Broadlines
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Broadlines
Optimism or toxic positivity? | Dr. Deepika Chopra
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On this episode of Broadlines, hosts Rae Williams and Natalie Lizarraga sit down with behavioral scientist and clinical health psychologist Dr. Deepika Chopra to unpack what “real optimism” actually means — and why toxic positivity can do more harm than good.
From manifestation and self-limiting beliefs to grief, resilience, and emotional regulation, Dr. Chopra breaks down the science behind optimism, why affirmations don’t always work, and how to build genuine psychological strength instead of pretending everything is fine.
This conversation is honest, emotional, and packed with practical tools for navigating uncertainty, burnout, relationships, motherhood, and modern wellness culture.
EPISODE CREDITS...
Hosted by Rae Williams and Natalie Lizarraga
Directed by Sydney Kramer
Executive Produced by Sydney Kramer and Rachel Apirian
Produced by Lauren Ames, Rae Williams, and Natalie Lizarraga
Filmed & Edited by Davielle Waldner
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Broadlines is a production of The Female Quotient and recorded in Los Angeles, California.
When someone tells me just stay positive, I want to say off there.
SPEAKER_03The most underrated form of self-care is RSVP no. Oh.
SPEAKER_01Telling a friend if anyone can get through this, it's you.
SPEAKER_00Ugh.
SPEAKER_02One.
SPEAKER_00Crying in your car after a hard day. Ten, ten, ten, a million. Ten out of ten. Setting a boundary with someone.
SPEAKER_02Eight. Eight. It's good for the most part. It could be 10 if we're using it the right way, but I think boundaries have become an excuse for doing things you don't want to do or for not wanting to put in the hard work in relationships.
SPEAKER_01Welcome to Broadlines, a weekly video podcast by the Female Quotient. Where real headlines meet real conversation. I'm Natalie Lizaraga, a journalist and news anchor.
SPEAKER_03And I'm Marie Williams, an entertainment lifestyle and culture journalist. Our guest today, Dr. Deepika Chopra, is not your average therapist. She's a behavioral scientist, holds a doctorate in clinical health psychology. She's a visual imagery expert and the founder of Things Are Looking Up. She spent over a decade studying what optimism actually is, like not the bumper sticker version, but the science-backed, evidence-based, genuinely life-extending version. She was a recurring guest on the Today Show. And this year she released her debut book, The Power of Real Optimism. And we're gonna get into all things optimism. Welcome, Dr. Chopra. Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for joining us on Broadlines. You're gonna upgrade our spirituality today.
SPEAKER_03I'm genuinely interested because I think, like a lot of millennials, I bought into manifestation and like a, you know, a spiritual practice. And I'm very curious to see what of it is actually a science base and what it is like woo-woo from TikTok and what is actually gonna like help me upgrade my life.
SPEAKER_02You will be pleasantly surprised because I think it's not necessarily dispelling something in its entirety, but more like helping to give you the education and tools to use them in the right way.
SPEAKER_03Which is exactly what we need. So diving right in, you know, you've said that optimism is wildly misunderstood and that what most people think is optimism, like sometimes actually isn't. It's a watered-down and maybe even harmful version. So, right off the bat, what is real optimism and what isn't?
SPEAKER_02I literally used to think that being optimistic or someone that was an optimist had their heads in the clouds and that they were completely devoid of reality. And one of my favorite stereotypes about an optimist that I still hear, like today, and it's something I thought a long time ago, I don't think so anymore, because I now know what real optimism is, but is I'm not an optimist, I'm a realist. And like as if they are, you know, mutually exclusive and cannot exist together. Um, and so visually, I think most people think of an optimist as someone that's like skipping through poppy fields and like humming and just experiencing bliss 24-7, a stress-free, worry-free life. They're always able to come up with a silver lining and they're looking at the world through rose-colored glasses. Like this is what we've sort of been sold in reality, and what the science says is actually that a real optimist is someone who is really grounded in reality and someone who is mindfully and keenly aware of the roadblocks and the setbacks and the less than ideal situations that all of us encounter because, as humans, none of us are immune to struggle. But the caveat is that a real optimist sees these setbacks as something that is temporary and something that they have the ability to overcome, even if they don't know how or when, but just that they will. And it's really more based on our personal historical resiliency. So every one of your both of your hardest days that you've ever had, you're here and you've overcome them. And through that sort of perseverance and overcoming that setback, that's where we cultivate the optimism from. And there's this other piece of it that I think is really beautiful. And it's that optimism's actually, so it's really rooted in resiliency, but it's also rooted in curiosity. And so it's this idea of, you know, whatever it is that you're experiencing right now, it's gonna change. So we accept that. We know that that's one of the hallmarks of an optimist is knowing that it's temporary, but also having this curiosity of like, I wonder how this will change. Not necessarily being grounded in the certainty that it's gonna be better. That's great if you can get there, but we don't even need that. That's not what optimism needs. Just that like small seed of curiosity of I wonder how this will change. That's optimism.
SPEAKER_03So, where does then the real optimism kind of end and uh toxic positivity begin? I think we've talked, we hear toxic positivity a lot too, but I don't know that I've ever really had it defined or or you know, figured out where it starts.
SPEAKER_02Right. Toxic positivity is a trap that I think so many of us fall into in like almost a more automatic way. When we are using statements that fall into the trap of toxic positivity, whether it's with ourselves or with someone else that's sitting across from us that we care for. I think for the most part, we're coming at this with a good intention. And that doesn't, that doesn't always mean if you have the good intention that it is necessarily um having benefit. I think that when we use toxic positivity type of statements, you know, for at the at best, maybe it's just not helpful, but at worst it can be very detrimental. And so I say this because we are social creatures, we have a lot of empathy as humans, and it is sort of natural for us to sit across from someone and see them in pain and want to fix it and want to very quickly bandage it up and just say everything's gonna be okay. And we don't love seeing other people in pain. And I get that. And then the second sort of reason, again, I think with good intention that we might fall into the toxic positivity trap is ourselves, we don't like to feel discomfort. And when we're sitting across from someone that is experiencing something, again, because we are social creatures and we're empathic, our brain starts to come up with ideas and memories and possibilities of being in the same situation. And that is very uncomfortable for many of us. We don't have the practice to sit with discomfort like we should. And so we try to squash it very quickly with everything happens for a reason. We do this with our kids a lot. Um, you know, it could always be worse. And that, those type of statements are basically signaling to the person or to ourselves that how we are feeling is not only not valid, but it's not welcome.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And we should now, this person across from us that is feeling sadness or rage or fear, maybe now feels embarrassed also on top of it, or there's no space for this, there's no place for it. And how could I be so selfish to be sitting here and even having this thought because this person just told me out of good intention, but that's just not what it feels like, that this could be so much worse. And so it causes the person to feel dismissed and to shut down. And if that happens enough times, that person or ourselves is going to sort of make that as part of their identity. And anytime a feeling comes up that doesn't feel good or is deemed negative, we tend to shut down and just say there's no place for this and how shameful I am to even think it. And I think why this is so dangerous and detrimental is because we were made as humans to experience the full range of human emotion. And so all these emotions, of course, exist on a continuum. But feelings like rage and grief and worry and stress and envy and jealousy or all of these feelings, they're actually normal feelings. And we feel them as humans. It's just to what degree? And we what we know about the research is that if you squash an emotion or you try to underneath a rug, you're not processing it. And that emotion actually, like you had mentioned before, you know, you're actually taking away someone's ability for psychological resilience and you're taking away the ability to cultivate optimism.
SPEAKER_03I used to get the, oh, it could be worse a lot. And one of the things I used to say to people is like, if you're drowning in 16 feet of water and I'm drowning in 60 feet of water, we're both still drowning. Yeah. And so I still have the feeling, even though it could be a worse situation. So I think that's like very important for us to remember.
SPEAKER_01For the all the women out there, for sisters, friends, best friends, moms, aunts, what are the three phrases we should not be saying when someone is going through something?
SPEAKER_02I wouldn't say, hey, everything happens for a reason, or it could be worse, or not even, I wouldn't even say don't worry or don't cry. I would say, wow, this seems really hard right now. And I understand that this means a lot to you and it makes sense why you would be feeling this so intensely right now. And I'm here for you. And I might even add, you've done hard things before, but I I am here and it's okay. And I'm I'm I'm hearing that this is a really difficult time for you right now. And of course, I'm not the biggest fan of good vibes only. Um, I think I don't need a lot of people that just say that. I think that's more of like the bumper sticker or the pillows. It started to get to a point where it was sort of infiltrating our society as like, oh, only good vibes are welcome here. Um, and I think people, whether that is how it was intended or not, and it was more just like, you know, only your good blessings, which I think is fine. I think people were starting to interpret that like on a mass level as just be happy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Just be happy. I think too, when people use it, it's like, don't bring your shit to me. Yes. And you're like, well, where am I supposed to go? Right. If you're only into because it's it's harder for them. It's not about you, it's about them not wanting to add anything else.
SPEAKER_02Upwards of 80% of the time, people that are coming to you with a problem, a setback, their issues, anything. Um, you know, they're not necessarily not coming to you for a solution. They're coming to you to be heard.
SPEAKER_03Kind of moving into manifestation a bit, because the this is kind of my jam. So I really interested to hear. Let's get to it. You coined the term evidence-based manifestation. And I think manifestation has become a really loaded word. A lot of people swear by it. Some people think it's just like magical thinking. Of course, like people think it's delusional. And like, you know, then the whole like Dululu movement came about, which I definitely subscribe to. But what is the actual science on it? Like, what's the deal?
SPEAKER_02I think the idea of it really does work, but I think a lot of people are using it incorrectly. And I think that for the most part, what I've seen, and I think people have caught up now, but over the last few years, I'm just I'm seeing a lot of this notion of, you know, I asked the universe for it. And then I like look down and I wait for it to just fall into my lap. And I love that for people, if that's how it works for you. I would love to see that repeated over and over if that's really truly how it works for you. But that is from a, you know, neuroscience point of view, not how this works. I think it's so important to know what you want. And I think that that part of manifestation really gets it, like focus on what you want and um visualize it. So for me, when I was doing my dissertation on this idea of positive future-directed thinking, I really looked at sensory-based visual imagery and visualization as a science-based technique to increase optimism. And so this really falls into all of this, but there is a science behind how to do it. And I think that's the part that not a lot of people know about. And I think the missing part for me that I've come up with that is like the true secret, I think, is you don't always get what you want, but you most always get what you expect. And so there is a gap between how much you want something and how much you actually expect it to be a possibility and happen for you. And our brains have a limited attentional capacity. We cannot, the brain cannot tend to everything. And that's for good reason. We don't want it to. And so your prefrontal cortex will turn on and start coming up with solutions and ideas and um small ways, practical ways to get a goal, you know, um really materialized and to manifest something if it believes there's a strong possibility for it. So if someone really wants to win the lottery, for example, they could want that if I asked, hey, rate from one to 10, 10 being the most, how much would you want to win the lottery? And some 10, 10. I would I would love to win the lottery. Okay. Did you buy a lotto ticket this morning?
SPEAKER_03No.
SPEAKER_02Did you buy one yesterday?
SPEAKER_03No.
SPEAKER_02And that's because that makes a lot of sense to me. By the way, the only way to win the lottery is to buy a lotto ticket. Right. Or for is to play, or maybe someone buys one for you, whatever it is. But to have a lot of you need a lottery ticket. And so it makes sense because your brain tells you this is very unlikely. This is not a possibility. I'm not going to put forth the energy and the ideas to you to wake up in the morning and buy a lotto ticket. Because there's other things that I think are more possible that I am going to put the energy and attention towards. And so you can want something until the cows come home. But if you don't think it's a real possibility and that rating, it doesn't match from one to 10 of how much you expect something to happen and you don't close that gap, it's very unlikely that you have your brain on your side to help you make that a reality.
SPEAKER_03But is there a way to close that gap? Is there like a practice that you can get into or something like that to, you know, kind of yeah, tell me more.
SPEAKER_02That is the real work. And again, it is not the I really want to close the gap. And then it falls into your lap. It's real work. It's yeah, darn. Imagine if I like reached in my purse and had like a little like pill box and I was like, here, this will close again. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. Just say this three times and click your heels. I wish. Um, actually, I don't wish. To be honest, like, let's get into that. I don't wish that. Because again, if that were how things worked, you miss the whole process. And not to sound cliche, but you miss that cultivating of resiliency and optimism. And you miss that like neural pathway. That is the point. That is the purpose. And so a lot of there is a lot of different ways that we can work on to close the gap. But one of the best ways, and now we're kind of talking about we're like veering into the idea of self-limiting beliefs. And so, you know, there's an example, there's quite a few examples in the book of clients that I've worked with, um, or even stuff, you know, there's part, it's part memoir too, but how this actually works in real time. And so one of and why I study sensory-based visual imagery so much is it is one of the most powerful tools that we have to actually dismantle and change self-limiting beliefs and to like really change that possibility. So when your brain sees something visually and you experience it with your senses, we have these things called mirror neurons. And your brain doesn't know the difference between reality, like you're actually doing it and you're imagining it. This comes a lot from sports psychology. It's like when you watch Dancing with the Stars, your brain is actually firing the same neurons that it would fire if you were dancing. These mirror neurons are so powerful and there's it's such an interesting concept. But it's a lot of this, again, is rooted in sports psychology. And a lot of elite athletes have been using this for a long time. There's only so much your body can do, physical rehearsal. And we turn to mental rehearsal. And so when your mind, when your brain sees something and you visualize it, it actually starts to think, wait, I've seen this before. It's a possibility. So if cognitively you're just like, I really want to be in this amazing relationship. But I ask someone that's sitting across from me, well, how, how much do you actually from one to 10 expect that that can happen for you? And they're like, Well, I want it 10 out of 10, but you know, things haven't been going so well. I've had these, you know, not great experiences. I have all these self-limiting beliefs. And I mean, it doesn't, they don't say that right away, but they're like two out of 10. And so that gap is just too big. And so if then we start to figure out what are their beliefs, and if they're like, I'm not deserving to be in a great relationship, or I don't feel like I'm lovable, or I don't like myself. Like these are real beliefs that every you would, you would, you wouldn't think, but every day, even high functioning people are walking around with. And they're based on years of evidence collecting in their life to make that belief cement. A lot of people will say, Well, why don't you just write down, I'm a lovable person and say it three times in front of the mirror and it's called an affirmation.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And again, I believe in affirmations, but only when they're used correctly. And it's why I have something I call the seven-tenths rule. You rate from one to ten, ten being the most believable. How much do you believe this affirmation? So if someone told you to say, I'm lovable, and they are like, maybe three, four. That is not an affirmation that's going to be useful to you. And quite honestly, the research shows it's probably going to be pretty detrimental because your brain is a powerful organ. You look in front of the mirror and you say that. And it starts almost like visually, the way I see it is like a computer screen that starts pulling up all the files to that you have collected over the last 30 plus years to say, wait, this is why I'm not a lovable person. And don't try to trick me. And then you just feel shame about it and it sets you back. And so a better thing to do would be to come up with an affirmation that is along the same lines, but that is believable. So, what is one thing you do like about yourself? Just one thing. And someone comes up with, ah, I'm I'm a loyal friend. Okay, I believe that nine out of 10, eight out of 10. That is the affirmation that I want that person to use. And the interesting thing about the brain is if that is what you focus on and it's believable, your brain will seek out other evidence in your day-to-day life to make whatever it is that it thinks is true more true. So then you will start collecting other evidence. And maybe in a few weeks you have three or four other statements that you believe. And maybe after a little while, you can't say, I'm a lovable person and I deserve to be in a relationship, but you can't say the inverse of it either. And you're working on sort of slowly softening or chipping away. And then at some point, you maybe can say, Yeah, I deserve love.
SPEAKER_03And then you have a collection of other things that you also use that point to the I'm a lovable person. Because if you're a loyal friend and you, you know, like Yes, you tell a great story and you know, always come to you for people come to those things. Yeah, then it always smart.
SPEAKER_02I I really am good at my job. I'm a great coach for my child's team, whatever they are, you come up with all of these other collections of real believable thoughts, and then you start coming up with even more. And that is what you're sort of the radio station you're tuned into. You start collecting even more. What would be an affirmation that you guys use currently or would use now knowing and that you believe it like at least seven out of 10?
SPEAKER_01This wasn't something that I thought before having a child, but that I'm a capable mom.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it's not too scary. Like, I I'm capable. You've, like you said, you've gotten through the hardest of things, and you're like, I never thought I'd survive month one through three. Right. And you're like, oh, now she's a toddler. It's easier. And you're like, wait, it's because of me.
SPEAKER_02Right. And my husband.
SPEAKER_01Like, we're capable parents.
SPEAKER_02I have a quiz in the book. Well, I'm a product of like the 90s and I love a good quiz, like a 17 mag same Cosmo YM quiz. And that's why I put a quiz in the book that is very much like scroll are you as it's an that's what it is. One of the things I think is so interesting that comes out of it is a lot of people that think they are really optimistic end up scoring lower than they thought. And a lot of people that think that they are nowhere near being an optimist actually score a lot higher because we've all just been defining it incorrectly. But um what I think is so interesting about it is a lot of times what we do is when a good thing happens or there's a win, we tend to look outside of ourselves and say, it just got easier, or um, I was at the right place at the right time, or I have a great team. Yeah. And then when something bad happens or a setback, we're like, we make it really personal. And we say, this was my fault, and I didn't show up in the right way, or I didn't do X, Y, and Z. And so it's interesting because an optimist is someone that is more, well, now I'm giving the whole quiz away for anyone listening, but an optimum, a real optimist is someone who's able to accept their part in when things go well and take sort of personalize it. And at the same time, when things go south or the wrong way, they don't automatically just personalize it and make it pervasive. They sort of start to look at what are some other circumstances, or if it was something in their part, like where's the agency? But what would be your affirmation?
SPEAKER_03I luckily have been I shifted from the kind of toxic side of it. So one of the things that I used to do, um, and this was surrounding money, is say that like I have abundance and abundance is coming to me. But now I'm understanding that the reason that that didn't sit well is because then I had evidence of the contrary. Well, like I can't afford. This. I want to go on this trip. I can't, like, you know, like my friend has this really cute purse that I can't get because I have to save to put a deposit on my new apartment. Um, and I started shifting to things that I was good at. So I would make like a list of like things that like I was actually good at instead. I love when it came to money. So I started saying, like, I'm actually good at doing money diets, right? Savings diets or you know, like spending diets is what I would call them. Yeah. Cause like I like child of the 90s again. I love like a good challenge. Yep. And so if you put something in challenge form for me, like a spending diet, and three days, like I'm good at doing spending diets. Yeah. I'm good at, you know, putting aside this. And so I started doing those instead and I found that worked better. But it's also interesting that you say, um, you know, the blame when things go the other way. Because, you know, once I felt like I had manifested a lot of the things that I'd wanted and they come to me, the relationship and all of that. And my life got super crazy and have time to sit and manifest those things anymore. I started to panic that all of the things were gonna go away because I was no longer fulfilling the spiritual practice. Um, and so I wonder if that's part of Did they go away? No, I still have still got my manual guys. I still have the things. How interesting is that? It was a panic. Like it was a panic first realizing do we kind of tip into the toxicity and what happens to your brain when you're then like, okay, well, I haven't sat there and said my 15 affirmations and written down my goals per year.
SPEAKER_02Or I think this even comes up a lot, which breaks my heart because so I was uh I worked as a psycho oncologist for many years. So I worked with cancer patients and their families. And or even like something like at the start of the pandemic, I had so many clients calling me right at the start, you know, when it was like lockdown and nobody knew anything. And they were just like, I am riddled with worry, or someone that has a cancer diagnosis, um, you know, just coming to sit across from me. And it was, it's heartbreaking to be like, I've I've been practicing, you know, all these different modalities and seeing different practitioners, and they're basically like, you have worried so much about your kids and you have so much anxiety, like your those thoughts have caused your cancer. And like if I even I have this sitting across for me, if I like actually start, I'm worried right now because this is scary for me, obviously. But if I like am too scared about it, then it's like I'm gonna create it more.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And it's that same idea of like, if you let a worry thought in, then like you, you know, your thoughts become a reality. And if you let it in, I mean, that to me is the part where if not practiced correctly, manifestation and just like people's interpretation of it can be really dangerous and detrimental. And I've seen it firsthand in my practice before, especially when I was working with oncology patients and their families. And I think something that I've really accepted, you know, is while I was writing this book, you know, like a couple months into the manuscript, myself, like while I'm writing this book on optimism, I went through the darkest and hardest and most helpless time in my life. My small child, who was two and a half at the time, was given a very, very rare medical diagnosis, two in a million, and just chalked bad luck. And our whole lives changed and literally leveled me in every possible way. And I felt like I had no access to hope at all. Um, but coming out of that, and and I'm still very much living in the uncertainty of we have no idea what the future holds because there's just no data. But coming out of that and having to use these tools in real time while I'm writing this book, while I'm literally in the darkest, worst time of my life and felt no access to it, but literally had to force myself through. And it kept me staying engaged and it kept me showing up. And also, there's a part of it where you just have to. But I've come out of it now with number one, really bad things sometimes happen to really good people. And that was something I really had to like, I really had to look at straight in the eye because I did not understand that. I could say the words and I would sit across from other people that had diagnoses in my past and have to sort of grapple with that and also come to that. But I fully in my gut now understand and know that. And then I came out of it and I understand what type of optimism was cultivated there. I so strongly believe, and I say it in front of the mirror every single day, I can do hard things because I really truly, that is my affirmation now. And it it I heard the words before. I've read stories about that, I've read books called that, I've listened to all kinds of things. And the words, I get them, but they didn't fully like sit with me and become part of me in a way that I believe 10 out of 10. Yeah. Like my family can do hard things.
SPEAKER_01When it comes to men and women, there's seems to be a difference in like a lot of stuff, a lot of optimism is kind of more geared towards women. Do you think that men or women are more likely to show traits of toxic positivity and why? Which one shows it more?
SPEAKER_02Between men and women, it's we we are not really, I'm not really looking at who shows traits of toxic positivity more. Um, I more look at it like a man and a woman, you know, I think show traits of toxic toxic positivity very differently. And so, you know, I think a woman, um, you know, we're programmed in our society to be the caretakers, to smooth things over, to um be agreeable. And I think men are also programmed in our society to have their shit together and to provide and to keep moving forward. And so it looks more like avoidance for men, I would say. And we're speaking generalizations here, of course, but it looks more like avoidance and like just keep going, you know, just uh I don't have time for that right now. Like, put put a lid on it. And for women, it's much more like how can I make this a more comfortable experience for everybody else? And don't worry. I want to make sure I am alleviating the worry from you and for myself. And so it's not about who falls into the trap more. I just think what we really should be looking at is how are they displayed differently and how does it sort of, you know, how does it manifest in both men and women?
SPEAKER_01I normally don't bring in like personal things, but I recently had one of my friend's husbands pass away like three weeks ago. I'm so sorry. He was 39 and he has a five and a six-year-old. So I'm gonna cry again. And in those situations, there's no optimism. Right. It just seems too dire. Right. I just couldn't understand where I'm supposed to see brightness in all of this. You're not. But I want to be there for her.
SPEAKER_02Like, how does that work? I think probably what like is the most helpful right now and the most valuable is to just let her come undone with you. Like allow it. If she's got kids, she's probably feeling a lot of pressure to have that brightness and to be put together for her children. And she probably needs so many more avenues than you can imagine where someone is not pressuring her to find the bright side right now and just to literally be undone and broken.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's I think that's huge. Cause you know, when everyone's there and surrounding someone who's gonna go through something, everyone wants to have those, yeah, those short, you know, it'll be it'll be better and you'll get through this.
SPEAKER_02But like sometimes time will heal. I mean, like that is another one where I mean, does it? Yes, in some ways, I think grief a lot of times is to me, I almost look at it like a bag of heavy rocks. And you always are carrying it. You're carrying this backpack of heavy rocks. And some days you are carrying it and you carry it so much that you don't feel the heaviness and the weight of it as much. And other days, and these are things like landmines, even years away, you something can happen, a memory, a flash. You see something, you listen to a song, whatever it is, someone says something, you just have your own thought. And all of a sudden you're so weighed down by the bag of rocks that you can't even stand. Yeah. And so I think things like time will heal again is a phrase that I just would not say. I wouldn't want to hear that.
SPEAKER_01Coming undone and permission to do that. Yes, is so very crucial. And I feel like for women, for mothers especially, coming undone just sometimes doesn't seem like an option.
SPEAKER_02You can't afford to do that right now. No, you can't. And so I think in that realm too is like, where can she? You know, and there's gonna be a lot of places, and hopefully, you know, there is also a healthy amount of being undone in front of your children. And this is a circumstance where they're all in, of course. But she's got really little children and she still has to show up and be a mom, obviously. And that's really hard. And so, where are the other avenues or places that she can just be undone? Because we need that process.
SPEAKER_01What struck me was that the cover of your book says open even when life gets hard, because life is going to get hard, and how you cope with it is how you learn to in the future to do that. So if you don't have, I love, I love hate this word, but the bandwidth to be amongst people and still it you need a place to come undone and you need the time. How do you want to explain that? Like, hey, maybe I don't want to have this conversation right now, but I do want to grief, but on my own, um, or like just give me space.
SPEAKER_02The first part is how do you tell people in your life? How do you set these boundaries? Um, and then the second part is like, where are some of these places or where can you actually be undone if you feel like there is not a lot of avenues for it? So the first part I would say is the people that really matter in that moment, you can have a lot of people in your life, and when you go through something, you still can care about them and love them, but they don't have a place in that season. But the people that really do have a place in that season, they have a place in that season because you can have a conversation like that. You can say a statement like that, and you don't have this fear that they're either going to be offended. And if they do, then they're not the person in that season. Do you know what I'm saying? It doesn't mean you are removing them forever. But I truly believe in this idea of seasons. And then the second part is, you know, it just keeps coming up for me. I think we all have to find those little places, and they're almost like in my mind, like alleys. This is figuratively, not really. Yes, exactly. Know your surroundings, you know, whatever those are, those pockets, and we find them, and you will find them when you are in need. For me, it was my car.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I was just gonna say that.
SPEAKER_02It was enclosed. 10 out of 10. I felt safe. My tool that I've always used since I was a little kid, and I was a very deeply feeling kid, if you couldn't already have guessed, since I was a kid until now, one of my most used and potent mental health tools is music. It always has been. And I started to realize this the uh you know more recently, but I I don't just use music to boost my mood, although sometimes I do that. I use music to help me keep feeling and expanding the feeling that I'm in. And I am very much known. Like if my if I'm driving home from an errand, there have been many times where my husband will drive in because he's coming in from something, and he's like, he'll look and he'll just be like, Oh, she's still in her car. And sometimes it's visible of what I'm doing, and sometimes it's not. But he knows that is like I am listening to music and I am bawling my eyes out, or I'm just listening to music and I'm raging out. Like I am doing something where I am not ready to turn my music off and go inside. And oftentimes for me, it is my car. When a lot of this was happening a couple of years ago for me, and I was at my lowest point, um, I was doing a lot of hiding underneath my office desk. I don't know why. It was like something that just was instinctive for me. Like it was almost like I was preparing for an earthquake. But I found myself literally hiding underneath my office desk. But shower is another one. I think we like to retreat to places where we feel we feel safe, comfortable. And it's oftentimes in a mundane, like routine place where we don't have to do much safety again or thinking about our surrounding. And we just have the ability to feel. And so, and for some people, it's another person. It's being embraced by someone else, it's their mom, it's whatever, it's being held. The last two places I could ride, my car and the shower.
SPEAKER_03See, and as we talk about all of this, do you see a difference, especially in your work on how different generations approach this? Because I, you know, I think we are millennials and come from, you know, this the school of the pillows and the home goods. Yeah. I think our parents come from the school of just move on, right? You need to get through it. And Gen Z don't come for me, but I think they are a little bit more like feel it out, maybe to the point where it might be too much. I don't know. But how do you how do you perceive it when you're I do?
SPEAKER_02And you know, our environment has a deep impact on our nervous system. And generationally, right now, I think you hit it spot on. I think this generation coming up right now, they're very emotionally aware and they're able to use emotional language and to label emotions, which by the way is excellent. There's a ton of research that even if you can just label how you're feeling, yeah, it removes some of the threat response and takes you out of that amygdala, even if you haven't been able to change the feeling. But it actually like it takes the edge off of whatever that feeling is. So there is a lot of benefit in that. But I will say I think this generation, that's a positive. But that labeling emotions is very different than having resiliency tools. And I also think we just are in the type of society and world that we live in right now that is not really set up for resiliency tools. We are highly distractable. We have a 24-7 news cycle. We're always online. Although I will say this generation coming up, they're more interested in what that impact is. And I think they're thinking about it more and they're more intentional. But we, I also feel like we are one of the most connected in one of the most connected times in our society right now. We are one of the most informed times. We're deeply informed, but we also have this flip where we don't, we're not equipped with the right tools to take action and to hold all the information and stimulation. And, you know, it's great. I'm always such a believer, and people think it's counterintuitive when they think about what I do, but I don't believe in ignorance as bliss. I don't believe in turning off the news and not knowing what's going on. I completely understand what an impact it has on our psyche and our brains and our nervous system. We're not meant to be stimulated this much and to know this much and to be exposed this much of everybody's deepest setback and heartache all over the world globally and all at once. So I do believe in the idea of boundary setting. But I think that is why I'm so passionate about real optimism and these tools, because I think being numb to it or having to be so overwhelmed by the type of world we live in and we have to look away is the exact opposite of where we need to be. We need to actually just start equipping ourselves with more psychological skills to hold things in a new way.
SPEAKER_03So we're gonna do a little fill in the blank. So just reading you the sentence and you tell us what you think. Okay. So we'll start with the biggest misconception people have about optimism is that it's a personality trait and that it has to feel good all the time.
SPEAKER_01When someone tells me just stay positive, I want to say off. Fair.
SPEAKER_03The most underrated form of self-care is RSVP no. Oh, uh, I love that. The one thing I want people to feel after reading my book is empowered and a sense of agency.
SPEAKER_01Okay, rate these one through ten, ten being the best and one being a flunk.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01A $90 candle marketed as self-care.
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna say three because there's like, you know, some aspect of the placebo of it and bringing you joy. If it brings you joy, go for it. But 90, gosh, what a ripoff.
SPEAKER_03A $3,000 weekend wellness retreat.
SPEAKER_02Is it in Europe?
SPEAKER_03Maybe.
SPEAKER_02Because, you know, I think that just a trip to Italy is is wellness for me. So I'm gonna say four.
SPEAKER_01Telling a friend if anyone can get through this, it's you.
SPEAKER_02Uh one.
SPEAKER_03Setting a boundary with someone.
SPEAKER_02Eight. Eight. It's good for the most part. It could be ten if we're using it the right way, but I think boundaries have become an excuse a lot of times for doing things you don't want to do or for not wanting to put in the hard work in relationships.
SPEAKER_00Crying in your car after a hard day. 10, 10, 10, a million, a million?
SPEAKER_0310 out of 10. Quitting a job without another one lined up because it was destroying your mental health.
SPEAKER_01Eight. Telling yourself everything happens for a reason to get through something hard.
SPEAKER_02One.
SPEAKER_01A vision board.
SPEAKER_02Seven.
SPEAKER_03Okay, good. Because that's my jam too.
SPEAKER_02I want to know what you're doing after that and what you're doing with it, but just it in itself, seven.
SPEAKER_01Blocking someone for your own piece. Ten. Ten. Journaling as therapy.
SPEAKER_02Ten.
SPEAKER_01Telling your friend you manifested that when something good happens to them.
SPEAKER_02Two.
unknownTwo.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because I would rather highlight like the work they did.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so a wellness influencers course on healing your inner child. Price tag $997.
SPEAKER_02Gosh, you're trying to get me in trouble here. I will say, I mean, it obviously it depends if you have the money. I think healing your inner child is some great work. Uh, I think you can get it for a lot less than that. So I will just say four because I'm being a little nice.
SPEAKER_01Taking a mental health day.
SPEAKER_03I'll say eight, but I also think this one becomes misused often. Someone diagnosing a medical condition via TikTok or AI.
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna give that a six because I think you should be cautious. But I also think that there are some AI platforms that even my most trusted friend doctors use. And they can be pretty good if you are if you are prompting it in the right way and you have real um data to plug in. I think TikTok, I'm gonna say less. Um, but I think if you have a good AI and you get it corroborated or come in, I've heard of so many stories of people coming into their doctor's office being like, I plugged all this in. It is telling me or asking me, like, should we look into this? And it's actually been helpful.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Saying I'm choosing joy today when life is genuinely hard.
SPEAKER_03I'm gonna give it a five. I think for me, the biggest part of this conversation that I'm definitely gonna take home is actually realizing what optimism is that I have been already practicing versus what I think it's supposed to be and therefore try to do. So knowing that, you know, me realizing that a situation is shitty sometimes and living in that and realizing that I've survived things before and looking for evidence is actually a form of optimism as opposed to just being like things are great.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you for coming in and talking to us. It really, really got the the wheels spinning in my head, especially being a mom and figuring out how I'm supposed to be that safe space that you said, like a safe space for my daughter. And that makes your mind work a little better. So I think that like knowing that there are small ways that we maybe don't think about crying in your car, crying in the shower, releasing things that can kind of reset our nervous system, will give us a more clear head and a more positive take on what is going to happen. And it doesn't always have to be rainbows and butterflies, but it could just be like this is for now and it's not forever.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. And I love that with the piece on bringing up your daughter, because I think that those small moments, obviously, like we're not trying to show our kids everything. We we have to have some form of, you know, uh boundary. But I think showing our kids like I'm regulating my system right now is an important tool and skill for them to learn. And they learn through modeling. And so if mommy's in the car crying to music for a little bit, and then she comes out and she's still okay, but she needed that moment. I think that is something like that, they is only valuable for them to be able to learn that they're gonna need to take moments to also regulate. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Taking the moments and like you said, our earlier conversation, coming undone is perfectly okay. Yes.
SPEAKER_03And I hope that we'll look at optimism and toxic positivity and kind of all of the ways that we manifest and just really take a deep dive into our practice. Of course, we can also look into this book, The Power of Real Optimism. So thank you again for being here with us. And we'll see you next time on Broadlines. Thanks. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Broadlines, a production of the female quotient filmed in Los Angeles. If you like this episode, and I know you did, make sure to rate, review, and subscribe. If you have a question, maybe a work question, or you have an idea for an episode, DM us at female quotient or leave a comment to get the conversation started. Hit that follow button while you're there. See you next week.