What You Don't Know About Prenups Could Cost You | Nicole Lapin

Most people think a prenup is only for the ultra-wealthy or a sign your marriage is doomed before it starts. In reality, it might be the single most important financial conversation you'll ever have. On this week's episode of Broadlines, hosts Rae Williams and Natalie Lizarraga sit down with Nicole Lapin, New York Times bestselling author and host of the Money Rehab podcast, to demystify what a prenup actually is, what's legal, what's a red flag, and why the smartest people in the room are the ones asking for one.

From the wildest real clause Nicole has ever seen someone try to sneak in, to the one thing most women forget to ask for that could be worth six figures, to how to protect a business you built before you say "I do." Stay for the exact framework for bringing it up without starting a fight, and the rapid-fire round where the hosts answer "fuck yes or fuck no" to the internet's boldest prenup takes.
You'll never look at "I do" the same way again.

EPISODE CREDITS...
Hosted by Rae Williams and Natalie Lizarraga
Directed by Sydney Kramer
Executive Produced by Sydney Kramer and Rachel Apirian
Produced by Rae Williams and Natalie Lizarraga
Filmed & Edited by Davielle Waldner

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Broadlines is a production of The Female Quotient and recorded in Los Angeles, California. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I talked to a woman whose now ex-fiance suggested a baby weight clause, which are illegal. Like there was a certain period that she had in order to lose the baby weight.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Can you imagine you find that out after? Is like that's his expectation. I could throw up. That's so gross. I will break up this wedding if you don't. Welcome to Broadlines, a weekly video podcast by the Female Quotient, where real headlines meet real conversation.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

I'm Ray Williams, an entertainment, lifestyle, and culture journalist. I'm Natalie Lazaraga, a journalist and news anchor. Today we are talking about the ring, the dress, the Pinterest board, and the prenup. We cannot wait to get started with this conversation. We actually asked around to people just in the streets what was the first thing they thought of when they heard the word prenup. So let's take a look.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

What is the first word that comes to your mind when you hear the word prenup? Where do I sign? I want one. Saving money. Smart. Safety. Safety for women, safety for everyone involved. You want to keep your asset safe.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

The Drake song. Make sure you hit them with prenup. Yes. If I got married older, I for sure do it. Your money's your money. You have no idea what's gonna happen in life, especially if you're someone who invests in your own career.

SPEAKER_03 1:12

Women should make men's eye prenups because the women are out here making money. Okay, I think it's so interesting because I was expecting a lot more negative reaction. And it looks like when you hit the streets, you got a lot more positive reaction.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Yeah, everybody was like really into it. But what I noticed is that even though people were into it, it kind of felt like they didn't felt feel like it maybe applied to them. So they were like, oh yeah, like great idea if you're older, great idea if you have a lot of money or like you're the successful one, or that kind of thing. Um, so it was it was interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

So we're gonna try to break down some of those old ways of thinking because a lot of people still probably have those buried in there. We're gonna break down what we used to think of them and why this actually might be the smartest financial decision you can make before walking down the aisle.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

And to break it all down, of course, we have a special guest, Nicole Lapin is here with us. She is a New York Times best-selling author and host of Money Rehab Podcast. So welcome, Nicole.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

We're gonna get into it. Thank you for joining us. We're getting right into it. You saw those reactions there for the people on the side. I liked them.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

Yeah. What's they were really your first word though? When I think prenup, I think clarity. I think it's not about preparing for divorce, it's about preparing for the marriage. And it's so important to have clarity going into any adult relationship. Every adult relationship has agreements and boundaries, right? You have a lease with your landlord, you have a contract with your employer. Why wouldn't you have a financial operating agreement with the most important financial decision that you're ever going to make, which is your spouse?

SPEAKER_01 2:48

And so for those people who don't know or kind of new to the concept of a prenup, what exactly is that?

SPEAKER_02 2:53

So a prenuptial agreement is a legally binding contract that you sign before marriage and it covers income. It also covers debt in the case of death or divorce. So this is an agreement that you have ideally when things are lovey-dovey, you're in a good spot so that a judge or courtroom isn't going to decide what's happening in your specific situation when things get bad. Yeah. And by the way, everybody has a prenup.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Whether you make it or not.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Whether you make it or not, it's the state's law that is your default prenup. And most people don't even realize what that state's law is. Yeah. Wow. What is it in California? It's a community property state. So essentially everything is a 50-50. But if you want to make your rules for your own relationship, it's a prenup. And I don't know about you guys, but I want to make the rules for my own life, especially when it comes to what happens in my marriage.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Yeah. What's the biggest myth you think that is going around right now about prenups?

SPEAKER_02 3:55

I think that it's between an old guy protecting himself from a gold digger. I think that more and more women, as you guys talk about all the time, are starting businesses, creating real equity in those businesses, have a lot to protect, have a lot at stake. And so my prenup was ready to go. And yes, women are marrying later. I got married and had a baby at 40. Same. My prenup was ready to go though.

SPEAKER_03 4:21

But I did not have one ready to go. But now I'm rethinking a lot of things because it's like it's not not romantic or it's not pessimistic. It's smart.

SPEAKER_02 4:31

I think that having an intimate conversation about your money is one of the most romantic things that you can do because you're really talking about the life that you're going to build together. And everybody needs an operating manual, an operating agreement for something like that.

SPEAKER_03 4:44

Uh, there's a lot of studies that show like 83% of people who get a prenup, couples that get a prenup actually feel like it's beneficial to their relationship. But as I just said, like a lot of people think it's a jinx or it's it's pessimistic. Why do you need that if you're not going to get divorced? Like you're prematurely thinking of a failure, right? How do we reframe that for women and for couples out there?

SPEAKER_02 5:04

I don't think a prenup is planning for divorce. It's planning for what you want in your marriage. And one of the most dangerous things that women can do going into a relationship financially, especially if they're planning to take time out to be in the home, is not adding a homemaker clause. It's one of the things that's often overlooked when dealing with prenups. And staying at home, caretaking, household management absolutely is a job. If you were to outsource those things, it would be $100,000 to $150,000 a year.

SPEAKER_03 5:37

It's insane how much childcare can be. And like you said, the invisible work that someone is doing at home doesn't, how do you quantify that in a prenup? You just do that.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

You quantify exactly what that is in a prenup, and you can have different provisions. So you can have different types of built-in spousal support. You can have an accelerated uh vesting of equity for the time that you're out of the workforce. You can have more division of property to compensate for the time that you're potentially out of the workforce, or they were out of the workforce, or who knows what's going to happen. But it's important to think about all of these things again before you walk down the aisle when things are lovey-dovey and you're in a good place. Sometimes people also put in provisions for a mediation clause, and that saves a lot of money down the road, too. So it stipulates that you should go to mediation before going into litigation, which is obviously super duper expensive. So these are things that you want to talk about, not in a contentious way, but in a way that says, hey, babe, we're a team and this is the type of relationship, these are the agreements, these are my financial values that I want reflected. And I want to decide I don't want the state of California or state of New York or any state. And by the way, you should check what those state laws are because we know.

SPEAKER_03 6:55

I have a question for you. Do you think that it makes, because when people split, there's a lot of resentment on both sides. There's, you know, there could be unpredictable behavior, but when it's written and you've already decided, hey, this is what, if we do split, here's what's happening. Do you think it makes it, I mean, more amicable? Because there's like, we can't stray from this paper. This you can't backstab me or be dirty about it because we've already written out what it's going to look like.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

Well, oftentimes there is also uh renewal clauses where you can relook at what that agreement was in five years or in 10 years. And I highly recommend those as well because the marriage that you're getting into is not the marriage that it's going to become. So if somebody does leave the workforce, if somebody's business explodes, if they get an inheritance, these are all really important things to stipulate. And I think that couples that do have prenups are more likely to stay together because they're open and they're having those hard conversations early on. By the way, just the conversation of a prenup offers so much clarity into a relationship. How somebody talks about money, how they handle what those different scenarios are gonna be is gonna tell you a lot. I talked to a woman whose now ex-fiance suggested a baby weight clause, which are illegal. Like there was a certain period that she had in order to lose the baby weight. Stuff like that that came up, you want to know before you get married.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

I'm so glad this woman is not very misnamed. I'm so glad that that came up because I can you imagine you find that out after is like that's his expectation. Like so much so that he wanted to put it in a legal document. But speaking of that, what what can you because I mean when I think of like a prenup, I think of like so many fun things that you could throw in. And I have a couple of friends who have like what I think are a couple of like fun things in their prenubs. What can you legally what can you actually legally put in a prenub?

SPEAKER_02 8:49

So a lot of the other fun ones are like infidelity clauses or sex clauses or you know, how often do we visit in-laws, stuff like that. Oh my god. Those are not usually upholdable in the court of law. So those are big red flags. You you can put in whatever you want into the document, right? But those things and stuff like the wait clause.

SPEAKER_03 9:10

That's a I was my question was to you was like, what's the craziest thing you've seen or heard? But is that it? Or is there more?

SPEAKER_02 9:17

I mean that's the worst one that I've seen. And that was like, I will break up this wedding if you don't.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Wait, so did you say the infidelity clause is not legally interesting?

SPEAKER_02 9:27

Judges will throw that type of stuff out because the protection that you have, you know, is for the assets, for the income, for the property, for the debt, which is also really, really important to think about because you're not going in saying, hey, well, I don't have enough to protect, so I don't need a prenup, which is what we heard from the video. Yeah. You're also protecting yourself from what your significant other brings into the relationship, good and bad. So if they bring in debt, if you just got out of debt, so you if you're at zero and they have a boatload of debt, then you're actually ahead of them.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

Typically debt is considered separate property, but if you pay for the debt together, it could come back to you. They could want almost like a refund or a reimbursement for it. If you co-sign together, another sneaky thing is any tax debt. So when you start filing together, that then becomes yours too. So all of these things that are definitely not fun and sexy to think about are less fun and sexy to think about later on when things are bad and you're fighting.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

And is there a certain amount of money? Because I think we we heard in this, you know, people are pretty favorable, but like I said, the sentiment that I kind of heard was like, you know, if you have a lot of money or if you are the woman making money or if you, you know, are ahead, that type of thing, is there an actual number that you have to have in your bank account to get a like if I am like negative $75, can I still get a prenup?

SPEAKER_02 10:50

Absolutely. There's no magic number. It's about protecting what you have, what they are bringing into the relationship, don't forget. So you could stipulate that you don't want any part of that debt. You don't, you are not gonna take it on. Uh, you're also potentially building a business with that negative $75. Like, why do you have negative $75? It's because you bootstrapped your own business. It's really, really important for female entrepreneurs in particular to think about what their business valuation is before a marriage. Let's double-click on this for a second, if we can, because this is something that's often overlooked. The way that a business is valued, there's different methodologies for that. There's an asset valuation, there's an income valuation, and then there's a market valuation. And the way that the valuations are calculated are usually more favorable to one side than the other. Now, I'm not saying like you should try to get the lower valuation of your business going in so that later on they don't have a big stake in it. You want to, we're going into this marriage, right? Being upstanding, we want everybody to have what you guys decide. It's like not my marriage, it's whatever makes the most sense for you. But really think about what those different types of valuation methods are. And you also want to think about the date that that valuation happens. So if you're growing your business, an asset valuation is typically going to be the lowest type of valuation. An income valuation is gonna be higher, especially if it accounts for goodwill. So that's like, you know, if you have a podcast business or if you're a social media creator, that goodwill is that like X factor where you are the product. And typically that can be valued really high. So if you're in a situation where you are your business and that's where the big value is, then you're gonna want to try and have that goodwill clause taken out if you go with an income-based valuation, because otherwise it's gonna be valued much higher. Yeah. And that's not something that you want to deal with in the court of law. You wanna decide what that valuation looks like early on, and you also want to decide when that valuation happens. So a few different dates, either in the date of separation, the date of divorce filing, or the date that the divorce closes. So the longer a divorce takes, yeah, you know, if you have a bomb tech company, that valuation is gonna grow in those couple of years.

SPEAKER_03 13:19

Yeah. What's something that people are putting in their prenup that they shouldn't, and kind of vice versa? What's things something that should absolutely be in there from just the base level start of getting one?

SPEAKER_02 13:28

You shouldn't put in those fun clauses, whether they're fun, I know they they are so fun. It's like a date night clause. Let's not put that in there. It's just, you know, talk to your significant other about what you hope those expectations are. Actually, pet clauses or pet custody has been quite popular, and judges will adhere to whatever you want to happen to the dog or act to that idea. Um, you know, whatever animal you might have. And just make sure that you're thinking about what that homemaker clause is. It's one of the most important financial clauses that women can think about when talking about a prenup. And you just want to make sure that you have, let's say, a IRA that's a spousal IRA. So people think that going into a marriage, if you're out of the workforce, you can't have your own retirement account. You absolutely can. A spousal IRA is the same limit as a traditional IRA. So $7,000 a year over 30 years, that could be $300,000. So you want to make sure that you're taking care of yourself. And if you find yourself in that situation, you know, always make sure that you're keeping up to date with your professional designation. So if you're in cosmetology school or you had a real estate license, that you're always keeping up to date with that type of stuff as well. So make sure that there's a homemaker clause in what makes sense for you and your situation.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

So about half of prenup requests right now are actually being initiated by women. And I'm curious what you think is kind of driving, you know, this kind of new wave of like women looking at it and being like, I need that. Because we we know that, you know, women are gonna inherit a a bunch of money, not inherit from people, but from, you know, the financial sector, um, a bunch of money over the next couple of years. But besides that, what do you think is kind of like making people see that right now? Women especially.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

Women are creating more valuable businesses. We're coming into marriages later with more assets of our own. And we're gonna be big beneficiaries of this big wealth transfer that we're going to see over the next couple of years. And so there's more at stake here. I don't think this is about divorce planning. This is about finally understanding what our worth is and asking for it.

SPEAKER_03 15:45

Yeah. My next question was kind of the same. We're coming in with better jobs, more money, inheritance. What does that, how does that change what the modern pre prenup is looking like for women these days as opposed to maybe a before?

SPEAKER_02 15:56

I don't think it's that paradigm of rich old dude and you know, our favorite, like virtual and right.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Why do we have that? Yeah, no, he's like in Monaco and a Ferrari, and she's like it exists, like a very small Chanel. I don't know. I feel like those are the people about like, and it and I think our vision of it like heavily like unfavors the woman. Like it's always like she's the problem, and therefore the prenup is to protect him from her. I think that's like the traditional.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

Yeah. And there are, you know, certainly there are income disparities in relationships that you have. And sometimes it's stipulated because one spouse has a big family business or they're gonna have an inheritance coming up, or maybe their board actually stipulates that they have to do this. Um, you know, there's there are companies that will require officers and executives to have a prenup or have some sort of like what's gonna happen to this board seat, for instance. And so we're coming in with that paradigm that's shifted completely. We're also building equity, we're also building businesses. Some people definitely have family businesses, inheritances, companies whose board requires them to have a prenup. But what you should be really aware of if you're in that situation, if you're the other side of that situation, you always have to have your own lawyer. Always. So if somebody's like, here, have my family lawyer. Yeah. Or here's my recommendation. Yeah, like this is not a time to get a, I'm all about a discount, but not a discount lawyer in this scenario. So I would say, number one, make sure you always have your own lawyer. And by the way, you have to that sometimes if you don't, that will be invalid. I see. So always have your own independent lawyer. Each side has to have one. Always read every line. And I don't say this like to be pejorative. I hate reading contracts. My husband actually makes fun of me all the time. He's like, Did you actually read those or did you just talk you side? Right. I'm like, it's boring. I don't want to read a contract, but this is when please read every single line of what you're agreeing to, just as a reminder. And the third thing is that everything is negotiable. Every clause is negotiable. There's no standard in a prenup. So if somebody is telling you, no, no, no, this is a standard, this is not negotiable, this is just the way it needs to be. No, that is that is false. Yeah. And so always be aware if you're in that type of power dynamic, what the vibe is around that.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

And you can always push back and you can always negotiate. That's good advice that you might obviously maybe you've never been here before, and someone's telling you, no, this is just how it is. It's standard, but knowing you can negotiate any part of it is like solid advice.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Is there are there any other things that like say, you know, a woman is getting married and maybe the family is, you know, kind of like coaxing her into the prenup, or you know, it's kind of like this you're not getting married without it. Like you have to do the prenup and it's on the man's side. Is there anything else that she should be doing or looking for to kind of protect herself in that situation? Well you get leverage.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

I mean, the red flag there is if somebody's trying to force you to sign a prenup right before the wedding, that's a huge red flag. You know, a month going in dinner. No. No. And also if they're suggesting their own lawyers, no, those are big red flags. You know, if somebody is hesitant to talk about a prenup or sign a prenup, that's not necessarily an automatic red flag. But I want to know why. You know, if they're hesitant because they want to do more research, then that's a human reaction. That that seems fine. But if they're hesitant because they're just like, I'll just trust me. That is not a financial plan. Just trust me is not a financial plan. And so that is a big red flag because this conversation should be really loving. You know, we could even role play if you want.

SPEAKER_03 19:49

Well, I was just gonna get into that. So let's say, you know, you have to have the conversation and you didn't want to think it's like a jinx to your marriage, or like, let's just have it naturally. Where are we going? How are we having it? What's our approach? What's our tone? Like, lay out everything for us. Yeah, okay, because you're, you know, in a serious relationship.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

Obviously, we talk about like a lot of the episodes when we're preparing and stuff like that. And I told him that this episode was prenup. And I was like, Do you want a prenup? And he was basically like, Yeah, if you want one, yeah, we should get one. But that's the extent of the conversation. So, you know, I I in my mind I'm like, Oh yeah, he wants a prenup, I want a prenup, we'll get one. But I never thought of the like the intimate part of the conversation. Like, what are we actually putting in there? How do we talk about it?

SPEAKER_02 20:30

So, yeah. Yeah. I love the um timing, tone, and turf. This is not my saying. This is Emily Morris from Sex with Emily. And I love alliteration. I started as a poetry major. So timing, tone, and turf. So timing is not, you know, in the middle of an engagement trip where you're, you know, drunk and whatever. Um, but it's also not after a fight. And you're not coming in it with the tone of, I'm a lawyer, here's my PowerPoint presentation. My lawyer told me that I need this. This is not something that you win. A prenup is not a conversation you win. It's a prenup that you have as a plan together. This is a group project, after all. All of marriage is a group project, but this in particular, and the turf is somewhere your home, really comfortable. And it's like, hey, baby, you know, I'm really thinking a lot about our financial future. And I can't wait to build a life with you. And we're gonna be teammates here. I was listening to this amazing podcast, Bron Binds, and they were talking about prenups. You know, is that something that you would want to do? I'd love to look into this together. Yeah, it's a tone of curiosity. What if they say immediately no?

SPEAKER_03 21:38

Okay, well, that is a beige flag. Okay, beige, okay, good beige flag. Oh, okay. Okay, then the uh the other option is okay, tell me more.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

Yeah. Okay, well, let's look into it together. You should we listen to the podcasts? Like, I think that I'd love to hear more about what you're thinking about with our big financial dreams. What do you want? These are about Dreams, right? Dreams have price tags. So I think going into the conversation with what are your values? And by the way, this is a conversation that you must have before you walk down the aisle. Did you Google your significant other before you went on a date? Oh yeah. He was well stocked. Right? Well stocked. Well stocked. Why would you not pull a credit report for him before you got married? Right? Yeah, I haven't his credit report yet. But but have a full net worth conversation. So what is net worth? It's assets minus liabilities. What are the things you're bringing into this relationship? Minus what are the things that you owe? Who do you owe? What are what are those conversations around how do you think about family money? Are there going to be inheritances coming up? What do you want to do with your money? You know, money without meaning is just paper. Yeah. And so what is that meaning to you?

SPEAKER_01 22:56

That's something to get on the same page about. And when exactly do you do that? Because we just said a while ago, like if someone is trying to get you to sign a prenup the night before the wedding or at the rehearsal dinner, that's probably a red flag. But how far in advance, like, do you? I mean, we're obviously not engaged yet. Yet. Is he listening? Oh, he's listening. We're not engaged. She's not tromping hints at all. She's just speaking relatively. But when did you start the process of putting that prenup together?

SPEAKER_02 23:25

Yeah. Um, I think the conversation should start right before you get engaged or shortly after. Interesting. Okay, he's that far in advance. I think you're doing it exactly right. You're testing the waters, you're talking about it, you're saying, you know, I've been hearing about this, love to hear your thoughts. I think the tone is really curious, right? It's not judgy. It's like, I'm really curious about all the tools because this is a tool, right? That will help us in our marriage together and all of our financial hopes and dreams. And there are other tools that you have to think about too: a will, advanced directive. These are not fun conversations for sure, but they're important ones to have.

SPEAKER_03 24:06

I have a question for you because I've seen this come up in our research. Like obviously, for the average person, a lawyer might be expensive to do this, but there are apps that you can do it on. Is there a difference in quality if you're going through an app and you're just, you know, answering the questions here and signing it that way? Is it still as ironclad as having a lawyer draw at us?

SPEAKER_02 24:24

So I really like Helloprenup for very simple um prenups. Also, you can draft one using Helloprenup and take it to a lawyer too, which saves a lot of the back and forth. You never want to like brainstorm with a lawyer. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Yeah. You know, my lawyer friends would be like, well.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

Yeah. I've made so many mistakes talking to my lawyer about my feelings and then seeing the bill later. So that's just smart to iron out what you want it to say as cost-effectively as possible. But Hellopreneup will do it all in, probably for 2K. Um, if they also include the soup to nuts version, which is having independent lawyers for each side. So I think it's about 600 bucks for your draft and then 700 bucks each to get a lawyer on each side to take a look at it.

SPEAKER_03 25:20

Maybe something that you can do together, where you're like, we're answering these as a you it makes you feel more of a unit where you're like, let's answer these questions together on what we both on what we both want. And instead of attention. It might feel intimidating to be like, I got a lawyer to do this or to do that. And it's like, whoa, yeah, you know, it's a lot more casual now that you can just do it on your phone. Yeah. And it's a really important conversation.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

Like, pay attention during that questionnaire, too, because these little clues are some things that you're gonna want to know before you get married, of course. If you have a more complicated situation, like in the scenarios that we talked about with owning a business or, you know, having a board for your business or having a big family company or an inheritance that's coming up, then you're gonna wanna hire an old then you're gonna wanna hire a lawyer outside of the app. And that's potentially gonna run you like five to 10k.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Can you do it lawyerless? Like, is there like a poor man's version of the brain up that you could do? I mean, you know, you kind of like I guess see in movies people like draft up these things and each person signs it. What actually makes it legal and binding? Is that having a lawyer there or can something be legal and binding if you know you and I just sit together and be like, okay, well, let's do this and say this and sign it?

SPEAKER_02 26:30

You have to have a lawyer. I know those ones on a napkin are romantic. Yeah. Out of a movie. Yeah. The lawyer uh finalizes it on both sides and having your own independent lawyer. Okay. So important.

SPEAKER_03 26:43

Let's say there's women out there, speaking from experience, I did not get a prenup. Is it too late? And what can we do to kind of protect our financial future? It's not too late.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

Uh, you'll want to look at a post-nuptial agreement, which is essentially the same thing, but after marriage, or you can look into some different financial engineering around a will. Do you guys have a will at trust? So we should. Yes. Yes, definitely. You if you have a baby.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

So yeah, for sure. You want to, and my husband and I did this actually like the day before I gave birth. And it was crazy. You have to think about, you know, if something happens to you, yes, who's gonna be the guardian? All these like not fun conversations, but it's important to just get on the same page about what that is, advanced directives, like what do you want to happen? All these types of things. Yeah. Property titling, all the sad stuff, beneficiary stuff.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

I know this um I know, all the sad stuff, but it's so necessary. Yeah, business idea for somebody, like have a summer camp where you can like go with your partner for like a week. Yeah, you do all the paperwork, talk about all the things. There's like a therapist there, you drink some wine, like you know, you have a date night, everybody feels good, and you get all that shit out of the way there really quick.

SPEAKER_03 27:57

It's like, you know, those are tough conversations, I guess. Especially if you have kids.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

Yeah. Yeah. You know, you can look into a a post-nuptial if you want, and it just depends on what your goals are. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:10

Well, it's good to know that people who are already married and maybe listening and are like, oh, I messed up, but you can still go back and get a post-nup, which we'll have the same stuff as a prenup, right? It's just delight.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

That's why interesting conversations, again, you you think you know somebody so so well, but until you go through that questionnaire on hello prenup or whatever, and go through all of the nitty-gritty. Yeah, you really just and maybe all of the answers that you have or you do together are exactly as you imagined. Amazing. I love that for you. Yeah. And maybe it's not, in which case, we're breaking up the wedding.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Yeah, we'll be at the the three of us will be at the top of the aisle, like new. Um, but you also mentioned pulling a credit score on that person. Like we stock them, you know, like before we go on a first date. What other kind of financial stalking should we be doing besides just the credit score when we first get into relationships? So maybe not even, you know, we're getting engaged yet, but even before.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

Do you know whose name is on all the utility bills?

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Mine. Okay. A lot of the things are in my name by default, but is that something that you should be like talk about just vis-a-vis your credit score.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

You know, and so this ends up happening, you know, fast forward to women in particular who are stepping out of the workforce. And if, God forbid they go through a divorce, all of the bills were under their partner's name. They didn't rack up a credit score. Or if the bills were under your name but they weren't being paid without your knowledge, then that ruins your credit score. And so you're building your credit history, which is kind of the most financial, one of the most important financial numbers that you have. It's tied to the interest rate on any loan that you get. So your mortgage, a business loan, you know, it's based on you'll get a lower rate if your credit score is higher. And so you want to just protect that. And one of the ways to accumulate great credit is on time payment history. And so if you're paying the bills on time, uh, but your name isn't on them, then you're gonna want to take advantage of that on-time payment history too.

SPEAKER_03 30:21

Is it a red flag if your partner doesn't want to sign a prenup? I think it's not a red flag.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

It's just a beige flag. Really understand why. What's the underlying reason for that? Is it just because they want control? Is it because they say, just trust me, it's gonna be fine. This feels like this is planning for divorce or divorce insurance and I don't like it. I that's not an adult conversation. That is something else under the surface. But if they just want more research or if they want to do their own homework or listen to the podcast on their own, then I think that's fine. I think it's it's not a deadline, right? Allow somebody the time and space to digest this type of conversation on their own. It brings up a lot of feelings for sure. But at the end of the day, this is having a healthy relationship around one of the most taboo topics there is, which is money. You know, we'll talk about everything before we talk about money typically. And so you guys can think you're really, really close and you've talked about your deepest, darkest secrets and all of your trauma and whatever. But have you talked about financial infidelity? Do they owe somebody money that you don't know about? Uh, you know, what is in their credit report? What are their assets? What are their liabilities really? Like, have you seen their brokerage account? Have you seen their bank account? And so that's just taking that intimacy up a notch. And this conversation around prenups should be very collaborative. The biggest red flag of a prenup is having a one-sided document, right? That protects one side more than the other. And as we're building empires together now, it's not that old paradigm of one rich person, one person who's marrying that person for the money. Yeah. You know, we're both building and working, and potentially one of us is going to step out of the workforce. And what does that look like?

SPEAKER_03 32:23

And how can we protect ourselves around that too? Okay, what are some green flags to look out for when it's the wording? I mean, I think you said a lot about it being collaborative and not one-sided, which is a good one. And like, what am I looking for when I'm drafting it for? And I think this is just for the average person. Maybe let's say you don't own a business, you're just two people in the workforce, but you want to protect what you're making. What am I looking for? And what should I absolutely have covered?

SPEAKER_02 32:50

If you have debt, if your significant other has debt, you want to make sure that you have that covered. So what ends up happening sometimes with debt is that there's commingling. So if somebody's paying that debt off from a joint account, then that can become messy. Yeah. So just clarify that up front. Think about spousal support too. This is an important time to think about that. Again, not in the heat of a fight or icky divorce or have a courtroom judge decide what 10 years of you raising your family meant. Yeah. And so decide those types of things in advance. Those are the most good important things to come on the same page about.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

And so if you're marrying into money, the dream. No kidding. If you're marrying into money, what are some of the things? And of course, they're maybe demanding a prenup as well. What are some of the things that you can kind of get, if you will?

SPEAKER_02 33:44

So three things if you are getting pressured by a rich family to sign a prenup. The first one is to have your own independent lawyer, not the lawyer that they recommend, not like our family friend, not, you know, their recommendation, your own lawyer. The second thing is to make sure you really read through this carefully and you understand the document, even with your lawyer that you are signing. What are the agreements they're coming up with? And what are you okay with and what are you not? The third thing is remember that all of those clauses that are in that prenup are negotiable, every single one. And don't let anybody tell you that they're not negotiable because they absolutely are. Nothing in a prenup is standard. The whole point of a prenup is that it's your standard, not the law's standard, because you default to what that state law is if you don't have your own prenup. So absolutely nothing is standard. Everything is customizable. So just remember that you can negotiate and you should negotiate if you have a family pressuring. It's individualized for each person.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Absolutely. And I know you mentioned earlier, just out of curiosity, you know, you said there are, for instance, for instance, visitation clauses in some prenups. If you're marrying into such a family, for example, and there are gonna be children in the future, is that also something that you can stipulate? Like, you know, the kids will, you know, still have access to their grandparents or visit a certain amount of time or something like that?

SPEAKER_02 35:14

I don't think you can control people in these types of documents. People try all the time around this, but it it's really intended to protect assets, property, and debt. And the stuff that gets cute is is really fun to talk about. And sometimes you can feel like that's an obligation that must be signed, but it doesn't need to be.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

That would be my dad's clause in like any prenop is like I will see my grandkids every summer for six months. Like, you can have them dad.

SPEAKER_02 35:44

But also remember that it's not just in the case of divorce, it's in the case of death too. So yeah, we are focusing on divorce. Well, you know, neither of them are fun to think about or talk about, but especially when they're kids involved, you want to think about what happens in the worst case scenario. And in a lot of states, there's a division that's automatic around a third to a half of the other person's uh estate, and not you don't even need to call it that, but what they own.

SPEAKER_03 36:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

And so even if you have a will that says, hey, all of my stuff is gonna go to my kids, but you don't have a prenup, then that could potentially get contested by the surviving spouse. So you just want to make sure that all of these documents are in order, uh, from a will to the advanced directive, trust, prenup, all the things. Oh snob.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

I'm late and I'm in camp. I'm holding out for the summer camp.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

Just invent it. They go to summer camp and drink wine and make popsicle with them, sign prenups. That's what we're gonna do. To me, so many women have been blindsided by terrible situations. Also, so many women have not been blindsided by terrible situations, but a just in case, a fuck you money, a parachute fund.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

Parachute fund always important.

SPEAKER_02 37:01

Oh, yeah, that's only a parachute fund. Tell me, tell me more that like that terminology again. Yeah, you know, it's just reframing for whatever makes sense for you to know that you have your own back, no matter what happens. And I think this is a conversation, this is not a secret account situation. You should talk about it. And I think your partner should want you to have your own money and also want you to have your own back. Right. I think that there's a balance in any relationship, right? Between being dependent, which is like codependent, we don't want all that, independent. So, like, why the heck are we even in a relationship? And intradependent. So we need each other, but we also want our own space to have our back. And our partner in a healthy relationship that values boundaries and agreements should want that too.

SPEAKER_03 37:55

Okay, we have a game that is basically you say fuck yes or fuck no.

SPEAKER_02 38:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 38:02

Okay. Talking about money before marriage is more romantic than a proposal. Fuck maybe.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

Like, can they both be romantic?

SPEAKER_03 38:09

Yeah, they can't. You do often get that. Fuck maybe.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

You should know your partner's credit score before you know their middle name.

SPEAKER_03 38:17

I'll just say fuck yeah. Money differences are a bigger divorce risk than infidelity. Fuck yes to both.

SPEAKER_01 38:24

Financial infidelity is real. Okay, you find out your partner has $200,000 in secret debt. Are you still walking down the aisle?

SPEAKER_03 38:31

Fuck no. What do you mean? Like no. I said the same thing when we were going up this. I was like, fuck no. Like you're not walking, you're just legacy walking down the aisle just into a pit. Because like interest on the payments, everything's gonna get more if they're not paying it off and they already have $200,000 of debt.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

And this is why we have friends and lawyers and podcasts.

SPEAKER_03 38:50

That's cool. To tell us what's going on. Okay. You're madly in love by financially incompatible. Do you think though, love conquers all? Fuck no.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

Fuck no. Your partner's bank account is more important than their body count. Oh my god. Fuck yes. You can tell the clubs I came up with. Sorry guys. Having an infidelity clause in a prenup. Fuck no. Splitting the bill on the first date tells you everything you need to know about a person.

SPEAKER_02 39:20

Not everything, but fuck no on splitting for me. Okay. Yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_03 39:26

Especially a first date.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

I know.

SPEAKER_03 39:28

I mean, there's like casual, like, I got this, but like a first date is like that's your first impression. Yeah. And that ain't a good one, I don't think.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

Not for you and not for me. But you know what?

SPEAKER_03 39:38

If that is fine for you, then we don't have to be in your marriage.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

What's mine is yours is a beautiful sentiment, but a terrible financial strategy. Fuck yes. Marrying someone when you yourself has debt is a no-no.

SPEAKER_03 39:52

No. Unless it's not $200,000. Unless you're in debt. It's a tablet that was that easy. Disclose said dead before you walk down the aisle. Okay. A woman who out-earns her partner should be the one to bring up the prenup. No, fuck no. Not necessarily. What's the danger of getting married without a prenup? What you would say? Fucking hell.

unknown 40:15

I love that.

SPEAKER_03 40:16

Sorry. Because we've talked about fetting them, but plenty of people who walk down the aisle do not even consider getting one. Sometimes it works out.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

And that's great. But are we like, just is this a is this a prayer or is this a financial plan?

SPEAKER_01 40:32

What are we doing here? Thank you so much for being here with us. And we hope the takeaways for you are just consideration of a prenup if you're in that situation, just some some demystifying around it to know that it's not something that's overwhelming and scary. It's not this old school, you know, gold digger versus, you know, nice old rich guy. It's a lot different in a society where women are making money and starting businesses. So hopefully you get some good takeaways.

SPEAKER_03 40:57

Yeah, I think my takeaway is to get one. I think you plan all these things with your wedding, and everything you plan for a wedding is expensive. Just everything. When someone says, I just remember people be like, that's an extra thousand. I'm like, remember that feels like 10 cents more when you're getting married because everything is so expensive. So add that if you're doing Helloprenup or whatever app, add that 2K to the budget of your wedding and make sure that you get it done because it's just like going to pick up your marriage license. Like you have to do it, you have to pay for it. And so it should just be added to the to-do list, it feels like.

SPEAKER_02 41:27

And I think that it gives you a lot of clarity for the person that you're marrying. You know, a lot of religions will also have you sit down and have these in-depth talks about finances and values. And I think that you're not gonna uh overdo those types of conversations before you make the biggest financial decision. And I truly believe who you marry is the most important financial decision you will ever, ever make. You're not gonna overdo those conversations there.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Thank you so much. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Broadlines, a production of the female quotient filmed in Los Angeles. If you liked this episode, and I know you did, make sure to rate, review, and subscribe. If you have a question, maybe a work question, or you have an idea for an episode, DM us at female quotient or leave a comment to get the conversation started. Hit that follow button while you're there. See you next week.