Session 19: Lit in Lit- Stories Within the Story

What if one book leaves you questioning what’s real… while the other asks you to question the life you’re living?

In this Lit in Lit episode, Vanessa dives into Verity by Colleen Hoover, exploring unreliable narration, manipulation, and the psychology of perception, while Nareesa unpacks The Midnight Library by Matt Haig, examining regret, possibility, and what it means to find purpose in an imperfect life.

Together, these stories invite us to explore two very different questions: Can we trust what we believe?And what if the life we have is enough?

Because sometimes the greatest plot twists don’t change the story…

They change the way we see ourselves.

Disclaimer: We’re licensed therapists, but we’re not your therapists. Everything shared here is for conversation, reflection, and entertainment.

✨ Follow Once Upon a Session for new episodes where two therapists turn their TBR pile into treatment plans—and every story becomes a session.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Have you ever noticed how often books show up in other books? Once you notice it, you start seeing it everywhere. Libraries, journals, letters, fairy tales, prophecies. Yeah. Somehow those end up becoming the most interesting parts of the story. Those stories often shape the characters just as much as the main plot does. And sometimes they become the reason the plot happens in the first place. This is once upon a session where two therapists turn their TBR pile into treatment plans. And every story becomes a session. I'm Vanessa.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

And I'm Narisa. Why are you laughing? Because I feel like I'm reading and then I'm saying, like, I'm Vanessa, like I'm about to say I'm Vanessa. I'm the one who gets excited when a fictional character walks into a library. And I'm the one who immediately wants to read the book they're reading. Oh my god, have you ever wanted to like read any of these books? Yeah. Like all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Just a quick note before we dive in. We're both licensed therapists, but we're not your therapists. Everything we share here is for conversation, reflection, and maybe a little inspiration.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

But it's not a substitute for therapy. If you're struggling, please reach out to a mental health professional who can give you the care and support you deserve.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Now that you're all checked in, have a seat on our couch. Hey, you two making noises, crinkling, crinkling with the toy.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Hello, hello. Welcome back. Welcome back. Welcome back.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Alright. It's been a long time, long time. Yeah. Trying to get to get to look up. That was Aaliyah. No, but um everything's going on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Yeah, everything's going fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Yeah. I haven't crashed out again.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Oh my god. You reminded me to remember there was an update about Father's Day.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Oh my god. With your dad.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

It was so funny.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

He finally called me back. But he told me like he was like, oh, this is the best day I've ever had with you guys.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Yeah, I loved your triari.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Yeah, it was a really fun day.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Yeah. That turned into all night. Wow. Yeah. That turned into work the next day. And they need to stop making like major holidays, like celebratory things on a Sunday.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Mm-hmm. Like give me off Monday, like the day after.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Yeah. Yeah. And then like you then you had a sleep study, so like, are you sleeping?

SPEAKER_03 2:40

No.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

That was I know it was a long time ago, but like you've been sleeping okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

It wasn't that long ago.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Alright. Okay. Well Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

No, but other than that, everything's fine. Yeah. Yesterday's bleep might be today's bleep.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Yeah. But maybe not. No. Don't tell seven tall now. You've already told the people they're committed. They're committed. Alright. Yesterday's bleep. Wait, there was something I had to say, but I forgot. Alright, so yeah, there's kind of an update, but I think we said we weren't gonna talk about it. But maybe we can talk about it a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

If someone sends us an email, we'll talk about it. The first person that sends us an email, yeah. We'll give you all the big news.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

There's um something in the we're cooking.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

We can't tell anyone.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

We're not telling, but we're cooking. Oh my god, this is what session 19?

SPEAKER_03 3:41

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

We have four more till our season finale. Wow. Wow. Well, listen, to those of you who are still here, we thank you so much. You know, we just started doing this for fun, and I don't know why I'm going into a home whole speech now. But thank you for being there. That's all. And if you're just joining us, please just hang in with us, go back.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

Because the beginning was rough, like our mic and our sound.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

It was so bad. The quality was so bad. It might still not be like as great as whatever, but also we're indie, so it's fine. We're indie, like we do everything ourselves. Yeah. So give us some credit. But also, if you want to pro bono work for us. I don't know. Isn't it pro bono? Oh yeah. Yeah, if you want to pro bono, do marketing and social media management. Let us know.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

No, we're not just gonna have random people do stuff.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Like we're gonna interview them like it's a job. Not a what? Like a whole interview? Yeah, we're gonna say show us your skills and then be a judge. Alright, or not. I'm getting dirty looks over here now. Okay, but anyway, life is just like thanks for listening. Yeah, thanks for listening. Let's get into our what's going on question topic of the week for the question topic. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

What's a fictional story, myth, fairy tale, or legend within a book that you wish actually existed?

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Okay, so the first thing that came to mind was the horn.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

The who?

SPEAKER_01 5:21

The horn. Oh yeah. On Bryce. Well, oops. Yeah. But I wish that was real. Like, I wish tattoos could like mean something in society and they can like unlock a whole world of mystery and like. I just wish that was real.

SPEAKER_03 5:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

That's my answer. Oh, from Crescent City. By the way, this is Bryce from Crescent City by Sarah J. Mass. I'm referring to the horn. Yeah. If I haven't read it, sorry about it. I just spoiled it.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

No, but you didn't spoil it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Alright, so your question is what fictional world do you think has the best library?

SPEAKER_02 5:59

I think Velaris.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Yeah. But I mean I must remind myself at the start. But yeah. But I feel like Ailen had some good books, but like she I don't know. Yeah. I think I think Valaris might be where it's at.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

I also would be so interested in like the scribes, like in Fourth Wing, like all that information. I think that's where I was going with the other question. Got it. I was gonna say like the dad's book or whatever. Yeah. But yeah. Alright, yeah. Oh, I love this topic so much. Okay. Speaking of this topic.

SPEAKER_02 6:41

Yeah, today we're talking about books inside books and stories inside stories.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

We're exploring why literature becomes such an important part of the worlds we love. Stories often shape the characters reading them, they also shape the plots, relationships, and worlds around them. Stories don't just exist inside these books, they help define them. Yeah, alright.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

Humans have always used stories to understand the world around them.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Stories help people make meaning out of experiences, emotions, relationships, and events.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

People often see parts of themselves in stories they consume.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Yeah. Um, characters can give language to feelings, struggles, and experiences that are difficult to explain.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Stories can also help people explore a perspective outside their own.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

They allow people to experience different lives, choices, and possibilities without ever leaving their own.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Many people use stories to comfort, escape, connect, or hope.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Others use them to process grief, make sense of challenges, or better understand themselves.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

That influence doesn't disappear in fictional worlds.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Characters are often shaped by the stories they hear, read, inherit, or believe.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Those stories can influence identity, decisions, relationships, and entire belief systems.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Sometimes they even become the thing that changes a character's path. Yeah. Stories do more than entertain people. They help people understand themselves and the world around them. And like Loki, that's why we're doing what we're doing. Because not Loki, Heikey, that's why we're doing what we're doing. Because like in reading, we discovered just like these stories that just have such a huge impact on us. And how they relate to real life shit. And here we are. Authors use stories inside stories for a reason. Those books, journals, manuscripts, myths, and legends often become much more than background details.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

I don't know why I'm enunciating so sometimes they preserve history or past knowledge from one generation to another.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

Other times they reveal secrets, solve mysteries, or provide answers that characters have been searching for. Love it.

SPEAKER_02 8:59

Stories inside fiction can also reveal a lot about a character.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

The books people choose, the stories they believe, and the lessons they carry often shape their decisions.

SPEAKER_02 9:09

Many authors use literature to connect the post. To connect the post.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Are you gonna write me a letter in the post? I did already. Oh, perfect.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Many authors use literature to connect the past and present.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

A forgotten story, a lost journal, a letter in the post, or an old manuscript can completely change how a character understands their world. Some stories become important because they influence the plot. Others become important. Others become important because they influence the people inside it. Stories inside fiction aren't just there to be read. They often become some of the most powerful forces in the story itself. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

Alright, so let's get into it. I'm bringing Verity Crawford and Loan Ashley from Verity. And I'm bringing Nora Seed from the Midnight Library.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Today's characters are connected by one thing: the power of a story. Because sometimes a story can change the way people see themselves, and sometimes it can change everything around them. Alright, I shall go first. Alright, so today I'm gonna be talking about the Midnight Library by Matt Haig. And the character is Nora Seed. Alright, after attempting suicide and believing her life is no longer worth living, Nora Seed awakens in the Midnight Library, a magic library that exists between life and death, where every book contains a different version of her life. Guided by her former school librarian, Mrs. Elm, Nora begins pulling books from endless shelves and stepping into the stories they contain. Each book allows her to experience a life that might have existed had she made different choices. As Nora moves from story to story, living as a musician, athlete, scientist, wife, and countless other versions of herself, she becomes both the reader and the main character. What begins as a search for a better life? They're just playing, and it's so cute. I don't want to interrupt them. I don't care if these people hear dogs playing in the background very cutely. Okay. What begins as a search for a better life gradually becomes an exploration of regret possibility. Regret, yeah. Nope. Identity and the stories people tell themselves about who they are. At its core, at its core, the Midnight Library is a story about books, second chances, and the transformative power of seeing your life through a different narrative. I love the idea of this. When we're done with our fantasy binge, we're gonna need some back to reality books, you know?

SPEAKER_00 12:10

I don't know if I can get yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

I'm not saying like ignore fantasy forever, just like throw in like we wanted to read The Nightingale, which I heard was amazing. Like, yeah. Yeah. Some his some romance, like, you know. Okay. Anyway, sorry. Presenting problem behaviors for Nora, chronic rumination about past choices and missed opportunities, viewing her life through the lens of regret rather than possibility, difficulty recognizing meaning and value within her current story, core themes, stories as tools for meaning making, narrative identity, and self-authorship, and the transformative power or uh I can't say that's great, and the transformative power of perspective. The core belief is my life would have been better if I had made different choices. Yeah, don't we all agree? Or maybe not, I don't know. Speak for yourself. I'm speaking for myself. Treatment goals, interventions, challenge idealized beliefs about alternate life paths, develop greater self-compassion around mistakes and uncertainty, rewrite rigid narratives about failure, success, and self-worth, what progress looks like, uh, recognizes that every life contains both joy and hardship, develops appreciation for the story she's currently living, and views herself through a lens of possibility rather than regret. The outcome. Believing that Nora enters the midnight library believing that different story Nora enters the mid I'm so high. Nora enters the midnight library believing that a different story will save her. She becomes convinced she becomes convinced that happiness exists somewhere on another shelf, inside another book, and another version of herself. But each story she enters teaches her something unexpected. The books do not provide escape, they provide perspective. By reading and living countless alternate versions of her life, Nora discovers that stories are powerful not because they allow us to become someone else, but because they help us better understand who we already are. The library becomes a reminder that every life is a story, every choice creates a new chapter, and sometimes healing begins when we stop searching for a different narrative and start engaging with our own. Ultimately, Nora learns that fulfillment is not found in finding the perfect story, it's found in choosing to continue writing the one she already has. It's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

It sounds good. Yeah, it's just sounds like something I would enjoy.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Yeah, I feel like you really would enjoy it. I think you need it in your life. Yeah, not in a bad way. I'm just saying, like everybody needs it. You two, y'all out there, you need it in your life. You need it in your life. Okay, who's on your couch? Verity.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

Well, Verity by Colleen Hoover. Yeah. Story follows Loen Ashley, who's a struggling author. She gets this opportunity to finish a best-selling series after the original author, Verity Crawford, is left unable to write following a really devastating accident. Loewen ends up moving into the Crawford home to go through Verity's notes, expecting to find outlines and research, but instead she finds this hidden, unpublished autobiography in Verity's office. And this manuscript, it reads like a series of really disturbing confessions about Verity's marriage, her children, and everything that's happened in her family. So when Lohan keeps reading, she starts questioning everything around her the house, the people in it, what's real, what's not, and the deeper she gets, the harder it is for her to separate facts from fiction. Every interaction starts to feel like proof that she's already read. And that's really what makes this story so interesting. It's not about a creepy manuscript, it's about how stories shape our perception and how easily we can convince ourselves we've found the truth even when we haven't. So the manuscript almost becomes its own character. It's literally a story inside another story. And once Lowen Loan, how do you say her name? Loan. I almost said Loan.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

Um, and once Loan reads it, she can't really go back to seeing things objectively. Every page starts to reshape how she interprets what's happening around her. From a therapist perspective, that's fascinating because we know people don't experience events objectively, we experience them through the stories our brains create. So whether that manuscript is actually true isn't even the most interesting question. The real question is what happens when someone believes it's true? Yeah. Yeah. That book was crazy.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

It was. Jeez. Yeah. They're making a movie. Yeah. I think you told me that, man. And pathways and I love it. And somebody else that we know. I could easily Amanda something.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

I could easily picture her like I she fits. So Loan is this relatively unknown author who spent most of her career writing under a pseudonym, so she never really stepped into visibility or recognition. She's also grieving the recent loss of her mother. She's financially overwhelmed, and she's already questioning her own stability when this opportunity shows up. There's this quiet insecurity about her. She doesn't fully trust her instincts, and she tends to look outward for cues on how to interpret things. She's already walking into the Crawford home feeling uncertain about herself and her place in this world. And then the manuscript give her something our brains naturally crave certainty. Once she feels like she's uncovered the real story, everything starts fitting into that narrative. She's not being irrational on purpose. She's doing exactly what every human brain is wired to do. Like trying to create a coherent story from incomplete information. Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Exactly. I would absolutely do that. But like, no, it's just it I'm I you can't really say much about this because then you'll give stuff away. Yeah. But it was really interesting. And I love how like you're using it as lit in lid. Yeah. And I think we're doing even like two different characters. Like one of them is trying to figure out one thing, and one of them's dead, trying to see like a different version of their life or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Did you just spoil the whole plot? No. What did I say? So one of them is dead, just trying to figure out.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

Oh, did I say dead?

SPEAKER_00 19:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

You said one of them is dead just trying to figure it out from a different perspective.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Oh, okay. We'll run it back. Well, maybe somebody's dead. You never know. Read the books. Is everybody dead?

SPEAKER_02 19:16

I don't even know, honestly. So presenting problems, hypervigilance. Oh, that was all just one part. Okay, good. That was two parts. I was breaking down the manuscript and then what it really means like for the lit to be in lit. You're not joking.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

I am.

SPEAKER_02 19:35

Okay. Presenting problems, hypervigilance after discovering disturbing information, difficulty separating objective evidence from personal interpretation from personal interpretation, anxiety fueled by uncertainty, and increased preoccupation with perceived danger. Some core themes, narrative construction. We're always trying to make sense of what's happening to us. So we naturally turn our experiences into our story. Confirmation bias. Um, once we start believing that story, we begin noticing and holding on to what that seems to support, like, and holding on to anything that seems to support it, and need for cognitive closure because to knowingly feel really uncomfortable, we're drawn to explanations that give us a sense of certainty, even if they're not fully accurate. So treatment goals, increase tolerance for uncertainty, strengthen reality testing, identify cognitive biases, interventions, cognitive restructuring around confirmation bias, mindfulness to separate observations from interpretations, distress tolerance for ambiguity, and reality testing exercises examining alternate alternative explanations. Hello, expected outcomes, greater flexibility in thinking, improved ability to tolerate unanswered questions, reduced reliance on certainty for emotional safety. For me, Verity isn't really about whether the manuscript is true, it's about how quickly a story can become our reality once we decide to believe it.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Yeah. Yeah. Alright, shall we further discuss treatment team meeting? Clipboards out.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

It's time for the treatment team meeting. Okay, so if these characters walked into our office, if Nora walked into my office, I don't think we'd start by talking about her choices. I think we'd start by talking about the story she believes about her life. Because before we can change how she feels, we have to understand the narrative she's carrying. So for immediate clinical impressions, clinically Nora presents as someone who has become trapped inside a story of regret. She doesn't just believe she made mistakes, she believes those mistakes define the value of her entire life. And obviously that's why she attempts to save her life. So yeah. Regret is like Regret runs deep.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Yeah. Okay. She got regret ready.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

Okay, if Loan walked into my office, my first impression would actually be that she isn't losing touch with reality. She's trying to make sense of an impossible situation. The problem isn't that she's irrational, it's that uncertainty has become so uncomfortable, her brain keeps filling in the gaps. Immediate clinical impressions. I'd notice significant anxiety and hypervigilance. I'd also see confirmation bias developing in real time. New experiences get filtered through the manuscript instead of standing on their own. There's also grief, financial stress, and isolation, all things that make our thinking more vulnerable when we're overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

Alright, what she'd say versus reality. Nora would probably say her problem is that she made the wrong choices. She'd probably say everyone else figured out life except for her. But the reality is that she's comparing her real life to imagined versions that never really had to face reality.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

So I think Loan, um I think she'd tell me the problem is verity. But what I'd actually hear is that uncertainty feels unbearable. She isn't just afraid of verity, she's afraid of not knowing what's true. And like I would want to know what's true too. Yeah. I totally especially if it's all making sense.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

It's all like okay. Yeah, and it's an interesting truth. Yeah. Alright, for what we'd work on first. Uh the first thing we'd focus on is helping Nora identify the stories she's telling herself. Because many of the beliefs causing her pain aren't facts, they're interpretations.

SPEAKER_03 23:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

And we like all do that as human beings. Like we hear what we want to hear. Like we're interpreting everything all the time. Everything is like how we're taking it from our perspective.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

So, like are we all kind of Nora? Like the readers? I think so. Because I think just be like this is like I am Ailen. I'm also like Sandra. I'm also I'm like everyone that I want to be. Maybe I'm even Maeve. You know, maybe I'm Lorcan and Elite.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

You know, like of course I'm reading the book and I'm naturally picking, like, oh, like I can identify with that. Certain character. Yeah. You know, so it's like I am living a life through this. Like I'm living the thoughts, the experience. Like, I so you know, like that saying that goes like I've lived a million lives. Yes. You read a book. Yep, yep. So maybe we all are Nora, and this is just a different representation of it. Like maybe this is what we're doing. I think so.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

That's a really good point. Yeah, because for sure that's what I'm doing. I'm like, oh, like I can. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

I gotta tell you something. Yes, tell me. So when I did my sleep study, you know, I couldn't watch TV. Right. I couldn't read they took um he made me put my candle away. Oh god. So anyway, yeah, well, I you know what I did? I closed my eyes and I was like, okay. I was like, where's the first scene I ever saw Ailen Ash River, Dallas Danny's? And I just like started. Yeah. No, so like I started playing it in my head. Oh yeah. I started playing the fucking book in my head because I was like, I was trying to see how far I could get before I fell asleep. Because like I'm trying to do the sleep state. I counted cheap and it didn't work. But I was like trying to count down backwards from a thousand. And every time I got distracted, I got like I started over. Yeah, you should be but whatever. Anyway, like I was creating a movie of the I love that alien.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Well, that's not gonna help you sleep. That's three stressful as hell, but I love that. I just need for them to make it real. What's taking so long? Yeah, it would be epic, like Game of Thrones epic. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Alright. So I'd work on helping her separate observations from conclusions. What did you actually witness? What are you assuming? Um, those are two very different things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Interpretations, yeah. Yeah. Alright, for countertransference. There would be a lot of empathy for Nora because almost everyone has imagined a life where they made different choices. So yeah. Most people have wondered whether they would be happier, more successful, more loved, more fulfilled if they had taken a different path. That would be my biggest counter transference. I'd be like, Yeah, girl, I get it. I get it. Like, I get you. I think about this all the time. Like, if I made a different choice, if I did the you know what I mean? It's just all of us.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

That's why my decisions are so heavy for me, and everybody's like, Oh, just make a decision. I can't. Like, yeah, damn. I this could change the whole course of my life. Yeah, like my entire life. Right, right. It's like, oh, follow your heart. Yeah, fuck you. Yeah, you know, they're both in my heart.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, that's I get that. Yeah. What about you? What would your counter transference be?

SPEAKER_02 27:10

My counter transference would be honestly, again, I'm feeling protective. I'm feeling protective because if I had read that manuscript, I'd probably feel unsettled too. I'd have to remind myself that feeling convinced isn't the same thing as having proof.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

Because that's what she's coming in with. Yeah. Like, I don't understand what other option there was in her situation. Like, I would have done the same exact thing she did. Yeah. We'll see. Alright. Well, intervention. A lot of the work would be a lot of a lot of gelata. Oh, gelado. Yum. I'm hungry again. Okay. A lot of the work would focus on narrative therapy. Because I'm thinking about you talking about like it's like, yeah, like you just wake up one day and you're like, why are you so fat? Like, stop eating. Like, I'm just like how you be talking about food and okay. A lot of the work would focus on narrative therapy, self-compassion, cognitive restructuring, and meaning making. We'd explore how stories shape identity and how changing the way we interpret our experiences can completely change how we experience our lives. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. What about you? What's your intervention?

SPEAKER_02 28:30

I'm actually going down the road to CBT. Okay. And I like it. In narrative therapy. I'd have her literally write two competing versions of events. One based on observable facts, one based on assumptions, then we'd compare them. Like, you know, sometimes you just have to show them right there. I used to love giving assignments. Oh my god. Like, because you know what? Most of the patients that we did it for were like, what, borderline? They wanted the assignments. They loved it. So that's my first experience of it. So it's like me, like as a baby therapist, like, here, I need you to do this for me. And they're like, Oh, hell yeah. I get to talk about myself and like make you care about me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

You know, like and like I feel productive and like I accomplished something.

SPEAKER_02 29:19

So it was well received. So I feel confident now, giving people grown men assignments. I'm like, look, you need to do this. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

I love it. And it's all because Can you repeat the assignment? Because I'm about to use the assignment. No, seriously. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

So I was saying narrative therapy, I'd have her write two competing versions of events. Like, so one is based on observable facts. And one is based on assumptions. Observable facts. Yeah, okay. Got it. Yeah. Okay. What did you actually see? Right. And what are you just assuming right now? Like, what are you assuming? And let's just compare it because this list. Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

But it's also like, yeah, going back to interpretation, like something can whatever can happen, and you're like interpreting it differently from like what is because you can only see it from your lens. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I love that. Okay. Alright. Yeah. Well, the hard truth. The hard truth is do not assign it, all of you out there.

SPEAKER_03 30:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

No. But the hard truth is that there's no perfect version of your life waiting somewhere else. Every story contains loss. Every path contains sacrifice. And every choice means saying goodbye to another possibility. Oh, I hate it. I know. I know you do. I just heard it and I was like, I know you're gonna be like, no, this is so true, but I hate it. Yeah. There's no perfect version of your life waiting somewhere else. Every story contains loss, every path contains sacrifice, and every choice means saying goodbye to another possibility. That's life.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

I'd say sometimes our minds would rather believe the wrong story than tolerate having no story at all.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

That's very true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

Yeah. That's why you need not you. I'm saying that's why people should go to therapy because you know?

SPEAKER_00 31:27

Uh-huh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

That can be a problem. All right, let's bring it back to real life for the people. All right, I'm going in here. Like always. One reason people love books is because books allow us to temporarily step into lives that aren't our own. We get to experience different choices, different perspectives, different struggles, and different possibilities without ever leaving our own story. In many ways, Nora's journey mirrors what readers do every day. She walks through countless lives searching for understanding. And isn't that what books often give us? A chance to see the world differently, a chance to see ourselves differently. And sometimes a story doesn't change our circumstances, it changes our perspective, and that can change everything. Exactly. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

That's it. All right. Yeah, let's hear your version.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

All right. Every single one of us has filled in blanks before. We've assumed someone's intentions, we've rewritten memories, we've convinced ourselves we knew the truth. But the scary part isn't that Loan did it. The scary part is realizing we'd probably do it too.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Yeah. We do. A hundred thousand percent we do. Yeah. I feel like this was so like deeply philosophical and like I loved it. I loved it. I loved it. Yeah. Alright. Alright.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

The pain.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

The pain and the right. So for me, the moment Nora stands in the midnight library, surrounded by endless shelves of books, each containing a different version of her life, convinced that somewhere among those stories is a version of herself who finally got it right. So the pain is believing happiness exists in another story rather than her own, romanticizing lives she never lived, while overlooking the value of the life she has and defining her worth through missed opportunities and alternate possibilities. The shift, Nora realizes that every story contains uncertainty, lost joy, and imperfection. She begins challenging the belief that a different version of herself would automatically be happier, and she learns that perspective, not perfection, is what transforms a story. The plot increased self-compassion, greater acceptance of uncertainty and imperfection, and a renewed willingness to participate in her own life. So Nora spent an entire book searching endless shells for a life worth living, only to discover she was already holding it.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Yeah. And that's it, that's that.

SPEAKER_02 34:19

So it was the pain with the plot?

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Um you know? Let me think for a second. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. I think she had to see all those other versions of herself to realize that the version she has is the best one. And like remember she attempted suicide, so like now she's gonna whatever come back to life and have a chance to live the life she has and appreciate it. So sometimes you need that pain to see the plot.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

So I believe it was.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

That was beautiful. Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Alright, what she got?

SPEAKER_02 35:08

The moment when Loan discovers Verity's hidden manuscript and chooses to keep reading instead of putting it away. The pain. Desperate need to understand what's happening, uncertainty becoming emotionally intolerable, every chapter reshaping her perception, anxiety fueled by information she can't verify. The shift. She closes the manuscript, tells Jeremy immediately, treats it as information, not truth, allows multiple explanations to exist. The plot. Loen never spirals into hypervigilance. The relationship with Jeremy develops differently. Verity remains mysterious rather than monstrous. The central conflict becomes investigation instead of obsession. Loewen really said this hidden autobiography seemed healthy for my mental health and proceeded to reading the whole thing at 2 a.m.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

Yeah. Yeah. Again, like I would do. I would do it. Was the pain worth the plot?

SPEAKER_03 36:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

Yeah. Yeah, it was. I agree. Alright. We got a yes and a yes this week. Last week it was like, no, absolutely not. We're daddy issues. Yeah. Okay. Alright, well, it's time for fun. Lit and litch. Lit and lit and lish. Lit and lit. Lit and lish. Lit English. Yeah. Lit English. Okay. Alright. Welcome to Read It or Leave It. We're going to pre the dip tap. We're going to present it. We're going to be presented with the books and the journals and the manuscripts. Libraries, prophecies, and stories from fictional worlds. Our job is simple. Would we read it or leave it alone?

SPEAKER_02 36:56

Okay. Alright, book talk edition. The word marks books. Thrown a glass. Ancient books containing knowledge powerful enough to alter the fate of entire kingdoms.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

Uh I would read it. I might read it too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

If it's in like um oh, would it be in I was saying like someone has to be experiencing the books, so that's why I would read it to like know that person's story too. Like, what are they going through? Why are they reading the books? Or these are the people creating it, so they're fighting off something. And then they're learning the word marks. How do you call it weird marks? Weird words.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

I say word. I say word. Okay. Yeah. Cool. I would read it. Yep. Yeah. Alright, the hidden records beneath the torches. Tower of dawn. Catcho. Gotcha with it. Gotcha. Yeah, gotcha. Ancient knowledge containing the truths that could change the fate of the world. I would definitely read that.

SPEAKER_02 37:53

I would read that too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 37:55

Jessba's Library from Crescent City. A collection of rare books, magical artifacts, and forbidden knowledge. Yeah. I would read it.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Yeah. Yeah. My God, we're gonna read everything. Okay. The archives of Bisgayath War College from Fourth Wing. Records containing information that could completely change everything people believe about their world. Yeah. I would read it. Yeah. The fairy tale. Of the Maleficent North.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

The fairy tales of the magnificent north, once upon a broken heart. Stories everyone's assume are myth until they start coming true. I would read those. I would read it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Okay, the legends and history of the nightmare card. From One Dark Widow to Yeah, yep. And this would be ancient stories connected to the origins of the cards and the kingdom. I want a book just for that. Rachel Gillig. I want a book for each card. I want a prequel of the cards, Rachel Gillick.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

I want a book for each card. Yeah. Series me up. Yeah, I'll take it.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Brilliant. Oh, here you go. Another one.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

The complete history of the gods and oh, the gods and the fallen. The book of Ezra, the gods and monsters. The complete history of the gods and the fallen. Oh my god, yeah. A book containing the true history of the gods, monsters, and every war between them. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

Yes, yes, yes, yes. We haven't said no to anything. We're not saying that. The restricted section of the Hogwarts Library. Yes. Hell yeah. Of the Hogwarts Library from Harry Potter. Yeah. A collection of books considered too dangerous for most readers. Yeah, I would read it. The Midnight Library. A library containing every version of your life. I would read it. Yeah. I would want to live there. Yeah. Okay. A book that answers any question you ask. Ah. No. I would read it, but I would I would at least hesitate if I would hesitate, but I would. I would hesitate and I might leave it because if it's not what I want to hear, I'm not going to handle it well. Alright, now these are the feels edition. So let's it's gonna give us the feels. Alright.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

Go ahead. A book containing every moment someone loved you without telling you. Oh I would leave it. No, I would read it. What am I saying?

SPEAKER_00 40:13

Yeah, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_01 40:14

You would like frame that shit.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

Yeah, I would read it.

SPEAKER_01 40:17

Okay. Oh. See, like I'm already thinking rejection in my head. But this is the opposite. Yeah, I would read it.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

Okay. A book containing every life you touched without realizing it.

SPEAKER_02 40:33

I would read it.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

I would read it, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

A book containing every kind thing ever said about you behind your back. I would read it. I need validation. I would just read it. Oh, I would just love that. To remind me of the things I did.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

Yeah. Remind you of the things you don't remember about yourself. Yeah. Okay. A book showing every version of yourself you never became. Oh, that would be hard watch, a hard read, but I would read it.

SPEAKER_02 40:58

Yeah, same. A book containing every memory someone wishes they could relive with you. Oh, I would read that. I would read that. Yeah. Can we make this happen? I'm gonna ask chat like how we can do this.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

Yeah. I want all of these. Okay, a book containing every time someone was proud of you but never said it out loud. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

A book containing every moment you made someone feel loved.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Yeah. Yeah, but I don't need it. But yeah. Yeah. Okay. A book containing every goodbye you never got the chance to say. Oh my god, that would break me. I would read it. But I would read it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

A book containing every chapter of your life told from someone else's perspective.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

A book containing every chapter. I'd love to read that. I would read it from your perspective. I would love to read that. Yes, I would. I would want it from yours and then a male, a man's perspective.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

A female.

SPEAKER_01 41:59

Yeah, yeah. Alright. Um, a book containing the moments that mattered most in your life. Yeah, I would read it. Yeah. Alright. Alright. A book appears in front of you. It contains the complete story of your life.

SPEAKER_02 42:15

You can read every chapter from beginning to end. Do you open it?

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Hell yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Alright. I loved that.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_01 42:27

Oh my god, I love those questions. I want all those books.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

All of them. Alright, next, who needed this story? Stories can change people. Sometimes the right story shows up at exactly the right time.

SPEAKER_02 42:41

We're going to look at fictional characters and decide what book they needed to read.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

Yeah, because some of these people desperately needed a different narrative. Yeah. Alright. Ailen Galatinius. What book does she need? Yeah, how to delegate without faking your own death. That's perfect. Well, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:00

Rowan Whithorne. Um communication for men who stare instead of Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

Rowan Whithorne, the power of vulnerability, I think, is there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Manon Blackbeak. How to make friends and not threaten them. Yeah. I like that. Dorian Havilliard. Haviliard. I think Dorian would need to read The Midnight Library.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

Yeah. Alright. Evangeline Fox. He's just not that into you. That's funny. Set boundaries, find peace. Mm-hmm. Okay, Jack's. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

Apologies. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:44

How they work and why you should try one. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 43:47

Violet Soren gal.

SPEAKER_01 43:49

Trust me, they're lying, a guy to red flowers. Because what the hell? Okay, Zaydan Ryerson. Game of Thrones.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

Yeah. Okay, I'll take it. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

Carrie and Swift. The subtle art of not giving a fuck. A hundred percent. Yeah. Maybe Actar. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Oh yeah, I'm forgetting about like the characters reading books from other fantasy books. Yeah. Okay, Elspeth Spindle. The invisible life of Eddie. Maybe that. Yeah, maybe that. We'll get to that. We'll get to that uh one day.

SPEAKER_02 44:32

Raven You?

SPEAKER_01 44:33

Yeah, you know who Raven is?

SPEAKER_02 44:36

That's the guy from the thing.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

That's Elspeth Lova. Okay. Yeah. I don't remember him much.

SPEAKER_02 44:45

He was good. Remember he was fighting the um the bulk.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean. Yeah. The bulk.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Darren Greeley, yeah. Okay, Kingfisher. Kingfisher needs the Bible. Maybe the alchemist. Yeah. Reese hand. Oh, Reeseand is not a bad guy. For five lovings. Yeah. Farah. Painting through your problems. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:19

Cassian. Anybody keeps a score.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

Yeah. For that's for Nesta too. They can read it at the book club style. Okay. Rune Danin, crowned prince of the Bulvar, never didn't pay. That man. Yeah. Oh, I remember that. Stop trauma bonding with attractive people, huh? Yeah, that's the one he needs. Yeah. I have to read that. Yeah. The house in the how you say it? Cerulean C. Cerulean. Cerulean C. Cerulean C. Okay. Diana Martinez, our girl.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

The monster calls.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Yeah, yeah. Daenerys Targaryen. Maybe don't burn the entire city. Yeah. And I think Daenerys should read Throne of Glass.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

Oh yeah. Mm-hmm. Jamie Lannister. Boundaries, including with your sister. Yes. And Darth Vader. Darth Vader is perfect. Leave him alone, but the body keeps the score. Yeah, he got trauma. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Any final words for Lit in Lit? Okay, so.

SPEAKER_02 46:35

What you got? As therapists, we actually see this all the time. Clients don't just bring us events. They bring us the story they've built around those events. Part of therapy isn't telling someone their story is wrong. It's helping them ask, is there another way to understand what happened? Sometimes changing the story changes everything. Yeah. And I think it even kind of goes back to what you said about your looking at it through your experience.

SPEAKER_01 47:07

It goes back to your assignment too, you know. I agree with that because there's a story you tell yourself. There's a story other people tell.

SPEAKER_02 47:17

And you about you.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

Right.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

It's just you're viewing it from the only place you can view it. So you're you're being like you're right, you're correct. But it might not be everyone's and it's not. It's not, it might not be their reality. It's not their reality. They're still viewing things differently.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

And it shouldn't like there shouldn't be that much pressure for it to be either. Your story is your story. And I want to highlight too, like just narrative, right? Changing the narrative a little bit. Like you have the ability to change your story.

SPEAKER_03 47:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:56

The narrative, whatever you tell yourself, like you have the ability to do that. So write your rewrite your narrative, honestly. You know, if this one is not working for you, rewrite it and then live it. And that's it.

SPEAKER_02 48:14

Yeah. So why didn't you tell me that when I was doing the back and forth about like my struggle to go up or downstairs?

SPEAKER_01 48:21

Because you made your decision.

SPEAKER_02 48:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:25

And I told you I'm always gonna pick the one that's gonna make you happy.

SPEAKER_02 48:29

Yeah. But you remember that's not the decision I made.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Right. But I have to respect the decision you made because I understand the reasons you made them. Yeah. Yeah. But now you're like rewriting the narrative to even that. You know what I mean? Like, alright, this is my decision, so let me No, I know I like it.

SPEAKER_02 48:52

I just I heard what you said. Yeah. And it's like I get to versus I have to. It's one of those quick ways to shift your thought, you know, like when you're in a situation. I get to do this now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:08

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 49:09

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

I love it. Alright, well, what's happening next time? Oh here we go. More deep shit.

SPEAKER_02 49:20

Okay. Next week we're talking about codependency and fear of abandonment.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

Get ready. It's about to go down because I got both. We're exploring how relationships can become tied to identity, self-worth, and emotional safety.

SPEAKER_02 49:37

People often fear those terms and immediately think about romantic relationships.

SPEAKER_01 49:42

What? It's ear, not fear. That was a Freudian slip. That's a Freudian slip.

SPEAKER_02 49:57

I see what I see. You see what you did there? People often hear those terms. I fear those terms. I don't. Mm-hmm. People often fear those.

SPEAKER_01 50:11

Oh no. Just leave it alone. No. Yes. No. Vanessa fears those terms and immediately think about romantic relationships.

SPEAKER_02 50:19

People often hear those terms. People always. People often hear those terms and immediately think about romantic relationships.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

But these patterns can show up in friendships, family relationships, and almost any important connection. Because wanting connection is human. But losing yourself to keep that connection is something very different. Oh man, that's gonna be a good one. It's just gonna be shots fired the whole time. Because I won't be talking about my issues.

SPEAKER_02 50:51

Okay, ready.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

Alright, that's it for this session. See you next week. What you mean by? You got a whole like we want you to be.

SPEAKER_02 51:04

We want you to be a part of this world with us. Send us your book recommendations, character obsessions, and or topics you want us to cover.

SPEAKER_01 51:13

You can find us on Instagram and TikTok at once upon a session pod.

SPEAKER_02 51:17

Or email us at info at onceuponasession pod.com if you want to share thoughts, suggestions, or just scream about a plot twist with us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

Yeah. Scream about a plot twist. We need a good plot twist that we don't know about yet. I hope. Because every book we're about to read, we know the plot twists.

SPEAKER_02 51:38

No, we don't know what's happening with um Caden and Sam Kyle.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

Well, I mean like coming up, like we're reading Kingdom of Ash, the guitar, like yeah. So I can't wait for a fresh new book. That's it. Lost my three cents.

SPEAKER_02 51:55

Yeah. I just can't wait to finish this book. I'm gonna go finish it right now. I'll be done in maybe like 45 minutes. Okay. So I'm gonna start Kingdom of Ash tonight.

SPEAKER_01 52:06

Okay, perfect. Then we'll be on the same page, literally.

SPEAKER_02 52:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

And metaphorically. Alright, well. Alright, so are we charging for this session? Emotionally, always. See you next session. Same couch. Same chaos. Alright, bye. Go back and listen to us from the beginning. Oh, Randy said I'm on the way now. Perfect timing, Randy. Gotta pick up the alright. On that note. Juice. Bringing me some candy. Not that kind of candy. Randy's bringing me some candy. Not that kind of candy candy. It's a strain of a candy. Yeah. I don't know what I'm thinking about. I'm doing that hard. No, yeah, we're not doing hard stuff.

SPEAKER_02 52:57

I don't even know what the hard stuff is.

SPEAKER_01 52:59

I would never even yeah, the fact that you don't even know. I know. Hard stuff to me is anything like outside of marijuana. Yeah, yeah. Even alcohol is hard stuff to me. Honestly.

unknown 53:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:17

Right. I'm gonna feed the girls. All right, bad people. I like that when you whisper the end of the way.