Lit on Fire
“Welcome to Lit on Fire — the podcast where literature meets controversy, where banned books, silenced voices, and dangerous ideas refuse to stay quiet. From classrooms to courtrooms, novels to news cycles, we explore how stories challenge power, expose injustice, and ignite social change.
Our logo — a woman bound atop a burning stack of books — isn’t just an image. It’s a warning and a promise. A warning about what happens when voices are erased… and a promise that stories, once lit, are impossible to put out.
So if you’re ready to question, to argue, to feel uncomfortable, and to think deeper — you’re in the right place. This is - Lit on Fire.
Lit on Fire
Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury
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If Fahrenheit 451 is “just” a book about censorship, why does it feel more accurate every time you open your phone? We read Ray Bradbury’s most overquoted dystopian novel as a warning about something harder to fight: a culture that willingly trades depth for speed, thought for noise, and meaning for constant entertainment.
Elizabeth and Peter are joined by special guest Steve Hahn, a former literature teacher turned cybersecurity instructor, to unpack what Bradbury gets right about self-censorship, social approval, and the slow slide into apathy. We walk through Montag’s unraveling after Clarisse asks the question that should scare all of us: “Are you happy?” From Mildred’s numb “happiness” and wall-sized TV “family” to a society that barely notices it’s at war, the book sketches a world where distraction becomes a lifestyle and critical thinking becomes suspicious.
We also dig into the darker corners: Beatty as a smart antagonist who can quote what he condemns, propaganda that rewrites history, and how “truth” collapses when people stop reading. Then come the scenes that still hit like a match: the woman who chooses to burn with her books, the “Dover Beach” breakdown in the parlor, and the closing image of people becoming living books after the city falls. We end with Bradbury’s companion story “The Pedestrian” and the idea of knowledge as a candle, not a bonfire.
Listen, then share this with a reader who’s been doomscrolling lately, and if you like what we’re building, subscribe and leave a review. What’s one habit you want to change to protect your attention?
Introducing Stephen Hahn The Teacher
SPEAKER_03Welcome back. Tonight on Lid on Fire, we're throwing gasoline on one of the most overquoted, misunderstood, and disturbingly prophetic novels ever written. Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury. This is the book everyone claims is about censorship. But what if that's the comfortable answer? What if Bradbury's real warning wasn't about governments banning books, but about people choosing not to read them? Choosing speed over depth, noise over thought, and entertainment over reflection, outrage over understanding. Because in Fahrenheit 451, the world doesn't collapse under tyranny alone. It burns because people stop caring. They drown themselves in endless stimulation, shallow conversations, wall-sized entertainment, and curated emotional reactions until critical thought becomes inconvenient. And honestly, that hits a little bit too close to home. This is a novel written before smartphones, social media algorithms, doom scrolling, influencer culture, and AI-generated content, and somehow it still feels like Bradbury looked directly into the future and said, You will beg for distraction while calling it freedom. Tonight, we're asking the uncomfortable questions. Is censorship even necessary when people self-censor for comfort and social approval? Are we preserving literature or embalming it? Do modern audiences actually want difficult books or just books that validate what they already believe? And in a culture addicted to instant reaction, is deep reading becoming an act of rebellion? Because Fahrenheit 451 isn't just about burning books. It's about burning curiosity, burning nuance, burning memory, burning the parts of ourselves that require patience, discomfort, and thought. And maybe the most dangerous part? The firemen aren't the only ones holding the matches. All right. Well, before we get to our discussion, we have to announce that we have another special guest with us today, someone very close to my co-host, Elizabeth Hahn. Why don't you go ahead and introduce him?
SPEAKER_00So it is like the dual episodes of the spouses. So today we have my husband Stephen Hahn with us. And Steve is a self-provested introvert, so he's here by force to a certain extent. I told him he has to come on because he is also a high school teacher. He used to teach literature. Now he teaches cybersecurity. He's one of like those dark spy types, but he teaches cybersecurity. He is retired Air Force and has all kinds of cool background stuff going on. But when he taught literature, we used to collaborate together and teach Fahrenheit 451. So he does have background in this, even though he's claiming he's a bit rusty. So, Steve, even though you're an introvert, you can say hello now. Hello now. Okay, there. So yes, he's he does jokes too.
SPEAKER_03I have a feeling I'm gonna be very quiet this episode.
SPEAKER_00No, he's not.
SPEAKER_02Well, now, in all honesty, I have to admit that uh the reason I don't teach literature anymore is because uh I was, you know, too much in my wife's shadow because she's like a real teacher and I was too much of a poser. So uh we'll see what we can do here tonight to hold my own at least.
SPEAKER_00All right.
SPEAKER_03Well, Liz, it's your turn to give a synopsis of this, so why don't you go ahead?
Characters Style And Why It Works
SPEAKER_00So I am going to not try to synopsize the great Ray Bradbury too much before we get into the real discussion. But this is clearly a dystopian book. Ray Bradbury is looking into the future at the possibility of a society where books are indeed illegal, but he is not looking at a society where the government censors books, even though clearly the books are illegal. He's looking at a society where people have really stopped reading books. And we are introduced to the main character Montag right at the very beginning, and he is a fireman. Except in this society, firemen do not put out fires because everything is fireproof, down to the houses. Firemen burn books, the one group of things that are not fireproof, the books that are supposed to be all gone, that the society no longer wants. So firemen seek out books that are hidden and they burn them in great piles. And we meet Montag right up front burning a pile of books. Now, Montag does this day in and day out. Maybe one of the most famous lines right at the beginning is when he says, it is a pleasure to burn. But you question right away whether it truly is a pleasure. There is something nagging Montag in the back of his mind. And that is really brought to the surface when he happens to run into this young woman on the street. Her name is Clarisse. She's only 17 years old, but she's out walking around, which no one does anymore because everyone's just watching TV inside, because that's what people do in this society. Sound familiar? And Clarisse is out walking and she's enjoying nature and she's asking inquisitive questions. And she's the first one to ask Montag, are you happy? Have you ever been in love? And Montag is indeed married, but it makes him question because he realizes he's not happy. And this starts a domino effect of things that Montag begins to experience and think about. And it leads to this question: what is in a book? What is so bad that we no longer read these books? And that becomes a question that eats at Montag that kind of leads us into all the action of this story. And there's just so much to discuss. And I told Peter that it feels wrong that this wasn't our first episode because it's so rooted in the very image that we work with for our logos. So I'm so excited that we're going to discuss this. So that's going to move us right into our copile section. And we're going to start right away with the characters. And since Peter's the one who's read this most recently, I've got to ask him right away who was your favorite character with this, Peter?
SPEAKER_03Well, I mean, I think Montauk was my favorite character. I mean, I found him, his whole existential crisis very fascinating. Of course, Bradbury's writing is incredibly descriptive and very word pictures kind of to describe emotions and thoughts that he has. And I thought that was really interesting. So, I mean, and of course, Clarice, of course, being the sort of disturbance, this sort of light in the darkness for this really dark, meaningless existence that Bradbury describes was an interesting, although brief, character.
SPEAKER_00Right. And I find Bradbury's characters to be very archetypal. I think that Steve and I dealt with this when we were teaching it way back when, but you have these beautifully kind of designed characters. Montag is clearly our protagonist, our kind of hero character, and Clarice is kind of the one who triggers his call to action. You know, if we have kind of a somewhat dystopian hero quest of sorts, and then we have the mentor that comes in later with Faber, and you have Beatty as kind of the antagonist. But even though you've got these kind of very archetypal characters, they are very well developed by Bradbury. I don't know. What was your thought on characters, Steve?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, it's funny. You mentioned the two that I was going to say. I really like Faber as uh probably too reflective of my own personality, and um and Beatty. Beatty is maybe a classic sort of Darth Vader character in the background there. He's underexplored, I think.
SPEAKER_03I got I got the kind of devil on your shoulder, sort of. He is the propaganda machine for the society. Uh he's their Bible, their playbook.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and then I think there's a little bit more, like Steve says, to scratch away with Beatty too. And we'll talk about that on the flip side in the spoiler episode. The atmosphere you already alluded to, because Bradbury does this wonderful word picture thing throughout the book, whether it's the symbolism of a dandelion or the rain as Clarice is walking in the rain, the leaves outside that are falling. He beautifully paints these very brief pictures, the ashes that are on Montag's face when he is burning the books. The atmosphere that he paints is so imagery-driven that I feel his atmospheres that he sets, the moods that he sets in the book. I know that students always had a hard time really understanding that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, as you talk about that, I flash back to one of the first things that always struck me is if uh he's very good at you know describing these scenes, except that sometimes student it's lost on students because of the time, you know. For example, right in the very beginning when they talk about him as being a minstrel man, and I get this, you know, immediate, you know, always covered in charcoal and blackened from the soot and ashes, and the kids are all looking at me, and I'm like, Well, what is that? You have to explain that to them.
SPEAKER_00So and it's very time-specific and dated, you know, as far as the image is concerned.
SPEAKER_03His writing style is almost like a mix of prose and poetry.
SPEAKER_00It is.
SPEAKER_03It's why you have to interpret so many of the scenes in the pictures that he's painting, because he's describing things in ways that you would hear more in poetry than you would typically in normal writing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a short book, but you have to work to get through it. You have to work to get through it because of the the poetry and prose style. And I agree with you, Peter. I think that it is strongly poetic. He also doesn't let you know who's talking and when they're talking half the time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, it's very fluid, I was going to say that, and that's the other thing that's a challenge with the book is that often you're you're trying to track who's there. I didn't find that distracting at all, but that may be a function of my age.
SPEAKER_03The only time I found it difficult was when it was a conversation between him and Faber.
SPEAKER_00Right. And they kind of go back and forth and you're trying to track who's saying what.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it has to be very, you know, inferential. You're you're inferring all the time, okay, this person is would be the one saying this, and this one would be the one saying that, but he does fluidly kind of go from thing to thing. So the writing style is complex, but also beautifully written, and so you just kind of have to flow with it.
SPEAKER_03The plot is quick. It goes from one day he's living his normal, complacent, status quo life to the next day he's starting to question everything. And the trigger is just this one person, Clarice, who has him do something that almost no one in his society does, which is self-reflect. And the moment he turns his eye inward, everything about his life begins to collapse.
SPEAKER_00Right. It begins to change immediately.
SPEAKER_03And then it's an absolute train wreck after that. And I found it really fascinating.
SPEAKER_02I find that it's not that different from you know having these moments in your life when you suddenly have, you know, things happen to you and all of a sudden it does a radical shift in your thinking and everything else. So it's not jarringly so. It's it is it is natural, even though it flows, you're right, very quickly. I think what moves that along and makes that, you know, somewhat problematic is that there's also this subplot going on in the background that if you don't pick up on it, or we if you do pick up on it, that also is moving at a rapid pace. So you've got kind of these parallels going on that throw things off.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, there's a lot of things going on in layers in this book.
SPEAKER_03And that builds the intrigue.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And there is a lot of intrigue. Like you're trying to figure out the motivations of different people, you're trying to figure out what is going on with the society, what is going on with Montag, how how far is he down this road, the relationships, who is who is on what side, who is in what corner, the mechanical hound. There are a lot of things that are going on with the intrigue. It is definitely there. And I want to say one thing about the pacing, like with the plot. I love that Bradbury can somehow convincingly do something as simple as one, two, three, four, five, six, seven in his writing. Actually say that in a sentence to advance a week. Right. Like he does that. And and it's believable to me as a person. And that maybe flows into our logic because as a person, as a working person who goes in and out of my day, and you said the things that happen to us that just radically change, Steve. And those are natural things that happen to us, and then suddenly we're shaken up. I can see that in my week. You know, something happens on one weekend, and then one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, I'm at the next weekend as I'm propelled forward. And so when he does that in a simple sentence with Montag, I can feel that in a very believable, logical way at the same time. How did you feel about the logic?
SPEAKER_03Well, as a person who is experiencing a severe amount of disillusionment with his whole life and everything that he has accepted and believed up to this point, I think he acts about as well as he possibly can in the situation. He does some angry, irrational things, but I believe them because he's in crisis. And then when he ultimately does the big thing that he can't go back on, I was thinking to myself, that's exactly what I would have done in that situation. So I I I think that it does follow a very logical progression as far as the story story goes.
SPEAKER_00Enjoyment. Is this a book we naturally enjoy?
SPEAKER_03Oh no.
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_03I mean, it I I enjoy things that make me think, and this one and this one does.
SPEAKER_00I think, like you said in the intro. No. In the like you said in the intro, this hits very close to home.
SPEAKER_02Yes. I look forward to teaching this every year, and and I enjoyed because typically with me, I I have to reread something before I do it. So this is, you know, I apologize to your audience at this point because I am doing this cold turkey. I it's hard to say it's not, you know, there are parts of it that are enjoyable.
SPEAKER_00I read it every year with my students. That means that since I teach this every single, there's not been a year so far in my teaching that I haven't taught this. That means I've taught this 20 years. So I know this book quite well, and I have never ceased to find something new as I read it. And I think that says something about Ray Bradbury. So I would say that I enjoy it because I still enjoy teaching it. I have this wonderful class of seniors graduating this year, and I taught them for three years of their English, like this particular group of seniors. And I can't tell you how many of them say to me, you know, of all the books we read, of all the plays, all the books, the one book that we love the most was Fahrenheit 451. And they say that almost every year. That is their favorite book. And it's because of the discussions we have, and because they get into debates about different things related to our society, and they see how it's applicable, how it connects. And I think that says something about Ray Bradbury and his forethought. There's a whole television show, Prophets of Science Fiction, or Prophetic Voices of Science Fiction. And Ray Bradbury is one of those people they talk about all the time. I mean, I don't think the man doomed us, but I think on one level he was a prophet of watching the human race when television came to be a thing, and then projecting the things that we would face. And he wrote Fahrenheit, and the students are really good at connecting. So for all of us that feel all the time that as we look at young people and we're like, oh dear God, you know, what's happening in the future because we're lost. No, I'm teaching these students and they resonate with Fahrenheit and they hear it. And I think we keep teaching it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, you know, now on the other hand, the the scary thing that I thought of as I was coming up here going, what am I going to say to these people? One thing that that caught my attention with this as I kind of reflected on it is I'm worried that there's a certain group of students that uh we've taught over the years that instead of using this as some sort of you know prophetic uh let's let's avoid this, right? Uh that they've used it as a blueprint, uh sadly, because there are some things that I look around and I'm like, well, wait a minute, that's exactly the way that things are being, you know, are being styled. And I don't want to give away any, you know, things in the book here yet.
Lit On Fire Merch Break
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we'll get to the spoiler section. But yeah, there's a debate both ways, so it'll be interesting to get on the flip side. So that does lead us to ending our spoiler-free section and moving to the spoiler section. So we are getting to that point. So for the rest of you, catch you on the other side. Okay, quick pause. Because if you're still listening, you clearly have excellent taste or questionable judgment. Either way, we've got something for you.
SPEAKER_03That's right. Lit on fire merch is officially live, and you can now wear your literary chaos proudly.
SPEAKER_00We're talking bold designs, rebellious slogans, and just enough intellectual menace to make people nervous in public.
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SPEAKER_00Go grab yours at Litonfire Podcast-shop.forthwall.com because if you're going to burn it all down, you might as well look good doing it. Lit on fire.
SPEAKER_03I think one of the really interesting things about the book for me was that just like we said in the intro, this isn't really about government crackdown, burning books, suppressing the public fascist regime. This is a society that can only be created with societal buy-in. And it's a slow and steady aggression to this being allowed to happen.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03And like a frog boiling in water, sort of, you know, as as the temperature kind of slowly rises, it doesn't know it's being cooked to death. And that's kind of what's happened to society. And what I fear, I think, happens right now in real life as we slowly get less free thought and more being told by our entertainment what to think.
SPEAKER_00Right. I agree.
SPEAKER_03Or told by our entertainment not to think.
SPEAKER_00Right, as we're all in our filter bubbles and we cease to have critical thinking skills and we just kind of accept these things that are fed into us. Those of us, especially, that have stopped reading, which should be no one listening to this podcast. But for our society as a whole, we have certainly de-evolved when it comes to the reading and the critical thinking is concerned. So that has definitely happened here. And there are a lot of things that have faded to the background in this society that I think there are connections that can be made with ours. And that idea of being entertained to a fault, but really not being happy. Right. As a result of being entertained. And that's why the question that Clarice asks Montag at the beginning, that that tipping question when I talk to AP Lang, we call it, of course, the exigence for what happens afterwards. The tipping question for Montag is, Are you happy? And his response is, Am I what? And then after she leaves, he's like, Of course I'm happy. That's just like the stupidest thing she could have asked. Why did she ask me that? What is she talking about? Am I happy? And and he's walking along and he's mulling about it all the way home. And he walks all the way home as he's thinking about it and he's like, Why does she ask me that? What a strange child, you know, to be walking on the street and asking me this question, Am I happy? And then he gets home to find that his wife has tried to commit suicide.
SPEAKER_03Right, which just drives home the fact that his life is really a lie. Because the big lie that the society has been telling people is that we have sacrificed all these things for the sake of happiness.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03It's happiness at the cost of all diversity, all free expression, all self-reflection and free thinking. And he realizes I'm not happy, she's not happy. If none of us are happy, then why am I doing this?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, what the hell? Like, what is the point? And, you know, they're taking kind of happy pills or sedatives, kind of these anti-anxiety medications that are designed to kind of take down these feelings of discontent that they might have. And Mildred ends up taking all of those pills and he kicks that empty bottle on the floor as he walks into his bedroom. And this is one of those atmosphere moments that it's described as cold, like a mausoleum. And I always have to describe that to the children what that is, a mausoleum, you know, and we go into this whole thing. And you have this horrific image of his home life. And then these men that come over that aren't even hospital people. They're like technicians, like engineers, like mechanics. And they come over and they funnel out all her blood and put in new blood, and she'll wake up in a few hours and she'll be good as new and she won't even remember anything. And it's like the fifth one they've done like that that night. And it's not the first time Mildred has tried to commit suicide. And this is a norm because these people are not happy. And you think of mental health issues and you think of the number of antidepressants and anti-anxiety medications, and then you start thinking, how many people can legitimately say they are happy?
SPEAKER_03And Mildred is so unhappy, she doesn't even know she's unhappy because no one turns their eye inward in the society. So even her suicide is sort of this sort of mechanical thing that she does, and she kind of claims, I didn't I'd never do that. I didn't do that. I didn't do that. You I didn't take all this, I would never do that. Why would I do that?
SPEAKER_00Right. And then I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go watch my family because that's how she refers to the people on the TV. And she wants to just get completely distracted again. So that's the setup of the society. And the other thing we have to note about the society is that they are at war. While Mildred is trying to commit suicide and all she wants to do is watch her TV, and Montag's job is primarily concerned with burning books that people are trying to hide. There are jets flying overhead and there is war going on in this society. There are bombs being dropped in different places and jets and you know rockets being fired. War is happening, yet everyone is living for the next TV show. No one seems radically concerned about the war because any dire concerns are put to the side in favor of the entertainment. And so you mentioned Beatty as kind of this guy quoting the party line. And Steve, you wanted to bring up some things going on with Beatty that I think further define what is going on with the society.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well the one of the reasons I like Beatty so much is his defense of, you know, his version of history. So his his stance that there have always been firemen that and that firemen's always started fires rather than put them out. And I find that to be fascinating and I'm like, well that could never be the case. And then I reflect on things that happened today and and you look at different things that go around on the news and things and and shifts and people are like, well it's always been this way. And I'm like No, it hasn't. You know, we've lost track of what our history is based on who's who's professing, you know, particularly people that are in you know positions of power profess a a certain version of history that everybody then accepts. And they know no better because they have no written history to go to.
SPEAKER_00Right. Or they've stopped reading. Reading. Correct. Even if the written history still exists like it does in our society, someone says this is how it was. Correct.
SPEAKER_02And and they and they they believe it based on what they've seen, not based on what they know or what they've read.
SPEAKER_00Because they haven't taken the time to do it.
SPEAKER_03I think we now know better than ever that if you tell a lie often enough and loud enough and with enough conviction it becomes the truth. The new truth at least for a disturbingly large amount of people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah you emphasize it over and over and over again and then people are like yeah I heard that somewhere that must be what it was. That must be how it is.
SPEAKER_03And it only takes one post to start that fire.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And we have seen that on social media countless times. And it doesn't even have to be AI but with AI added to that then that multiplies the effect of rewriting history or rewriting what people say or reinforcing a false narrative. We have this running line that is absolutely false and yet we absolutely believe it.
SPEAKER_03Or even worse in my opinion we stop believing in anything because there's so much confusion being sown out there that people just stop having faith in anything and that's when we create that culture of apathy out of helplessness.
SPEAKER_02Yeah no I I've had recently one of these discussions with my students about uh the fact that we lack a common understanding of of history or a common narrative because everybody has now pigeonholed themselves into different locations and now it's very difficult to get anyone to believe something as uh you know being truth because there are so many different variations of what they think is the truth.
SPEAKER_00Right. And so what is the truth? People actually ask that I mean what is the truth? Let's pick and choose what the truth is I mean I have students sit in my class now and say things that I would never have thought anyone would have suggested as true. Like not that long ago and like scientific fact is this and now I have students saying the opposite thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
The Hound And Beatty’s Hidden Depth
SPEAKER_00And I'm like what what are we talking about? Well established 1790 to burn English influenced books in the colonies first fireman Benjamin Franklin and that's what Beatty says and he says the first fireman yes burning books was Benjamin Franklin if you can imagine. So so yes so Bradbury's hitting on things here besides the mass entertainment and the absolute dependence on things to make us happy that don't really make us happy we have the rewriting of history the failure to know truth you know that battle against ignorance mass ignorance and that's what this society has been taken over with. And then you start paralleling it to today and this book terrifies me more every year that I read it because it becomes more and more real.
SPEAKER_03I thought that it was really interesting these robot drone things that they've got called the hounds that like are almost like they're called the hounds but they've got like multiple legs. So I'm imagining them as kind of like almost robot fighters, yeah. Yeah and they and they have the hound at the fire station and they can program it to a biological chemical sense. Right and it'll hone in on whatever it's after. But it's interesting that Montaug has this kind of a bad relationship with the hound. He's like it doesn't like me and Beatty's like it can't not like you it can't it only can not like the things that we tell it not to like and yet it's reacting to Montag which makes me wonder if Beatty was playing with him for a long time before it all comes to a head because we do discover that he has been taking books little by little and he's got like over 20 books and Beatty kind of knows that he at least he knows he takes the last book.
SPEAKER_00Well here's the thing and this is where Steve gets into the Beatty needs to be examined more than just what we usually give him for examination. And I think it takes more than one read with the book to really get into whoity is as a person. I do think that Beatty is playing with Montag. But I think that the reason he is kind of egging Montag along and kind of maybe has the hound teasing Montag a little bit or trying to scare Montag a little bit is because Beatty needs another Beatty. Beatty knows that Montag is different than the other firemen. He is curious he is intelligent he wants to question he wants to know Beatty was Montag at one point. Right. I believe that in my soul Beatty was Montag at one point Beatty has also read the books. Beatty knows what's in the books. The difference is that Beatty chose to drink the Kool-Aid again and come back into the fold. He decided that it was better to exercise the control and be part of the society than to try to go against it because to go against it is death, right? There's it's easier to be part of it.
SPEAKER_02Right. And this is why I I you know made him like the Darth Vader there. It's because he has you know he has his own hero quest that he's going on. It's just opposite and he recognizes that Montag is the is the possible heir to his throne or it could be his his nemesis either way you know but he does he recognizes that then he has to go out and either recruit him or destroy him. That's why you get the the confrontation that you get between the two in the end is can you can you do this? Can you cross the line?
SPEAKER_00And it is almost like a Darth Vader Luke Skywalker moment. But in the end I think that Beatty can't destroy Montag because Beatty doesn't want to continue doing it alone. Beatty has made an impossible choice to ignore his own intellect and to ignore his own knowledge because Beatty is smart. Beatty knows. Beatty is self-reflective enough to know he's read enough to know and he hates these stupid people around him. He I mean he's a misanthrope at heart. I really feel that and so he hates these stupid people around him. He likes Montag. He wants Montag to be with him to join with him he needs someone else that he can talk to that he can he can like partner with because misery needs company you know on one level but he needs another intelligent person to like sit on that throne with him if you will like Palpatine needs Vader. Vader needs his son Luke. I think Vader wants to die right and in in Star Wars and I think Beatty wants to die when he stands in front of Montag and he realizes that Montag is not going to come along with him.
SPEAKER_02Well because he realizes that he's gone down the wrong path.
SPEAKER_00Right because Beatty realizes his mistake.
SPEAKER_02Yeah there's no redemption for him to come out of that except through that process.
SPEAKER_03So it's kind of a Chavier moment in a way I mean if I have chosen the wrong side I can't go on living anymore if my truth isn't the truth.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And when he realizes he can't break Montag he sees his own failure selling out the way he did.
SPEAKER_00Right. Like it it is going to leave me like I'm going to watch this man do what I should have done. He won't accept me. So that says something about me he's going to go off and he's going to resist and now I have failed. I failed on two fronts. And so when Montag is standing there with that flamethrower I think Beatty is saying do it do it because I don't want to live like this anymore. And Montag does it and it's an ugly moment. It's an ugly moment because Beatty is flopping around there on the ground and Montag is burning him to death with that flamethrower but it's cleansing by fire and it is him being burned up his knowledge I mean it's an epically symbolic moment. It is his knowledge it is his pain it is everything everything in him is also in all those books. It's all the things that society is trying to reject it's the conflict it's the pain it's the agony it's the truth and he wants to be burned also because to continue to exist is to continue to exist in all that pain.
SPEAKER_03I like the parallel once again between human beings as living books and carrying the books inside of them. Right. I thought that was that was really interesting at the end when they're like we can burn the books because we've got them in our in our hearts and our heads and we'll and we'll be the carriers that the carriers of those flames that flame of truth.
SPEAKER_00Exactly right I it's a beautiful it's a beautiful image and Beatty can't do it. Montag can. He's able to overcome that conflict overcome that idea and to face the ultimate destruction of his life and rebirth. So we get the Phoenix image right Beatty's going to be burned to ashes and not be reborn. Montag instead of going up in the fire he goes into the river and he's reborn in a baptismal way and comes up on the other side. And that's where Montag is reborn and then he is able to become that living book and leave the city and forge a new life with the other people that have made that same choice outside of the city.
SPEAKER_01And in the end which is also cleansed by fire.
SPEAKER_03Yeah exactly that's that's what I was about to say in the end it's like society itself has to be the phoenix. You know it's kind of the re it's kind of reached that burn it all down point.
The Woman Who Burns With Books
SPEAKER_00When the bomb is dropped on the city and Mildred has run off into the city and all these people that you know are holding on to their entertainment are in the city and the bomb you know a nuclear bomb or whatever type of bomb is dropped when the bomb is dropped on the city it is destroyed. And the people outside the city are the ones that will rebuild. They're the ones that will come out of those ashes to rebuild the society and they're the ones holding on to the books. So I feel like we have to talk about some things that we haven't hit on in in that particular train of thought because within those moments when Montag is going through all this we clearly have some other pivotal moments and I think the counterpart to Beatty who is burned up with the flamethrower is the woman in the books earlier on. And I think if Clarice initially lights the fire within Montag, I think the woman in the house with all the books really solidifies Montag's journey.
SPEAKER_02The way in which she is discovered is is also just tragically scary in that her neighbors turn her in. This is the way the society has has become is that people are encouraged or perhaps you know maybe there's a law that's written that you know encourages people to turn other people in that are doing something that they themselves you know don't have the courage to do or even though it's not hurting anyone. So this woman has been turned in because she's suspected of having books in her attic and the fact. Yeah she does. Now the fact of the matter is that she does she is you know a criminal but what is different in this in this particular instance is that usually they send the police in first to arrest the people but somehow this is messed up if I recall correctly and no one's gotten there to arrest her no one has gotten there to arrest her and so she won't leave. They all think she's insane and they're going through and destroying all her books and then rather than allow them to take her books out of the house she decides that she'll be the one to do it. She starts the fire.
SPEAKER_00With her on top of the books. Yeah. Which is a beautiful image because it's not a beautiful image but it is an image that fits with our logo as well that she stands there and she says I won't leave my books. These are my books. This is worth dying for and she says if you're going to burn my books you're going to have to understand that I'm standing here and I'm going to burn with them and they put kerosene all over these books. And I love what she says. She stands on those books and she makes a really really important statement to Montag and the rest of the firemen and it is on page 36 for my people that are here she says play the man Master Ridley we shall this day light such a candle by God's grace in England as I trust shall never be put out and Beatty freaks out and he's like enough of that where are they and he slaps her face and she's like you know where they are you'll you wouldn't be here and they go and they grab all the books and everything and she stands on those books and she lights the match and she goes up with the books. And it's a beautiful thing and she looks at Montag and Montag is looking at her and Montag doesn't want to leave. He doesn't know what to do and Beatty's like she's going to burn and we got to get out of here and Montag is standing there and I think there's that eye contact between the two of them and that is the moment and that candle that she lights that will never be put out that candle is lit in Montag. And Montag also remembers his mother lighting a candle when he was younger and so that candle image becomes this warmth of fire. It's different than the fire of the kerosene and the fire of the burning books. It is it is a candle it is a guiding light. And this woman becomes a guiding light. Like Clarice was on the street like the whiteness of her dress and the light that shines on her from the moon this woman lights a candle a figurative candle and Montag follows it. He follows that light from that point onward. Then he really has to know it's in the books because that woman was willing to give her life.
SPEAKER_03And I think it's the first crack in Beatty's exterior that we see as well.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03Because on the way back Montag is trying to remember exactly what she said and Beatty quotes it by heart and he even knows the reference he's like a man named Latimer said that to a man named Nicholas Ridley as they were burnt alive at Oxford for heresy on October 16th 1555 and you're okay how did he know that how did he how does he know that what is his connection now to this and then it's after that because this is the where Montag steals a book from the lady at uh before it's burned that Beatty shows up at Montag's house after he doesn't show up at work and he tells him the truth behind the lie that's always told. Right. And that's your first inclination that he is looking for another him.
SPEAKER_00Right. Absolutely and he tries in that moment to convince Montag but the end result is that Montag instead of going to Beatty as a mentor which Beatty wants in that moment he goes looking for Faber. The man he sees reading a book in the park you know covertly but he goes looking for Faber who's an English professor you know well he was when their English professors were still a thing and he wants Faber to help and of course Faber's hiding.
SPEAKER_02Right. Well he's like the Obi-Wan Kenobi.
SPEAKER_00Yeah like I I don't do that anymore.
SPEAKER_02I don't do that anymore I'm I'm hiding out here and this isn't the thing to do you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah and so he is he is like I'm not doing that and then Montag poor Faber Montag stands there and starts ripping books up and Faber panics and says no no no don't do that and and convinces and finally is convinced to listen to him because he's like please don't rip the books what does he go after ripping like a Gutenberg Bible or something? That's a Bible. Yeah. So so Faber absolutely panics. But yeah so he goes after Faber to get Faber's help as opposed to go to Beatty. And that's that's the ultimate kind of betrayal of Beatty. I mean Beatty does realize and that's what makes Beatty so angry in that final moment when he kicks the microphone piece that's connecting him to Faber out of Montag's ear because he knows that he's been rejected in favor of someone else as the mentor right and now Montag is working actively against him instead of with him. And it's that it's that betrayal moment but he goes to Faber to get that help in order to take down the system. Montag doesn't succeed in taking down the system himself but he does succeed in taking down Beatty, you know, intentionally or unintentionally and of course the system takes itself down. And I think that's kind of a beautiful thing because the people themselves not the government got rid of the books. People cause the book problem. And then the people themselves get rid of the government because of war. And then it's left to this group of people to rebuild after that that really it becomes it comes down to the people and I think that's perhaps an important lesson for us as well.
SPEAKER_03And the only reason they survive is because they've been cast out of society.
SPEAKER_00Right. Right.
Dover Beach And Montag’s Breaking Point
SPEAKER_03They would have burned with everybody else if they had not been kicked out of the city.
SPEAKER_00So right exactly so another thing that I would just touch on real quickly as far as one of my favorite scenes is concerned has to be the scene with Mildred and her friends. I can't help it. Phelps and Bowls with the Dover Beach poem. And it is Montag's freakout moment that always makes me laugh just a little bit because I feel Montag in this moment. And this is where I want to get because we're saying it comes down to the people. And I think that I feel Montag on a spiritual level when he walks into the parlor with Mildred and her friends and they're all laughing over the white clown and they've all gotten together and they're like hi hi how are you I'm great I'm great and it's just also terribly vapid. And Montag is in the midst of this revelation with reading books and he's been trying to get Mildred to join him because he's like I want to read these books with my wife. I want to try to take her along with me and go on this journey together because otherwise what is it what is it worth I'm trying to make her understand this as well. And she's just such a vapid person.
SPEAKER_03It's Clarice that sort of opens his eyes to that. You know when she talks about she goes you know sometimes I go out and I just listen to people talk and they don't say anything.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03And it's like that for everybody. Of course they say words but they're meaningless.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03And he starts to ask his wife what's the show about oh these people oh are they married? I don't know. I don't I think so what are they are they angry? Yeah they seem to be angry. What are they angry about? I'm not sure yeah it's like but isn't it wonderful?
SPEAKER_00Yeah what is happening this is my favorite show. Right. And it's just it's stupid.
SPEAKER_02Why why does this feel like every TikTok that someone tries to show me I don't know. See I always thought it was part of my age again but you know uh now now as I sit here and reflect on it I'm thinking this is exactly what the problem is for me is that they're flashing this stuff in front of me and I don't know what it is and and they're laughing and I'm like do you know anything about these people? No it's somebody throwing a football into somebody's crotch. Isn't that funny?
SPEAKER_03Okay boomer. Yeah it's hey uh Gen X six seven man six seven so it's interesting that you say do you know anything about these people? Because they're also discussing the election when he's walking into the room and Phelps and Bowles and all they have to say about the two candidates is one is short and ugly and they're not going to vote for him but the other one is so tall and handsome and well spoken and he's like do you even know what they believe in, what they stand for and they're like no I just I just know that I don't like the other person. I just don't know why. And honestly that's far more believable of an attitude than I want it to be.
Living Books Phoenix And Rebuilding
SPEAKER_00He walks in in this moment when they're talking about the white clown and they're laughing and they're tinkling their glasses and their their laughter's like the tinkling glasses and he's you know and they're doing all their things and he has a book in his hand and Faber is in his ear going you know don't do this. What are you doing? Walk away make a joke turn around leave like this is a bad life choice. I feel like you say this to me sometimes Steve when I'm starting to get militant. Yes you know you got to check your political capital on these yes I know so so Steve's always telling me to pick and choose my battles but sometimes everything's just a battle. So so he walks in there and he's looking at these vapid women and he's just over it. He's over it and he's like you guys need to wake up and do something. Okay if it's down to the people it has to be more than just me. And I feel that in my soul right if it's down to the people like everyone's got to wake up and everyone's got to do something. So he wants to wake these women up. And so as they're laughing over the white clown he whips out this book of poetry and and he stands there and the women are like what what is that? What are you doing? And Milger's like trying to make an excuse out of it like firemen are allowed to do this every once in a while you know and he's like no I'm gonna read poetry and he decides to read this Matthew Arnold poem called Dover Beach. It is this really impactful poem and I always have my students analyze the whole thing. And these two women that are there have already revealed to us the reader that they've been married more than once one of them has no children but the other one has children that hate her and she sticks them in front of the TV all the time. The other one's like had all these abortions you know one of them has had a husband that's like been killed in war or committed suicide or you know like and her third husband has just been sent off to the war that's about to begin. Right. And she's like oh he'll be back soon and if he doesn't I'll just get another one you know and they're just they don't think about anything all the time they don't let themselves feel anything. And he reads this poem that is full of feeling and I'm just gonna read what he reads The Sea of Faith was once too at the full and round Earth's shore lay like the folds of a bright girdle furled. But now I only hear its melancholy long withdrawing roar, retreating to the breath of the night wind down the vast edges drear and naked shingles of the world. Ah love let us be true to one another for the world which seems to lie before us like a land of dreams is So various, so beautiful, so new, hath really neither joy nor love nor light, nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain. And we are here as on a darkling plain, swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, where ignorant armies clash by night. Mrs. Phelps starts crying. And she's probably never cried before in her life, or at least not because she's been taking these happy pills or distracting herself or whatever. She starts crying, and the other woman gets really mad, Bowles gets really mad, and we've got all this meltdown that goes on. And these women are terribly impacted. And Faber screaming in Montag's ear. And Montag just in that moment decides to just light it up. And this is what ultimately leads to Beatty, you know, showing up and you know, burning his house and Montag ending up with that ultimate confrontation. But it is just that breaking moment for Montag. Like, I've got to do something. Something has to be done. Like people have to stop being this way. And I sometimes wonder if that's what it takes. I mean, we've talked about this on the podcast before. Like, is it just about doing that ultimate thing that burns it all down? Do you just have to light that match? You know, and I feel like this is that moment for Montag. Like, okay, forget all of this. I'm trying to play by the rules. I'm trying to be subtle. I'm trying to investigate things. I'm trying to be discreet. You know, I'm trying to make this plan with favor, but in this moment, fuck it all. I'm going to, I'm going to freak out. And so he freaks out. And this leads to everything that happens after that point. I don't know. If it's up to the people, sometimes the people just have to freak out. So I guess really what I'd say is I grow weary of things just continuing. So I can understand Montag in that moment, just wanting to throw a match in the middle of the room and say, okay, let me just shake this up because I want to try to wake these people up. Or with Faber, you know, tearing up those books to get Faber to do something because he's tired of the good people being complacent. And he is in that moment the person that makes it awkward. And I've had to be that person. And no one likes you when you're the person that makes it awkward. But until someone decides to make it awkward and say it's not right, you know, what happens? You know, it just kind of continues to be on the same loop all the time. And people continue talking about nothing, nothing at all, and nothing changes.
SPEAKER_03I thought that was a really poignant moment at the end of the book when Montag has left the city and he's met up with these other sort of outcasts, these professors and these scholars and these poets and things like that, and they're walking through the woods together, and they're talking about the imminent war. And Montag says, he says, My wife is back there. And it's strange, I don't think that I'll miss her. It's strange, I don't feel much of anything, said Montag. Even if she dies, I realized a moment ago, I don't think I'd feel sad. It isn't right. Something must be wrong with me. And Granger, the guy that he's talking to, starts to talk about how he mourned his grandfather and why he mourned his grandfather because he was a kind man and he was a sculptor and he created so many things and he put so many good things into the world. And now that he was gone, he would no longer be able to do that and have that impact any longer on the world. And it's very telling because one of the reasons why Montag can't bring up any kind of emotion towards his wife is because she is nothing. She's an empty shell. She's a blank book. And that's why these women don't care about their husbands or their children or even really each other or even what's on TV, because they're literally blank pages. And so in a way, when they burn, there's really no loss at all because they've given nothing for they've given nothing to the world with their lives.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, it's all artificial constructs. They've, you know, they they've engaged in in these actions, but there's nothing behind them. So they're yes, they're married, but you know, you get that back in the beginning when we talk about the mausoleum in their in their bedroom. It's like there's there is no passion in that room or anything else. It's just this action that you you conduct to because it's something that's expected. There's nothing behind it.
The Pedestrian And The Lighted House
SPEAKER_00Right. Well, I think this is a fascinating book. It's worth reading. We have not hit on everything in this book. There would have been so much more to say about Clarice, so much more to say about several things that that we could have hit on, but that can be left for your own analysis and your own thoughts. Are there any closing moments we would like to do before we close out the podcast?
SPEAKER_02Well, one of the things that probably we would be remiss if we didn't talk about the companion piece that Bradbury wrote called The Pedestrian, that uh both you and I always used to use in class as kind of an introductory piece to this short story where it kind of reflects what's going on in that society. And I I don't know how much we won't want to give away in it, but basically it's uh about a man who is outside a society and while he walks around in his neighborhood and and stares at all the houses that are, you know, glowing from the TV sets, uh, he gets arrested for uh basically being, you know, walking without a reason uh or a purpose. And a lot of that uh is is reflected in the book, you know, and and you can you can see that as people that are outside of what the norm is are the ones that are attacked by the the government or the society and and left to their own devices there.
Next Read And Final Sendoff
SPEAKER_00And his name is Leonard Meade, and he's actually mentioned in Fahrenheit 451, not by name, but because Clarice refers to her uncle, who was a pedestrian. And Bradbury often interconnects a lot of his stories. And so the pedestrian was written and then Fahrenheit was written afterwards, and the pedestrian provides some amount of inspiration for what he talks about with Clarice. And I think maybe a closing thing to talk about would be one of my favorite moments in the pedestrian that I think Clarice also gives us, and maybe something we need to consider in our own world, and that is when Leonard is arrested at the end of the piece and the police car is driving him away to take him to the Center for Regressive Tendencies, the Psychiatric Center for Regressive Tendencies. They pass by his house and he knows it's his house because every single light in the entire house is turned on in a dark city where otherwise the only glowing lights are television sets, but all the other lights are turned off. But his house is lit up like a beacon with every single light turned on. And Clarice kind of similarly describes their house in Fahrenheit 451 as she is also described as being a light in the way she looks on the street. And I think there's something to be said about that here at the end of our podcast about that light being shown. And in this case, it's not the light of some blazing fire in the context of this book. It's that light of a candle and and brighter, it's the illumination of knowledge. And it's the illumination of spreading that light, that light that spreads and it shines out enough to the house next to yours and the house next to that. And I think that's what we are called to do. And I think that's some of what we're trying to do in this podcast. So I'll leave it at that. So, Peter, what are we reading next time?
SPEAKER_03So, next time we are going to read a brand new book by author Jay Krause called Founders Edition Lighting the Forge.
SPEAKER_00And I'm super excited. I've been reading that. I think, are you already done? Yes. You're already done. He's always faster than me. So I've been reading it. It is Well, you have a real job. Yes, I do. I have a job where I don't get to like listen to things all the time or read things all the time, but I'm busy reading things with my students. So and unfortunately, I can't use Jay Krauss's book. But I'll get it done and we're gonna look forward to talking to you about that next time. Until then, keep reading. Keep thinking, and we look forward to talking to you soon.