What Is Ethical Leadership? And Why It Matters More Than Ever

The Belonging Podcast by Elev8 Villages | Episode 019 
Guest: Rebecca Justus, Ethical Leadership Coach and Mentor

In this episode, we explore one of the most important and often misunderstood topics of our time, Leadership.

But not just leadership…

👉 Ethical Leadership

Melissa sits down with Rebecca Justus, a coach and mentor in ethical leadership, to unpack what it truly means to lead with integrity, intention, and care in today’s complex and divided world.

💡 In this conversation, you’ll learn:

What leadership really means (and why most people get it wrong)
The difference between leadership and ethical leadership
Why leadership often turns into control or harm
How power changes people (and how to stay grounded)
The role of curiosity in great leadership
How to create safe spaces and belonging in teams
What inclusive leadership looks like in real life

This episode will challenge the way you think about influence, power, and responsibility.

Follow Rebecca

Websites: https://www.rebeccajustus.com/
https://www.reproductiveautonomy.org/
IG: https://www.instagram.com/therebeccajustus/ 
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rebecca-justus/


If you lead in any way, at work, in your community, or even in your family, this conversation is for you.

This podcast is made possible by the generosity of our patron: Deana Laughlin. 
Thank you Deana!!

Learn More About Elev8 Villages:
Website: https://www.elev8villages.org/
Download your FREE Belonging Kit: https://www.elev8villages.org/FREEkit

This podcast exists because we believe belonging is not a luxury. It’s a human need. Every story shared here helps us imagine a world where no one has to walk alone. 

If this conversation resonated with you, please follow, rate, or share the show with someone who might need it today. To learn more about the movement we’re building (or to get involved) visit Elev8Villages.org.

Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Belonging Podcast by Elev8 Villages - where belonging becomes a place we build together. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Belonging Podcast by Elevate Villages, where we explore what it really means to be human together. I'm your host, Melissa Kay, and today we're talking about something we don't always name clearly. We're going to be talking about leadership. Because while leadership has the potential to create great impact, it also has the potential to do harm. My question going into today's episode for myself has been: what does it look like to lead in a way that could actually create belonging? Our guest today is Rebecca Justice, who works in the space of ethical leadership. She's both a coach and a mentor of this subject, and I'm really looking forward to exploring this with her. Rebecca, welcome to the Belonging Podcast. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here and joining you for this conversation. What I'd like to start with, because leadership, as I've gotten ready for this episode, I've realized how there's so many different ideas of what leadership is. So that we all can kind of start you and I and our listeners on the same page, what would you say leadership is?

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Yeah, I'm so glad that we're starting with this because I think that everyone has their own idea of it. We obviously have shared definitions, but with everyone having their own kind of sense of it, we really can start off on different grounds. So I get this question a lot when people are interested in working with me is sort of I'm not a leader. Can I still work with you? And so I actually put a little caveat on my website that says that you are a leader if someone values and listens to your perspective. So that was kind of the simplest terms I wanted to use because I think that people who I would identify as leaders and others in their community probably would are not self-identifying as leaders. And so I was thinking if you have any sort of sway with anyone, if anyone really just values your opinion, then you are a leader in whatever sense that looks like.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Okay, great. So if someone values your opinion, so I think all of us are a leader in some part in some piece of our life. So considering that as leadership, in your words, then, what is ethical leadership?

SPEAKER_01 2:20

So I like to again break this down to the simplest terms that I can. So for me, ethical leadership is about leading by doing what is right. It's about when you care about more than just profit and sort of the bottom line, but actually caring about the interests of your team, your community, your stakeholders, all of that, and letting that influence how you lead, leading with intention and integrity and caring.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

That's really clear. Thank you. To in today's world, what is most important about shifting from just leadership to ethical leadership?

SPEAKER_01 2:58

I think I mean the world we live in is just there's so much going on. There are so many different examples of leadership. And I'm gonna say perhaps leadership we don't want to be emulating out there. And when I tell people often what I do, I get the reaction of, oh, that's so important and that's so needed right now. And I think that that really resonates a lot with people because you have this idea of okay, ethical leadership means doing right by people, right? It means leading them in a way that feels good to everyone involved, that has the best interests of everyone at heart. Ethical leadership is so important today because the world we live in is so polarized and people are struggling to continue to do what's right when they're also just trying to survive. So it's kind of how do we lead in a way that aligns with our values, aligns with the values of our community and others around us, and still gets the work done that we need to get done, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:58

I really like what you said. Um as a leader, you're not just looking for the outcome you want, but like how do you make sure everyone around you is also happy with that outcome? Can you talk about it?

SPEAKER_01 4:11

I think that um I think that's part of belonging, is um really using the community around you to help your impact your decision making and the way that you're approaching the work that you do. So maybe you have an idea about you want to achieve X, Y, and Z or you're working toward this goal. But if you can kind of pull from other sources, if you actually seek out the opinions and perspectives of others, that can only strengthen your approach to that work and how you achieve that work and right? Got it.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

I understand that. So around ethical leadership, do you can you give give us today like a strong example of the best in ethical leadership today? Maybe a leader or an organization or a moment that you can can tell us so that we can sort of feel ourselves and what it would feel like to be in the space of our ethical leaders.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

This is it's uh it's a somewhat challenging question. There's obviously kind of high-level world leaders who come to mind when I think about it, like Jacinda Arden from New Zealand, the Obamas, Michelle Embarack, Obama. There are a couple of people who come to mind at sort of that high level, who are people who stand by, not only stand by their values, but actually kind of walk the talk, right? Some other ones that come to mind are the reproductive justice movement in the US started with a group of black women because they found that the reproductive spaces that were where people were advocating for their rights and for access and all these things didn't incorporate the full spectrum of their humanity. And so they wanted to make sure that it did. And so I think that, you know, that movement is still changing and growing, but it's a very inclusive and adaptable space that's sort of adapting not in ways to appease others, but to try to include others, right? So I think that's been really interesting to witness. And I have a couple of personal examples from people in my life. Um, someone, a friend of mine who is a lawyer and a founder in Tanzania, um, Bernard Otiano, uh, he is just someone who's always sort of curious, leading from a sense of curiosity and seeking out feedback and input from others and really wanting to know how he can improve his work and the ways that he works by incorporating the voices of others and especially those who have different experiences than him. I think that that's such an amazing approach. Those are some examples that come to mind.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

So helpful to kind of see it on the macro level and then all the way down to micro. That was really helpful. Thank you. And I I also am resonating a lot with when you said curiosity. In my day, I think I grew up a generation before you, but in my mind, leadership is so equated with the person at the top knows everything and they're always right. That's taking it to an extreme, but in in a general. And so instead to see a leader who's actually curious, and let me gather from the wisdom of all of the team and where are people and what are they thinking and how is this affecting them? I think that curiosity right now, just listening to your examples, that lands really deeply with me. That part of being an ethical leader is staying curious. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Yeah, I think that with the examples of I would say less ethical leadership, we often see that lack of curiosity and just a kind of dictatorial decision-making style of this is the way I think that we should be doing things, and just kind of top-down decision making that doesn't incorporate anything else. And so yeah, I love that you highlighted um curiosity because I obviously think that that's very important.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Let's talk. You tend to kind of do the shift for us a little bit. Thank you. Um, in it really exploring the reality of when leadership becomes more harmful. Where do you most often see leadership break down? Since we're talking about ethical leadership, when does it become unethical?

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Unfortunately, I think that as people start to, if we're using the workplace as an example, as people start to kind of climb higher and higher, that's when you start to see some of those values alignment and these other pieces go fall by the wayside a little bit because people are trying to figure out how to be in these new positions that they're not used to and maybe managing larger teams or being responsible for more things. And I think that unfortunately, as people get more power as well, it becomes harder for them to see the big picture sometimes or to remember all of our shared humanity or, you know, these pieces that are really essential that we often have when we're sort of low. I'm gonna say lower on the rungs. I don't love that. But I think that the more power and authority and influence that we hold, the more we often fear losing that, which is what people often think is happening if they include the voices of others or if they go, if they seek out guidance from others, it's almost like a sign of weakness, which I don't agree with, obviously. Um, but I think that that's that's something that often shows up as soon as people start to climb higher and higher. Um, because you have people who are kind of middle management, sort of emerging leaders who I work with a lot. And there's often sort of things that they bring up about the top-level leadership in their organizations or companies and just how they feel like they've lost sight of the team or the actual mission. And they're just trying to kind of balance finances and demands and all these things, and they've lost sight of again that those core pieces that people are really there for.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

This is actually making me think over the weekend, I saw the new movie that came out, Michael, the first part of his story about Michael Jackson. I was actually reflecting on it because this is just in a family dynamic, not in business or a corporation. But as a family, Michael's dad, and I think for for a long time we've all heard these stories, the movie starts outlining the dominance that the father had in the family. And I could see as the leader of the family, he was trying to do right by his family. He wanted to get them out of the poverty area of Gary, Indiana. He wanted them to make something of their life. He saw talent in his children and was gonna hone that so they could have a better life. But as you watch Michael's dad throughout the movie, it's so painful seeing how his leadership was received by his family and how it actually separated him from his family instead of created a better bond. And so that made me really sit and resonate about how power shift from influence into control.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

There is some sort of separation that happens. In some cases, we lose really important connections when that happens. And I think this is just important to be aware of that. Who's advising the people at the top? Who are they listening to, right? Because when you're at a certain level, you have different goals or objectives. You're listening to certain people. And as you move, those people who become your advisors or your mentors probably shift, right? And so I think being aware of what kind of perspectives those people hold and how diverse are they, and who, what are their motives? And I think that that can be, we've seen that in celebrity relationships and in other places where the impact of those that people are listening to is enormous, right? I think that something else to look for is I've talked about this sort of idea of keeping community and those around you involved or in your mind when you're decision making, right? I think something else to look for is if things start to become a bit more self-serving, if it seems like people are interested in serving the organization or company, but also it seems let there seems to be less of a focus on serving those around them and the community and their team and all of that, where there's sort of little, I'm trying to think of specific examples, but none are coming to mind right now. But I think you kind of notice little subtle shifts in, oh, it doesn't seem like we were factored into that, or oh, they made this decision. And was anyone consulted on that? Did we talk about, you know, just little things like that? I think are some of the marks when you start to see people making those kind of changes. Got it.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

So as a leader, what would you feel as a leader, like in organizations, would people just start shutting down and not communicating, like showing up at meetings, just, you know, staring at their paper? Or would you maybe be getting some negative feedback that then you're getting defensive over and go, wow, maybe I need to listen to this instead of trying to prove myself right?

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Yeah. I would say definitely people shutting down or just agreeing with you, which is hard to, I think can be hard to look for when you're already in that position. But especially when people's livelihoods are at stake, they might have a difficult time giving negative feedback, uh, especially if there's not safe channels through which to do that. So I do think that the kind of silence and the shutting, if it looks like people are shutting down if you're able to observe that, I think that is a good indicator.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

I want to go back to what you said, safe channels. In organizations, what are safe channels that can be designed so that leadership can have clear feedback on how the team is really needing and maybe wanting to be led? What would like a clear feedback loop look like?

SPEAKER_01 14:11

This is this is also challenging in organizations because you you usually have an HR department or something where people can report things to. Most people don't trust HR departments or believe that they are there to serve the organization or the company and not the individual, right? As someone who knows a lot of people who work in HR, I believe that they still want the best for the teams, but I know that that's uh that's not always the situation. So I would say if there are reporting through HR channels, then that's obviously ideal where you kind of know if you can give anonymous feedback or if there's someone you can turn to. Okay. Um, otherwise, I would say there are often kind of other ways to report things that are outside of that. Like if you have colleagues or other kind of people in leadership that you can that are trusted that you can turn to, then that's another way to go about it. But it is, it is a sticky situation and whistleblowing or even reporting just negative feedback can be really risky for people. And, you know, people don't want to put themselves in that sort of line of potential backfire.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Rebecca, where do you see leadership intersecting with belonging?

SPEAKER_01 15:30

You know, if we're talking about in the workplace, the idea of belonging in the workplace, is that something we actually want? You know, is that something people are looking for? Uh, I think if we're talking about it in terms of feeling safe in the workplace, feeling that your work is valued and you're respected and all of that, if those fall into that, then obviously, yes, people do want that. And I think that leadership, especially if you're trying to be a good leader and a strong leader and a supportive one, then it's part, it's a really key part of your job to ensure that your team feels a sense of belonging. Um, and I think that really starts with you. So if you don't feel that in your workplace, how are others around you gonna feel that? Right. So making sure that you have created that within yourself for the organization and then helping your team to make sure that um they are respected and seen and valued and all of those other pieces is really important.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Okay. Yeah, I think in the thinking about the corporate world, obviously there's lots of different teams. You know, you would have, let's say, your sales team and your marketing team. And if each one of those teams felt like they belong to each other or to the purpose of the team, and then you have the larger, like everyone in the company, do they feel like they belong at that company? Like your original definition of leadership just being if you have influence over somebody. So if somebody does value our opinion, whether this is in the workplace or whether this just is in life, how might we as humans look differently at the influence that we're creating if our goal was to truly belong to each other? How might we look at leadership differently?

SPEAKER_01 17:16

I think that belonging in that way is helping helping our communities to thrive and to grow by us supporting each other. And I think that this is why, this is why I've generalized that definition of leadership, is because whatever sphere we're in, whatever community we're talking about, we're a leader in some way or another, as you mentioned before. And so if we can focus on helping others to feel that they belong in that space, in that community, and even in spaces where we're not necessarily a leader, but we're a member, we can always help each other feel feel at home and feel comfortable in those spaces, right? Without, I think that's a big piece of sort of inclusion and equity, right? Is making sure that these spaces, these communities are not just designed for the few people who might benefit the most from them, but that they are actually inclusive of others and that others see themselves in those spaces and feeling safe and respected and all of these pieces in those spaces, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:24

Absolutely. What do you think ethical leadership looks like today?

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Have the best intentions and you're seeking to follow through on those intentions. So it's not, you know, there's well-intentioned people everywhere who are maybe not doing the best job at following through on that. I think such an important piece is doing the right thing, whatever that is, according to kind of your values, what you feel is right, even when it's hard. Because anyone can do the right thing when it's easy, right? We're we're living in a time where it's getting, well, not even getting, it is harder to do the right thing because of the situations we're being put in. Um and I think that that means the most when people see, when people can look to you and know you're gonna be steadfast no matter what, that you are someone who is always going to support them, to pull them in, to you know, stand by what you say and all that. I think that that's that's crucial right now.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Yeah, that like consistency in the intentionality. That's what I'm hearing you say. So let's wrap this up this way, Rebecca. If you could shift one thing about how people lead today, just shift one thing, what would that be?

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Where we started the conversation with what our idea of leadership is. If I could shift how people view leadership and how people are defining leadership and who their examples of leadership are, that's what I would want to do. And say, look, you know, maybe at different cultures around the world. There's people in leadership positions, even higher, higher levels, lower levels, everything, who are leading in different ways than especially us in the US, for example, are doing, you know, and I think just being aware that those examples exist, that people are successfully leading through other means. And I think that that is so powerful because we often emulate what we see. And so if we can actually see other examples, then we know, oh, I can lead differently. I can lead like this. This is the type of leader that I want to be. Not really like that, but you know, this one over here. I think that's that would be great.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Got it, got it. So just being able to observe um ethical leadership and action and people can learn from that.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

It was just great having you with us today. So thank you for bringing your wisdom to this room. So I'm thinking we leave today for our listeners with this question. As you're leading, whether that's influencing someone next door or leading a huge corporation, am I creating space for others to fully show up? Or unintentionally am I limiting that? Thank you so much for being a part of this. Deep gratitude to our patron, Deanna Laughlin, for making this podcast possible. And thank you to your listeners. Thank you for being here and exploring belonging right alongside of us. This has been the Belonging Podcast by Elevate Villages, where we build belonging together.