SPACE ARCHIVE
Journey into the weird world of forgotten sci-fi and fantasy, retrieved from the depths of the SPACE ARCHIVE
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SPACE ARCHIVE
4 - Ladylord (Sasha Miller, 1996)
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***Transmission Received***
WELCOME TO THE SPACE ARCHIVE
This episode, we're looking at Sasha Miller's weirdly unsexy, far-east flavoured fantasy novel, Ladylord.
Featuring orientalism, totally-not-the-Fremen, and the ABSOLUTE WORST Chekov's gun.
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cn: discussion of rape, racism, slavery
Edit: we were idiots and didn't look up "some guy" Andre Norton, who is in fact 1) a woman and 2) apparently a really big deal. Sorry on both counts!
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Music by SCIVIAS
Well, for the last five minutes, I've really been watching everything that I've been saying, just in case you've been secretly recording it, and it would be the start of the podcast episode. Uh that's Nikki pouring some wine, not going for a Wii just to clarify.
SPEAKER_03Maybe I can cut that out.
SPEAKER_00Hello, and welcome to Space Archive. Welcome to Space Archive. It's really late. Um, we're recording this really late, and it's also really, really hot today. Um, I think it's been up to what, like 33 degrees?
SPEAKER_03Which I think is good in a bank holiday. Like it's felt very summery, almost like one holiday somewhere.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but it's May. It's not meant to be 33 degrees in May.
SPEAKER_03I I think I don't know. I think the combination of it being like both really hot and a bank holiday, it's just totally got me into the expectation that I no longer have to go to work.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, same. And I think that's why we're recording this so late, because in our heads we don't have to get up for work tomorrow. But we actually do.
SPEAKER_03You should hurry up and publish your super successful book so that we never have to work again and can like retire to retire to a castle in Scotland somewhere. Or we should just promote this podcast a bit more to see if we can turn it into a that will probably our our castle in Scotland, where we can not clean it and then go mad from mould and start supporting strange political causes. What's your mould-induced political fanaticism going to be about, Emma?
SPEAKER_00Oh, well, my favourite conspiracy theory is about Taylor Swift being gay. So I don't know if I can spin that out into some kind of political conspiracy, but I probably could.
SPEAKER_03I think that's really good. Um what would yours be? I I was gonna go for Afro Levine truther, but I feel like you covered the music.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, you can be in Avril Levine Trutha.
SPEAKER_03Maybe, maybe, you know, we're in we're in this moment of like research in anti-Semitism, and everyone's worried wondering about like, well, everyone seems to be worrying about um uh what's it called? Cultural Marxism and stuff like that. So maybe I'll resurrect the uh Theodore Adorno who wrote all the Beatles music one.
SPEAKER_00I don't understand. I'm worried that you're talking about anti-Semitism and conspiracy theories.
SPEAKER_03Okay, all right, so like the frank so cultural Marxism is this idea that comes from a group of um like left-wing thinkers after the fall or after after World War II, um, who wanted to bring about a Marxist revolution in, I think it was Germany, but um didn't think that they'd be able to do it through a revolution. So they thought to figure out ways of like making the culture become Marxist, like on a cultural basis. This is cultural Marxism, which a lot of like right-wing nut jobs talk about as like, you know, it's what critical race theory is and gender ideology is and stuff like that. It's all cultural Marxism, it's the left, the left. Um, and it's the Frankfurt School, lots of people in it were um Jewish and it fed into long-standing like worries about Jewish conspiracies or whatever.
SPEAKER_00Okay, fair enough. I think mine's more fun.
SPEAKER_03It is more fun, it is more fun, but um, yeah, the Adorno Adorno hated um popular music, but really liked classical music, and the Beatles are like quite classical in their sound. And there's this conspiracy theory that Adorno wrote at all of their music. I think it's wild.
SPEAKER_00But a joke's not really funny if you have to explain it.
SPEAKER_03I think I think it's interesting because our viewers maybe learnt something about many things. Maybe, or maybe they just think you're weird now. They already think I'm weird. They listen to the both weird. But speaking of weird, today's today's book.
SPEAKER_00Uh today's book is Lady Lord by Sasha Miller.
SPEAKER_03Lady Lord by Sasha Miller.
SPEAKER_00Uh, I actually think there's a copyright over there, so everyone on the podcast will just hear Nikki get up now and go look for it. Even though she doesn't know where it is, I know where it is because I said it's over there and then she went to look for it, and now she can't find it. I've been reading on the I think I think you should come back here, Nikki, and talk, and then I'll go find it. You sit down and fill the silence.
SPEAKER_03Um, this is awkward, isn't it? Hello, lovely bears.
SPEAKER_00I think I did a much, much better job at filling the silence.
SPEAKER_03Good job, Emma. Emma has the book now. Emma has the book.
SPEAKER_00Okay, Emma does have the book. Um shall I read the back?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00Or do you want to describe the cover?
SPEAKER_03You describe the cover first. Right. So actually, I was looking up versions of this book just before we came to this podcast, and this is not the only cover. No, like most books, it's had several covers. No, I know, but um, this is also not a cover that's featured on Sasha Miller's website. Oh, you went on Sasha Miller's website too. We can talk about that in a second. It's also really interesting because they've got Raymond E. Feist commenting on this version of the book. It says Fantasy for Growing Up's Lady Lord's original inventive and not for the Prudish. But she's also written a bunch of other books with some guy whose name I can't remember.
SPEAKER_00Andre Norton.
SPEAKER_03Andre Norsen, that's it. And he compares Lady Lord to Raymond E. Feist. Well, Andre Norton. Yeah, he gets he gives a little remote. I think that's a biased review. He gives a little review. Yeah, but I wonder, so this is the paperback original from 1997. I wonder if um uh what's his face gave the comment in like '96. Raymond E. Feist. Uh no, uh the other guy. Andre Norte. Yeah, and compared it to Raymond E. Feist. And then um the publishers were like, oh, let's get the comment from Raymond E. Feist, who loved it.
SPEAKER_00Maybe. That should have happened.
SPEAKER_03Publishers Weekly also like this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's been well reviewed.
SPEAKER_03I sound I sound very surprised because I think this book was not good.
SPEAKER_00But you you need to describe the cover. Oh, yeah. You're describing the cover.
SPEAKER_03Okay, on the front you have a sort of Korean-looking um lady, the eponymous Lady Lord, with her hair in some sort of elaborate um sort of like formal headgear sort of affair, and like a long green um robe, which is uh split at the thigh and coming off at the soldier, soldier at the shoulder. Um and she is holding two swords which are plot significant. I think they might be katanas. Katanas, yes, you're right, they are katanas, um, or a katana and uh is it a tante that's the short one? No, it's a short. I think it's katana and a tante. And then she's got her hand on a bit of silk that's like draped over the verandah or thing that she's standing on, and it's got a red dragon on it, which is also plot relevant. And she's gazing out into the I don't know what the name is for this, like, is is it like the middle distance? She's just sort of seeing in an involved and uh maybe slightly contemplative way.
SPEAKER_00But what's quite odd about this picture is she's got behind her this kind of fantasy city with some mountains, but she's actually sort of staring off into what I presume is just the wall of the building if she's on a balcony. She's not looking at the landscape behind her. You don't know. She could be looking at the landscape that curves around to the side. Well, there could be another person and she's looking at them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's very like I'm posing for a painting um kind of stance.
SPEAKER_00She looks mysterious. Yeah. Anyway, do you want to read the back? Because I don't or shall I read the back?
SPEAKER_03Do you why don't you want to read the back?
SPEAKER_00Well, I don't uh I'm just scanning the back and I don't know how racy it is.
SPEAKER_03Do you find it too awkward? I think you should read it. Read it, Emma. Emma's a massive creed.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I'm not. So the tagline is erotic, exotic, the ultimate fantasy. Um we say it's maybe one of the things. It's certainly exoticising. Yeah, it's definitely not the ultimate fantasy. I don't think it's very erotic either.
SPEAKER_03Um it might be the ultimate fantasy in the sense like the last fantasy book you'll ever read. What? Because the first one you read, you might just give up on the genre entirely.
SPEAKER_00That's true, but that's a weird, unlucky thing to say.
SPEAKER_03Okay, not like because you're gonna die imminently, but because like but because because it it's it's not a it I would say it's not the fantasy genre putting its best foot forwards.
SPEAKER_00No, that's true. Um okay, so the blurb then for Lady Lord. In a land where women cannot rule, Lady Javert, who's also known as Javeri in the book, so I don't know why she has two spellings of her name. But she does have two spellings of her name. Yeah, and in the book as well, sometimes they call her Javeri and sometimes they call her Javert.
SPEAKER_03Right, I only noticed that once, but I thought that that was because someone didn't know she was a woman.
SPEAKER_00No, her name is just Burke. Okay, all right, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Javeri, Javert, Javier.
SPEAKER_00Javier, Javere. Um, but yes, in a land where women cannot rule, Lady Javert has been named sole heir and son to the third province of Monsaria. This unprecedented act causes uproar, but her dying father's wishes cannot be ignored. They can, however, be tested to the hilt. First, Javert must complete the task assigned her by Lord Yasai, the shrewd and treacherous First Lord of Monsaria. The quest, a fool's errand, is to bring back a dragon's egg from beyond the far mountains. As if that weren't hard enough, she must also remain a virgin against all temptation and a number of very interesting personal gifts. Teasing and thrilling, formal yet perverse, Lady Lord takes epic fantasy into new and sensuous realms. And then the review from Publishers Weekly underneath says Miller creates a socially complex world that's as vital as it is mannered and fills it with captivating characters who are familiar with depravity as well as with grandeur. So, Nikki, how would you summarize Lady Lord by Sasha Miller?
SPEAKER_03Disappointingly unsexy. Oh yeah, 100%. It's all right. It's got some interesting politics. I think the the thing which really like defines this book though is the fact that it promises so much and then it so almost deliberately moves away from addressing any of it. So it promises romance, neuroscism, and tisolation. There's barely any of it, unless you've got some really fucking messed up stuff. Yeah. It promises political intrigue and it just dispenses with that almost immediately in the first half of the book and only gets back into it in like the last third. Yep.
SPEAKER_00Um, yeah, I mean, so I've never known Nikki take quite as long to read a book as she took to read this book. It feels like she's been reading it for about eight weeks.
SPEAKER_03Feels like I was reading it for a lot longer than that.
SPEAKER_00In fact, she only finished reading it about 30 seconds before we started this podcast. I don't know what she thought of the end of it. It was a slug. It was a real slug. And just for context, it has 382 pages.
SPEAKER_01And I felt every one of them.
SPEAKER_00It's not long at all. Um, I've actually read it twice to my shame because I found it in a charity shop a couple of years ago and thought it sounded so weird that I would buy it. And then I read it. It was one of those books that I bought for the cover and then I read, and I could remember nothing about it, so I actually had to read it again for this podcast.
SPEAKER_03Was this the book that you had with you when you we went to my parents' house for Christmas that one night? That one evening.
SPEAKER_00No, we weren't in your parents' house for Christmas. We were we met your parents in a restaurant.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that was it, and you had this book.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I think my mum, unbidden, picked it up and looked at it.
SPEAKER_00No, your mum said, What are you reading? And there was no way of sidestepping that because I had the book in my hand.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and then she read the back. And the problem is Nikki's mum is actually weirdly well-birthed in old fantasy novels. So I think she knew exactly what it was and maybe had read it because she gave me a very kind of knowing look, um, and it was really awkward. So awkward.
SPEAKER_03I think she just thought it was like a really like steamy romantic. It does seem like a romantic book from like kind of prior to the real romanticy beam of our age, but it's also not as it's definitely not a romantic.
SPEAKER_00So, do you want to summarize the plot, Nikki? Yeah, okay. So um But succinctly, because I know one of our previous episodes we talked for like 20 minutes. So I want this to be like a two-minute max snappy summary. All right. Okay, I'm looking at the time index. All right. Okay, okay, hang on. We need to wait and go now.
SPEAKER_03Okay, Monsaria is like an exoticising Far Eastern world, um divided up into, is it like four kingdoms or something? And the um the lord of the third kingdom dies with no heirs and um proclaims his daughter his son and elevates her to the position of third lord. Um, but there's also prophecy that the person who becomes third lord has to be a virgin. Anyway, she marries someone for like political expediency, but also because she loves him, but has to remain a virgin, so they don't have sex. She then goes to first lord to get his like approval, and he um sees a chance to like seize control of third province and sends her on like an impossible quest to steal a dragon egg, um, which or steal the egg of like a dragon warrior, which is like an anthropomorphized dragon sort of thing. So she goes away and has lots of adventures, um, steals the dragon egg, comes back um having made some uh sort of I say like loosely Arab-coded allies, um, and unseats the first lord and restructures the kind of political situation.
SPEAKER_00That was one minute exactly, but you have missed out like most of the side plots, but that's okay. We'll talk about those as we get to. Yeah, there's some good side characters.
SPEAKER_03I would say that they are wasted. She is one of the weakest characters, I think, of the book. Like it feels like she's just kind of there for the plot to swirl around, and she'll occasionally have character moments that are then dispensed with very quickly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think this book has a number of promises that just or red herrings, I suppose, that go absolutely nowhere. So it opens and Javeri, Javert, whatever we want to call her, is named the the son, she's named the Lady Lord, and immediately there's this tension that's set up about who is she going to marry? Because that person will obviously inherit the third province and become really powerful. But then that tension is just resolved on about page five. They're like four candidates. I'll take that one. Yeah, there are four candidates, and I think the other three, she's like, obviously, I'd never marry any of these three.
SPEAKER_03Well, like the cat the candidates, there's like loathsome lords, there's a vuncular general who puts himself forward out of proprietary, there's someone else who does the same. And then there's like the guy she likes. The hot archer who she kind of loves, who taught her to shoot a bow, who's like some minor lord. She's like, Oh, I'll go for him.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and honestly, you think that this tension is going to carry you through the entire book.
SPEAKER_03And it's you think there's gonna be like a love triangle or something, or she's going to have to go with someone for expediency and then have the illicit romance or something. No.
SPEAKER_00No, no, she likes him, he likes her.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. It's great. So they get married, she's given a box of dildos, which is like the worst Chekhov's gun imaginable. Yes, it's um, with like the most unsatisfying, horrible payoff. She also gets this dragon warrior, who like at one point it does seem to be signalling that she's going to fuck at some point, but then that never comes back up. There's a bit respectful. He's like lying, they part way on the quest, he's like lying very close to her or something, and keeps creeping closer to get the closer to get to the fire, and it's like, I'm just gonna fuck the dragon warrior. But then no.
SPEAKER_00No, no, she never does. And it's really weird because I'd say it really, really sets that up.
SPEAKER_03You really think you really think it.
SPEAKER_00I was really expecting that she would, I don't know, fall out of love with this guy who she's married on page five, fall in love with the dragon warrior. That would be a kind of not enemies to lovers, they're not enemies, but a kind of romance. It's unclear how clever the dragon warrior is.
SPEAKER_01Um I'm assuming it's.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but maybe it's the second language.
SPEAKER_03I think it's the second language. So I think I think there are two things that we should discuss in this book. One is like the relationship between gender and political power, and the other one is its representations of like race, because there are like two racialized groups in the book, and they're both done in a slightly weird way.
SPEAKER_00It's really racist, and I I also this is like meant to be a Korean-inspired world, but I don't believe that Sasha Miller is a Korean woman, the author.
SPEAKER_03I mean, yeah, I don't know. I actually like the names. Like, I was wondering if this is just like some cultural touch point that I'm not getting, but a lot of it sounded really French, like Monserria.
SPEAKER_00No, it did actually, and Javert. To be fair, is quite French.
SPEAKER_03But then other characters sound much more like like Wandahari. Is that a Korean name? I can't tell. Or is that, or is that, yeah, I'm not familiar with Korea in general, but it could be Sasha Miller making something up. Yasai is quite a fun name though.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'd say a lot of the names are sort of they're meant to evoke Asia, um, but I'm not convinced Sasha Miller's ever been too.
SPEAKER_03I think I think, and maybe this will segue on to like the themes of the book, because despite there being not much to recommend it, there are plenty of themes. Yeah, loads of themes they beat you over the head with it.
SPEAKER_00Yes, so many themes.
SPEAKER_03But like, I'd say it's kind of like a bit of an Orientalist book in that it's constant. Okay. Orientalism is the lifeblood that flows through this book's veins. Hitting you over that orientalist. So it's a very like exoticised east, and you have the two forms of exoticised east, China and Arabia. And then you have um all sorts of like mountains and desert. Yep. Um, and uh lots, and the the the you have the kind of um so it's it's all very patriarchal, and women are objects of sexual violence. Yeah. Um you've got city-states and nomadic peoples. Exactly. Uh everyone loves an autocratic ruler. Um yeah, you've got uh a woman who subverts the the the like restrictive political rules of her place, but um, it's also got this potentially slightly more Western coded name. Um you've got I feel you've you've you've got the mysterious dragon warrior. Actually, the one thing where I think it like moves more into like romantic tropes rather than orientalising tropes is that the dragon warrior is not a tall dark stranger with like a traumatic background who's really good at fighting with the sword. He is a literal dragon.
SPEAKER_00It's just literally a dragon, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, but it's it's it's basically it's very much trading on this like idea of the exotic, intriguing East. Like the cover just screams it, and then like the East is this like sexual, mysterious, passionate world.
SPEAKER_00But do you know? I guess sorry, it's slightly like segue of a point, but why it's not a romanticy is because I don't actually know who the love interest would be.
SPEAKER_03Ivo and the dragon warrior.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, the dragon warrior she never gets with, and then Ivo The excellent archer. The excellent archer.
SPEAKER_03I'm raising my eyebrows.
SPEAKER_00She's just married to him from page five. Like, yeah, it's no tension, it's not like will they, won't they?
SPEAKER_03It's not a romantic book. They don't even struggle to not have sex, she just decides to. And then yeah, she's just like, oh yeah, we won't have sex, and then there are a lot of characters who like use sex as a form of power, um, but again in a way that doesn't actually seem that interested in like the having sex itself, except for in some of the really awful bits where men do awful things to women. Um yeah, and I mean maybe it's an erotic book if you're into like non-consensual stuff, but yeah, other than that, I found it deeply unsexy. It's the fact that she gets married and she's literally given like a box of like um elaborate dildo by like the madam of the prostitute house thing. What's it the hyacinth shadow world?
SPEAKER_00Yes, the hyacinth shadow world.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's like the madam of like the official brothel of her kingdom, and then she literally has it in the box and then never uses it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and she's not really even like tempted by it, but I guess that's the point of her, right? Because all of the other women in the book use sex and sexuality as kind of a means to power, yeah, and she doesn't have to because she's been designated a man.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, okay, so great, good. So going on to the main theme. Let's go. I would say that like one of the main themes of this book is the way that like you've got these two different types of authority, right? You've got um gendered authority, which men have over women, but woman, um, woman can sort of wield a sort of illicit power through exercising their sexual wiles. And then you have political authority, which is almost entirely denied to women, and it's one of the reasons why women need to wield their sexual wiles to attain a certain kind of power. Um, and Javeri, as um someone who is legally a man in many respects. Um, her story is a story of her trying to prove that she's worthy of political authority while negate negotiating the way that like both political and sexual authority qualify one another and also kind of like construct one another. And I think it was genuinely interesting in that respect. Like you see lots of different facets of that, and that's the most interesting bit of the book.
SPEAKER_00You do, but I think I was very disappointed by the ending of the book because Javeri predictably is. Sexually assaulted with her box of dildos.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, this is the terrible payoff.
SPEAKER_00Which is awful. But I also kind of hated it that I guess she wasn't allowed to be a woman who had political power without being sexually violated.
SPEAKER_03It was quite a Joss Whedon story, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, she had to be violated by the box of dildos in order to come back and claim her kingdom. And I really didn't need that. I quite liked that up until that point she wasn't overly interested.
SPEAKER_03Because we we all knew that her like political power was being qualified by like the patriarchy of her society. And it wasn't necessary to have that shown to us so entirely like explicitly and kind of cruelly. And then also you've got the whole like plot line about her having to remain a virgin. And then after she's like brutally raped by a guy, um uh she just encounters a woman who says, like, oh, your virginity is in your mind, and then that's resolved as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that was just Sasha Miller kind of tying herself in knots with the plot, I think, because that made no sense. Yeah, I mean, I guess it's it's a good message. Um yeah, like that bit was a good message.
SPEAKER_03But but it's she also she just like internalizes this message incredibly quickly. Um, and so there's no, I mean, this is one of the problems with like her characters that there are moments where there could be character growth, but then like the issue is presented and then it's just immediately resolved.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I guess it's like when she's named the Lady Lord at the beginning when her father makes her his son, she just accepts that there's no kind of sense of I don't know, surprise, even though this is a completely unprecedented thing that's happened, though no woman has been.
SPEAKER_03I mean, both both her and her sister have been groomed for this for their entire lives. So I think she's kind of she's kind of expecting it. Yeah. But where it's interesting is then seeing how other people kind of react to this. Because predictably you have a lot of people who are just like, you can't be a lord, you're a lady. And then people call her like the lady lord, and it's slightly undermining, although she comes to own it later on. But then you have like other characters, so like her uncle, um, spoiler, she has like a wizard called Wandahari, who's also secretly her uncle, but she just tells her, and then that that detail sort of disappears as well. She's then like potentially a really great like thing that could have been could have been woven in nicely. Wandahari is like strangely protective of her and like very familiar with her and cares for her ladies, and it's because he's her uncle, um, as he tells her just straight out once. Yeah, she was like, She's just like, Wandahari, why do you care so much for me? It's like I'm your uncle. Yeah, and she's like, All right, cool, that makes sense. But he he treats it in a very kind of interesting way because like he immediately ascribes political power to her. Um and uh later on she has to disguise herself as a boy uh in order to um sneak out of First Province because she's afraid that she's going to be waylaid or assassinated by First Lord's minions because he doesn't want her to be um beer lord. And she dresses up as a boy, and everyone is like stumbling over themselves to um like not call her lady. Um, but then like Wandahari is just like absolutely fine with calling her. He's he's posing as her fictional uncle, um, despite being his her real uncle as well, in this sort of like it's not almost Shakespearean. Almost almost Shakespearean, but not. Um actually, is that that's basically the plot of um uh the thingy of being earnest? The thingy of being earnest.
SPEAKER_00The importance of being earnest that's also not the plot of the aborted.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well well, the idea is and the importance of being earnest is that like the woman's trying to marry someone called Ernest, and then the guy's name turns out secretly to have been Ernest or the lot.
SPEAKER_00Oh, in that sense. I thought you meant there was a long lost uncle in the Aporta.
SPEAKER_03Oh no, no, no, no, no. But it's like I wonder how he's pretending to be an uncle and then it turns out that he's actually Yeah, no, no, you're not not not quite as good as the original. But um, but he's he's calling her nephew and never struggles to um never struggle never struggles with the kind of tension between her authority. And it's almost like he's very able to embrace her as specifically nephew rather than niece.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I thought that was a really nice detail actually, um, which I guess is why it annoyed me so much that she is sexually assaulted, kind of at the end of the novel, because it felt like with the Wandahari thing, she was able to kind of be recognised, I guess, for having this more male political power, um, which she never gets to fully enact because in the end she's sort of turned back into a woman, I guess. Um, but I really wanted her to, I don't know, take her box of dildos, use them for her own pleasure, give them to all of her friends, then she's I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I just wanted her to do what would you do if her friend was like, hey Emma, do you want to potentially use dildo?
SPEAKER_00No, not used. I mean, obviously I find that very strange. Um, and I wouldn't want that, but I just wanted her to fully kind of own it um and take possession of her sexuality by taking possession of her box of dildo.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I think rather than just ignoring them. Yeah, I think she ignores her sexuality.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so maybe before we go on for sexuality, it's worth just mentioning one other person who's an interesting act, interesting stance on her agenda, right? And that is the wife of the Shab, who's like the leader of the kind of Arab-coded people.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, I don't remember that bit. I scan Rippers.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so she she disguises herself as a boy, they travel along, they make some. I remember that bit, but I don't remember. They make they make some like allies who are very clearly a rip-up of the Fremen, in that they live they live in the in the desert. They um the desert is really dangerous because there are predatory animals that swim under under the sand. Um these big sharks, these big sharks, they live in a freaking they live in a siege. They live in a siege, they live in like this like hollowed out rocky mountain somewhere. Oh my god, just and they get across they get across the sand safely, um, not by walking in a fancy way, but by like riding. But but they have like special shoes, that's it. And the sharks will like bite the shoes, but the shoes protect their feet. But and and they're also and they're really good fierce fighters. Um budget Jews. Right, okay, so okay, let's just follow the student thing. They're really good fierce fighters. She she is introduced to them as a boy who is like the heir to a foreign she's budget pool. Yeah, who's introduced as like a the heir to um like a foreign kingdom? She's literally the prophesied heir in that, at least like her authority is bound up in this prophecy about about about being virgins. She's like the virginal boy heir of this um of this dynasty. Um she immediately wins over like the leader of the group, who in the end um gives up his place as leader of the group to just randomly like be a servant. Yes. Um again is the like Orientalism thing where like author native authority is still like subordinate to your um potentially Western Cape thing. But um his wife, uh she is, I think, um injured in the attack by the ground sharks or something like that. I think so. Um and his wife takes care of her. Oh yes. Um and she initially thinks he's a she's a boy, um, but then finds out she's not a boy when she like bathes her.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because she thinks she's a child, doesn't she? That's why she goes and bathes her.
SPEAKER_03It's not weird. Exactly. And then she like keeps her secret. But um, I think what what does she describe her as? There's like this one bit of dialogue where she describes her as like um a little boy lady or something like that. Yeah. And it it's just a really weird kind of thing because by this point she knows that it's purely a disguise. Um, but she's treating it almost as in like it's an equally kind of sincere expression of who she is, which reminds you that the or it it hits you over the head with the fact that in case you somehow hadn't noticed, that her dressing up as a boy was supposed to like reflect the duality of her types of authority or whatever. But then she kind of basically frames it in this in in this way, which does away with the idea of like the boy thing kind of being a disguise. So kind of like Wandahari embraces her um her lordship and finds no trouble with like viewing her as a lord and these male terms, so does this woman as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, that's that's true actually. I think both of them do kind of see her as a man, which does pose interesting gender questions because I don't think Javert or Javeri in the novel ever sees herself as a man or as male in any way, but I think all the way through in the novel, no one's able to see her as both a woman and powerful. If they see her as powerful, they're seeing her as a man.
SPEAKER_03Right. So this is this is where I think it's kind of interesting because in a way I feel like her gender is lord, right? Yeah, I think her gender is lord. She's got the she's got like her or more specifically lady lord. I think it's right. Like she's got she's got like her physiology or whatever, and people ascribe certain forms of authority to her, but then she's also got this legal status, which is qualified by her um her like womanhood or whatever. And early on in the books, she she's like, she's like, I'm not like the other girls, um, but then there's also like I also am more of like she's not she's not shitty to her servants or something like that. And that's framed as her like an expression of her like femininity. Um so like she's got her, she's constantly having like her like sex or whatever, qualifying her lordship, but then also her lordship then does force people to respond to her in different ways to how they'd respond to her based on her sex alone, and it changes her relationship to people. So even like in her marriage, right? She swears all of these oaths to marry her and obey her husband and things like that, but then actually has like all of the power, so she almost becomes like the kind of husband thing, and at the end, he's almost like presented as like her fortunate husband, like her sort of husband consort. So, like her political authority in that point has like really reconstituted um where she is within gender.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I guess what's interesting as well is there's no suggestion that by her becoming the lady lord, that any other women in this kingdom are going to attain any more power at all. Like she's very specific and unique.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so again, there's a really interesting throwaway line about how there was once a woman regent, and she was the one who established the Hyacinth Shadow World, which is the evocatively named um kind of like network of official brothers, I think.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but obviously that woman has just used her power to to empower kind of sex workers. Right, right. So it's all tied up in her in her sexuality.
SPEAKER_03Right, but I think it's really interesting because the way that they represent the highest in the shadow world, then you've got the people in it wield certain kinds of like sneaky sexual power, um, although it's not necessarily authority. But then, with the exception of the woman who runs the highest and sexual world, the hyacinth the highest sexual world. Um whose I represent as like really sneaky and trades in information and things like that. Um the sex workers in it are all basically just traded around, including by Shaveri. Because like the first thing she does is she gives this sex worker, Saphia, to her husband, when she can't have sex with him, and then later gives Saphia to the first lord, who then immediately abuses her horrifically. And she's basically traded away to Curry favour, um, and is basically kind of like used. So again, like even that expression of like female political power is um it's very it's very like restricted, and the nature of political power seems to also be a power specifically over women.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because I was gonna ask actually, what do you make of the other central women in the novel? Because I guess we have Sapia, who's this employee of the high sense. Yeah. Uh who else do we have? We have Chimoko. Chimoko, who's the maid, um Javeri's maid. We also have Seniznan, who is the young wife of the First Lord, and we have um her sister, whose name I've totally forgotten. She is her sister called Seniznan. Seniznan is her sister, and the young wife of the first lord is called.
SPEAKER_02Do you remember no, she's pretty cool?
SPEAKER_00She's a cool character. No, sorry, she is called Seniznan, and the sister of Shaberi is called Nal Pei.
SPEAKER_03Her scheming pervert sister.
SPEAKER_00So, yeah, what do we make of these other women? Because I guess all of those women actually are defined by their sexual roles.
SPEAKER_03Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like a hundred percent.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, like totally. So, I mean, shall we go through them one by one and say what we think?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so we have well, let's start with Saphia.
SPEAKER_03Okay, what do you think, Sapia?
SPEAKER_00So I think Sapia is a great character. So Saphia is the employee of the Hyacinth Shadow World who is hired by Javeri.
SPEAKER_03Um she's supposed to be a particularly beautiful and accomplished sex worker.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think she's portrayed actually as quite clever, I thought, quite resourceful. Um she has a really horrible storyline and she ends up losing her looks um through various horrible things happening to her. But even when she doesn't have her beauty, she's still able to kind of operate in a really savvy political way. So I thought she was really well done. I kind of wanted her to be the main character, maybe. I thought, yeah, she's really interesting.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, she's really interesting because she's trained away to First Lord um in order to placate him, and for a bit minute is able to like coax him to have an erection, have sex with him and stuff. Yeah, which is meant to be like this amazing thing which she's done. And then eventually I think she helps um Sen not Senna's nan, uh Chimoko. So there's a bit with Chimoko which we'll talk about, but she helps Chimoko in a way that the First Lord doesn't like. Yeah. And she ends up being punished by First Lord. And it's kind of interesting because you have that moment of like real agency for her. Yeah. But then she's taken by First Lord and brutalized by First Lord's guards and raped by them, and then cast out to die in a dung heap. So you then have this complete striffing away of her agency and turning her into basically an object. Um, I think I think First Lord even says something um which evokes the idea of having her status changed to that of an object, but I can't remember what it is. I think he just says, like throw her out with the rest of the trash or something like that. And then after that, she's then involved in a plot to um abduct First Lord's supposed child, um, and in the end brings him um to Javeri in time to for him to like uh inherit the throne from First Lord and inaugurate this like a new political era or whatever. But it's interesting because she has this like this like woman's power, but then she's ultimately that power is ultimately shown to be entirely dependent on the um goodwill of men by virtue of the political power, specifically not just the gendered power, but specifically the political power they we wield, because first lord like you know orders his soldiers to like gang rape her and throw her out and things like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but I think what's interesting about her is she goes through all of that, and then after she's had all of her female power taken away, she actually still does retain power and she becomes a really important instrument of I guess like politics going forwards because she saves this child and then kind of brings the child um to the palace at a key moment.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and Javeri ends up rewarding her with large sums of money.
SPEAKER_00So she's which again is quite a male reward.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so this is interesting actually because um so she's rewarded with large sums of money so that she can go and set up her own Hyacinth Shadow World um house. So she's given a measure of power over woman. So, like you said, it is quite a male reward in that respect, and she can become a mistress, whatever her name is, kind of character.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I guess it's sort of half the yeah.
SPEAKER_03There's also there's also a really interesting thing that um she starts up a she she um becomes partnered to um this Yuna character after escaping, who's a member of like the sort of untouchable caste um of the society. And uh the untouchable cast person rescues her and takes her back to the highest in the shadow world and helps, where she's nursed back to health. And um then in the course of like planning to abduct the child, she disguises this untouchable person as like a more well-to-do person, and that involves like cutting his hair and giving him a wash and things like that. And then eventually she tries to thank him, first of all, by um paying him back with the only currency, there's something like it's the only currency she has. Um, so she basically has sex with him, but then he's revealed to be a eunuch, and then they have sex in like a different way, and the scene ends with her reflecting on how like she's found kind of something in him that is okay because she doesn't ever want to conventionally have sex with men again. Um and it's and it's kind of interesting because on the one hand, she is she starts out by trying to trade herself away to a man, so she's like being used as um chattel for a man, basically. But by the end of it, she's sort of like I think there's some comment which implies that the the untouchable guy doesn't know that she doesn't really care for him but just feels comfortable for him, so she ends up kind of using a man um for her own gain, even in that. And uh, there's something actually that I really liked about that because it's really messy, because they maybe find different things in each other from one another, but they both find a kind of humanizing influence on their life in each other, and that sort of tension and messiness is just left to stand, and it's actually one of the best bits of the book, and I feel like she should have allowed that relationship to grow more gradually.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely, because I think Safi is actually probably one of the most subversive, in a way, characters, probably one of the strongest characters. Um what about Chimoko, the maid? Because Chimoko, I think, is so you have this maid who is quite a minor character and then has her sort of moment in the sun because she ends up having to disguise herself as Javeri. Yeah, and then she's found out, and as soon as she's found out, she's taken back to the First Lord's Palace, and she's drugged, tortured, um, and then eventually she is saved from the drugging by Zen is Nan, who's one of the other women who we will talk about. Um, and at that point, Jimoko, the maid, realizes that she's about to be tortured and she chooses to commit suicide.
SPEAKER_03So Safia comes and very clearly invites her off onto the roof to have a walk. And on on the um based on the the rationale that like this uh lady who's been kept in dehumanizing conditions and should be allowed. So she gives her the opportunity quite knowingly to go up onto the roof and then she throws herself off. So she can't be tortured and give up she very.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think Chimoko is a character I found really frustrating because I thought she was a good character. Um, and I thought that the ending she was given, although I guess it's quite good in a way that uh she's given agency, she's able to uh choose that she's not going to be tortured, and she kind of reclaims, I guess, her own destiny in a sense. I still found it quite disappointing, I think, that she is sort of thrown away, like she's treated as worthless by the other characters, except for I think Safia and Zenitznan, who kind of give her this tiny bit of dignity at the end. Um, but I think her portrayal was the thing that made me almost like angriest in the book.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so she's kind of like parallel Saphia, and that she's basically used up by Javeri, who wields her political authority over her and just turns her into something to be discarded. Yeah. And then out of like loyalty to her lord, she kills herself. And it's it's also frustrating, like you said, because it seems like she's going to have a really interesting story full of intrigue. But what she actually does is she has this moment of um agency again where she's pretending to be um Javeri and she's doing a really good job of it. Yeah. And then she's but then she's like, and then and then eventually she's taken, um, and then she's drugged and she loses all her agency, and then she only ever gets her agency back by like killing herself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think there's no real critique of that because I'd say with the stuff that happens to Sathy, there kind of is a critique maybe of how this woman is being used by the men around her. But I think with Jimoko, no one critiques it. I think the idea is that her role in the society is very, or the the kind of classes within the society are very rigid and hierarchical, and she's very much allocated to the lowest class of the society.
SPEAKER_03That's her place, and her role is to sacrifice herself towards bearing disposable object within the field of like political power, and then also like lacks sexual authority.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, she doesn't even have any sexual power. She's the only woman in the book, maybe, who doesn't.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, I don't think I I don't think that Sasha Miller sees this as unproblematic. I think this book is like full of this book isn't critical in is implicitly critical of all of this kind of stuff. I think I just feel like she's a bit of a wasted character.
SPEAKER_00She's a wasted character, and I don't think it was critical enough of the class structure. I think it was critical of the sexual stuff. Um definitely, but not of the class structure.
SPEAKER_03No, I agree actually, the class thing does go unexamined.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think smoker is the victim of that.
SPEAKER_03And it's kind of interesting when when it comes because it's brought up a couple of times, but then kind of just disappears. But all of the women who like with the exception of Javeri, all of the women are disempowered, not just women, but specifically as women who lack the political authority that qualifies their like sexual subordinacy. Yeah. Um, and yeah, it enables them to just be kind of used up. And Javeri has that like I'm not like the other. Rulers moment where it says I'm nice to my servants, and then what does she actually do? She just die horribly. Yeah, she just discards two people. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00What about Naopay then her sister?
SPEAKER_03You oh yeah, her sister. Her sister. Her scheming purposes. I fucking love Naope as a character.
SPEAKER_00She was just like a Disney villain. It was like Cruella de Ville is in the house. Yes.
SPEAKER_03I think like Wanda Hari, the court wizard slash stinker uncle. Um not that that was ever actually important to the story. Um realises that she's not suited to ruling. And now Payne's Cruella de Ville. Yeah, and I think Naopay has like an affair with some gross with the like the loathsome lord who tries to marry Javeri. But she's still a virgin. She's still yeah, because they do everything but have sex with a vagina. Yep. Um yeah, and then later on, um the son of First Lord is sent to rule third province in um Javeri's stead, and she like marries him, and then they have lots of like really weird, kinky sex that she uses to like control him, and it's kind of presented as her doing something kind of illegitimate, and it's definitely bound up in the idea that she's like an irresponsible person and like a bad ruler.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I think she's a bad person, she's a bad person. She's a villain. She's when she thinks that Javeri, her sister, is dead, she's really happy about it. There's a sense that maybe she's kind of plotted for this to happen all along. Yeah. I think it is a little bit like kink shamey as well, because she's obviously the villain and she's the person who's doing all this weird stuff.
SPEAKER_03It's kink shamey, but this is a book that really loves kink.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, true.
SPEAKER_03Like the specifically, like we can forgive. Specifically, specifically, like, I I feel like it's really into like non-consensual sex.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But now Pay is interesting because I think so. It starts off where she maybe is being sexually assaulted, but then she really kind of goes like she she almost reclaims it.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that's it. So she has an affair with her loathsome lord lover, who she seems genuinely committed to, and her new husband slash regent of third third province finds out, and then decides to punish her um by raping her, but then she's like into it, and then sort of makes him into it as well, and then they form like an understanding based on the idea that they can have really kinky sex, which previously he could only do with lower class girls in the highest and shadow world.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I mean it's all hugely problematic, like massively problematic, and I sort of hated it, but at the same time, I did appreciate that Naope retains her power.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, like I think she's really interesting in that she's not dealt any sort of real actual political authority, but she manages to achieve a great deal of power. And what I disliked at the end is that like the thing that they've been having kinky sex on, which she really likes, is this weird like platform that she's like tied down to. The platform is tied down to, and she's like, Oh, this is uncomfortable, let's put some cushions on it and stuff like that. Um, but it turns out that what it actually is, because she's told by the head of the Higher Sun Shadow World, there's actually like a raping bench, which is used to like punish people. So, like that initial thing that she turned into like a consensual kinky sex session was actually like meant to be her torture, and then she's like fully and naively embracing the instrument of her own torture for sexual purposes, and in that one moment, all of her like cleverness is like stripped away from her, and it shows and she's shown to be like entirely ignorant and naive. And I kind of really disliked that because um it felt like it was a betrayal of her character. Yeah, in the end, she wasn't actually clever, she wasn't actually powerful, she was just lucky.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's true, and uh up until that point I'd really enjoyed how clever she was. She's a great minor antagonist, yeah, and she was able to kind of turn really bad situations to her own advantage, um, and it felt like until that point she was really in control of her own narrative, yeah, and she was possibly the only woman in the story who was in control of her own narrative. So I hated that that was taken away from her. Yeah, exactly. And I think that made me really value Saphia's story, actually, where Saphia has her control script away, but then is able to take it back.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but I guess with like Nal Pay as well, she like she embraced the illegitimacy of having power in the first place by acquiring power through means that are constantly presented as like illegitimate and like not worthy of her and um sneaky and wrong and perverted. Yeah. And that was yeah, I know I love that sort of like classic sort of queer in the sense of like taboo-breaking um kind of character. And it was just the fact that ultimately that like her knowingness was like stripped from her at the end I found deeply disappointing. Yeah, it ruined the character for me. Same.
SPEAKER_00What about Senesnan, the last woman?
SPEAKER_03Oh, the the wife of First Lord.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Do you want to talk about her? Because you were really attached to her.
SPEAKER_00I I don't think I was really attached to her.
SPEAKER_03I remember you saying, yeah, Sennisnan's a really good character.
SPEAKER_00I think Seniznan is Seniznan and Sapphire, I think, are the two best characters. So Seniznan is the young wife of the First Lord. Um, and you first meet her when she's pregnant, and then she goes on and she has a son who's like the heir for the first lord. But what I really, really liked about her was she is someone who should be almost completely powerless because she's this kind of young woman, she's completely in the thrall of the first lord, but all the way through she's quite subversive and transgressive. Um, and she's allowed to be because she's pregnant, so no one dares say anything to her. Um, so she's able to kind of scheme and do all the things that she wants to do, and she really kind of uses that situation to her advantage. So she is the person who engineers Jamoko being allowed up onto the roof. I think I don't know if I'm remembering rightly, but I think she also helps Jaberi with the dragon quest um in sort of subtle ways. So she really is shown as being this kind of power behind the throne, which I just thought was super interesting because she's portrayed as being kind of inexperienced, young, naive, but she's still clearly very, very clever. Um, and then after she has her baby, and I think then she's expected to kind of recede back into the shadows, she just doesn't. She's still there kind of controlling political events.
SPEAKER_03Well, she thinks she's going to be killed by First Lord.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And the reason why they still the reason why she ha steals the air or has the air kidnapped is so the um First Lord still needs her.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, which is incredibly clever. I think all the way through she's shown as being this very clever resourceful.
SPEAKER_03Although she's told to do that by Sapphire, who's given the plan by Madame Farhat, which is the head of the highest in Shadow World.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, true, but I still think she comes across as very like clever.
SPEAKER_03No, clever and resourceful, and she disguises herself as like the wife of a trader to like sneak out of the kingdom and things. Yeah, and I think when she's first introduced, no, it's um no, she doesn't disguise herself as a wife of a trader, does she?
SPEAKER_00No, I don't know.
SPEAKER_03So I get confused between all the different characters.
SPEAKER_00But no, I think when she's first introduced, um she deliberately is portrayed as like a bit of an airhead, or Javeri thinks that she's a bit of an airhead, and then she just completely subverts that because she's actually really savvy.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, she's like the scheming woman who really makes good of it, but like in a sympathetic way.
SPEAKER_00And again, I think she would have been a great protagonist.
SPEAKER_03I find it actually interesting because like there's also one moment where she does like the actual inversion of power thing, um, where she basically leans on her class for infants, because um, turns out First Lord is an old man with a withered penis, his jade stalk. There's some great euphemisms in this book. Yeah, I was gonna come to the euphemisms. I still I still want to know what the meeting of the four elephant four elephants is. Um I have no idea. But I bet it apparently it's fantastic. Um yeah, but she she um knows that she won't get pregnant by this impotent old man. So what she does is she disguised herself as a high-class courtesan who goes to the prison and bribes a guard to have so that she can have sex with one of the condemned men. And she has sex with the condemned man while everyone else like jerks off around her. Um and she has a baby from him and the condemned man dies. Um she remembers the condemned man fondly, but mostly because apparently it turns out it's really great having sex with men who are about to die because they're super passionate or something, and it's this like horrible moment of like questionable consent and like the grossest sort of power dynamic. Um, but she kind of takes that on herself, and that's where you can kind of see the way that like class also qualifies like sexual power because she is a woman, and she is basically able to get a man to have sex with her whenever she wants, purely through the um, you know, the use of her wealth or whatever, which is kind of like the relationship, sort of at least like the relationship that the men otherwise have with the woman of the highest in the shadow world and stuff. And I think there's a really interesting inversion there as well because she pretends to be a courtesan, uh, just looking to have like amazing sex because everyone thinks courtesan's like really randy, um, and then instead is um not a courtesan, but is basically being a lord who's exploiting her subordinate.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I mean I think that whole scene is pretty horrific. But what has just occurred to me, because I've obviously said earlier that this book doesn't interrogate the rigid nature of class, but actually it really does in that scene, because the baby that she has is not related to the Emperor and the Emperor the First Lord, and that child will go on to become the first lord. So that is actually kind of inverting the class structure in a really interesting way.
SPEAKER_03So I th I think, yeah, like one of the more interesting things about this book is the way that it shows that hierarchies are always constant, consciously maintained. Yeah. So like in Javeri's character, you have um her sexual authority and her political authority are constantly qualifying one another, and people are very consciously trying to construct both, which shows that both are constructed. People have to make her have political authority, it's not something that's natural to her, but people have to make her have a particular sexual identity, which is not natural to her, because you see people trying to keep it intact in the face of her political authority. And again, with the kind of class thing there, you see that um, you know, she performs a particular kind of class role, and in doing so, also then like constructs a different kind of class relationship. And in that moment, you see that both are actually things that are being like constructed by society rather than something that has to be a given.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I think that's true actually. I think this is weird because I thought that this discussion would be quite difficult because I didn't know that there would be that much to talk about. But it turns out there's actually.
SPEAKER_03So I think I think the thing about this book is it was really dull to read. Yeah. I would say it's not a good story, um, but it does have a lot of themes. It does beat you over the head with the themes, but the themes themselves are interesting, so there's quite a lot to say.
SPEAKER_00But I do want to briefly mention, because I know we're running a bit short on time, um, just kind of the structure of this novel, because I think there's something quite weird about the structure.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, after this though, we also need to actually before we get into the structure, can we talk about the one other kind of like relationship of this type? And that's its way that it approaches questions of like race.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Okay. I thought we already had.
SPEAKER_03No, okay, so we talked about the desert people, but we haven't talked about the dragon warrior. Okay, who is the most interesting racialized figure in this book. Because what the dragon warrior is, is an uncle Tom. I don't know what that means. Okay, so that is a term for like um that that's that's used pejoratively for um like by black people towards other black people in the US who perform a particular kind of like friendliness towards white people and contentment in their subordinate place. So I I don't know if the original Uncle Tom there there is like the clear example of an Uncle Tom that stands out to me, and I don't know, this might have been the original Uncle Tom, like a guy called Uncle Tom. Have you ever seen Disney's The Song of the South?
SPEAKER_00No, I have not.
SPEAKER_03This is a film that you will not encounter at Disney World. But basically, it's a bunch of kids introduced to a range of American folklore and songs by a man who is a slave. Oh, that's not good. Yeah, and he tells them all the Br'er Rabbit songs, and they sing loads of songs, and there's like animated animals and stuff, and it's all very happy and delightful. Um, but basically, this is this is this is an enslaved man, so like a like chattel, who's probably had his own children stolen from him and sold on um to make money for his owners, who's basically looking after these white kids and giving them a grand old time. Um that's horrendous. It's it's literally horrific. Not good, Disney. Yeah, and this is like a Disney film from like I mean it's it's it's fucking in colour. So like it's awful. It's not it's not even like the oldest of Disney films. Um, I don't know exactly when it's from, but Well, I'm glad I haven't seen the Song of the South. Okay, but compare that now to yeah, don't go and watch The Song of the South. No, like this is not a pitch for the Song of the South, it's an awful, evil film that no one should ever watch. Um but I think I saw it as a kid when it came on like terrestrial TV accidentally or something like that.
SPEAKER_00Like a classic 90s moment.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Uh yeah, but back before people were sufficiently woke not to just show these like horrifically racist TV programs um on mainstream TV. Um, but yeah, okay, so you have the dragon warrior, right? Yeah. He is a um the loyal servant of the Lady Lord who like sacrifices life and follows her into a variety of dangerous and uncomfortable positions because he doesn't like the cold of the place he goes and things like that. He speaks to her in this very intimate way, um, like so she's like got this very close personal relationship with him, like you know that he's devoted to her and he's not just following a role. He speaks to her in like broken English, uh, which maybe like is again like almost like an an echo of that stereotype of like the slave speaking like slave dialect. Um, and then he goes with her to her his origins um in the like place where the dragons live. Um, and then he steals some dragon eggs for her and turns them into dragon warrior eggs uh and calls them his children, and then they come back and then uh she's going to take his child and just give it to First Lord in order to fulfil her obligations to him. Um and then in the end, he's okay with her giving one of his children to the first to first lord's heir because she's really devoted to him. So he then um again, like he himself is chattel, she's sent to get another dragon warrior as chattel for first lord, and then in the end, she gives away one of his children um to protect the future heir of the country, and he just gives up one of his children as well. Um, and throughout all of this, he's like her loving servant, he's also a bit stupid, quite animalistic. Um yeah, like it's it's actually one of those things where like I think if you look at my notes of the book, halfway through I'm like, holy fuck, the dragon isn't Uncle Tom. And it's like once you realize it, his character becomes impossibly uncomfortable to read.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's horrible. I think what's happened for me is I was reading this book when I was on a train, and this is a true story. Um, my train got hit by a pigeon.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00And that meant that the train had to do this like emergency stop, and then we were all stuck on the train for a really long time. So I scan read that bit.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I think it's not it's not a super obvious parallel until it appears to you.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's it. And then it becomes so uncomfortable. Oh, no, I don't like it. I don't like it.
SPEAKER_03But I I think it's interesting though, like this and also like the the the Fremen. Um, because again, again, like the leader of the Fremen like steps down and goes to and brings his wife with him. So, okay, so there's this like there's the gender hierarchy it remains intact in their society. And then he comes along to basically be her guard and for his wife to help look after her children and things like that. So you have this like foreign, you have this like Arab leader who then becomes the um who then then becomes like the loyal servant of the the main protagonist, who also like acquires his people as an army at one point. So um again you have this like additional dimension of power where this like the people who are coded as like the racialised other then become like subordinate in a way which like cuts across um relationships of gender and power that exist within their own society. So it's like their racial power dynamic um qualifies those other two kind of things.
SPEAKER_00Oh, well that's horrible. I feel like I can't make my points about structure now because like they're not as important.
SPEAKER_03I feel like I feel like you should. I mean, when when I I I say all this stuff and it's like weird and a bit uncomfortable, um, this is like a book from the 90s. These are jokes that were just like floating around um in presumably white Sasha Miller's consciousness, it's just things that you find in fantasy. Um and I think it's interesting that it that like whereas she's very clearly, I think, being conscious of um sex and political power. Yeah. Because the that the relationship with those two things is negotiated in a very subtle and detailed way, and like it appears complexly in various different other characters, it's really interesting that the racial dynamic the racial dimension is almost just treated as a given. Like it's not given anywhere near as much care and interest as the other kinds of things.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think I was trying to Google Sasha Miller. Um, it turns out that's not her real name. Um, but what I found out was that Sasha Miller, whose real name I think is Georgia Miller, is quite old. She, I think, was born in 1933. Um, and so I do wonder about the influence of that context, perhaps. And she's also she's from the US, and I want to say she is actually from the South. Um, so I do wonder about not to excuse her, but I wonder about the dynamics that she's maybe grown up to.
SPEAKER_03She would have grown up with those archetypes, right? Like she would have probably read Lawrence of Arabia at some point. Um she would have grown up with like the song of the South ideology all around her.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure. Um I mean, I I'm assuming she's white.
SPEAKER_03I don't know if she is, but there's a caricature of her on a website and it looks like a caricature of a white person.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but it doesn't it's a line drawing.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I think I think it I think it's worth saying that like, although this book is like capital P problematic in many ways, um, I think we've said this on every podcast, like the sort of moralizing critique only goes so far. It's important to recognise it. But yeah, yeah. But I think the book does do interesting things as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it it does. And like you say, I think its portrayal of like gender is surprisingly nuanced. Yeah. Um, and I I believe from reading it that Sasha Miller is a feminist. Yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_03Um but maybe one of those feminists who No, actually, no, I think she has an interesting the book is an interesting critique of this idea that like women have their own special type of authority. Um and their own special type of power. Um it's it very much seems to be like women need to attain this traditionally male form of power.
SPEAKER_00But then maybe For sure, but she was born in 1933.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, exactly. I mean, um, but I I th I mean I think that's good because I think sometimes like when people get caught up on like special forms of women's whatever, then that just ends up like reproducing the terms of women's woman's oppression. Like women need to be rational, like that's the power that women have. Yeah, and they're not just like intuitive or whatever. But I think it's like it's clearly like that sort of liberal feminist book that sees women's liberation as a matter of becoming integrated in a more powerful way into existing structures. So she literally becomes like the male ruler. Um, woman's power is shown to be like like the kind of traditional forms of power available to women are shown to be like illusory or um very precarious. But then what emerges is that women need a particular kind of political power, and then the plus is resolved by her just becoming another lord where she can continue to exercise power over people underneath her. And then it also shares like sort of potential liberal feminist like blindness as to dimensions of like class and race as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but the thing is that it does exemplify a particular moment in the history of feminism. Yeah, exactly. Which is contemporaneous with Sasha Miller and with when she was writing. So I guess she can't we can't really put like a a modern feminist framework on it. Yeah, it's like nine well, I mean like 96.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, like 96. I mean, there was like radical feminism that was around. Like this is not a radical feminist book. It's not a radical feminist book, it's a liberal feminist book.
SPEAKER_00No, but by the time she wrote this, she was in her 60s.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, like, yeah, she's it's it's is yeah, it's interesting though, because like you can really pin the sort of historical moment that it's speaking out of.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you absolutely can. In so many different ways. Um, but anyway, we should probably stop because Oh, do you want to say something on the structure? Oh, it's not very interesting.
SPEAKER_03Oh, go on, go on, say something on the structure. I'm sure our listeners will be happy with a couple more minutes on that.
SPEAKER_00Um well, I was just gonna say that I thought the structure of the book is kind of bizarre in some ways because It feels like it takes about 80% of the book for the plot to really get going. Um, and I think my other point that I wanted to make was that the protagonist is easily the least interesting character. All of the side characters are so much more nuanced and interesting than Javeri. Um, and I think actually, again, maybe that typifies a particular kind of media that was happening in the 90s, where you had a lot of, I would say, quite bland protagonists, because the idea is you were meant to be able to identify with them or project yourself onto them. Um, and I think Javeri really, really suffers from that because everyone around her would make a much better protagonist. And she also it also feels like this whole dragon egg thing, she kind of gets sent off on like a side quest.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, almost immediately. Yeah, because some intrigue. Oh no, she's going to fight a dragon.
SPEAKER_00But everyone else, like all of the more minor characters, uh, carry on with this like quite interesting political intrigue in the background while the protagonist is just finding a dragon egg for like plot reasons.
SPEAKER_03I think that's true. And may maybe also again, this is something to do with like racialization and like um uh what do you call it, orientalization. Because like she is she's obviously this character within this like rich oriental sort of um uh like world, but um equally uh she's kind of like just a blank canvas for Westerners, because presumably this was just released to a Western audience to like project themselves onto, which again is like the other side of that classic othering. And that like the Orient has always been something that the West has constructed itself against, even while it's constructed the Orient through that kind of thing. So, like again, this character kind of repeats that by becoming this blank identifiable protagonist in an otherwise like Korean world.
SPEAKER_00Maybe.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, I was gonna say I don't I don't think this is necessarily drawn from a particular culture as specific as Korea.
SPEAKER_03But I don't I rem I think I think you said that it she's wearing like a Korean No, I just read a review that said it was Korean inspired.
SPEAKER_00Oh okay, yeah. Um but I don't yeah, I mean I don't know enough to know if that's true. But what would you give this out of 10 books?
SPEAKER_03Oh god. It's it's it's really I think so. The book promises much and fails to deliver um in so many ways. And then but also like it has some genuinely interesting things. It's definitely a book that I'm glad that I've read, but I'm not glad that I had to read. Yeah. I give it, I give it maybe maybe a three or maybe a four. Because the last I'd say like a quarter to a third of the book is pretty good, actually. It just takes a while to like lead up to it.
SPEAKER_00So well, I think now you've pointed out all the racist elements, I'm gonna give this like a one.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, okay. I mean leaving leaving aside, leaving aside Song of the South Dragon Man.
SPEAKER_00Um, I think maybe this is not a book to recommend that anyone reads. I would say it's not age. It's probably just offensive, yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's not age well. But this I've I feel like this is just gonna like this is what happens when you have a podcast on like books that no one remembers from the 90s and before.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um but speaking of which, what are we doing next time?
SPEAKER_00So I think next time we're gonna do an early CS Lewis.
SPEAKER_03So yeah, so something we've noticed with our podcast stats is that um the first thing we did on Ursula Le Guin, loads of readers, listeners, listeners even, afterwards we did one on Robin Hobb, but didn't say it was Robin Hobb, dropped off massively. Then we did this like alchemy book, which I thought was terrific. Emma hated, but like no one's heard of the guy who wrote it, even fewer listeners. Um this one I assume will have two listeners. Yeah. But next month we'll get back on something someone cares about.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. So we're gonna do um a book from C.S. Lewis's space trilogy. Um, and it's a book that's been published under two titles, Peralandra and Voyage to Venus. Um, I prefer Voyage to Venus. It's it's what it's worse. That's why I prefer it. Um, I think both of us have actually read it before, but a really long time ago, so we're gonna have to do a reread for the podcast. But yes, yeah, look forward to some early CS list next time.
SPEAKER_03So we will see you in Venus.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, see you on Venus. Right.
