Bigfoot Social Structure, Trackways, and the Trail Camera Problem w/ Cliff Barackman | Ghost City Podcast

In Part 2 of our conversation with Cliff Barackman, curator of the North American Bigfoot Center, we go deeper into what footprints and trackways can actually reveal about Sasquatch behavior. Drawing from decades of field research, Cliff explains why Bigfoot likely doesn’t form human-like “societies,” but instead shows social patterns consistent with known great apes—overlapping home ranges, recurring size classes traveling together, and large males moving along territorial edges. We also tackle a perennial question in cryptozoology: if Bigfoot is real, why don’t trail cameras solve the mystery? The answer lies in ecology and engineering, from limited camera fields of view to high-frequency sounds that wildlife may detect long before a photo is taken.

From there, we dismantle the Bigfoot migration myth by looking at long-term data—repeated tracks from the same individuals across multiple seasons, pointing to stable home ranges rather than continent-spanning movement. Cliff shares practical field strategies that actually work, including targeting corridors near water, understanding seasonal substrates, and methodically expanding search areas over time. We also explore how focused funding and university-linked research could move Bigfoot studies forward, the origins of the North American Bigfoot Center, and why cutting through hoaxes matters more than ever. If you care about reproducible evidence, smart fieldwork, and pushing the conversation beyond noise, this episode delivers.

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Transcript

Track Finds And Evidence Basics

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I had four, I think four or five track finds last January. Paul Freeman had like 40 casts in his collection over 20 years. You do the math on that one. Like if you go to the woods a lot in a place where Sasquatches are, you will find evidence for them if you know what you're looking for.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

For me, it's always, you know, the idea of you know humans kind of started becoming humans like as we started coming more together, you know, like like forming at least today is today's humans, right?

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Yeah, we're weak, terrible animals. We have no survival ability.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Right, exactly. And and you know, I I understand you know Bigfoot is is definitely uh more capable in the surviving department than us, but for me, it's all I've always been curious about you know, uh Bigfoot society. You know, I I don't think they have one. I mean, I don't think there's any evidence evidence to suggest there is. I uh and you're gonna know way more about this than I do. Um you know, every once in a while, you know, I will hear something about you know, maybe uh a small family union, but me, but that's almost always like an adult, a juvenile or something like that. Like I've and I know like the Olympic project has found like those nesting sites, but that's not society. That's just those are nesting sites. Has has there ever been any evidence as this to suggest that that there is any sort of even loose society-ish amongst society is a weird word, so I I would certainly wouldn't call what they do society.

Do Sasquatches Have Society Or Structure

SPEAKER_02 1:29

The social structure of Sasquatches of is of great interest to me, and that's one of the many things you can learn about by tracking them. Um, I am and I I had a great conversation with Dr. Meldrum. He and I did a gig together in Kentucky in this past June, and we were both put in the same Airbnb without a car, we couldn't leave. And so, like I remember uh the last day of the second last day of the gig, we had a we woke up at nine, didn't have to be anywhere. No, it's Friday, actually. We had a six and a half, seven hour conversation around the dinner around the breakfast table. And Jeff was my friend before that, but yeah, I I just love the guy, I really do. Um and I and I was Jeff always uh would refer to Sasquatches as large solitary apes, you know, kind of like a male orangutan. They go, Well, that's not what I'm seeing in the woods, Jeff. That's not what I'm seeing. He goes, Well, tell me about it. And so I would uh I've been tracking, I've got two main research areas, but I've got a handful of others that I sometimes pop by. Um, and in those areas we're always finding, not always, um, we're finding a 12-inch individual's footprints. And for years, about 40% of the time, we would find the 14-inch within a couple hundred yards of it. Now, and and it's likely that it was there much more often than say 40% of the time, because I'm not a great tracker. You know, I'm a hobbyist tracker. I probably missed it. And Sasquatch prints are not easy to spot, they are snuttle because they have big, soft, padded feet, and this kind of substrate does not record them well. They are not easy to find. Those early John Green books and stuff, as much as I love them, they they give a false image of what Sasquatch prints actually look like in the ground. Um, and I'm telling Jeff, it's like, you know, most of the time when we find the 12, we find the 14 nearby. Um, and I and two or three times at that point, I had found the 15 and a half. Um, so probably the male of the group, right? And and um, and I said, this other area, the outer rim, man, we're finding the 17, the 14, and the eight together every time. It's like I'm not so sure they're as solitary as you're saying at this point. He goes, Well, maybe I need to rethink that. And he's very gracious, so he always listened to me in that sort of way. Um, but that's not society, that's more like social structure. So society implies something more cognitively advanced, I think. And they simply don't have that, you know, they just simply don't. Um the uh the so far, the best model, and I think it needs some tweaking, it's not quite this, but um, as far as the other apes that we know about, the extant apes, um, I think that uh the best model is the orangutan model, where the female and the young hang out in this area, and that usually abuts to another female and young, and the big male cruises through to to drive off his competitors and to do booty calls, essentially. That's that's kind of what the Sasquatch model is shaping up to be, kind of. Um, but it needs some tweaking. It's not quite that, but I don't think I have enough data yet to really propose a better model at this point.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Well, what would help you get that data?

Field Data, Sizes, And Co-Occurrence

SPEAKER_02 4:20

More footprints, more footprints, more time in the woods, um, that kind of stuff. Um, I and because I'm I'm hitting more or less the same areas because I've been successful in those areas, which is probably why I'm finding prints in the same areas repeatedly, but I don't know where else they go. So, what I try to do when I go out, I hit three or four of the main roads, and like I don't go out at night so much anymore. You know, I live in the woods, you know, I've got Bigfoots on the property sometimes. Like I don't need to go to the woods anymore. I live here. Um I I leave at six, seven, eight, nine, ten in the morning sometimes, and I'm back by dark or after dark. Um, so uh I need more time in the woods and more data. But I uh so I hit three or four roads that I find stuff on occasionally. Usually I don't find anything at all. And I try to hit one new area or one area I don't go to very often just to see if they're there. So um I'm doing mostly the same thing because I'm looking for patterns, but then I'm also trying to find another spot that um that maybe they're going there for some reason. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

So for years I've had this idea of starting up uh not a company, but almost like a group of paid volunteers, which would not be volunteers at that point, that would work with somebody who's not me, but we essentially train these people on how to go out into the wilderness based on very high standards and help maybe people like you look for this type of, you know, you said, I need more footprints, I need more time in the woods. Well, what if you know somebody like me was able to pay people to do that? Like, you know, when I'm not saying that you would be involved or even that I'm gonna do it. I'm not really saying much of anything other than just that this is just an idea that I've had where I'm like, you know, we can this is would be easy for me uh to help support. Like, is is is something like that even possible?

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Possible that you start running into issues with um people because people are always the the downfall of all this, right? Um I I think that uh um you know$100,000 would be a game changer for Darby. I think that's a better use of it because it'll get to the end point faster. Because what he needs is a positive hit, and then um and then every scientist from every university is gonna want in on this, you know. I I think that is the faster way to the end goal, essentially. Um, and and that's when real funding comes in, you know, because uh whatever money that you may have to offer to a um to a project like that would be great for that project. But at the end of the day, it's gonna be small potatoes compared to what actually comes into the subject once they're proven as a species. There's gonna be millions and millions and millions of dollars funneled into this almost immediately to get to the bottom of it. So I think that um any loose money that you need to spend, um, I I mean, that's why I do it for my business, is a tax runoff because it's a nonprofit. You you donate money to the university, and that's the tax benefit right there.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Well, I mean, that's that you know, it's not the only reason, but it's a it's one of the big benefits. I mentioned earlier I have a reptile conservation center. So what we do is we breed uh and and actually do a lot of research on the most critically endangered reptiles from around the planet. And we actually work with species that can't be found anywhere else. Um, and we figure out how to get them to breed so they don't go extinct. I mean, that's what$2 million write-off every year for me. I'm like, that's I love them, but it's it's I mean, let's be honest, there's other reasons why you do these things, you know.

SPEAKER_02 7:36

If you want well, if you want to do your passion, it's like I own a Bigfoot museum because I was a teacher, I'm good at it, and I love the Bigfoot thing, and that gives me a reason to go to the woods. Like I'm I I my my my trips to the woods are tax deductible. I that's a dream, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Every business I've ever started, uh, which I think I I have six businesses now, they they all started as just something I wanted to do for fun. There was a point in my life where I I love the idea of ghosts and going out and looking for them and you know doing the research on the history and just being in this industry uh and it actually becoming a real business kind of burned me on that a little bit. But you know, that's why I started Ghost City Tours because I I wanted to go out and spend more time doing historical research and you know looking for ghosts, and I needed a way to legitimize legitimize legitimate Jesus, legitimize that part of what I was doing. Um, you know, I almost started a scuba diving business in Key West. I was really close to pulling the trigger. Why? Because I just wanted to go scuba diving in Key West all the time.

Orangutan Model And Needed Data

SPEAKER_02 8:32

You know, one of Darby, one of the components of Darby's study, if I remember correctly, was looking for animals in unexpected places. So um, and like cougars in Pennsylvania, where they the DNR or whatever says there aren't any, but there are, you know, I've personally seen one in Pennsylvania growing up. There are 100% cougars in Pennsylvania, but they don't recognize it because that means a whole lot of money needs to be spent and and the money just is not there for good work to nowadays. We're too busy killing people, right? It's just one of those things. So um the prior the uh our current government doesn't prioritize learning, uh in my opinion. Um, you know, like science and things like that. So um, but Darby is looking for species and unexpected places where they're supposedly not there, you know. So if you can think of reptiles um in locations, I mean, even as something as simple as the pythons in Florida or something, you might want to talk to Darby. And there might be a use for that kind of money being thrown about and do to do some real solid good, you know. So just throwing that out there. He's got a lot of interesting projects going on.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Yeah, maybe we can uh you know exchange information. I could get uh you know, get his information or even just an email address and you know reach out to him and see what he has going on.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

Oh, yeah. We can reach him through his website if you want. He's got a pretty good website that uh talks about some of the work he's doing. And uh I can put in a good word for you too. He listens to me.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Oh, I appreciate that. I mean, even here in Louisiana, you know, Louisiana is kind of known for you know alligators, bugs, and um, you know, the good old boys club. I I love ripping on Louisiana. Um, but we have uh just recently there was a Jaguar sighting um here. And then uh so so this one, I know I I do not blame you one bit if you don't believe me, because half the time if I didn't write it down, I'm a big fan of whenever anything weird happens or strange happens. I write it down right away because I I know even my mind, I don't want to be adding details to it later, thinking I'm being honest, but my mind is just hallucinating on what I remembered. I saw a main wolf here. I know I saw a main wolf here. That I mean the long legs, do you are you familiar with the the main wolf?

SPEAKER_02 10:30

No, I've heard the name, but I'm not I'm not familiar with the species.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

So essentially it looks like a cross between uh like a red fox and a wolf, but its legs are like supermodel legs, like super long, you know, legs. I saw one on the road that I live on, main wolf. Like so talking about weird animals in weird places, that was uh that might take the cake for me.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

Jump to Darby, you know, it might be an interesting guy, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Yeah. Well, well, Cliff, I didn't want to you know take up too much of your time today. Actually, we're we're the guys behind the thing that were like, Can you keep it through an hour today? I'm like, guys, it's about Bigfoot. I I can't promise anything. Like we might be here halfway.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

I don't think I gave you anything good, man. I don't know. No, you're gonna be able to cut this down to 45 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Yeah, they're they're gonna cut it down to about an hour. But you know, uh the Bigfoot ones are hard for me because I I I am super passionate about it. And half the time I find myself just listening to what you're saying. Like, you know, it's hard for me to interview sometimes people that that are passionate about the same things I'm passionate about. You know, the ghost stuff I can ask questions one right after another because I'm not taking it all in. Like everything you've said today, I like I'm absorbing all of it because I'm like, it's almost like tell me more, tell me more, tell me more. And I almost forget that I'm supposed to be interviewing you. Like, um but that also makes it good.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

Um Yeah, those are the best podcasts when it just turns into a conversation, I think. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Well, I mean, I I would love the chance, you know, to to help out in any any way that I can, you know, if it's uh, you know, with the research, whether it's with what Darby's going on, you know, uh not to be presumptuous about anything. But if you ever need you know help with anything, I I I always willing and and really enjoy contributing to causes that I'm passionate about. And and I guess in this case I'm calling Bigfoot a cause. But you know, if there's uh you know a piece of equipment you guys need or anything, like I I I just want the help, you know, that the that nope, I I totally appreciate that.

Funding Paths And Scientific Buy-In

SPEAKER_02 12:15

I don't I and people have asked me before, um, like what how can I get like what can I buy you?

SPEAKER_01 12:21

And by the way, I wasn't implying that you can't please do not take that the wrong way.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

Um I've got a business, I can buy stuff, I do it all the time, you know, and then I'm I'm really an independent guy who likes to stand on my own two feet. I don't take a lot of handouts, honestly. Um, and any like and I despite I know the goodwill that comes behind it. I try not to deny, because you know, like I want to be generous to people, and by me saying no, it deprives those people of being generous, and that's not an appropriate thing, I think. We should encourage kindness and generosity through in everybody. Um, I just don't have need. Because like honestly, because the thing, the things that I the like bobo's one of these guys, oh, if we had this kind of equipment, if we had this kind of gear to be over, I don't agree at all. I don't think it's I don't think it comes down to technology at this point. I think it comes down to boots on the ground. Um, and you can't buy time. You can't, you know, essentially. Um I I think that the money should be funneled to Darby. Um, you should develop an area near you that you like to go to for other reasons than Bigfoot and see if Bigfoots are there. I mean, go to Bigfoot areas, but like, you know, go fishing or something, or mushroom foraging, or you know, or birding or something like that. Do something else in these areas because that's how most people see them. They're doing something else.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

We got a few areas down here. You know, as you know, you know, Louisiana's in the you know, Oregon or Washington, but we got, I mean, some of these are within 20 miles of my house. Um, you know, the Pearl River Valley, you know, of course, anyway, everybody knows, you know, the what is the honey, honey island swamp? Yeah, all that stuff. But honestly, nine months out of the year, it's too fucking hot down here. I'm not going outside when it's like a hundred degrees.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

No, but you can use that, you can use that to your advantage to find them. Um and Moneymakers showed me a lot of that stuff. Like, where's the where do the deer go? Where's the coolest areas you can find? Well, it's probably near water somewhere. Um they probably go there too. You know?

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Now, do you think though, do you think the ones in the you you mentioned that that Bigfoot in your area, you're saying we do not believe that they migrate. Um, do you believe that Bigfoot in other areas, maybe in the South, maybe they would migrate at all? Or you are you still thinking like maybe they're still kind of staying put?

SPEAKER_02 14:24

I do. I mean, why would you leave if everything you need is there? Is it and the only good data I have out of the south is in Kentucky. And that's from Tom Shea, the great Tom Shea, probably one of the best Bigfoot researchers to ever live. Um, he's quietly living a little life in northern Kentucky right now. Um, and um and his data shows that he's finding the same animals' footprints all year round. And in his area, I've been to his area, I've never been so cold in my life than the cold in Kentucky. Holy crap. It was 16 degrees, but it might as well be negative 40. It was so ridiculously uncomfortable. Um, yeah, he's finding tracks in the snow, he's finding tracks in the heat of summer. It doesn't matter. The same animals. So his data also strongly suggests they don't move.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

I think that might be my biggest takeaway from this because I even coming into this, I was still like, you know, everybody says they migrate, you know, they they're they're moving here, they're following this, they're they're you know, weather patterns or whatever. Um, so to hear you say that, I mean, on on on one hand, shouldn't that make it easier to find them though?

SPEAKER_02 15:22

Man, you okay. So yes and no. It's like, oh, it's it's only it's only a hundred square miles. It's a hundred square miles, dude. Like I couldn't find them in one square mile, you know, like it it it that's a big area, it's it's huge. So it yeah, it should make them easier. And and you know, maybe when drones get better or something like that, that'll be helpful, you know. Uh maybe, but then again, how I mean drones can't see through trees. So I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

No, I wasn't implying that I believe that they're easier to find. I just know that these are the questions that people are gonna like. Yeah, they're gonna be like, you know, if there's black bear there and I've seen a black bear, you know, uh, oh, if they stay in the same area, why haven't you found them yet by now? I just know that that's gonna be the next person's question. Yeah, I get it, I get it.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

You're not putting up cameras at these spots that keep coming back. I do, I do. They're not they're they're they their patterns are not predictable yet, is the bottom line. Their patterns are not predictable.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

Well, uh, I'm glad uh I was actually getting ready to say, like, is there anything else we could talk about? But I'm glad you brought up the camera thing too, because that's something that that we got a lot of heat from, like from uh actually the Matt Money maker interview. Like we got a ton of comments and complaints and you know, people saying that we're stupid, you know, all the stuff that you know the internet, yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

That nameless voices and bots on the internet goes.

Unusual Wildlife In Unexpected Places

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Yeah, exactly. But but you know, every once in a while somebody has a uh not necessarily well, every once in a while somebody has a valid point, but sometimes, you know, it's it's one of those okay, I I understand where you're coming from, but I I you know I still think you're wrong. But one of the things people keep asking is why don't these trail cameras seem to work? And I and I'm I'm kind of under the impression, yeah, uh I was kind of under the impression that I think maybe they do. We're just not talking about it, or or or what what is going on? Like, because the general public seems to think that they have this special ability to detect electronics from hundreds of uh yards away and they just avoid walking in front of them. What's what's really going on?

SPEAKER_02 17:12

Is it that they avoid them and know that they're there, or is it just that nobody's well, first of all, uh trail cameras only pick up a very small section of the forest, like you know, a hundred square feet or something like that. And uh predicting where the Sasquatches walk is very difficult. And I mean, I know I said several times this very podcast that I've found tracks in the same spots um before. And and it's like, okay, well, I do have game cameras on one of the spots, and we just haven't got one yet. We just haven't got one, you know, um, just hasn't done it in this past year. I think this camera's been out for about eight or 10 months, somewhere in that. Okay, so they haven't been back. Um, and who knows how old those tracks were when I found we found tracks nearby, right down the road, actually, about 50, 80 feet away. Um, at the outer rim, that place I mentioned, um, uh, we found tracks like two years ago in May, and then this past year at the end of June, six weeks apart, about 150 yards away. Right. So they go to the same areas, we just haven't got one yet. We're working on it. I've got three, two or three cameras in that general area. So, but two or three cameras isn't very much considering how big this area is, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:11

No, that's nothing.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

We do have pictures of Sasquatches on game cameras. We absolutely do. Um, several of them are on display at my museum, actually. Um, the the Clackamas River photograph is one. Um, we have a picture from uh on Alaska, up Washington is what it's called. There's this town called On Alaska by Chehalis. Um, we have a picture from there. Um, we've got another one to oh, we've got a picture from uh Chehalus, Washington, the Indian Reservation. Um, we've got but we've got quite a few pictures, and there's several that I'm not allowed to share. Like literally not allowed to share. If you're in the same room with me, I'll show you. I'll show you on the phone. But I I'm not allowed to publish them because I don't own them. Um and and the reason is because these people, sometimes the people who live in these areas, they get these pictures, the most valuable thing they own is the reputation. And at this point, when most people think that Bigfoot is either nonsense or some ridiculous topic because of the proliferation of hoaxes and paranormal beliefs, why would they show that to somebody and ruin every ruin their life? You know, why would they show? We have there's a great picture that um I've never spoken to the witness, um, but I know somebody who has. And uh, I've got a lot of background information on this particular photograph. I think it's real, I'm confident of it. Um, we tried to get her on the TV show. I my my producers told me that they talked to her and they said, Hey, love to have you on the show, it's a great picture. And they said, No, see, I don't want the attention because, okay, we'll we'll blur your face and change your voice electronically, that brenotes you. And they said, No, no, no, no, I don't want no. The only thing I want is be able to hunt my property and not be afraid, and you can't give me that. And so the the the the picture as of this day goes unpublished. Um, there are photographs. Just because the general public doesn't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Well, and then the ones that they know about existing half the time seem to turn out to be hoaxes, which doesn't really help the cause either.

Non-Migration And Home Range Insights

SPEAKER_02 20:00

A lot of hoaxes and a lot of people, even the stuff that I think is real, like Patterson Gimlin film or the Freeman footage, for example. Um people just shoot down those ideas and and uh and mythology develops that oh, it's been debunked or something. Oh, like wasn't the the guy on the uh admit that was a fake on the deathbed? No, no, it's a totally different story. That's Ray Wa Ray Wallace. Um his sons said that Ray Wallace invented Bigfoot after Ray Wallace died. And there's just so many the telephone game um does rumors in the telephone game and mythology does a lot of damage to the credibility of this field because it proliferates bad information constantly.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Yeah. I mean, has has there been any new novel approaches to field work or any new, you know, without giving away anybody's possible secrets or techniques or anything? Like, like how is field work actually advancing other than you know, maybe some more cameras or drones or anything like that? Has anybody come up with so I'm gonna give you an example and I'm I'm I'm gonna you're probably gonna be like Tim, you're you're an idiot. When I was in Oregon uh about two months ago with my wife, we were driving, actually we were driving up through the Logo Passage, and this idea just hit me, and I'm sure it's incredibly stupid. But I was like, you know, I wonder if anybody's taken a picture of themselves. I'm almost like like like a selfie framed it and put it throughout the woods where these animals might be passing and see it. That way, if you're in that area again, they might actually recognize you from the photo. And then I was like, well, wait a minute, what if you and trust me, I know this sounds dumb. What if you took a picture of yourself standing with a a Bigfoot? You know, not literally, of course, you might have to Photoshop a Bigfoot in with yourself there. Frame it and put it throughout the woods with maybe a little glow light hanging on it, just so they see you standing with them, literally you, so that next time you're in their environment, they might recognize you from that picture.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

I don't even think you need to do that. I mean, I I've known people who left uh like cartoon drawings, like children's drawings of Sasquatches out. I've known people who leave um uh mirrors in the woods, then hoping that it elicits some and all those are incredible things to do, but how would you know if Sasquatches were there, I guess? Um, because I kind of do think that they Can detect electronics. I think they hear them. I think because like you're about my age, I'm guessing. I grew up in the 70s. I don't know how old you are, but like I'm pegging you for in my general area, you know?

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Almost 46.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

46. Yeah. So you're you're a little less than 10 years younger than me. Um, but uh um you remember when you were a kid, at least I could. I could hear when the TV was on in the other room, even though I couldn't like I'm not talking about the voices that I was playing. Like you can just put the TV on and I can hear that high-pitched whine. Yep. I suspect that they are sensitive enough in their environment they can hear things like that, but I don't know that. Um, I think they have a broader um frequency range in their hearing, because I do think that they use infrasound, for example. Um, the sounds that are too low to be heard by humans. There's there's decent evidence I think that's a reasonable hypothesis. Um, I also think that they probably hear stuff above human hearing, and that electronic whirring would be part of it. There was an engineer that lived out in Wisconsin that um explored that idea a bit, and he took um, you know, I don't know, a handful of the consumer level game cameras and tested them for um is it supersonic frequencies, like higher than humans can hear? And they all scream at higher at higher frequencies, except for one or two brands, basically. Um they all emit this high-pitched noise that could be heard. Well, Saswatches, I think, might be able to hear that. And even if there's a game cam in the area, maybe that turns them off from going to those areas. I don't know. I don't know, right? I honestly don't know very much about Bigfoots, but I'm I'm trying to learn, you know.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Right. Well, that's where all the fun is. Uh yeah. What do they say? The the the the the fun is in the journey, not the destiny. I I don't know. Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

I'm doing Bigfoots for the same reason I go on a walk. It's not the destination. I always come back home at the end of a walk. I do it because I enjoy it.

Trail Cameras, Detections, And Real Photos

SPEAKER_01 23:45

I mean, for me, it's just just just the not knowing, you know. To me, that's what that's what keeps me hooked. You know, like I said, I have a celebration of our own ignorance. Yeah, like I I I am not a big foot researcher. I've as I've stated many times, I have no intention of being one, but it's just this idea of that that that there's something out there that that is beyond the normal that you know we can help be a part of, you know, not not be a part of their world or something, but just be a part of helping you know bring that in bring that into the the world for other people to see, you know, or just to satisfy some internal curiosity, which is never gonna go away. Because if it wasn't for Bigfoot, I sugg I I suspect you'd probably have something else that you'd be insanely curious about. That if it wasn't Bigfoot, it would be something else. It's just you know, yeah, that that's what you got hooked on. I'm the same way.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

Yeah, it just happens to be what fell in my lap, and I'm a weird guy, and you know, got weird interests, and you know, and I'm kind of a contrarian in a lot of ways, and you know, like internally rebellious and that sort of stuff. And Bigfoot fits all the checks all those boxes pretty well for me, you know. It's like you don't know about the coolest, biggest, smartest, fastest thing in the woods? You're an idiot, you know. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Well, well, you took that a step further, and yeah, and you've mentioned it a couple of times, but you did start the the your own Bigfoot museum there in Boring, Oregon. What what brought that about? What made you say, you know, I think I'm gonna build a museum here for Bigfoot?

SPEAKER_02 25:04

Well, I mean, after the TV, the TV show, we filmed for nine years. You know, we started filming in 2010, ended in 2018, and um, we filmed for nine years, and I was an elementary school teacher before that. And in the in that nine-year period, um, my credential expired. So after getting off the TV show, I mean, you gotta make a living. I'm not a wealthy guy, you know. I mean, I'm not a monetarily wealthy guy. I have what I need, you know, which is great, you know. Um, and I've got something the billionaires will never have, which is enough, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:33

Um, but uh I'm learning that lesson slowly in life.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Uh enough is awesome. And I said, okay, well, I still have to make a living. What am I gonna do? And I and but because I was a teacher before uh when I got picked up for the show, I was used to making not very much money, you know. So I I was cruising along at my$40,000 a year salary or something like that. Um, and I never really changed my lifestyle on the road. So I I I you don't make a lot of money on TV, but the later seasons we started making what I thought was a lot of money, you know. Like I said, oh my god, I'm making six figures. This is amazing. I've never done that my entire life, right? Um, I was thrilled. Um, and I just saved it all because I was on the road. There's not really nothing much to spend it on. I get fed a meal or two a day on the production company, and I just saved all that money. And so I thought, well, when I get, you know, when I re-entered civilian life, so to speak, I could go back to teaching, but my credential expired, and that would be another four or six thousand dollars I got to throw out of university plus a bunch of time to get my credential back and all this other stuff. Um, they say, well, uh, why don't I do a you know, somebody suggested actually, um, there's a great Bigfoot museum out in Georgia called uh Expedition Bigfoot. Um, they had the name before the TV show did. Um, they kind of narked it from them. But um, and also another good friend of mine is Lauren Coleman, who has the uh um International Cryptozoology Museum up in Maine. Um, they were both instrumental in encouraging me. So, well, Cliff, you have a bunch of stuff. You have like one of the biggest cast collections in the world, outside of Dr. Meldrum at the time. Um, so why don't you make a museum? This is kind of a fun way to you know pay your bills, basically. And I started thinking about it. I said, Yeah, it really does kind of work with what I my background, you know. I've I've got a head start because my name recognition because the TV show. Um, it's basically education. And I was an educator for 14 years before the TV show grabbed me. Um, and I do have kind of a lot of Bigfoot stuff lying around. So um, and I thought, well, this is a way I can continue studying Sasquatches, um, so to speak, not on my dime, even though it is on my dime, you know, like it's just like you in the reptile business you were describing. It's like uh, yeah, why not? And the Pacific Northwest, oddly enough, in Oregon of Washington, didn't have a Bigfoot museum.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Right. You think that's crazy. If anyone would have one, they would have one.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

So yeah, you would think so. There's one in Northern California. There's the Willow Creek Museum down in Northern California that houses the Bob Titmus historical collection. But that's and then there was one in Felton, California about Santa Cruz. Um, but actually they went under. I have their collection now. Um, yeah, Mike Rugg is a good friend of mine. He he uh he's still alive, but um he he retired finally, so his collection came to us. Um, yeah. So well, that there it is. I I guess that's what I'm doing. And um it was horrifying. Oh it was horrifying. In fact, it was horrifying enough that you know, small town monsters, those guys like Seth Riglove and those guys, yeah, and uh Eli Watson and all they're a bunch of great, great people, great film production company. They do most like a lot of talking heads paranormal stuff, you know. They do something dog man, which I don't believe in either, but they do a lot of great Bigfoot stuff. Um, and they made a film and released it about the founding of our museum. Um, it's called uh Preserving Sasquatch, I think is what it's called. They released it this past June. It and it kind of tells the story. It has great um footage from when we were building things and the trials and tribulations of opening the museum and all the problems we had and the successes, and then COVID hit, and it was a mess, man. It was a mess.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

No, I mean something like that. It takes a lot of balls. I mean, even myself as a business person, somebody came up to me and said, Hey, we want to open up a Bigfo museum, I'd be like, is that gonna work? And I'm sure you have those questions from time to two.

SPEAKER_02 29:08

I'm not a business guy at all. You know, and and I'm constantly reminded of that by my mistakes and flubs, and and but luckily I'm a victim of a lot of divine accidents where I like, you know, I'm the kind of guy that, you know, I don't know. I I I I trust my luck more than my skill. I say it almost every day. I'm not a good businessman, I'm just a good man. And it seems to work out for me.

Hoaxes, Myths, And Evaluating Evidence

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Yeah, no, I sometimes I think that's better. And and trust me, business people, we make a shit ton of mistakes too. Um far from perfect. But I but just knowing what it takes to establish a business. And I'll be honest, I've never opened a business like a museum type business. That you know, the within the past couple of years, we've opened up a couple of retail stores in some of our cities, but even that's scary as hell for me. Like, and like I really don't know what I'm doing. So, like, you know, Bigfoot Museum or something like that, I would never touch that. So kudos to you for pulling that off. And you know, it seems like it's going very well.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

You know, dealing with the world of television, you know, because I work for Animal Planet that is owned by Discovery, and I and all up and down the corporate structure, I see just regular people doing their best, making mistakes, throwing a ton of money around for all sorts of ridiculous things. Like there's a lot of money moving around in the television world, you know, and I think a lot of industries are like that, where you know,$30,000 is just what it takes or something like that. Um, and I seem like these people aren't, I mean, they're good people and they know what they're doing, but they're they're kind of not that special, you know, like like if if they can do this, I think I could probably do this too somehow. And I don't trust, I don't want to do TV stuff. They they know that business and the whether they have the connections. I think that's what it is. It's really a lot more about who you know, um, and that kind of thing. And since I spent 30 years or whatever it was almost um in the Bigfoot world before I opened the museum, um, I think that um my Rolodex was full of people who liked me and wanted to help. Um, you know, and so I just got lucky, I guess, and it worked out.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

So the the general area, like you know, you're you're being I don't know, is uh Sandy, boring is that are this considered suburbs of Portland or you know, is it just kind of you know, we're just kind of close to Portland, like maybe just kind of rural Portland.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

I mean Gresham, which is nearby, Gresham's about five or seven miles from Sandy and Boring, Oregon, where the museum's currently located, is about halfway in between. Gresham's a suburb because it's connected. I don't know, but born that, but you know, Sil uh Sandy is an island. Um, boring is an island, so I'm not sure they'd be they might be might be so.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

What do people in your general area think of you coming in and opening up a Bigfoot museum? You know, I I I I suspect that people in your area are probably Bigfoot believers and and and they're on board with the idea and like you know, they're they're happy to see something like that pop up. But but is it one of those things where uh because somebody opened up a ghost museum in New Orleans, and then this is this is why I'm asking, they took so much flack because New Orleans was like, we're tired of hearing about ghosts, get your stupid ghost museum out of here. And I it doesn't sound like anything like that happened for you, but but how are the locals when it comes to supporting your museum or or you know uh being Bigfoot believers? Like how do how do how do I guess I'm asking it, what does the community look like around you there when it comes to this subject and and the museum?

SPEAKER_02 32:19

Generally very positive, I think. Um because it is the Pacific Northwest. A lot of people up here, a surprising number. Um, skeptics would be flabbergasted um at the number of people who've had Sasquatch events in their life or personally know somebody. Like I when I was still a teacher and I'd I'd like that, I'd live close, I would lived in Portland at the time. And I'd go to like restaurants or bars with my buddies and have a couple beers or something like that. I I'm not bashful about the Bigfoot thing at all, you know. And so I'd say I'd I'd ask people I just met, do you have you seen one or do you personally know somebody who has? And I got a yes answer about 20% of the time, but 20% of the time. Um, and that's in that's in Portland, that's in town in Portland. And when you go out of town, it gets even higher. Up in Quinault and stuff, I tried that same experiment. The answer was pretty close to 100% of the people that I spoke to had either personally seen one or knew somebody who said they had. Um, so it's not a surprise.

Novel Field Ideas And Electronic Noise

SPEAKER_01 33:13

I I'm not I'm I'm a little bit more uh hesitant, but I did try that. So the every time I've been up to Washington and or Oregon area in years past, I I do the same thing. Like, hey, have you have you seen one? But I can't come out and ask them directly yet. I have to like go around the subject a little bit. So I don't even remember what I the story I was using last time. I was I was like, Oh, I'm just visiting, you know, I have relatives that were in the area, uh, and I'd kind of do that, like, I want to hear you guys have big foot, but I'd kind of do it with like a little smirk or something to try to make them think I wasn't serious.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

I'd give them the the the the the the cold dog stare, you know, because I'm I'm what you like.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Right. But no, I I it was funny. So I my this was my wife's first time being in Washington or Oregon, and I told her that I said, Hey, you know, you know, for me, one of the what the biggest things that that happens that makes me feel comfortable in in my belief and knowing that this animal is real is just listening to people's stories when I go out there. And and you know, I've done it like one tenth of one percent of what you have, you know, like barely any. But everybody seemed to have a story, no matter where I went in Washington or Oregon. Like the last time I was I spent any uh lengthy time prior to this trip in in Washington was actually Packwood and Ashford, um Washington. And everybody had a story there. And uh so I told her this, and sure enough, we get to Washington a couple weeks ago, and like one person had a story. I was like, I was like, where did all the people with stories go? But um, I mean, they're there. We had uh you know, we had we listened to a woman, she was working in one of the little stores in Quinult. You know, there's like those two little markets, I guess you call them. There was a little old lady in one of them pulling around her oxygen, and you know, we were in there. It's one of those old country stores you walk in, it's like they have three bags of chips, a bunch of fishing lures, a box of cereal and some milk, and maybe some wine if you're lucky. And uh Queets, actually. That was who what? It sounds like Queets. Was that what it was?

SPEAKER_02 35:10

Oh, but yeah, it's uh just north of Quinault Lake, actually, just north of Quinult Lake. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

Yeah, this was on uh the what do they call it, the South Shore, I think. Like right past the gas station when you're going back. But even even she had a story, you know, talking about you know Bigfoot, and then she was telling us about how we're friends with Park Range are there and he's seen it a couple of times. Last time he saw it was you know, crossing the path when he was doing his rounds. It's just everybody has a story, you know. And I think that the number's probably even higher um than than your 20% or whatever, you know, it has to be.

Motivation, Curiosity, And The Journey

SPEAKER_02 35:42

Yeah, so the Pacific Northwest is very welcoming to places like the NABC, I think. And and Boring Oregon, you know, nothing against the feed store, but we're the most exciting thing in boring, Oregon, you know. Yeah, and and and and the fact that although the the the local community, like uh um the they don't have a chamber of commerce or not even that big. Sandy has one, but boring doesn't. I was asked to come in and and do a talk to the they have a town council or something like that. Um do a little presentation about what I'm doing. And the guy who invited me, he uh he he was an odd guy, pretty oblique personality in a lot of ways. Um, he said, like, I don't even care if this is a scam, I think it's gonna be good for boring. I think a scam. It's like I'm not scamming anybody, dude. It's like, all right, well, whatever, at least you're welcoming me in. Uh yeah, so but but uh they're they're generally very welcoming. Of course, the I don't hear the the the shit talkers, you know, because they're not coming in the museum and and telling me I'm every once in a while we get some curmudgeon in like that. We had some old dude sitting, we have a couple like little benches, you know, that people can sit. And there was an elderly gentleman sitting on one. This is last summer at some point, I think. And um, and I his family was in the museum, and I was working the counter or something, but I know his whole family was in there. It's like son and daughter and granny. And this guy's sitting out there, and I'm thinking, well, he's probably just elderly, and it's like, well, and I said, Hey man, like I know your family's in there. Um, and they all paid to get in. I'm the owner. Why don't you go in for free? You know, and just spend time with your family, go enjoy it. And he goes, Oh, there's nothing in there for me. And I go, Oh, all right. And then then his then a few moments later, like maybe five minutes later, his son comes out. He goes, Dad, come on, I already paid for you. Why don't you come in? He goes, I don't just no, no, not gonna go in there. Nope. It's like, wow. But I guess so. Every once in a while, somebody has it that is very offended by the idea that Saswatches might be real in some sort of way, you know. I guess people don't like their cage shaken too hard, you know. But I personally welcome it. My the the the most growth I've ever had in my life was my when it was when my cages have been shaken the hardest, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:38

That's true, yeah. Well, no, I'm I'm I'm I'm glad to hear the museum is doing well. And I like you said, you the I was supposed to be coming to your museum to do this interview, but my I took that vacation and just they kind of I wouldn't say the vacation fell apart. We still really able to rock a little bit, but I ended up in the hospital. Then my mom ended up in the hospital and we thought we were gonna have to fly to Pennsylvania. And it was just it, I wouldn't say it was a complete mess, but it was a mess enough where I was like, I'm not gonna be able to do this interview. Uh so you know, but I promise next time, not that you're looking forward to my visit that much, but I promise next time I will come to the museum. I I'd love to check it out. Um, you know, see what you have going on there and uh you know, help get the help get the word out about it.

SPEAKER_02 38:19

Well, you know, I we I mean, I'm not trying to sell you anything or whatever, but we do have a membership program for people who don't live in our area where I kind of keep up keep updates on what's going on at the museum, new displays that go up. Just yesterday, uh I spoke to a witness on the phone and he gave me an eyewitness drawing that I posted for the witnesses. Um, and then of course, once a month, we also uh make uh short video documentaries, um, about 10, 20 minutes long that we we give to the members. I'm I'm putting the very, very old ones, like a year or two or more old. I'm putting those on a public YouTube page for people to enjoy so they can kind of get a taste of what we're up to at the NABC. But um, you know, the museum membership, it's like six bucks, and I think I think it's worth it, but that's just me. I'm also a Bigfoot nerd.

SPEAKER_01 38:59

So right, I think razor prices six bucks.

SPEAKER_02 39:03

Well, we have other tiers or whatever that give other benefits, but I I started at six bucks because you know, page it's a Patreon thing. I'm trying to, but Patreon nickels and dimes you, right? So I I'm trying to get five bucks, so I made it six. Um, but uh I noticed that people were giving me more money. Some people were giving me 20 or$50 a month, or even if somebody was giving me a hundred. And I said, Well, shoot, I don't I don't feel right about taking money for nothing. So I made these other tiers that they get little benefits, like their names are in the credits of the documentaries and they're like cute little things like that. Um, you know, but but six honestly, six dollars a month, unless you're you know already wealthy and you want to help me, you know, six dollars a month is where the real value is because that's where you know the cool stuff happens. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

Now aside from again, I'm not a good businessman, clearly.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

I'm like, no, no, no, no, you don't you keep your money, don't worry about it to me.

SPEAKER_01 39:50

Hey, I mean, well, you know, you like like you said, you're not you're you're not a businessman, you're a good man, you know, and and just think that's more Bigfoot stuff.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

Very blessed.

Founding The Bigfoot Museum

SPEAKER_01 39:58

Now, aside from the museum, you also have the podcast that you do with Bobo, uh Bigfoot and Beyond. Uh what are your plans with that? Is this something that's just gonna keep going on forever, or is it um you know, that that question totally came out wrong, by the way. Um is it something that you guys are are envisioning yourself doing for quite some time? I guess that's the same damn question. I know what I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

It's not just coming out right, but it's been going on for six years already. I can't believe that people listen.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

I was gonna say, honestly, you guys just do a good job, and I'm not just kissing your butt because you know Oh, it's Matt Pruitt.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

No, but you should hear the slop we record. Matt Pruitt polishes a turd every single week and turns it into gold. I mean, I swear.

SPEAKER_01 40:42

That's why we have these uh two wonderful guys behind the computer here because I'm best.

SPEAKER_02 40:46

I I wish I had an editor in my everyday life, it'd be so much easier for me because of the dump stuff I say. I say, can you just take that out? And I say, Yeah, no problem. I'd love to have an editor following me around. But um, but yeah, but but I you know, I think it is is that there's an awful, you may have noticed there's an awful lot of paranormal podcasts around, an awful lot of them. And then and Bigfoot is unfortunately lumped in with paranormal at this point.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

And by the way, there's an awful lot of awful paranormal podcasts.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

Some of these some of these podcasts are written and performed by AI, and people don't even know, you know, like there's just no content to them, and the and it's terrible stuff. But um, luckily, Bobo listens to quite a few podcasts, but Matt Pruitt's kind of a connoisseur of podcasts. He listens to a good number of them, not just in the realm of Bigfoot either, like outside stuff as well. Um, and I don't listen to any, any at all. I don't know how anybody has time to listen to podcasts. I don't listen to my own.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

I yeah, I was gonna I was literally gonna say that. I don't even listen to this one.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

Um no, I already know what I said. I mean, and uh the only thing of interest is like, how did Matt make that better? You know, that horrible time I put my foot in my mouth. What did Matt do to that? That that that's but again, I I probably have listened to honestly one or two of my podcasts out of the I don't know, 300 something that we've done, or I don't even know how many we've done at this point. It's been six years, so um yeah. I mean, well, I I think we just I think what but the I'm sorry, but let me but the the point is that Matt listens to enough podcasts that he knows the good from the bad. He also listens to bad podcasts to hear what they're doing wrong. Um, and he keeps saying what we have going is it's not just the name recognition, Cliff and Bobo or anything like that. You know, the TV show certainly helps. We have a built-in audience, it's easy to switch that over, right? Um, but you know, our podcasting platform isn't nearly as large as the TV one, which is fine. Um, but we have is we have two people. I don't consider myself an expert, I consider myself a learner of Bigfoot stuff. We have two people and Matt as well that have basically devoted our entire lives to the subject. We have been doing it for decades. Bobo's been doing it longer than I have, and I'm at 30 something years now. Um, and Matt's at 20-something years, he's younger than me. So, like he's 20-something years, he's a lifer as well. We have three people who will never stop this Bigfoot thing, who are legitimately curious about the subject, who perhaps aren't expert, but Bobo's wildly entertaining. Um, I I think I convey information pretty well, but I think I rub people the wrong ways because uh I'm I'm I I'm I come across as arrogant and stuff. And I am a little arrogant. I get it. I think I'm right, you know. But what most people think they're right, I just come at it a little bit more strongly than others, you know. Um, but I I think that you get what you get in our podcast is authenticity. Like we're really doing it, we're really interested in this. It's not a fly by night thing. I'm not looking for clicks. I don't give a damn about the podcast. You know, like you said earlier in this, I don't know if you're gonna keep that in or not. Like, in a way, I'd rather not do the podcast. But at this point, it's grown into something where I kind of it sure helps me pay me, helps me pay the bills. You know, it's a job.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

Yeah, that part's definitely staying in. I I I I I tend to just be honest, you know, I'm just a real person, you know. I and and and there are days where I'm like, why the hell am I doing? Honestly, this whole Company sometimes, and these guys are gonna look at me funny. I'm like, why am I doing any of this shit? Like, I'm fine, like I just want to go live in the woods and be peaceful and grow carrots and like you know, watch birds all day. Like, why am I doing any of this?

SPEAKER_02 44:13

Um, yeah, but but you know, it's an authentic thing, and and and the the audience can smell authenticity, I think. You know, they can sense it. Um, that's why a lot of the shows don't last. That's why a lot of the podcasts are come and go, and that's why that's why a lot of the podcasts revert to clickbait, is because they can't get people in in any other way. We don't do clickbait, we don't saturate your your stream with advertisements for the show. Like when the show comes out, we do a Facebook post, that's it. That's all you're gonna hear from us all week long until the next one comes out. Um, we don't care because we're just doing this like the Bigfoot thing. We're doing the Bigfoot thing because that's what we do. And the podcast is a great way to reach a lot of people with interesting things, or if there's some new development, or and and half the time it's just Bobo and I talking like shooting the shit together, you know. But but luckily, at least Bobo is a charismatic enough person that people tune in, you know.

Community Response And Local Culture

SPEAKER_01 45:06

I I used to have a co-host, uh Stephanie, and she was mildly entertaining. We we kind of rift off each other pretty well, but then all of a sudden they're like, no, Tim, we want you to do this on your own. That's where I was like, guys, I am not entertaining. Like, I don't know what you're you're thinking is gonna happen here, but uh it seems to go well. I but but you guys definitely have a good energy between the two of you, you know, as co-hosts of the show. And I and I and I think that's really what it is. You know, you you you said it, you know, it's authenticity. Like, there's no way you can do 300 episodes where 99% of the episodes you guys have done are about Bigfoot and not be incredibly passionate about Bigfoot. And that shines through in everything you guys do. Um, you know, whether you're talking to you know the the witnesses, which by the way, some of them actually most of like the witnesses, I don't even know who half these people are, you know, but but you do a really good job of you know getting their story out of them in a way that that not only humanizes them, but but you know, makes Bigfoot real. Uh and and I think that you guys have always done a good job at that. That's why I I've I I haven't listened to many episodes over the last maybe four or five months, just because life has been crazy. But prior to that, we listened to every episode. Like I said, we listen to it in the every road trip, Bigfoot and Beyond on the radio to the point. Uh I think you enjoyed it though. Yeah, she said she does. I don't know if you can hear it.

SPEAKER_02 46:21

Well, again, Matt Matt curates it for the like Matt tells me all the time, and because for me, everything I do, whether it's the museum or the podcast or or interviews with people like you, um, everything I do it isn't for me, you know. I'm not advocating Cliff. I'm advocating the subject, because the subject deserves it. And I don't think it gets what it deserves from most other places. So I'm trying to put a good put a good face on the subject is essentially the doing it for the critters in a way, you know, not the critter, but the subject. Um, and I think that um the uh uh it's again like the authenticity of it, and I you what you get from Bobo and I, Bobo also does it for the subject, but he's nuts. You know, Bobo's crazy in a lot of ways, and I I love the guy like a brother, but we're so different. We're so different. You get two different takes, and then Matt proves a genius in a lot of ways. Um, he Matt always says the most important person on the call is the listener. You know, and I I I always think no, the it's the Bigfoot subject. And Matt goes, no, no, it's the listener. We're curating an experience for them with what you say. And he massages it, that third every single week and polishes it until it shines. Um, and people like your wife, for example, who are civilians in this subject, um, they if they're listening and enjoying it, then Matt's doing a great job. I just show up and I blab about whatever's in my head at the time, don't think much about it, and then Matt turns it into gold.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

Yeah, honestly, this is my only connection with the outside world. Like I said, I didn't leave my house for 17 days, 14 days, whatever. So most of the days it is. But this podcast for me, it's essentially like I want to just have conversations that with people that I think are interesting. And if the the people out there in Ghost City Land happen to find it interesting as well, that's cool. Um, you know, I don't I don't really have many chances to interact with the human race, uh, just because I'm so busy and usually surrounded by lizards instead of people. Uh, but you know, it's just I I find these things interesting and and hopefully they do too. And it seems to take off. I mean, our first season, which by the way, we had no expectations for season one, and I think we ended up with like two and a half million views on YouTube alone or something. Like it was it, and by the way, I'm taking no credit for that. I don't know how that happened. I am not that great of a podcast host.

SPEAKER_02 48:38

I just an example of the divine accident, right?

SPEAKER_01 48:41

Yeah, yeah. Like, but um, so so what's next for you when it comes for Bigfoot? You know, I know we talked about kind of what what's next for the museum and all this other stuff. Like, like Bigfoot Cliff wakes up next week. Like, what are you doing going forward?

Membership, Media, And Support

SPEAKER_02 48:54

Same old, same old man. I'm going to the woods once or twice a week if I can. I'm looking for more footprints. This is the time of year we find footprints in a lower elevation. So I'm hitting those spots right now. Um, most of my life lately at home, at least, um, you know, I cover hours in the shop one or two days a week. I'm there kind of a lot, but I'm I don't cover hours necessarily. Um I'm I'm mostly dealing with the Meldrum collection at this moment. Um, yeah, because uh his collection is pretty expansive, as you can probably imagine. And I'm trying to get it organized in such a way that I can do something with the responsibility that I've been given. Um, I'm already seeing that I probably need to write some books. Um, people have been pushing me to write some books for a while anyway. Um, but I I think I need to write a book on like the um like what what my thoughts on Sasquatches basically. Um I think I need to write another book, which is for like a definitive history of the Blue Mountain evidence, because the Blue Mountain evidence, the Paul Freeman stuff, gets thrown under the bus all the time by people who don't understand the the um who the nuanced history of it. Um and there's a lot of misconceptions about it. I think it's very, very good evidence and the skeptics throw it under the bus all the time.

SPEAKER_01 50:03

Well, his son wrote that book, right? It was his son, right? The Yeah, yeah, Michael.

SPEAKER_02 50:07

He's a good friend of mine. I talked to him all the time.

SPEAKER_01 50:09

So I bought that book and it was really eye-opening for for me too, because you know, you're right, there for the longest time, it was like the Freeman footage was kind of you know, always played second fiddle to the Patterson Gimlin for yeah, I was gonna say, and for obvious reasons on one hand, but you know, even just the way it was, it seemed like a lot more people far thought that was just fraudulent or you know, he's he's this is fake or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

And what it comes down to, the reason why people don't like it is because there's no way that one guy can be so lucky and have so many footprint casts. Bullshit. Bullshit, complete nonsense. I was uh, you know, in for example, like uh we were gonna do an end-of-the-year look back on Bigfoot and Beyond for the podcast. And so, like, I can't remember anything. I have a horrible memory. So I was going through my photographs and then it's like, what can I talk about? You know, that sort of thing. It's taking notes. I had four, I think four or five track finds last January. Paul Freeman had like 40 casts in his collection over 20 years. You do the math on that one. Like if you go to the woods a lot in a place where Sasquatches are, you will find evidence for them if you know what you're looking for. Um, so the fact that Paul was too lucky, therefore he must have been lying, it doesn't hold any water. And a lot of this is coming from the old timers, like Renee Dehndon and Peter Byrne and those old timers like that, who weren't as good as Paul Freeman was in tracking and saw things that they didn't understand and they thought it was hoaxing instead of just the way that a foot interacts with the ground.

Podcast Craft, Editing, And Authenticity

SPEAKER_01 51:38

Um sometimes I think it's just dumb luck. So you know jealousy. Yeah, well, that too. Um, like you know, I've been up to the Pacific Northwest a number of times, and every time, except for one trip up there, I've had something happen or or or seen something that would is like Bigfoot in nature, right? Like the first thing that ever happened to me, I was driving from Esticata, Esticada, however you guys say it down to uh Bend, you know, then kind of like down through the way that goes down through Detroit and over to Bend because we were staying in Bend. I could show it to you on a map. I forget the name of the National Forest Road. We I was driving real slow one night. Um, ex-girlfriend was in the car, thought Bigfoot was a bunch of shit, totally stupid. Why would anybody believe in it? One of those kind of people. But we were driving with the windows down really slow, and all of a sudden we heard just that classic Ohio howl. It was that like that very you know what I'm talking about. I was almost in shock, where I'm like, I like my brain knows what it is, but my brain also is kind of like not wanting to acknowledge what it is. And she looks over at me and she goes, That's a fucking Bigfoot. And I'm like, I uh uh like I know, like I, you know, it was it was uh so that happened. I mean that that's all that was. Uh the the next time I was up in uh the hoe rainforest, and there's a there's a little road off the side there. And I would love to send you this video as well. Uh it's about a 10-minute video where essentially I was photographing the whole river. My ex-girlfriend and my daughter were up on a hill behind me. As we got back to the car, they said they had thought they heard something moving in the woods behind them. Okay, no big deal. We're getting in the car, we're gonna go. Well, off to my right, there was a path that went down to the river. And I was like, well, maybe there's a better photograph angle from down there. So I walked down there. I was down there thinking pictures. Ex-girlfriend walks up to me or runs down to me. Oh my God, we just thought we heard a mountain lion in the woods. And I go, What do you mean? She's like, you know that. And I'm like, then what the fuck are you doing out of the car? Get back to the car, first of all, if you thought you heard that. Um so we I'm walking back to the car, and as I'm getting in the car, like the the road that we were on is kind of cut into a hilltop, so you can't really see the forest floor. Um, but as I was getting back in the car, I heard something walking in the woods over here. And you know, I grew up in Pennsylvania, I was a hunter, I was all I grew up in the woods. I I know what it something walking on two feet sounds like, as you know, something compared to four feet sounds like for the most part. So immediately I started recording on my phone. And and like I said, I'd love to show you send you this video. It's just it's a little shaky and stuff, but it's on my phone. I probably walked 50 yards down that dirt road the whole time. This thing is right beside me. I can't see it. I'm not working up enough courage to kind of climb up the little bank and see what's up there. The whole time it was following me. And then once we got far enough away, you'll hear it on the video where I don't know if it was just thrashing around in the woods, but it sounded like it was starting to run at me. And at that point, I fucking ran. Like, I'm not gonna lie. Like, I was like, I I don't know what this is, and you see that, and then I stop. And but, anyways, after that, I stopped walking and I and I realized, like, no, Tim, like like if this is a Bigfoot or whatever, this is what you came to see. What are you afraid of? But even that in itself was like a thing, and easier said than done. Yeah, and by the way, I never saw anything. I'm not claiming it, but what did happen, and you can hear this very clearly on the video, is off in the distance, all of a sudden you hear wood knocks. Now, a couple months ago, probably two or three months ago, I pulled that video up. It's always been on my phone, it's never been anywhere but my phone, but I put it on my big computer screen at home because now that I kind of know how to edit video and stuff, I wanted to show my wife this clip. Well, towards the end of it, we both saw a brown figure towards the end of the video walking off in the distance. I had never seen this on my phone, and I'm not saying it was a bigfoot, I just you know, I don't know. Um that was interesting, yeah. But that it was just it it walked beside me the entire time, you know, kind of keeping up with me, but you know, just far enough off where you know I could still hear it walking, but not too close. When I would stop, it would stop. It was it was very unnerving. Um, and by the way, the whole time my young daughter was yelling at me, Dad, get back to the car. Like, where are you going? Maybe it's a Freeman thing where it's just like you sometimes just get lucky. Maybe, maybe he was just a lucky guy.

SPEAKER_02 55:59

Well, he was in an area where Sasquatches are, just like my my two areas. They go there sometimes, and you find stuff. If you go there enough, that there would be years that Paul Freeman never found anything, but he'd still be going all the time, and no one talks about that. Um, but it the fact that there and and also he was also eventually casting multiple prints from the same trackways, you know, two or five at a time. But the most he ever did was five, to my knowledge. Um, Dr. Meldrum cast seven um in his trackway in 1996. Um, and by then Paul was out of the game. He was tired of the people being, you know, calling him a liar. His foot was super bad. Like he couldn't go, he was walking with a cane, he couldn't go more than a dozen yards or something from the truck. Um, but yet he was accused of hat hoaxing these trackways that went seven miles up into the mountains. It doesn't make any sense at all. So I think one of the next things I'm gonna do is uh write a book about the history of that. Once I get again, a lot of this stuff is coming from Meldrum. I've got my own um resources, of course, but Jeff inherited a lot of stuff like this this one here, this tape I showed you earlier with Wes Summerlin, who's one of the people in the Blue Mountains. Um, this was almost certainly this might be from Dr. Meldrum, but it also might be from Vance Orchard, the guy who wrote um the Bigfoot of the Blues and um Walla Walla Bigfoot. Because I've got a bunch of diesel jobbers too, these micro cassettes, um, that uh are our he was a newspaper guy and he would go interview people and record them so he'd get the stuff straight. Well, I got probably 50 of these things that are like Vance Orchard interviewing various people, you know, which is where that AI thing comes in. And also, uh, I put it out to my museum members like, hey man, I need a mini disc recorder or a player, you know, so I can hook up to my Pro Tool system that digitizes, and and they came through. So, you know, I don't know. That's what I'm doing right now. So um, and I I might be working with some people to do a small documentary on some things that uh have been surfacing lately. Um this is never ending, man. I think the whole my whole issue is that I realize I'm not gonna live long enough, you know, because I think eight Bigfooters, if we want to eight Bigfooters have died since September 9th, um, when Dr. Jeff Meldrum checked out. Then one of them, of course, is Jane Goodall. I never met Jane, but I knew the other seven. I personally knew all seven of the other ones. There's been a uh an uh an astonishing statistical coincidence that so many Bigfooters have died in the last trimester of the year.

SPEAKER_01 58:26

Um that might mean that uh your chances are good going forward because at one at some point those numbers are just ridiculously high and they can't be that high. So maybe you're you're safe for a while.

What’s Next: Fieldwork And Books

SPEAKER_02 58:35

Yeah. Well, as I grow older and it's like, oh, I'm 55 now, how much time do I have? Um, I need to spend my time pretty wisely here.

SPEAKER_01 58:43

Yeah, I mean, there's there's I I think you were just getting to that age where just we're noticing a lot. I mean, of course, the Bigfoot community is different, but just in general, like you mentioned Jane Goodall. I mean, Jane Goodall was absolutely one of my childhood heroes. Like I, even as an adult, I respected her immensely. It was uh, you know, I had the opportunity to meet her at uh a speaking engagement she was giving in Texas, and I was very excited because it was the VIP tickets. I actually was going to be able to sit down with her and and you know, ask a couple questions or whatever. And then COVID hit and the whole event got canceled. And I did the opportunity to to see her in person never happened again. But even from the wildlife, you know, I'm a big wildlife conservation guy, you know, just she was an incredible hero of mine, and yeah, that was very unfortunate. But I think you're safe, Cliff. I think I'm good too. I I had that little time. Yeah, I think we're all good.

SPEAKER_02 59:32

Um trying to lose some weight, trying to exercise out in the woods a couple times a week. You know, I'm doing the best I can. Um, it's just to try not to get distracted by too many things and sit down and do it, you know. So we'll see. There's there's always a what's next and when, you know, until I check out and then I'm done. Well, until then, you got to keep busy. Yeah, I'd like to be a little less busy, honestly, but that's all right.

SPEAKER_01 59:52

Yeah, it'll be all right. All right. Well, uh, Cliff, I really appreciate you you joining us here today. If people wanted to learn more about the museum or the podcast or anything else that you have going on, where could they do that at?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:03

Well, you could uh go to the well the museum website and North American Bigfoot Center.com. Podcast is uh bigfoot and beyond podcast.com. There's a player in there that's it's free. You can listen to every single one if you want. Um about 300 episodes behind or so. I don't even know how many, but um, and you know, I've got my own website, cliffberickman.com. I don't really update it. There's a there's a the uh a nascent version of a track database on there where you can see what some of the tracks look like in the ground. Um, but yeah, that's kind of what I'm up to. You know, I'm just doing my own Bigfoot thing in my little corner of the world. So I don't I don't do social media. I have social media accounts, but if I didn't have the museum, I would just delete them all immediately. Um, it seems social media is mostly a way to show off your particular form of mental illness, and I don't really participate in that. So um, but I mean it if I'm putting something on social media, it's mostly because you know, I think it's uh maybe cool. Like I did post a historic picture on a Twitter feed lately, or X or whatever it's called nowadays. Um Facebook's like I don't know. I I can I I prefer Twitter or X just because I if I'm gonna get abused, I'd like it to be confined to a certain number of characters, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:10

I never thought of it that way. Um that's a good point, though. All right, Cliff. Well, I really appreciate you joining us here today. Um glad to hear, you know, the museum's really taking off and uh you know more and more people are becoming interested in Bigfoot. Hopefully, you know, with platforms like the museum or your podcast, we can just help getting people interested in Bigfoot in the proper way, like we talked about. You know, let's leave some of this goofiness behind maybe a little bit and start treating them and thinking about them and talking about them like the real animals. I think that that's a real good takeaway from this as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

Yeah, well, thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to to spread the word, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:44

Yeah, no worries. All right. Well, I appreciate your time and uh until next time, Cliff.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:50

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