Lit on Fire
“Welcome to Lit on Fire — the podcast where literature meets controversy, where banned books, silenced voices, and dangerous ideas refuse to stay quiet. From classrooms to courtrooms, novels to news cycles, we explore how stories challenge power, expose injustice, and ignite social change.
Our logo — a woman bound atop a burning stack of books — isn’t just an image. It’s a warning and a promise. A warning about what happens when voices are erased… and a promise that stories, once lit, are impossible to put out.
So if you’re ready to question, to argue, to feel uncomfortable, and to think deeper — you’re in the right place. This is - Lit on Fire.
Lit on Fire
The Change by Kirsten Miller
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What if the moment you were told to disappear was the moment you became impossible to ignore? We take on Kirsten Miller’s The Change, a sharp, propulsive thriller where three midlife women transform grief, rage, and invisibility into a force that refuses to back down. Think murder mystery meets feminist awakening: Harriet roots into the earth and grows dangerous wisdom, Nessa hears the dead and demands peace, and Jo channels fury into fire and strength. Together, they confront a string of crimes that echo real-world headlines and expose why justice so often fails the girls who need it most.
We get personal about aging, power, and the myths that tell women to stay small. From the maiden–mother–crone archetype to the labels that police women’s voices—hysterical, bitchy, too much—we unpack how language, culture, and institutions shape who gets heard and who gets erased. Along the way, we challenge the “man-hating” critique with nuance: the book includes strong male allies and loving partners while shining a bright light on predators and enablers. The focus isn’t hating men; it’s interrogating power, accountability, and the systems that protect abuse.
Then we wade into the thorny debate: when, if ever, is vigilante justice justified? The Change removes ambiguity about guilt to force a harder look at the gap between legal process and moral clarity, especially when wealth and influence block the truth. We don’t romanticize going outside the law, but we do ask listeners to sit with discomfort, question inherited norms, and consider what real reform would require. If you care about feminist fiction, crime stories with heart, and conversations that burn through euphemism, this one will stay with you.
If this resonated, tap follow, share with a friend who loves bold books, and leave a review to help more curious readers find the show.
Mission Of Lit On Fire
SPEAKER_01Welcome to Lit on Fire, the podcast where literature meets controversy, where banned books, silenced voices, and dangerous ideas refuse to stay quiet. From classrooms to courtrooms, novels to news cycles, we explore how stories challenge power, expose injustice, and ignite social change.
SPEAKER_00Our logo, a woman bound atop a burning stack of books, isn't just an image. It's a warning and a promise. A warning about what happens when voices are erased, and a promise that stories once lit are impossible to put out.
SPEAKER_01So if you're ready to question, to argue, to feel uncomfortable, and to think deeper, you're in the right place.
SPEAKER_00I'm Peter Wexel.
SPEAKER_01And I'm Elizabeth Hahn.
Enter The Change
First Reactions And Ratings
SPEAKER_00And this is Lit on Fire. Welcome back. Today we're stepping into Kirsten Miller's novel The Change. A book that fills part thriller, part witchy uprising, and part long overdue Scream into the night. Miller gives us women who are middle-aged, underestimated, and suddenly discovering that the very forces meant to silence them grief, rage, menopause, invisibility, have turned into power. And through their friendship, she asks a dangerous question. What happens when women stop shrinking themselves to fit inside a patriarchy that was never built for them? We'll be talking about the everyday violences women are taught to ignore, the way society labels anger as hysteria, and how community can become a form of resistance. So light a candle, pour something strong, and join us as we dig into the change, because some systems deserve to be haunted, and some women are done playing nice. Okay. Well, here we go. Liz, your overall take.
Age, Visibility, And The Crone
SPEAKER_01I love this book. This is going to be the first time I say five out of five stars right away. If I could give it more than five stars, I definitely would. This for me is a book that really found me at the right time as I was reading it, as a woman who is entering that stage of life, who has given birth to five children, and who now is moving into my early 50s eventually. I'm 49 right now, so I'm holding on to the 40s at the moment. I really felt seen with this book, and I think that's the beauty of it. We talk about, of course, if you look at pagan culture, they talk about the maiden, the mother, and the crone. And I feel like in our society, we start to disregard women after they get to be a certain age. For me, you feel that. Like your life has been about trying to make yourself as beautiful as possible, about getting married, about having children, about being the person you need to be for other people. The stage we move into in midlife and past our midlife time should be revered as a beautiful stage. And what I love is that Kirsten Miller really gives her characters that moment. I was listening to a podcast once that talked about celebrating women when they reach perimenopause and menopause. And they talk about it, the celebration is called a croning. And they celebrate the women as they reach that point. And I thought, why do we not do that more? And so this book feels like a celebration of that to me, an acknowledgement of women in that stage and an effort to give them voice and power and show that really the majority of our lives is not about giving birth to children. The majority of a woman's life is outside of that, whether you're in childhood initially, or then you're living the whole rest of your life, the last half of your life, without really having your life revolving around that idea. And we should enjoy it. I think it's a time to be enjoyed. So this is a book that really gives women that power.
SPEAKER_00I love that. And I'm gonna be right there with you. I am a five-star review for this book. I absolutely loved it. Uh it and its follow-up, which we'll be discussing, The Women of Wild Hill, both excellent, excellent takedowns of the patriarchy, both great feminist pieces of uh literature now. As a man, obviously I experienced this narrative differently, but I was right there with them every step of the way because I am not a perfect human being as a man, and I have made many, many mistakes, and I've fallen into many of the toxic behaviors that men often exhibit because we are raised in the patriarchy as well.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00And and we're taught bad things that we need to unlearn. But I am at the point in my life where I am done being toxic, and I'm also tired of the patriarchy and the toxic behaviors of men that make me feel ashamed and overall just represent the male species in general. And so I'm I'm tired of men getting away with corrupt behavior, and this book was very, very satisfying. And I think more than ever, we have a very, very toxic patriarchy.
SPEAKER_01Right. I agree.
Plot Setup And The Three Powers
SPEAKER_00And I think this book, in a way, was a cathodic release of some of the tensions that keep building up inside me and obviously inside women about the behaviors of the patriarchy in this time and this this day. And I hate to think that this is what the solution, that this book solution is, is the only solution, but it feels that way. Right. It feels that way, and it gives us some thoughts to ponder about what justice women can have and what justice we all can have against this corrupt patriarchy power-driven. Power-driven system that we've got going on.
SPEAKER_01Right. Well, and as you're done being toxic, I'm done being apologetically invisible. Right. And I think that's where these women are as they get into this time of their lives. So you're gonna share a brief synopsis. We're gonna try not to do too many spoilers for you, but basically, what's the layout of this book?
SPEAKER_00Okay, so first of all, we have our three main characters. Our first main character that we're introduced to is Harriet. She is an ex-advertising exec who suddenly sort of mysteriously appears without her husband back at their house in Long Island, and slowly the neighborhood begins to see the house deteriorate. They perfectly manicuried a yard, starts growing wild, and she sort of becomes this mysteries shut-in. She kind of goes into hiding. And then we're introduced to our second main character, Nessa, who is a widowed nurse. And then our third main character, Joe, who is a mother and a wife, and she has a young daughter, and she runs a gym.
SPEAKER_01Called Furious Fitness, which we need to find mysterious.
SPEAKER_00Specifically for women who need to take out some of their extra energy in a positive way. And so it's a safe place for them. And slowly, these we get to know that these women have developed powers in different ways. Harriet connects with the earth and draws all of her power from the earth and becomes sort of a herbalist, I guess.
SPEAKER_01Yes, a classic witch.
SPEAKER_00Yes, a very classic witch. And Nessa has inherited the ability from her great grandmother, is it?
SPEAKER_01I believe so.
SPEAKER_00Who sees ghosts and has her family has always served the purpose of bringing these ghosts to peace by finding who these people have had violent deaths, and they have to find their family and bring them closure. Bring them resolution before the ghost can move on. Right.
SPEAKER_01So she is really the seer and the healer.
SPEAKER_00And she's the seer and the healer. And then finally we have Joe, who is the um fire. She's got the power. So she channels all of her rage into literal strength and also literal fire. Correct. She can burn people with her touch.
SPEAKER_01I feel Joe in my soul.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. So we have we have our fire, we have our earth, and I guess we kind of have our air, our spirit, sort of in the form of Nessa.
SPEAKER_01Right.
Justice Meets A Broken System
SPEAKER_00And the plot thickens when Nessa begins hearing the call of a young woman who has been murdered. And she goes out with her friend Joe, who she meets at the gym, to find this body and find this ghost and find out what happens. And when they do that, they also find other ghosts of young girls lingering in the same place. Their bodies have been lost to the sea, but they're also stuck, and they realize that there's been a series of murders. And they struggle with the ability to communicate their knowledge to the police in a way that doesn't draw all sorts of questions. We also have Interdistance Point an old friend of Nessa, Franklin, who was on the force with her husband who was killed in the line of duty. And he has moved to Long Island, and he's the key investigator in these murders. And so he has sort of a sensitive spot for Nessa, and they are friends, and he's a lot more open to believing her and hearing her out.
SPEAKER_01And he really represents that male ally. Yes. And so we'll get back to that a little later, but he comes in and he becomes a supportive force in Nessa's life.
SPEAKER_00Right. And so there we go. It's basically a murder mystery with witches who have magic and they're out for justice for these young women.
SPEAKER_01Correct. Yeah, and they've really developed. The only reason they have this magic is because they've reached this point in their life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they're just where they are part of their early 50s, right?
SPEAKER_01They are part of the change. Right. Right. So they have reached that point and it's a celebration of that point because this is when they develop their strength and come into their true being.
SPEAKER_00And it's how a society sort of treats women after they, as you said, have passed that point of being the wife and mother role.
SPEAKER_01Right. What our society deems worthwhile.
SPEAKER_00Yes, what they're what they're yes, exactly. What their true purpose of a woman is is to be a wife and a mother, right? Right. And they discover that that's that's not true. The better half of their life is still to come and that they they come into their empowerment. Right. So let's talk about that theme then first. Female empowerment as a theme in this book. What do you think?
Double Standards And Misogyny
SPEAKER_01I think it's really obviously essential and important. Again, I think it's really profound that it comes at this point in their life. I think that I understand that though. You were talking about the fact that you are a man who has fallen into some of those toxic things because we're raised in the patriarchy. Well, women are also raised in the patriarchy. And so we learn how to be quiet in the quote unquote right moments. We learn how to repress our own voices and be more invisible in certain moments. And when you're not, you're typically looked at in a negative way. When you are outspoken, when you are operating outside what is considered polite society, when you decide to speak your truth, you are an inconvenient woman. You make people uncomfortable. The room suddenly gets awkward. So that rage builds up over time. And there has to be someplace it goes. Either it diminishes you and you recede further and further into yourself, and you never get to the point of recognizing your true person, or it has to come out. And I have to say that, you know, years and years and years of being a wife and mother, and my forever husband that I married to now, I love tremendously. He is an excellent ally and an excellent man. But years and years of being a wife and mother, you feel like that's your only role. You feel like that's what you need to do. And so you fall into that. And then you get on the other side and you're like, well, now what do I do? Like, where's my value? Where's my worth? I always felt like there was a rage monster sitting on the opposite side of my chest wall. I felt it there. Like there were times where I felt so angry, like it was gonna burst out. And it, but I kept it there until I couldn't keep it there anymore. And then you make a choice. Am I going to say what I feel? Am I going to come into being as everything that I'm thinking inside and everything that I've wanted to say? Or am I just going to squash that place inside of me? And I think these women, especially Joe, and this is why Joe's kind of my spirit animal in this way. I think these women get to the point where they have to either diminish and lay down and die in quiet, or they have to let that rage monster out. And that plays into Joe's, you know, furious fitness. It plays into Nessa, even though she is the sweetest character. I mean, she's really sweet. I mean, she's really a lovely woman and very compassionate, but it plays into her recognizing these women. And it certainly plays into Harriet, who just explodes all over the place with her wildness and her poisons and everything else that exists in her garden, as well as her male lovers that she has coming and going from her house on a regular basis because she's realizing her sexuality. And I love Harriet because she also is bold enough to walk out into her garden naked under the moonlight and just stand there and be like, I do not care. This is me.
SPEAKER_00Yes, she gives no more.
Sisterhood As Force And Balance
SPEAKER_01Yes. All the things are gone. She doesn't care anymore. She is going to absolutely be herself. And in that, the strongest power and the strongest thing that comes of that rage is then these three women finding each other.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01And the beautiful thing there is that sisterhood. Because now it's not about competing against the woman next to you. It's about embracing the woman next to you. And I think in a patriarchal system, women are taught to compete with one another. And we shouldn't. We should form that sisterhood. We should form those bonds.
SPEAKER_00And because Harriet's connection is with the earth, which is where we draw all of our power and our energy from, she is arguably the most powerful force of the three. And it's her rage in particularly that draws the other two to her.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00And connects them all.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00But as far as female empowerment goes, yeah, one of the things that, of course, I was thinking about was that there's always a double standard when it comes to women, isn't there? Yes. If yeah, all my life I've noticed it, and I know you've lived it. But you know, if a if a woman is free sexually, she's labeled a slut or easy or whatever, all the nasty words. If she is powerful, then she's a bitch. Right. She's a nasty woman. If she is confrontational, then she's being overly emotional.
SPEAKER_01Right, hysterical.
SPEAKER_00Or hysterical. Yeah, exactly. And we know this is deeply, deeply ingrained in our society and our culture in the United States, because despite our best efforts, we've never had a woman president.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Despite them being highly qualified.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00But the misogyny is deeply, deeply ingrained. And you hear it every time a woman runs for president. Well, she can't be president. Women are too emotional. She's right.
SPEAKER_01Or or they're too much of a bitch. They treat their staff sadly. They yell at people. They are too aggressive. And if we said those things about a male political candidate, he would be seen as strong. But women are always criticized when they appear not to be sensitive enough because they're powerful women and outspoken women and not super emotional in the traditional way or the accepted way.
SPEAKER_00But if you are sensitive enough, you're gonna be a weak leader.
SPEAKER_01That's correct. So it's a double-edged sword and it's an unfair measurement that is put up against women. So this really gives, again, a representation of that and a voice to that because the double standard is so very real. And I think that's why ultimately the justice that is found in this book has to be outside the system because women struggle so much to get justice within the system. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's rigged against you. Another theme in this book, a strong one, was sisterhood. Women are drawn together. And I think they're perfect foils for one another, personality-wise. Because you've got Harriet, who is willing to do anything by any means. You've got Joe, who really has the strength to do it, and then you've got Nessa, who is the balancing force, who wants to kind of bring their two energies together in perfect balance.
Is This Man Hating Or Truth Telling
SPEAKER_01And if you want to look at it from a literature point of view and know here's the literature teacher again, and we're analyzing this, they're really three sides of the same person. I'm sure Freud, of whom I am not a fan, but I'm sure Freud would say that Harriet embodies the id, Joe embodies the ego, and Nessa embodies the superego. But they really become part in whole of the attributes and the feelings and the possible reactions that women live with every day. The compassionate side with Nessa, the rage side with Joe, the instinctual side with Harriet, and they come together to form these aspects of womanhood. And I think that that is really interesting how she really balanced that out. Because psychologically, these are all very human responses.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And so we know where the feminine wrage is coming from.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00And that's a big, that's another big theme of this book, is this this final outrage over all the injustices.
SPEAKER_01One of the biggest criticisms of this book, and I think it's going to play into our next couple topics, is that it is too hostile toward men, that men are made to be evil. And so let's stop for a second and say that Franklin is there and he's a support system for Nessa. Nessa's husband, who perished, was a really good man who was a support system for her as well. Joe's husband is incredibly supportive of her and has her back all the time. So they are there are men in this story that are good men, that are allies to this woman, that represent what men should be in a balance of the sexes and a balance of relationships. But there are a lot of bad men in this book. And so the justice for those bad, powerful, untouchable men is harsh. It has to be outside the system because the system is rigged, and the treatment of those men is very harsh. But in fairness, if you've heard anything about Kirsten Miller's books and you've heard some of that, she's too harsh with the men and this is too vengeful, everything about this book.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. If you go to the comment sections or the reviews of any of either one of these books that we're going to talk about, you'll hear it over and over again. Kiersey Miller just hates men. This is a man-hating book. Which again, there's the other double standard. Right. If you are a feminist, you are a man hater.
SPEAKER_01I must be out in the street burning my bras and burning pictures of my husband. Yes. You know, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Angry lesbian.
Vigilante Justice And Context
SPEAKER_01Yes, exactly. And I'm an angry lesbian instead, which would be great, by the way. But I'm just saying that it's it's a double standard. Kirsten Miller doesn't have a right to write about men in this way, to reveal the ugly side of what women see on a regular basis, that she's angry and she's bitter. And I don't think that's this at all. I think it's acknowledging a power structure, acknowledging a systemic problem that we have, and then showing the frustration of trying to work within the system, which these women do initially. They try to work within the system with other men in power. And then the realization that I can't work within the system because the system is still working against me. It is still working against me. And if you don't think the system is still rigged and working against women, you aren't paying attention. You have to see that. And so she points that out. And again, this goes back to women making people uncomfortable. Kirsten Miller writes a book that makes you uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. That's right. It's sad to me that it makes so many. Women are uncomfortable. Yes. Because when I read those comments, the thing is that men don't have to say that thing, the women are saying it for them. Right. Because this is what another theme of the book is that women, as enablers of the patriarchy, this book makes women feel uncomfortable because there are women who are trying to move within the patriarchy and it's their safe place. And these kinds of things jeopardize their comfort zone, right?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00They're the ones saying this is a man-hating book, and they're the ones that are calling these women toxic, and they're the ones that are calling that are saying, I quote, they become the abusers in the end, which is absolutely absurd to me, because these men that they are going after are billionaire pedophiles, sex traffickers, rapists, and murderers. And so boo-hoo, what happens to them, you know?
SPEAKER_01And if that doesn't, if that doesn't ring true to you in the real world, then again, you're not paying attention. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Epstein, shall we say? Just say Maxwell being being a perfect example of a female enabler.
SPEAKER_01Correct.
SPEAKER_00And this book really is a reflection, basically, of that story. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01It's very contemporary, it's very modern time, it's very real world connected. And I think what bothers people is they feel like, well, it's too on the nose in pointing those things out.
SPEAKER_00But if it wasn't, then people would say this is unrealistic. And this is not the world we live in. But it is most definitely the world we live in.
Critiques, Triggers, And Power
SPEAKER_01It is. And so this brings us to that question that really those people are asking when they're writing those comments and when they're getting hung up on it, is vigilante justice an appropriate response to injustice in this context? And I would say yes. They try for a good portion of the book to work within the system. But it is clear that justice for these young girls who are often from marginalized communities, who may be from lower socioeconomic families, the first girl's body that they find is a young black girl named Faith. And her ghost is the first one they talk to. She is labeled by society as, well, she must have been a sex worker and she must have been a drug addict. Right. And so this is the type of girl that gets caught up in this situation. But that's not the case at all. And it's so dismissed that then the women realize we aren't going to get justice for these girls this way. These girls are not going to be at peace. Their families are not going to be at peace. These men are not going to be stopped unless we do something more drastic. And it starts with Harriet and then it goes to Joe with her fire. And then we take revenge or justified vengeance on these men and on the system that supports these men. Right, she is. Because she is that really compassionate nature. She's that part of us that holds out and says, we can't do things that way.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And a big catalyst, though, is actually Franklin. Franklin is the one who finally who's because he's in charge of this and he's being blocked every time by his superiors, by the chief of police, who we find out is a terrible person. But he finally says, You're right. The law has done as much as it possibly can for you. Do what you've got to do.
SPEAKER_01Right. And I think we need to realize something because you brought up the chief of police. And I know a big trigger point from people is also making the police look bad all the time. That we're always saying the police are evil, et cetera, et cetera. Franklin's an investigator who's a really good guy, but we've got this evil chief of police, or this chief police that ends up being a bad person and not being able to work within this system. Listen, the truth is that there are bad police officers. There are bad police chiefs. There are also good police officers and good police chiefs. There are bad men, really bad men in the world that deserve to be punished. And then there are good men who are loving and operating in a way that is supportive and balanced. We just need to acknowledge that. We need to stop being so trigger-happy about the idea that, oh, here they go about men again, or oh, here they go about the police again, you know, not being supportive, being, you know, unjustly prejudiced against minorities, being, okay, these things happen in the real world. They happened in the real world. So people got triggered and uncomfortable with certain things in this book because they automatically went with, well, here we go again. This is the same conversation. These women are always claiming that because it's true. Right. Because it's true. And we need to stop acting like it's not true. And saying it's true doesn't mean that the good police officer over here that you know isn't a great guy. Right. But the system is dysfunctional.
SPEAKER_00It should be a serious red flag to anyone when you are told that you are not allowed to criticize any certain group of people. Right. Whether it be the military, whether it be a religion, whether it be the police, whether it be the government, whatever. That is a real red flag.
SPEAKER_01It is. I mean, danger, Will Robinson. You know, we're in the opposite direction. Because we should always be able to criticize power. We should always be able to call out injustice when we see it.
SPEAKER_00And question authority.
SPEAKER_01And question authority. And we should be able to listen to people that do that and not automatically dismiss them. That is something that's a real problem in our society right now. So this book really hits that straight on. And if it makes you uncomfortable, I get that. But read it, persevere with it, and sit back and think, why am I uncomfortable? What have I accepted in the world? What have I been conditioned to accept that is making me feel this uncomfortable right now? And then really try to reconcile that.
Final Takeaways And Next Book
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. And you made a good point. You said in this context, the vigilante justice is justified. Right. And that's important to know that that Kirsten Miller has removed all doubt about the context. And about the guilt of these persons so that we can now experience our emotional reaction to what we know they have done. Because the problem with vigilante justice, of course, is because the law is there to ensure that the right people are punished and the wrong people are not punished. And that can only go so far. But these women now have been given the power to enact true justice in a way where the law cannot. And so in that sense, it is justified because they know if they don't do this.
SPEAKER_01Ask yourself how many times in your life, and we've seen it in TV shows and everything else that try to address it. How many times in your life have you seen something terribly unjust that never gets justice?
SPEAKER_00Last week?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yesterday. I mean, these things happen all the time. And for me, that sticks in me. And I can't just let it go. We're always told to let it go. Well, you're not gonna get justice every time. There are some battles that aren't worth fighting. I'm ready to fight all the battles because I'm tired of hearing that same line over and over and over again. If it's unjust, we should confront it. If it's unjust, we should confront it. And these women take it head on. And they're unashamed about doing that. And Kirsten Miller is unapologetic. So when it comes to criticisms of this book, I've certainly heard a lot. I don't have many.
SPEAKER_00Neither do I.
SPEAKER_01I have read it more than once, and I really tried to listen to some of the criticisms and then see if I felt some of that in the writing. I don't. So I can't really be critical of the way she wrote this. I think she did something that very much needed to be done.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01All right.
SPEAKER_00So, Liz, what are we going to discuss next?
SPEAKER_01Well, we're going to carry on with Kirsten Miller. We're going to be discussing The Women of Wild Hill, which is really a sequel to this book, even though the characters are different. We're going to really get into that, dive into that, and I'm really excited about it. I am too. All right. So until then, we hope you keep reading, keep thinking, and we look forward to having another great conversation about another Kirsten Miller book.