Stumbling Up by Reck Well

Nobody here is destined. Nobody is crowned. And that’s exactly why Stumbling Up by Reck Well hits so hard. We’re talking about a LitRPG story that swaps the power fantasy for something messier: three lifelong friends trying to become adventurers while carrying the kind of self-doubt that never shuts up. Cole wakes up hungover with a life-changing mistake already made, Tandy is the high-achiever who’s tired of living by other people’s rules, and Leo is the friend whose insecurity curdles into ego. Also, yes, there’s Richard, a sentient banana slug companion who is funny, brutal, and way more important than he first appears.

We dig into what makes this book feel unusually human for progression fantasy and game-lit: the focus on inner dialogue, the way labels and stats become a moral problem, and why the world’s meritocracy leaves almost no room to fail. The plot doesn’t hand you a clean cinematic arc, and we actually think that’s the point. This is a setup story about relationship-building, identity, and learning how to do good while still being bad at it.

After our spoiler break, we get into the fractures that form when “be a hero” means different things to different people. We wrestle with the core questions the story raises: Do intentions matter if outcomes fall short? Is bravery a trait or a decision? And is the whole idea of a perfect hero just a comforting myth that lets the rest of us stay passive?

Subscribe for more book conversations, share this with your favorite LitRPG reader, and leave a review if you want more honest takes like this. What do you think matters more, good intentions or real results?

Transcript

No Chosen Ones Tonight

SPEAKER_03 0:50

Welcome back. Tonight we're not talking about heroes. We're not talking about chosen ones or destiny or the clean cinematic arc where everything clicks into place at the exact right moment. No, tonight we're talking about the rest of us. In Stumbling Up by Reckwell, survival doesn't look like glory. It looks like hesitation. It looks like second guessing every move. It looks like people who are painfully aware that they might not be enough and choosing to act anyway. Because what happens when the people tasked with doing the most good aren't the best? Aren't the strongest? Aren't even confident they should be the ones trying. This is a story about losers, or maybe more honestly, normal people, grappling with internal noise that never shuts off, self-doubt, fear, the constant suspicion that someone else would do this better, that you're just pretending. And yet they keep going. So tonight we're putting stumbling up on trial. Is doing your best actually enough when the stakes are high? Or is that just a comforting lie we tell ourselves when we fall short? Because this book doesn't ask what a hero looks like. It asks what happens when there isn't one, and whether stumbling forward still counts as saving anything at all. Okay, Liz, you wanna give us a brief synopsis of what this story is about?

Cole, Tansy, Leo, And Identity

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Alright, so stumbling up, the one introduction you gave me when you recommended this book was that it had a sentient banana slug in it. And that is indeed true. Richard the banana slug is an essential part of this book. However, it's based around three friends, the three friends that have grown up together, and that is Cole, Tansy, and Leo. These three friends have grown up in this society that is very much rooted in what we would call a gaming idea or a role-playing idea. It is the society based on finding your class and specializing in that class and raising your ability over time. And people that do not find their class, that fail to actually master anything or find their skill set are called mundanes. They fail to specialize in anything. And Tansy is the one person in the friend group that has a set skill that has found her class. And the other two, Cole and Leo, Cole has kind of found his place, but he's not very good at anything. And Leo has never found his place at all. So when we meet up with this group, we see everything through Cole's perspective. And he wakes up hungover. He realizes that he kind of has this faint memory that he did something stupid the night before. And it ends up that he finds that he discovers that he and his friends all signed up to be adventurers, to go on quests, to leave their village and become an adventurer group and find their classes or, you know, do these adventure things together and depart from what their lives had previously been. They've signed up. It's like they've enlisted in the army, so to speak. And Cole has already achieved a companion, and that is Richard the banana slug. And he already has this fanged banana slug hanging out with him. And the story proceeds from there that these three friends become adventurers and have to go to their first trial dungeon and then proceed from there to fight and earn experience and hopefully earn loot and hopefully accomplished quests to find their class, to build up their skills, and to become heroes and successful adventurers along the way. And we kind of see them stumble forward in their journey as potential heroes. And I think that pretty much sums up the basics. So let's talk about the characters.

SPEAKER_03 4:46

So I think that this is a very character-driven story. I felt really connected to Cole and very seen by him and his internal and external struggles to make anything of himself and really feel confident about who he is. I feel like we get to know him the best.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

We do.

SPEAKER_03 5:04

Maybe him and Tansy the best, a little bit better than Leo, who's, I think, a little bit more closed off because he's a lot more insecure about the fact that he's never really found his place. Whereas Tansy and Cole have kind of acquired skills in one thing or another. And Leo's essentially his magic really never activated. And so he's always felt like lesser. So he's a little bit harder to get a read on, I think. Right. Some eventually some other characters like Meredith, Meredith, excuse me, and Ash are introduced who are kind of the Izakai element of this story. And one of the things I loved about it is that the characters that are the main characters and focus of this book actually grew up in the lit RPG world. Instead, of what I'm more experienced with is we have a character from the normal world, Earth or whatever, being sort of transported to a lit RPG world and having to become accustomed to it. Instead, we were grounded in this world and I kind of appreciated it from that perspective. Right. I think that this was really about the internal dialogue and the external interpersonal struggles that these characters have with their friendship and with navigating their identity as human beings and their purpose in life. And I thought that that was really great.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

I really resonated with Tansy as my character of choice, I think. I really, of course, appreciated Cole, but Tansy is kind of the type A personality of the group, would definitely align with kind of where I am. And Tansy was rejecting not her failure in life because she'd actually been quite successful and she had done everything she was supposed to do, and she had achieved already this sage status. She was on the way to being very successful, but she hated what she was doing. And she was finding no joy in it, and she wanted to do something completely different, but was being driven very much by family expectation and all these pressures put on her nonstop to follow this kind of one-set path to be the perfect child and to fulfill all these lists of requirements and to check off all the boxes. And she pushes back by doing this radical thing by signing up to be an adventurer when that was completely outside of anything her family would have chosen for her. And I liked watching her progression. We didn't get to know her as well as we got to know Cole. I feel like he really sets up these characters for, of course, moving forward in the future for future books, but it was really good introduction to where they are as people. And I did also enjoy, if we're talking about atmosphere, which we're moving into next, the fact that we did start in that lit RPG world. And while Meredith and Ash are outsiders who come into it, we don't focus on them. We're focusing on the atmosphere that is already there for us, which is this world that's based in all these concepts.

SPEAKER_03 7:58

Other than that, I I'm not saying that there was not a strong sense of atmosphere in this story, but it it wasn't really about world building, was it? Oh, it was more about relationship building.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 8:09

And that is really the focus of it.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Yeah, the setting aspect, we didn't get really deep descriptions of the dungeons, really deep descriptions of the towns or any of that. No. And so while I could visualize everything they were experiencing, it was on a very surface level. So there is not an incredible wealth of time put into the world building, and some people may actually enjoy that.

SPEAKER_03 8:38

Well, I think our experience of the world that they live in is meant to be kind of normal.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Right.

SPEAKER_03 8:44

And mundane because they are very normal.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

So it's almost like a status quo for them. And we aren't meant to experience everything like, oh, you're seeing this for the first time. Let me describe it in detail. It's just kind of the day-to-day.

Inner Dialogue, ADHD, And Richard

SPEAKER_03 8:57

Yeah, it's not magical to them at all. The writing style, I really enjoyed the writing style just because I loved the focus of the story and the fact that, well, I don't know if this is more plot or writing style, actually, but because we are set in the lit RPG world, it avoided one of the more difficult things that I think lit RPG authors struggle with from my point of view, which is getting there. I've read a number of lit RPG books now and I've enjoyed them all. I've loved them all, but there's always this moment, and it's right at the very beginning, that feels awkward to me in many of them. They have this really awkward transition from the real world to the lit RPG world and making that feel believable to me without giving me plot whiplash, they don't invest a lot of time in it. Sometimes it's just like a page, and then suddenly the main character's hit by a car and suddenly they're in this other world. And the reaction sometimes, like, okay, you're not freaking out enough. You know? Right. And it avoided all of that. It avoided all of that for me and just eased me into the story much more skillfully than I think I've experienced in other lit RPGs.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

No, I agree. I think that the writing style was good. I enjoyed the inner dialogue. I think a good inner conflict, inner dialogue, talking to ourselves, Cole really gives us the classic insecure person who is constantly self-critiquing and constantly doubting and constantly questioning everything and kind of evaluating the people around him. And are they looking at me funny and do they think I'm an idiot? And then you have Richard, the slug's voice, constantly interjecting that yes, you are an idiot, and having kind of that jumping into Cole's already fragile psyche is humorous and then also very real at the same time. So Richard's almost like this really perverse Jiminy Cricket that's sitting on his shoulder, like telling him all these things that he should and should not do. I think that that works really well, the way those voices interject and play off of one another in the writing style.

SPEAKER_03 10:57

One of my favorite things about Cole is that in this world, whatever you spend your most time doing, it has the potential of becoming one of your skill sets, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Right.

SPEAKER_03 11:07

And one of his skill sets is self-criticism. Yes. And I thought that was so great. He spends so much time critiquing himself that he turns it into a skill set, which activates, and then he just starts to spiral. And I completely related to that. I completely related to the fact that his his spiraling thought process would activate and he realized that he had not heard anything somebody was saying to him, which happens to me all the time. Right. It was a very ADHD thing, and I was like, oh yes, I feel seen.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

I love that he spirals into self-criticism and then he turns around and he has to go into activating his meditation skill.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Yes. Right.

SPEAKER_03 11:44

I also feel seen by that too.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

So lots of good stuff there.

A Meandering Plot By Design

SPEAKER_03 11:49

Plot-wise, what I thought was really interesting about this is that in a lot of lit RPGs, it is a very linear quest progression. They're the hero, they're thrown into a situation, we know what the goal is, they move towards it, they be gain more and more powers, more and more skills, they fight more and more enemies in battles, and we just know where we're going. And even the character becomes kind of overpowered very quickly in a lot of situations. Whereas with this, it really was more meandering.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

These people don't know where they're going.

SPEAKER_03 12:17

They have no clue what the, yeah, exactly. They they're like us, they're thrust into a situation, they made an impulsive decision, and now they either succeed or fail. And what the end goal is is not very clear. It's clear that Requell is setting up an underlying high-stakes storyline.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Eventually.

SPEAKER_03 12:35

Eventually, but that's not really the main focus of this book. I mean, they go from their trial dungeon to the next thing and then to the next thing. And it's like I said, more about their struggle.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Yeah, this is really a setup book. There is not a linear plot line, there's not a huge goal. If we're talking about a story arc, a classic story arc where we have, you know, that climbing tension that goes up, the rising action, and then we hit a climax, and then we have the falling action. You don't really have that in a traditional sense in that book. I was going through the book and I'm getting toward the end, and I'm like, well, when is something really huge going to happen? It's gotta wrap up at some point. How is this going to wrap up? Like, where's the monster they're going to fight or the big climactic moment? That's not what this is about because these are normal people. They're not heroes yet. They're not sure of what they're going to be. They still don't have all their class sets. Tansy's still trying to get her spells to work consistently. And Cole is still trying to figure out how he can best be an asset to the group, as he's got kind of something equivalent to Donuts Cockroach skill on some level. And, you know, we've got this really trial and error thing going on the entire text. So it is worth it because you are really getting to know these characters as they get to know one another and figure each other out, but mostly figure themselves out. And that is what this book is really about. And I think it's really fascinating and a really good read and a really enjoyable read. But one should not go into it thinking you're going to have that traditional plot arc.

SPEAKER_03 14:18

Yeah, I mean, there is a thing that happens at the end that leaves you going, ugh, punched to the gut. But it felt more like I saw the first episode of a series that I'm gonna really enjoy than a first movie. Right. So yeah, definitely more to come and I can't wait. So he's got me hooked, absolutely. But yeah, that's more that experience. It was felt more episodic to me.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

And on that note, then the intrigue really comes at the end.

SPEAKER_03 14:42

Yeah, and we also kind of wonder what's going on with Richard. There's some there's some mystery there.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

There is, and that's some of my favorite tension as we're in there is Richard and the wonderful, you know, kind of bog witch that we've got going on. I like those moments. So there is a lot of room for development as we move forward in these books and a lot of storylines that can be built on. So the intrigue, like the little seeds are there to grow, and we can feel that tension that's in several places, but you're not gonna get the fulfillment of that intrigue in this opening text.

SPEAKER_03 15:17

The logic for me is do I believe these characters think like a real person and behave like a real person and interact with each other like real people and make logical decisions? And I think so, yeah. They were probably more real to me than any other lit RPG that I have read. It felt like this is how it would really work in real life.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:36

This would be how messy it is.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

This would be me in a dungeon.

SPEAKER_03 15:39

Yeah, exactly. That's how I felt about it. So to me, it was the most logical lit RPG I've read. I mean, other than they never ever explain why the worlds work on this kind of system. They don't have to. It's just sort of one of those suspend disbelief. Exactly. Exactly. But as far as feeling like these were really human, real human beings who think like real human beings and act like real human beings, yeah, it's very logical to me.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_03 16:01

Logical in the fact that none of them they weren't logical because we're not logical.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Right, right. So, enjoyment-wise, I think we both enjoyed it. I think that's obvious. Yes. I really enjoyed the characters, I enjoyed the banter, I enjoyed seeing from this lit RPG basis from beginning to end and this world that operates in this way. I liked the insertion of the outworlders in a secondary way. I do like Meredith's character quite a bit, and I look forward to seeing more from her later as the girl from Kansas. So I'm anxious to see where it goes. But I did end up liking this book a lot.

SPEAKER_03 16:41

Yeah, me too. And I enjoyed it, but also I think some of the characters really triggered some deep emotional scarring in me.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:49

And insecurities and frustrations. And that's real life.

Spoiler Break And Book Plug

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Yeah, it is real life. So be prepared to enjoy and then be prepared to be seen, possibly, and then possibly be prepared to be triggered. And now we're going to transition to the spoiler portion of our podcast. Be sure to pick up this book, Stumbling Up by Requell. If you have not done so, it will be a fun, quick read.

SPEAKER_03 17:32

Okay, welcome back. Um, I guess I just want to say that Cole is like my spirit animal. He's like, I related so much to him. There were so many moments, not just the ADHD moment and the self-criticisms and the feeling of inadequacy and the wondering where your place is in the group and whether or not you fit in or have anything to offer. I related to just everything he felt and thought, like with Meredith, his little attraction to her. That was really triggering to me because she reminded me of every girl that I've ever met that I developed this sort of infatuation with because she walks into a room and she's got this energy. She's never met a stranger that she couldn't charm, man or woman. She's adventurous, she loves to go out there and party and stuff like that. And I remember always just in my mind falling in love with that kind of girl, but in reality, realizing that I'm just not that person. Right. And the moment when he tries to go with her to the club and he gets drugged, it's exactly what would happen to me. I mean, not necessarily to get drugged, but like I know, and I think that anytime I've ever tried to rise to those kinds of occasion, it's always and it's always involved copious amounts of alcohol, which of course makes you bold, but it doesn't change the person you are, and it certainly doesn't make you your best self.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

So and you're slurring your words and you're acting like a complete idiot.

SPEAKER_03 18:55

So I have no uncringeworthy memory of any time I try to hang with a person like her.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:02

I don't think they're meant for one another. I would be surprised if they are. Right. But it's obvious though that he's very infatuated with her for whatever reason. And I think it's because she represents a kind of person he wishes that he could be. And that's probably what I was feeling too in in many ways.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

Right. And Leo and Tansy are always pretty much like, he's never gonna get a girlfriend. Like this is the reason you're never gonna get a girlfriend. And Leo in particular is the one that kind of rides him on that all the time, and he tries so hard.

SPEAKER_03 19:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

And then he just is a complete idiot.

SPEAKER_03 19:34

But he he has no ego. No, he has no Leo has too much of an ego, but it comes from a deep sense of insecurity as well.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

It does. And it kind of makes him come off as an ass.

SPEAKER_03 19:44

Yes. And Cole, he really frustrates me sometimes because it's so obvious to me reading him of his value and his bravery and his intelligence and his good nature and is willing to make sacrifices and put himself out there. And he doesn't see any of those attributes in himself at all.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Right. And he is clearly, he's reminded several times that he's the heart of the team, right? And he is the one who has the potential to hold the team together. I think that's one of the skills he begins to develop, that he is the heart of the team, that he's the heartbeat, and he has this capacity to hold the team together. He's continually trying to make sacrifices to his own detriment all the time in order to do things for them, but he fails to see his own value. He fails to see that he is necessary for the team.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

Ironically, I think he actually is responsible for killing the most bosses and really saving the day more often than not. I mean, he's the one who kills the dungeon boss.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Right.

SPEAKER_03 20:50

And he's really the one that's responsible for killing the guardian bear when he figures out that you need to strike the bell mechanism or whatever. I mean, he is really the one who saves their ass over and over again, and yet he never gives himself any credit for it.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Right. And unfortunately, he gets very distracted by labels and very distracted by titles and points and attributes. And of course, that is a function of the society he has grown up in, which that kind of throws a lot of other things into question, you know, about the society in general.

SPEAKER_03 21:25

It's very much a meritocracy.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

It is. And so you have to earn your place. You have to be quote unquote successful. He has not been, he has not had a family that has pushed and prodded and made him successful. He has got a very loving family in a lot of ways. I mean, they have Sunday family dinner, and his friends are clearly welcome. And it is a family atmosphere, which really interests me because clearly he has something that Tansy and Leo do not have. Leo has no family at all. He's been pretty much abandoned. And Tansy has a fractured family with harsh, almost punitive expectations for her. And Cole has this family that loves him, maybe to a fault, you know, and wants to just hug on him and keep him safe. And they're only angry that he's chosen to become an adventurer because the mom lost her brother that way. And so she never wanted any of her kids to become an adventurer. And that was one of those things that she raised them. Never do this. Now Cole's gone and done this, and she's heartbroken about the decision he's made. But he's the one that comes from a loving family, but he has siblings that he perceives are doing better than he is. He feels like he's a failure on some level because he's not been able to do anything well. He just questions, questions, questions, but he is. Doing things. He has done things. He has managed to train up skills even before they made this decision to become adventurers. He has killed bosses. And Richard, the banana slug, chooses him to be his companion. Richard chooses him. And we know there's something big with Richard because Richard appears to know quote unquote the system. And we find that out. So Richard is important in some way. Richard knows the system.

SPEAKER_03 23:18

And he claims to be immortal.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

He is immortal. And besides Richard choosing him, one of the two queens that had existed, the dead one, her spirit chooses Cole and gives Cole her ring and slips it on Cole's finger and chooses Cole in some way to be the bearer of her ring, which becomes significant as part of the story. And Cole is constantly being chosen. And so there is an aspect where his self-doubt and his self-critiquing and self-criticism become selfish and harmful, not just to himself, but to everyone around him. Because at one point he rejects Richard because he discovers that in the labeling of the team, Richard is not his pet. Richard is his sponsor. And so it's like Richard's pet. And that is so abhorrent to him that it's humiliating that he would be the pet of the sentient banana slug. But the sentient banana slug that happens to be an immortal who has lived for hundreds of years chose him to be his companion. Somehow that doesn't process with Cole, that Richard could have chosen anyone in the group. I don't think he chose Cole because Cole's pathetic and needed help. I think he chose Cole for a specific reason. But Cole can't see past his own nose to get that. So Cole becomes a very frustrating character for me.

SPEAKER_03 24:44

Yeah, but you're very much right when you say that it's kind of a product of the society that he lives in. I feel like it is a society that really shames failure and leaves no room to fail. And in a society like that, that won't allow you to fail the natural way, it makes success a very exclusive achievement. And even becoming adventurers, when they become adventurers, there's very little room to fail there either. They've got three days to do this trial dungeon or else they die because they have failed to complete their content. And then they've got three chances to succeed in the dungeon or else they die. There is just no room at all for failure in the society. So the fact that he goes in with this really, really internalized pressure on himself and internalized shame makes a lot of sense to me.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

I agree. And then the opposite response or a tangential response from Tansy is her obsessive compulsiveness when it comes to practice, practice, practice and work, work and that type A personality she's developed. Where Cole has maybe been a little type B and self-doubts and self-critiques, Tansy is up all hours of the night practicing the skills obsessively because that's what her family made her do in order to reach the level she reached. And so her method of not failing or obsessing about not failing is to practice, practice, practice, practice, practice all the time on penalty of failure, because she's still struggling with some of her spells and making them work at the right time. And she's very fragile as far as her health is concerned. And when I say that, I mean her level of health points or stamina, that she knows she has to be spot on with the things she can offer the group. So she's practicing obsessively and never letting up. And she is the group leader because of her obsessive need to organize and strategize and lead. And that is what she's doing to like manage everything. So her response is another type of annoyance and frustration because she can't ever let up. Ever.

SPEAKER_03 26:56

Whereas I relate to Cole, on the other hand, because so many times in my life, I have made the choice to fail for lack of trying rather than try and fail. And I'm filled with a lot of regrets for that. But that's his side of the coin, I think. And then you got Leo, who has always been pretty good at the things that the society doesn't deem very important, but has never really accomplished the things that the society holds at a higher value. And society has always kind of felt sorry for him.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

Well, he's never stuck with anything long enough to get really good at it.

SPEAKER_03 27:32

Right, exactly. And when he finally does have this chance, like we said, he kind of becomes a defensive dick.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Yes. And he eventually turns away from his friends.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

Yeah, yeah. And that's a really messy situation because of course you've got Cole on the one hand lying left and right to him, and yet he's trying to do the right thing. He's just doing it the wrong way. But frankly, when you create a situation where you are so sensitive that everybody feels like they have to walk on eggshells around you so as not to upset you, people will lie to you to make you happy. If you want the truth, you've got to be able to handle the truth. And then you got Leo doing this thing that seems so like wrong. Wrong. How could you not see how wrong it is? And the first red flag that came to me was when he had almost zero compassion until he saw it with his own eyes, but on the orphanage that they try to help.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:25

I was like, ooh, okay, that's a red flag. That says something about a person's character. You know, that that he was so not on board with helping these people who clearly needed help, which is what a hero, an adventurer, should is the purpose. But he's in it for the glory and proving something to the world and to himself about his value. And perhaps one of the byproducts of growing up having nothing can be becoming then a very selfish person when you finally do start having something for yourself. And I think that's where he's at mentally.

Leo’s Break And The Orphanage Quest

SPEAKER_01 28:57

Right. And that is where we have a division of the group. And Leo is the one that fractures off, and it becomes the intention of now being an adventurer. And they meet Andrew along the way, who is the wayfinder. And that's how they get into the orphanage. And as a wayfinder, Andrew takes the jobs that some people may not want to take, but he's specifically taking jobs to find these kids, to seek out and find children that may be lost and bring them back. So he is working with this orphanage to find children that have gotten lost in this dungeon, that have gotten captured. And so he's looking for this one little girl when he runs into Cole. And Cole's response is to invite him into the party. Andrew will help them get through the dungeon because he's an experienced adventurer and he can spot all these traps. And then Cole and the rest of the party will help get this little girl and get her back to the orphanage. And then they plan to help the orphanage by giving them some money and helping them in general because they need assistance because they've got too many mouths to feed and they're struggling because of all these kids that need to be helped.

SPEAKER_03 30:12

And there's a bunch of refugees that have been displaced that have suddenly come upon them. And so they're like sleeping in tents outside of the actual building and things like that. It's a terrible situation.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Correct. And Cole's automatic reaction is we have to help these people.

SPEAKER_03 30:25

And Tansies.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

So for both of them being an adventurer, they fall in line with Andrew, who they've met, and they fall straight into this idea that the whole purpose of doing this has to be to do good. And so if I'm able to do this good, then I am pursuing this object of being a hero. Leo wants the loot and the glory. And the glory. He wants to have the dungeon glory and he wants to get the gold and he wants to walk away in triumph. And he is annoyed by the side quest. He doesn't want to do the side quest with the kids. And so you do see a division in goals, a division in purpose, and that becomes an even larger division toward the end when Leo is willing to willfully pursue innocent life simply for glory and loot and status, and Cole is not.

SPEAKER_03 31:19

And it comes down to the question of then what does success really look like in the end?

SPEAKER_01 31:24

And Leo achieves worldly success. Leo achieves worldly success because by the end, he is rubbing elbows with real life adventurers and real life heroes, quote unquote. The people that have money, they've got high-class armor, and he is too cool for school, and he wants nothing to do with his old friends because he's a paladin and he's going to conquer the world. And now he has a reputation that people admire instead of being the loser that everyone felt sorry for. But Tansy and Cole and Meredith and Ash have chosen to continue to take these quests to help along the way. And they don't have the glory. And I guess in a world where there are so many people that need help and there are so many wrongs and injustices, I'd rather be a Cole or a Tansy or a Meredith or an Ash.

SPEAKER_03 32:21

And what I loved about Cole and Tansies and all this, their efforts to do the next right thing. I love the fact that even though their intent was to do the next right thing, they don't always actually do the right thing.

Do Intentions Beat Outcomes

SPEAKER_01 32:32

No, they don't. Sometimes they screw it up in a massive way.

SPEAKER_03 32:36

Which I think brings us to one of our discussion questions here. Is this intentions matter more than outcomes when judging a person's actions? What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 32:44

I think the outcomes matter, but I think we have to consider the intentions. And especially when you're dealing with a group of people that are still trying to figure things out, going forward to do something with good intentions is better than sitting on your ass and doing nothing. So the fact that they are trying to do the right thing and they have good intentions is commendable. And I think that they will get better as time progresses. So when I look at Cole and company, then my thought for them is okay, you've made some mistakes. Your intentions were good, but you kind of didn't get the outcome that would have been hoped for. All right, so we don't give up, we try again. I would expect that the next time is better because otherwise we go to the road to hell is paved with good intentions. So I do believe outcomes matter. Eventually, you have to work hard enough to get to the outcome that people need from you. So, for instance, if they were going to stay there and continue to work with the orphans, then they would need to become like Andrew, and they would need to be veteran adventurers who could go out and get the job done for that community over and over and over again. They would take on that responsibility. They would need to build themselves up and they would need to become better for those kids that can't do it for themselves. But initially, their intentions are commendable.

SPEAKER_03 34:11

Yeah, and I think there are degrees of intention, of good intentions. So we're talking good intentions don't mean pure intentions.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

No.

SPEAKER_03 34:20

Right? As long as they struggle with some of those self-doubt, deeply internalized insecurities and those voices in their head, they're always going to be going into things with a mixed intention, really. Because when you go into something, you need to prove something to yourself, whether you're doing the good thing for the right reasons or not, you might not be going about it the way that you would if your intentions were pure and you were thinking clearly and you were preparing the right way, et cetera. And so the degree to which their likelihood of failure is directly related, in my opinion, to how they navigate those feelings and those intentions that are driving them forward. And so I think we'll see an evolution in their stumbling up, as it's called. Right. Um, as they learn more about themselves and the kind of person that they want to be.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

Right. And I think it's in the title itself when Reckwell titles this book Stumbling Up. The idea is that we are on our way up. We're not on our way down. So while we may be stumbling, we are going to stumble to a better place ultimately. And that's the goal. And up doesn't have to be where the money is and where the power is. Up needs to be where we're able to actually do more good than we were able to do before. But I think this book really does give us a real insight into the struggles we all go through when it comes to what we are and are not able to do in our lives, what it looks like just to live day to day and really feel like you haven't accomplished very much. What am I doing with my life? Like, is my job worth anything? Will anyone ever remember me? Am I doing anything important? Am I successful? Is my life meaningful in any way? And these characters grapple with that, and then they try to step out and do something more meaningful, and they suck at it and they try to figure it out. And that is really what you've got going on. And I love the fact that they try to take action, they try to do something, and they try to do something meaningful that will help other people. They, as kids, you know, may have thought it would have been, I'm gonna kill the monster and everyone's gonna love me, and they realize that's not what it is anymore, and they have much more adult perspective and they just have to figure things out. It really does show us that real life struggle.

SPEAKER_03 36:40

I think this book asks us to consider an important question, and that is whether or not the idea of the quote unquote hero is really just a social construct that doesn't really exist except in our minds, because even the most successful people struggle with self-doubt. And the more you try to mask that, the less of a hero you really are. You know, I I think I think it's very real. This is a very real world. I think more of us in the world are more like these characters than the quote unquote heroes that we pretend exist somewhere in our mind.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

I agree. And I think when we create epic heroes, as we did hundreds of years ago with characters like Beowulf, and as we continue to do with superheroes like Superman or Captain America, when we create epic heroes who have these otherworldly abilities, we create savior personas that allow us to abdicate responsibility and believe that there's someone greater than we are.

SPEAKER_03 37:41

Someone better for the job.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

That's better for the job that is going to save the day and rescue us. And the truth is, there's not a hero like that out there. There is you and there is me and there is the person next to you, and everyone has to rise to the occasion to make the world a better place. Superman is not swooping in anytime soon.

SPEAKER_03 38:03

So, do you think these characters are brave or just have no other options?

SPEAKER_01 38:08

I think it takes bravery to act. I think that Cole could have continued in his cooking job making gruel and serving out mush or whatever to the customers, and he could have just kept going back and forth to work. I think Tansy could have kept weaving and doing the things her family wanted her to do. I think in taking the step forward, that took bravery. Now, what they do from this point forward, that they choose whether they have options or not. They choose to be brave or kind of settle for the status quo as adventurers. I think they're choosing to be brave by choosing to try to do good, whereas they could have just chosen for the status quo. And I think that's what Leo has done is gone with not the bravery, but he's gone the safer route where he has chosen the I have no other options except to check these boxes so I can fulfill the paladin thing so that I can make a name for myself. So he's kind of gone the this is all I've got. I have no other option, so I must do this. I think the rest of the group, Cole, Tansy, Meredith, Ash, they have been brave because they said we can make a choice and we choose to do the most good here. So I would say there's bravery being exercised there because they've chosen to act outside of what would have been easiest for them.

SPEAKER_03 39:30

Yeah, I agree. I think the concept of bravery is a little bit like the concept of concept of hero. It's not this innate quality that somebody has or doesn't. It looks like doing the next right thing, whether you succeed or not. And they do that.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

Yes, I agree. So let's not depend on a perfect hero. I'd feel safer in the company of people like Cole who are trying to do the next right thing and have the right intentions than I would with someone like Leo who's willing to do whatever it takes to look good.

SPEAKER_03 40:01

Not to put too point on it, but um I've seen the power of narcissism at work in the world, and it's not the kind of person that I want leading me.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

No.

SPEAKER_03 40:10

Or leading my country.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

Right.

SPEAKER_03 40:12

So I'll take a cole over a narcissist any day.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

100%.

Next Read And Listener Shoutout

SPEAKER_03 40:17

Okay, Liz. I think it's time for you to tell us what we're going to read next time.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

So I'm kind of excited because one of our listeners is a former student of mine. I'm going to give a shout out to her, Aaliyah. And she had sent me a handful of books that she has read that she said you should read them and then do one of them or all of them on your podcast. And so I have chosen our next book from that list, and we are going to read and discuss I Who Have Never Known Men by Jacqueline Hartman. And I am really excited about this. I started looking at it, and the storyline really intrigues me. So that's what we will be discussing next time, and then we will pick up another one from there. So thank you, Aaliyah, for the recommendation. And we will talk to you guys next time about I Who Have Never Known Men.