Return to Weird

Folk Herbalism, Earth-Based Spirituality & Learning From the Plants with Zoe Schapira

• Jessa Bruno • Season 1 • Episode 10

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In this episode of Return to Weird, I sit down with folk herbalist Zoe Schapira to explore plant wisdom, earth-based spirituality, ancestral healing, and what it means to reconnect with the natural world in a culture that keeps us disconnected from our bodies.

We talk about what folk herbalism actually is, how Zoe learned to listen to plants through the wise woman tradition, and the profound healing that can happen when we return to relationship with the earth. We also explore herbal support for the nervous system, women’s cyclical intelligence, luteal phase care, rosemary for ancestral connection, white sage and cultural lineage, and why reconnecting with nature is so essential in a world full of noise, stress, and disconnection.

This conversation is for anyone who feels pulled toward the earth, wants to deepen their relationship with plants, or is curious about herbalism as a relational, intuitive, body-based path of healing.

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Disclaimer: The content provided by Return to Weird and its host, Jessa, is for educational, inspirational, and entertainment purposes only. This podcast is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or mental health treatment.

By listening to this show, you agree that the host and guests are not responsible for any decisions made or actions taken based on the information provided. Please always consult with a qualified professional regarding your specific health or psychological needs. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed by guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of Jessa Bruno or the Return to Weird Podcast. 

Introduction to Folk Herbalism

SPEAKER_02

Like we are of the earth. There's such a disconnect from that knowing in our society. We don't feel that in our bones. We don't feel that connection to the land that we live on, to the river that's running down the street, to the trees that are growing around us. We don't feel in our body that they are kin. We are all made of the same material. We all came from the same place. The same vital force is running through all of us.

SPEAKER_01

Hi Zoe, thank you for being here. Thanks for having me, Jess. Something I really appreciate about your work is how deeply it's rooted in relationship. So relationship to the earth, plants, ceremony, and in the modern wellness space, what's often missing is that reconnection with the natural world. One thing that really caught my attention is that you're a folk herbalist. For people new to this term, as I was, what is folk herbalism in your perspective?

Experiences with Plant Spirits

SPEAKER_02

Folk herbalism is one of those kind of nebulous terms that can um have a lot of meanings to a lot of different people. But folk herbalism like your grandmother's herbalism, your auntie's herbalism, the chicken soup that your mom made you that somehow miraculously made you better when you were young, or the tea that your grandma gave you that always hit the spot perfectly. So folk herbalism like draws on a lot of indigenous cultures from across the globe. The specific type of herbalism I'm trained in is the wise woman tradition of healing. So that is really like pulling on the wisdom of women in a lot of different indigenous cultures. This method of healing, this tradition of healing, is centered around the body's innate wisdom to be able to heal itself. It doesn't look to any healer as like the one with the information or the one that's going to fix you, but it really looks to the body as like the source of its own healing and its own knowing of how to heal itself. So through this path of learning folk herbalism, I've learned how to read symptoms in the body as signs of imbalance that can be guided toward balance with different herbs or lifestyle changes or anything like that. Um, and not looking as at symptoms as problems that need to be fixed or solved or just extinguished out of existence. Um and another big part of this tradition of healing is that a big part of this type of herbalism is learning directly from the plant itself. And this is where a lot of indigenous cultures kind of feed into my training, where a lot of a lot of communities around the globe, when asked, like, how did you know that this plant works for this ailment? They'll say, We learned directly from the plant. So through this tradition of healing, a big part of it is sitting in meditation with the plant to receive any information from the spirit, any communication, any healing from the spirit, and learning with an open heart and a quiet mind, like not trying to analyze and criticize what's coming through, but letting like the heart receive and learning to trust that information, learning to trust the heart and like it knows what it's doing, it not gaslighting ourselves at like this isn't real, but really learning to trust yourself in receiving and interpreting the language of the plants.

SPEAKER_01

I love that so much. There's there's so much in there that we can like go off of. This is what people used to, this is how people lived. People just naturally had this relationship with the land and would see everything as conscious and just have a relationship with it and receive its wisdom.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

And we've obviously been very disconnected from that, and that could be a whole nother conversation. But I'm so curious how you see or what your experience with the plants have been like. So when you're listening, maybe even like the first time you were able to connect with. Yeah. Yeah, just really I would love to hear about that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I have a a few different threads I want to pull on. Um, but the first one I'll talk about is the first ceremony I sat in during this apprenticeship of learning, um, this method of healing with the school of the sacred wild. We sat in ceremony for three hours and drank three different herbs and were guided into kind of this shamanic method of communication with these plant spirits.

SPEAKER_01

And I and these and these herbs, just for context, they're not they're not psychoactive. They're not psychoactive. Right. They are like like raishi, or am I yeah, yeah.

The Role of Rosemary in Ancestral Healing

Connecting with the Earth

SPEAKER_02

Or you know, that the first herbs that I drank were burdock, nettle, and linden, which are all like really gentle, nourishing herbs that could be like the base of any tea that you get at a grocery store. Yeah, not psychoactive. Thank you for clarifying that. Uh and in these kind of shamanic journeys, I had um really visual experiences in which like I visually saw the spirits of these plants come to me and give me different messages about healing in my body. But what struck me the most was that after we had these experiences, we we broke out into these share groups and we all shared how the meditations went for us. And so many people had the same vision, had the same experience. And so, like, that was a common thread throughout this training where we would go through these meditations and then come out and say, This is what I saw, and this was what I received. And like half of the students or more received the same thing. That's really like when I started to, you know, I'm a scientific person, I am an analytical person. And so at first it was hard for me to turn off that like critical part of my brain. Like, is this real? Am I making this up? And then once I started to notice this pattern of people having the same experience, it was like, oh no, this is straight magic and this is real. Um that was that is when I started to really like feel bought in on the power of this method of herbalism. And then another experience that I've had that I want to share, I was receiving like energy work and the practitioner told me, Hey, like, I see you working with this plant. I don't know if it means anything to you, but I see you working with rosemary. It's like, okay, I've like never really worked with it before, but like interesting. I'll just kind of keep that in my back pocket. And then the next day I was working at a farm, and the farmer said, Hey, Zoe, I have like a bunch of rosemary. If you want some to take home, like please do. And I said, Okay, interesting. Yeah, I'll just like take some home and you know, I'll just have it on hand. And then I was doing my own kind of ancestral work, trying to work through some of my ancestral trauma on my Ashkenazi Jewish line, and I was doing some research into like how to start this behemoth of a task of like working with Jewish trauma and listening to these different rabbis and listening to these different Jewish shamanic healers talking about how they use rosemary to connect with their ancestors. They burn it, they drink it in a tea, and they use that as a way to kind of call in this healing and call in the ancestors and begin that work. And so, like, I'm getting chills just talking about it. Like, there is this way that the plants reach out for us in a in a way that is nonlinear and can't be rationalized, but it happens. It happens so often where like a plant may be growing around your around your doorstep, and you don't really know what it is. And then once you look at it, it's exactly the plant that you need for your anxiety or for your stomach issues or whatever. Like they come to us, and it's again magic.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I have full body goosebumps right now. Yeah, yeah. So what is what is it about rosemary for Jewish ancestral healing? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Do you know it has a few different properties? So it has if you burn it like you would white sage, it has this way of kind of cleansing and transmuting stagnant dark energy into something a little bit lighter, so that's really nice to kind of move through some of the heaviness. Um, but also I personally have found that it's really good for memory. So, like in an allopathic Western medicine approach, when you're looking at rosemary, it's really good for cognitive functioning and it's really good for memory. But on the other the flip side of that coin is that like I I've found it's really incredible for meditation and it like clears the mind and allows me to kind of drop in. And so I've had these super powerful experiences of when I take a tincture of rosemary or drink it in a tea, I can connect really deeply with either my highest self or my guides or my ancestors, whoever I'm calling in. It just kind of like clears the way the everyday noise of you know our brains.

SPEAKER_01

Interesting. Yeah. So how did you get to this point where you're able to drop in and receive? Because I imagine, and this is an assumption, but I imagine it wasn't always like that.

Navigating the Cycles of Womanhood

SPEAKER_02

No, it wasn't. And it's, you know, as with everything, it it ebbs and flows, and I think that's important to note in that not every day I'm like the most connected at all times, right? And so I think it's a it's a muscle that you learn to flex. And so through this training with the School of the Sacred Wild, I was doing these meditations on a weekly basis for two years. And so it just started to become, you know, the first meditation I dropped into, it felt really powerful. And then some of them maybe felt a little bit diluted and I wasn't really receiving a lot, and then some of them felt really powerful. But it just, I think the key there was consistency, like continuing to show up and continuing to be willing to kind of sit in silence and ask, you know, with reverence and humility to learn from these plant teachers. And I think the commitment and dedication of showing up allows the plants to in turn open up to you. And you know, like I said, sometimes it's it's not clear, and it's like you sit down for meditation and your mind's just wandering for 20 minutes. And sometimes I've had experiences where it's like, okay, I didn't maybe receive too much, and other times I get full downloads and I'm journaling for you know an hour afterwards. So it's I think part of this process, as with any like spiritual journey, in my opinion, it's like having the grace to meet yourself where you're at and not expecting one day to look the same as the other. And I just I've I've learned to have a lot of like forgiveness and grace for myself if I don't practice or I I show up and it doesn't go the way that I want it to, like just keep showing up, just keep doing the thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I like that. And also as a woman, there's this cyclical intelligence, right? That we that we have, and so it does feel like there are times, there are moments where that's easier, that kind of state is easier to get into than others. Totally. And I think that that's just part of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Thanks for speaking to that. I think that's so that is such a big part of it. That we don't like, let's normalize talking about how throughout the months we're different people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Totally.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's crazy when we go through a winter every month. Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Like, yeah, it really is crazy in 28 days how much we're moving through and oh my gosh, what we're shedding.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And then like for me, it's like, okay, damage control after a while, like who I was in Luteal. It's like, all right, I got like a week to like, you know, rebuild those bridges.

SPEAKER_01

Luteal is tough. Yeah. Do you have any do you have any um suggestions or like have you found any anything that supports you during that time? Oh, totally, yeah.

Herbal Remedies for the Luteal Phase

SPEAKER_02

You know, luteal or people's hormones and and menstrual cycles are so different. So I just want to like give this caveat that herbalism is so different depending on your body. But for me, like I have a lot of fire element in me. So I have a lot of heat manifests in my period, and that like I get a lot of cramps. I have a very sharp mind, so I get kind of really irritable and I get really hot. I get like red and rashy in the face. So like the herbs that work for me kind of cool my temperament down and also like cool my mind down. So I really like working with milky oats, which is the like seed head of the oat plant. Before it goes to seed, it creates kind of this little pod, and it has this like milky, like latex material in it, and that like comes once a year, just a few, maybe a week out of the year, right before it turns to seed. And that material, that like like liquid material is super calming to the nervous system. And so that milky oats is one of my favorite herbs to work with. And I also really like skull cap, which is it can be on the stronger side, depending on uh your tolerance to herbs. But um, for me, it just cuts the noise in like when my anxiety is running or if I'm being super critical, right? Like part of my luteal phase is just being an asshole to myself. And so yeah, so the skull cap just kind of calms that down, and then with a little bit of a quieter mind, I'm able to sink into my body and be like, oh, okay, like what does my body need right now? It would feel really good if I took a bath, and like I'm not so cranky anymore because I'm like listening to my body. Um, and so so much of this process for me has been learning how to support my mind in quieting so that the language of my body is loud enough for me to hear it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, because our body's always speaking to us. It's just a lot of the times it can be softer than than our mind. Our mind can kind of override the signals of our body.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. The body feels more gentler, like more feminine, and the mind can be so aggro masculine energy.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And to loop back into the conversation of earth-centered practices. So why is that so important? And how can that support people if they're like, yeah, I I feel like my mind is so loud and I'm not listening to my body in the way that I'd like?

The Importance of Earth-Centered Practices

SPEAKER_02

Ugh, this is such a big question. Our innate nature, like we are of the earth, we are the earth, right? There's such a disconnect from that knowing in our society where like we don't we don't feel that in our bones. Like, we don't feel that connection to the land that we live on, to the river that's running down the street, like to the trees that are growing around us. Like, we don't feel in our body that they are kin, but like we are all made of the same material, like we all came from the same place, the same like vital force is running through all of us. And so part of the work that I do, and part of what I love so much about this path is like this remembering of like we can learn directly from the plants, from the trees, from the river. Like we can go to them with our hearts open or broken and ask to be helped. And we can be barefoot on the earth and like feel the true connection between our the soles of our feet and the soil of the earth and like what it does to our heart to open it. I just like I've had the most profound experiences just like laying in the grass, like this is what years of therapy feels like after 20 minutes in a grassy field, like it's the connection, like once you allow yourself to tap into it and again like suspend the disbelief of the of the analytical mind, you can receive so much from the earth. I have this experience that's kind of coming up in my mind that I'd like to share if that's okay.

SPEAKER_01

Of course.

Finding Connection in Urban Environments

SPEAKER_02

And I was just struggling with a lot of grief and I didn't really know how to hold it. And I went to a river that was running nearby, and like I was really raw and open and just like crying and asking for help and asking for anything that could just like take away some of this pain that I'm feeling. And as I was like on my knees on the riverbank, I closed my eyes, and I had this visual of like the spirit of the river come out and just embrace me in this hug, and I felt like like this maternal energy of like it's all gonna be okay. The world is so much bigger than what's happening right now, and I don't have to go through this alone, and just these moments of feeling like we're not alone, and that we can find kinship in the earth is like like how profound and deeply healing it like in and of itself, and let alone like once we start feeling that connection with the earth, then I I would hope there's a more of a connection of like let's do our best not to destroy it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, yeah. I think it takes one experience like that for somebody to realize that the earth is actually a conscious being. Yeah, and she's listening. Exactly. And she can hold me in my experience.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And that soothing is so supportive for our nervous system. Especially because we're just surrounded by so much noise and violence. And if we don't think we're impacted by that, think again. Even if you're not consciously aware, you are.

SPEAKER_02

Oh yeah. Even just like leave your phone at home and go on a walk for 20 minutes and see how much of a different person you become. It's like we are our our nervous system is constantly hijacked, and like the frequency of the earth is such a is so grounding that like when we're scrolling or looking at the news, we're just like in this kind of like peaked high frequency or like, you know, kind of anxious frequency. And then once we drop down, it's like, all right, we can settle, we can ground, and the earth is such an ally in us finding that rhythm within ourselves again.

SPEAKER_01

What do you think about for people who may feel like they don't have enough nature? Maybe they live in the city or they live in an apartment. It's from my experience, I you can connect without actually being outside. If you can, that's great.

Growing and Working with Herbs

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's a good question. I think there's like a lot of different ways around that. I think working with plants like a tea is a really great way to connect with the plants and connect with the earth. So like you're calling in the spirit of the earth with the herb that's in your mug, or uh even if you have like a houseplant, like connecting, just tuning all of your senses to like become hyper-aware of the way that this plant is growing and the flowers or the leaves, or just like looking at the magical way that nature creates itself, even if it's in your houseplant or or sipping the tea in your home, or if you can go and find a tree in Central Park. Or whatever it is, like even just like going outside and feeling the sun on your face. It's it's reminding us that we're part of something bigger. Like it doesn't have to be this grandiose, like we're at a retreat in the middle of the woods. Like it can be these little moments of connection. Um another practice I like to do is imagining when I'm sitting in my house inside, like imagining growing roots into the soil and connecting with the earth. And so that is another way that I find that connection while I'm inside. You know, I live in Vermont, it's been like five degrees. I'm not going outside. So like that is how I've been connecting in the deep winter of yeah, sending my roots into the soil and finding the earth's energy through through that connection.

SPEAKER_01

What are your thoughts on the earth mats? I I don't know if that's actually the term for it, but you plug it into the like the bottom um outlet, and it's it's grounding. Really? Yeah. Yeah, it's these mats that you it connects, I guess it connects to the grounding cord, or I don't know how how it does it, but basically it brings the earth into your home through the mat. Wow. And I because I had it, I don't, I don't think I have it here. I think I left it in storage in North, but anyways. So I find I did it the first time for an hour and I got like lightheaded because apparently you have to like work your way, work your way up. I find that it really works. It's like it really soothes me.

SPEAKER_02

Wow, I wonder if it's if there's just like a certain frequency omitted.

SPEAKER_01

You have to plug something into the wall, and some come with it, and it tells you if the grounding outlet is safe. Like if there's interesting. Yeah, because I guess it could be not safe.

SPEAKER_02

So it's the outlet that is like itself is grounded, and then it it connects to that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, because you know how an outlet it's like I'm trying to say, I don't know the technical terms, but it's like two the two things on the top and then the one thing on the bottom.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's the bottom thing that you're plugging it into. And apparently that's like the grounding cord or something. It brings up the grounding electrical frequency. I don't know how it works, but yeah. Wow, I'm fascinated by that. I need to do my research. Yeah, yeah, I was curious. I mean, it's it's a good alternative for people who want to like go outside and put their feet in the soil every day, but maybe they live in a city.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I'm all for that. All for like whatever folks need to do to make that connection more accessible. Whatever it is, like take what you need, but we all need it in some way or another. I love that.

SPEAKER_01

Do you grow your own herbs or do you how does that work for you?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, both. So I just moved to Vermont a few months ago, but I was living in Colorado before that, and for the last year.

SPEAKER_01

Oh my gosh, I'm thinking of moving there. Really? Yeah, I'm a feeling. Yeah. Well, I was thinking Colorado Springs, but then I keep seeing online that Colorado Springs is really conservative and like military. Yes. And so that's kind of dissuading me, but it's so looks so beautiful. So I'm thinking maybe Denver or somewhere near Denver, close enough where I can go on all the hikes in Colorado Springs. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Where did you live? Yeah, it's beautiful. I was in Fort Collins. Oh, just an hour north of Denver. Um, yeah, it's it's an awesome place to live. I was there for almost eight years. I really loved it. And there for the last several years, I had grown my own herbs for the most part. Of course, not everything is gonna be able to grow. Like Colorado's climate is pretty harsh and dry, so I I was able to grow some things and some things I bought, but um I was fortunate enough to work at an apothecary in Fort Collins, and so I knew where they sourced all of their herbs and they're all organic, all organic sources, and so I felt really comfortable getting my herbs from them. Um so kind of a mix of both. Right now, I still have a lot of herbs that I grew last summer that are dried, and I am still working on those. So I have some of those that I like started from seed and then took all the way through harvesting, which is really special and sweet, my little babies. Um, and then some of the other herbs that I've bought, but you know, it's it's not always accessible to folks to be able to grow their own stuff. It's it does there's like a certain level of connection that you cultivate when you when you grow the plant and you and you tend to it every day. You're like building this relationship with the plant, and then once you drink that tea, it's like, oh hello, dear friend. I've been with you for the last several months. Like it feels like you guys already know each other. But I do think if that's not accessible, like just knowing that you're getting herbs that aren't sprayed with pesticides, um, getting organic herbs is like the very next best option.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, is there anything else that we should be looking for? So organic herbs, maybe like I don't know, family or like locally?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. The more local, the better.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

Sustainable Practices in Herb Sourcing

SPEAKER_02

For sure. I think yeah, support local firms always, always, always. And thank you for saying that. And then a big one for one plant in particular, white sage is like a common herb used in the spiritual community for like sacred smoke and smudging, and it's really over harvested. Yeah. And so there are some herbs, including white sage, that have like sustainability issues with buying them. And so there are kind of like ethical choices that you can make as a consumer deciding whether or not you want to buy them, whether you want to try to grow it on your own or with white sage. Like I know that there are some companies that are owned by indigenous people in California that grow white sage and then sell it. So, you know, I think it's just important when you're buying herbs to like just do a little bit of research about the environmental impact of what harvesting that specific herb looks like, and if there's a way you can lessen your footprint on the earth, like I think go for it. And support, like support local farms, support indigenous communities. Just don't like support Amazon or whatever the fuck big companies are selling.

SPEAKER_01

I can't remember. I can't remember the name of the reservation that so where I buy my Sage from, but I'm I'll link it below. It's it's I I hard so I hardly use Sage, and I I'm starting to slowly use it again for just myself, but for a while I was only using it with my native client at the end of our session, and I just felt like should I even be as a white, like should I even be using this just for me? I almost feel like my native client is like giving me the blessing. I used to use it all the time and from yeah, used to buy it from Amazon like years ago because I had no idea that it was like cultural appropriation in a sense, but yeah, we're learning.

SPEAKER_02

We're we're just we're learning more. And I think kind of another thread to pull on there is that the the purpose of burning white sage is to cleanse the air, but every culture has its own herb that serves that purpose. So, like, do a little bit of research into your genealogy and look at like what the native people of your tradition or of your culture um used, right? Like rosemary was used and cedar was used in the Jewish traditions. And so I like to burn rosemary and cedar, and I have white sage that I grew, so I'll burn that. Um, but like what a cool way to connect with your own lineage instead of pulling off of someone else's. Like, learn more about your culture and figure out what like what the traditional people of your culture use to cleanse and purify spirits and like start talking with the plants, start talking with your ancestors, and like it's it kind of opens this door of like discovery into your own knowing.

Exploring Ancestry and Herbal Traditions

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I have a question about this. It's kind of for me for myself a little bit. And I'm sure a lot of people, especially being so disconnected from culture in general, like Americans are just really disconnected from their roots and their lineage. For people who don't, I'll just look, I'll just be for myself. I don't like have a lot of family members who like know information. Like, I don't know where do I look because like I feel like it's so general, like my family coming from like central Italy, like Naples area, um mainly.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's like how do I how do I know?

SPEAKER_02

Like, how do you start that search? You know, I honestly would just like start a Google rabbit hole, and I would start Googling like I've done this, like ancestral folk herbalism in Naples, Italy. Yeah. And then maybe start searching, um, or just see what that brings up, like folk herbalism, ancestral folk herbalism, or ancestral herbalism, and then the name of whatever country your family is from, and like see what you find. And you may find a lot and you may not, but you're gonna learn something about the movement of your people, and I mean that's the thing, is that like every every nationality has had people who have been connected with the land. As far you know, as long as you can trace it back far enough, you will find there are people that lived in connection with the land all across the earth, they've been displaced and they've moved, and especially with like the Jewish people, it's been it's kind of difficult to track because they're they've been all over, but there are these like these truths that follow their movement that you will be able to find about like like personally I can speak to like Jewish people were like on the go a lot and they were they were fleeing persecution a lot, and so like they brought like cloves of garlic in their pocket and little plants of rosemary with them. And so like there are these little things, and then like once you start learning about that, you can start pulling on these threads. And I mean, I'm sure there's some books about about folk Italian herbalism out there.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I was just remembering as as you were talking that one time I was automatic like w journaling, and I walnuts. That's what came through. It was like so it was really strange. It was and I had no awareness of any of this, and so then I went down a deep rabbit hole because it's like almost like I wanted to validate what I what was coming through, yeah, and how it was connected, but it was like this might sound like a little crazy, but it was like Princess Diana, not the Princess Diana, goddess Diana, and because what came through was a temple of Diana and then walnuts and then Benevento, which like so I'm like, what is happening here? And so I did some research, and then I rem there was like these the Benevento witches, which were like this big thing in Italy, and they would worship goddess Diana around a walnut tree. And oh my gosh, so like chills, yeah. And so I just realized I never thought to I need to like do something with the walnuts, or maybe yeah. What do you think about walnuts? Is there anything interesting about that?

SPEAKER_02

I don't know, but I would look into the walnut tree. Like I wonder if the like the leaves of the tree you could burn the leaves or something like that. Like another thing that I've learned through this type of herbalism is that like every part of the plant has use. So, like, yeah, the walnut is edible, but I wonder if like the plant itself, the leaves itself or the bark have other spiritual or physical properties? Yeah. I personally don't know, but it's definitely worth like another rabbit hole, I think.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'm feeling it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I love I love this stuff. This is so cool. Okay, I'm gonna look into that. Cool. Do you have any thoughts on and I know and I know maybe this isn't a great question to ask like nearing the end, but do you have any thoughts on why we became so disconnected from all of this?

The Disconnect from Nature and Its Roots

SPEAKER_02

Do you feel like it starts at like the agricultural revolution or because that's what a lot of people say is when we started to like own land and controlling women's body to control like inheritance and yeah, when we began to feel like we could control the cycles of the earth and I mean it makes so much sense what you say about the agriculture revolution, but in my mind, like what what I think about is when we like shifted from worshiping the goddess into worshiping like male gods. Um and I think like that power shift from worshiping the goddess as like the earth goddess, as like the creator of all into this like separate god that we require a translator for or someone to tell us whether we are worthy or not of I don't want to get too like religious or p political, but I guess I'll just stick to the.

SPEAKER_01

I mean you absolutely you absolutely can.

SPEAKER_02

I'll just stick to saying that the disconnect from believing in the goddess has has disconnected like belief in women, belief in our bodies, and and the knowing that we are of the earth. And I think a lot of that comes from the rise of Christianity and Patriarchy. Patriarchy and like imperialism. So feeling like we have power over others, like all of this, like these power dynamics, those are all masculine energies. Like, like I don't you know.

SPEAKER_01

And not like real masculine, like not not healthy masculine, right? The shadow masculine.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The shadow masculine, exactly. Um, and I think, you know, someone proved me wrong, please. But if the world was ran by women, I don't think we would be in wars the way we're in. I don't think we would be destroying the earth the way that we are. I just think that there's like more of this inherent because our bodies, women's bodies, are so impacted by the moon and our cycles mimic the moon, and we're so like we are, I believe, more connected to the earth. Uh I don't think that a planet run by a woman would be destroying the mother the way that we are.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, she would never choose to destroy her own body.

SPEAKER_02

No. So it's yeah. I bel yeah, I think it's I think it's probably all happened around the same time, right? Like this shift towards male-dominated society.

Reclaiming the Divine Feminine and Earth Connection

SPEAKER_01

Have you read the book The Great Cosmic Mother? You'd really like it.

SPEAKER_02

I need to write that down.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, let me let me make sure. Hold on. That's probably gonna sound really lappy. The Great Cosmic Mother. Yeah, rediscovering the religion of the earth. It's such a good read, and it will it's it's so good. Are you familiar with Sophie Strand? Yep, yep, okay.

SPEAKER_02

I was just like looking at my bookshelf because I have a bunch of her books behind me, and so I was some of her work has just been so impactful in supporting this like knowing of like, oh yeah, that's where the disconnect comes from. Yeah. Um my husband read The Flowering Wand by her. I never read it, but have you read it? Yeah, it's so good. Yeah, yeah. And I think a lot of it kind of talks about like the sky gods, the masculine gods, versus like the earth gods or the the more female gods.

SPEAKER_01

And yeah, that's exactly when you were talking. I was like, oh, I need to ask her if she's read Sophie Strand.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. Love her. Also, like kind of tangent, but I loved the Madonna uh Madonna's Secret. Have you read that? It's a novel, it's like her rendition of Jesus' story from Mary Magdalene's point of view. It's so good. Highly recommend. Highly recommend.

SPEAKER_01

It's called the Madonna Secret. Yeah, or like a Madonna's Secret.

SPEAKER_02

But yeah, Sophie Strand. I loved it so much.

SPEAKER_01

So oh, it's by oh, it's by Sophie Strand. Okay, cool. Yeah, yeah. I'll have to read that. She talks and there's nobody like with her brain. Like the way that she sees things and the way that she just connects everything to nature is like it's just it's like my my mind, it it just like she takes me somewhere that I didn't even like. I would have never thought like it's just crazy. Totally.

SPEAKER_02

It's brilliant, and her whole family, like they're all channeling this these spirit. Like, I believe that they're all channeling these old spirits speaking through them as like they're kind of like the mouthpieces for these old spirits. I can't remember the name of this book that she that her and her that her mom and her dad wrote, but it's about the rosary. Clark Strand and Perdita Finn. They wrote a book about kind of like rediscovering the rosary as as a reverential way to like pray to the goddess, pray to the earth mother. And they have a statue of Mary that they like Mary as the Earth Goddess. Like they have a statue right in front of their home in Woodstock, which is like upstate New York. I know you lived in Westchester, right?

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so not that far, not that far from there. And they've created this kind of like at least national, maybe global group of people that go through these prayers of praying, of like reclaiming the rosary as a way to connect to the goddess. Sorry, I maybe you can look look up the name of the book and like link it because I can't think of the name, but I highly recommend that one too. Called it's called The Way of the Rose. The Way of the Rose.

SPEAKER_01

I've been seeing that like everywhere, recommended.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Highly recommend. It's it's truly life-changing. Like I'm a Jewish person praying the rosary, like it's very it's been life-changing. So yes, highly recommend.

SPEAKER_01

Wow. Yeah, actually, that's really that's a really good recommendation too, to kind of reclaim the relationship that people have with the rosaries. Cause I just remember growing up in a Catholic family, like just almost feeling like this resistance, you know, like get that, like just the way that I don't know, the energy that was the way that it was. Um my family had a relationship with it. It was like strange kind of. Like it just felt like, I don't know, like off.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like a duty or responsibility that you have to do instead of something that you feel and discover for yourself.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

At least I can speak to some of my husband's experiences. He grew up Catholic too, and like he's also come back to praying the rosary in his own way through this book. And yeah, the redis like I think it helps a lot with like the Catholic wound of like growing up Catholic, then moving away from the religion, and then being like, oh, I can like re reclaim this relationship to this ancient practice of praying the rosary whale, which came before Christianity, and like reclaim it for myself as a way to connect to the divine or spirit or whatever name you want to call it. That's something bigger than ourselves.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I feel like you've given me a lot to look into trying. I really appreciate that. Where can people find you if they're interested in looking into your offerings?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Root and rise together. Um, I have a whole bunch of offerings around herbalists on some of my group work. I do women's circles and group um like herbal groups, and then I do one-on-one intuitive herbal readings for folks, some tarot readings, and um I teach yoga, all that's online. So most, if not all, of my offerings are can be virtual. Um, so wherever you are, you can tune in if you want to.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much, Zoe. It was really nice connecting with you. I just feel like your presence is so grounding and warm and soft, but very wise.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you. Thanks for creating this space and just like opening the dialogue. I I need more of this. I think we all need more of this in our lives. So thanks for having the platform.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Thank you.