goals and objectives, process unresolved grief, improve attachment security, separate identity from power, improve emotional regulation, and some interventions would be trauma-informed therapy, complicated grief therapy, attachment-based work, cognitive restructuring, emotional regulation, skill building, and identity exploration, some expected outcomes, um, increased emotional insight into grief patterns, improved tolerance for vulnerability and connection, reduced fear-based decision making, and healthier integration of loss and identity.

SPEAKER_06 19:41

That's a lot for her. What do you think like her biggest loss was? I think I answered that in the later on in the show. It's coming soon. Yeah. Coming soon the answer to that question. Wait for it. Okay, perfect. Alright. What do you think it is? Um, I'm torn between her dragon and Caldrogo. And her baby, I mean, but yeah. Caldrogo and the baby come as one.

SPEAKER_07 20:10

Oh my god, it was just so sad.

SPEAKER_06 20:13

I know, I know. And then remember when she like saw them in her dream? Something.

SPEAKER_04 20:18

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 20:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:19

It's like they were a family and baby spot.

SPEAKER_06 20:22

Yeah, that's so sad. Yeah. Yeah. Alright, well, speaking of sad, here we go. Grab your tissue. And I'm spoiling here, guys. So I've been asking you for the past six months to read Gods and Monsters. So I'm spoiling it now, and I don't care. Yeah, I love that. I'm sorry, I gave you time.

SPEAKER_05 20:42

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 20:43

Alright, Diana Martinez. She has a lot of titles too, but I don't know. Queen of everything.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 20:53

It's from the book Gods and Monsters, or the series Gods and Monsters by Amber V Nicole. Um, so the Gods and Monsters series follows Diana Martinez, a powerful and emotionally hardened woman shaped by violence, survival, sacrifice, and repeated loss. Beneath her strength is someone carrying years of unresolved grief that was never truly processed, only survived. Her and Daenerys would be so like best friends. Or maybe not. I think they would. I think so too. Yeah. Through the series, Diana repeatedly experiences emotional devastation while continuing to function as though stopping would destroy everything around her. Much of her identity becomes tied to protecting others, carrying emotional pain alone, and believing vulnerability is dangerous. While Diana experiences multiple forms of loss throughout her life, the death of her sister Gabby becomes one of the most emotionally defining moments of her story. Gabby represented safety, familiarity, Emotional grounding and one of the few relationships where Diana could exist without constantly being in survival mode. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:10

Yeah, that was tough.

SPEAKER_06 22:12

It was really hard. Um, and especially the way it happened and like who it did it. Like oh, you don't want to spoil that. No, no, no, no. No, that I'm not spoiling.

SPEAKER_03 22:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 22:27

Well, I mean, we've talked about them before. So go back to our previous episodes, and it's the one person we talk about from God's monsters. I give you a hint. His name starts with K. Her story explores cumulative grief, survivor's guilt, emotional suppression, and what happens when someone becomes so used to surviving pain that they stop believing healing is even possible. It's so wild. Um, all right, presenting problem behaviors, emotional suppression during grief, chronic survival mode replacing emotional processing, hyperindependence and self-isolation, functioning through emotional devastation. Core themes, cumulative grief and repeated loss, survivor's guilds, identity built around survival and protection, and fear of emotional collapse. Um, core belief for Diana, if I stop functioning, everything falls apart. So some treatment goals and interventions for her increase emotional awareness and grief processing, reduce emotional suppression and emotional isolation, process grief instead of compartmentalizing it, challenge belief that survival must come before healing. And what progress looks like allows herself to grieve without emotionally shutting down, accept support instead of carrying pain entirely alone, recognizes that functioning does not automatically mean healing, and experiences vulnerability without viewing it as weakness. And like obviously, Sam Kyle plays a huge role in all of this, and I'm not really talking about him today, but there is a source of support, but even that took her a long time to like you know be vulnerable. Anyway, um, as far as the outcome, well, the series isn't done yet, and we're actually getting a new book. I this is my most anticipated read. Like, sorry, Avatar. I I'm excited about that. Definitely, Dessa. But like, I want this one to come out first, but we gotta wait till November. It's fine. Um, Diana's growth is not about becoming softer, it's about realizing that survival alone is not the same thing as healing. For most of her life, grief became something she carried instead of something she processed. Loss hardened her, reinforced her need for control, and taught her that emotional endurance was safer than vulnerability. The real shift in her healing begins when she slowly allows herself to stop treating emotional suffering like something she has to survive alone. Her story ultimately explores the difference between surviving grief and allowing yourself to emotionally live after it.

SPEAKER_05 25:15

Yeah, and man, you know, I had a moment with Diana where I was like, you know how we I think one episode a long time ago, we were talking about just like how you're like, alright, like you've been doing this for like 300 pages now, just get over it and move on.

SPEAKER_06 25:32

And I had a moment like that with her because it was bad, she was bad, and she wasn't like silently grieving, and then she was like ragefully grieving, and it was a lot, it was a lot, but I loved every letter of every word in these books. Yeah, it's so good, so good. Alright, treatment team meeting, clipboards out because grief doesn't just affect emotions, it affects identity, relationships, safety, vulnerability, and the way people learn to survive. If Daenerys walked into my office, my immediate impression would be someone carrying an overwhelming amount of grief underneath a very controlled exterior.

SPEAKER_07 26:20

She presents strong, composed, purpose-driven, but it would feel like the strength is doing a lot of emotional heavy lifting.

SPEAKER_06 26:28

Like if this is someone who learned very early that vulnerability wasn't safe and survival depended on becoming stronger than the pain, and I'd immediately notice how tightly identity and purpose are fused together for her. Because with Daenerys, it's not just who am I, it's who am I if I stop fighting? Who am I if I stop caring everyone? Um, if Diana walked into my office, I think the first thing I'd notice is how deeply survival has become part of her identity. She feels like someone who spent so long carrying grief that emotional exhaustion has started to feel normal to her. Um, and clinically, she would present as extremely high-functioning, emotionally controlled, and constantly prepared for loss. But underneath that control is someone carrying unresolved grief, survivor skill, emotional hypervigilance, and years of emotional suppression.

SPEAKER_02 27:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:21

Yeah, of course Diane's gonna walk in and be like, I'm Diana Martinez. Like, I'm good. I'm fine.

SPEAKER_06 27:26

I'm fine. I'm fine, right? Yeah, I got this. I'm running stuff, I'm good, you know. Yeah, all right. Well, what they'd say versus reality. So shhame again, Daenerys. Khaleesi.

SPEAKER_04 27:46

Daenerys, mother of dragons, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 27:49

She'd probably come in focused on betrayal, on leadership, on the pressure of responsibility.

SPEAKER_07 27:55

She'd talk about how people failed her, how much she'd had to survive, how exhausting it is constantly carrying the weight of protecting others. But clinically, I'd be looking at something deeper.

SPEAKER_06 28:06

A person experiencing cumulative trauma, grief, who never actually had space to emotionally process the loss. Because every time Daenerys loses someone, she has to keep moving, she has to keep functioning, keep carrying everyone else.

SPEAKER_07 28:19

And over time that changes people. The grief starts to harden into anger, the fear of abandonment starts turning into control, and vulnerability starts feeling dangerous instead of connecting.

SPEAKER_06 28:31

So the issue isn't that she feels too intensely, it's that she's carrying years of unprocessed grief while trying to function as if she's emotionally fine. I'm fine, I'm fine. It's crazy how like that was like a theme this week. I'm fine, and we're doing this now, yeah. And I'm fine, yeah. Yeah, she's fine today. And I'm I'm fine today, too. We all have our days, yeah, you know, yeah. Alright, anyway, um, what Diana would say versus reality, she'd probably say things like I'm fine, or I don't have time to fall apart right now because functioning has become her version of coping. But the reality is that she's surviving emotionally, not processing emotionally. Yeah, and like it's crazy because like sometimes you have to tell yourself I'm fine because it's so it's just too much to carry. Yeah, and there's something in saying that, like a hope that like if I say this, it's gonna lay in it somehow. Yeah, you know, so I I get it. Like, if you say I'm fine and you're not, like maybe that's what you just have to tell yourself in the moment. Um, yeah. I also realized that like when I do sessions, I'm always like, How are you doing? And I'm like, Well, that's a loaded question, but that's why we're here, right? To talk about it. But just think about how you just pass regular people and you're like, How are you doing? And people are like, Oh, I'm fine. They're not gonna get into it, obviously, but it's just such a it's okay to not be fine, people. Yeah, somebody asks you how you're doing and you're not fine. Say, I'm not fine, but I'm hanging in. I'm gonna make it work, or I'm gonna push through. Well, don't say all that. You don't gotta explain yourself to people.

SPEAKER_04 30:17

I wish people would stop asking me how I'm doing. Yeah. Like mine, you're fucking sorry. Like you're not the time or the place. Like we're fucking walking, we're going somewhere. Yeah, we're just passing each other wherever we're going. Yeah, so why do you even get to know how I'm doing? What if I don't want you in my business? Right, exactly. Like, stop just asking people what how they're doing.

SPEAKER_06 30:42

Yeah, just say good morning, have a good day, and keep it moving. Yeah, because at least, like, maybe telling me have a good day instead of like, How are you doing? It's giving me anxiety versus calming me a little bit. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 30:56

What do you work on first? Okay, so I'd start with just safety, you know, like emotional safety. Because I don't think Daenerys actually believes she's allowed to fall apart. She's so used to being the strong one, the leader, the symbol, the survivor, that I think slowing down emotionally would feel terrifying for her. So early work would focus on helping her separate strength from emotional suppression, and we'd move into things like grief processing, attachment wounds, fear of abandonment, emotional regulation, and exploring who she is outside of power and responsibility.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 31:32

Because right now, so much of her identity depends on being needed. Yeah, I was just gonna say, like, the woman's trying to build a whole kingdom for herself and take back her throne, and you know, like, yeah, she's like, I don't have time to sit here and feel sad. Like, I gotta move. There's a game of thrones going on. Yeah, like hello. You're right. Yeah. Alright, so the first goal probably wouldn't even be emotional processing yet, it would probably be emotional safety. Because Diana feels like someone who has learned to associate vulnerability with danger and loss of control. So yeah, she needs some emotional, she needs to feel safe with feeling what she gotta feel.

SPEAKER_04 32:19

Oh my gosh, like I just I just miss rock a rim all of a sudden. Rock a rim. Oh rock a rim. Rock a rim. Oh rock a rim. What? Oh my god. Make a mistake about the marriage you talk about because you have to like even in the whole rock around.

SPEAKER_06 32:51

Um I did, but I was laughing because I was like, oh, did she realize? Because you said I miss him.

SPEAKER_07 32:57

I miss him, you know.

SPEAKER_06 33:00

Yeah, no, I thought you were giving away the spoiler. Yeah, it's the time, though, right? Okay, um, countertransference time. Okay, I think I feel a mix of admiration and sadness working with her because Daenerys is incredibly resilient, like objectively resilient, but there's also this grief underneath her that feels profoundly lonely.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

And I probably notice an urge to protect the parts of her that never really got protected by anyone else. At the same time, I think I'd also have to monitor feelings of helplessness or frustration, especially when her fear and anger start overriding connection.

SPEAKER_06 33:40

Because with clients like Daenerys, you can feel the tension between understanding someone's pain and being concerned about what they do with it. But Daenerys, I would be like, Where's the dragons? Yes, I would definitely want to know like about her dragons. In regards to Diana, I think it's similar to what you just said about Daenerys. Um, there would be a lot of admiration for her resilience initially. Because she does carry a lot and do a lot. Um, but there I would also be sad for her because like I'm watching someone who normalized carrying impossible amounts of pain alone, you know?

SPEAKER_02 34:20

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 34:21

And um she would be an interesting person to meet. I feel like it would take a while for her to like want to even do therapy because again, I'm fine, right? Yeah, but then she would come around. Um, and then I'd be like, let me see your north inside.

SPEAKER_02 34:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 34:39

Let's get you angry. Oh goodness. I'd be like, girl, can you teach me that thing you did with Sam Kyle? Mm-hmm. That I'll take. Mm-hmm. Alright. Some interventions? Yes. I would just lean in in trauma-informed work and complicated grief therapy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 34:58

A lot of the work would involve helping her tolerate emotions that she usually converts immediately into action, anger, or control. There'd also be a huge attachment component, helping her explore what it means to trust people without constantly testing loyalty or bracing for betrayal.

SPEAKER_06 35:15

Um, and a lot of therapy with Daenerys would probably involve helping her experience care without feeling like she has to earn it through suffering. That's good work. Sorry, I'm just like that girl had a lot. She had a lot. I want to like rewatch Game of Thrones now. So for Diana, a lot of the work would focus on grief processing, emotional regulation, and helping her reconnect with emotions she learned to suppress just to survive. So yeah, I think absolutely grief. She needs grief work done and the emotion regulation altogether.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 35:51

Alright. Hard truth. Once rapport was established, I'd probably say something like when grief goes unprocessed long enough, people can start confusing destruction with justice.

SPEAKER_07 36:06

I think that's what happened for um believe. Yeah. Like oh, yeah. Yeah. But anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Because pain can absolutely explain behavior, but it doesn't automatically make every reaction safe. And I think Daenerys reaches a point where survival, grief, rage, and identity become so intertwined that she stops recognizing where one ends and the other begins.

SPEAKER_05 36:34

Alright.

SPEAKER_06 36:34

Um, the hard truth for Diana is that surviving the loss is not the same thing as healing from it. And eventually survival mode stops protecting you and starts emotionally trapping you. And that's just like with everything, not even just grief.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 36:51

With that survival mode, you know. Yeah. Alright, how are we bringing it back to real life for the people? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:59

Alright, so this is why I think so many people connect with Daenerys. Okay. Because a lot of people know what it feels like to keep functioning while carrying enormous grief underneath. To keep showing up, to keep performing, keep taking care of everyone else while never really stopping long enough to process what they've lost. And sometimes when people don't feel safe grieving, those emotions come out sideways as anger, as control, as emotional distance, as needing to stay strong all the time.

SPEAKER_06 37:31

Because grief doesn't disappear just because someone keeps functioning. You literally said that in the beginning, too. Like, just because like I'm going through my day-to-day doesn't mean that I'm not still grieving. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, for Diana, a lot of people relate because functioning through grief is often what gets praised in real life. Um, people continue surviving emotionally devastating situations while everyone around them assumes their healing because they never fully fall apart. So it's like if you're not crying in front of them or falling apart, it's like they think you're fine. Yeah. But no, it's it doesn't work that way. Like people are carrying a lot that you don't see. Um, and you have to just know that. All of you out there listening, be kind to people because you don't know what they're carrying. The pain, the pain, the pain, and the plot. Right. What's your moment? I can't wait for this. Um I'm surprised that this was my moment.

SPEAKER_04 38:38

Okay. Because I had so many moments. But the moment I went with was when Daenerys loses Cal Drogo and their unborn son, Rago.

SPEAKER_06 38:50

Because this is really the first real game. Real game. Rego. No, that's good. Um, because this is really the first time Daenerys experiences having a true sense of love, belonging and future, and then losing all of it almost at once. The pain, losing the first person who made her feel chosen and protected, the traumatic loss of both her husband and child, helplessness after trying desperately to save Drogo, guilt surrounding the consequences of the blood magic, guilt tied to shattered identity and future dreams, realizing love and safety can disappear suddenly, experiencing profound loss immediately after finally finding connection. The shift. Daenerys moves from dependent survivor to emotionally hardened leader. Grief becomes intertwined with destiny and rebirth.

SPEAKER_07 39:43

Vulnerability starts being replaced by power and purpose.

SPEAKER_03 39:47

The loss fundamentally changes how she relates to attachment and control. Her identity begins shifting towards the mother of dragons as a way to survive the grief, the plot. Kaldrogo dies after Daenerys attempts to save him through blood magic.

SPEAKER_07 40:03

Rego is lost as part of the rituals cost. Daenerys walks in. I feel like it's like Rhaego is lost, the rituals cost, Daenerys walks the funerals pyre.

SPEAKER_06 40:15

Rhaego is lost as a part of the rituals cost.

SPEAKER_03 40:19

Daenerys walks into the funeral pyre and emerges with dragons. The moment transforms her from vulnerable exile into a legendary political and symbolic force. Her grief becomes the foundation of her rise to power moving forward.

SPEAKER_06 40:35

Yeah, so she's like, My life is falling apart, fine, I'll just hatch dragons.

SPEAKER_03 40:41

So, I mean, was the pain worth the plot? If Drogo and Rago survive, Daenerys likely remains emotionally grounded in family and partnership. Her path towards conquests and isolation may look completely different. She potentially develops identity through connection instead of destiny alone. But if they die, grief becomes the catalyst for transformation.

SPEAKER_06 41:05

Daenerys is reborn through loss and survival, and the pain reshapes not only her life but the fate of entire kingdoms.

SPEAKER_07 41:12

Because sometimes grief doesn't just take people away, it changes the version of you that exists afterwards. Um, so what do you think? Do you think the pain was worth the plot?

SPEAKER_05 41:23

No.

SPEAKER_06 41:23

I don't know. I I feel like I mean this sounds great, right? The whole thing. Right. That's what I'm saying. I would have rather seen it, and she might have still conquered whatever, because now she has her man with her and her child, and it would have been different. She wouldn't have been in constant not to say like she wouldn't have lost people, but like it would have been different.

SPEAKER_07 41:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 41:48

She would have had like an anchor, you know, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So yeah, that's my opinion. Thank you. Yeah. Alright. So for me, the moment is the moments that immediately follow Gabby's death when Diana's still being forced to keep moving, make decisions, protecting other people, and emotionally holding herself together instead of being allowed to fully collapse in. And yeah. That was really hard. Alright, the pain, losing one of the few people who represented emotional safety and unconditional love, carrying grief from repeated losses over time, feeling responsible for surviving while people she loved did not, believing she can't afford to emotionally fall apart because people still need her. Um, the shift would have been she allows herself to emotionally acknowledge the loss instead of compartmentalizing it. She accepts support instead of isolating herself in survival mode. She stops treating emotional suppression as proof of strength, and grief becomes something she processes instead of silently carrying it alone. Um the plot less emotional isolation and self-destruction, uh, deeper emotional vulnerability with people around her. Grief becomes integrated into her identity instead of hardening into emotional armor, and her healing begins before survival fully replaces her ability to emotionally live. So she lost one of the only people who made her feel emotionally safe and still convinced herself she had to keep functioning like nothing happened. And that was and again, like if you didn't read it yet, and we did obviously, but like she went it was a lot. A lot, she went in. Yeah, it's an understatement. Yeah, yeah. Um, so I don't know, what do you think? Do you think the pain was worth the plot? Or would we have wanted to yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:57

No, the pain wasn't worth the plot for me, at least not.

SPEAKER_05 44:00

Not yet. Yeah. Not yet.

SPEAKER_04 44:03

Well I want that life for her where she can just relax and enjoy her Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 44:10

You know, her life.

SPEAKER_00 44:11

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 44:12

Same. But like I also wonder what like her relationship with Sam Kyle would be like if not, you know. Yeah. But like he has his whole thing, own thing going on. Anyway, so God is whole thing. Yeah.

unknown 44:27

Oops.

SPEAKER_06 44:27

Alright, where are we? Is it time for fun? Is it time for fun? It is. We're having fun with grief. Okay, look at that. Let's do it. We're gonna do the mini fun games. Mini fun games time, guys. Play along. Alright, so the first game. At what point did they break? So we're gonna name different moments in these character stories, and we have to decide was this the moment they emotionally broke or had the shift already started before then. So for Daenerys, was Daenerys already emotionally breaking during Viserys' abuse, or did losing Cal Drogo and Raygo fundamentally change her? I feel like she was oh was she already breaking like while she was growing up? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. I think so too. Yeah. I don't think we saw it. Yeah. But yeah, she was. I agree. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Was losing Drogo the beginning of Daenerys' emotional hardening, or did she still remain emotionally hopeful after that loss? I think that w that was when the hardening began. I don't think she was hopeful after that. I think that really broke her.

SPEAKER_00 45:38

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_07 45:38

Yeah. Did Daenerys truly break after losing Viserion?

SPEAKER_06 45:43

Or after realizing Westeros feared her more than loved her?

SPEAKER_00 45:47

Hmm.

SPEAKER_06 45:48

That's a really good question. Because like both. Yeah. Yeah. But which one first? Yeah. Because she did truly break after losing Bissarium, but was I mean it broke her a little bit, but I think maybe the her dragon, yeah. Yeah. I agree. I think it's she truly broke after losing her dragon. Yeah. Yeah. Was Massande's death the breaking point or simply the final emotional collapse after years of cumulative grief?

SPEAKER_05 46:16

I think a f I think a final emotional collapse.

SPEAKER_06 46:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 46:21

Yeah. And then last one, did Daenerys break because of grief or because she became emotionally isolated inside power? I think she became emotionally isolated inside power.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 46:34

Okay, so for Diana, did Diana emotionally break before the audience even meets her? Or do we actually watch it happen over the course of the story? I think it's um it happened before we met her. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 46:49

It definitely did. And if we're talking about with Caden, then like, you know, back when he had first got her, and I agree with you.

SPEAKER_06 46:57

And then now later on we get his POV, you know, and then we see like how it was when he was just trying to show Diana, like, yeah. It's beautiful, but I think I agree with you. I think even before that, because even remember before we even knew like the ri the limitations with seeing her sister and like all of that, like she was already experiencing all of that. You know, only having a certain amount of time to visit Gabby, and you know. Um, was survival what hardened Diana or was it betrayal and emotional loss?

SPEAKER_03 47:30

It's betrayal and emotional loss.

SPEAKER_07 47:33

Because survival, I think, if anything, did the I mean, yeah, it could have hardened her a little bit, but no thing it softened her because she took care of her sister and she she became a protector, and that's different.

SPEAKER_06 47:46

It's when she had the betrayal. Yeah, I think that sent her over the bench. Absolutely. I agree with you. Yeah. Uh, did love help heal Diana, or did it expose how damaged she already was? I think it helped. Uh yeah. I I would say help heal more than the other one, but yes, both.

SPEAKER_03 48:06

It's almost like she had to face who she was, you know? She had to face who she was because it's like someone's giving you love and they're filling you up.

SPEAKER_07 48:14

Like it's like a mold. Like you see what was missing, what how long it took, how much it took to fill you up. Like, it's measurable.

SPEAKER_06 48:23

Yeah, and then like injuring like judge yourself then. Yeah, not to judge yourself, but you know what I mean? Like, you'll have facts, yeah, and you'll be like, This is how much was missing. Wow, that's very true. Yes. Was there ever a version of Diana that felt emotionally safe, or has survival always shaped her identity? For me, just because I don't feel like I ever got emotionally safe from the beginning, I think survival shaped her identity.

SPEAKER_07 48:54

Survival did because like she who she really is, that means everything has been a lie since day one.

SPEAKER_05 49:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 49:04

So like you've never been safe, like right, right. Alright, and finally, which characters grieve changed the more? Daenerys or Diana? I say Daenerys.

SPEAKER_07 49:15

Diana was like, she I think she fluctuated through it's not like she um what's the word? It's not like she got introduced to this. If anything, it strengthened Diana, like but she already had that.

SPEAKER_06 49:30

Khelsea was a little girl, yeah, you know, and she was being abused for how long? Like, I don't know. And I think we forget she was really young, too. Yeah, and Diana had a family, yeah. You know, she was older, right? Yeah, she had lived a little bit. All right, mini game number two grief, rage, or survival. So we're gonna read the behavior and decide what's driving it. Love it. All right, okay. So refusing to trust people after repeated betrayal grief, rage, or survival. I'm like off the top, I'm saying survival.

SPEAKER_07 50:06

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_06 50:08

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Uh needing to stay strong even when emotionally exhausted. That's survival to me too. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. Threatening destruction to regain control. That's right. That's given rage. Borderline. Oh my god. Yeah. That actually yep. BPD it is. Alright. Okay. Um, emotional withdrawal after losing someone important. Borderline. Um, grief. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Feeling safer being feared than emotionally vulnerable. I was going grief or survival. Yeah. That's where I was going to. Yeah. Yeah. Um, destroying relationships before people can leave first. Self-sabotage. Oh, coming soon. Yes. Very soon. Um, okay, but seriously, um I think that's survival. That is. Yeah. But it can be all three. Yeah. But yeah, survival for sure.

SPEAKER_05 51:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 51:20

Hyperindependence. Again, it could be all three. Yeah. But I'm surviving with survival. Yeah, exactly. Becoming obsessed with purpose after loss. I think that can be a grief and survival thing.

SPEAKER_07 51:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 51:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 51:39

Yeah. Protecting people while emotionally distancing from them.

SPEAKER_06 51:45

There goes the metro north. That's what I'm trying to do right now.

SPEAKER_07 51:50

I'm trying to protect people while emotionally distancing from them.

SPEAKER_06 51:54

Borderline. Yeah, borderline. Um, well, if I'm looking at you, I think it's grief and survival together. Damn. That's what you say when you look at me. Yeah. Grief and survival. Well, in relation, yeah, relation to that statement, not in life. But like also in life. Oh, yeah. Actually, yeah. Oh my god. Really? Wow, yeah. You're a grief and survival girl. Okay, but I need something in there, like a fucking compliment sandwich. You just gave me slabs of bad news. Okay, your grief survival instead of rage. I'm gonna give you resilience. No, that just means I can keep going. No, it means that like you No, that's not true. Resilient means you just keep going. And the things that you gave me, it means I can just like grief, survival, and reflection. Because you're very reflective. Oh okay. Well, what do you give yourself? Why are I gonna decide? I'm not giving myself anything. Okay, yeah. First of all, I was only talking about that statement that you made it about your whole life. And lastly, confusing control with safety, I feel is survival.

SPEAKER_07 53:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 53:11

Yeah. Definitely survival. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 53:17

Would they know who they are?

SPEAKER_06 53:18

She's fine. Don't worry. She's really fine. Yeah. Why?

SPEAKER_04 53:21

I'm not fine. You're not fine? Why would anyone think I'm not fine?

SPEAKER_06 53:26

Because we've been saying all day, don't worry, I'm fine. Oh yeah, I'm not. Jeez, keep up.

SPEAKER_07 53:33

I was making sure you were like, you're not.

SPEAKER_06 53:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 53:36

Okay. Why would they know who they were without the pain?

SPEAKER_06 53:40

Why would they know why would they know who they know? Would they know who they were without the pain? Okay, would they know? Okay. Who would Daenerys be if she had grown up emotionally safe? Um, I think she would have just been like a little princess. Yeah. Yeah. Even if everything had happened to her. But let's say her brother was more loving and just not, well, obviously that's what the prompt is, right?

SPEAKER_07 54:07

But like if that were the situation, then she could she could have just learned the ways of the doth rock here, whoever she was gonna marry. Right, you know, marry them, like still kind of go on about it, but like on her terms, or she could have married who she wanted. Like, he didn't have to be so th I cut all that.

SPEAKER_06 54:27

But no, no, no, don't cut it. It's true, you're right. Like, she would have had the ability to choose the outcome of her life. Yeah. In a like, not with some savages, dark rocky, like she had to like go through whatever. She was humiliated when she first met Cal Drogo, you know? Yeah, like it's crazy. So, yeah, she would have been you're right. Don't cut, look, don't listen to her people. She knows what she's talking about.

SPEAKER_07 54:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 54:55

No, that was a good answer. Yeah, I agree. Okay.

SPEAKER_07 54:59

Would Daenerys still seek power if she had secure attachment and belonging?

SPEAKER_06 55:05

Would she still seek power? Maybe, I think, because she still came from a powerful family.

SPEAKER_03 55:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 55:13

You know? But like, I don't know if she would it would have been in the way she went about doing it.

SPEAKER_04 55:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 55:19

But Or they could have just not they, but you know, her and her her people.

SPEAKER_07 55:23

They could be like, you know, we rain and then we got overturned and then boom.

SPEAKER_06 55:30

Let them do it. Let them take care of the things now, you know. Right. No, yeah, you're right. Forfeit. Whatever. Forfeit the crown. Pro forfeit forfeit forfeit the crown. Just burn them all. Burn them all. Remember we were um no, remember we were in the palace palisades? And we were at uh yard house. Was it yard house? And I was like, just burn them all. Oh my god. With our friend, yeah, yeah. Okay. Bleep. Yeah. Well. Well, how much of Mother of Dragons is identity and how much is survival? Huh. I would say like half and half.

SPEAKER_02 56:13

I like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 56:15

Because I think it's half and half. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 56:20

Okay. Um, did Daenerys ever actually get to develop outside of trauma?

SPEAKER_05 56:26

No.

SPEAKER_06 56:26

I don't think so. No, not at all. Alright.

SPEAKER_07 56:30

And lastly, if Daenerys had experienced consistent love and emotional safety, would the story end differently?

SPEAKER_06 56:38

Well, we don't know how the story ends. Yeah. We're still waiting. We're still waiting, George R. R. Martin. But if she did, it would have set them on a different path, obviously. Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_05 56:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 56:50

And that would have been an interesting path. That would have been a different ending. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's go to Diana. Um, does Diana know how to exist outside survival mode? No. No. Oh, that's the easy one. Yeah. Alright. Who is Diana when she isn't protecting herself emotionally?

SPEAKER_03 57:10

Oh. Well, Sam Kyle.

SPEAKER_06 57:13

I was just gonna say, if you want to find out who she is when she's not protecting herself emotionally, read the book because you will find out. Because when she's with Sam Kyle, it's so beautiful to see her being vulnerable. And so beautiful the way he understands how like how vulnerable she is, and just her. It's just a beautiful thing. And he's really god tier. Oh my god. He's a god tier man, literally.

SPEAKER_03 57:43

Yeah, he is.

SPEAKER_06 57:43

Yeah. Okay. Um yeah, we do. Did Pain Shape Dine? I'm surprised we haven't done him for anything yet. It's because we're saving him for like Yeah. Maybe we need to do like a God tier men episode or something. We'll figure it out. If you guys have suggestions, like send us an email. We have no emails, guys. Do something. I'm gonna start emailing from Vanessa.com. Or mail.com. Yeah. I'm gonna start sending you letters in the post. Okay. Like the old school days. Yeah, like I'm gonna mail you a letter to you. I love that. But like not a full-on letter, it's just gonna be like a text message. I'm like, hey, what's she doing? Or some shit like that. W I D question mark. Oh my god, that's so funny. I remember I used to write letters to my cousins and mail it. Like, that's how we kept in touch back in the day. It was so nice because I would love like getting mail, and I saw it was for my cousin, and like did you ever have a pen pal in school? Like I signed up, or they signed me up for some weird shit when I was younger, and like I had a pen pal, and I would like write to some girl that's like my age in a different country. I don't even remember where she's from now. I wish I had a pen pal.

SPEAKER_02 59:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 59:06

Alright. Oh, yes. Did pain shape Diana or become part of her identity? Both. Both, yeah. Yeah. Um, is vulnerability harder for Diana than violence? Yeah. 100%. Of course. Okay. Do these characters actually want power or do they want safety? You know, I think they both want power, but they obviously want safety too. Yeah. I was gonna say safety.

SPEAKER_03 59:33

Alright. Well, next week we're talking about daddy issues. Oh, oh, it's that we're here already? Shit. That's why when you're like, alright, I'm like, oh, you want it to end.

SPEAKER_06 59:41

No, no, no. Because I'm thinking, I was just thinking, should we do honorable like mentions, characters that we oh, grief?

SPEAKER_07 59:49

Yeah. Yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_06 59:51

Any kind of grief mention. Yeah. Yeah, let's do it. Um, first, I just want to mention like our pets that we both have lost and we're grieving. And yeah, so shout out to Lexi and Chew.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:08

Lexi. Lexi girl. Chew. I hope y'all are up there running around together and just living the life of luxury.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:19

But like also don't forget the life of luxury you got here on earth. I gave Lexi like the best life. Lexi, I was so ja I wanted her life. I wanted her life, and I would tell her that all the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:32

Like, I miss Lexi so much, and like Tuesday will be one year since I had to put her down. I can't believe a year.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:41

I can't even believe it's been a year. It like I know people say this all the time, but like it really felt like last week or like even maybe last month, you know.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:49

But a whole year is wild. That's so wild. Like Lexi was such a but what does it say about like the growth, you know?

SPEAKER_07 1:00:58

Like it's just I didn't think I could breathe after that.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:02

So to know like a year from then, and now like I'm getting my doctorate and I'm doing really well at work.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:11

Yeah. And you know, just I'm maintaining the relationships I want, and I'm you know, I'm I'm doing well.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:20

Yeah. And I'm doing really well. You are, you're really. And I just didn't think like and you know, I think I said it when Lexi first when I first had to play her down, I was like, there's no way that this doesn't lead to something good. Yeah. Because this is the biggest sacrifice I've ever made in my life. Absolutely, yeah. It's just, it's just um, yeah, it's hard. It's difficult. It is, but also like just like you said, like in that moment, you were like, I can't, like, I can't even breathe. I can't even think about a tomorrow, like, you know. And yeah, you have done so much and so many positive things, and like Lexi would be so proud of you.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:59

Oh, thank you for being there. You have my grief, and as I continue to grieve.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:04

Yeah, and I mean, thank you for being there for mine because my, you know, we had to put my cat down only two months ago, and you know, I've like been telling you this that for you to not again that I'm happy that you had to experience that, but to know that like my literal best friend who I'm going to come to to talk about this has been through it and like can just understand and give like words because like when it was the other way around, I I'm like, oh my god, what do I even like say to her? Like, I don't even know. This is Lexi, like, there's nothing I can say that's going to make her feel better, and I think I stopped just trying to make you feel better, and I just was like, I'm gonna just let her know I'm here, and you know, it was difficult, but like I appreciate that, you know, you got it, you understood. Um, and yeah, it's rough, and again, going back to like, oh, well, it was just a dog, or it was just a cat, or whatever, it's like it was so much more than that, and I think you told me something, and I think you told my mom this too, or maybe I told her what you said that like animals just give us the truest form of love that we'll ever experience, like like no other human, like no other person, nothing, because it's just their love is just so genuine and authentic. Yeah, and it's like truly unconditional, it's truly unconditional, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:38

But um, I think what I was gonna say earlier, I think what I told your mom that the thing I heard was um, or the thing I read somewhere is like the pain that I have, like this grief that I'm grieving, it's only this strong because this is how much love I have for this person or this thing or this animal. And it's like, would you rather take the pain away? Or that's just the proof that you love them that much.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:04

It's just yeah, you know, I'd rather keep that pain every day if that reminds me of how much love I have for someone. Yeah, and I think that you know, it was a lot that day, and like I actually was the one that had to make the decision, and like my parents, I don't know that they would have been able to make the decision, you know, because I know my my dad even asked, Well, can we bring him home? And my mom just was like, Well, why you know, you can see they wanted to hold on to him, right? But I have to keep telling my mom, like, we had to sacrifice our happiness for the sake of his peace because we love him and we wouldn't have wanted him to suffer, and we wouldn't have wanted to come home and just find him there knowing that like he wasn't doing well. Like, I think that we gave him the most respectful, loving passing that he could have had. Um, so it it was really hard. It's really hard because you want to spend like every you don't want like sometimes I just wish my mom even says, like, I wish I would open my eyes and he would just be sitting there, you know. And it's hard to just let go. It's so hard. Yeah, and just even after, like I remember you like with routines and things, walks and feedings, and you know, all the things, you know.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:24

All the things that you did. And then it's like remember like two, three days later, uh her treats came in the mail, and I was like, Yeah, like and then I that prompted me to go start like pausing or can't see I'm already talking about pausing, but like canceling the um auto ship stuff because I don't want them to keep coming and right.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:48

I don't know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:50

It was so rough, but it's like having a long lifetime connection with someone. I haven't had that sort of grief in my life yet.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:57

Yeah, you know, so Lexi was my longest relationship. To a person that has ever passed away. Absolutely. And yeah. Yeah, that was that was a lot for your first time. And that was your soul dog. Like Lexi was there throughout so many things, you know.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:12

People would call me Lexi.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:15

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:15

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_06 1:06:16

Like you're like, oh Lexi.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:17

I'm like, that's my dog's name. They're like, well, where's Lexi?

SPEAKER_06 1:06:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:24

Uh well. Lexi and Shu, wherever you are, just know that we love you and we miss you.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:32

Lexi, if you said bleep, blink twice. Yeah. I just want her next to me, but I don't really need her right next to me. Like a because, like a because like a because. But it it um I get super kind of paranoid that like I'm gonna be in bed and knock it over, not over the urn and it's gonna break and remember you were like, if my apartment burns down, just grab Lexi and run.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:56

Yeah, hell yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:57

But I'm not gonna. Oh yeah, when I had you babysit her ashes.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:00

Yeah. Oh my god, I always remember her in her little hermaise like outfit. Just like right here.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:07

She's just so dainty.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:08

Oh, she was such a dainty lady.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:11

Her little twitch when she walked. And her bow and her ponytails. Yeah. She hated it. Mm-hmm. And that tail, that beautiful tail. And she pranced, girl. That girl pranced. Like a princess. Yeah, I know. And I people get tired of me saying it, but like Lexi's championship bloodline. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, she is. I saved her from that life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:42

Well, I saved you from a mesh on a window. He was the one good thing that came from that. She was a good boy. She was so good. But he had his like own, he was like a dainty man. He was a dainty sir. He had his particular things about him too.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:00

Yeah, you just make sure, like, well, as far as me, like I would just stay still and make sure like he chose me.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:08

Yeah. I wouldn't want to do anything except. And he always chose the okay. He like, you know, he had to like he was very friendly too, I feel like, you know. But he has he was cautiously friendly.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:22

As he should be. Because don't just be loving everybody too. Yeah, well, he got that. And yeah. Yeah. And y'all grew up in the same home. So in dynamics. Yeah. That's true. I also like tend to forget how when I lived at home, how much he used to like scratch my bedroom door because he wanted to come in and like he wanted to sleep next to me. He was in my bathroom sink, watching me get ready, and like just all those moments I spent with him. So I have a question. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:56

Because something I struggled with a lot, and I know you saw me, but I don't even know if you knew how deep I was struggling with like the anticipatory grief. Because you know, I started noticing something was going on with Alex, and I was like, something's not right. But you know, maybe it's just because she's coming from Philly and like she needs to readjust to being back home or whatever. And then it was just like something like it just felt off, and then I'm like, I know she's getting older, like I know something, but like I could just feel it, you know, like I just felt it.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:29

And I don't know if you because like you knew that he was on medication, yeah and stuff.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:34

So did you feel that, or were you just so like you know, I started to notice that he was getting older, well, and I would make comments because he wouldn't jump on the counter anymore or jump on the table or go sit on his favorite seat, like he was very like slowed down, right? Um, and then even you know, I guess before it happened, right? My mom started noticing he wasn't acting himself, and I think that like I don't know, I feel like some cats when they get older, they start to have that like like older, like you know, that like senior-looking face. Like they just look like they're getting old, and Chu like never looked that way, he always looked the same. So I think like part of us like didn't realize he was really aging until he started to slow down because he just always looked like his young little useless self, like youthful self, not useless, useless, youthful self. So um, yeah, I started to notice things, but um, and I even heard him making that like noise, like I didn't know if it was a hairball or something, and then after I realized like they can make that noise when they're heart, like yeah, and so I guess I picked up stuff after the fact, but I did start to notice when he was slowing down, and you know, they say like cats can live to like 20-something, so I was like, Oh well, he's just 17, he'll be around longer, but yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:04

That's what I thought too. I thought Lexi had more time, but then seeing her, like when her eyes got a little cloudier and then she wasn't hearing me, like when I came upstairs, like I would come in the house and then like the Let's say I'm I have it here in my I just can't hear her. Um yeah, you know, like that's when I was just like, damn, I felt so bad. Like, so sometimes I would just come in the house, like the lead the last few days, leave that. I would come in the house, and like she usually she knows, she knows I'm having I would like just cry downstairs, wipe my tears, and woke up to my bedroom and I'd be like, hi Lexi, and like gently touch her because like she can't see me, she can't hear me.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:51

Like, I know she can hear me, but not so well. But clearly, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:56

It's just I just I was breaking because I'm like at that point where I'm like, Do I like is she in pain?

SPEAKER_07 1:12:05

You know, like she does not want to live like this. I know Lexi, like she wouldn't want to struggle, I would not let her struggle.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:11

So yeah, I'm like now I need to make a decision, like because I'm only hanging on for myself, right? Right that's not okay. That's not okay, yep. So um, not so fun fact, everyone.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:24

Our our animals passed in the same exact room, like at the at the hospital, at the vet yard, yeah, same room, and then like I have to talk about Drogo.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:37

Oh my god, in the episode where Drogo was Oh my god, Drogo.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:41

Drogo was my um Drogo was my dog. Well, Mr. Mr. Darcy, my sister changed his name, but um Cal Drogo was a short key, and he mostly like well, you don't need the details, but anyway, like he was a tiny little dog, and I got him for Lexi because I was like, oh, she's like three or whatever. She's getting like bored, and I was in college and I didn't really have time to do anything, so I got another dog, and it was Drogo, and long story short, I love him.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:15

He became like a really good part of my family, and then he died like what was it four months to the day after Lexi died?

SPEAKER_06 1:13:23

And like she was watching him for her sister for my sister.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:26

Oh, I skipped over the part where like we were living in Brooklyn, and it was just too much for me to have two dogs, like, and no grass, and it was like yeah, it was just I didn't like it, and I didn't like how Mr.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:38

Darcy pooped, like he pooped in a circle, and I'm like, ew, just like I'm I'm coming up behind you trying to clean it up, like just stay in one spot. Yeah, like he's pooping and walking, and I'm like, uh I hated it. Yeah, because you're just walking with a poop bag, like following him. Yeah, so anyway, so I gave him away. I was trying to give him to my mom. My mom's like, Oh, I can't handle a dog. I was like, he's two and a half pounds. Um, but then my sister, my sister took him, and she lives two hours away from my house. So like we would just drive, we would meet up in Jersey and like transfer the dogs, like I don't know, on weekends or when when one of us when when one of us were going on vacation or had to do something, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:22

But anyway, so like I was watching Mr.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:26

Darcy for my sister, and my dog had just died four months before, and it was like to the day, to the day it was October 9th, and I was like, I came home and I'm like he never um he didn't fucking run to the door, and I was like, Mr. Darcy, I said Drogo, just in case Melissa's listening.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:48

Yeah, um I was like, I was like, Mr. Darcy, and then I look over on the couch and then I see him there stiff as a board. Like light as a feather, still stiff as a board.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:03

Yeah, um, and then I called you and I was freaking out. I was like, oh my god. Oh my god, I think Mr. Darcy passed, and I'm like, no, absolutely not. This is not happening again. Did I like shoot over there? I think you did. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:18

You came right over, and and the thing is, I was just like, this is so sad for me because not just for me, for my sister.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:26

My sister was on a flight, she had just landed, no, I and we had to call my mom, and my mom was like, Don't don't tell her yet until she like gets home because she was driving, and I was like, There were so many playing parts, so many parts of playing, yeah, parts of rockets, whatever I'm saying. Um and then bleep came over to help us move the body because we couldn't deal with it.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:51

Yeah, yeah, no, I'm okay. Listen, yesterday's bleep is not today's bleep. Yeah, basically, right, right. I was so afraid of Lexi passing the way that Mr. Darcy did. Yeah, I did not want her to pass away at home while I was at a job that I could give two shits about. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_07 1:16:14

I mean, I'm I'm joking, I love my job. Right, but we don't mean you know what I mean. Like, I wasn't fine.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:20

I'm I'm fine. I wouldn't put those two in the same category. It's no question.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:27

Of course not. So anyway, I just wouldn't want her to die at home alone with no one. That's what alone means, yeah. Yeah, but you get it? No, yeah, with no one to say with no one there, no one to support you, no one to see that it's your last you know, like nobody to comfort you thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:47

So I dreaded that, and I would I feel I can't even say I feel blessed, but like I feel I feel good that I was at least able to stay there with Lexi through her last through the whole putting her down thing.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:01

Um yeah, the last person she heard, so like felt, smelled it was you, it was and I mean I was still there for Drogie too. Yeah, no, I forgot, right? It's just I didn't know when, and I didn't know if he suffered.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:13

And I and you know what? Maybe I wasn't around because he was gonna be suffering, or he was suffering.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:20

You remember? And wasn't it the night before when he was having the attack and me and you were on FaceTime and we were like Drogo's going places?

SPEAKER_06 1:17:29

Oh my god, yeah, it's now Drogo's going places, yeah. And you were like, should I give him the allergy medicine? Remember the heart medicine. Yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:40

God, I miss him, but like he was just such a I loved him so much.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:44

I still love him.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:47

I went over to Melissa's house last weekend and um I saw him, I got to touch his urn or whatever because but I know that I I ordered an extra clipping of his hair because I wanted it to like put with Lexi stuff, but when I was there, I just I couldn't even ask her for it.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:05

I was just like, not right now. Yeah. Like my sister is also really grieving, and I don't want to be like, oh, let me get a piece of him and take him away from you.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:15

Yeah, no, I get that. Yeah, yeah, that was rough, and I remember you calling her and telling her, and she just broke down on the phone. Oh, that was so much. Roshe was with us too. Yeah, Roshea was with us too. I can't even remember Roshea coming. I remember before we left. Oh yeah. She came by, and then we all went in my car. So yeah. You know what's so crazy is that Alexi passed on June 9th, and Drogo passed on October 9th, and Shu passed nine months after Alexi passed. So, and then nine means fulfilled, right? Isn't that what nine means? I have no idea, does it? I I think nine means like fulfilled fulfillment. I also think like it's so crazy how we both experience the same thing with our pets, like just within Yeah, what? Yeah. So we're clearly uh you guys can see that we're processing our grief here. We're still we're still here with our grief.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:18

Oh my gosh, hold on. If you mean in numerology, yes, the number nine is often associated with fulfillment, completion, and endings that lead to new beginnings.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:28

You know, so like final words for you guys who are experiencing, will experience, have experienced grief, just like it's not linear, it's all over the place, it's constant. You know, you're gonna have more than one thing to grieve in your life. You know, we're we we just primarily look who's on the fucking screen. Oh my god, it's Cal Drogo. That's crazy. Wow, yeah, that was crazy. Yeah, wow, yeah. Um, yeah, and like that's just us being us. But yeah, and if you know, it's not only death, like we were saying before, like we've grieved, I've grieved versions of myself, I've grieved relationships, I've grieved everything. You grieve everything that you everything that is a loss in life, I feel like you need to grieve.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:26

Yeah, just acknowledge it, name the thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:30

So that you can know what you're longing for on the other end of that. Right. Like, you know. Yeah, and like just respect people's grief process too. Like it's it don't ask like, oh, or make comments, like, oh, but it's been a year, but like, yeah, don't do that. That means nothing. That means nothing. Time doesn't even time isn't even real. Yeah. So what do you mean it's been a year? Okay. It can be six billion years. Get out of my face. Exactly. Like, because I'm because you're still gonna miss Lexi. It doesn't matter, right? Yeah. So just be kind to other people and you know, grieve. Just grieve. Don't rush it, don't say you're fine, just sit there and grieve, and that's it. Alright, well, we are the way we are because of our dads. So next week we're talking about daddy issues, and zaddy issues, maybe, also, and both sides of the father relationship. The dads who become heroes, and the dads who leave wounds, people spend years trying to heal. Hello. We're talking about love, safety, protection, validation, and abandonment, pressure, emotional distance, and never feeling fully chosen. Because fathers can shape the way people see themselves. And sometimes that impact lasts long after childhood ends. Alright, that's it for this session. Send us your book, recommendations, character obsessions, or topics you want us to cover. You can find us on Instagram and TikTok at once upon a session pod.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:12

Or email us at info at onceuponassessionpod.com if you want to share thoughts, suggestions, or just scream about a plot twist with us.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:21

Alright. So are we charging for the session? Nope. We're not charging ever again. Okay, not even emotionally. Oh yeah, this was emotionally charging. Always. Yeah. Emotionally, always. See you next session. Same cast. Same chaos. Chaos. Charlotte. What's Charles reading, she said? The second um oh the second crescent. Yeah. Shout out to Charles and them.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:54

Shout out to Roman.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:55

Speaking of Charles, yeah, oh, Rochet Rem and speaking of Charles and them, we'll be talking about them next week again. Well, for the people, it's next week. For us, it's in five minutes. Yeah. Yes, this will be fine. Y'all don't know how the system works. Now they do. Alright. Alright, well, we're gonna choke and choke and and we're gonna. We won't hurt you. Please stay. Um, no, we're not homicidal guys. We're the sweetest people ever.

SPEAKER_07 1:23:33

We I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:37

Yeah, you're you're such a nice person now. Like, I don't even know who you are. When I hear you on the phone at work. Hi, hey, good morning. How are you? Yeah, good. Bye. Good day.

SPEAKER_07 1:23:48

Is it impossible?

SPEAKER_06 1:23:50

Yes, she is. Cut the call. Bye, people.