Lit on Trial 3: The Decline of Literacy

A student films a simple reading challenge at a prep school, classmates stumble over words many of us would call everyday, and the school’s response turns the whole thing into a national spotlight. That viral moment kicks off a bigger question we can’t dodge: are we watching deep literacy fade in real time, not because people can’t decode words, but because our culture no longer rewards sustained attention and complex thought?

We break down the difference between basic literacy and functional literacy, then get brutally honest about what it looks like in classrooms right now even in AP and honors settings. From cultural illiteracy to the Bradbury warning in Fahrenheit 451, we trace how entertainment systems, algorithms, and constant distraction can train us to consume information without building meaning. We also talk about why reading and writing matter beyond school: books expand the human experience we can recognize, strengthen empathy, and make it harder for anyone to hand us a ready-made narrative.

Then we move from diagnosis to repair. We debate what parents can realistically do, how poverty and time pressure shape outcomes, how “pass everyone” incentives can create graduates who are functionally illiterate, and what a real reset could look like inside curriculum and policy. We also share practical on-ramps, including letting kids read what they’ll actually finish, using audiobooks as a bridge, and pointing adults to support like the National Literacy Directory at nld.org.

If you care about reading comprehension, attention span, media literacy, and the health of democracy, hit play. Subscribe, share this with a friend who says they “don’t read,” and leave a review with the book that brought you back.

Transcript

Literacy On Trial Sets The Stakes

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome back. Tonight we're putting something on trial that may already be dying in front of us. Literacy itself. Not the ability to decode words, not the ability to skim captions, scrolling headlines, or survive with autocorrect and voice to text. We're talking about deep literacy, sustained reading, complex thought, the ability to wrestle with ideas longer than a TikTok clip, or an algorithmically enhanced dopamine hit. Because the numbers are ugly. Reading scores in the United States have fallen to historic lows. Fewer Americans read for pleasure than at any point in modern history. Students increasingly struggle to finish novels, sustain attention, analyze arguments, or tolerate ambiguity. And tonight we're asking the uncomfortable question: is this an educational crisis or a cultural choice? Because literacy does not collapse in isolation. It collapses when a society begins valuing speed over depth, reaction over reflection, content over comprehension, consumption over contemplation. We built a world of infinite scrolling, short-form outrage, algorithmic entertainment, and constant distraction, then acted shocked when people stopped reading books. But education is on trial too. Did schools abandon rigor in pursuit of engagement? Did we confuse accessibility with the elimination of challenge? Have standardized testing, political battles, phone addiction, and collapsing attention spans created a generation that can process information but not meaning? And maybe the most dangerous question of all, what happens to democracy, empathy, and independent thought when people no longer read deeply enough to challenge the narratives fed to them? Because readers are difficult to control. Readers compare. Readers question. Readers notice contradictions. Readers sit in discomfort long enough to think. And maybe that's why a culture built on speed and outrage no longer has much use for them. So tonight we're stepping into the fire. Is America becoming post-literate? Can schools reverse this trend? Is social media destroying attention spans? And are we witnessing the slow death of one of civilization's most important skills? This is lit on trial, and tonight literacy is in the flames.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

As a debate coach and an English teacher, I think one of the first things we need to do is really set some foundation here, and that starts by really defining some things. So let's talk about what literacy is. First of all, we have two different types of literacy. Basic literacy is defined by Merriam Webster as the fundamental mechanical ability to read, write, and comprehend simple texts. So that's your basic reading and writing ability. Then functional literacy is the practical capacity to read, write, and use numbers at a level of proficiency necessary to function effectively on the job within a family and in society. So you have basic literacy, the basic skill of reading and writing, and then functional literacy, which means you can use that and actually apply it in daily life. Then, of course, we move to different types of literacies beyond that.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

And I guess what got us thinking about this subject was a recent video on TikTok that went viral. A student in a preparatory school in Philadelphia named Menveca Kosia posted a video showing his classmates struggling to read a sentence that reads, She wore a silhouette of clothes that were extraordinary but somewhat gauche. And this video went viral, and the school reacted by threatening expulsion, banning him from prom, and refusing to allow him to graduate, saying that he humiliated the school district, showed a video out of context, and violated the right to privacy of the students. Which kind of had a Barbara Streisand effect on the school, of course, because if you don't know the Barbara Streisand effect, she sued Google Earth to have her home blurred, and

A Viral TikTok Exposes Reading Gaps

SPEAKER_01 4:00

it caused Google Earth searches for her home to spike because the lawsuit brought attention to it. So it kind of backfires, but it's an important conversation and it's back on the national stage. And that is what's got us talking about this issue today.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Right. So I have to ask a little bit more about this TikTok video. So he had these students read this sentence. They knew what he was doing, correct?

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Yes. Yeah, he was obviously filming them.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Okay. And did he tell them the purpose? Did he kind of say, Okay, I want to see if you can read this, that you can pronounce these words?

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Okay. And so there was some laughter going on, and they tried to pronounce the words and they couldn't. What were the words they struggled with the most?

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Silhouette, extraordinary, and gauche.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Okay, so those three words, silhouette, extraordinary, and gauche, they could not read. Now, gauche would be one I don't use on a daily basis, but silhouettes and extraordinary I use all the time. But I think the students use gauche.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

I'd give them credit for having difficulty reading that one. They might even hear it and know it, but not see it, not recognize it when they see it.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Right, right. So he had these students read this sentence. And did he state the percentage of students that couldn't read this? Was it pretty much all the students couldn't read the set sentence successfully?

SPEAKER_01 5:15

In the video, it's pretty much all the students.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

They can't read it.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Okay. So it is citing the fact that these students really can't read these words. Yeah. And this was an embarrassment to the school district. Yes. So what's your conclusion about that? Should the school district be embarrassed? Is has he done anything wrong?

SPEAKER_01 5:36

I don't think he's done anything wrong, especially since the students knew they were being filmed. They consented to it. And it's showing the truth of what the situation is. I think the school district should be embarrassed. But I also think that they should be taking responsibility instead of deflecting it onto the student who's clearly recognized a problem and decided to expose it.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Right. That's really interesting. And I think you're right on the Barbara Streisand effect because as a school district, I would choose to let that one go. Like this is a student making a point. It sounds like a valid point with the consent of the other students. And in making this such a big deal, you've simply embarrassed yourself by going after this kid. I don't know. I find that to be really a poor choice on the part of the school district. And as a teacher, I have to tell you that I am increasingly shocked by the things students can and cannot read. Right. I mean, I teach AP and honors. And when my students sit down to read in class, if we're reading a play together or we're going to read poetry out loud, because poetry just needs to be read out loud. You know, you need to feel the poem. But if we're reading something out loud in class and they go to read, there are a great many words that you would think would be common knowledge words that kids, even in an advanced placement class and an honors class, simply do not know. There are very few kids, maybe one student a semester that reads flawlessly or almost flawlessly. Otherwise, I have students stumbling over words all the time. It's a common problem.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Yeah, I first noticed this back when I used to teach middle and high school Bible studies, uh, children's church, Sunday school, things like that. I was shocked at the level of biblical illiteracy, just not knowing the story of Joseph, not knowing the story of Noah, not knowing the basic Bible stories at a middle to high school level. And these are lifetime church goers. And of course, that's not a reading and writing issue necessarily, but it's a different kind of literacy. It's cultural illiteracy to a point where we do not know our own stories within our own context, and we're ignorant of that as well. And it's a byproduct of this other kind of illiteracy, I think.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Well, exactly. If you're not reading, then you're not intaking the core substance of what makes us human

What Teachers Hear When Kids Read

SPEAKER_00 8:10

beings and the core substance of human experience. So we have a certain number of core stories, I think, of the movie Inside Out, the core memories that she internalizes. We have stories like that within our culture. And whether you are a religious person or not, you mentioned the Bible. There are core stories that come from that text that have been internalized as part of our culture. There are other stories, whether it be from mythology, fairy tales, that are also core pieces of our culture. Without reading those and internalizing those, we also become culturally illiterate. So that plays into literacy as well.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

It almost makes me wonder if, in general, there's a whole concerted effort to create a more ignorant population.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

And so I guess that's what we really have to deal with is where we think this is coming from first. And certainly we can continue to discuss education, which I could discuss all day long. But where is this lack of literacy really stemming from? Is this a societal choice that's been made? We talked about in Fahrenheit 451 when we covered that just two episodes ago, that Bradbury really isn't talking about censorship, governmental censorship. He's talking about a societal choice. As Captain Beatty says in the book, the people wanted to stop reading. The people chose to stop reading. Have we decided that reading is too much of an effort?

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Yeah, Bradbury looked into the future and he saw the negative effects of television in particular, and he hated what he saw. He knew where it was going, and really he was right. It has gone there. I I don't think he could have predicted that the internet on top of that would become a factor, but I do think that our forms of entertainment, particularly now the internet and social media, have a huge role to play.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

This is a societal choice that we have made.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

It is.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

And I do also think that there are persons in power that have allowed society to make that choice as well.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Well, I think there are persons in power that are taking advantage of it.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Because if you want to rule over the populace, ruling over an ignorant populace is a heck of a lot easier than ruling over an educated populace. So, as you said in your intro, readers ask questions. Readers look below the surface. People that do not read and do not critique and do not analyze don't do those things. And so you can rule over an ignorant populace much easier. So, yes, a government is going to let its people do that. In fact, why not discourage education a little bit more? And I think we have seen that. We have seen a trend against education, a trend against the educated, because those people, there's something wrong with them. Teachers have a hidden agenda, you know, so a trend against those that are part of the educational system, but the people have to choose to dislike it first. So I was having this interesting discussion in our local bookstore the other day, and it was kind of a fun discussion. And I want to make this point in the classroom, of course, I have to try to get students to read some of the classic literature. And that can be a tough sell, right? But as a reader, you do not have to read classic literature to be a reader, right? I don't really care if you read Beowulf and Canterbury Tales as long as you're reading. Like you can read a great many things and be reading and thinking, right? So we talk about all kinds of books on this podcast and then tell people to keep reading and keep thinking because you don't have to read classic literature to read and think, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

So in our little local bookstore, when I first started going in there, I did not see any copies of Dungeon Crawler Carl. And I had said to the people in there, and they were about my age, they're like Gen X, I said, Oh my goodness, have you guys read Dungeon Crawler Carl? Well, they decided to check out the series and they have become addicts, and now they have a display of Dungeon Crawler Carl in their little bookstore here in our tiny little town. And actually, the husband is now 3D printing, you know, Dungeon Crawler Carl characters, right? But he said he is getting a lot of people that drop by the bookstore and they just browse around and everything, and they come in and they say, Hey, we're so glad you guys are here. But you know what? I I really don't read books. You know, it's just I don't pick up books and read them. And he says, Well, you know what? You at least need to try reading this. Try the first book of Dungeon Crawler Carl. And the number of people he's gotten to read a whole book again for the first time in years, they've picked up Dungeon Crawler Carl. Okay, that's a book, and they read it. And I'm so excited when people will just read a book. And can that book get you thinking?

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

And looking below the surface?

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Yeah, it can. And so it doesn't have to be this huge burden to read, but you have to make the choice still to read. You have to make the choice to read and think. But the truth is that most people are going through their daily lives and it's too much effort to do that.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

And the irony, of course, of using Dungeon Crawler Carl as an example is it's one that we often encourage people to listen to. Right. Because the audio book is so good. However, there is something about the vehicle of a book and the way that it tells a story that delves so much deeper into the human experience and opens up that thought process that helps us develop empathy.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Because we get inside the minds of the characters and there's just so much room for more discussion rather than, say, a movie.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Or something like that. Which we can develop empathy from as well. And that is the scariest thing to me. I want people to be able to actually read. But whether you are reading or listening to books, it's that lack of an opportunity to develop empathy that really worries me the most for our future. And I see it as a huge problem in our world today. As a matter of fact, to the point where we have people in power that are villainizing the word empathy as some sort of pansy word. Yeah, so some sort of fake idea. And that's absurd to me because all it is is being able to get into the mind of another person and see the world from their perspective and have an ability to exercise understanding and compassion outside of your own personal experiences. And I don't know how we really get that opportunity outside of books and other art forms. Right. And I would explore the human experience.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

I would agree with you. So let me ask you this. Do you think it's possible

Why Books Build Empathy And Thought

SPEAKER_00 14:52

for people, you're talking about empathy right now, but we always say, keep reading, keep thinking. Do you think it's possible for people to think deeply without reading?

SPEAKER_01 15:02

No.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Why not?

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Because when you read, you're engaging in an isolated conversation. It's a one-way conversation where you have to take in and process another person's thoughts. And it's free of that interpersonal conversation pressure that you may have that's complicated by emotions and your own desire to formulate a response to the kinds of things you're hearing and insert yourself. Instead, even though your own personal advice are always there, you're in a much better position to take in all the information and to process those internally without all that other baggage.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

I agree. And when you're reading, you have this ability to go back and read over something again, to glean new things from it, to take the time to really parse out those words, to interpret, to read between the lines, to discover new things as you read over things. I think I said when we were talking about Fahrenheit that I've read that book, what, 30 times now in the course of teaching it and rereading it and preparing for it? And I've learned something new every single time. Because every single time I brought something new to the table and then also realized something new about Brad Bradbury's writing. And so reading is that experience in more isolation that causes you to think free from distraction, free from all the other things that kind of pollute our process, where we can get in there and really get into the process of the words and the understanding and really delving in there and exercising our mind. It's like when you isolate a core muscle group that you're working on when you're exercising and you're building strength. You isolate your mind and you allow it to really work with that subject matter. We are so distracted by so many things that we don't activate those aspects of our brain unless you really do it through that process. And I don't think people really understand that. And I do believe that you can do it in an enhanced way with audiobooks as well, you know, and that you can look at written text and you can also listen. And doing a combination of the two things is wonderful because we live in a busy world. And I certainly take advantage of that. But nothing can really replace sitting down and taking the time to really look at those words.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Right. And it's the process of not only reading, it's also the process of writing as well. It is. Because when you're in conversation, you say a lot of off-the-cuff things that just frankly aren't really well thought out and may not even be true. But when you actually sit down to express yourself in writing and even having the chance to do some research on what you're thinking, it's just such a much more complex process, even for yourself to parse out your own thoughts. So literacy goes both ways, is reading and writing, and both are important thinking processes. But you're going to get a much better conversation through the vehicle of the written word, whether you are reading or writing, than you could possibly get in that spur-of-a-moment opinionated conversation that like we're having right now.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

But we're hashing out our thoughts. But are our thoughts based largely on what we've read and what we've the information that we've taken in? Yes. Yes. I mean, so we have to have that as our basis anyway. But yes, you'd get more solid information the more you have read and the more you've taken in.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

I mean, all thinking has to come from experience and study and/or study.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Otherwise, there's no foundation for the thought whatsoever. And those kinds of things are deeply dependent upon the ability to read. Otherwise, we become dependent on others telling us how we should think and what we should think. And I think that is why an ignorant population is so advantageous to those that are in power.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

So what happens if we as a society really stop reading long-form arguments information and rely entirely on summaries, clips, and reactions? What happens to us?

SPEAKER_01 19:09

We will become sheep without personal thought or agency, and we will be at the mercy of those that can utilize such skills, and the power differential will be devastating.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

So do you think that's where democracy dies?

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Yes. Democracy and empathy.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

And that's what scares me. I, you know, as an educator, I look at where we are in the school system, where we are in education, and I look at my students, and that is the single most terrifying thing to me between the phones and AI and the apathy and the lack of interest is that idea that I could be witnessing

Democracy In The Age Of Clips

SPEAKER_00 19:47

not just the death of thought and empathy, which of course is terrifying to me, but the death of democracy that these students will be laying down their own rights in the process of rejecting the educational process or rejecting their desire to read and their actual desire to learn. And I'll give an example of laying down their democracy. In my AP language class, I have to get my students to really focus on analyzing rhetoric and really examining more real-world issues and speeches and things of that nature. So we're looking at nonfiction, and one of the first questions I always ask is what they've read in the news or what they know about what's going on in the world. Crickets. I get crickets. So I ask them about current events, and maybe one student in the class can tell me anything that's actually going on. We have gotten to a place where, unless they happen to see it on their TikTok algorithm and they get some kind of blurb from either a TikTok person or a YouTuber, and that's usually where those that are educated enough on something, like they know something about what's going on in Gaza, or they know something about what's going on in some aspect of the Middle East, or if they've seen something going on economically with the tariffs or any of those things, or the Strait of Hormuz, they have gotten a little blurb off TikTok or from a YouTuber, and it's very small. That's what they know. That's what they're being fed. They have no research of their own. And so I try to push them to go read and push them to actually go research and find some sources and educate themselves so that they can look at rhetoric and look at debate. But my fear is that in laying down their right to vote, laying down their democracy, they are really, by not reading, by not being an educated populist, giving politicians, giving leadership that just blank check. Go and make these decisions for us. Tell us what needs to happen, tell us what's going on, go. And run with it because, quite frankly, we don't have the will to be educated enough on the subject to know if you're making the right choice or not. They are merely byproducts of a society that's already there. Because how many people are really educated on the issues at hand?

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Right. Well, I mean, educated enough to be fed a narrative. Given up giving up their right to form their own narrative, they are outsourcing it to other people who formulate it for them. And that's scary.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Because they're not reading the actual information and they're not thinking and parsing out the actual information. They're just letting someone feed them the blurb.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Our version of research now is I watched a video where somebody told me what was true and I believe it.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

And it's funny that you say that you encourage them to watch the news, but I'm afraid that I have lost faith in the news as well as not being an agent of formulating that narrative for us again. So what's really crucial is that we are all aware of the human experience. And the more aware of the human experience, the more we are going to be resistant to being told those kinds of lies, the more we can parse out, hey, that doesn't match up with the human experience that I'm aware of. That must not be true. And that's why reading is so crucial. Because when somebody tells you, hey, these people are the enemy, they're doing this or that or the other, and you're like, that doesn't sound like the human experience, then we'll be resistant to their efforts to dehumanize people.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Right. And the more you read, and the more you're able to parse out and understand rhetoric and actually analyze what you're reading, you can also read when people are speaking to you on the news. Because what they have to do when they watch is they have to analyze the rhetoric that those people are using. Where is the bias? Where is the ethos, the pathos, the logos? What fact is there? And what is just bluster?

SPEAKER_01 23:54

And you can only get that through literacy.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

And that is right. So you have to have the literacy as the foundation first. Otherwise, that news can also be just dribble. And in order to fix a problem, we have to come to terms with how we've created it and then begin to solve or begin to shore up those areas and begin to make changes to solve the problem. So, you know, the first step toward recovery, what is acceptance, you know, as we look at what we've done to get there. So where do we go to begin to fix the issue?

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Well, I mean, I think it's cliche, maybe, but first and foremost, the issue has to be fixed at home with the parents. It can't be entirely upon the educational system because I think you are legitimately working hard to fix the issue, but you can only have so much effect on the lives of your students in the classroom. And if parents stop allowing their children to be raised by electronics and force their children to read and encourage them to read and also lead by example as readers themselves, I think that would make a huge difference. And also just allowing them to read whatever they want to read.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

You know, we could read a graphic novel, we could read a Spider-Man graphic novel and probably have a great conversation.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

As an episode.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

And if so, if they're just encouraged to read anything at all, manga, graphic novels,

Parents, Poverty, And The Testing Trap

SPEAKER_01 25:17

and it's no pressure whatsoever, just get off the electronics, then I think that would make a huge difference. But unfortunately, I think we've sort of allowed electronics to raise our children, and that's one of the big issues.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

Do you think that our overall society, however, the economic drive, the capitalism, the work and survive society is really conducive to allowing parents to do that? And what I mean by that is that I look around and I know I hear what you're saying about it starting at home and about parents getting their kids off electronics, but then I think of the single parent households and the parents just trying to make ends meet and the parents working these long shifts or working these jobs where their kids are home alone and they're just trying to survive because they barely bring in enough money to put food on the table. Is it our economic structure? Is it our system, the way it's stacked against people, is that partially inhibiting the parents from accomplishing exactly what you're talking about?

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Well, statistically speaking, I say I think that bears out because our lowest literacy rates are in the most economically challenged demographics.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Right. And I see that because I teach in a school district where about 70, 75% of my students are below the poverty level. And so they qualify for free and reduced lunch. And so I definitely see that amongst my students. It's not to perpetuate a stereotype, but it just is. That is the way it is that if parents are struggling at home to put food on the table, then students are going to struggle in school or with their priorities. There are certainly students that rise above that, and there are parents that are trying really hard to get their students to rise above that. And there are parents that are in that situation that value education quite a bit, but the cards are still stacked against them as far as what they're trying to do. So I just find that to be we're working in a system that does not necessarily support the parents you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

And I hear what you're saying because I do understand that part of the problem is definitely systemic and that needs to change. However, unless we're saying it's too late and we have no power to change, I don't know where else to point the finger first than at ourselves at home and with our children. Because we have this correlation between economics and illiteracy, but that also means that there's a correlation between wealth and power and literacy. So if you're in a situation like that and you're dreaming of a better life than the one you're having growing up, but you're not trying to be literate in all the ways that we're talking about reading, writing, culturally, socially, politically, and you're dreaming of a better future, then you're just dreaming. And if you're parenting your children and hoping for a better life for them, but not encouraging them to read and be literate, then you're doing them a great disservice. Do you think it's too late?

SPEAKER_00 28:14

I don't know. That's where I get really frustrated as a teacher. I feel like there are so many things that need to change. It's not, I I would hate to say it's ever too late. If we say it's too late, then that's hopelessness. And then I feel like I have to give up. And I'm not a give up kind of person. So that's really difficult for me to say. But I think there are a great many things that need to change, and it's a cultural shift. It's not just a change in one area, and that's perhaps the most devastatingly difficult thing to do is to shift an entire culture. So it's where we place our values, and as a people, we have to insist on a certain value in our children and in education and in our literacy. If we do not value literacy as a people, then we cannot change it. So we can't just put the onus of responsibility on one group. So, yes, we need parents to value literacy at home, but we also need our social structure to value literacy and allow for it to support it with our parents, to support it so that our parents can provide it. Then in the educational system, we need to stop teaching toward a test and stop teaching toward grades, stop putting the value on grades and graduation rates and test scores and start putting the value back in the love of learning and actually being educated and finding joy in reading and solving that math problem and what that means for our real lives in the real world and our understanding of other people. Because what I see right now as a teacher is that my students just want to know they have enough points to get out of my class.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

And the county wants to know that my students are gonna pass so that they're gonna progress to the next grade level so that they're gonna graduate so that the graduation rate remains high. That doesn't necessarily guarantee that they're literate and that they're going to succeed on the other side. So that brings to an interesting point. There was a girl, or there is a girl rather, because it's an ongoing case. There's a girl in Connecticut who was part of the special education program at a school in Hartford, and she graduated with honors. She even received a scholarship to the University of Connecticut, I believe. And she had a GPA that I believe was a 3.87. And she graduated with honors. She had dyslexia and ADHD. And so she was provided services based on her IEP, but she passed everything brilliantly, A's clearly, got this scholarship, but she is functionally illiterate. She really cannot succeed at the college level or succeed in a job. She realized that when she got to college and then she was trying to function and got to jobs and trying to function, and she really can't read or write or function with those skills on a daily basis. So she's suing the school district for educational malpractice. Now that's a difficult lawsuit to bring, but because she falls under the Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act, IDEA, that act guarantees someone with disability appropriate educational services. And the argument is that she was not provided with those appropriate educational services to meet her needs. She was just passed through. Her argument has teeth, right? Because clearly the goal of the school district was to make her successful and get her passed through, but not necessarily for her to succeed on the other side. And so she is suing them because she can't read and write at a successful level. And I think that says something that is kind of a it's an isolated case, but not so isolated based on what I see as a teacher. I see a lot of students walking across the stage at graduation that are functionally illiterate. And I'm not saying that my school district is doing anything wrong or illegal. I'm saying that we've created the system where we are told to do everything possible to get these students across the stage so they can get out and go and get their job at McDonald's or whatever else they're doing, but not necessarily so they can be highly successful in life because of the culture that we've created. So is it too late? Not necessarily, but so many things need to change. And that's not even getting into the fact that we have an entire government at war with one another right now and at war with education, because our current trend in government looks at teachers and says we have a political agenda. Our current trend in government looks at us and says, education is too woke, or public schools have a liberal agenda, or whatever else is going on.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

And they're actively attacking your efforts to get students to think deeper about text because they're like, oh, that's social and emotional learning, which is just trying to teach students to have compassion and empathy, or critical race theory.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Yeah, critical race theory or indoctrination of some type. And then you want to ban books that students can can connect to because they've got some perceived content in them. So so many battles are being fought on so many different levels that are also contrary to any progress in the right direction. And then you've got teachers like me. I may teach an honors class in an AP class where yes, I'm still seeing students struggle. And then I teach

Screens, Schools, And What We Do

SPEAKER_00 33:51

a regular class with a co-teacher that has IEP students in it, and then a lot of regular students in it, and I give them a diagnostic test, and I have kids reading from the kindergarten level to the ninth grade level in a tenth grade class, and most of them are reading below fifth grade level. Half of the students in my school read below their reading level. That is a huge mountain to climb. And we cannot do that unless we have a concerted effort as a society to say this is a problem. And it's such a problem that as a people, we are going to unilaterally say this because it's fundamental to our democracy, because it's fundamental to our success as a society, because we need empathetic people, we are going to tackle this because it's one of the most important issues we have. And I don't know if people have that will or not. So right now, the wealthiest country in the world, according to GDP, is 36th in the world when it comes to literacy.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

And that would be us.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

And that would be us.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

And that gap is widening every year. Every year. And has been significantly ever since COVID.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

Right. But you can't blame COVID because we were already there. We were already going downhill. It's just that COVID just helped us go aside a little faster in that moment. But we were already going downhill rapidly.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

The other problem that I see and I hear oftentimes from teachers is that parents themselves approach their child's education with the perspective of my child has a right to pass your class.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

Despite their educational performance, despite all the evidence that they are not at the level that they need to be in order to succeed in life, the push comes both ways. The push comes from the district to increase the graduation rates, but it also comes from parents who just simply won't allow their child to fail and find out.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

While it's still safe to do so.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

Right. Because in the real world, we don't get all the chances that we give them in the educational, in the educational system. So it used to be that, you know, your second chance in education was to retake the class after you failed it. Now it's like it can be December and grades are due, and students and parents feel like the student should be able to turn in all the assignments from August. Would that have been something you were able to do?

SPEAKER_01 36:10

No.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

No. My teachers would have laughed me out of the classroom if I had been trying to turn in things from August. Of course, I would have been terrified not to turn things in originally.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

But yeah, I grew up in uh the era of not many standardized tests.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

No.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

We have all these end-of-the-year standardized tests that we have now, et cetera. But I also grew up in the era where I saw my fellow students get F's and fail the class. And I would get an F and fail the class if I was I was held to a higher standard educationally, I believe, than we are helding them now. Yeah. Because there wasn't that pressure to perform for the test.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

It was really, you know, we're really expecting you to do the work.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Right. But I also loved school. I mean, that's the other thing is that I I don't know, I don't know what's happened that there's no intrinsic motivation to learn, that everything has to be dangling a carrot. And I love engaging my students in education. I think there is something to be said about getting your students involved and interested in what you're doing. And that's what I try to do in my English class every single day is I want to make it relevant and I want to get my students engaged. But as a student, I also wanted to learn it.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

Well, and to be fair, we both come from white middle class families. So our growing up experience is skewed in that regard as far as our opportunities for education and our attitude towards education and the way our parents were educated and encouraged us and gave us a perspective on the value of education.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

But that could have made us hate it too.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

Yeah, well, that's true. That's true. But I also do think, though, that we also had less distraction. We had video games, you know, early iterations of video games where you got three lives and you had to start at the beginning of the game. There was no infinite spawning or anything like that. So it couldn't, it couldn't hold our attention for hours and hours and hours and hours and games.

SPEAKER_00 37:59

It taught us perseverance.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Right, right. Uh but you know, yeah, I and I think therefore we had a lot more educational activities that were enjoyable for us at the time. Yeah, they were less mindless.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

And so in general, we were getting a better education just from the things that we had to do for fun. So school became kind of an extension of that. You know, we were reading books to entertain ourselves at home.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Right. No, I know. I know.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

And I hate to reduce stimulating things.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

And I hate to be that person that's like the older person saying, well, my generation, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, that's really not what I'm trying to do. It's just that I often find myself sitting back and thinking, how can I get my students to look at this differently than the way they look at it? And I don't know. I don't know if they can ever look at it the way I looked at it.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Yeah, I know. And I but see, the thing is, is it is the attention span that we've lost because of the electronics. I do have to be that old guy.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:55

We have drastically lost our ability to pay attention and focus on one thing without multiple distractions, too. That's another thing, is the fact that I can't handle the stimulation from multiple areas that I can see younger people handling and they can do so many things at once and you know, take none of it really in at all. Right. And they need that, they need that chaos in their life. They need the music in the background and the TV on as well, and the, you know, and they need their information in 15-second clips or less.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

And yeah, it's it's really hurting us. And I think the only way we can maybe figure it out is if we take the things that are hurting us and start using them as vehicles to help us again. I think we're gonna have to fight fire with fire in ways. I think that we need to develop entertaining ways to reintroduce.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

But don't you think that's kind of like using a drug to solve a problem with drugs?

SPEAKER_01 39:52

Well, that's actually how they treat drug addiction.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

Okay. But but at some point you have got to, you've got to like taper off, right? I mean, would the goal be to wean off of that? Because I feel like you've got to retrain the brain in some in some way.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

Yeah. But I mean, I think we have to find entertaining ways to rebuild our attention span. That's all I'm saying. And we have to start where we're at and work our way backwards.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

Okay. So how do we do that?

SPEAKER_01 40:17

And I think we can leverage, I think we can leverage the internet. I think we can leverage video games, I think we can leverage virtual reality and all those things that are at our disposal to do that. But unfortunately, companies need to make it a priority in their development of these things instead of just mindless entertainment and maximizing money.

SPEAKER_00 40:35

Right, right, right. But how do I do that in my English class? How am I getting how am I leveraging anything to get people to read books in my English class? People have to eventually just get down to reading books class.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

Well, we also have to, it has to be allowed and considered as part of the curriculum, too. And that's part of the problem, is because you're not allowed to introduce certain things into your curriculum.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

So would you say from from an English perspective, you had said, you know, we should be letting our kids read more of things they want to read that we should be introducing, if I could use the buzzword in education right now, multimodal things, so videos and this and that in with our other instruction. So you would advocate to provide a lot of different resources along with the book and allow books with a variety of content instead of just the classics.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

To get kids interested.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

Absolutely, yes.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

Yeah, and therein lies the trouble because I am always advocating for that. Not that I'm gonna teach Dungeon Crawler Carl in my class, although I guarantee people would be into it. Um, but especially my gamer kids, but not just my gamer kids, people would be into it. But I get I hear what you're saying. So bring in more modern texts and then bring in multimodal things to go with them and get kids interested in the reading.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

Yeah. And analyze, I mean, I'm sure you do already, but maybe more so than not, analyze shorter works of fiction.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Oh, yeah, I do that.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

And have them take character roles and write a script and act it out and then explore the motivations of the characters and their thought processes and their and empathize with one another as part of the story, maybe. We have to be a lot more creative to get people to think and and be entertained by it.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

Right. And these are the things I do, which is why kids actually do like my class. But it is a full-time job as a teacher. It's more than a full-time job to create all those things and to keep those things fresh. And it is exhausting. But that is the level to which we have to go to keep it real for the students in the English classroom because it is that much of an uphill battle. But your goal with the students has to be to steer them away from just the focus on the grades and getting through and get them interested in doing what you were just talking about. But we have to not be at war with one another in the process. And as a society, we have to figure that part of it out.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

I think we need a government that is not anti-education. That's one of the that's going to be a big first step.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

Right. And that's not just one party or another party, actually.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

It's it's an attitude. It's just it's just a set of priorities.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

We yes. We certainly have one party that is more anti-education right now. But our country as a whole has done a poor job of being consistent in the application and prioritizing of public education in a consistent, organized way. And we need to realize that before all of these other ventures that we make more important than anything else, that educating our children and making sure that everyone has equal access to education, no matter what the income of your community is, what the color of your skin is, what the income of your family is, that you can go to university. That you can achieve all the things you want to do. We have some significant things to reprioritize as a country, regardless of who's in power, in order to really say we care about the literacy and the educational success of all of our citizens.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

This is almost an impossible conversation to have, really. And we could go and talk about all sorts of things on legislation that's being passed in our country and in our state right now, that is trying to ban cell phones and things like that in the educational system. And we could keep pointing fingers at, well, this people, the government needs to do that, and parents need to do that, and the teachers need to do that, and the school district needs. At the end of the day, though, the most important conversation is the one you have with yourself and what you are doing to encourage your own reading and your thinking, and also what you can do to help the situation personally. One of the reasons we do this podcast is because it's something that we hope will encourage people to read more. One of the things, reasons I do video reviews of books and things like that is because I hope it will encourage people to read more. If you're a parent, you have an opportunity with your children, like I said earlier, to encourage them to read more. And everything starts with you.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

It does.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

And so as long as we know this is an issue, it's our issue. It's not somebody else's issues, it's our personal issue. Literacy starts with you.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

Right. And if you can encourage someone to pick up a book, encourage them to pick up a book, even if it's just dungeon crawler Carl.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

And if you're an adult who think that thinks that it's too late to be literate, there is a national literacy directory, nld.org, that you can go to that offer free or low cost adult education in your area for reading.

SPEAKER_00 45:33

That's right. So there are still resources out there for everyone. And maybe you know someone who needs those resources as well that you can point them to. All right. Until next time, please keep reading.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

Keep thinking.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

And we'll talk to you again soon.