Mrs. Dow Jones spills the financial tea | Haley Sacks

On this episode of Broadlines, host Rae Williams sits down with Haley Sacks, aka @mrsdowjones to talk about her brand-new book, Future Rich Person: The New Rules for Building Wealth. Haley has helped over 2 million people get fluent in money, and in this conversation she breaks down exactly how to stop feeling broke and start building your own wealth. From the biggest lie women have been told about money to why "learned financial helplessness" is keeping you stuck to “expense maxing” and “girl math,” Haley is here to help you take control of your financial future.

EPISODE CREDITS...
Hosted by Rae Williams
Directed by Sydney Kramer
Executive Produced by Sydney Kramer and Rachel Apirian
Produced by Sydney Kramer and Rae Williams
Filmed & Edited by Chanelle Tyson

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Broadlines is a production of The Female Quotient and recorded in Los Angeles, California. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

The biggest waste of money is on things that you don't value.

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Your last impulse buy was water at the airport. I feel rich when. When I am with my family and friends. And I feel broke when. I always feel broke after a vacation. Like, even though I don't like like if financially I can afford it, I'm always like after that week or two away. Patch me eating ramen.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Welcome to Broadlines, a weekly video podcast by the female potion where real headlines meet real conversation. I'm Ray Williams, writing solo today. I'm an entertainment, a lifestyle, and culture journalist. And today I'm talking about a topic that is always on the tips of our tongues. And of course, it's money. So if you've ever wished that your smartest and most financially savvy friend, I know who mine is, but if you wish that she would just sit down with you and tell you everything you want to know about investing and finances, that's exactly what our guest Haley Sachs built a career on. She goes by Mrs. Dow Jones on social media, and she's helped more than two million people get fluent in money. Fortune named her to the 40 under 40 in 2020. Adweek called her the creator of the year in 2022. And the Wall Street Journal called her the financial guru millennials actually listen to. She hosts the Financial Tea podcast on Sony Music. And today, literally today, May 12th, her debut book, Future Rich Person: The New Rules for Building Wealth is out in the world. So please welcome to Bradline's Haley Sacks. I can't believe it's pub day. This is not an easy thing that you've done. It is not. I know this for a fact. I've written a book and it is terrifying. And then launched it, you're like, thank you so much. And I'm so excited to be here. So let's get right into it. Uh, I'm gonna ask you what the biggest lie is you have been told about money, just to start off the road.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

I think the biggest lie that I've been told, and most women have been told, is that it's greedy to want money and that we should be passive about it, and that it is something that is sort of unfeminine to take control of and talk about and control.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Yeah. And I see that, and in fact, there's a lot of conversation I feel like online about that recently, about the fact that like you can be unapologetic about making money and going for money and also now investing money. Um, so I think that's really uh interesting because I think that is one of the biggest lies we've been told. Um, and then you have this podcast, which is called Financial Tea. And the premise is essentially that here's a tea that rich people already know, but that nobody's spilling. What is the most surprising thing that you've learned about what wealthy people actually do with their money that the rest of us aren't doing?

SPEAKER_00 2:42

I think with the wealthy people that I've sat down with for the podcast, the biggest thing that I see is just an optimization. Um, and look, that's why I wrote Future Rich Person, the new rules of building wealth, because the system was created for the people that it serves. But if you have the knowledge to work the system, even if you're not, you know, the richest person in the world, you can still get yours and win because it's those who know how to play the game that are going to get paid. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

And I think a lot of people think that the game is really complicated to play. And that's why they don't start. Like I know for me personally, I mentioned to you before this conversation, I am new to not new to money, but new to knowing what to do with money. I grew up in Jamaica. We just have a completely different system. I came to the US, I'm like, credit cards, credit, of course. Like, what is all of this? Like, I'll never forget one of the one of the things that happened to me is I took out a Victoria's Secret credit card. Oh, girl. I know. And I know when we can't happen to anyone. I know when I read your book, we're gonna find out why that's not the greatest thing. Um, but I took out a Victoria's Secret credit card. I don't even think I put anything on it, or maybe I did, but basically they sent me to collections at the end of the day for like three dollars. Oh no. That was on it, and it was like the most you know what I mean? And I just was so predatory. Yeah, and I didn't get it. So I think a lot of people, you know, like just see the system as being predatory and don't understand. So, what in your opinion is just like the thing that makes it not as daunting, or how do people approach it so it's not as like scary?

SPEAKER_00 4:19

The real key for it not to be scary is financial literacy. But I think that for a lot of people, financial literacy is scary. How many times do we buy financial books and then put them aspirationally on our bookshelves, but then we never actually crack them because it almost feels like punishment to read them. And it feels like it's going to make your life smaller to try and like grow wealth because oh, maybe I'm gonna have to deprive myself. And there's just all these misconceptions in our head. And that's why it was so important for me to write this book because it's actually fun to read. Like it's like it is.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

I'm skimming through it. I'm just like, oh, wait. Yeah, you make it like you have a lot of like acronyms in there.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

You have like a lot of like references that I really have culture references, so many real life stories of mine and of people of my audience. Like it's sort of this is financial tea. Like it's so juicy juicy. So it's like you're getting the brownie with spinach in it, but it's just so important to have that base of financial literacy because that's how you can win the system. Like, you won't be in that position where you're at Victoria's Secret and the sales associate is saying, 40% off. Yeah, you can discard, do it. You'll you'll have me in your head, I'll be your little guide.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

I know one of the quick things I read um in here, because I haven't gotten to go through the whole thing, but I got to at least read some and skim through. And you have an interview with uh, I think she was a teacher, and she was saying, and I think this especially for millennials, like we're still stuck in this loop, where she is talking about um the brunches that she's floating, and she's like, all of her friends are like doing down payments, yeah. Like, you know, like, you know, buying your cars are paid off and she's like invested in brunch. And she mentions that the first thing that she did was just start a spreadsheet. Yeah. Um, what are some of your like very early things that people can do to get into being a future rich person?

SPEAKER_00 6:18

That I mean, that is such an interesting story, right? Be and I think that we all have that moment where we are sort of doing our finances based on vibes, and we think that our friend group is all in the same position, and then you start to realize, like, oh, this person's buying a house and that person's having a baby, and you're sort of like, wait, I thought that we are all on the same page that like we're not taking this that seriously, and then you start to feel really behind.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Um, but you know, I start the book. The first part of the book, it's four parts, is all about mindset. Because if I can teach you anything about emergency funds, paying off debt, investing, what credit cards to get, all of these great financial lessons, but it's never going to stick in your head unless you figure out your why. Because behavior is all about identity. So if you continue to identify as someone who's not good with money, even if you have these tools or this knowledge, you're gonna still act in the way that that old identity, you know, tells you to act.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Yeah. I think that happened with me in my comparison is like me and my brother, is you know, I we're like all doing the same things. And all of a sudden, now granted he lives in Louisiana, so it's a little bit financially more, I guess, cheaper than LA. But I'm looking at the things he's able to do, and I'm like, wait, weren't we both taking vacations and being frivolous and doing all of this? We're already doing that. So that's um so interesting. But what is a financial risk you think that's only risky if you're not already wealthy?

SPEAKER_00 7:51

I don't think that it so I will for this one, I'll say I think the financial risk that's risky, it's not necessarily wealthy, but if your finances aren't set up is investing because the stock market historically goes up, you know, like that is all the data shows that, but over seven years. So over those seven years, it can dip and it can go up and down and up and down. And so if you invest your savings without having anything on the side, maybe you have debt in the stock market without having an emergency fund set off set up and paying off your high interest rate debt, then you might need to pull your money out of the stock market when it is down. Yeah, and you're going to lose money. Um, and so that's why in the book we have a whole chapter on investing, walk you through exactly how to do it. But I say at the beginning, warning this chapter is only for people who have an emergency fund save and no high interest rate debt. Do not skip go. We have to get those done first before any money goes in the market.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

Okay, I just made a mental note of that. That's like make sure you're set up before you get it. Yes, yes, yes. Um, but you actually grew up on the upper east side of Manhattan. Yes. You grew up surrounded by wealth. Yeah. Your dad was actually, he works at Goldman Sachs. He doesn't know. He still does. Yeah. And you say you knew nothing about money. And I'm like, well, how is that possible? Because you have like the access to it. So what was going on that kind of like made you check out or not invest in learning, I guess, about it worse.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

You know, wealth can be inherited, but financial literacy cannot. And so even if you're surrounded by money or maybe you grow up with means, you're still not gonna understand how to play the game, how to you're not gonna have the confidence to, you know, grow wealth, to earn wealth, if no one, if you never invest in learning yourself and or no one teaches you. And so for me, I basically like if LeBron James's daughter couldn't shoot a free throw. Like my dad does this for a living and he's really good at it. Um, but he never brought it home with him at all. And so I think it actually sort of boxed me out more him having this like high-powered job that felt so unapproachable and like high stakes. And so it almost made managing money feel like even less like something that I was gonna be able to do because I felt like I missed a chip, I was missing a chip. Like I'm pretty tight B. Like I'm a millionaire and I run this big business and I've like done all this stuff, but it's like I was on a date last week and my hair caught on fire. If you go on to a bar with me, I'm gonna use my passport because I don't know where my license is. Like it's like I and so I thought because of all because I'm not the girl with the hair washing schedule, and I'm not on uh walking on the incline with the rotisserie chicken and like the you know, just like so scheduled out and the perfect handwriting that it wasn't for me.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Um, and so yeah, it really all of these could that's why you have to work on your self-identity first before you actually make financial changes because you realize the stories that you tell yourself really keep you stuck.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Yeah. I've I've been a lot kind of thinking about the the fact that like the bad with money, and I know that's something that you just said too, and that you tell people is that if you identify as someone that's bad with money, that's how you'll continue to be bad with money. What are some of the things you think that people that have that mindset do?

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Well, so I think that that mindset, and I there's a big part of the book is this idea of I coined it called learned financial helplessness. Um and so the idea of learned financial helplessness is that you know, you're looking outside of your locus of control to um inform what actions you take. And so you're basically like, okay, the economy is shit. I got student lows, I'm never gonna own a house, AI is gonna take my job, I'm on a floating rock, the world is burning. Okay, I'm gonna invest in looking rich instead of being rich. Maybe I'm, you know, using buy now, pay later for Coachella, whatever it is. I, you know, am going to quiet quit at work because who cares? Like, you know, this company's not even gonna be here soon, anyways. I'm not gonna invest because, like, I'm not what? Like that, that money when I'm 65 isn't even gonna be worth anything. Like, you know, you you talk yourself out of all of these things, but future rich people don't fall for learned financial helplessness and they realize that they do have to start with themselves in order to create change.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Yeah. I love that you mentioned buy now pay laders because obviously those are the I mean, they've they've been around for a while, but I think in the past like three years, they have been just kind of the pinnacle of people's spendings. What are your opinions on those?

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Well, girl, like if buy now pay later has no haters, then I'm dead. Like I've try I'm truly in like the amount of money I could have retired by now if I'd taken any of the deals from them that they've offered me to like stop talking about them because there's interesting. They come for me all the time, or they now they know better, but like there were so many because I started the moment they came out, I was like, no, no, absolutely not. Like, we're sh this is something I really gotta, you know, talk out against. But so predatory is that people use them thinking that it's a zero percent interest rate, but what they don't realize is that if you don't pay those payments on time, the interest rate is actually higher. The APR is higher than it would be with a credit card company. You're not building any credit. And this whole idea of breaking things down into smaller payments, something that you can't afford, makes it psychologically so much easier to justify it.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

Oh, I know. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

And so then you're you're taking out loans for things that don't um increase in value. Like the best way to leverage debt, which I talk about in the book because rich people love debt, is to use it to buy assets, to use it to buy things that are going to increase in value. But if you're using it to buy like a reformation dress that you're gonna probably like, you know, bring to Goodwill in three years, you're not getting anywhere. So, you know, and that is learned financial helplessness too, though, where you're focusing so much on lifestyle instead of life building. And that does keep you stuck. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

I in it's so interesting because I I had a little love affair with the buy now pay later in the beginning, and quickly learned that it's exactly what you said. It makes it so much easier to spend all of this money because I'm just like, well, I'm not paying for all of it now, but I'm kind of paying for some of it now, and there's technically no interest. My my policy now is I only use it for flights. Okay. And that's my like I'll I'll allow myself to do that because the flights to Jamaica are like for no reason, like sixteen hundred dollars a pop. And I'm just like, I'm I'm not doing it. Yeah, and I'm like, okay, so I'll I'll use it for those only, but like it's so tempting. So a future rich person would not be using buy now pay later.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

No, they but but I will say that and I talk about this in the book where and whenever I post about it too, I get the people who are saying, Oh my gosh, I but I use buy now pay later to like finance my Peloton, and it I you know it was great. I didn't pay any interest on it. And it's like, yeah, there's always gonna be those people who are using these predatory services correctly. Correctly, yeah. The person who probably has a Victoria's Secret card and like, you know, milk that 40% off and they won. But that takes a lot of strategy for most people. You have to keep it simple and just have systems and automation, and that's how you're going to build wealth.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

Yeah. And as you talk about systems, one of the things that you tell us that wealthy people do is negotiating everything. So their bills and their subscriptions, insurance rates, and then you have the phrase expense maxing. So tell us more about what expense maxing is and how you actually use it.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Okay, well, obviously, we're all obsessed with looks maxing, clavicular.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

What do the kids say? There's another, oh, aura maxing.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Aura maxing, moging. Like, I really I mean, I'm sure like anyone who's Gen Z is watching us is like, wow, those girls are cooking. Oh, cringe, yeah, cringe, cringe, cringe, but like, yeah, we're maxing everything. And so the truth is the cost of living has gone up so dramatically since 2020. Wages have increased 7%, but the cost of living has increased 67%.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

67%? So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

So that's like, you know, we can get so much less with our money and we have so much less of it. And so expense maxing is all about negotiating your fixed costs because that's something that rich people really max out on, and they know that all of these companies will play ball with you because it is so expensive to acquire a new customer. Yeah, it is so much more pricey for an insurance company or your uh, you know, cell phone bill or you know, any of the utilities. It's so much more expensive for them to spend the money to market and find someone to replace you than it is to just cut your bill.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

So expense maxing, and look with car insurance, especially, people are saving on average when they compare car insurance rates, $500 to $1,000 because new customer rates are so juicy. So, you know, I'm all about financial energy. I talk about this in the book. Like, you know, especially as women, and I think this does sort of keep us down. It keeps us in the patriarchy because obviously money is power. They don't want us to have power. So they've distracted us. They've said, okay, you know, focus on couponing, focus on not buying the avocado toast, not getting the latte. Or, you know, I talk about in the book, um, you know, I when I first started my financial journey, reading a whole blog post about how bad it was to buy pre-cut vegetables, how I need to, you know, slice my own onion because the pre-cut onions are like $2 more and that's a no-no. And it's like, okay, girl, that's not gonna move the needle.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Instead of putting that financial energy towards like, oh, like where can I get the lowest uh loaf of bread? Let's focus on negotiating our fixed costs and negotiating our salaries. Let's focus on, you know, in vet learning how to invest. Let's, you know, focus on increasing our financial literacy. Yeah. Because that is going to move the needle so much farther. It's gonna get you in 40 years, will have such a bigger impact on your life than like these five $10 cuts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

And I know like sometimes you don't even have to necessarily do that much. I know um I had a medical bill the other day. It was with like my favorite thing in the world to negotiate. Oh, and I'm gonna ask you how to how to actually like call and do a script for you.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Oh, tell me. Well, no, like it's it's in the book, but also like when you buy the book, you get access to all these resources, additional resources. And one of them are the scripts that I use to negotiate fixed expenses and to negotiate medical bills. I'm very good at that. Yeah. Because by recall, 90% of medical bills have errors. Simply by asking for an itemized bill, it will usually bring down the cost because they'll they're gonna be like, Whoopsie, we charged you $300 for one Tylenol.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Oh boy. I know that for Cedars, I just went in and I saw the size of the bill and I was like, what the hell? And there was like a button, like just a button that was just like, oh, click if you need like financial help with this. I'm thinking like, and I clicked it. You're good. And I didn't think anything of it. I was like, and then there was like a form that you were supposed to fill out, and I was just like, this is not even gonna move the needle, and I just didn't, I didn't even bother. And like, I don't know what happened, but like a week later they were like, Oh, bill has been forgiven. You're good. And I'm like, wait, what did I don't even think I submitted the form right? Like I just scrolled. Um, but I've never tried calling my insurance, so I'm gonna do that like this afternoon.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Oh, call the car insurance for sure, but with the hospital bills, call the hospital, ask to speak to someone, and yeah, ask for itemized bill, ask for their financial assistance services. Like you're leaving money on the table if you don't negotiate those hospital bills.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

I'm I'm definitely gonna do that because like that just that's that one example was like, okay, I need to do this more, but insurance I'm gonna do. What else can we do it with subscriptions as well? Yeah, subscriptions for sure.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Like whenever I like cancel subscription, whenever you say that you're gonna cancel a subscription, they're like, wait, what if we gave you four months at like 50% off? Like it's you know, and sorry, and this is the that's expense maxing. Yeah. Where you've gotta be, you know, mogging nonstop for those lower prices because that's also gonna move the needle so much more than that avocado toast.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Like saving $500 to $1,000 on your car insurance. I was thinking about this with gas when gas was so expensive. You know, at first, all the advice, like I wanted to give advice about, oh, here's how to find the gas station that's cheapest for you. And it's like maybe gonna save someone, you know, $10 at the pump, which great, $10 is a lot of money, but that doesn't really help you that much. So I was like, wait, what could actually help people? And it's like, no, we gotta think bigger. Bigger, yeah. We gotta be strategic. It's not, it's like, it's about being smart and not, you know, going Erwan for everything so that you're like, you know, you gotta go to the grocery stores at a well or well priced and all those things. But, you know, it really is about focusing your financial energy on the things that are actually going to get you the biggest ROI because you don't have an infinite amount amount of it.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

There's only so much energy that you can put towards your finances every day. You have a full life. So do I. And this it doesn't have to be a full-time job. That's the other best thing about being a future rich person, is like you set up your systems, you have your money dates, and then it's like great, you're on your way to building wealth and you can still watch Bravo and go out with your friends and go to visit your family in Jamaica and all these things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

And we're gonna get into money dates because I think that's an important one. But I do want to ask you because people, every time we mention anything to do with avocado toast or coffee, I the comments go crazy. And especially I think millennials who, you know, those are some of our comforts. I will say I have cut back significantly just because I realize I was spending like a whole lot of money. But what is your actual opinion on that kind of like system for for being a future rich person? Is, you know, the the cutting out of the avocado toast, or maybe like doing your nails or like doing those, you know, like I guess everyday things that we consider to be luxuries that we're like we can't, you know, be sane without them.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

I think that there is this idea. That to be good with money, you have to feel deprived. And I think it keeps it kept me stuck, you know, because it prevented me from wanting to take control of my finances because it felt like that was the end date of a fun life. Okay. The moment that I get serious about this, party is over. It's over. And that's not true. The truth is that you can have anything, but you can't have everything. So, like, for example, me. I don't care that much about getting cool coffees because I don't do that well with caffeine. So like I'll get it, you know, if I'm for the vibes once in a while, but like I'm only ever gonna drink like three sips because I can't handle it. But there's some people where that really moves the needle for them. But I love getting my nails done. I'm gonna get my nails done. Yeah. Like I I get my nails done once a month and it is, you know, $120. And it's something that I won't give up.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Um, and but I am investing, I have an emergency fund. I don't have high interest rate debt. Like I'm able to have, and I there's a future rich person spending guide in the book that shows you that in order to grow wealth, you actually do need to spend money on the things that bring you joy.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Because otherwise it's unsustainable.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

Um, and so it's important to have balance, but you can afford anything, but you can't afford everything. So it's about figuring out what moves the needle for you.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

I love that way of thinking about it. Cause I think for me, yeah, like nails are I I'm on camera all the time. Yeah. I think like nails and lashes for me, even though it seems silly, is also an investment. It's not career.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Yeah, but women are told that these things are frivolous. Men can sports gamble and they can do this and that, but we're told, oh no, like that's you're we're so crazy bad with money because like we get our nails done and whatever. And it's like, no, actually, data shows that women earn 30% more when they look better. So sorry, I'm investing in my earning potential by making sure that I look polished.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Like we need to take women seriously.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

I and that brings me to this question is what do women apologize for financially that men don't? And one, like you said, is just appearance and nails, but what are some of the other things that we're apologizing for constantly that men don't even think about?

SPEAKER_00 24:21

Yeah, I think that it is a lot about how we spend money. Like it's like we are really conditioned to think that how we spend is frivolous. But I will also say we apologize for wanting more.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

Like it's almost like it's an embarrassing thing. We're greedy. It means we have bad values, we're gold diggers, all this things. I would say I'm a gold digger who has her own gold. You will never catch me walking down the aisle towards someone. They don't have to be as rich as me, but they definitely have to have the same money mindset as I do and have the same goals. Like, you know, who you marry is the most important financial decision of your life.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

Yeah. Of course. Um, and then of course, there is this kind of hustle culture that we have um in society. And I think, you know, I think we're we're around the same age. So we also came from the, you know, the the the extreme hustle culture of the 2000s, 2020s. What when was that? Um, but what is, you know, when a regular person has three jobs, it's you know, div like it's not called like a diversified income stream, but when a rich person does it, it's the same thing. Why do you think that we still have this mentality of like hustle culture around, you know, kind of creating different streams of income?

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Well, okay, I I think that so, and I talk about this in the book that especially with TikTok, there's been a glamorization of side hustling and of hustle culture, but uh around 60% of J Gen Z has side hustles, but only 10% of those can uh supplement like actually like supplement and take over their incomes. So a lot of people are focusing a lot of time and energy and like there's a whole tax implication on building these other revenue streams because it financial energy, that's where they're putting the financial energy because they think, oh, if I'm a future rich person, that's what I gotta do. I can't have one job, I gotta have a ton of jobs. And I talk about in the book how actually that's super dangerous and doesn't actually get you to where you want to go a lot of the time. Like, you know, I talk about in the book a nurse who works at a hospital who's working a hundred hours a week and wants to increase her income. Should she side hustle? She's working a hundred hours.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Like, when are you gonna side hustle?

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Like in your sleep. Exactly. So, how this is where rich people get it right that, you know, I give you these rules where it's no, it's about optimization. So it's being like, hey, let's take a step back. You have this whole skill set as a nurse. Could you work as a private nurse instead? And then you're gonna work less hours, but you're gonna earn more money.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

You know, so thinking about okay, does it have to be that I'm working more or am I working smarter?

SPEAKER_01 26:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

And I will say that with rich people, with their multiple revenue streams, those are not revenue streams that they have to maintain in the way that someone who's just starting a new revenue stream has to put in sweat equity.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Like if you're an investor and you're getting paid dividends on something, you're sitting back, you know. But if you like are selling all your clothes on or and you know, start a resale business and you're selling all your friends' clothes online, you've got to photograph everything. You've got to list it, you've gotta, you know, negotiate with the buyers. Like there's so you gotta ship it out. So it's also about, you know, thinking about the time implication.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Yeah. Um, let's talk a little bit about girl math because you've been I love that you roll your eyes immediately. You're like, no, I hate it. Um so you you of course hate it. You've talked about the um the idea of it just being really harmful. And for those of you who don't know, girl math is just kind of rationalizing um spending, but we uh we attribute it specifically to to girls and to women. And, you know, there's a version of this conversation that is kind of more interesting to me because I think there are ways of thinking about it smartly, um, where you're also not minimizing yourself as one, a woman and two as somebody who's, you know, bad with money. Um so tell me your opinions on girl math and why it is harmful.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

So girl math is exactly as you said, this idea that basically women have to trick themselves to uh like make financial moves. Like it's like, okay, I'm returning this sweater. So then because I'm getting that $100 back on my credit card, it means that I made $100.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Um and so been guilty.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

But it it I'm sure, but it's like it I I it went in the culture because it's something that like we a lot of people identify with and can see themselves in. But I think what's harmful is a that it's called girl math because it's why do we have to feminize um these financial choices that aren't really like strategic or optimized? But I think what also really just upsets me is that it feels that there's a feminization of being bad with money, yeah, where we think that it's like cute and girly and like feminine to be sort of like subservient and like airhead about it and like let him take care of it and just like I'm just a girl, like whatever, you know, like the numbers I can't, you know. And that we are in such an amazing era for women, like you know, 1974. That was when women could first get their own credit cards. Yeah, we couldn't get business loans till the late 80s on our own. And to me, there is nothing more feminine than being in control of your finances because that means that you get to decide where your life is going to go. And so, yeah, I just I don't I don't know why we have to gender it. And I also um think that it keeps us stuck and not taking full advantage of the power that we have now.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

Yeah. And so going back to your your book, um, so future rich person, the the argument is that rich people aren't rich because they're smarter or luckier, they just know how to to build wealth. Um, and especially in this country, and I'm coming from somewhere that like we did not have, we don't have a credit system. No, it's not. I don't have like it's so confusing. But what's the rule that made the biggest difference for you that people should know, especially people new to finance in general?

SPEAKER_00 30:32

I think the biggest rule that made the biggest difference for me was really just the rule of treating money like a relationship where you know, in your life, in any of your relationships, you're talking about your boyfriend. I'm sure you guys go on dates. Like you're talking all the time, you're in communication, you're building something together. And for many people with their finances, it's a vibe-based thing. They're not paying attention to it, they don't have a relationship with it. And so what you don't track and measure will never grow. And what you don't put energy into is never going to, you know, progress. Yeah. And so that I think is a game-changing rule that can work for anyone, no matter where they're at in their financial journey, is and I talk you through exactly how to have a money date in the book. But just having that set time every month to spend time with your finances and revisit your goals, you have to treat your financial life and your relationship to your money like a business that you're the CEO of.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

Because you're in control of this. There's no reason that you can't win. There's um actually there's a million reasons that people tell you you can't win, but really, like the ones who are going to are the ones who ignore that and do it anyways.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

It's not complicated. It's like seventh grade math, you know? And also, you might never want to do a money date, but you have to do it anyways. Like all, like we might have you might come into this whole financial game with so much fear and like uh so much shit from your childhood. Like, you know, our money relationships are set by the time we're seven years old. But again, yeah, the ones who win are gonna be the ones who do it anyways.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Don't let yourself talk yourself out of it.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

What does your money date look like? And for people that are gonna start a money date for the first time, um, what is what does it look like for you? Are you making it cute?

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Are you just getting down to it and doing it?

SPEAKER_01 32:17

Like, how are we doing this?

SPEAKER_00 32:19

So I do my money date for the last eight years on the last Sunday of every month, and I always say I will only cancel move it for a funeral or if Taylor Swift wants to hang out.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

And I never want to do it. So you still don't want to do it? No, so it's you know, there's like this whole idea of, oh my god, habits. If you do something for 21 days, you're going to, you know, magically become a new person who like loves that habit. I don't really believe in that. I think that to get where you want to go takes discipline. And that sometimes you have to push yourself to do things that you don't want to do to live the life that you really want. And so, yeah, you know, on Sundays, do I want to sit down with my fine, no, I want to go on a walk with my dog. I want to like, you know, I would rather like clean the my bathroom with a toothbrush, whatever. So depending on the vibe of that, you know, not because there's anything specific to avoid, but just because it can be hard to get yourself to first start. And so I like to share that because if you go into a money date with that feeling, do it anyways. Yeah, you can beat them.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

It's so interesting to hear that. Like I would think that, like, especially for who you are and what you do and the fact that you talk about money so often that you would like it would be like a I'm sitting down, you know what I mean? It's like going to the gym.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Like I go to the gym all the time. Like I go to the gym like three days a week, four days a week. I never really want to go.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

True.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

You know, and then when I go, once I'm there, I'm good. I know what to do, and that's the same thing. So, okay, let me walk you through what I do. So, first I look through everything, every spending category. So, like my from Venmo to PayPal to credit cards to bank accounts, everything that's going out, I want to see. I always find an issue. There's always a subscript, there's something nefarious all the time. Because here's the thing if you don't keep an eye on your bottom line, someone else will.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

They're always gonna be, you know, charging you for something or this or that. And so that's first and foremost. Um, and then I'm also doing any financial tasks. So, same thing with financial energy with it being finite. I believe in this, you know, that really applies to your money date too, where having a set time to like open my mail, uh, return any packages, like, you know, message my friend about the Venmo that she didn't, you know, reply to, like just having that set time to do it because otherwise it's just gonna fall to the wayside. You're never gonna want to do it. You have to schedule it or it won't get done. And then I review my goals. Like, say I want to go on vacation this summer. I'm gonna reverse engineer that. And I'm gonna, you know, create a some sort of strategy around how I can get there.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

And so that then I go into my next month, I know where I'm starting from. I know I check my investments, I know what progress I've made. I make sure that, you know, all my automations are set up, that everything is happening on the back burner. Because that's the other thing. I would not be a millionaire without automation.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

Yeah. And what about a are you using AI in this at all? Because I know the other day I went through, I used Claude. I no, I didn't know what I was doing. I was just playing around. And I used Claude to say, look through all of my emails to find things that were like, I guess, subscriptions that looked like subscriptions and like tell me what they were. And I think it can like unsubscribe to things automatically. But I was like, let me do this manually, but at least it like highlighted them for me. Are you using AI in any of this in any of your processes right now?

SPEAKER_00 35:26

That is such a great uh flag. Use Claude Cowork. Yeah. Of sick, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

And it can do things. I was like afraid. I saw I was like, don't delete anything, just tell me. At least to you know, flag it for me.

SPEAKER_00 35:36

100%. No, that I think that's such a smart way to use it. The other way that I really like to use AI is for um like meal planning for finances because you can tell it, like, okay, I live in Dumbo. Where should I the grocery store near me that's like convenient is really expensive. So, okay, where can I go that's cheaper? They found me a key foods that's like a 10-minute walk away. Okay, I make me a meal plan for five days that is a hundred dollars a day, that's like high protein, and for two people, and it's breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and like there's no like pork or whatever. And then they'll send me exactly the meal plan and what to get and the recipes, and I'll be like, Oh, well, I only want to cook for 20 minutes, I don't have time.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

And so they'll send really simple recipes. And I can even say, like, I like this chef. Can you add like elements like I love Inagarden? Like, can you make it like Inagarden-Ye? So I use it for that too. But yeah, the cowork is great. Um, and I think that's such a great use of AI.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

Yeah. I think that's really gonna be really important coming up too, you know, in the future where AI is seemingly taking over a lot of things, is like learning how to integrate in our finances. So I'm excited to see what it what it does for that.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

But I will say, like, no matter what support you have with your finances, you also you always have to be the CFO of your own life.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:57

So it's like, even though I have all these automations set up, I'm still always gonna have that money date because it's like I always find things that are wrong. And check in on them.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Yeah, I love that even the returning packages on that date and decide. I will not tell you how many times I get something from Amazon.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

I Amazon's tough because it's like, oh, it's $30. Like, no, no, no, do I really care? And it's like, no, girl, go to Whole Foods. Go to our staples and return it, but I'll drink get.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

And then a month later, I go in to get the return QR code. It's done. And it's like you need the time. And I'm like, okay, altogether these packages were like $90, and that's that's a that's money that I can be putting somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

You could use towards things that you really are that's what I'm saying, what you actually value.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

Yeah. So that's a good one, is like putting that in your money date. So I'm gonna I'm gonna do that. Yeah, how often you say you do yours once a month.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

I do my once a month, yeah. But you could do it every quarter. Okay. But I just think you need the consistency and like, you know, whatever you're fearing, that's the thing that's gonna bring you closest to where you need to go.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

So like people who really don't want to look at their credit card statement or the bank accounts in general. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, the more you rip that band-aid off and just give yourself exposure therapy, that's how you're gonna get ahead.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Yeah. Okay, so the book, Future Rich Person, is dropping today. And if someone buys it today and reads just even the first chapter with the biggest thing. So they're gonna binge it. Oh, they're definitely gonna binge it. Because even flipping through, I'm like, no, no, I need to go back to the front. Are you doing audiobook?

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Yeah, so good. Yeah, the audio's out. Yeah, I read the whole thing. Okay, awesome. And I ripped through it. They were like, whoa, we've never seen some go, because I was like, these words. I'm like literally Natasha Bettingfield when I read it. I'm like, oh yeah, like I love it so much. I love that book. It's such a good book. Yeah, so I like reread it. You have options. You have options. And the audiobook comes with like this fat PDF. Okay, cool. With like all the extra stuff. Because at the end of each chapter, what's really cool when you got the physical book is it has um a checklist, which is so helpful because I feel like it's like you really want to know, like, okay, am I doing? I say this in the book. I'm like, I'm your financial dominatrix. Your job is to spend less than you make, give me that money left over, and I will tell you exactly how to use it to build wealth. You do that first part, I do the second part. Let's go.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

And so there's action steps, and yeah, when you get the audiobook, you get access to all that too.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

Okay, awesome. Because yeah, so you have options. You don't have to just get the book, you can actually get the audiobook too. So nobody has any excuses. But what is the one thing that you want people to take away from the book?

SPEAKER_00 39:13

Um that you can do it, and that it's that first of all, okay, we can't take away from the fact that like it's a tough time. Like the world that we've inherited is not the one that like the American dream was built on, but that there's still so many opportunities to win and that it all starts with yourself and with uh financial literacy.

unknown 39:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

And then for this episode today, if someone only gets two minutes of the episode, what would you want them to know just even from this conversation or just in general, um, that they can use today, tomorrow?

SPEAKER_00 39:43

Uh, to start with your mindset. Um, because if you don't figure out why you're spending and like relating to money the way that you are, you're never gonna be able to make a change. To have money dates and to negotiate everything. You've got to expense max, baby.

SPEAKER_02 39:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:57

Yeah. Make sure that you're exp you're negotiating your fixed expenses and you're negotiating your salary. Be focus on the big things that are actually gonna move the needle versus these like small loser tasks that they tell women to worry about that like actually will never get you close to being a future rich person.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

Yeah. I think the money dates are the big one for me. Yeah. Just because like I do, I do the check-ins. I do like, you know, like I have my spreadsheet that like I I think I admitted this already, but like my mom started it for me. She she is someone I consider good with money. Great. She started it for me like back in the day. She actually had access to my spreadsheet like two years ago, and she was like, put in, like, you can't afford this. And I'm like, you know, but um, I still have that spreadsheet and I like look at it and go through it, but I think having that dedicated date, um and I'm I'm gonna I don't know if you make yours cute, but I'm gonna make mine cute.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Well, yeah, no, I have I have a money book that's like a um a budgeting spreadsheet that you get with the book. Oh, interesting. Okay, even better.

SPEAKER_01 40:52

So if you don't have that already, you can get one.

SPEAKER_00 40:55

But I'm gonna like you can also use AI for that too.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

You like whatever makes it easier. But I will say that whenever you're reviewing your finances, like something that I do think is important about like sort of managing your own spreadsheet a little bit is like you have to put a little bit of sweat equity in to like like if you that's why I never thought those budgeting apps really worked, because it's like something spitting out in one minute for you, all the things that you need to do different without you like understanding why and like seeing it, I think doesn't really create change.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

Yeah, you gotta get in there and like customize it and like put in that like you know, you the little nuances that you know that you do, the little habits that you know you have. Like, I think that's been a game changer for me. And then I see them, and then I'm like, is that how much money you spend on grass for the dogs every month?

SPEAKER_00 41:37

But if that's something that you value, what can you cut somewhere else to like really make it, you know, yeah? I'm the same way. I've I'm my dogs love my life. Like it's like whatever he needs, he gets. Yeah, like you know, he's the prince. So it's like, but I would I will sacrifice other purchases to make sure that he has what he needs.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

Exactly, but then you can see them all there. So I love that, I love that money date idea. That's I think my biggest um one of my biggest takeaways. Cool. From the day, in addition to making sure that I check out the full book because I'm excited from what I've seen so far. Thank you so much to our guest, Haley Sachs, aka Mrs. Dow Jones, for being here with us today. I think it's an interesting conversation that we can all learn something from at every stage of our financial journey. Of course, her book is out, and you can find her online at Mrs. Dow Jones. Thank you for tuning into Broadlines. Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of Broadlines, a production of the female quotient filmed in Los Angeles. If you liked this episode, and I know you did, make sure to rate, review, and subscribe. If you have a question, maybe a work question, or you have an idea for an episode, DM us at female quotient or leave a comment to get the conversation started. Hit that follow button while you're there. See you next week.