Carl's Doomsday Scenario, Dungeon Crawler Carl Book 2 by Matt Dinniman

The scariest twist in Carl’s Doomsday Scenario isn’t a new monster, it’s the moment the dungeon fully reveals itself as an industry. Carl and Princess Donut aren’t just fighting for their lives in Matt Dinniman’s Dungeon Crawler Carl Book 2, they’re being packaged, promoted, and sold to an audience that claims to love them while tuning in to watch them bleed. That single shift turns the story into a sharp piece of dystopian LitRPG satire about commodification, sponsorship, and what happens when suffering becomes content. 

We talk through a spoiler-free take on why the world opens up in book two with deeper mechanics, quests, NPCs with real emotional stakes, and a stronger sense of atmosphere. Then we get into the bigger questions the book keeps forcing: Are NPCs “people” if they have memory, fear, and hope? What responsibility does an audience have when the entertainment is real? And how much harm counts if it’s psychological, social, and normalized over time instead of just physical? Along the way, we dig into Carl and Donut’s evolving partnership, Donut’s vulnerability under celebrity pressure, and the uneasy sense that survival now requires performance. 

The dungeon AI also steps forward as a genuine character, raising the question of whether it’s merely programming, an exploited tool, or an emerging consciousness with its own moral structure. We connect that to Carl’s growing willingness to strategize and manipulate the system, and we ask the uncomfortable thing the book won’t let us dodge: is he becoming a better person, or simply the person he has to become in an immoral world? 

If you love Dungeon Crawler Carl, LitRPG audiobooks, or smart book club conversations that take satire seriously, hit play. Subscribe, share the episode with a friend, and leave us a review so more readers can find the show.

Transcript

The Dungeon As An Industry

SPEAKER_03 0:50

Welcome back. Today we're heading back into the dungeon with Matt Dinneman's Carl's Doomsday Scenario, the second book in the Dungeon Crawler Carl series. And somehow things have gotten worse. Which is impressive considering humanity has already been mostly annihilated. The survivors have been dropped into an alien death game, and Carl is wandering around without pants, accompanied by a talking Persian cat with the confidence of royalty and the survival instincts of someone who assumes the universe will eventually recognize her greatness. And frankly, Donut might be right. But Carl's doomsday scenario begins to reveal something that the first book only allowed us to glimpse. The dungeon isn't really a game, it's an industry. There are viewers, sponsors, advertisers, ratings, fan favorites, narratives being constructed around the crawlers, and suddenly Carl and Donut aren't simply trying to survive monsters and traps, they're learning that survival itself requires them to become entertaining. Because somewhere out there people are watching, and that changes everything. And what happens when suffering becomes content? What happens when the people being exploited realize that their popularity might be the only weapon they possess? And perhaps most disturbing of all, what responsibility does an audience have when it knows the entertainment it's consuming is real? Because the aliens watching the dungeon aren't necessarily monsters. Some of them love Carl. They love Donut. They root for them. They buy merchandise, they argue about them, they form fan clubs, and then they tune in tomorrow to watch them almost die again. Sound uncomfortably familiar yet? Meanwhile, Carl is changing. He's becoming smarter, more strategic, more dangerous, and angrier. That anger is important because Carl is beginning to understand that surviving the dungeon isn't enough. He wants to understand the system. He wants to manipulate it. And somewhere beneath all the explosions, loot boxes, ridiculous achievements, homicidal llamas, and the increasingly questionable enthusiasm of the dungeon AI, a different Carl is beginning to emerge. A man who isn't simply asking, How do I survive this? He's beginning to ask, How do I hurt the people who built it? And that may be the question that ultimately defines the entire series. So today we're talking about spectacle and suffering, entertainment and exploitation, the ethics of spectatorship, the illusion of choice, the commodification of human beings, Carl and Donut's evolving relationship, and what happens to morality when the rules themselves are immoral. And we're going to ask whether Carl's greatest danger is actually the dungeon, or whether it's what surviving the dungeon might eventually require him to become. So grab your loot box, check your inventory, protect Donut at all cost, and for God's sake, Carl, put on some pants. Welcome back to the dungeon.

Spoiler Free Book Summary

SPEAKER_03 3:31

Okay, Liz, it's your job to give us a brief, spoiler-free summary of this book.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Alright, well, clearly, Carl's Doomsday scenario takes us past the introductory levels of the dungeon. We are getting into the really serious gameplay at this point, if that's what you can call it, is gameplay. There are much more complicated dungeon mechanics. We have NPCs with storylines and quests. There's a lot of interaction and complication with the world around them that didn't exist in the introductory levels. So Carl really has to adapt to that. Clearly, they have become super popular. So they are full-fledged dungeon celebrities. Every decision they make is scrutinized. It could win them popularity, it could lose them popularity, they have guest appearances to consider. And then they just have to stay alive. So there's a lot going on here. And Carl is really starting to understand the marketing and the entertainment and the business aspect of the dungeon in a way that he did not understand before. We know that Donut loves to entertain. God bless Donut. We love her. She loves to entertain, she loves to preen. She loves to go on talk shows. She knows exactly how to play a crowd. And Carl has shown signs of learning some of that, but now he really has to learn it because sponsorships are on the line, and he has to know how to play his cards just right, not just for popularity's sake, but for survival's sake. So I think that kind of sums

New Characters And Stronger Stakes

SPEAKER_00 5:12

it up.

SPEAKER_03 5:12

Yeah, I agree. So characters, uh, we got a lot of characters from the first book into the second book, and then we get introduced to some other characters as well, like, for example, Katia.

unknown 5:22

Right.

SPEAKER_03 5:23

Katya Grimm becomes a big um character in this series, and this is the first we get to know her. I say, as far as character development goes, hers is arguably the weakest in this book, which is why a lot of people say, just kind of like the audience's reaction to her when she first joins the team, a lot of the fans reading the book don't really vibe with Katya a lot in this book. But it gets better. And so that's that's one thing I'll say about the characters. And then we got the important introduction of Zarina Signet, who we'll talk about later on, and also Batista. Right. Daniel Batista. And uh yeah, otherwise, I mean, this series is all about the characters. This series has some of the best character development and characters in general that I've read in any series ever, and that's what I think I love about it, and most people love about it.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

Right. And I would say, just to add briefly, that my favorite character development in this book is really the relationship between Carl and Donut. And then, of course, with the addition of Mongo. There is an incredible character growth on all parts there, and it is especially it's especially based in that relationship aspect for both of those characters. As far as the atmosphere is concerned, I really feel like we get into a really good, almost DD fantasy-esque atmosphere with the over city that exists in this book and the shops and the NPCs. All of it is just very interactive and very interesting,

Worldbuilding Gets More Real

SPEAKER_00 6:52

but also very threatening. Like everything feels higher stakes like it's supposed to, and the atmosphere really draws you in. I loved the first book, but you get to the second book and you really start to feel the weight of what's going on, and that weight really exists not just in the characters, but also in the atmosphere.

SPEAKER_03 7:11

Absolutely. Yeah. Uh this book, I got a much bigger sense of the atmosphere, also the world, of course, that uh he was building more than the first book, because the first book essentially I'm envisioning as sort of a labyrinthine dungeon, you know, which is really hard to kind of picture directionally in your head, you know, they're just kind of wandering about. And so so are you.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Kind of plain tunnels with doors.

SPEAKER_03 7:37

Yeah, exactly. And I can't even remember what the second level really was it just an extension of the dungeon? I can't even remember.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

That one like blipped by, honestly.

SPEAKER_03 7:44

Yeah, but this is the first time I really got a sense of the world, and so it becomes very RPG in a way, and like as an RPG games, you know, open world kind of system. And uh I kind of think it's medieval urban fantasy. It's sort of a mashup of those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

I agree. So the writing style in this becomes really important because I think that world building and that atmosphere creation becomes essential to what Matt Matt Deniman is doing here. And I also think it's the inclusion of the development of characters that may have been stagnant or a little flat originally, but now

The AI Becomes A Character

SPEAKER_00 8:21

are becoming fully rounded. For instance, the AI. The AI is really its own character in Doomsday scenario. Not that it wasn't there in the first book, but there is personality and there are choices and there are things going on in Doomsday scenario that brings the AI up. And I love Matt's writing style when it comes to the AI. Like in the first book, I find the AI hysterical, and I just get drawn into those jokes as inappropriate as they are, and it just makes me laugh out loud. It made me laugh out loud so many times in the first book. But then he just does these subtle shifts with how he's writing the AI, how he's writing the world, and suddenly the weight begins to sink in on you, almost like you're descending into the dungeon. You're also descending as far as the weight and implications of what's going on in the world are concerned. So the writing style just becomes really excellent. Like I think his writing style just gets better as we go through this series anyway, even though I was epically drawn into book one. I think this just really advances it.

Quests And The Ethics Of NPCs

SPEAKER_03 9:22

Yeah, I agree. And plot-wise, this book is crucial to not only understanding the dungeon world better, but also the industry behind it and the forces that are operating there. I hear a lot of people criticize the plot of this book as not one of their favorites because they're not into the quest theme. And pretty much the whole plot, if we're being honest, is Donut and Carl taking a series of quests.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 9:52

And and that might not vibe with everybody. I hear that this book is some people's least favorite, and also the third for being confusing is some people's least favorite. See, I like the third, but yeah. They're all they're all, for me, the least good out of wonderful books. What is it? Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

They all rank, they all rank high, like what, the lesser of all goods?

SPEAKER_03 10:12

Yes, the lesser of all goods. Thank you. Yeah. If I put these on any kind of ranking, the one at number eight, since there are eight books, would not be a book I didn't like at all. It would be for whatever kind of enjoyment I got out of the books and what I kind of liked the most. That would be it.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

Well, and I think the quests add to the intrigue here. So I'm gonna, you know, go to bat for the quests for a second, because I think really including the quests in this, developing that quest atmosphere and the NPCs with the storylines and the backgrounds and the emotions, and the first time maybe that you really look at the NPCs as, you know, caring whether they live or die in a really radical way, you know, kind of looking at Carl feeling like he has to help certain people, even though they're NPCs. I think the intrigue builds with this because I think we begin to see that we're having a lot of questions of consciousness, of personhood. And I think the quest aspect of it is very, very important. And if you look at it as part of the whole, I think this book is essential for the intrigue that builds over the entire series.

SPEAKER_03 11:16

Absolutely. Absolutely. Uh logic-wise, whenever I think of this book and I think logic or any book and I think logic, I think about do I believe in the relationships? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

100%.

SPEAKER_03 11:27

Do I believe in the decisions made? Absolutely. Uh do I believe in the questions that are being asked and and and the struggles? Are they relatable? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Right. I agree. The logic is solid. So enjoyment level, again, I know that people complain about certain books in the series, but I'm gonna be with Peter here. Like it's the lesser of goods, right? And I wouldn't actually rank this book all the way at the bottom because I like this quest inclusion, and I like the fact that we build this kind of very classic fantasy mashup that you were talking about we have going on. And so I enjoyed it. And mostly I enjoy the developing relationship between Carl and Donut. I think this book is essential to that. And we see Carl's love for Donut that really goes beyond a love for a pet. It has to at this point. It is a love for another person. And I will hold on to that and say that I enjoy that and I wait for the moments, almost like someone waits for the romantic moments in a romance. You know, you're waiting for them to kiss, you're waiting for those moments of tension and those quietly spoken words. I know this sounds ridiculous. It's not a romance between Carl and Donut, but it is this developing, beautiful family type love that exists between them. And I find that to be an amazing part of this book. So, enjoyment-wise, that's where my enjoyment really comes from.

SPEAKER_03 12:53

Yeah, I agree. Uh the most enjoyable parts of this entire series are those moments of beautiful connection between Carl and Dona, but any all the characters in the series.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

Right. As those relationships grow and develop.

unknown 13:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

All right. Well, that takes us to the end of our Kopile section. So if you've not read Carl's Doomsday scenario and you want to stop here, that's great. Otherwise, stand by and join us for the rest of the ride.

Merch Break And Where To Buy

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Okay, quick pause. Because if you're still listening, you clearly have excellent taste or questionable judgment. Either way, we've got something for you.

SPEAKER_03 13:45

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SPEAKER_00 13:52

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SPEAKER_03 13:59

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SPEAKER_00 14:05

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Controversy And Misread Criticism

SPEAKER_03 14:19

So I think where I want to start first here is to address some further controversy, if you will, that is sort of a rollover from the first book discussion. People trying to drum up problematic things in this series are just looking for attention, in my opinion. But since it's out there, I think we should go ahead and talk about it. So we already talked about how people tried to say that the hoarder boss in the first book was ethnically, racially sort of coded that was stereotypical stereotypical and it was racist. Right. And we kind of talked about the logic of why that would be the case in this book as serving for the plot.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

Right.

SPEAKER_03 14:56

There's been other criticisms. The first, I'm not even gonna really bother to discuss, which is people say that because Mordecai is a rat in the first book, it's anti-Semitic.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Oh Lord. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:07

Yeah. Uh he's not Jewish in the first place. I mean, I know he's got a name like Mordecai, but that's just stupid.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

But doesn't that make you a little anti-Semitic if you've automatically equated it with a rat? I'm sorry. Okay, all right, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 15:21

The other, of course, is the one that does gain a little bit more traction. I I think it's misplaced, but that is that Matt's portrayal of B, Carl's ex-girlfriend, is misogynistic because she's such a horrible person.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:35

So go ahead and address that, I guess, Liz.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Well, let's talk about misogyny for just a second. I mean, then you could also lump in the idea that Zarina Signet is this naked attractive woman running around with these moving tattoos and Carl's getting an erection, right? A of all. B is a terribly toxic person, and there are legit toxic people that exist in this world. I think there are some toxic men in this series as well that we could cite. I mean, just a ton of them. So B's interpretation, I don't think bothers me. I just have to say that straight out that she is very definable as a human. We see these humans in real life, what she's interested in, what she prioritizes, then her complete descent into narcissism, into her own kind of world as she loses her bearing entirely after all these events have taken place. I don't know. I think this is very relatable because we know people exactly like be in our real life. So I don't think it's a gross character, and maybe that's why it doesn't bother me. I think if I were going to jump into the misogyny thing, I would jump on the Zarina Signet bandwagon and really talk about having this naked woman running around, you know, and she's beautiful and she has these tattoos and she talks in this alluring voice, the way Jeff Hayes, you know, interprets her in the book. But in that particular case, I also think of the marketing and the capitalism and the viewer audience that the dungeon is going for. And that makes perfect sense because what do people love more than watching drama where people get hurt? Sexation or sexploitation. That's right. So Zarina Signet fits perfectly into the framework. So I think I don't know, I just don't see it. I see so many strong representations of females in this series, for better or worse, just like I see strong representations of males in this series for better or worse, I don't feel slighted by B.

SPEAKER_03 17:36

Well, I'm I'm glad you don't. And you know, one of the things that I reasons I don't see it is because despite what a terrible girlfriend B is, I kind of see myself in her and some of my own flaws and my development as a human being and my moments of narcissism. I don't see her as a villain.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

No, I don't either. She's sad.

SPEAKER_03 17:58

Yeah, exactly. I just see her as a believable human being, one that I have been and one many of which I have met, right? Right. Uh people who are arguing she's this is a misogynistic, clearly, you're lucky enough never to have been in a relationship with a narcissist or a toxic person. That's right. That's great. But portraying them as out there, as creating a character is not inherently misogynist.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

I mean, I've been in that relationship. So I don't think, I don't think, yeah, it seems out of the ordinary for me too. So if that's the extent, is that the extent of the controversy?

SPEAKER_03 18:27

Yes. As far as I know now regarding the first book and people just trying to drum up things, obviously they haven't read the rest of the series because, of course, this series has an incredible cast of strong female representation.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

Right.

SPEAKER_03 18:42

And it also passes the Bechtel test, and I think the standard for that is kind of low, but he certainly meets it over and over again throughout the series. So I don't know. I don't know what else to say about that. The other thing that that's kind of funny, okay, so Threads is an incredibly toxic social media platform that is.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Yeah, I'm not part of it, I'll be completely honest.

SPEAKER_03 19:02

It's it's it's really just awful. And this is where most of these quote unquote problematic things are being discussed.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Right. Well people with too much time on their hands.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

Yes, yes, absolutely. So uh Matt's wife, Meredith, is very active in social media, friends with her on Facebook. She's very responsive, she's a cool person. And there were posts uh claiming that Matt was being misogynistic, and so she decided to weigh in as his wife in defense of him.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

Right.

SPEAKER_03 19:30

Which then later turned the spotlight and the and the criticisms on to her because how dare she violate the safe place of the internet to discuss these things without having the wife or the author or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

I'm sorry. Did I miss a memo? Is the internet a safe place? No, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:51

It's like I had to post, I was like, I was like, I was like, she didn't read your diary. Oh, you put it out there in the public. And the irony of criticizing a a woman for defending her husband and telling her to be silent while talking about misogyny.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Right. That is incredibly ironic. And you know what? If you're gonna put yourself out there on social media, you better be prepared for some feedback. That's just always how it is. If you really want to avoid toxicity at this point, you just need to not have social media accounts. Yeah. Because otherwise, it's just there. And no, the internet is not a safe space. I'm sorry, it's not. You can find safe spaces a lot of different places where people will hear you and listen to you and preserve, you know, your calm and your peace. This is not one of those things. The internet is not friendly for that.

SPEAKER_03 20:39

Yeah. And where people got this idea that they should find have a safe place to completely bash somebody, accuse them of things, and try to trash the reputation. Like, why do you deserve a safe place for that?

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Well, and that's the irony again, right? You've invaded our safe space where we are destroying the reputations of other people. Okay, so you know, I'm sorry, that just makes no sense at all. And I need you to check yourself, look in the mirror, and find something else to do with your time.

SPEAKER_03 21:06

Yeah. So funny story though, behind it actually is I was reading these posts and getting myself all worked up. And and now let me first say that I am not close friends with Meredith. I, you know, she probably couldn't pick me out in a crowd, but she's very engaging. And we've had a couple of conversations on Facebook, mostly about our pets, about the fact that we both have a dog named Poppy, and about her cat, Princess Svetlana of the Deniman Imperium, first of her name, destroyer of filth, daughter of the Oakville, she who purrs.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Right, nice. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 21:35

I have that memorized. Um anyway, anyway. So I go ahead and message her because I'm upset. She's like, I'm so upset, I'm so angry. Threads is so toxic. And she's like, What why? What's going on? And I was like, Oh, you know, that the fact that they're trying to just attack Matt for all sorts of things, and they I just can't believe that they go after Matt and you. And she's like, What are they saying? And I was like, Oh.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 21:58

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

She's so terrible person.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

She's so active on social media. I thought she was probably already aware.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Yeah, well, I would distinctly try not to be aware. You know what I mean? Like, so I can appreciate that about her.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

And no, yeah. And she said, and she said that her her therapist was telling her to stay away from it. I was like, well, then I am sorry. I'm not going to tell you what's going on. She goes, No, now you now you have to tell me what's going on. So, and so I did. I told her what's going on. And I said, I am so sorry. I am so sorry for bringing negativity. And she's like, No, don't worry about it. I'm about to go over there and address it. Yeah, right. And she and she said the same thing. How dare they talk about misogyny and then tell a woman to shut up.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

Right, exactly. I love therapists. Her therapist told her not to watch any or reading those things. My therapist told me to stop watching the news, but that hasn't worked out very well because, you know, I get stressed out too. But yeah, that's just that's just a mess. I don't know what else to say about that except, you know, I'm sorry. That's terrible and internet and ooh.

SPEAKER_03 23:00

Yeah. But Meredith, if you're ever listening to this, I am sorry that I was the one who brought you the bad news.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Yeah. Terrible person, Peter. Shame.

SPEAKER_03 23:08

Not what I wanted to do.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Shame, shame.

Violence As Content And Harm

SPEAKER_00 23:10

All right. So I want to talk a little bit about violence in entertainment. And so this whole book really brings that into a light that is much more profound than the first book. All right. The first book is kind of like this event has just happened and we are now trying to survive. But when we get to book two and we have the inclusion of sponsorships and the shows, you know, in a much greater capacity and the ratings and donut obsessively checking her numbers, you know, as one would do if one were an influencer on social media in any way. I think that we begin to really get deeper into that discussion of the use of people as a commodity in this dungeon and the fact that death is being marketed and it is being profited off of in a serious way. And I had this discussion with my students recently because we've been in one of my classes, it's a foundations class, it's a class that students go into to get a little more reinforcement with reading. And so we've been using hunger games as a basis for that class. And so we had this discussion of violence as entertainment. And it was interesting that some of the commentary that came out of this was it's only bad if people get hurt. That was the litmus test for my students. It's only bad if people get hurt. There was definitely a dislike of this idea that we would watch anything to see someone die or to see someone physically injured, which is, you know, dystopian, right? But I question that. I think that we cross that line more often than we think we do.

SPEAKER_03 24:50

Yeah, absolutely. And first of all, the internet has already crossed that line a million times over, and we do watch people die.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

Right.

SPEAKER_03 24:57

For a kind of macabre entertainment.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

Right.

SPEAKER_03 25:00

And as far as doing harm, I think that depends upon how you define and measure harm. Right. Like is harm always just physical? Or when we build a narrative about our culture, about other cultures, about human beings, about the value of life, and we put out there the toxicity involving that, aren't we doing harm?

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Right. I agree. So that was my point that I was trying to make. And there was a point to which we were having this discussion that, well, not irreparable harm, but I think there's irreparable harm in a lot of those activities. And we see that definitely here, dystopian literature, lit RPG in this case, but there are strong dystopian elements, brings that to light and exaggerates it to an extent. But in today's world, as we talk about the internet not being a safe space, I don't find it to be as much of an exaggeration as other people do. I know that Carl and Donut are fighting for their lives in this, and people are sponsoring them, and people are tuning in to watch them on the day-to-day and maybe hoping they don't die or waiting for the next big exciting moment. But it's just cringe worthy and it is all too familiar. I know when we talked about, you know, the intro, is that familiar? Yes, it is. Actually, shockingly so.

SPEAKER_03 26:24

I agree, you know, and as far as harm goes, again, you will get over physical harm, most likely. But what about emotional and psychological manipulation?

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Right.

SPEAKER_03 26:35

You know, in a way, it makes me kind of see the audience as a kind of victim, at least the popular audience in this alien world, because they are being manipulated as well.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Right. This is being normalized. The people in charge are making money off of this. They're making money off of the audience and the audience's investment. And it's being normalized. This violence is being normalized for that audience. The audience is irreparably harmed, I would argue. And of course, obviously, the crawlers are irreparably harmed in many, many cases, but not just death, not just physical mutilation. It's the psychological harm. And I think one of the ways Matt really shows that very beautifully is when we look at the character of Donut because she starts as such a blank slate in this series when she obtains consciousness, when she begins to express herself and her royalty and all of those things. But then we quickly see that there's a level on which Donut is just very childlike and vulnerable. We see her progression as we get into doomsday scenario and then we move forward and we realize and see in real time, if you will, the irreparable damage that's being done on someone that had no inclinations toward this, regardless of whether we think think cats have inclinations toward violence. In this particular case, Donut is simply this childlike blank slate that begins to be written on in a very damaging way, potentially.

SPEAKER_03 28:10

And Carl frequently, and it begins in this book, I think, frets over her loss of innocence.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Right.

SPEAKER_03 28:16

Over the slow, kind of jaded attitude that she starts to express. I mean, still beautifully cute, wonderful, but she has to cuddly cat. Eventually she commits war crimes for crying out loud.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Yes, she has a war crime spell later on in the book, but we digress later on in the series.

SPEAKER_03 28:31

But Carl, too. We also have to discuss how Carl himself is fighting that dehumanization.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

Right. Well, Carl wants to abstain from so many things originally. And then he realizes that that kind of action is not meaningful and it's certainly not going to keep Donut and him alive. And so he has to begin to be more calculated and even manipulative in what's going on in his own actions in the game, and then how he's going to use the system against itself when he can, which certainly comes up in this, especially with the Zarina Signet storyline, when Carl realizes this is all a show, this is all a TV show. And now I'm going to leverage my popularity and I'm going to use the system to work against the system. And that's one of the first moments where he decides to do that is in

Personhood In A Manufactured World

SPEAKER_00 29:22

this book. And we begin to see him calculate. I think there is a really good question that's posed in this book that really gets much more real later on. And that is does Carl become part of the system at some point?

SPEAKER_03 29:35

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Because when you work so well within the system, do you just get absorbed into it?

SPEAKER_03 29:40

Well, I think it a good discussion that people should have surrounding this book and Carl's decisions and all the characters' decisions are kind of like the discussion we had last week about Sloughfoot, the idea of good and evil and whether or not it's ever really that simple. You know, Carl has to navigate morality throughout this process. And he doesn't always make the decisions I would have made. He doesn't always make perfect decisions, and he doesn't always make the right decision.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

Right. At least right by the way we would define it, sitting on the outside.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

And sometimes he has no choice. Like with the hoarder, for example. I mean, that he that was an awful situation to have put in, but he had to kill this victim in order to get out of this system. And one of the important things we do learn about this book is we learn a lot more about how many victims there actually are in the dungeon beyond the crawlers. We learn about the NPCs, but we also learn more about the former crawlers that are basically enslaved for a number of years to the system and how they die and then they get reborn and their memories get rewritten and their whole lives get fabricated. And over and over and over and over again for centuries, they are just basically products for the dungeon to abuse and use in these horrible ways.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

And that kind that realization kind of starts back with the goblins on in the first book. You know, all those goblin babies. But really, the goblins in the conversation when they talk about wanting to get to the lower levels and be safer and actually be able to live their lives out, and they kind of have this whole thought process that is posed to us early on. It really becomes real in this book, and you have to stop and consider it. Are these people?

SPEAKER_03 31:24

I would say so. I always I always say, does the person have a sense of self? Does the person have a sense of history of the present and a hope for the future? Then yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Right. These are not code. This is not just simply ones and zeros that are responding in a system. This is organic matter with a consciousness.

SPEAKER_03 31:43

And even if it's fabricated, even if the history in the life is fabricated, it still constitutes as personhood, in my opinion. And you know, we could say the same about Donut. Does Donut become a person or is she a pet?

SPEAKER_00 31:55

I say she's a person.

SPEAKER_03 31:57

And I think Carl actually already realizes that because there is a sad moment where Donut runs after Mongo when he's in danger, and Carl says, we don't put our lives in danger for our pet. For a pet.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 32:11

And Donut stares at him like she's been slapped, you know. But Carl does say that because he doesn't consider her his pet any longer. Right. First of all. But it still hurts, of course.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

And let's say Carl would put his life in in danger for the pet because the man went outside with no pants on in the freezing winter to get Donut out of that tree. So I just have to say for a second that Carl really is the quintessential pet owner and loves his pet so much that he would sacrifice himself for her on some level. But you're right, at that point he has stopped considering her a pet.

SPEAKER_03 32:46

Right. So we were talking about all these different victims within the dungeon and then their personhood. But also now we got to look at Carl's situation and Donut's situation, and indeed all the crawlers' situation, because now it's like they have to value different lives and different people. There's a ranking of there's a ranking, there's a ranking. I get the feeling that in Carl's mind, it's it's donut first, all my found family second, the rest of the crawlers, and then last and least, the NPCs. Because he is fully willing, even after he learns about the victimization of these NPCs and former crawlers, he is fully willing to kill them to protect those closest to him. And he demonstrates that all the time. And so is there a way to navigate the dungeon and still have the moral high ground?

SPEAKER_00 33:34

No, I think you sacrifice an element of your morality. I think that there ceases to be a traditional moral high ground in these books because you've been put into a completely immoral situation. It's an immoral situation to be thrown into violence is entertainment, to be simply a celebrity that someone's waiting to see if you're going to get killed. You have to survive. And so the only moral high ground that Carl can claim in any way is that his desire, his active desire to work against the system, right? To ultimately end the process in total. And while he doesn't fully realize that in book two, he is realizing that in book two. I think that decision begins to be made when he decides to use the Tsarina signet quest against itself, when he decides to make these very strategic choices. I think that he is realizing that his one ace in the hole, if you will, is working against the system. So on that level, he may attain some amount of moral high ground that we can justify. But in the end, he's going to have to kill people that don't necessarily deserve to be killed. He's going to have to make sacrifices along the way that are going to simply be collateral damage to his ultimate goal.

SPEAKER_03 34:55

Good of the many outweighs the good of the few.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

Right.

SPEAKER_03 34:57

And the ins will justify the means. Right. So let's discuss some of the more important decisions that are actually made

Carl’s Choices And Moral Collapse

SPEAKER_03 35:04

in this book. Right away, of course, there's the decision for Carl and Donut to choose their race and their class.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

Right.

SPEAKER_03 35:10

And so Carl chooses to become something called a primal, which becomes very important because the primals are so supposedly the progenitors of the entire universe, essentially.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Right, which I think is very symbolic in the grand scheme of things.

SPEAKER_03 35:24

Yes, yes. Because there's something, there's a connection with the AI as well there, I think. But and then of course, Donut decides to be a cat.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Right. Because is there any other more wonderful choice to make? I don't think so. We should all want to be a cat like Donut.

SPEAKER_03 35:40

And uh she goes with the class uh former child actress?

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Yes, and that way she can change classes, which makes her very interesting dynamic become even more interesting because there's this constant negotiation of where her focus is going to be level to level.

SPEAKER_03 35:55

Yeah, and that that's really um hilarious. And then, of course, Carl chooses to be a compensated anarchist, which is brilliant and sets us up for the rest of the book. And we learn that uh on the sixth floor, they're going to be facing hunters that kind of are people who are fans of the show, they're rich assholes that can come into the sixth floor and basically hunt the crawlers, but death is permanent for them.

unknown 36:20

Right.

SPEAKER_03 36:21

They are putting their lives on the risk. It's kind of like those safari guys, you know, going out there to hunt the lions.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Right.

SPEAKER_03 36:27

That's kind of that's kind of what the sixth floor is going to be. You already mentioned that Carl chooses to go on Zarina Signet show and manipulate that situation. Also, he chooses to go on another show later on. Well, they're forced to go on a show called The Danger Zone with Ripper Wonton. And on that show, Carl makes some choices, some choices that have consequences.

SPEAKER_02 36:48

He does.

SPEAKER_03 36:48

Uh, one of the things that he goes on there to do is antagonize the Skull Empire, King Rust, uh, the Maestro and his brother, and makes some provocative statements about that. And he also plants some political, some seeds of political unrest amongst the people of the Skull Empire intentionally. And immediately there are some consequences because Prince Stalwart fires upon the ship that he believes Carl and Donut are in. However, they're not in it because of a last-minute change, and they end up killing a pop star called Manasseh. And there's an interesting thing that's said there. Princess Denadia starts crying, and she goes, She goes, She was a real person. She was a real person and now she's gone. And Carl's just like, Fuck you. Yeah. How dare you turn a blind eye to all of my people who are being killed and find us entertaining, and then and then now you're gonna have grief over this person. But this is a thing that comes up a lot over and over again in the series. The people outside the dungeon comment of how we're real people, we're real people. He was a real person and now he's gone.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

I think that in a very universal sense, applying it to the real world, he is very accurately identifying the objectification we engage in on a regular basis. Like, I've been watching social media respond to Hayden Panateri's death. That's correct, right? Her name. And I think there's a bit of voyeurism that goes on there, right? Do you see her as a real person? I want to really ask that question. I asked that question of our audience right now because I think we see her as a headline. I think we see her as the role she played. I don't know that we really internalize her struggle. We have become voyeurs in waiting for the autopsy to come out, voyeurs in waiting to hear about her mental illness or about anything else that was going on, the clips that are already playing on TikTok and social media. I would argue that we take personhood away from people that are entertaining us all the time. And I think that Matt is directly drawing that parallel here. I think certainly it has ramifications for the rest of the series, but I think that we're seeing ourselves in this mirror.

SPEAKER_03 39:13

Yeah, I agree. You know, there's a part of me when a celebrity dies and I see that it's happened. There's a part of me that's like, I need to be the first to tell somebody about this.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Right. Oh my God, let's repost and let's say RIP as fast as possible.

SPEAKER_03 39:27

Exactly, exactly. And then there's also the thing that goes on in our heads that we just we deal with death so casually in the world. Like, for example, I think depending upon its proximity to us personally, we see it as more real. Like an earthquake can happen in India and they could lose a million people. And we hear that number and we're like, oh, that's terrible, but it hardly feels real to us.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

As human beings, we have a remarkable lack of empathy. Even those of us that think in an empathetic way and want to think that we do not, we have a remarkable lack of empathy. It is really difficult to really feel the weight of someone else's tragedy. It is difficult to look on the TV with news reports and feel the weight of someone's tragedy that's taken place across an ocean. I think that we have just desensitized ourselves so much, even those of us that want social justice, that are worried about other people theoretically are desensitized to the actual grief that other people experience. And I think that's very important to understand. They become objects to us.

SPEAKER_03 40:33

I agree. I think we we equate reality and relationship. And when we have no relationship to that reality, we don't feel the realness of the people who are occupying that space. You know, even other drivers. You know what I mean? The things that I would shout at a car versus a human being face to face are completely different. Completely different.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

So let me ask you this. So there are people in the real world in Dungeon Crawler Carl and Doomsday Scenario in the books that go on that form these fan clubs for Donut and for Carl, particularly for Donut, because she's such, there's such a cult of personality there. Do you think they really feel a relationship toward her? Do you think that if she died, they would be devastated? Where does relationship authentically start? Because you're saying we equate relationship and that makes it more real to us. But I think a lot of people think they're in relationship with certain people and they don't really know what relationship is. So I question the relationship like of these people that quote unquote love Carl and Donut, love donut. They're gonna be a donut hole for life, even though that's unauthorized, or they're gonna be part of the princess posse. I don't think they know what empathy is or real relationship.

SPEAKER_03 41:53

There you go. Yeah, I don't think you have a real relationship until you've developed empathy.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

Right.

SPEAKER_03 41:58

And I don't think you can have empathy truly, truly in a relationship until you until you know that person.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

So how many of us do you think really have true empathy?

SPEAKER_03 42:06

Well, I mean, I think there are different levels. I think there is there is a sense of corporate empathy. You can have empathy on some level with a population, right? With a country, with a group or a minority, but it grows depending upon proximity to that person and your relationship with them or those people. So I I do think there is a there is a a distant form of empathy that you can have, but it becomes stronger as you grow in relationship.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Yeah. I just struggle with this because I feel like if we have authentic empathy, you can't turn on the news and watch what's going on in another country where people are being robbed of their homes and people's children are being killed and people's livelihoods are being taken away. I don't think you can watch the news and not shed tears about that. Like I really am emotionally, this is why my therapist said I couldn't watch the news anymore. I am somewhat emotionally devastated by the things that I see are happening to other people. I can certainly turn off that part of myself and go eat my breakfast and have a good day and not think about it for the rest of the time as well. But I just think empathy is so rare and it's so exclusive.

SPEAKER_03 43:15

I agree. So we we can't end our discussion yet without talking about some very important things that

Audience Guilt And Empathy Limits

SPEAKER_03 43:20

do happen in this book. So obviously, we already mentioned Katya Grimm getting introduced as a character. She becomes such a great character. I love her development and I love the depth that Matt brings to her past and how he creates this very sympathetic person.

SPEAKER_02 43:37

Right.

SPEAKER_03 43:38

And imperfect person, too, which I also appreciated. Donut does get the daughter of the Oakfell bracelets.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

Which is really important.

SPEAKER_03 43:47

Which is very, very important in this book. And we also and perhaps what will turn out to be most important, he gets the doomsday scenario, the bomb that almost goes off at the end of the book that he traps inside of this indestructible glass box, this right?

SPEAKER_00 44:04

And then he places in his inventory to keep stagnant.

SPEAKER_03 44:06

And it's like literally in the process of exploding. And if he takes that out, it's gonna explode and destroy everything. It's like an it's like he's got a nuke inside of his inventory.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

Which would make me really nervous as a character.

SPEAKER_03 44:19

And that has uh you just have to know. We're at the I'll spoiler, eighth book, and he still hasn't obviously done anything with it. How mean how can he? You just have to know that's gonna be a major, major plot point for the future.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

Right. I agree. So this book lays a foundation for so many things, and that is key as we get those of us that have gotten all the way through the eighth book know that those things all come back into play.

SPEAKER_03 44:46

Yeah, the doomsday scenario and donut being the oak fell are huge. Also, she has to take off her crown of the sepsis whore. Right. In this, because at the end, it's gonna all the magical items are have the potential to blow up because this crystal is kind of surging, and every time it does, something reacts, right?

SPEAKER_00 45:04

And so she takes it off, which means that now it goes back out there and can be given to someone else, which of course, spoiler alert, it does get given to someone else.

SPEAKER_03 45:12

Exactly. So these are important events: the signet, the joining of the TV show, the Oakfell, the crown, the doomsday scenario, and just everything we learn about the industry that's driving this game. It makes this book so very crucial to setting up the series.

SPEAKER_00 45:28

I feel like the AI is really instrumental in all of this because Carl can't plan all of the things that are important in this book that lead later. Like he has a strategy and he's definitely trying to plan out the way to take down the system. But the AI is really instrumental in making sure that certain things are introduced, and then of course, in in bringing those things back in, and that goes with the Zarina Signet, with the Oakfell, with any of those elements, right? Those aren't things Carl can predict, but the AI can predict it because the AI is dictating direction to a certain extent. So I have a question for you AI, tool, slave, villain, emerging consciousness or something else. What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 46:14

Tool, slave, emerging consciousness. Not a villain. Not in my mind yet. Not that he doesn't have blood on his hands. Right. However, we have to argue how much is his emerging consciousness and how much is a product of his programming. So there is a balance there. And like you said, it almost seems in the way he interacts with Carl, despite the whole foot fetish thing. Yeah. That he's intentionally pushing Carl in certain directions. He has to be. Right. Otherwise, things are a little too providential for Carl. I mean, he as long as he stays on the AI's good side. Not that the AI doesn't threaten to kill him.

SPEAKER_00 46:52

Right. But the logic only makes sense if the AI is given that role as being almost godlike in Carl's decision-making process because the AI fills in the gaps. Otherwise, things would be far too, like you said, providential, but just coincidental, lucky, all those things. So there is a ducex machina with the AI.

SPEAKER_03 47:14

And maybe it just starts out as good TV.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

Right.

SPEAKER_03 47:17

But I think it develops into more than that over time as the AI starts to break his bonds.

SPEAKER_02 47:26

Right.

SPEAKER_03 47:26

And I think then the tit for tat with Carl is a little bit more on the same page as Carl in a way.

SPEAKER_00 47:33

Yeah. And then you start to question whether the AI has developed empathy. And I know there are a lot of points in the series where that is highly questionable, but there's part of me that wants the AI to be a good guy on some level that wants that empathy to be there. I'm not sure that it will be in the end, but you definitely start to sense some of that partiality.

SPEAKER_03 47:55

Well, is he any worse than Carl if he also has a pecking order of preservation of life as well? Because he's an AI, right? Right. And so his situation and the situation of his fellow AIs are going to be most important to him. And what he's willing to do to change that and to bring that system down is similar to Carl in many ways.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

So we're asserting that the AI has a moral structure.

SPEAKER_03 48:25

Yeah. I would.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

Yeah. And that's what I always question because there have been highs and lows in this series. But in this book, you do start to really question is there a moral structure there with the AI? Is he trying to help Carl? What is what is the ultimate motivation?

SPEAKER_03 48:43

I would say that Carl is definitely the AI's tool.

SPEAKER_00 48:46

Right.

SPEAKER_03 48:47

Whatever, whatever he's using him for, he's using him.

SPEAKER_01 48:50

Right.

SPEAKER_03 48:51

Okay, so the audience now, the audience, we've already talked about them as victims, but in in what way are the aliens who watch the dungeon without directly harming anyone morally guilty?

SPEAKER_00 49:02

I say yes. I have to emphasize that because I think that at this point, you know, if you're one of the aliens in the galaxy, you know what's happening to these worlds, you know that this is like a survivor type show that you're watching, except that you know death is happening around every corner and you are being entertained by it. I think there is a sense of moral guilt because the audience is funding the system. Because without the audience, this goes away. So if the audience stopped watching, then there would be no dungeon crawler world, right?

SPEAKER_03 49:42

Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:42

So I would I would claim that they are morally guilty.

SPEAKER_03 49:45

Do you think that every human being or person is imbued with a basic sense of decency that should be enough to overcome the moral and the moral conditioning that we go through? Like for I mean, like when I said that they were they were victims, only to the degree that I think a child who's told that a certain race is lesser than them or a certain gender is lesser than them is a victim of their parents and the psychological abuse and manipulation. But does that mean that they cannot overcome that kind of conditioning?

SPEAKER_00 50:24

Okay, so I think as far as being born with a moral sense, of course, people that are highly religious, you know, we get into this, you know, question of a litmus test of morality that goes on all the time. But on a very basic sense, we are all born with the desire to preserve our personhood, to keep our physical space and mental space safe. We are born with that desire. So in so much as we know that we do not want to be harmed, we then have to inherently know, implicitly know that someone else does not want to be harmed either. And see, on that level, I think that we have a very basic moral structure from the very beginning. We may all be narcissists in the beginning to a certain extent before we adapt to society and a greater understanding of the people around us, but implicitly we have to know that if we do not want to be harmed, then harming someone else would be wrong.

SPEAKER_03 51:18

And I think that's true, but I also see, as far as history goes, that we are inherently tribal as far as how we initially exercise our innate sense of human decency that you're speaking about. It is first and foremost extended to those that we feel are of our own tribe. And that's where we get all this new tribal warfare, racism and xenophobia, and all these things that we see throughout history developing. I do think so that maybe extending that innate sense of decency beyond our tribe is somewhat of a cultural and social development.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

And I agree with you on the tribal thing. I think that innate sense of understanding is there about not wanting to be harmed and therefore the lack of desire to harm should also follow. However, it is a social development because when we stop just simply needing to survive and we're living in that survival mode, and then we're living day to day with people outside of just that basic survival, then we have to develop and extend that further to the people around us.

SPEAKER_03 52:23

Yeah, right. Do you think there are levels of culpability too? I mean, for example, we know that certain brands and products and stores and corporations exploit children and other people around the world, and yet we still partake. Support those. Right. Is it that level of culpability the same as, say, Germans turning a blind eye to what was happening to the Jews in Nazi Germany?

SPEAKER_00 52:46

Well, I think you have ramifications of specific types of harm going on. But yes, the culpability is in the same basic range. Because if you're buying from certain companies and children are enslaved in those countries to make whatever product you're buying, and children could potentially be killed in the industry that exists there in the unsafe conditions, with just the thought of child labor, then to a certain extent, that is definitely something that can be measured alongside more direct harm.

SPEAKER_03 53:18

I would agree. But in the spirit of not being judgmental of others and looking introspectively, I would say that I think it's impossible for us to not have any blind spot when it comes to empathy, harm, morality.

SPEAKER_00 53:33

And I agree. I buy cheap clothes. So, you know, I know that there are websites, that there are apps that are things that I use that are to my own benefit as I try to survive financially, that may in turn mean I'm supporting something that could be harming or taking advantage of another group of people. I think that I'm not sitting in a place of judgment because I'm culpable. But when we talk about moral culpability, I would leverage that at myself in the same way that I would leverage it at the audience here. They are simply watching, they have been conditioned to watch. This is their form of entertainment. They believe they're investing in these characters as they support them and cheer for them and root them on, but in the end, they are contributing to their ruination. And I don't know that there aren't many times in my own life I'm doing the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 54:31

Right. Yeah, I would agree.

Donut’s Personhood And Carl’s Change

SPEAKER_00 54:33

So we'll go to donut for a second, switch to something lighter, although I think it leads us down an important train of thought. Donut, pet, partner, person, or is it insulting to even ask that question at this point?

SPEAKER_03 54:45

Oh, I there's no question anymore. Yeah. Person.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

Yeah, she's a person. I agree.

SPEAKER_03 54:50

And partner.

SPEAKER_00 54:50

Yeah. I mean, I think she's a fully equal part of the relationship that exists between her and Carl at this point. It may not have started that way, but it is certainly there now.

SPEAKER_03 55:00

Right. Is Carl becoming a better person because of the dungeon or simply a more dangerous one?

SPEAKER_00 55:08

I think you stopped being able to define what better is at this point. I think that better does not exist. I think he's becoming a bolder person. I think he's becoming a smarter person. I think he's becoming a more strategic person. But I don't think we can measure better in the same way because that is that moral conundrum that we presented earlier. Does he have the moral high ground? Well, if we could say that with really in a conclusive way, we would be redefining morality to a certain extent. So better, I don't think that even exists.

SPEAKER_03 55:42

Yeah, it's all going back to our conversation about Sloughfoot when we tried to look for the good guy. We have to realize that black and white, good and evil, is a myth.

SPEAKER_00 55:50

Right. It doesn't really exist in that way.

SPEAKER_03 55:53

Morality is really a matter of navigating harm.

SPEAKER_00 55:57

Right. In a series of gray areas. And I think we want the easy answer. It's much easier to label someone as evil and someone as good. And then there's just no question in between. And that makes my life more comfortable for us. But there aren't those comfortable answers. Carl isn't becoming a better person. He's becoming the person he has to become.

SPEAKER_03 56:18

In doing so, he's trying to do as little harm as possible, which is as good as you can expect.

SPEAKER_00 56:23

Right. And I think if he can do the most good and do the least harm, then he is my hero in this book, even if he has to sacrifice people along the way.

SPEAKER_03 56:32

I agree.

SPEAKER_00 56:33

All right.

What We Read Next

SPEAKER_00 56:34

Well, that kind of brings us to the conclusion of our discussion. So, Peter, what are we reading next time?

SPEAKER_03 56:41

So, Anderson W. Frost, who wrote Thorns, Feathers, and Bones, a book that we discussed on a previous episode and absolutely loved it, was kind enough to send us an advanced reader copy of his novella set in that same world called Montclair. Now, I believe it has been officially published. So we are going to talk about it now that it's been published. Right. But we will be discussing that in the next episode.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

And I'm seriously excited about that because I get excited about a lot of books, but it's really cool to get to know an author and kind of be on the ground level here with some of the things he's developing. And so that's going to be a really fun conversation and very meaningful in a lot of ways. So I think that's awesome. So I'm looking forward to it. So that's what you will be tuning into next time. Until then, keep reading.

SPEAKER_03 57:30

Keep thinking.

SPEAKER_00 57:31

And we will talk to you again soon. Bye.