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Broadlines
Working harder will not get you promoted | Tiger Sisters
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Young women are among the most age-discriminated group in the workforce, and most of them don't even realize it's happening. On this week's episode of Broadlines, hosts Rae Williams and Natalie Lizarraga sit down with Jean and Sherry Lou, the sisters behind Spotify's number one business podcast Tiger Sisters, former Goldman Sachs, LinkedIn and Snap executives with MBAs from Harvard and Stanford.
From why being the only woman in the room means you end up doing the admin work that goes nowhere, to the "avocado ceiling" research that explains why women have a narrower window to prove themselves than men ever will, to what HR actually is and why you should never confess anything to them, this episode is packed with advice that could change how you move through your career starting today. Stay for the part where they break down the exact difference between a red flag manager and a green flag one, because the signs are more specific than you think.
You belong in that room. This episode will make sure no one can take that from you.
Follow Tiger Sisters: @TigerSistersPod
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Hosted by Rae Williams and Natalie Lizarraga
Directed by Sydney Kramer
Executive Produced by Sydney Kramer and Rachel Apirian
Produced by Rae Williams and Natalie Lizarraga
Filmed & Edited by Davielle Waldner
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Broadlines is a production of The Female Quotient and recorded in Los Angeles, California.
This is Broadlines Featuring Tiger Sisters.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to Broadlines, a weekly video podcast by the Female Quotient, where real headlines meet real conversations. I'm Ray Williams and I'm Natalie Lizraga. So our guests today are the women behind one of Spotify's number one business podcasts. Today we are talking to the Tiger Sisters. Let's welcome Jean and Cherie Lu to our show today. Together, they have MBAs from Harvard and Stanford, former Goldman Sachs, LinkedIn, and Snap executives have 50 plus AI patents between them. How many do you have, Ray? I have 50 less than them. Oh, yeah. I think between us, yeah, between us, the same number, I think. Yeah. And they're here to answer all of your questions, all of our questions that we have about being a young woman in the workplace. So welcome to Broadline, ladies.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. We're so excited to be here.
SPEAKER_00Yay. So we have a newsletter that goes out, and there's a lot of facts that are on there. And this is kind of what got this conversation started. So the FQ published data that shows that women under 30 are the most ageist impacted in the workforce when it comes to ageism. Was that surprising to you? Why or why not?
SPEAKER_01Not surprising at all. And the numbers do not lie. I think the uh study that you did is exactly true. And I can speak to a little bit of my own experience uh with this. So my first job out of school, I was an investor at Goldman Sachs. I worked on the investment team. And one thing that we had to do is every week we had an investment committee where we would do all this insane number, insane amount of research. We would put together all these uh memos where we would do all this research on um things we wanted to invest in, and we would present it to the MDs. And on my uh analyst team, I was the only woman. And looking back on it, so this is something I only realized maybe like 10 to 15 years after. Every single week, the only person who was asked to compile the memos was me because I was the only woman. And that's something I never even clocked until literally this year when we did when we did an episode about this topic on Tiger Sisters. And you know, some people might be watching this and be like, oh, well, that's not a big deal. You had to, you know, you had to print some things out, you have to collate some things. But tasks like that, there's no upside. You can never do an excellent job of printing and collating, right? You can only ever fuck up. And so when you're the person, when you're the only person on the entire investment team, that takes away time from me working on my investments. I think you're supposed to be doing your actual job. And so this is something I think a lot of people experience and they don't even realize until much later. So I think those numbers are actually probably under-reported because people like us, we don't realize it for a long time.
SPEAKER_03So I know you said it, Goldman, you weren't necessarily mistaken for the assistant, but you were kind of giving a system. I was doing assistant work.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Has that happened to you? That hasn't happened to me personally, but talking to so many of my girlfriends, especially right out of college, like the reason why I'm not surprised about reverse ageism and most of the people like feeling the ageism is not 60 or 60 plus, but is, you know, 20 year olds, 30 year olds? Um, I'm not surprised. Like all my girlfriends have a personal story talking about some sort of um reverse ageism happening in the workforce, especially if you're working in a very male-dominated environment, and especially if you're working in a place where it's more traditional.
SPEAKER_03What would you guys recommend that women do when they're either getting mistaken for the assistant or they're having their work credited, you know, somewhere else by someone more senior, especially when they're that young?
SPEAKER_02I think it's especially hard when it's your first or second job um out of school and you're like, how do I even professional and what do I do in this experience?
SPEAKER_00No, that's true. I don't know how to professional.
SPEAKER_02We're still professional. Like we're still learning how to professional. I'm serious though, because like who do you look up to and who can you trust to give you the advice? I think it's especially hard, Ray, when it's your manager or your boss, someone who's directly in charge of your career progression, who's taking credit for your work. I think that is probably the toughest situation to be in. If you have a toxic boss who's speaking over you, cutting you off, taking credit. I think that's really hard. Something you can do is you gotta protect yourself because like you are the only person who cares the most about your career. Yeah. And like you want to think that your boss is helping you out. But if you are in a situation like that, like you really have to protect yourself. And I think it's documenting so much of your successes and your projects and where you are succeeding in the workplace, the accolades your allies and your teammates have given you. Um, just so that like when promotion time comes, you can point to it specifically and be like, this is what I have contributed.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And you you do a wins document, right? That's something you've always done. Yes. So fortunately, when I was working in the corporate workplace, I had a boss. I've had many bosses that were all very supportive of me. And something they encouraged me to do was to keep a wins folder. So anytime my project went well or we hit these metrics, or, you know, I had my design partner say something like, Cherie was a great person to work with on this project, would love to partner with her again and would recommend her for XYZ. Like you take screenshots of those emails, you put it in a folder, and you can reference it whenever you need to, especially when promotion time comes around. Cause like, let's say you do have a boss who is very supportive of you. But when promotion time comes around, they're like, oh, that project you worked on, how did it move the needle? Or like, where did where how did it go? And you have to have those numbers ready because you want to support your boss who is supporting you.
SPEAKER_00It's so easy to forget, you know, all of those things because like day to day, every single day, or new project at a new project, but having it documented so when the time because the time will come where you have that one-on-one meeting. Yeah, and having evidence of success is that's great, solid advice for anyone out there.
SPEAKER_02It's annoying to do in the moment because you're like, ugh, like, you know, like I don't want to do it day to day. I'm so busy, but like it's just taking a screenshot, drag it into a folder. Don't even name, like, rename the screenshots, screenshot number 585, but whatever. You'll go back to it at some point when you need it.
SPEAKER_01I wish I had this advice from her back when I was in my first or second job.
SPEAKER_03I kept all of the magazines, even though they didn't have my name on them. It just kind of felt like it was still part of my work. But what I wish I had done is even said to her at the time, hey, is there any way that we can do like maybe a double byline, or even, you know, is there an article that I can do that I can get a byline on and then you can kind of have the rest? But I think hindsight is 2020 when you're 20 years old.
SPEAKER_01So I like that. That's a good line. And I think one thing that you didn't have the benefit of that a lot of people now are starting to learn about is that we didn't know the norms going into an industry, right? When you're either really young or you're new to an industry and you don't know the norms, you can very easily be taking advantage of. And so one tip that I've learned over time is to build personal connections with people at your company or in your industry that are not on your specific team. So not your manager, not the person that you work with on a day-to-day basis, but just someone who you trust and can tell you what is normal in this industry. Yeah. How do you professional? Yeah, right. How do you professional? How do you professional? The work on professional.
SPEAKER_02How kind of professional in this industry? Because then you can like tell them like kind of what happened, tell them the T and be like, is this normal? Or am I being taken advantage of at work? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01There's so many times we're like, is this normal? Is this, am I crazy?
SPEAKER_00Is this normal? There's just nothing worse than being excited to start your new job and then getting to a place and being like, wait, this ain't it. And then that that disappointment of being like, this is not what I envisioned it adulting to be to be like. And so knowing someone or something, a soundboard where you can just be like, listen, I'm new. Obviously, I'm new here. I don't know how all of this works. I've only most times college or like an internship, but you're never really getting the full scope until you're in it and then you experience it.
SPEAKER_01The worst part is when you're just wondering to yourself, you're like, did I do something wrong? Is this normal? This feels wrong to me, like in my gut, in my intuition, but I don't know why. I don't know how this industry works.
SPEAKER_00You both had extraordinary credentials. We we talked about them at the beginning of the show. Ivy League degrees, patents, top-tier companies. Did stacking those credentials in your mind and maybe subconsciously not even thinking about it, feel like something you were doing intentionally, or is this to fight the bias? I need to be better than because, like I said, guys are just, oh, you look like you have potential to do something really great.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know what? It's not about stacking credentials, it's about stacking confidence. And in my career, I have been, I have so many war stories. Every time you say one of these stats, I've triggered through God. She's actually triggered. I'm so triggered. I've lived through every single one of these experiences. I have been the one where I've seen fellow male colleagues who were, you know, maybe equally or not as qualified, promoted many levels above because the idea was, oh, they'll grow into this role. They have the potential. Whereas I and my fellow female colleagues have been told, well, if you want to go to the next level, you actually need to perform at that level, be in that role, and show me you can perform at that next level for six months to a year. Then once you've proven yourself, we'll consider if we will promote you to that level. And that now that I think it's crazy. That's like total bullshit. Because we because now that I think about it, I'm like, okay, so you want me to do free work for you. You want me to work for you at the next level, do extra work, go through all the pains, and you don't pay me for that. And then maybe you'll consider it after.
SPEAKER_03And then you'll still promote someone else more than likely. Because that's that's how to really.
SPEAKER_00I'm like chills right now. You're gonna get the you're gonna do all the work and then get the we'll see. Yes. We'll see when. Yes. When all everything is done and have done it already for no money. Yes.
SPEAKER_01But going back to the reason I say it's confidence stacking is that back then I didn't have the confidence to say, no, that's not right. Like I see what's going on at the for everyone else in the company who's a man. And I didn't have the confidence then to stand in my power and say, no, you know what? This is not an equivalent situation. So I think it's about if you need the credentials to build up your confidence, that is one method. But another method is to just build up the reps and know that you are very, you're very uh self-assured and you can do it. Yeah, capable.
SPEAKER_03Capable. There is research by McKinsey and company that calls the narrow window for women kind of breaking through in their performance the avocado phenomenon. So if you've ever lived through an avocado, which we all have, it's like not ready, not ready, you're staring at it, it's not ready, and then you finally go to get it and you're too late. It's the window is gone. It's not ripe anymore. So the broken first rung on the women's ladder to success really is that do you did you ever in your careers feel urgency to be seen and to kind of accomplish things in this little, you know, window of space that you have?
SPEAKER_02Firstly, is recognizing how unfair it is that this avocado ceiling, this concept like is mainly applying to women, which is like we don't think about men just like having a narrow window for success, but women have this narrow window to achieve all this stuff and you know, put it on record that like they are capable of doing it. So I think the first thing is recognizing like it is really unfair. And if it is the reality that we're living in, like what can we do? One, two win despite and also change the system. And so I think a lot of it is finding allies along the way, um, like mentors who early in your career can tell you when something is right or when something, you know, smells kind of fishy or it's like not right or it's kind of wrong and this is what you should do. But for me, I think one of the ways to break through this avocado ceiling is just finding mentors who believe in you more than you believe in yourself. And that's something I did early on in my career. And I mean, very candidly, like they were men in the office. They were either my bosses or people on my team who very much supported me and saw my potential. Um, I think it's picking up allies because it's through those allies that you can create that change at the end. It's like when you're early in your career and you see something's wrong, it's really hard to be like, this should change, and I'm gonna change it right now. Candidly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think you need to build allies along the way and prove that you are good at your job. And once you do that, you can change it for all the people who are coming after you.
SPEAKER_03And how how do you recommend doing that? Because I know I feel like all of the people that I've had, like either like my work aunties or just like I have just happened upon by chance and gotten really lucky. But for the people who aren't lucky, how do you begin to build those relationships or find those people with that, you know, are gonna offer you that window of support or that, you know, encouragement or believing in you and just the advice and that you can tell the T?
SPEAKER_02It takes a lot of work. It's not gonna happen just by like wishing it. I think there are a couple ways to go about it. So I think it can happen very naturally if you are in proximity, somehow, if you're in a meeting or you're in like a giant Zoom call, you see someone speaking that you're like, wait, I think we vibe. I really like how this person um like holds themselves and how they approach their career. I'm like, there's a lot to learn there. So I think after a meeting happens, it's sending that LinkedIn request with a note being like, hey, I just saw you speak, or maybe it's a Slack message if they're open to that as well. And when you're looking for a mentor, a lot of it is relationship building. And instead of asking for help, it's giving help to that person before receiving anything from them. And I think a lot of people early on, like, I've gotten some mentorship requests from people who I don't know. And I think it's very jarring because you're like, I don't know you. I'm like, maybe I can help you, but like I don't know you yet. So a lot of it is kind of like the unsaid relationship building where you're like, okay, how can I help someone who is much further along in their career? Maybe sending them an article that's relevant to, you know, a talk they just gave, or it's like simple things you can do to offer help before asking for help.
SPEAKER_00That's great, great advice because you need to give something, it's a give and take in in that relationship if someone's giving of their time to you as well. One in three young women have had someone else take credit for their ideas at work. Has that ever happened to either of you? And also in that moment, maybe not knowing what you know now, how did you handle it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so here I go with another war story for you guys. Not only did this happen to me, but it happened to me the the one time I remember the most is that it happened to me, and the person who took credit for my idea was the head of all engineering for the entire company. So, what did I do? I sat in stunned silence. I did not a thing. I I I was so shocked that this happened because I literally, I was like, I literally just said this exact statement five minutes ago. Nobody in this meeting reacted, nobody said a thing, and then now the head of engineering said it and everyone's like tripping over themselves. Wow, you're so right. What an amazing idea. Incredible. I was in a role where I, unlike Cherie, did not feel supported by my manager. So I knew that if I went to my manager, nothing was gonna happen about it, right? So I think, you know, we want to bring solutions to this this conversation, but I think it's also I think it's also um important to kind of honor and empathize with your your old self, with your younger self and be like, you know what? She didn't know better. And and that's okay. And it wasn't her fault. And these are experiences that sometimes we have to go through and we can we have to share our war stories so that people, younger women now can learn that okay, when this happens in the moment, it it should be called out. You don't have to say it to your manager, but you should bring it up to someone else so that you can at least get some advice on like, hey, is this normal? Is this something that should have happened? Yeah. And for next time, what should I do about it?
SPEAKER_00I think there's a lot of times where we're asking a lot of people, like, oh, this here's how you handle the situation, but when you're in it, yeah, you do sit shocked because you're like, I can't believe I have to shock. Woman was too stunned to speak. I was too stunned to speak. Yeah, and that's okay because how many times have you left work being like, damn, that was kind of fucked up. And you're like, Well, I wish I would have said something then. And now you have to have what are the steps of going back after that? Where do you go with that information after you realize, man, that was just not right?
SPEAKER_01I even remember for that meeting, I was like, okay, I have to make sure I sit at the table so that I can speak up and so my ideas are heard. And I was like, I thought I was doing everything right. I was sitting at the table, I was like, you know, had all my notes ready. I was, and also back then, I I don't know if you guys have done this, but I put this requirement requirement on myself where I was like, I'm only gonna speak up in a meeting if I think my idea is so like revolutionary that no one else would have thought to say this, that this is the most incisive, insightful comment ever. And at the time I said it and it was, it was like a an incredible insight, and no one said anything. Yeah. So I was like all the more shocked. Looking back on it, I think one thing I could have done better to your question that Cherie has done an incredible job of in her career is having those allies in the room and building up those relationships with people who will call it out for you. Yeah. You know, when you a lot of times in the room, you feel like I can't say that out loud because I'm gonna come across as XYZ. But having the relationship and having people in the room who are looking out for you, that takes a lot of time and energy to build. And it takes a lot of, takes a lot of work. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean, it's also all the more powerful if someone can speak on your behalf if they are more senior than you. Yes. And that doesn't just happen, like Jean said, like overnight. It is that relationship building. It is finding like those people who will be in the room for you. So this has happened to me, not in such like um a dramatic or like obvious way, but like in a meeting, like I would say something, and then someone who is more senior than me would like repeat my idea as if it were their own. But I remember this very specific instance. My my VP was in the room and we had spoken maybe a couple days ago. So it was like fresh on his mind where I have brought this up to him before. And very casually, when that person said the same thing I said, he accredited it to me and he like wrapped up the conversation, accredited to me, and then moved on. It was very casual. I got the credit, you know, as someone who was very junior on the team, but he was very aware of the dynamic and knew that like his voice would have way more power than me, even standing up for myself. Cause like I don't even know it's really hard to do that in the moment when you're young on your team. So hard to do that. And he was smooth with it too. And he was smooth with it too. So that like, and also it's you walk so you could run. Exactly. Yeah. So you really want someone like that on your side, and that happens behind the scenes. That happens before the meeting even happens.
SPEAKER_03So sometimes ageism against young women actually doesn't come from men. Cause I think we stereotypically think of this as like just it being older men, it sometimes comes from older women. And I know as a journalist and in the like in the news industry, I do feel like there is a lot of that sometimes. I don't know if you've experienced it, but for me, there's, you know, this like wait your turn energy. Like people tend to, especially like like as anchorers, tend to stay in their jobs for a really long time. Yeah, they stay in their jobs for forever. And so it's kind of like if you want those opportunities there that to kind of like, you know, either fill in or get in, they're very scarce. And sometimes you get this, you know, wait your turn energy, or you kind of like get like low-key hazed, like, you know, like you know, the the little things. Um, have you seen that in in just either your conversations or your own personal experiences with it happening through women? And and how do you even talk about it without pitting women against women?
SPEAKER_02It hasn't happened to me personally, and um, I can speak for like two points. One, I think it happens a lot also to my friends in finance because there's so few women at the company or at the top. There's only so many MDs or directors who are women in that role. And so the idea, the prevailing belief is that like there can only be one of them. And so it's so frustrating because you're like, we're all fighting for this one role when there's like so many more men who have this role. So we really need to expand the pie. And I think I can definitely empathize, sympathize for my friends who are in that position. Working in the tech industry, I think there was a lot of, you know, coming out of the pandemic, a lot of focus on parity and making sure there are more women in leadership positions and having employee resource groups. We had one at LinkedIn when I was there called Women in Product. And so instead of like pitting women against each other, it was getting them all together and being like, okay, so we're the ones in this company. How do we make a change and how do we support one another and actually look to each other for mentorship rather than as competition?
SPEAKER_03Do you think that there's such a thing as healthy competition in the workplace? Because I know I'm a very competitive person and I know someone else working harder or, you know, the potential of them outworking me or, you know, getting something that I may want kind of motivates me a little bit to work harder in my own like petty way. And even if I'm not like, even if they're my friend, I'm not in direct competition with them in my mind. There's like a little, like, you know, like a little clock that's like, okay, like I'm, you know. But is there such a thing as healthy competition, or is that like a, you know, outdated thinking?
SPEAKER_02I like healthy competition when you're genuinely friends with someone and you're like, I wish you well and I want the best for you. I also want the best for me too. I think it's really hard. Like we see a lot of TV shows and also friends in the finance world have shared with me, like when there's like five analysts and you only one of you can get a return, you know, offer for the next like round, like that's when the unhealthy competition comes out and then it's not pretty. I think when everyone has an abundance mindset of like, how can we all win? Yes, of course there's gonna be healthy competition. I think that's great. Like we should all, you know, encourage each other encourage each other and push each other to have the best ideas. That's what I really like. And one example. I have is that in my first job out of school, we didn't know what the baselines were for salary to get paid. And so we kind of unionized. We had a class. This is incredible. I can't like looking back on it, I love this story. So we were in an associate product management role. It's just a cohort of, I think, like 10 of us. And something we did was that when the first promotion cycle came around, we all like asked each other, like, wait, how much are you guys getting paid? Or like, what was your guys' offer for this? Because we got raises or like a bonus, but we hadn't spoken about it then. And we realized some people were being paid way more, like an egregious, like a hundred thousand dollars more in terms of bonus, even though we all started at the same time and we're part of the same program. And so we unionized. We were like, all right, spreadsheet. Everyone put your information. Put your information in. So smart. Right. And so I think it was a lot of the mindset which I really have to credit, you know, my cohort with like it was all like, how do we share information with each other to help each other and not be like, I'm making more money. So they shouldn't be making more.
SPEAKER_00And be transparent about it. And when you brought it to the manager, they're like, rah, wrong.
SPEAKER_03And well, HR was just like, let us take a look at that. The truth is that you're stronger together. Like, you know what I mean? If one person goes and asks for something and gets it, and then there's three other people, like, you know, and collective bargaining. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00The age discrimination and employment act only protects workers 40 and older. Meaning young women have zero legal resources, really, when it comes to any of these age-based biases that we're talking about. But what tools do they actually have that they can use when this type of situation does come up for them?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, I think what this means is that for young women, there is no legal recourse. And so because of that, you need to really rely on yourself. I I mean, I sometimes I hate to say it, but it's it starts with you, right? That's what we're we're kind of learning a lot these days. And I think the first thing that you start with is actually building a lot of self-awareness and understanding when you're in a company, what is my role? Like what is not the role I've assigned myself, but how do people perceive me? And so I think a lot of times when you are a young woman or you look like a young woman or you're perceived as a young woman, you're kind of seen as the ingenue, right? And so a lot of times when you're really young, either you are put in the category of, oh, admin, or you're put in the category of, oh, she, I can take her under my wing because she is not a threat to me. But then what's very interesting is when you start to pr progress in your career, you know, you start getting good, you start showing a lot of uh your merits and your accomplishments, and you move into the role of, oh, she's actually my competition. So you need to actually be aware when these things are happening and not be too shocked so that you can't actually uh react to it in real time.
SPEAKER_02When I was early in my career, this was really hard because when you're a young woman and um especially in the tech world where it's not as um structured and you know, like you can be working with someone at the same level as you, but maybe it's a man and he's like 20 years your senior, you're like, wait, we're peers, but I'm like 20 years younger than you and I'm a woman and you have to kind of listen to what I'm saying. And I wear a crop top on the weekends. Okay. Okay. Well, I think I really love what Gene says because it starts with yours like with you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I think knowing the situation that you're walking into, how do people perceive you and how do I challenge that perception? I'm not gonna be wearing a crop top to work when I'm with a bunch of men who already want to discredit me or, you know, an maybe unconscious bias, you know, maybe I'll say it that way. Maybe it may not even be something they're aware of. But like if they're gonna discredit me by what I look like immediately, what I sound like, my age, like I'm gonna do what I can to fight against that, whatever I can control. And that is controlling how I show up at work, what I what I look like, what I'm wearing, and also like I want to be taken seriously.
SPEAKER_03And it sucks that we have to do that, but that is the reality of the situation. That's the reality of the workplace is until you get to like a certain point and you have that authority. The only way to get to that certain point is to kind of like play the game a little bit almost. And you know, I I hate to say it, but it's being like just what you said, aware of what you're wearing, aware of how you're carrying yourself, especially around like certain people. And I always feel like the people who are supposed to see you will, you know, for for who you are and what your mission is, will always find you in the workplace. At least that's what I've found, even the most chaotic of workplaces. You'll always find that one person who is just like, okay, I see what she's doing here, and I get it, and I like it, and I'm on board. You'll find your people. Find your people.
SPEAKER_00Um, Sheree, you have said that you want to help a billion people with their careers. So I ask you now, as we sit and have this conversation, what do you want a 25-year-old who is listening to this right now, who's been talked over in a meeting, who doesn't feel seen or had her ideas stolen last week. What do you want her to actually do about it today?
SPEAKER_02I think it first starts with knowing that you belong there, that like no one gave you this just because they wanted to, but like you deserve to be there. And so don't question yourself in the meeting when you are being talked over. And, you know, if someone is taking credit for your work, like that's not your fault. Like you belong there in your own right. I think that's the first place to start. And then I think the second thing is being able to stand up for yourself or finding people who can stand up for you if you are unable to in the moment. Um, I feel really, I have like so much empathy because I think being in the workforce and being, you know, especially in a very male-dominated space, if there aren't many people that look like you or sound like you, it can feel extremely alienating. But knowing that you belong, standing in your power and reminding yourself that you're there for a reason, I think is the very first place to start.
SPEAKER_01The one thing I'll add to that is that I also want to say it is okay to leave a situation. I think that is something that so many young women do not allow themselves because you're so used to being like, I have to fight it out. I have to prove my role here, I have to keep going until the bitter end. But at some point, when you can acknowledge yourself, this is not a situation that's gonna change. There are systemic uh barriers in place that I, in my current role, will never be able to change in this specific company or in this specific group under the specific manager. You have to give yourself permission to leave that and know that there are so many opportunities out there in the world. The one you are in is not the only opportunity. There's no last best deal. That's something we learned from our friend Susie Wells.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's good.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So, you know, if a company was serious about kind of fixing some of the, you know, ageism that they're seeing and actually auditing how young women move throughout their organization, where would you recommend that a company start? And what would you recommend be the first structural change that they could make to combat everything?
SPEAKER_02I love this question. And it starts with data. It's like, where are we right now as a company? So taking a look at, you know, for example, um, we spoke with um Mandy Ginsberg, who is the former CEO of Match Group, which is the parent company for Tinder, Hinge, OKCupid. And in our conversation with her, she shared that she looked at the data and looked at pay transparency and how much are women versus men at her company being paid and making that information available to people. So I think it's looking at the data, where are we now, so that we can figure out where we want to go. At LinkedIn, something that I know that our women in product and our product leaders did was they also looked at the data. How many women are in leadership roles, like director and above, women versus men? And of course, they need to publish that data to hold themselves accountable. So I don't remember if it was quarterly or it was annually, but they updated the stats and made sure that people knew that this was a number that they were looking at and one that they were constantly going to go back to so that they were held accountable.
SPEAKER_03Question for everybody Do you think that companies should be either responsible for or should choose to publish everyone's salary and be transparent in that way? Just like how I know right now for like I think it's New York and California, has you have to put in when you are um putting a job role how much a job role pays, or maybe it's just New York and California just kind of does it, is it? Should you believe that, you know, companies should have to do that as well is make transparent, just like how we know how much like the big leaders of all of the, you know, Hollywood studios are making and those are very transparent. Should we also know what the most junior of us are making, or is that like dangerous? What are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I've always been a fan of pay transparency because it's it's happened to me before where like I was hired for the exact same job as a man, and then we got close, we got married. That one. And I was like, No, when we started at Blah Blah, he's like, I wasn't making that. I was like, I'm sorry, what? It was the same job, and it was like and it was like $25,000 more than me. And I was like, Oh, that's why you pay for every dinner, but it was like so jarring to me that I was like, You were night side, I was day side, same fucking job. And like it, but uh but she's like, I've I had so much more experience. And I was like, I guess that didn't matter because I got the same job as you, so you could have just worked less in your lifetime and you would have gotten the same job as me. But it was like, I was like, okay, cool, justify that. You could at least just be like, that's unfair. Yeah, that's how it it ends up. And so, like, I now love seeing how much people are making because I should be making the same, or if not more, then whatever, because you know, levels of seniority or people on the same page not making the same money makes no sense to me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I think a hundred percent on an aggregate level, there should be pay transparency because you know what the reality of the the reality of the world we live in is that we live in a patriarchy, right? So as a as a gender, as a sex, that we only ever got the ability to have bank accounts, what in the 80s, in the 70s, like within our lifetime, right? We are still trying to catch up in a patriarchy. And so I think as companies, there is a sort of there's a moral impetus that these companies have to society to be able to progress our society, and part of that is pay transparency. What do you think?
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah. I mean, this is why we we unionized my gosh, right? I was just like I think on an like, but in general, having aggregate data, like what are you hiding? Like if we have aggregate data, whenever a job doesn't have the amount, I'm just like, well, you're lying. Also, I I think information is power. And so the more information you have, whether it's from your company or it's from these like salary websites where you can see a role and like aggregate information, like you need to use that information. You need to triangulate it and then bring it so that you can figure out how much you are supposed to be paid.
SPEAKER_00When we talk about women who might be in this situation, and maybe they're like, things are getting a little toxic, or I'm getting spoken over often. It's a pattern. This is systemic, what's happening at this place? And maybe they're just young, they're just starting out. A lot of this is about being in your maybe first or second job, which can be already scary because you have to pretend adult as much as you can. What is your advice to them on getting out and moving on, which you kind of touched on a little bit before? And I do love what you guys talk about on uh one of your episodes is like this always is such a good reminder. Can you remind people what HR really is?
SPEAKER_01HR is working for the company. HR is not working for you. Do not confess your, do not open your soul, do not confess everything to HR ever because they're not on your side.
SPEAKER_00They're there to protect the company. Definitely made that mistake. Um, so when it comes to getting out, maybe don't go to HR about your plans on leaving. But what should a young woman do when they're realizing this this ain't it?
SPEAKER_01I think the first thing is to really do a lot of reflection and understand why I'm in this role and what is my primary goal for why I'm in this role. Am I in the role because I'm gonna do my two years, right? Let's say I'm in an analyst program at Goldman Sachs. I'm gonna do my two years and then I'm gonna get out because I'm gonna gain so much, you know, knowledge and I'm gonna gain so much um professional kind of experience from this role that it's very important for me to finish these two years. Or am I in this role because I'm making so much bank and I'm able to pay off my student loans and I am and I'm I'm just gonna eke it out until XYZ time? Or am I in this role because it's a new industry that I've broken into? And this is the role, the first role that I could get in this industry, right? So I think it's really important to first reflect to yourself and say, why did I take this role? What was my primary goal? Have I achieved that goal? And can I now move on to the next step? Can I do that somewhere else? And really understanding that for yourself first before you can take the leap. And then the next thing I would say is do your research. Have a million conversations, as many conversations as you can with people who are, especially if you're trying to switch industries, with people who are in that industry industry. Ask anyone you know, hey, can you introduce me to someone who works at XYZ company? Like, hey, I saw you're connected to this person on LinkedIn. Do all of that research so that you can feel really confident about your next move and as informed as possible.
SPEAKER_00And the other thing that I love that you said is write everything down for yourself in case you do need it. Because if you are in a toxic, maybe you have a toxic manager or something, you need proof of those things. If anything does go down with HR, the people who are trying to protect the company. So yeah, documenting, I wish I was just better at that. Cause like I just get so fired up when things happen that I forget, like maybe I should write this down so I remember. But I think I'm so mad at the time I will remember, which never happens ever. And I'm like, that what a bad situation that was. But having stuff written down, like you said, as simple as a screenshot, it goes a long way when you need that going forward. You guys have such a good bond between each other. How has just sisterhood been when it comes to you had a lot of horror stories and the opposite, you had a lot of support? Like, how do you guys lean on each other when it comes to work?
SPEAKER_02It's been an incredible evolution, maybe over the last decade, because for most of my life, Jean is seven years older than me. I've seen her as my role model. What? You guys can we're not twins.
SPEAKER_03I actually thought you guys were like maybe like two years of the water. You know what?
SPEAKER_02People say that, and I'm like, are you kidding? What? Sorry, but which way I should say sorry too, but sorry. But Jean looks amazing. So but she's seven years my senior, even though she doesn't look look it, but she's always been my role model and someone I've very much looked up to, career-wise, life-wise, everything. Um and so I feel so fortunate to have someone who has paved the path for me in a way. I very much, you know, copy-pasted her career where she went to um a tech company, worked as a product manager, I went to a tech company, worked as a product manager. She got her MBA, I got my MBA. And so I just feel very lucky to have seen her as a mentor throughout my entire life and also a best friend. Now that we're almost two years into Tiger Sisters, where we're working together, I would say our relationship has evolved where for the first time, like we're kind of peers. I mean, we're co-hosts, co-founders of our media company and Tiger Sisters Podcast. So I think our relationship has evolved. She's my, she was my mentor, still is my mentor. But I'm like, wait, now we get to now we're peer mentors.
SPEAKER_01It's actually it's very, very cool because for me, since I'm seven years older, she's always been my baby sister, right? And we haven't, we live together now, we work together. We have the last time we lived together, she was 10 years old. Oh, yeah. Because I went off to college, which is insane. And so now to finally view her as this fully grown, fully, fully flowered, like blossomed adult who is so incredible at what she does, it's such a joy. It's such a gift. It's like the best. I don't know. I'm like living my absolute dream right now to be able to work with my sister and see how amazing she is and get to also benefit from that as her co-founder, not just her sister.
SPEAKER_00I really love what you said about having advocates and people speak up for you when you don't feel like you have the voice. And I think for someone starting out in a new company or that is a little shaky, we don't all have this boisterous can get into a room and be like, that's not fair, like off the bat. So I think it's nice that behind the scenes, whether it be emails, slacks, or grabbing coffee together, whatever it is to build relationships where you know you have an ally, I think it's just such solid good advice because it doesn't always have to be big. It can be something small and you never know who what those relationships who's gonna stand up for you, who really also trust and believe in your work.
SPEAKER_03And I think the most underrated piece of advice that you just said that I've actually been thinking about in this moment because it's important for early career people, but I think it's also important as you go through your career is actually thinking about, and even if you're not planning an exit immediately, is what you said about thinking about what you want out of a job before you get there. Is this for funsies? Is this for the money right now? Is this to take me to the next level? Is this because I'm switching careers and I need an endpoint? And how long do I want to be doing this for? I think that is such a helpful conversation to have with yourself and to check in with yourself throughout your career because that can inform how you move through somewhere. That can inform the allies that you make. All the advice that we just kind of discussed, that making that decision early on can inform how you do all of that.
SPEAKER_01I exactly. I think it's having that really honest conversation with yourself. And a lot of times, sometimes we say on Tiger Sisters, you have to confront yourself. Like sometimes that's something you need to do. Yeah. It's like be a little confrontational with yourself.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and also like having a strategy. Like I think it's all very strategic thinking and strategic planning. Um, because I think everyone should have a plan, whether it's you know, three-year plan, two-year plan, one year plan, whatever it is. And it's okay if you don't know. Do I want to be here for three projects or eight projects? It's okay if that part is like kind of a question mark as you're figuring it out, but have a plan written in pencil because then you can always change and revise things along the way.
SPEAKER_00Thank you guys. Thank you guys. We have a gate cell. This is so fun. Okay, so here's your first fill in the blank. The phrase that signals a manager doesn't take young women seriously is You're so ambitious.
SPEAKER_01I've had that said to me. And I was like, oh, they don't mean that in a positive way. They do not mean that in a positive way. That's meant as a put down.
SPEAKER_03The one word that describes what it feels like to constantly have to prove yourself is disappointing.
SPEAKER_00Exhausting. The biggest career myth sold to young women right now out of college is get rich quick.
SPEAKER_02You can do it overnight. I think careers are built over time through trust and consistency.
SPEAKER_01I think for me, I would say the myth is that the workplace is a meritocracy because college very much is a meritocracy, right? You do studying, you you do your best, you take the tests. The real world is not like that.
SPEAKER_03When someone takes credit for my idea in a meeting, the first emotion I feel is rage. Hey.
SPEAKER_01Simmering rage. Yeah, just the rage is just simmering under the surface at all times.
SPEAKER_00Um, the company culture red flag that every woman should run from is oof.
SPEAKER_02Having like company outings that are specific for men and like skills and activities that are like, oh, we're all gonna go play golf, you know, or we're gonna, you know, do this one act, we're gonna go hunting or, you know, go to a like a shooting like practice.
SPEAKER_01And like, hmm, that seems kind of gendered. Yeah, I would say when you realize that all the men are hanging out together on the weekends and doing activities without you.
SPEAKER_00The one word that describes what young women need most in their workplace is self-assuredness, support.
SPEAKER_01Let's get to the flax.
SPEAKER_00Manager says, We're all family here.
SPEAKER_01Oh it depends on the manager. That's I don't know, is that a cop out to say it depends? Because if they're saying it in order to be like, we're all family here, so work on Saturdays and Sundays, like my family, like we're family, then that's that's not that's not good. If they're like, we're all family here, so you can tell me anything and you can trust me, then it's good.
SPEAKER_03All right, call someone out in a meeting when they take credit for your idea. I mean, wish I had done that. Ask for your opinion during a brainstorm. Oh, yeah. Doesn't have capacity or bandwidth for your ideas, but still has capacity for their own ideas.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's no good. Sad. Sad. Kindly ask you to work on the weekend. If it's gonna help the employees' career and help them progress, I think it's okay. But I'm squarely millennial. I I well for Tiger Sisters, I work every single weekend.
SPEAKER_03So checks in frequently on your work.
SPEAKER_02Oh, micromanaging. Sounds like micromanaging. It also depends on how it's done too and like where it's coming from. If they don't trust you and they're micromanaging, then I think that's a red flag. It is giving a red flag. It's giving a red flag.
SPEAKER_00Oh, they themselves work on the weekend.
SPEAKER_02It depends on the work environment. Are they like pressuring you? Are they trying to set the example like I'm working on the weekend, you need to work on the weekend? If so, red flag.
SPEAKER_01If everyone's working on the weekend, I want to see them working on the weekend.
SPEAKER_00Oh, see, that's true. That's a good one. You were that's a really good one.
SPEAKER_03You know, they say we'll see how it goes when you ask for more responsibility.
SPEAKER_01No, there needs to be a plan. They have to be like, okay, that sounds good. Let's sit down together, or why don't you put together a proposal for me and we can review it together at our next one-on-one.
SPEAKER_00Notices you've been working really hard and tells you to take a day off.
unknownOoh.
SPEAKER_00I kind of like that.
SPEAKER_01Whoa, does that ever happen? It does. Sure, you can have Tuesday off. Okay.
SPEAKER_02My overlord. We are working on Saturday. In addition to um, you've been working so hard, like take the day off. It's like you've been working so hard. Here's your bonus. Like that's kind of what I want to see. Yeah, you're right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. All right. Skips all your one-on-one meetings.
SPEAKER_00Ugh, no. What? No. Well, I think some people in that situation will be like, great, they don't need to check up on I'm doing a good job. But it isn't that. It's disguised.
SPEAKER_02I think it's disguised. If they're skipping it and it's like they're leaving you hanging, you're like, oh, I thought we were supposed to meet. Where are you? Like, I think that's a total red flag.
SPEAKER_01No, it means they don't care, they don't give a shit about you. Yes. Or your development or your growth and like la di-dah.
SPEAKER_02Just manage yourself. Like all they have to do is show up. I do think it is on the employee to be like, okay, we're in a one-on-one. Here are the things we're going to discuss. But as a manager, you just need to show up and be open-minded and wanting to help your employee move up.
SPEAKER_00Text your personal phone when you don't answer slacks.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so this is probably a hot take. Some probably I think most people don't want to be bothered on their phone. But I think if you have a texting relationship with your manager and also other people on your team, so much can be built outside of the workplace. Whether it's like sending, you know, like just like funny memes or like articles or things that are outside of work. Like I think that's the secret sauce in building relationship. And some people have like a very strict like wall being like work, slack text, not for people at work. But I see the, you know, those walls kind of blur in that way. And I think that you should use that to your growth. Would you be giving it a green flag? A respectful green flag.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I agree. Asks how you prefer your feedback. Oh, wow. Yeah. I think it's good because you do you every person learns just like every person learns differently, you receive your feedback differently on how you un to improve. So I I do think you should ask because not everyone's built the same and might take it a a certain way or be defensive because this is not their style. So I think it is important to know your if you're a manager, know who's underneath you and how they like to receive the message.
SPEAKER_02And when to receive it too.
SPEAKER_00Okay, we have learned a lot. Well, hopefully, if you're listening to this episode and you are young and in your first or second job, you're taking a lot of this with you. We are here. You can find us on social if you have any questions. You can also listen to the Tiger Sisters because they go through a lot more topics that I can't even begin to touch on because my corporate journey is very small.
SPEAKER_03On the other side of things, even if you're not a younger woman, if you are someone that's older in the workplace, you'll take note of all of the things that we have said that are maybe happening to younger women and position yourself as an ally or position yourself as someone who is there to, you know, pull young women up because it's all happened to us. We've all been there, and I think it's time to kind of break the cycle. Be on the right side of history here. Thank you guys so much. Thank you guys for really good. Thanks for having us. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Broadlines, a production of a female quotient filmed in Los Angeles. If you like this episode, and I know you did, make sure to rate, review, and subscribe. If you have a question, maybe a work question, or you have an idea for an episode, DM us at female quotient or leave a comment to get the conversation started. Hit that follow button while you're there. See you next week.