SPACE ARCHIVE
Journey into the weird world of forgotten sci-fi and fantasy, retrieved from the depths of the SPACE ARCHIVE
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Music by SCIVIAS (https://sciviasdomini.bandcamp.com/)
SPACE ARCHIVE
6 - Voyage to Venus (C.S. Lewis)
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***Transmission Received***
WELCOME TO THE SPACE ARCHIVE
It's part two of our trilogy on the Space Trilogy! This time we're looking at Voyage to Venus, later republished under the much less Edgar Rice Burroughs title, Perelandra.
Featuring: watery feminine archetypes, actual horror, and Lewis ❤︎ Tolkien best bros 4eva
Also featuring: a review of Destination Star Trek 2026! (It was our anniversary! It was great!)
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Emma mentions a fanfic. It's this one. She never finished it so we can't make any guarantees about content!
Follow us on Instagram @spacearchivepodcast
Music by SCIVIAS
Once again, we uh are not recording with actual microphones because although we have the recording device, Emma refuses to buy them.
SPEAKER_01I don't refuse to buy, I just haven't got around to buying them yet.
SPEAKER_00Literally every time I say, Shall we buy actual microphones? You're like, no, no, we just use the phone, it's fine. That's your voice, that's what you sound like.
SPEAKER_02Which is great, great. That's what I sound like. You know what? I'm just I just feel poor sometimes when I don't want to spend money on.
SPEAKER_00You just sit there and put your cleaning cloth against your gammy eye and God, don't say that on the podcast. Hello, welcome to the space architect. We don't really hate each other.
SPEAKER_01And for context, I've got an eye infection, so I have to put a warm compress on my eye for 15 minutes three times a day. Because I spoke to a medical professional yesterday and got an infection. No, I did not get an infection from the very nice man of the chemist. Um, but he told me to put a warm compress on my eye three times a day. And you know what?
SPEAKER_02Through this podcast, I'm sitting down and it felt like a really good time to do it. So I have one eye right now. Nikki's talking to me. Um, she's talking to my singular eye, the other one is covered with cloth.
SPEAKER_00You get you like a pirate-style iPad. That'd be really fun. I feel like you're the kind of person who'd seen an iPad, so I think you could pull off like the rakish charm that comes with it.
SPEAKER_01I really don't know how to take that.
SPEAKER_02Um any anywho, uh, welcome to the Space Archive. Um, I'm Emma. I'm Nikki. And um today we're going to be talking about Voyage to Venus, which is the second volume in C.S. Lewis's space trilogy. Uh, we discussed the first volume out of the silent planet in our previous episode. So if you haven't listened to that one, I would suggest going back and having a listen before coming on to this one. Um, also, as discussed in uh the other recording that we did that you'll never get to listen to because it wasn't in stereo, uh, Nikki doesn't have her notes because our Wi-Fi's been down for two weeks and she can't access them. So we're doing this old style, uh, just from our minds.
SPEAKER_00I read this book like two months ago.
SPEAKER_02But you know, this is good, I think, in the world of AI where no one has to think anymore, that we're gonna have to think and Nikki's gonna have to remember.
SPEAKER_00It's it's like that, but like if you're an ancient Greek complaining about like writing in the way it damages everyone's memory. Is it is it like Plato is like, oh, this invent or Socrates, like the invention of writing is like preventing people from like retaining the content of like their encounter with truth by like substituting it for the written word, which can just be repeated in different contexts. It's in the feed feed what's the what's the dialogue where he meets Lysias on the hill and Lysias is like the scroll hidden under his cloak and um tries to pass himself off as wise because he got it from um uh that was a vibration because a message came in. I hate podcasting with my phone. But he tries to like pass it off as like his own wisdom because like some sophists wrote it out for him. And Socrates is like, no, true wisdom is like an encounter from the good unmediated by text.
SPEAKER_02He doesn't quite say it like that, but well, you know what this is it's proof that Nikki's memory is actually okay and she's gonna be able to remember Voyage to Venus. That bodes very well for this podcast.
SPEAKER_00Maybe my memory will be jogged. I've it changed to say that I'm bad at specific details though, because I didn't remember any of the actual specific details of that. I remember broad themes. But I was going to be able to like quote things and stuff like that. There's like a whole bit where I can't remember what book it's in, so you'll have to remind me about that one as we talked about it. Yeah, oh well.
SPEAKER_02Um, but we were going to do a podcast in two halves today. So the first half, well maybe not half, the first bit, we just wanted to talk a little bit about uh we did last weekend, um which was uh for our anniversary.
SPEAKER_00Yep, we went on a beautiful romantic trip to a sunny seaside resort and stayed in this huge, fancy old hotel right on the seafront. It was huge. Went to any of the most fashionable parties. Absolutely. Yeah. What did we actually do at that?
SPEAKER_02We went to Destination Star Trek.
SPEAKER_00At the Norwich Castle Hotel. In Blackpool.
SPEAKER_02Um, but you know what? I I've been a sci-fi fan like forever and a Star Trek fan forever.
SPEAKER_00Um Yeah, in fact, what one of your one of your best like deep cut Emma stories about um you sharing Star Trek books with a friend in school?
SPEAKER_02Yes, and we wrapped them up in um brown paper so that no one would see what we were kind of passing between us. But unfortunately, we didn't realise that that made it look like porn.
SPEAKER_00It's like one day that teacher must have like looked at it and be like, what are they passing back and forth? Do you think do you think they would have preferred it if it was porn or Star Trek? I think Star Trek, Star Trek is more acceptable, but porn maybe says better things about your social media.
SPEAKER_01That's true. Uh but I'd like I'd like to point out, you know, I'm still good friends with that person um who we will not name.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, shout out to one of Emma's oldest friends.
SPEAKER_02So obviously that was the foundation for a solid friendship. Um, but no, we thought we'd talk about Destination Star Trek for a bit because we figured that a lot of people listening to this podcast are might be kind of general sci-fi fans, so it might be of interest. Um, but yeah, we hadn't been to our or I hadn't been to many conventions before at all. I don't know why. Um so I went along to this one, obviously with an open mind, but probably not expecting to I was expecting to enjoy it, but I didn't think I'd have like the most amazing time. And then we went and it was the most amazing time.
SPEAKER_00It was so good. Genuinely amazing, like so good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was so like happy all weekend. I think it was just it was lovely. I think, especially in this age of well, AI and I guess social loneliness that was a big thing at the moment. Um, it was really, really, really lovely to see so many different people from so many diverse backgrounds and so many different parts of society kind of coming together and all just enjoying the same thing at the same time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and there's something amazing about being in like a space that's just filled with people who are like super passionate about something. Yeah. And like all sharing and reveling in it. I also think like the fact that it's Star Trek and for a long time would have been very like stigmatized for people. Um, like I think there's a sense that like not only does it matter, but it matters enough that people like persisted with it even when it's like not necessarily been great for them in other ways. And being able to like share in a celebration of that is really wonderful. It also made ended up being like, well, because I guess because of that, it was just like this really like welcoming, yeah, like non-judgmental space. It felt like incredibly relaxing, yeah. And like you just felt really at home and just being able to like chat to all these people and then like see talks and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it was like a proper safe space, and I think there was a moment we went to this party on the Saturday night, which was Ice Moon's Vandoria themed, which is an amazing theme. We painted ourselves blue. Um, but there was this moment where they played that song Star Trekkin. Um, I can't remember who it's by, but everyone in the room knew it and knew this kind of dance routine almost to it, which I didn't know. Um, but everyone in the room started doing it, and it was actually like really moving. I felt quite tearful just because it was so lovely to see everyone coming together to do that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like it was joyful and silly and wonderful, and yeah, it was brilliant. There's also this guy dressed up as Archer from Enterprise, who could have been like Scott Bracula's brother.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00It was actually eerie, like how much he looked like him. It was really cool. So, like, shout out to that guy, whoever you are.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and there was just this moment where um they played again at this party the opening theme to Enterprise, and that guy like went into the middle and was like singing all the lyrics, and it was so cool because it was like Captain Archer had just kind of come in and started singing this song in the middle of the of the convention.
SPEAKER_00This is also great, like just being in a room where everyone's like screaming the lyrics to Faith at the Heart.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00You weren't down at a Patch Adams convention.
SPEAKER_02No, it was it was fantastic. Um, so yeah, like just shout out to Destination Star Trek. I thought it was amazing. I'll definitely be going back next year.
SPEAKER_00The one downside I'd say is the hotel itself.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00If you look at the Google reviews, it's quite it is quite funny. But like I think I think that really brought it home to so one review said that there were like this wasn't the case in our room, but one review said that there were like weird handprints on the walls. And like in our bathroom, the pipes were making noises like the screams of the damned. And then I walked down a corridor one day and just behind another door, it's just the howling of winds. And sort of supernatural stuff is going on in this hotel.
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, it was kind of amazing.
SPEAKER_00But I think that sort of made it in a way because convention, hotel from the shining.
SPEAKER_02Well, this hotel was so massive, it was like the biggest hotel that I've ever been in in my life.
SPEAKER_00Genuinely castle-sized.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like you it would take you, I don't know how long to walk from one end to the other, like 10 minutes. It was so big. And I think I realized kind of halfway through day two that we actually just hadn't left the building for 48 hours, which obviously never normally happens. And I think that really contributed to the convention because it meant that you were just encapsulated in this kind of bubble, um, which was amazing. That was fantastic.
SPEAKER_00Because normally we would have gone out and like walked along the beach or something, and yeah, it's like, no, we're just in the convention kind of, yeah, like I said, bubble. It was a good bubble.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because I guess when I've been to other conventions in the past, like they've been good and stuff. I've only, like I say, I've not been to many, I've been to like maybe two. Um, and they have been good, but after a certain amount of time, you're kind of like, oh, maybe we should go out for dinner somewhere, maybe we should go for a walk. Obviously, because this was in Blackpool, I think in my head I was sort of like, you know, if we get bored of the convention, we can go to the Lake District for a nice walk or something. Just had no urge to do any of that. I just wanted to stay in the convention for even longer because it was so good. Yeah, just all day all the time.
SPEAKER_00But it was really sad when we left it as well. Like I had a real sense of like post-com grief. Yeah, definitely. What am I doing with my life? We've got to come home and not just do Star Trek.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I think both of us the whole of this week have just been doing a lot of Star Trek.
SPEAKER_00It's been pretty wonderful.
SPEAKER_02Which has been kind of weird because we don't have Wi-Fi, so I guess we've had to be creative. But I've been reading a lot of fan fiction. Um, I guess what have you been doing to indulge the Star Trek love?
SPEAKER_00Um, a lot of like Star Trek social media. Um, also like I've done a lot of downloading of Star Trek episodes using my phone as a hotspot. Yes. Like going to the local cafe to do it or something. It'd be much easier to be super into Star Trek with the internet, like big internet, not just like small phone internet.
SPEAKER_02I'd really like recommend the internet for that.
SPEAKER_00Um internet is great.
SPEAKER_02But but yeah, I mean like shout out to AO3 in fanfiction as well, because honestly, I love that place. Um I actually found a fanfic, and I'm just gonna say this in case by some minuscule chance the fanfic author is like listening to a podcast, which they won't be. We can like link them in the show description as well. Well, we can't because I only know their AO3 name. Um we can like link the fic. We could try it, we could link the fic. But yeah, I found a I found a fanfic um on AO3, which is based on my favourite Star Trek novel, and my favourite Star Trek novel is called Q in Law, so it's kind of obscure. Um, but there's a fanfic based on that. So AO3 like really it just has everything for all your fandom needs. Isn't it like a PG fanfic. Star Trek kind of invented fanfiction. Yeah, it did. I think it started off as like a letter writing campaign. Not letter writing, but I think people writing into Star Trek magazines with like little stories, um, mostly about how they thought Spock and Kirk should be together, and then it kind of went from there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That and like who there's I I guess like the other fanfic that I know of is like um uh was it like the original Beauty and the Beast. Apparently a lot of people would write, like when that first came out in like the 1800s or whenever it was.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00A lot of people wrote like effectively fix it fix where the beast didn't turn back into a principle.
SPEAKER_03Brilliant.
SPEAKER_00And like with sending to the author and stuff like that, because people never change.
SPEAKER_02That reminds me actually of my favourite thing that happened at Destination Star Trek, which I'll mention then we should talk about Voyage to Venus. But um there was a recent scene in a Strange New Worlds episode where a character punches a dinosaur because they go back in time. And the actor playing that character was um at Destination Star Trek, and loads of people were doing photo ops with her, and loads of people had had the idea, I think independently, to dress up as dinosaurs and then ask her to punch them in the photo ops, and it was honestly just the greatest thing I've ever seen. It was fantastic. It was amazing. I mean, like, and that's such a good idea as well. It's so great.
SPEAKER_00And I got to I got her to sign, so she's brought out music. I guess we can mention that on the show notes or something as well. Um I got her to sign a CD for Emma, and it was really great because like um I popped in at the very end of the day when everyone was like packing up so there's Nike and stuff, and we got to have a chat, and she seems really cool.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That's fantastic. But yeah, so we had a great time at Destination Star Trek. We will be returning next year. Um, and you guys should all go too if you like Star Trek. If you don't, don't go, because that'd be weird. But if you do go. And you're in Britain as well. Yeah, we'll say that.
SPEAKER_00We do have an international listenership. Like we have like 20 listeners, maybe, but some of them are overseas, which is exciting. Or we're using or using proxies because they want to access their like DMs and stuff.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, maybe. Can we see where they're from?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it says on bus park. Can you remember? We obviously don't have internet, so you can't check. That's so cool. Um, okay, should we talk about Voyage to Venus? Yeah, do we have the book? Um is it over here?
SPEAKER_00Doing this again. One day we will learn not to do this when we're podcasting. We'll actually have all of the props and stuff together. I read this as an ebook, so I actually have no idea where this book is at all.
SPEAKER_02Um Yeah, you know what? I don't actually know where it is. So from memory, from memory.
SPEAKER_00Voyage to Venus. With your phone, you could look it up. Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02Um so Voyage to Venus. Do you want to do a little plot summary for us, Nikki?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so Voyage to Venus is um Is that still recording? Yeah, it's still recording, I'm sure. Voyage to Venus is part two of the space trilogy. Don't actually pick it up because you'll mess up the sound thing. I was just gonna check if it was. I'll show you it's still recording.
SPEAKER_02If it was still recording. Nikki's phone's gone off, so I can't see.
SPEAKER_00This is why we should use the actual recording device that we have. Yeah, sorry, Nikki. Anyway, Voyage to Venus. Voyage to Venus. Uh yeah, so this is like a bit of a it's basically like a direct sequel to the first book in the trilogy. Um, in a way that the third book isn't, actually, but we'll get onto that next time. But like um basically, uh, some guy goes to visit his friend Ransom.
SPEAKER_02Um the some guy being Lewis.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, a C. S. Lewis kind of standing character.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Goes to visit Arthur Ransom at his house. And um well, it's not even a C.
SPEAKER_02S. Lewis standing character, it is he calls him Lewis. Oh shit, no, you're right. It is, it's literally C. And it's in the first person. He's like, I went to this house, um, and then Ransom's like, hey, it's Lewis. Oh no, you're right. Yeah, it's C. S. Lewis.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's just quite fun that like Arthur Ransom is also clearly Tolkien. Arthur Ransom. Not Arthur Ransom, what's his name?
SPEAKER_02Uh Elwyn Ransom.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yes. Ransom Ransom is like a Tolkien stand-in because he's like a philologist and he's like been at the psalm and things like that. And like um, in the third book, it also becomes like J.R. Tolkien like fanfic, because um he starts using it elements from like the Silver Ravillion.
SPEAKER_01Doesn't he? I haven't read it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, there's a bit there's I don't think it was in the Silverillion at the time, but like Tolkien had developed this idea, he he clearly shared it with the inklings. But like it's literally like, and then me and my best friend were like doing this thing that's based on his writing, and it's like, oh Clive, this is so sweet.
SPEAKER_01That's very cute. Yeah, that's very cute. So okay, so um when we get to the Silmarillion shout out, you'll have to say.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So Lewis goes to visit um Ransom and uh he goes up Ransom's Garden Path and he suddenly remember when you did that really long synopsis. Yeah, no, no, I know, but this it's important, right? And you see you think it's like a pretty normal thing, and then he goes up Ransom's Garden Path and he finds himself being bombarded by all these bad vibes, and he eventually gets through them, and like Ransom's like, Oh, so you made it through the bombardment then. Do you know?
SPEAKER_02And this is I think if uh if someone walked through any garden that I was in charge of, they too would be bombarded with bad vibes because I am a poor gardener. Yes. Anyway, sorry.
SPEAKER_00But this is when you realize that the setup in the first book where Ransom's in with the El Dillo and stuff like that, has um really kicked up a notch and uh the fight for Earth has begun. Ooh, excitement. Yeah. So um Ransom is basically like, hey Lewis, I've got to go away for a bit. Um can you like look after my house and I don't know, give everyone some sort of excuse why I'm gone. I don't remember the details here because I read the book ages again and I don't mind it. Um but basically then like a space capture comes down and ransom climbs into it, it's a bit coffin-like, and he flies off, and he's been sent by the Eldilla to go to Venus, where basically he has to um try and stop the fall of Venus's Eve in order to kind of win over this new planet and new life on the planet for Meleldil rather than allowing it to be corrupted. Meleldil being the god, yes, rather than allowing it to be corrupted by the evil Oyasa, which is like the guardian ruling tutelary spirit slash angel slash of Earth, which is of course Satan. Yes, yeah. And the story is basically him going to Venus, finding like Venusian Eve. Um, he encounters was it Weston? Weston Weston from the previous book, who's like his um evil scientist sort of antagonist person. Is he the scientist who is the business person? He's the guy he's the guy with that like ideology of like nature.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, divine is the business person.
SPEAKER_00So Weston, as you'll know from the previous uh um one, if you've listened to it, if you haven't go back and listen to that because it'll make a lot more sense if you do. He's like this um great sort of like uh naturalist, modernist sort of scientist who thinks that everything should um work according to just like unconstrained human nature, and then he has a very low view of human nature where he just wants to get basically get rid of consciousness and just prolong human life. And in this book, he develops that ideology a bit to be more about prolonging human power, I think it is, or something like that. This is something I actually know about if I have my notes, but I don't because we haven't bought microphones and we have no internet. Um but um so ransom basically like stops him from corrupting Eve um and then gets back in the coffin and flies back to um meet Lewis at his house, maybe like a year or so later.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, can we just think about this from the fictional Lewis's perspective? So he just goes to this guy's house, guy gets into a coffin, disappears. I think it's really unclear how the coffin travels, like whether it kind of floats up in the air or whether it just kind of poops out of existence. I think it's gone through space by the L bill. Yeah, but what does that look like?
SPEAKER_00I think it ascends.
SPEAKER_02So okay, so it ascends. So Lewis goes to this guy's house, he's had all these like bad vibes, so he's probably got a bit of a headache, he's feeling like everything's a bit weird, his friend just gets into a coffin, it floats up into the sky, and then he just hangs out in the house for a year? Like, what's he doing?
SPEAKER_00No, he doesn't hang out in the house for a year, but he's like gone away, and I think he's like running interference, like explaining why this guy has gone missing or something.
SPEAKER_02I mean, that's a good friend.
SPEAKER_00I can't I can't remember. Do you remember what he actually does? Because it does say what he does in the book.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think he does just explain kind of why Rats Smith is, but that is a very, very good friend. That's your kind of I guess like ride or die situation. I mean, like, who do you have people in your life who you would ask to just sit in your house for a year while you got floated off to Venus? I don't think he sits in his house for a year. Well, not sit in his house, but just you know manage your life for a year while you floated off to Venus.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think it's also like no one knows how long he'll be gone for if he'll ever or if he'll ever come back. And I think like so you really hear about how the story went when Ransom eventually comes back and then tells Lewis about everything. And like I think you hear from Lewis in the intervening time that he thought like ransom had disappeared forever. As you would. As you would, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um I guess I'm interested actually, and I suppose why Lewis inserts himself into the narrative because he he doesn't in Art of the Silent Planet. I haven't read the third one yet, but you have, but I don't think he does in that one.
SPEAKER_00I don't think he's even in that one.
SPEAKER_02No. So why is he here? What do you think the significance of that is that he's here in this one book managing Ransom's affairs? I think he just wants to tell a story about him and this friend that he really likes. So you just think it's like him and Tolkien?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Do you think it's true?
SPEAKER_00Do you think this really happened? I definitely don't think this is true. So maybe it's true in an in an analogical way or like a metaphorical way. But I don't think it's I don't think it's it's deliberately tr it's directly true. So it'd be fun if it was.
SPEAKER_02I mean, it is sweet. Especially given that I guess Tolkien was a man who reviewed Lewis's books by um really being very disparaging about the fact that they had Father Christmas in them and and not being that positive about Narnia. It's really sweet.
SPEAKER_00You kind of get the impression that like Lewis has like a bit of a crush on Tolkien or something.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and they have I don't know, I get the impression of the Inklings that they have quite a kind of squabbly relationship. Um so it's quite nice that I guess in this piece of literature it seems like a very sweet friendship. Yes, it's really sweet. I wonder how Tolkien felt about being immortalized as um Ransom.
SPEAKER_00I actually would love to know that and we should look that up before we do the next thing. Because by by the next book, Ransom has become like this Christ figure.
SPEAKER_02That's so weird. I mean, if I'm thinking about my closest friends, I just can't imagine writing a book where they become Christ figures.
SPEAKER_01I mean, no offense. Um it's a bit strange. I mean, not at all, but like Christ.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um so like what shall we just go through the story of the book?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I guess so I I struggled a lot with this book actually, because it's boring. It's not I've really liked it. It's really boring. Um this opening where Lewis is like sorry, I've got a bit of a scratchy throat, where Lewis is kind of um walking up to Ransom's house. I don't know how many pages it is, I think it's only about five pages, but I started reading that about 20 times. I just couldn't get through it because it was boring. And I'm saying this as someone who loves Nania, loves C.S. Lewis, um, but this was boring. And then even when he gets to Venus, it's boring. Like nothing happens. He just talks to this woman for a long period of time, then he talks to Western for a long period of time, and that's it. That's the plot. They're just having a chat.
SPEAKER_00That's that's genuinely not okay.
SPEAKER_02Well, what's your take on it, then Nicky?
SPEAKER_00So he starts up, so it's it's a retelling of um like the fall of humanity, but averted.
SPEAKER_01Um and that's Yeah, but in a very dull way. No, it's not dull at all.
SPEAKER_00But there's this really great bit of dialogue near the end where um Ransom's like, Melelda, you want me to come here and basically just like it it turns out that he has to stop the fall by killing the person who's trying to corrupt Eve. And it's just like, Melelda, is this really how it works? Like, are you saying that humanity's fall could have been a void instead of an elephant who just like stepped on the serpent? And it turns out that that's actually kind of how how it is supposed to work here. Because he's been caught, he's been called to um Paralandra, um which is Venus. Which is Venus. This is like the old solar or whatever its name is. Yeah, old solar. Um name for it. Um, because Weston has been sent there by the enemy. And um, Weston is, it turns out, is possessed by a demon, and the demon is going to corrupt um someone who's known as like the queen, who is like basically Peralandron Eve, who lives in harmony with all the animals and is looking for the king who's Adam. They've been separated because Peralandra has only one bit of fixed land, it is in fact an enormous sea covered in knotted together vegetation, and they've been banned from going on the fixed land. That's like their tree of knowledge of good and evil. They can go on it for a bit, but they can't spend the night on there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, do you know what I did actually really like about this book is Peralandra or Venus is properly strange, I think, in a way that a lot of because when you think about a lot of sci-fi planets, they're not that strange. I suppose we've just been talking about Star Trek to use that as an example. A lot of Star Trek planets are a bit like, I don't know, medieval Earth or Earth if it was really hot. Um so they take an aspect, I guess, of our world and kind of amplify it, and that becomes your planet. Whereas I felt like Peralandra in this book is strange, is weird, and I really appreciated that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the world building is really good in the level, isn't it? Because like not only is it strange, but also like there's the medieval cosmology explanation because it's all about Venus emerging from the sea, and then also it's like vegetation and birth and growth and things, and then also um so Venusian Eve looks like a human, and the king also looks like a human, and this is explained because after the incarnation, Melel Dil has glorified the human form, and so all Hanao or thinking beings after that um will take on human form.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it makes sense, and I think there's a a sense, I guess, picking up on that kind of medieval cosmology element of it being about obviously Venus um and the goddess Aphrodite and the goddess, like you know, all of the aspects of Venus, um there's a sense of real like abundance on the planet, which I thought was really well done. So the whole place is kind of bursting with life, um, and it's very joyous as well. Um, so ransom, there's a bit where ransom kind of eats one of the fruits that you get on Venus, and it's like the best thing he's ever tasted, and it's all he ever wants is to eat that fruit.
SPEAKER_00But there's also this really interesting bit about like so what you're encountering on on Paralandra is like unfallen humanity and like ransom when he arrives in Paralandra, pre-lapsarian, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Um William Blake.
SPEAKER_00Ran run like in as we mentioned in the previous story, like once he gets outside the orbit of the earth, or sorry, the orbit of the moon, he's like free from the influence of like our fallen um Eldale, Eldilla. Um, and uh so when he arrives on Venus, he is no longer so subject to the kind of sinful impulses as he would be. So like there's lots of talking about how he discovers these pleasures, but then um he has no desire to overindulge in them, and like he respects their nature as temporary and limited. Um, and he has lots of really interesting discussions with um Peralandron Eve, the Queen, um, where he's kind of explaining things to her that like he he's he's giving realizations to her that potentially only come from having experienced sin. So he introduces her to the idea of like thinking forward about what may be and by implication what one doesn't have or hasn't experienced yet or can't have. Also thinking about the past as like what one's lost and what one wishes one could have. Um, because she just lives in this like moment of like perfect tranquility and things like that. And there's like a bit, you've mentioned William Blake, and there's like a bit of um oh no, it's not Blake I'm thinking of, it's like Milton, where um like you know, in Paradise Lost, um Satan is a little bit of a heroic figure in some respects because he brings humanity a certain level of like awareness and enlightenment um and kind of maturity. And ransom kind of almost like plays this role for Eve in that he also brings her, she talks about it as him making her older.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and I thought that was actually such a lovely way of phrasing it that he's making her older, and I guess that did remind me a lot of William Blake and the Songs of Innocence and Songs of Experience, because I guess what she's gaining is experience, which she perceives as age. Yeah, and there's also a sense, I think that because this is pre-lapsarian, there's a sense that maybe the queen is immortal, and then age is kind of corrupting her, and almost the price that she's paying for that knowledge and experience is death ultimately, because she I think it's implied that she kind of becomes a mortal person.
SPEAKER_00I don't I don't I don't think she becomes a mortal person because death is a lot of sin, but I think she she she gains what like she gains anxiety in the sense not just in the sense that these realizations are discomforting, but like she encounters the possibility of non-being, what isn't yet, and what ceases to be.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and this is a deeply kind of unsettling experience for her. So like it I think the Songs of Instance and Songs of Experience thing is like a good comparison in that like Songs of Experience for Blake is something that's quite negative.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But I mean it's maybe less like dichotomous than that. It's not like she gets older and things get worse, but things certainly get more complicated, and she learns she learns a kind of like existential anxiety that she didn't have previously. And it's kind of seen as like that is that's something that humans are meant to possess. Like it's good for us, but it's also painful and uncomfortable. And it maybe also like can be read, I thought I thought it could be read as like a bit of a rejoinder to Milton, saying that like okay, these things that Satan brings in Paradise Lost is good um in a certain respect, but like it doesn't have to be brought along with sin. Um, and this is why Ransom plays this really interesting counterpart to Weston, because Weston is trying to cause um the queen to fall by persuading her to break her promise to Malelda by not staying on the um on the fixed land, um, and is also making her older in this way, but making her older in a much more like corrupting way.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, like he tricks her into wearing clothes that he's like made of skin that he's torn off animals without her seeing and things like that. And um, oh no, no, it's a cloak, it's a cloak of feathers. Yeah, it's a cloak of feathers that he's like plucked from birds, and that's a really horrifying scene where like Ransom finds all the birds that he's like plucked all the feathers out of, and they're all like dead and bleeding on the ground. This is a good horror novel, actually. Like, there's some really, really horror, like horrifying bits in it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but before we go on to that though, I think the kind of temptation of the queen is really interesting because obviously she's thinking about like the biblical Eve, they start to wear clothes after they gain the knowledge. But this queen, if I remember, maybe I've got this wrong, but she tries on this cloak of feathers and then eventually she takes it off again. Yeah, which I think is so interesting because she overcomes that temptation, she doesn't give in to it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think I think what's really interesting about that as well is that like they're kind of just like like um I guess like Weston is kind of like Satan but out of slightly out of joint with the narrative. Yeah, because like in the Bible, Adam and Eve only wear clothes to cover their nakedness after they've sinned and discovered shame. And he clearly like tries something which is associated with sinfulness and it doesn't work because she's not fallen at that point. Yeah, and she never feels shame. Yeah, she's just she doesn't feel shame and she just treats it as like a fun novelty and it's beautiful, and you get that she's like enjoying the beauty in an actually like virtuous way, and then but she's doesn't she's not quite as obsessed with it as he wants her to be, although you get the sense that he's slowly like exposing her to these things to wear down her sense of the good and eventually corrupt her that way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's obviously Ransom's role is to come in and stop that corruption kind of progressing, yeah. Which is what happens.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and like what I said earlier that Ransom turns into a Christ figure, and this is really the book where that happens. Um, because like he comes he comes to Peralandra to stop a fool, so he's this redemptive figure. Um, he's even given this like dual nature where he's traveling through space, and one side of him gets like burnt by the sun because it's facing towards the sun, and the other one's like facing away from the sun. So you have this like dual nature, one associated with Melel Dil, the sun, and then one associated with um like darkness and stuff, just like Christ has both a divine and human nature. And then he comes down to Peralandra and he stops the fool, like a Christ figure. Um, he does this by killing Western, who's trying to corrupt Eve. So there's like slaying death, or in Christian theology, it's this idea of like Christus Victor salvation where Christ like triumphs over sin and that's what happens, rather than like paying a debt with his um the soul. And then, like, in doing so, he is hurt in the fight and he sustains a wound on his heel, which never heals. And this is a bit like yeah, but no, it's Christ because when Adam falls, one of the curses that God gives, or like prophecies that God makes about human life after sin, is that like humanity and serpent will fight one another, and like the serpent will strike the man's heel and he will crush his head under his feet. Yeah. So he takes on this wound of sin and then like carries it with him just like Christ is wounded on the cross.
SPEAKER_02And I I mean, I guess with that as well, he carries it back to Earth. He doesn't leave on Peralandra.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Because that's a world with no sin.
SPEAKER_02Um I think the ransom getting sunburnt in the spaceship, though, I think has a secondary purpose because this is obviously a book that's strongly influenced by medieval cosmology. So we have to think about ideas of Venus in the same way that I guess in Out of the Silent Planet um everything was shaped like a penis because it was Mars. Um for Venus, it's interesting because I was sort of expecting a planet full of valleys, and that doesn't happen. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um you have valleys between the enormous waves. You do. There are actually quite a lot of valleys, but just kind of hidden valleys. Ever shifting, ever-shifting islands, like the capricious, the capricious nature of all women.
SPEAKER_02Womankind. Um obviously it's all watery. I I hear women are very watery. Um, but the other aspect of Venus, which you can see actually really strongly in uh The Magician's Nephew, which is obviously the Narnia book that's kind of about Venus. Um, the other aspect of Venus is to do with joy and laughter and comedy. Um and Ransom turns up on this planet sunburnt and everyone laughs at him.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02Um, and I think that was a very, very deliberate choice. And actually, the the queen spends a lot of the book laughing at like various things. Um, and there are a lot of just humorous situations, like Ransom kind of I think he has a shower because he cracks open like a fruit and it showers him with liquid. There's just lots of silliness, um, which is very interesting in a book about obviously like the fall and sin and all of these very dark themes. He does manage to get in that other aspect of Venus, which I appreciated.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, which um you said in one of the Narnia books as well, there's the first joke. Is that the Venus book?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the magician's nephew. So it's the same thing. Um, so I guess I did see quite a lot of parallels actually between this and the magician's nephew, because I think in in both of those books you have the idea of a world at the beginning of its development, um, because Venus is all about creation. So the magician uh in the magician's nephew, you have the creation of Narnia, and then in this book you've got there's a sense that Venus is a very, very young world and it's just starting to kind of explode with life, and people are trying to find their way and work out what this Venusian or Paralandrin kind of society will be like. And there's this idea of I guess finding a king and a queen, which you get in The Magician's Nephew, and then in this book, obviously, you've got Eve wandering around looking for Adam the King. Um, so there were some interesting parallels. Do you prefer the magician's nephew?
SPEAKER_00I don't I really like this book. Yeah, I think also what I really liked about this book is that um near the end of the book, after he's defeated Weston, um, in the course of the fight, he like falls down into a cave.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And it's like trapped underground. And then you realize there's this whole like subterranean world which isn't plot relevant at all. And like has its own things going on. You suddenly get this view into this idea of a cosmos that's just so much bigger and doesn't fit so clearly and neatly into like the quite obvious like allegory of the or like mythologization of the book. Um, I thought I thought that was a really neat bit of world building. It does explain some of it later. Like, for example, he finds um a throne room with enormous thrones in, and he says, like, oh, it's mysterious that these thones are here, who knows what occupies them. You find out in the third book, and you will never guess what lives sits in those thrones. It's a throwaway line in the book, and you're like, What on earth are you thinking, Lewis? I look forward to it. It's incredibly wild. Um, yeah, but it's but it's really cool. Like maybe little tapping things in it. It's still recording.
SPEAKER_02The magician's nephew um also have a giant throne room um where the thrones are empty. Well, no, they're not empty, they're occupied by like figures who are sort of in suspension animation, I guess. Like the king's kings.
SPEAKER_00Which is what it is sort of for in um the third book. It's interesting.
SPEAKER_02Oh, interesting.
SPEAKER_00It's like recycling of themes there.
SPEAKER_02Well, recycling of themes in The Magician's Nephew, which was written after the Yeah, that's what I mean.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, that is really interesting.
SPEAKER_02So I think actually it's it's strange because I've read Planet Narnia, um, which is an amazing book, and I think in that book the author discusses the space trilogy as well, and you really can see, I guess, an evolution of Lewis's fantasy through into um the Narniad, as he calls it.
SPEAKER_00That's really cool.
SPEAKER_02But something else that struck me about this book and about Out of the Silent Planet, which I I don't think we discussed then, is both of them are books that come out of a landscape of war. Um, so I think Voyage to Venus was actually written during the Second World War. Um, and I don't know, what did you think about that, Nikki, about war and how that's kind of influenced these books?
SPEAKER_00I think, yeah, I think that's interesting. I hadn't really twigged that that would be part of it, but yeah, I guess he does talk about, he does talk about that, I think, briefly. Yeah. It's a detail that I've completely forgotten about. It comes out quite strongly as well in the third book where the characters see themselves as engaged in a war.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02But I think in in Out of the Silent Planet, he has this really quite touching description of soldiers like huddling together in a dugout. And he does it again in Voyage to Venus, where I think it's when Lewis, the character of Lewis, is kind of talking about very briefly what he's kind of done during that year and all the things that humans have done. While Ransom's been on Venus, he talks about the idea of the Second World War, and that's what everyone on Earth has been doing. And I just I think it's very interesting that this is the time of his life in which Lewis would write this fantasy about pre-Lapsarian Earth because I guess it must have felt to him writing in the landscape of World War II that our world was pretty bleak.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And you can understand why he thought maybe we are people who've fallen to Satan and there's somewhere better out there where this isn't happening.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think like an abiding theme throughout the whole book is like a meditation on the nature of violence. Yeah. Like throughout the trilogy, even because you saw you saw in um you saw like a sort of a romanticized view of at least certain aspects of violence in out of the silent plan. Yeah, of course, because that's to do with Mars. And and in this book, I think one of the most interesting aspects of it is that like he's mulling over whether he should try and fight um Weston and like kill Weston if that's what he's on Venus to do, if he's on Venus to like effectively like talk Eve's way out of it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and in the end, he does conclude that he has to fight and try and kill Weston. And there's two really interesting moments which are really stuck with me. The first is where he realizes that he can kill Weston, like he doesn't see himself as someone who's like physically powerful or anything, though he notices that he got healthier by living on Peralandra for a bit, but he realizes that Weston is actually also just like another sedentary academic like himself, and they'd be pretty evenly matched. It turns out that um Weston has some help on account of being possessed and has like claws and things. But then also when he like attacks Weston, he discovers like Lewis writes that like he discovers what hate is for because um he he's at this point he's realised that Weston is gone. There's just like the demonic presence within his body who's doing all these terrific things, and he discovers that he can like hate this thing in a pure and um almost like and like virtuous way, like an innocent way, because this is the thing that hate is made to kind of oppose. And it gives him the power then to have this incredibly brutal physical fight that deals like grievous injuries to both of them. And like Lewis doesn't really spare you any details either of like the injuries and stuff. You don't come away feeling like, oh, this is like a rip-roaring adventure. Like you kind of do even in out of the silent planet. It's like a really brutal fight between two men who are not built for fighting, one of whom is like the most horrific creature you've ever encountered. Um, and it's sort of in in a way, I almost feel like it's the slightly more mature attempt at redeeming violence than in Out of the Silent Planet, because in Out of the Silent Planet, it's romanticised, and that's where the redemption comes from. Whereas in this, it's absolutely not romanticised, and Lewis is still looking for something good that might be within it. But because it's not romanticised, and because this is a very clear instance in which hate is appropriate, it then shows up the rest of like violence as something that can't be embraced in that way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think after he kills Weston as well, he then buries his body in quite a respectful way, and he starts thinking about him as this is this is Weston, the academic. This is and it's like that hatred kind of goes away.
SPEAKER_00Um he throws Weston's body down a chasm. Oh yeah. And then he goes through this like long crawl where he thinks he's never gonna get out of the underground. And then he eventually emerges on a moundside with this like it's like crystalline cliff face or something.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And he like carves a memorial to Weston, plainly stating the facts of his life.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it's very I don't know, I think again in the context of a war. Where you're fighting against people who maybe well, who are just regular people, just like you, but they've been, I guess in the case of the Second World War, a lot of people, maybe, not all of them, but some people have been radicalized or they'd fallen victim to this insidious kind of political ideology.
SPEAKER_00Or just forced to fight.
SPEAKER_02Or were forced to fight, but I think it's more relevant to maybe the people who had been kind of radicalized. I guess this idea of Western as someone who's possessed, and I guess Lewis, not Lewis Ransom, hates the thing that is possessing Weston, but he doesn't necessarily hate Weston. But he has to kill him because this possession has become so overwhelming. And I thought it was very interesting that at the very end he then rehumanises him by stating the facts of his life and carving a memorial to him as just an academic.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because he realizes that Weston, the man, is gone. Yeah. Um, before he tries to kill the creature that was Weston. That might be a line that Lewis uses. Yeah. Like it sounds kind of familiar to me. Um, and I think, yeah, that's that's a really perceptive like way of viewing that. Because what it's interesting because Weston's whole ideology now is the silent planet is all about like human agency and like the propagation of like the human through like the expression of human power and stuff. And by the time you get to this book, Weston's ideology shifts to just like a preservation of life.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Something like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then when you get to the third book, it shifts again to something even bleaker.
SPEAKER_02Well, he comes back. Spoiler.
SPEAKER_00Oh no, sorry, he doesn't he doesn't come back, but there's like um No spoilers.
SPEAKER_01Stop there. Okay, all right.
SPEAKER_00He doesn't come back, but like there's there's more stuff in the spirit of Weston. I don't think that's a spoiler. That's pretty obvious that it's gonna be there.
SPEAKER_01That's obvious.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So there's like a shift in and it's interesting in the course of the three books that you see this gradual descent from like uh a perverse humanism to this like deeply anti-human ideology. And actually, one thing that I think we should do before we do the next book is try and figure out exactly who Lewis is thinking about and try and read some of their stuff. Because I think I think I remember seeing someone post on social media mentioning that um these people are like giving a vision of some stuff that was around in like philosophy at his time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so it would be really interesting to kind of know what he's referencing with those. Um, but what did you think about the the book as kind of a horror novel, I guess?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I think um you it you you don't expect it to be a horror novel. No, because it's CS Lewis. And it's then when you meet possessed Western. It's about philosophy. And then you meet Possessed Western and it's like proper like horror writing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Where like you'll just occasionally encounter something incredibly creepy and horrific. And I think like one of the one one of the creepiest moments of all, other than like the way that he cat like say Weston like casually tortures animals and stuff like that. Um, but one of the creepiest moments of all is when um Weston is trying to get ransom to give up. And um Ransom, what does Ransom say to him that eventually causes him to sort of shut up? Um if only we had the internet or a copy of the book. If only I had notes, or Emerald made notes. He has this argument with Weston, and in the end he like beats Weston in the argument, and then Weston like resorts to just the most like inane, just going like um Lewis. Lewis. Lewis, and eventually Lewis is like, what? And Weston's just like rant oh yeah, sorry, rant, yeah. And ransom's like, what? And then Weston's just like nothing. And then he just keeps doing this, and it like it's horrifying and it's incredibly creepy, and then it's also this like revelation of like the irrational nature of evil, like it ultimately doesn't bring anything with it, it's just this like insanity that can like bind itself up in words and actions and stuff, but really it's just this like third force at the heart of the universe ruining everything, which is also another Christian idea. It's like Augustine of Hippo.
SPEAKER_02Absurd.
SPEAKER_00Uh like sur the word people say the word like it's like absurd, but like surd is in like the irrational element. I don't understand. A CERD is like an irrational thing. Like a surge is like an irrational thing. Like surd by itself is absurd is like an adjective, but like I I was using it in a noun form.
SPEAKER_02And there's the Nicki Wicki in the house.
SPEAKER_00Anyway, like St. Augustine of Hippo thing.
SPEAKER_02Please please comment and tell us if you know the word third.
SPEAKER_00Sure. But I mean this this is an idea that also comes from Christian theology. Like St. Augustine of Hippo in a city of God wonders where sin can come from because if God is um if God is the source of all being but is also um holy good, then God couldn't have created sin. So his conclusion is that sin doesn't actually have being at all. It's a kind of like force of unbeing that like is undoing creation. Um and it doesn't like work around. Then it doesn't have an agent. It's not it's not a work around, but like I I don't know. I think I think that there's something in it. Like if you have a positive view of the world, then like sin becomes something that like undoes the goodness that gives the world being. Sure. And and that's kind of what this is this is expressing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00The the only other alternative is that you have the idea that like sin actually has being, and um, then God is not like all good. So like if you're St. Augustine of Hippo, then that's like your answer. I think it's a good answer, actually.
SPEAKER_02I mean, obviously I'm not a theologian and I'm also not a religious person. So really have no qualifications here. But I would have thought, yeah, as my reckoning, um I would have thought that God could be all good, but he could create sin to like test his creation.
SPEAKER_00I know that's like one of the worst accounts of sin it's like ever thought of it.
SPEAKER_01Actually, it looks pained.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because then you would have to say that like God is all good, but then creates things like the Holocaust. Which like it's just it's just it just doesn't work. And it's better to translate that irrationality. I I th I think it uh worldview works better when you translate that irrationality outside of God and say that this is something which is like going horribly wrong, and we don't need to understand it. And the same way that when you encounter evil, like genuine evil, it really does it it's hard to wrap your head around how this could be.
SPEAKER_02But surely God wouldn't create like specific events, he would just create this nebulous force called sin, which would make its way around the world, and then it's up to people to try and resist it.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I don't think it's even like a force, it's not like a thing that has being in and of itself, it's like mysterious.
SPEAKER_02According to St. Augustine of Hippo, it doesn't.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean that that's what that's what St. Augustine thinks. I I don't know, I think there's something very you not everyone would get on board with this, obviously, but I think there's something really compelling about that. Like if you ever if you ever directly encounter something that you think is like genuinely evil, that sense of not just like horror and revulsion, but like the sense of like how could this possibly be? Um, Augustine's answer is it that that Augustine would say that that that response is actually identifying something that's very true, like the fundamental irrational um nature of evil.
SPEAKER_02That's well, I'll have to read some St. Augustine of Hippo.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because you've got it's a very long book. But I could find the other passages if you're interested.
SPEAKER_02Maybe.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. I think it's like I think it's like experientially true. This is he gets the heart of what evil is like.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I I think to go back to this book, I think Lewis does do that in the way that he describes the idea of possessed ransom. I think that is genuinely horrifying. I mean possession is horrifying, and I think it's a very good depiction of that. I guess from like a writer perspective, I found it in some ways a strange choice because obviously Western is the antagonist, or he's meant to be, he's been built up in the previous book, but then in this book he's possessed to the extent that he is no longer Western. And I think as a as a writer, that felt a bit strange that you would kind of get rid of your antagonist and have something possessing his body, and then that is the antagonist rather than focusing on the character interaction between Ransom and Western.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I say that this is the thing which continues on to the third book as well.
SPEAKER_02Oh, good. I mean, I guess I guess what's happening is Lewis wasn't necessarily writing these books to be character studies. I think he was writing them to explore allegory and to explore the idea of sin and the idea of the medieval cosmos and all of that. So that probably didn't matter too much to him. But I think as a reader, I did find it less compelling because it wasn't actually that antagonist that you think it will be.
SPEAKER_00It is it's just a really weird narrative choice. And it goes on for the third book as well, where I don't think Lewis is in it at all, and Ransom is just like this sort of background character who has also has all the agency, while like many of the main characters just like one of them literally spends most of the book just waiting around, and it's a plot point that all they're doing is waiting around and that they don't do anything in the end. And it's clearly, it's clearly meant to be about the nature of like grace and providence and stuff like that. But it's just like you said, like from an author perspective, it's such a weird narrative choice.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I guess I guess for me that was sort of at the crux of this book, where it was very clever and it was very well written, it's very creative, but I think as a story, it didn't necessarily work. Yeah, I think you could say this about all of the books in this trilogy. Yeah, possibly. But out of the silent planet I did actually find very readable, whereas this one was turgid at points.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I think it I think it's got it's got its real moments though. Is this the one where there's like a mystical, there's like a whole kind of mystical thing at the end where you have the two Eldilla, the Oyasa of Mars and Oyasa of Breaking.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they just have a chat.
SPEAKER_00And they have a chat and they talk about the nature of the cosmos. And there's this wonderful bit in it about um everything being part of Millel Dil's plan.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it's like, I think one of the things that Ransom talks about is like there's all this stuff that's gone on that I don't understand, and this is deeply troubling. And there, I their their whole point is that like, well, one of the things they talk about is the fact that like Millel Dil's plan is so vast that no one can see it, and things which seem entirely disconnected and where these connections will never appear to humanity, um, they're also nevertheless part of the plan, and it seems random and in itself absurd because we're not capable of understanding it. So you have this like dichospony between um the irrationality of evil and then the kind of divine rationality, which is so far beyond us that it also appears as irrationality. So you have this like yeah, so you have the kind of like mad mystical madness on the one hand and then like genuine madness on the other.
SPEAKER_02But again, I think as a reader, that conversation was not super engaging.
SPEAKER_00I thought it was really beautiful, I really liked it.
SPEAKER_02I know, but for context, so Nikki's been reading uh Dune recently. Oh, I love those books. And she's been really, really enjoying the later Dune books, which uh most people I think skip.
SPEAKER_00Um I finished God Anthro of Dune, it was fantastic. Um It wasn't a page turner, but it was really good. I found myself reading it in small bits, like a chapter or two at a time.
SPEAKER_02For Voyage to Venus though, what would you give this out of ten?
SPEAKER_00I would give this book I would give it an eight out of ten for interestingness, but none of the interestingness derives from the plot so much as from the ideas that are explored within it and their weird presentation.
SPEAKER_02So as a novel?
SPEAKER_00Like a four?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um novel a four, as a book, an easy eight.
SPEAKER_02So I think in terms of creativity, if you're thinking about world building and things like that, I think, yeah, actually probably is like an eight because it was really, really good. But yes, in terms of um an actual reading experience, I don't know, like a three, it will it felt long and it's only like 150 pages.
SPEAKER_00Really short wild, weird wandering plot. It takes forever, like literally forever for him to actually go to bloody Venus. Yeah, like there's just so much Lewis having a chat with him about like the war for the war for Earth, and then like waiting around and like he's gone off, and then Lewis talks a bit about like what he's been doing in the meantime and stuff, and then he comes back and it talks about him coming back and things, and then eventually ransom's like, I went to Venus guys.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's almost like uh like 24 but boring. It's in like real time.
SPEAKER_00It's not quite in real time.
SPEAKER_02It's not quite in real time, but almost. And then when he gets to Venus, there's just long passages where he's like, Oh, I'd like to eat some breakfast. What could I eat for breakfast for pages and pages of pages?
SPEAKER_00It's saving grace, is that it's physically short. And I think that this is the real when we go on to the third book.
SPEAKER_02Yes, long.
SPEAKER_00I'm really sorry you're going to have to read this because like you could cut out a good six percent of that book because there's a lot of people going hither and thither and doing nothing.
SPEAKER_02Great. And I've seen that book on our shelf, and I think it's longer than the other two books put together. Yeah, I mean I did enjoy it. Well, yeah, you're no judge though. Um, so I guess any other closing thoughts on Voyage to Venus?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean I think you can see how it follows on really nicely from Mars. Um, and then the next book is clearly about Earth. I do kind of wish and in in the next book as well, you meet the Oyasa of the other planets.
SPEAKER_02And I guess spoilers, no spoilers.
SPEAKER_00That's not a spoiler. Okay. But like you kind of like you can kind of see why he doesn't have books about the other planets because you can't live on them because they're all made of gas and ice slush. Like that guy on Destination Star Trek told us. Most gas planets, um, because it's so cold, are actually made of slush, slush, not gas.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, which is well cool.
SPEAKER_00Coldness and slushy planet and pressure, they're like slush puppies in space. But basically you can drag them.
SPEAKER_02And he told us about a planet that's like made of diamonds and then it has like diamond flecks in the atmosphere. Yes. That was cool.
SPEAKER_00So it's like a carbon plan, it's like a gas planet made of carbon, but it's so close to its planet, to its sun, and so hot that the pressure has crushed the carbon into diamond. So it's like a solid planet of a planet of solid diamond with like thousand mile an hour winds filled with like diamond dust, like whiffing around it. And if you landed on it, you'd be burnt up and scoured away in no time at all. It was amazing.
SPEAKER_02Like, literally, really cool. I mean, if that guy's listening to this podcast, that was a brilliant tool. That was so good.
SPEAKER_00It wasn't as good as the woman who did something on Klingon culture and Klingon language.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that was excellent. That was so good.
SPEAKER_00That was literally, it made me want to learn a Klingon. I really wish I bought that Klingon. So one of the things we did at Destination Star Trek is because it was our anniversary. It was our paper anniversary. So I just told Emma to get whatever like merch and books she wanted. She a long time ago, she had an extensive collection of Star Trek novels, which she sold in the course of a house move, and it's been one of your greatest regrets. So you've been recollecting them. But um, we also found like a Klingon dictionary thing. And it turns out there's like a whole like Academy Francaise for Klingon.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's amazing. There's different dialects and stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, they're like thinking of the grammatical rules and stuff, and I kind of want to learn a Klingon. Though I think if I was going to learn language, I should learn a real language so I can speak on hot things.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean I'd agree, but you know, also I'll support you if you want to learn Klingon. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, I was just saying, oh yeah, but I'm I kind of wish that there were also stories about the other planets, though it would also be hard to tell.
SPEAKER_02Yes, well, I think the reason why you wish that is because Nikki is a completionist. If she starts to read something, she will read all of those things. So I mean she'll be reading Dune for the next like six years. Um and I can see why your completionist mind would like a book for each of the things.
SPEAKER_00I'm only going to read the two Great Dune trilogies. That's the Frank Herbert ones. I'm not going to read the so I think it ends on like Chapter House of Dune or something. No one's read the second Great Dune trilogy. Right, God Amphor of Dune there, um, which is a great book. But like, yeah, I know I like I like to like inhabit a world and to get really comfy in it and just for that to be like the my the contents of my imagination for a good long time. So maybe I do want more books because of that, although I'm kind of out of this moment now. But like it's just it's a really cool world. Like I really like this like re-mythologization of Christianity. Um I I do like the way he explores all his like theological concepts and stuff. Like it's quite a fun way of guessing theology. Normally, my approach to getting ideas is to just read someone saying them as tersely as possible in as great a detail as possible and not like mull over phrases. But I'm getting my head, I'm getting around to this literature, like literature phrase through this.
SPEAKER_02Maybe you should go reread Narnia because there's one of those for each planet that might make you feel better.
SPEAKER_00Maybe I should. What am I reading at the moment? I need to go into the Great Dune trilogy. I'm also trying to catch up on the magic of the gathering story.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so really you've got time, is what I'd say.
SPEAKER_00Once I've done those, then yeah, maybe I'll do that. What else was I going to read? There was some other book that I really wanted to read. I can't remember what it was now.
SPEAKER_02Uh no, I don't know. Um, but anyway, we should finish Voyage to Venus there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, unless you have anything else.
SPEAKER_00With that enormous digression about that we're not even going to feature on this.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's why I thought we should uh we should call it a wrap there and then we can just have this conversation.
SPEAKER_00I really want to read, I really want to read the Garrick novel.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, just another Star Trek reference.
SPEAKER_00Actually, that could be a really good one for this podcast because everyone knows about Star Trek. No one knows about the hand, like actually genuinely really good sci-fi novel spin-off written by the guy who played Garrett.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, we should do that. A stitch in time. That's what it's called. Um, I didn't throw that one away, so we have it.
SPEAKER_01Excellent.
SPEAKER_02Um, but for next time, we will be doing that hideous strength, the conclusion to the space trilogy. Um hopefully it shouldn't be too long between episodes. It took me years to read Voyage to Venus. Um, but hopefully it won't be the same for that hideous strength. But just lock in, Emma.
SPEAKER_00You've got to lock in. Read it on the cheap, every cheap journey, just Voyage to Venus, front beginning to end.
SPEAKER_02I think the problem I had with it was I actually had quite a lot of plane journeys, and I should have read it on the plane, but the edition we have has the coffin spaceship on the front cover, and it felt unlucky to me to read a book with a coffin on the front on a plane, so I didn't.
SPEAKER_01That's entirely fair.
SPEAKER_02Um, whereas I think our edition of That Hideous Strength has quite a neutral cover, so I should be able to read it on any transport. Great. And in fact, we're getting a train to Cornwall tomorrow, so maybe I'll crack out that hideous strength.
SPEAKER_00We're going to Cornwall with my family. Uh it's a house in the middle of nowhere. It's going to rain constantly for the entire thing. So I was going to have plenty of time to read bad CS Livers, but Yeah, I've got no excuse. See you next time.
