Session 17: Self Sabotage- When Fear Wears a Disguise

Why do we push away the things we want most?

In this episode, we explore the psychology of self-sabotage through Elide Lochan from Throne of Glass and Anthony Bridgerton from The Viscount Who Loved Me. One believes she’s a burden. The other believes love always ends in loss. Different stories, same pattern: fear quietly convincing us that safety matters more than happiness.

Together, we unpack how trauma shapes our choices, why self-protection can start looking like self-destruction, and what it takes to believe we’re worthy of the lives we keep talking ourselves out of.

Because sometimes the biggest obstacle in our story… is the one we’ve unknowingly become.

Disclaimer: We’re licensed therapists, but we’re not your therapists. Everything shared in this podcast is for conversation, reflection, and entertainment—not a substitute for therapy.

✨ Follow Once Upon a Session for new episodes exploring stories, psychology, and healing.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:12

Have you ever gotten exactly what you wanted and then somehow made it harder on yourself?

SPEAKER_03 0:17

Like putting off an opportunity you were excited about, talking yourself out of something before it even started, or convincing yourself it wasn't gonna work anymore. Or pushing someone away when you actually wanted them closer. Because sometimes people don't just sabotage goals, they sabotage relationships too.

SPEAKER_04 0:35

This is Once Upon a Session where two therapists try to bear a pro and to treat their hands, and every story becomes a session. I'm Vanessa. And I'm Nerisa. And I'm the one who talks myself out of things before they can go wrong.

SPEAKER_03 0:49

And I'm the one who jumps in first. Yep. And processes the consequences later. Sounds about right. Alright, just a quick note before we dive in. We're both licensed therapists, but we're not your therapist. Everything we share here is for conversation, reflection, and maybe a little inspiration.

SPEAKER_04 1:09

But it's not a substitute for therapy. If you're struggling, please reach out to a mental health professional who can give you the care and support you deserve.

SPEAKER_03 1:16

Now that you're all checked in, have a seat on our couch.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Hello.

SPEAKER_03 1:21

Hello. Welcome back. Welcome back to the sessions. The sessions. Alright. Hope you guys are still here with us. Yeah, what's going on? What's going on? And if you're new here, welcome. Welcome.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Yeah. Welcome.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

Welcome.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

I think we got some new people, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Yeah, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

In the UK.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

Well, thank you. Remember the one in the UK? Yeah. Yeah, got you. Remember the one in the UK. I don't know their name. I don't know what to say so. But yes, welcome to our UK fans. Don't judge my British accent. Please judge it. Yeah, do Johnny. Alright, what's going on with life, with work, with books? Everything's good. Yeah, have I sabotaged anything lately? I don't know. I guess we'll get to it.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

I think I have. Yeah. Yeah. But it's okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:18

Yeah. Self-sabotage is a huge theme in therapy.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

Like all the time, constantly. And we all do it. Um, yeah, nothing's new in life, nothing's new in work, and nothing's new but Cachuay Pepe. We're still trucking along.

SPEAKER_04 2:40

Things are new, but like we just recorded, so yeah. Just if you want to know how we're doing today, go back to last week's episode. Yeah, exactly. Wow, what a good way to get people to like listen, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:54

Because oh my god, can you believe what happened? Because you gotta go back to fun. Yeah, it was so good. There were some crazy moments in the last episode. I don't even know what the last episode was.

SPEAKER_04 3:08

Oh, the one we just did. Yeah, it didn't even come out yet. We just recorded it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:14

But hope you guys liked funnier coping because that one was so funny.

SPEAKER_04 3:18

Which one was that? Class Comm? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:20

Sorry, I don't know why I make it so official. Funnier coping.

SPEAKER_04 3:24

Funny or funnier coping.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

All right. So let's get into our self-sabotage question.

SPEAKER_04 3:30

Okay, so what's your personal self-sab? What's your personal self-sabotage specialty?

SPEAKER_03 3:38

You're trying to sabotage my moments?

unknown 3:40

No.

SPEAKER_03 3:41

Um, okay, my personal self-sabotage specialty is that I get way too comfortable with things to the point where like I start ignoring flags that I should be paying attention to. And then I have too much anxiety to do anything about it. So I just stay stuck in the same situation with whatever it is. So yeah, I sabotage my ability to like try to do the right thing for myself.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:21

And I did it for the very long time. And you know what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_04 4:27

Yes, yes, I do. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

Too comfortable. Don't ever get too comfortable with anything, people. You just don't. And don't ever like try to convince yourself of needing to do anything. Because then you should not be doing it.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

You gotta read between the lines.

SPEAKER_03 4:47

Yes, exactly. Okay. What's something you know would improve your life that you keep avoiding?

SPEAKER_04 4:57

Well, I feel like overall, I would say it's like time management. Okay. You know, I'm like always late, just chronically late to things. And it's not like I'm doing anything. It's not like I don't wear makeup, but it's like don't explain it to me. I'm always waiting. Yeah. I know. But it's you know, it's just a matter of if I got up and did the thing when I was supposed to do the thing. Because I'm gonna eventually do it anyway. Now I'm doing it with anxiety. Yeah. You know, and I know that. It's not like it's my first time doing it. I choose to do it every day. So what is that rush that I want? Like, why am I constantly doing that? Are you getting a rush? Sometimes. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:44

Fair.

SPEAKER_04 5:45

Yeah. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know what's going on, but it's really self-sabotage because then I get up and I'm rushing, I'm like, oh, I could have put on something cuter because I had more time just to like relax or whatever. And I don't know what's stopping me.

SPEAKER_03 6:00

Also, like people who know you, like, now know. Like, are you okay with them being like, oh, she's gonna be late anyway? So it's just like what I'm feeling like. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:11

When I'm driving to work, and I'm like, oh, what if something's going on right now? And I need to be there and I need to be a part of it, and someone's looking for me, and then I start getting anxious, and I'm like, okay, but if I did the same thing and I'm alive, I'm doing it, why couldn't I have done that an hour ago? And I wake up at like four something every day. It's not like I wake up late, right?

SPEAKER_03 6:31

It's just I lay there or do whatever and get comfortable anyway. Well, it's gonna be hard to get out of bed now with you.

SPEAKER_04 6:40

Yeah, but menu bed. Menu bed.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:45

Okay, just work on it. That's it. Yeah, well, today we're talking about self-sabotage, if you couldn't tell.

SPEAKER_03 6:51

Yep, and all the ways people unintentionally get in the way of their own goals, happiness, healing, and relationships. We're talking about procrastination, perfectionism, avoidance, fear of failure, fear of success, and also the relationship side of self-sabotage, pushing people away, avoiding vulnerability, and struggling to trust good things when they finally show up.

SPEAKER_04 7:16

And most of the time it isn't about laziness or lack of motivation.

SPEAKER_03 7:21

It's about fear showing up in disguise. Oh my god, do you feel like your thing is because of laziness or lack of motivation?

SPEAKER_00 7:29

No. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:31

That's not it. I don't think so either. I don't think you're lazy.

SPEAKER_04 7:35

I think I genuinely like the rush. I like that rush of okay, now I need to pressure. Now I need to like figure it out. It's now or never. Like I need that, but I mean like I've had such a like a life of like rush and um what's that word? Where it's like urgency? No. Oh. But yeah, urgency. Mm-hmm. It's gonna be like last episode when I figured out the word disclaimer. Yeah, that felt good. It was like a three-week release or some shit. Like it was a lot. Something like adrenaline. It's like adrenaline. Yeah, yeah. So like it's like I've lived like with a lot of adrenaline, like throughout like my first career. So now it's sometimes I it just feels too bland, and I need that rush of that makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_03 8:29

That sense of urgency. Yeah. Well, you know, the positive thing is you're getting the rush from that and not substances.

SPEAKER_04 8:37

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_03 8:39

So yeah, yeah, it'd be worse.

SPEAKER_04 8:42

So when people hear self-sabotage, they usually imagine someone intentionally ruining their own their own sentence. Um, when people hear self-sabotage, they usually imagine someone intentionally ruining their own life.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

But psychologically, that's rarely what's happening.

SPEAKER_04 9:01

Most self-sabotaging behaviors. Yes, I'd love it. Keep going. Most self-sabotage and behaviors begin as attempts to protect ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 9:13

To protect ourselves from rejection, embarrassment, failure, disappointment, vulnerability, uncertainty, or loss.

SPEAKER_04 9:22

Because if you've been hurt before, your brain starts looking for ways to make sure it never happens again.

SPEAKER_03 9:28

And unfortunately, sometimes that protection becomes the very thing holding people back.

SPEAKER_04 9:33

And that's why self-sabotage can show up as procrastination.

SPEAKER_03 9:37

Because if you never fully try, then you never have to find out whether you might fail. Wow, that's so true.

SPEAKER_04 9:43

It can show up as perfectionism.

SPEAKER_03 9:47

Because if nothing ever feels good enough, you never have to risk putting yourself out there.

SPEAKER_04 9:52

And it can show up in relationships too.

SPEAKER_03 9:54

Which is where a lot of people don't realize it's happening.

SPEAKER_04 9:57

When intimacy starts feeling real, vulnerability becomes unavoidable.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Unavoil. Yeah, I stand by that. Okay. And for people who see no, it's fine. And for people becomes unavailable. Unavoidable. I just got leaving on a volleyball. Out of olive oil. We've become out of olive oil.

SPEAKER_04 10:29

Vulnerability becomes unavoidable.

SPEAKER_03 10:34

And for people who associate closeness with rejection, abandonment, criticism, or loss, that can feel terrifying. So some people pull away, some people become hyper-independent. Some people stop communicating. And some start looking for reasons the relationship won't work.

SPEAKER_04 10:52

And some people leave before they can be left.

SPEAKER_03 10:55

Because if you're the one ending it, you never have to experience being rejected.

SPEAKER_04 11:00

One of the biggest misconceptions about self-sapote.

unknown 11:05

Self-sabotage.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Sucker and such. Suffering suffering. Is it suffering or suffering? I think suffering makes more sense.

SPEAKER_04 11:20

Um one of the biggest misconceptions about self-sabotage is that people don't care.

SPEAKER_03 11:27

But often it's exactly the opposite.

SPEAKER_04 11:30

They care so much that the possibility of loss feels overwhelming.

SPEAKER_03 11:34

So they try to control the outcome before it can hurt them.

SPEAKER_04 11:38

And unfortunately, that protection often creates the exact thing they were trying to avoid.

SPEAKER_03 11:44

The failed goal, the missed opportunity, the damaged relationship. Self-sabotage isn't always about destroying something good. Sometimes it's about protecting yourself from the possibility of losing it. Wow. This is like so wild.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:03

It's so accurate.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Mm-hmm. I agree.

SPEAKER_03 12:06

It's so accurate, and we've all done it. We've all done it to protect ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:12

From something, from someone, from a relationship, from a situation. We've all done it.

SPEAKER_04 12:18

And like now we can see it in these characters that we read about.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

And we can call it out with our clients. Yeah. Because I think that's one of the that's one of the difficult things to point out to someone, I feel like, is that you're self-sabotaging because they don't realize it.

SPEAKER_04 12:39

And then when you point it out, they're like, oh, that's that's they're not gonna want to take responsibility, take the blame for that. Because then especially if they're pointing the finger and you're saying, no, you're actually getting in your own way, yeah. Now the blame is on them. Mm-hmm. And they can't handle it.

SPEAKER_03 12:56

They can't handle it, right? Right. Yeah, it can't always be everybody around you, guys.

SPEAKER_04 13:02

The best case scenario is if you're self-sabotaging, is that you really understand that you're self-sabotaging. I agree. Best case scenario. I agree with that. You're just you're here, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_03 13:16

And we know when we're doing it. We just again we don't want to take responsibility. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:23

Well, keep keep doing it and see what happens.

SPEAKER_04 13:26

Yeah. But fiction actually, they um absolutely love a self-sabotaging character.

SPEAKER_03 13:33

Yes, they do, because they're usually standing directly in the way of their own happiness.

SPEAKER_04 13:38

Yeah, and honestly, some of the most frustrating moments in books and TV happen when characters finally get what they've wanted.

SPEAKER_03 13:44

And then immediately start making decisions that threaten to destroy it. Hate it.

SPEAKER_04 13:50

A lot of self-sabotaging characters struggle with worthiness.

SPEAKER_03 13:53

They don't believe they deserve love, happiness, success, forgiveness, or belonging. Okay, so when those things finally show up, they push them away, question them, or convince themselves they won't last. Some characters self-sabotage through avoidance, some through impulsivity, some through self-destruction, and some by choosing what's familiar over what's healthy. I've done all of them.

SPEAKER_04 14:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:18

Because familiar pain can feel safer than unfamiliar happiness.

SPEAKER_03 14:22

Ooh, yeah, that line hit. Even when that happiness is exactly what they've always wanted. I just feel really targeted. Well, I'm glad it's some familiar.

SPEAKER_04 14:34

And some of the most compelling character arcs happen when characters finally realize they're the ones standing in their own way.

SPEAKER_03 14:41

Because the story stops being about whether they can defeat an external obstacle and becomes about whether they can overcome themselves.

SPEAKER_04 14:50

Yeah, and that's why self-sabotaging characters are so relatable.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

Because most people can look back at some point in their lives and recognize themselves in these choices. Some villains threaten the story from the outside. And some characters almost destroy it from the inside. Wow, that's so true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:08

Alright, well, let's get onto it. Into it all about the couch.

SPEAKER_03 15:13

Yeah. Who's on the couch today?

SPEAKER_04 15:16

I'm bringing Alid Lockin from Throne of Glass. Elidae. You call her Eliday.

SPEAKER_03 15:22

Eliday and Ureen. Yes. And I'm bringing Anthony Bridgerton from Bridgerton.

SPEAKER_04 15:29

The son of Edmund, aka Charles. Oh George. AKA George. Yeah. I'm Charles. Yeah. So basically, we chose two characters who desperately wanted connection, love, and happiness.

SPEAKER_03 15:42

But repeatedly got in their own way while trying to protect themselves. Yes. Alright. You go first this time. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 15:51

So Elid, there was a lot, Elite, a lot, that I wanted to talk about, Elite. Mm-hmm. So just bear with me because this. You're just gonna feel me.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 16:04

Alright, so today we're talking about Elite. I mean, we're talking about self-sabotage through the lens of Elite Lockin from Throne of Glass. And Elite is one of the most realistic portrayals of quiet survival-based sabotage that I've seen in fantasy. Um, by the way, it's thrown of glass. Get your shit together. I'm not about to explain to you what the book is about.

SPEAKER_03 16:26

Yeah, we're we're skipping throne of glass.

SPEAKER_04 16:28

I'm not, there's no more interview caps. Yeah. Because if we do any more, we're like just telling you everything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:34

Like pick up a book.

SPEAKER_04 16:35

Honestly, they probably have read the whole book through us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:39

They've probably read it like long before we did. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 16:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 16:43

No, I'm saying like they're reading it as they're listening to us. Like they're getting the book. It's like an audiobook. Oh surprise.

SPEAKER_04 16:52

Alright. Okay, so because her self-sabotage doesn't look chaotic or dramatic. It looks adaptive. It looks responsible. It looks like somebody who learned very early that relying on other people could become dangerous. For anyone unfamiliar with her character, Alid grows up in an incredibly traumatic and emotionally unsafe environment. Her parents are murdered, her family line is targeted, and she ends up under the control of her uncle Vernon, who is genuinely horrific to her. He isolates her, emotionally abuses her, controls her environment, constantly reinforces helplessness, and treats her more like a possession than a person. On top of all that, Elite has an injured foot from an old injury that never healed correctly. So physically, she spends much of her time like feeling vulnerable too. I actually think that physical vulnerability becomes psychological. That's important for her character because Elite spends years surviving in environments where she's underestimated, trapped, dependent on unsafe people, and forced to stay hyper-aware of everyone around her. She learns how to survive by being observant and staying careful. Yeah, she becomes incredibly emotionally intelligent because of it. She knows how to read people, how to adapt, and how to make herself smaller when she needs to survive. And I don't even think she can read, right? No. Yeah, she can. She can. But the problem is that those survival strategies don't just disappear once safety finally shows up. And that's where the self-sabotage starts becoming really psychologically interesting. Even after Elite escapes and starts surrounding herself with people who genuinely care about her, people with literal magic power, resources, and loyalty, she still struggles to fully lean into support. One of the clearest examples of this is her foot. She's literally surrounded by magical people who potentially could help her, and she still doesn't really ask. She minimizes her pain, adapts around it, and keeps functioning. That feels incredibly psychologically real because people who spend long periods of time surviving without safe support often become deeply uncomfortable with dependency. They learn that needing things feel dangerous, so instead of asking for help, they overcompensate through self-reliance. I think Ali genuinely struggles to believe she deserves to fully take up space in other people's care. Even in her relationship with Lorcan, who is literally obsessed with her and repeatedly chooses her over and over again, Ali still struggles to fully settle into emotional safety because for someone in her story, attachment itself feels risky. Okay, the presenting concerns would include fear-based self-sabotaging behaviors within relationships, chronic hypervigilance, difficulty trusting, emotional safety, hyperindependence, emotional guardedness, and deeply internalized beliefs around worthiness and vulnerability. She also demonstrates strong anticipatory anxiety around abandonment and disappointment once emotional closeness. I think that's what it's called now. Closeless. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Once emotional closeness becomes real. Okay, treatment goals for a lead would focus on increasing tolerance for emotional vulnerability, strengthening relational trust, reducing fear-based distancing behaviors, and helping her develop a more secure sense of self-worth outside of survival. There would also be a lot of attachment work around receiving care, asking for help, and recognizing when self-protection is quietly turning into self-sabotage. Interventions would likely include trauma-informed therapy, attachment focused work, emotional regulation strategies, and reflective exploration around hypervigilance, abandonment fears, and worthiness. Expected outcomes would hopefully include increased emotional trust, greater comfort receiving support, reduced fear-based distancing, and stronger ability to remain emotionally present without immediately shifting into survival mode.

SPEAKER_03 20:52

Yeah, I'm just thinking about her because we're reading about her right now. And just I'm watching her just from that, like you know what I loved is when she sorry, I just got so loud, but I just remembered. I loved when um she was pretending like she didn't know anything and like she was just like some quiet girl in the back of the room. Yeah, yeah. And like you realize like she's quick and she's smart and she's on top of it and she's observing, you know.

SPEAKER_04 21:20

And then when she went down to the cellar, the basement thing, and she was like watching the other girl laundry maid.

SPEAKER_03 21:28

Yeah, she was just so smart, and I love how like Manon just like kind of took her under her wing essentially, and she was like, Yeah, are you like a black bleak or black yeah, was it a blue blood? Sorry, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:46

The black bleak, blue blood.

SPEAKER_03 21:47

Yeah, and I just love that, and I love even how Abraxos like saw the chain on her ankle. Yeah. Like, oh, I know what that feels like, you know what I mean? Yeah, and even

SPEAKER_04 22:01

Oh, but when her and Lorkin, Lorcan was the first one who put the magic brace on her ankle so she could walk straight, and she was like, Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 22:10

Yeah. Yeah. I just I think I just left off where they were like um sharing the tent together.

SPEAKER_04 22:17

Oh, where I am, they're still she's sleeping with the women and he's still drawing strings. Drawing strings.

SPEAKER_03 22:24

But yeah, I just love their relationship too. When like mind you, Lorcan is like this gigantic man. I love him. And she's like this fragile girl, you know, with like a broken ankle. And like, oh my god. Oh and then in in Kingdom of Ash, when she like oh yeah. Okay, anyway, yeah, we can talk about Ella Day all day long. It's Ella Day. Alright, well I'm gonna create my own fan base. Yes, please. My fan base of people who mispronounce things. Alright, let's move on to Anthony Bridgerton. From the book The Viscount, The Viscount.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

The Viscount.

SPEAKER_03 23:10

The Viscount Who Loved Me by Julia Quinn. Great book. Love the book. Love the book.

SPEAKER_04 23:17

Did you love the book more than the the Bridgerton, or did you love Bridgerton more than the book?

SPEAKER_03 23:23

I'm trying to remember. I've loved all the Bridgerton books more than I've loved like the shows. But I love the shows too. Yeah, me too, same. So yeah. Okay. Books are always better, right? Mm-hmm. Alright, Anthony Bridgerton, the eldest Bridgerton sibling, and the Viscount of his family, has spent much of his life associating love with grief, responsibility, and eventual loss. After witnessing the sudden death of his father, George.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

George.

SPEAKER_03 23:52

Edmund, at a young age, Anthony becomes emotionally shaped by fear long before he fully understands it. Much of his adulthood becomes driven by duty control, emotional restraint, and the belief that vulnerability inevitably leads to devastation. While he deeply desires intimacy and connection, he repeatedly sabotages emotional closeness the moment it begins to feel real or emotionally unsafe. Throughout the story, Anthony attempts to approach relationships logically rather than emotionally, convincing himself that controlled attachment is safer than genuine love. His connection with Kate forces him to confront the reality that much of his self-protection is actually unresolved grief and fear disguised as responsibility. His story explores grief-based emotional avoidance, anticipatory loss, hyper-responsibility, and what happens when someone becomes so afraid of losing people that they love that they stop allowing themselves to fully love at all. And you know, I always wondered if I don't remember if this was in the book, but I know it was in the show, when he like was fooling around with the opera singer girl. Like I wonder if part of him like did it because he knew like he couldn't really be with her because she wasn't like someone of you know, whatever. And that was done that if she was a lady. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was this part of his self-sabotage, too, right? Yeah. Uh he's so interesting. Um, okay, presenting problem behaviors, pushing away emotional intimacy when relationships become vulnerable, using control and logic to avoid emotional honesty, sabotaging connection out of fear of loss and vulnerability, emotionally shutting down instead of expressing needs directly. Core themes, grief-based fear of attachment, self-sabotage through emotional avoidance, hyper control as emotional self-protection, and love becoming associated with loss and devastation. Core belief if I never fully let myself love someone, losing them won't destroy me. And that's real life facts that many of you can relate to. Many of us, all of us, the people, can relate to.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

We the people.

SPEAKER_03 26:12

We the people. Treatment goals and interventions, increase emotional awareness and direct communication, reduce avoidance-based relationship behaviors, challenge beliefs connecting vulnerability with danger, build tolerance for emotional intimacy and uncertainty. What progress would look like um communicates emotions honestly instead of suppressing them, tolerates vulnerability without retreating into control, allows closeness without sabotaging connection, and recognizes that emotional intimacy is not weakness or danger. This sounds like um treatment goals and interventions for like real people that I'm working with.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:55

Because really, honestly, yeah, no, that is.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:58

But it's like, again, like I said earlier, like self-sabotage is such a huge theme, you know. Um, all right. The outcome for him, Anthony's growth, is not about becoming emotionally fearless, it's about recognizing how much of his life has been shaped by unresolved grief and anticipatory fear. For years he convinced himself that emotional control was maturity and that avoiding deep attachment would somehow protect him from pain. But the real shift in his healing begins when he realizes that avoiding vulnerability is costing him the very connection he wants most. His story ultimately explores the difference between protecting yourself emotionally and emotional emotionally isolating yourself out of fear. Yeah. God, and just like I'm just thinking about him and like him and Kate having that amazing chemistry, and then he's like, but no, but no, and then he like just acts like he hates her.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:56

And then they have that moment in the room where he's like he said something. Even the way he told her he loved her, it was like with such disgust, but like it was like, I love you. I forgot, you know, I forgot what he said.

SPEAKER_04 28:10

I like that it wasn't like as far as the book versus the show, whatever, I just like that it didn't feel it felt like they fell in love, or Edwina wasn't a problem in the books for me. Right. Like it was only in the show, and I get it because it makes it more like a scandal. Yeah, but I like that in the books it was more so he was he made a decision. He was like, you know, this is the one.

SPEAKER_03 28:36

Yeah, you're the bane of my existence. He said, You were the bane of my existence and the object of all my desires.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:45

Even the way he confesses love is so self-sabotagey.

SPEAKER_04 28:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:50

Cause he can't like fully, you know what I mean? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:52

But look what he did, like, even with the flowers, like in the show when he came to make sure she was okay. Yeah. You know, he went when he finally went.

SPEAKER_03 29:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:03

That whole back and forth about him not wanting to go and he only visited that one time and then never again. So then when she woke up and she asked, you know, did did he visit? Mm-hmm. It was like, no, he didn't go, even though he should have.

SPEAKER_03 29:17

He should have, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:20

But you know, eventually he got over all of it. Yeah. He opened up his heart, and they all lived happily ever after. It's time for the treatment team meeting. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 29:30

All right, treatment team meeting. Clipboards out. Because self-sabotage doesn't happen in a vacuum. It usually develops for a reason. What was the reason for that? What you just did. What? Because I pretty much said alright, treatment team meeting.

SPEAKER_03 29:49

Because like I didn't, I don't realize that's what you're saying. I'm just talking out loud. Hello.

SPEAKER_04 29:55

If they walked into our offices, okay go so if a lead walked into my office, my first impression would be she better not be stumbling in here. By now, if you're in therapy, I'm gonna need you to stand up to whomever and be like, fix my leg with your magic. Yeah, exactly. Get an ankle burden. Okay. But my first impression would probably be this is someone who has learned very early that survival depends on being useful, observant, and invisible when necessary. She'd likely present as guarded but polite, capable, independent, the kind of client who minimizes everything because compared to what she survived, most things feel not bad enough to talk about. And I'd immediately wonder how much energy she spends making sure other people never realize how scared she is. Immediate clinical impressions. Alid gives chronic survival mode. She appears resourceful and emotionally intelligent, but underneath that there's significant hypervigilance. She scans constantly, plans ahead, expects danger. A lot of what initially looks like independence feels more like protective adaptation. Attachment-wise, she feels fearful, avoidant. She wants closeness, but she also deeply distrusts it. And much of her identity appears organized around survival, not necessarily around preference, joy, or self-concept.

SPEAKER_03 31:24

Alright, if Anthony walked into my office, I think the immediate question would be how much of his behavior how much of his behavior How much of his behavior is actually grief-driven fear disguised as responsibilities? Um, because on the surface he looks controlled, logical, and emotionally composed, but underneath that is someone deeply terrified of emotional devastation. So clinically he presents as emotionally avoidant, highly controlled, and extremely uncomfortable with vulnerability. But underneath that control is unresolved grief, chronic anticipatory anxiety, emotional rigidity, and someone who feels emotionally responsible for preventing future pain before it even happens. And I would say, what a distinguished gentleman. Look at his attire. Mm-hmm. Then I'd say it's two 2026. Put on a suit.

SPEAKER_04 32:23

Alright, so what they'd say the problem is versus what you know it is.

SPEAKER_03 32:27

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 32:28

Okay. So Elite would probably describe the issue as survival, staying safe, staying useful, not becoming vulnerable enough for people to hurt her. But clinically, the bigger issue feels like safety deprivation. Because when you spend years learning that dependence creates danger, self-protection becomes your personality. She doesn't just struggle to trust people, she struggles to believe rest is safe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:57

Yeah. That's so accurate for her. Right. I think Anthony would say things like I'm being practical. Anthony? Oh yeah. I'd see I switched up. I think Anthony would say things like I'm being practical or I'm doing what makes sense. But the reality is that he's trying to emotionally engineer relationships that feel survivable instead of emotionally honest.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

Yeah. What we'd actually work on first. All the noises. Yeah, yeah. Alright, guys. We read.

SPEAKER_04 33:33

You should hear us reading.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

They should hear us reading though.

SPEAKER_04 33:38

We make so much noise when we'll have a watch party one day and you'll hear. Oh yeah, we can all read together. Okay. Alright. So what you'd actually work on first. So first for me, um, safety, not relationships, not romance, not even trauma processing yet. Because before anything else, a lead needs to answer what happens if you stop surviving long enough to exist. From there, nervous system regulation, reducing hyperindependence, identifying safe versus familiar dynamics, emotional expression, and building tolerance for receiving help.

SPEAKER_03 34:16

Yeah. For Anthony, I think the first thing we'd work on is helping him recognize when control becomes emotional avoidance. Because Anthony doesn't just avoid vulnerability, he intellectualizes it.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 34:33

Right, counter transference.

SPEAKER_04 34:35

Counter transference.

SPEAKER_03 34:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 34:38

So working with a lead, I'd probably feel protective, even though like I it's like I kind of don't want to, but I would just because like same. Ugh, just come here, you know.

SPEAKER_03 34:50

Let me just scrap your leg for you or something.

SPEAKER_04 34:54

Clients who survive impossible things while asking for almost nothing naturally pull for caretaking.

SPEAKER_03 35:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:01

You know.

SPEAKER_03 35:01

Oh my god, yes.

SPEAKER_04 35:02

Yeah. I'd also have to watch for reinforcing her independence too much. Because people who appear strong often get rewarded for staying isolated. And Elite is very easy to accidentally praise for coping mechanisms that are actually keeping her lonely. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:22

Wow, yeah. I think that safety is very important for her. Yeah. So that's a great like place to start. Or not start, but a good, like, it's that counter-transference feeling. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Um, so with Anthony, I would probably be frustrated watching him repeatedly sabotage the exact thing that he wants. And that's actually a common thing. Like, I get frustrated very not very easily. I get frustrated when I see people coming back every week saying the same thing after we just went over it and we're like, okay, so what are we gonna do differently, right? So then it's like you see them doing the same thing, and then sometimes they're scared to come back and tell you. Like, I've had clients be like, I'm really embarrassed to tell you this or this, and I'm like, Why like why? You know, what does that embarrassment mean about you? Because it's me, I'm not judging you. I'm here to kind of you know, go here. She goes like Yeah, what was I saying? Yeah, so they can't the same thing every week, and it's like, don't be embarrassed to tell me that you did the thing again. Like, ask yourself why you did the thing again, like what was going on? So we process it, and then you know, again, here you go again, like three, four times they're coming back, and then I'm like, okay, we've been talking about the same thing for several weeks now. So, what's going on? What's getting in the way, really? And then, like, you know, so it's that. So that's kind of a thing that I get frustrated with in therapy.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:52

Because it's like, oh my, what the fuck don't you get already? Like, stop doing the same shit, you're getting the same result. But like, you know, I don't react that way, obviously, because I'm professional, but I'm human.

SPEAKER_04 37:03

Yeah. But it's a good opportunity to like point the thing out and be like, Look, this is what you did last week. This is what you did, this is what you said you were gonna do, but this is what you did. Exactly. And then if you just show, like, ever look, they're like, Oh, I did it so many times, and you could be like, Yeah, and you could have corrected it so many times.

SPEAKER_03 37:21

Like, and I think I think even this year, like I had one client that kept saying, like, all right, this week I'm gonna blah blah. And then, like, it was like last week, and I was like, Okay, you've been telling me the same thing for six months, yeah. And then they're like, Holy shit, it's been six months that I'm doing the same thing. I'm like, Yeah, yeah. And then they're like then they had their moment, they realize, like, oh, you know. Um, but yeah, but with that said, there'd also be a lot of empathy because underneath all the control is someone who genuinely believes emotional safety is temporary. Um so yeah, that's my spiel on that.

SPEAKER_04 38:05

Okay, so our interventions. Okay, definitely trauma work, attachment work too. Um, I'd probably lean into parts work because so much of a lead feels organized around protective roles. Um, there'd also be a lot of work around identity development. Who are you when survival isn't the full-time job? And exposure around dependence, not dependence is weakness, dependence as connection.

SPEAKER_03 38:35

Okay. That sounds similar to Anthony as well. Um, I think there would be a lot of focus on grief processing because his dad, you know, huge loss for him. Uh, emotional awareness, attachment patterns, and helping him tolerate vulnerability without immediately retreating into control. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:59

Hard truths. All right. Surviving alone kept you alive, but continuing to live like you're alone may be keeping you from feeling safe now. Yeah. Yeah. Because sometimes protection outlives the danger.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Yeah. You know, it's so true. Wow. Yeah. Y'all hear that one? Protection outlives the danger.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:24

And then what you're just stuck doing the same thing. Exactly. Mm-hmm. The hard truth for Anthony is that avoiding vulnerability doesn't actually protect you from pain, it just guarantees emotional loneliness. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:41

Alright. Well, how do we bring it back to real life for the people?

SPEAKER_04 39:46

Okay, so I think people can connect with a lead because they know what it feels like to become the reliable one, the capable one, the one who never asked for help because asking never felt safe. And a lot of adults are still asking if I stop holding everything together, who am I? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:06

Wow, that's so true. And again, going back to like what you were saying about like just avoiding it or not dealing with it, not taking responsibility for you know what you created.

SPEAKER_04 40:16

Yeah. And you had like Alita had nothing. Like she had no one, right? Her parents had to be.

SPEAKER_03 40:21

Nobody, nothing.

SPEAKER_04 40:22

And then her uncle was abusive and chained her up, locked her up. Like she literally couldn't rely on anyone. So I'm not even surprised.

SPEAKER_03 40:31

Why would you trust anyone? Why would you? You know, everyone you've known is either gone or hurt you. Yeah. Oh my god. And then her uncle was keeping her for that purpose. Disgusting. What a monster he is. Did he die yet? I don't think so. I don't think he died yet where we are. And I'm not this isn't spoiling anything because he deserves to die. Just like Arabin Hamill did. But I'm pretty sure I hope what? What? They're trying to hold you.

SPEAKER_04 41:05

Arabin Hamill.

SPEAKER_03 41:06

Yes. Arabin Hamel. What's his name?

SPEAKER_04 41:09

Arabin Hamel.

SPEAKER_03 41:11

Okay. You it's because I said a first and a last name?

SPEAKER_04 41:14

No.

SPEAKER_03 41:14

Oh, it's because I hate him. Oh god. Alright, it's time for the pain. The pain. The pain and the plot. The pain? The pain? The pain and the plot. Okay, what's your time? What's your moment?

SPEAKER_04 41:27

Alright, Alid. My moment is when Elede emotionally pulls away from Lorgan after the betrayal involving Ailen. Despite everything, they survived together and despite how deeply attached she has become to him. The pain spent most of her life learning that emotional dependence creates vulnerability, raised in environments shaped by control, emotional abuse, instability, and fear under her uncle Vernon, learned to survive through hypervigilance, emotional guardiness, and self-reliance, minimize her own needs when surrounded by people willing and able to help her. The shift. Alid finally experiences genual emotional safety and attachment with Lorcan, but the moment that connection feels emotionally threatened, her survival instincts activate immediately. Instead of leaning into vulnerability, she pulls away emotionally to protect herself first. Her nervous system begins preparing for abandonment before abandonment has fully happened. But over time something slowly changes. Instead of staying emotionally distant forever, Elite eventually chooses connection anyway.

SPEAKER_02 42:34

Hmm.

SPEAKER_04 42:34

Okay, and the plot, she spends most of her life emotionally preparing herself for loss before it can hurt her. She minimizes her needs, avoids dependence, and maintains emotional control through guardedness. So, like, even when probably these people came and killed their parents, you know, like she's probably on your guard your whole rest of your life. Like, I was supposed to be murdered too, maybe. Like, why didn't you know someone's gonna come get me? Just to have that feeling as a young child and you're just growing up, and she's like in solitary pretty much because Uncle Vernon had her locked up. Yeah. Um, but that's so true.

SPEAKER_03 43:13

Just physical Yeah, like being afraid for her physical safety too. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:21

Alright. So um the real emotional payoff comes later during the battle when Alid goes looking for Lorgan anyway. Because that moment represents the opposite of self-sabotage. Instead of protecting herself through distance, she moves towards attachment despite fear, grief, and vulnerability. And if Alid had continued relying entirely on emotional self protection, she likely would have reinforced the belief that vulnerability is unsafe and connection always ends in pain. Instead, her story slowly becomes about learning that fear and love can exist together, and that connection may still be worth choosing anyway. Like Lorcan is just out there. Oh, I love him.

SPEAKER_03 44:05

Yeah, and I love that moment when she chose to like save him, protect him. Like she really said. She said, I'm gonna take that risk because I love him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:17

But Lorcan is out here, like, he's like obsessed with her. Like when they get to that point. Like he's crossing continents for her. And she's still like, you know, let me prepare for a disaster just in case.

SPEAKER_03 44:30

Right. Alright. So my moment is when Anthony repeatedly denies his feelings for Kate while continuing to pursue Edwina instead. Horrible. Despite clearly emotionally unraveling, the deeper his connection with Kate becomes. Like you can see him unraveling. And he still is like, I'm gonna ignore these feelings. Because he felt such a strong sense of duty and all that. Right. And Kate, like, in in the show at least, like she had her own issues too with like whatever.

SPEAKER_04 45:07

Yes. You know, so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:09

Anyway, the pain, associating deep love with inevitable grief and loss, trying to choose emotional safety over emotional honesty, sabotaging intimacy the second vulnerability becomes real, and believing control can prevent future heartbreak. The shift, Anthony admits his feelings instead of suppressing them. He stops using duty and control to emotionally avoid intimacy. Vulnerability becomes safer than emotional self-protection, and love becomes something he experiences instead of manages. The plot, less emotional confusion and self-sabotage within the relationship dynamic, healthier emotional communication and intimacy. Anthony begins confronting his grief and fear of vulnerability earlier, and love becomes rooted in emotional honesty instead of emotional control. This man really said, I'd rather emotionally implode than admit I'm in love. And like I guess, you know, he eventually does go with his feelings and does all the things and they end up together, which is beautiful. And he feels safe in his love. Yeah, and so it worked out.

SPEAKER_04 46:20

And it's such a beautiful love story.

SPEAKER_03 46:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:23

Like it really is.

SPEAKER_03 46:25

Yeah, it is. Was the pain worth the plot? Well, I feel like yeah, because he had to go through all of this to feel safe where he ended up and to realize and then obviously like no pain is ever worth anything. But it shaped him and it helped him and it pushed him. And imagine he never like said anything about his feelings about Kate. He would be in a situation where he wasn't really happy. Yeah. That would have been the real sabotage.

SPEAKER_04 46:57

Um cricket ball thing. Exactly. Yeah. And miserable with his wife wasn't competitive like him. And yeah. Not a good fit for the family environment. Exactly. Or w for their current family dynamics.

SPEAKER_03 47:15

Yeah. And they're so cute together now, and they have a baby.

SPEAKER_00 47:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:20

In the most recent episode series, season. You know what I mean. Alright, is it time for fun?

SPEAKER_04 47:29

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_03 47:30

Alright, fun time.

SPEAKER_04 47:32

Alright. What are we ruining today? Choose your self-sabotage fighter.

SPEAKER_03 47:38

Unfortunately, they're all available. Alright, so the self-sabotage fighters, we have overthinking, procrastination, avoidance, perfectionism, people pleasing, imposter syndrome, fear of failure, fear of success, emotional shutdown, and hyperindependence. That's a lot.

SPEAKER_04 47:58

Yeah. But let's go. Alright, relationship addition. Mm-hmm. Which one do you think caused this?

SPEAKER_03 48:05

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 48:06

So you meet someone amazing and immediately start looking for reasons it won't work. Um I think maybe I'm saying overthinking.

SPEAKER_03 48:16

It could be also fear of failure. Uh you spend three weeks drafting a text and never send it. That one overthinker. I think overthinking, avoidance, yeah, procrastination, fear of failure.

SPEAKER_04 48:32

Yeah. Okay, you convince yourself they don't care before they have the chance to show you they do.

SPEAKER_03 48:38

I think that's fear of failure. No, not fear of failure.

SPEAKER_04 48:42

Overthinking?

SPEAKER_03 48:44

Yeah, I agree with that. All right.

SPEAKER_04 48:46

Maybe even imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_03 48:48

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 48:49

Like in a weird way.

SPEAKER_03 48:50

Yeah, I get that. Okay. Alright. You keep your needs to yourself and then feel disappointed when nobody meets them.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

Emotional shit.

SPEAKER_03 48:58

Emotional shutdown.

SPEAKER_04 49:00

Yep. Yeah. Okay. You pull away the second things start feeling serious. Me.

SPEAKER_03 49:08

Work edition. Alright. You don't apply because you assume someone else is more qualified. Yeah. I think that's fear failure.

SPEAKER_04 49:18

Yeah. And also imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_03 49:22

Yeah, yes, you're right.

SPEAKER_04 49:23

You spend hours perfecting something, nobody asks to be perfect.

SPEAKER_03 49:27

That's perfectionism and overthinking.

SPEAKER_04 49:29

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 49:30

Mm-hmm. Okay. You keep saying you're gonna start that project next week. Procrastination, avoidance, fear of failure. Fear of success.

SPEAKER_04 49:41

Yeah. You have a great idea, but never share it. Maybe overthinking is my first.

SPEAKER_02 49:47

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 49:49

Or fear of failure. Because like if you share the idea and people are like, that's stupid. You know, yeah. You get positive feedback and immediately dismiss it. Who does that? Just kidding.

SPEAKER_04 50:03

Maybe I would say like it could be a little overthinking, maybe even like some avoidance.

SPEAKER_03 50:12

Um I'm thinking emotional shutdown too.

SPEAKER_04 50:16

Fear of success.

SPEAKER_03 50:17

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 50:18

Yeah. All right, some life stuff. You're unhappy in a situation, but convince yourself it's easier to stay than make a change.

SPEAKER_03 50:28

That's me, and I'm gonna tell you right now. Procrastination, avoidance, fear of being alone.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 50:37

Yeah. Okay. You don't tell anyone you're struggling because you should be able to handle it yourself. You just got the wrong people in your corner if you feel like that. Yeah. That so that is get new friends. Yeah. Get new people.

SPEAKER_04 50:54

Yeah. You avoid conversation for so long that the problem gets significantly worse. Oh my god, that was me. Avoidance, procrastination. Yeah. What else? Wow. Overthinking, procrastinating, avoidance, perfectionism, people pleasing, imposter syndrome. That is all of them. All of them. That one is all of them.

SPEAKER_03 51:17

Wow. Yeah. Hopefully this brings you clarity. Wow. No, I know. You already have the clarity. Yeah, this is old. This is old news.

SPEAKER_04 51:28

Like last week, me.

SPEAKER_03 51:29

Yeah. You spend so much time trying to make the perfect choice that you never make a choice at all.

SPEAKER_04 51:38

Oh my god, what is this? My fucking ingredients on the back of my body.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

Well, maybe like you self-sabotage. Self-sabotage, yeah, I forgot. Well, I got borderline personality. So what do you want from me?

SPEAKER_03 51:54

That's also a hint. If you sell sabotage a lot, you might have BPD. Yeah. Just look into it. It's treatable. With some DBT. DBT. All right. BPD. You keep helping everyone else while you quietly burn yourself out. People pleasing. Period. Period. Next. Chaos.

SPEAKER_04 52:16

Alright. You create an entire worst-case scenario in your head and react to it as if it already happened. Yes, that's me.

SPEAKER_03 52:23

Overthinking.

SPEAKER_04 52:24

Every Monday morning on my way to work.

SPEAKER_03 52:27

Overthinking and all of the above. Yeah. You say I'm fine. Oh Lord. And then become mysteriously unavailable for three business days. Well, you tell me. That's part of life. You just need space. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 52:47

You refuse help, then complain, nobody helps you. My mom. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:52

So what a-spend so long researching the decision that the opportunity. Oh my god, that was me with my Rothys the other day. I was like, oh, I want some Rothys, and then I'm like trying to pick out which ones I want. And by the time I decided what I want, the sale is over. So I ended up paying full price for it yesterday. Oh my god. When I got the same exact thing that was in my cart back when the sale was on. Oh my god. But it's whatever. Yeah. Roth these sponsor us. I'm about to be throwing your shoes in the washing machine. They're made from like a hundred percent. Or I I don't know, actually. I think they're made from water shoes. Just talk it.

SPEAKER_03 53:32

Yeah. Okay. You finally get what you've always wanted and suddenly lose interest. Oh my god. What is that called?

SPEAKER_04 53:43

My life, my life, my life.

SPEAKER_03 53:45

Yeah. Do you relate to all of these? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:47

I'm fucking self-sabotage.

SPEAKER_03 53:49

Yes, you are. And I'm what's the opposite of self-sabotage? Trigger fingering.

SPEAKER_04 53:55

But that could be self-sabotage too. It is, right?

SPEAKER_03 53:58

Because I'm trying to be perfect and not have any criticisms. And yeah, it's a different self-sabotage.

SPEAKER_04 54:06

You're just doing life different. Mm-hmm. Alright. Not anymore.

SPEAKER_03 54:09

No, I'm slowing down apparently.

SPEAKER_04 54:12

Alright. No explanations.

SPEAKER_03 54:15

Rapid fire. I hate it already. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 54:18

Okay. Which self-sabotage fighter caused this? A missed opportunity. Procrastination.

SPEAKER_03 54:25

Um avoidance. Overthinking, avoidance. Yeah. Fear of failure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:31

Unread text.

SPEAKER_03 54:33

Avoidance. Procrastination.

SPEAKER_04 54:36

Yeah. Overthinking.

SPEAKER_03 54:38

Yeah. Stayed too long. Story of my past life. Avoidance, procrastination, fear of loneliness. Uh fear of failure.

SPEAKER_04 54:51

Failure to launch.

SPEAKER_03 54:52

Failure to launch. All the above. Yeah. Left too early.

SPEAKER_04 54:56

What's that like? Hyperindependence. Hyperindependence. Emotional shutdown. Fear of success. Um and overthinking. We're the opposite. Even stay too long, left too early. That's crazy. That's us. Didn't ask for help. Well, didn't ask for help could be people pleasing. You know, you're just like trying to make it convenient. Like, oh, you know, I don't need anything. You you're fine. Like so. Yeah, I can see that in there. Um, talk yourself out of it. Overthinking.

SPEAKER_03 55:32

Overthinking, yeah. Oh, fumble the green flag. Got up in there. Fumble the green flag.

SPEAKER_00 55:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:43

What was that? That was um probably. It was fear of success because I'm like, okay, if this works, like this was a great scenario for me to be in. But if this works, I'm gonna be like living a different lifestyle and doing different things and like not ever really getting a chance to do anything for myself, like in a way. So it's like it would have worked, but then my whole life would have been different, and I didn't, you know.

SPEAKER_03 56:11

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 56:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:13

See, that's so funny because I would be like, Oh my god, like you fucked up, like you failed. Why did you fumble that green flag? Like, you know what I mean? How do we get along? How are we best friends? Because we're different, because we're different, but the same in some weird way. Alright, ignore good advice. You, you would do it all the time. Yeah, I know. That's avoidance. Yes, avoidance. Over number two, avoided the conversation. What's that called?

SPEAKER_04 56:42

Monday morning.

SPEAKER_03 56:45

Waited for the perfect time. Avoidance, procrastination. Yeah, there's no perfect time for anything.

SPEAKER_04 56:53

The time is now. Yeah. Self-fulfilling prophecy. Oh lord.

SPEAKER_03 56:58

Oh yeah. That's the one. That's the one. Mm-hmm. I don't have words. Just period. Yeah, just okay. I am. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:08

But just avoidance is a big one. Avoidance and procrastinating and overthinking. Mm-hmm. But I think it's the avoidance because then you're like, oh, I'm not gonna get it done, and then you don't get it done because you didn't fucking get up to do the thing. Yeah. Burned yourself out.

SPEAKER_03 57:25

People pleasing, probably.

SPEAKER_04 57:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:28

Let fear make the decision.

SPEAKER_03 57:31

I don't even know.

SPEAKER_04 57:33

Yeah, that could be that could go many ways.

SPEAKER_03 57:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:36

Yeah, but I guess avoidance.

SPEAKER_03 57:39

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay, assume the worse. Generational trauma.

SPEAKER_04 57:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:48

On to our next mini-game.

SPEAKER_04 57:49

Alright, welcome to That's Not What Your Therapist Said. A game about the advice we received. And the completely different message our brains somehow walk away with.

SPEAKER_03 57:58

Alright. Okay. One of us will read a statement and the other one will say what my brain heard.

SPEAKER_04 58:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 58:04

Okay. Go first.

SPEAKER_04 58:06

This is a dangerous game to play with me because like I can barely hear out of my left ear. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 58:12

Well, what did your brain hear? Not your ears.

SPEAKER_04 58:14

Well, my ears gotta go through. My brain goes through. Alright. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 58:19

Here we go. Alright. Let's see.

SPEAKER_04 58:21

What did the self-sabotaging brain hear?

SPEAKER_03 58:24

Okay. You deserve support. Okay, when you said that, my brain heard something's wrong with me.

SPEAKER_04 58:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 58:34

Yeah. You don't have to do everything yourself. What did your brain hear?

SPEAKER_04 58:39

My brain heard that like you're validating me somehow. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 58:46

Wow. See, I didn't even take you deserve support as validation. I took it as something's wrong with me. Yeah. And that goes back to my childhood trauma of always being criticized. Wow. It's okay to make mistakes. I fucked up. Alright. Um, you should communicate your needs.

SPEAKER_04 59:11

My brain heard that my needs are worth communicating. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 59:17

Yeah, like you're you're you deserve to be heard.

SPEAKER_04 59:20

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Okay. You can't control what other people think.

SPEAKER_03 59:25

What I heard is yes, I can. I just gotta like do the right thing. And then they'll think better.

SPEAKER_00 59:33

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 59:34

Mm-hmm. Alright. You deserve healthy relationships.

SPEAKER_04 59:41

What my brain heard was that I'm being called out for my unhealthy relationships.

SPEAKER_00 59:47

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:48

Fair.

SPEAKER_03 59:49

You don't have to earn rest. Um, my brain heard, yeah, you're absolutely right, because I love to do nothing all day long. So yeah. I don't need to earn my rest. Um, perfection isn't required.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:04

What my brain heard was that, like, maybe I wanted to be better, and someone is comforting me by saying that perfection isn't required.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:16

I like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:17

You can ask for help. Doesn't that sound the same as you deserve support?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:22

No. Okay, we'll see.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:24

That's where my brain went. Doesn't that sound the same as you deserve support?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:28

But like, even depending on how you say it, that's why I was like, you can ask for help. Like, you can ask for help. Like if something's going on with you, like you can ask for help. Somebody else doesn't have to come and help you.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:39

That's a really important point, also, is like how you say it, right? Yeah. Um, yeah, you can ask for help just like plain and simple. Yeah. Without a tone. I hear like um, like you don't need to do everything on your own. Like you can ask for help. So I guess I took that in a positive way.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:02

Alright. Um, you don't need to have everything figured out. I feel like I say that to you. That's why.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:11

Yeah, what my brain heard was that like I don't have everything figured out.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:16

Okay, I'm gonna stop saying that.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:18

Because that's not true. It's alright, Ella. Yeah. Okay. You can take up space.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:25

I heard like I matter. Yeah. So that's a good one. Okay. Not everyone is gonna like you.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:35

What I heard is that someone doesn't like me. Mm-hmm. You should be proud of your progress.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:43

Um I take that as I should be proud of my progress because somebody it's usually you saying that, right? So it's you recognizing that I've improved on something, and it's nice that somebody can recognize that and validate that. So yes. Okay. Right. You're allowed to set boundaries.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:09

What my brain heard was that like something's going on, and maybe I didn't set a boundary, and I'm trying to ask why people are crossing it.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:17

Okay. That's fair. Love that. Okay. Okay. Things can go well. Well, I heard that I mean it can go well. Yeah. What I heard in my brain is like I'm doubting something.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:35

And like somebody saying, Well, like things can go well. Like it doesn't have to be negative. Yeah. So yeah, that was my first what my brain heard. Alright, rapid fire. Okay. No thinking. Just emotional damage. All right, we'll go one for one. You go first. Trust yourself. Yeah. My brain heard. Yeah, trust yourself because you know you better. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:03

Alright. Be vulnerable.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:05

That I'm too um hardened right now. Okay. Let people help you.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:13

Um. Yeah, that I need to be more open to that. To people helping me if I need it. Alright, take the risk. Oh, I mean, that immediately means that like I don't take risks, which I don't ever, because I overthink everything and want to control the outcome. So yeah. Take the risk. Give yourself grace. I'm being too hard on myself. Okay. You are enough. I hear somebody telling me that because they feel like they can read that I don't feel that way about myself. Slow down. Um, maybe I'm moving too fast.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:52

That's not even for you. That should be for me. But okay. I have my moments, okay?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:59

When I'm up and I'm on some shit. It doesn't happen a lot, but when it does, like I'm really on it. Like that's how I ended up getting the job in Alaska. Remember? Oh, yeah. I had those three shots of espresso, those three extra shots.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:13

Okay, yes, you're right.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:14

Sometimes I wake up and I'm like super fucking manic.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:17

It's so rare with you though.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:18

Yeah, but when it happens, it's a big deal.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:20

Yeah. Okay, that's fair.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:22

Okay. Um, you don't need to be perfect.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:26

Yes, I do. What do you mean? I can't be anything but just be yourself.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:34

Yeah, because there's no one else I can be.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:37

Mm-hmm. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:40

You can do hard things.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:42

You've actually told me this before, and like I can, and I believe that now, because I have. Yes, you can and you did. Yep. Alright. Yeah, alright. Any wrap-up? Any wrap-up for the people for self-sabotage? Give us some wise words.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:03

Okay. You gotta hear me out. Mm-hmm. Self-sabotage is exactly what it sounds like. It's just sabotaging yourself. Why would you want to do that? It's like, why? Because when you eventually do the thing, you're gonna feel like an idiot because you're gonna be like, oh my god, it was not even that serious. You're you're gonna end up doing the thing anyway, so why not do it now? Yeah. Instead of staying in your own way or talk to the person or cut them off or walk away or literally whatever. Just do it now. Because if you're gonna eventually do it, why wait?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:41

Yeah, and like also, like you always told me this thing when I was going through some stuff.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:46

You're like, if you're not gonna do that thing, then stop saying it until you're ready to actually do it, because then you're just reinforcing the negative feeling you get when you don't complete that. Exactly. It's like even on Finch. I had um I had like two two little um goals that I had for myself for the day. And like I wasn't doing them as much anymore. So I just took them off because look obviously they're not a main priority for me right now. Right. But I don't want to see like that I didn't complete that goal today because it just makes me look like oh you forgot you didn't you couldn't handle it. Yeah, no, I get that.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:24

It's just clearly just not a priority right now. Yeah, I get that. Yeah, I do that too. I do that too. So I I totally get that. Yeah. Yeah, just do the thing. Because if you want to know the outcome and you're overthinking all the possible outcomes, you're not going to know that you're never gonna know unless you just do the thing. And listen, it's better to know the outcome as soon as possible so you can move on with your life instead of like continuing to just be where you are and be comfortable, which is probably not the best thing anyway. You know, and I'm saying from personal experience, like I was comfortable for a very, very long time and I was avoiding, procrastinating, telling myself all the excuses and ignoring things that were happening right in my face. And when I finally made stop self-sabotaging, yeah, I came out on the other side and I could have done this so long ago. Yeah. And that's exactly what you're saying. It's like don't let it drag on and on if you're gonna end up doing the thing anyway.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:33

Because look, if you were scared, let's say it's a relationship, right? Let's say if you were scared of what people would think of you or what your family would say or what your friends would say or what your Instagram would be like when they realize he's no longer on your page, right? It's like you still had to go through that. Right. So then what the hell?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:51

But like at least you could have done it ten years ago. Yeah. You know? No, absolutely. So yeah, just fucking do the thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:59

Do the thing this is one long day anyway. It's just that's true.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:03

Just do it. Yeah, and then live your life, be a perfect timing. Exactly. There's never a perfect time. Do the thing so you can like actually enjoy your life.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:14

And be happy.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:15

Yeah, oh my god. So many times remember, even like with um Alaska, with going back there, like even when I was turning them down, it's like I wrote the letter, I drafted it, I had it in my email, and then like I was scared to send it. And then even when the job posted and I didn't apply, they reopened it for me so that I could like this whole everything was happening. I was like, you know, I had already decided I wasn't going back to Alaska. Right. And you're like, so why the hell are you applying to the job? And I said, because they posted it for me. Yeah, you know. So I felt obligated. Yeah. I felt obligated to apply. And I did, and I wanted it though. That's the thing. I wanted it just under my very like yeah, what's the word, specific circumstances?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:01

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:02

And I couldn't get that right now. So it's like I might as well do this. But yeah, it's like, why did I keep communicating with them? Why did I keep saying, Okay, let me do this? Right. That was when you already knew. I already knew. Yeah. It was just making myself feel like shit every time I disappointed them, every time I kept it going, when I realized I could have just sent the email that I sent them eventually. Yeah. I could have sent that in the first place. Like, oh no, sorry, it's been a year, I'm not interested anymore. You know, whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:31

And and now, like, it's fine, right? Like it would have been.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:34

Now I can go back. I can go when I want.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:37

Yeah, and I think you bring up a really good point of also how much guilt we carry we when we continue to self-sabotage. Now you're adding another layer of crap. Yeah. Avoidance, guilt now, procrastination, fear of failure, this and that. Now it's guilt.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:53

Remember, like when um, like when you want to call out of work, right? Like, I will text you and be like, I won't be in today because I'm a fucking working professional. I don't need to tell you my business. I don't I don't care who you are. Right. This is my personal thing. I have days off, I have hours, I'm taking them. You don't need to know that my uncles, cousins, brother, whatever. Right, right. So like I don't do that. But I used to be like, hey, I don't think I can come in. I'm gonna try because I really was gonna try. Yeah. You know, it's just in this moment, I don't feel like I can come in. I'm just giving you a heads up. Right. But like I'm trying to tell you that so you're not anxious why she's late. Right, right. But then it gives me so much anxiety because now I'm like, fuck, I really don't want to go in. Why didn't I just tell them that I'm not coming? Yeah. Why did I say I was gonna try?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:39

Right. Yeah, these are the things we do to ourselves that are so unnecessary. And a lot of the times we already know the thing we have to do or what we want or whatever. It's just we get stuck. We get stuck and we self-sabotage.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:53

But can we talk really? I mean, like, I know not like we're over time. This is our time. We can do what the fuck we want. Yeah. But um, can we talk about like the difference between like how betrayed we are when someone else sabotages us? But when we sabotage ourselves, it's like oh, you just didn't show up for yourself, okay, you're still here. But when someone else does it, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:17

The nerve. The nerve.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:19

The fucking nerve. You see like how attached we can be to the our values and standing on business when it's defending ourselves, but what about when we're the ones that are doing the things ourselves? It that's you fold so quickly, you're like, oh yeah, okay, well, yeah, I didn't want to go to the gym this morning. Oh, this is why I gained five pounds.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:38

Yeah, but I was really comfortable here. Yeah, why do we make those excuses? It's so wild. That's such a really good point. How we like are blown out of the water when other people do it, but when we do it to ourselves, it's okay. Man, people respect yourself. Stop you owe it to yourself to not do this shit. Yeah. Cause like for what? For who? For what?

unknown 1:12:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:03

Like if you're gonna be there, be there for yourself.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:06

And the other people, they're not more important than you.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:09

Not at all. Never nobody is more important than yourself.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:13

So if you're worried about what it's gonna look like, if you're worried about what it's gonna feel like, I get that. But feel the thing and let it look however it wants to look. But obviously, a part of you wants to change. Right. So like at least give that person a chance to change.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:28

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So well, now speaking of self-sabotage. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:37

Oh my god, the biggest self-sabotage.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:40

The biggest one ever coming up next week. Next week, we're talking about love triangles and toxic relationships, and all the messy decisions that happen when love gets complicated.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:51

We're talking about being torn between two people, being part of a love triangle.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:57

Or finding out that you're in one and nobody bothered to tell you. Oh no.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:03

And we're also getting into toxic relationships.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:06

Yeah, why people stay, why people go back, and why intense chemistry isn't always the same thing as compatibility. Because sometimes the biggest question isn't who someone chooses, it's why they keep choosing relationships that hurt them. Oh man, that's gonna be a good one.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:23

That is you remember I had like an answer for that. The why they keep choosing relationships that hurt them. Part is when I used to feel like I was like I needed to be with someone who was emotionally unavailable because I love my space so much. Yeah. So it's like I almost only chose these situations because I knew they won't be up in my space, they're not even gonna be around when I need them. Yeah, they're just around three, you know, have a good time.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:50

You know, right, they have their purpose, and yeah the line is drawn, and that's it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:55

So hey, call it what you want. Self-sabotage, love triangle.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:00

I love it. I loved it. Anyway. Alright, well, that's it for this session. See you next time.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:09

We want you to be a part of this world with us. Send us your book, recommendations, character obsessions, and topics you want us to cover.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:16

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SPEAKER_04 1:14:20

Or email us at info at onceupona session pod dot com. If you want to share thoughts, suggestions, or just screwing battle plot twist with us. Yes. So are we charging for this session? Emotionally always. You remember the first laugh of that?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:39

Oh yeah. Yeah, our fake laugh. Yeah, but no, we're really laughing. Alright. Hope you're laughing with it. Hope you are laughing with it. You know why? Next session, where? Same chaos, same chaos, back by people. Go listen to all of our previous episodes. All of them.