Surviving Systems Abuse

We speak with family lawyer and Divorce Detox founder Cassandra Calpaxis about how coercive control can continue through separation and be amplified by the family court process. We focus on practical steps that protect victim survivors, strengthen evidence, and reduce the chaos that abusers rely on. 

• what systems abuse looks like in family court and how it plays out in real time

• last-minute disclosure, repeated filings, and baseless allegations as coercive tactics 

• record keeping as protection against gaslighting and memory disruption 

• why affidavits carry so much weight at interim hearings

• how recent family law reforms sharpen the focus on child safety and safe co-parenting 

• early warning signs of emotional abuse including love-bombing and isolation 

• technology-facilitated abuse through tracking, social media maps, AirTags and smart devices 

• why coercive control prosecutions are rare and what that means on the ground 

• practical ways to make court safer including remote appearances and safety plans 

• the childcare and breastfeeding gaps that still disadvantage women 

• decompression and vicarious trauma strategies for people working in this space 

Join us on Instagram or at ladynews.com.au

Episode Resources 

You can chat with DV specific AI, Aimee Says 24/7 at https://www.ladynews.com.au/

https://kalpaxislegal.com.au/about-us/

https://www.theduluthmodel.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/PowerandControl.pdf

You can also live chat with https://www.beyondblue.org.au/

and https://1800respect.org.au/online-chat-1800respect

Transcript

Safety Warning And Series Aim

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Before we begin, we want to acknowledge that this podcast discusses domestic and family violence. Please take care while listening. And if you need support, resources are available in the show notes or on our website at ladynews.com.au. Lady News with Elise and Penny. Welcome to episode 4 of the Lady News Power and Control Series, where Penny and I speak with victim survivors of domestic violence alongside experts working in this space. Our focus is really simple. It's to provide information that empowers people navigating some of the hardest moments of their life. Especially when those experiences intersect with complex systems like the family court, child protection, policing, or legal processes. Throughout the series, we often reference the power and control wheel to help unpack the patterns that sit underneath abusive relationships. In this episode, our conversation particularly relates to themes including using coercion and threats, using emotional abuse, and minimizing, denying and blaming. Patterns many victim survivors encounter during separation, post-separation abuse, and family court proceedings. This is the advice you need before you even leave the relationship. It's the episode I wish existed when I was deep in the trenches of the family court system, or even before I got into the trench, it would have been handy. We're joined by Cassandra Calpaxis, founder of the Divorce Detox, Australia's first holistic retreat designed for women going through or contemplating separation and divorce. Cassandra is also the founder and principal lawyer of Calpaxis Legal, an award-winning family law firm recognized for its compassionate and innovative approach to family law. A best-selling author and advocate for dignified separation, women's financial independence, and domestic violence education. Cassandra has become a leading voice in reshaping how women experience separation and recovery. Throughout Cassandra's career, she has guided families through high conflict parenting disputes, complex separations involving significant assets, and international custody matters, as well as fertility-related legal issues including IVF, surrogacy, and paternity disputes. This conversation particularly explores the realities many women face during separation. Coercive control, post-separation abuse, and navigating a very tricky family court system while at the same time trying to rebuild safety, identity, and financial independence. Does it sound familiar? It's an honest, practical, and deeply validating conversation for anyone trying to survive and rebuild through separation, family violence, and the systems that follow.

Systems Abuse Through Family Court

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Systems abuse is the further perpetration of coercive control or domestic violence through basically the family court process. It's not the process itself, it's the way in which the litigant shows up in that process. Best example I could give, there might be an order for disclosure, for example, if you're going through a property settlement. And that's a really standard thing that everybody has to do as part of their property dispute. Everybody needs to show each other what's going on with their financial relationship. That person doesn't provide documents. That person waits until 9.30 a.m. on the morning of a hearing and then shows up with a liturgy of documents and says, Oh, well, I complied. I'm here. Here it is. The other person is saying, Well, hang on, there was an order for you to do these three months ago. You've come to court today at 9.30, you've given me a thousand papers, and I'm expected to go through it. So the outcome of that is either an adjournment, which has cost someone money to be there and you might get a cost order, but it's not going to be to the extent of what you spent. Or alternatively, the matter proceeds, but there's an element of procedural unfairness to the person who did the right thing and showed up. Another example of that might be the filing of just application after application after application that really has no merit. And despite it having no merit, the person on the other end has to go to the extent of preparing responses, seeing their lawyer, seeing their barrister, seeing their accountant, going through the motions, unfortunately, of having to deal with that application. It might be the further perpetration of allegations that really just have no foundation, and that's where the gaslighting comes in. It might be behaviors that the perpetrator actually did during the relationship and post-separation that they then use as allegations against the victim, despite the fact that they were the ones who did it. We see that quite often.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

What does a victim survivor do in that situation where the perpetrator is saying that the victim actually committed the

Evidence That Counters Gaslighting

SPEAKER_00 5:30

family violence? What what do you do in that situation?

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Normally when people have come to see me at that point in time we're talking about record keeping, and record keeping when there's gaslighting is absolutely crucial, not only for the mental health of the victim survivor, but also for the way in which the family court processes these types of allegations. So it might be that I have diary entries from the victim survivor who contemporaneously was writing things down when they were occurring. It might be records of going to doctor's appointments or the psychologist or any type of professional who has also made contemporaneous notes of those things. Because it's one thing to make an allegation, but it's very different to have the evidence around it. And normally, the person who has perpetrated these things doesn't really come to court with that evidence because that evidence would demonstrate that they were the ones who did it. So it's really about the victim survivor making sure that they have those records to be able to counter it.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

And what happens if the victim survivor doesn't have any notes or records because they didn't think they would ever find themselves in the family court?

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Or alternatively, didn't really understand that they were the victim of domestic violence. More often than not, they are the tricky ones that I have to deal with. And what makes or breaks a case around that is the affidavit. And it's the preparation of the evidence around that. With really stringent reference to these incidents with explanation, recollection, conversations. It might be that subsequent to that event, there was another event that springboarded off that that I can use and bring into the evidence. But it's the lack of preparation around the material that the court has to consider that then brings a victim survivor into a very difficult set of circumstances when there is no contemporaneous evidence to support those allegations.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

So the takeaway from that is take notes.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Not only is it take notes, but talk to people. Yeah. If you're in a relationship where you're being gaslit, the impact of that on your mental health is absolutely detrimental. And we know that gaslighting generally falls hand in hand with narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder, most of the time undiagnosed. And the only way to deal with those people is for you to take notes for yourself.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

Especially if it's your first rodeo in an abusive relationship. You just don't know. No, and a and a lot of the time it takes a professional to say to you, or you know, what Penny and I refer back to the power and control wheel. Where you will be asked, like, is this happening? Is that happening? And then you have this epiphany, and you know, it has a label, and then you kind of start taking notes from that point on. So I guess historically in the court, judges must be in a very tricky position. When it comes to evidence, like how do they, you know, sit there with this person saying, you know, two two parties saying they're both doing the same thing to each other. Does it get to a point where it's like, who is the better of the two? Who is the better parent?

SPEAKER_01 8:49

What happens in the court process is actually really interesting. And this is where most people don't understand what goes on in the family court. So these allegations at an interim hearing, which is your really your first big hearing that you're going to to talk about parenting matters, nobody gets into the witness box on that occasion. So I'm not trusting your credibility. I'm not able to cross-examine you at that point in time and put documents to you and say, well, you said this, but actually what about this? The only way a court gets to hear evidence at that event is through the affidavit that is prepared. And most of the time in New South Wales a child impact report, in Queensland and Melbourne it might be a family report. So it is a very difficult position for a judge to be in where if you're appearing in a family violence case as a victim survivor or a perpetrator, and your affidavit is lacking, the court's hands are tied at that point in time. Because they can only go off the evidence that you put before it. And I've had victim survivors look at me at the bar table and go, Oh my god, I just remembered something. And I say, Well, that's helpful, but it's not helpful because I can't make submissions from the bar table that can be considered with significant weight because it needed to have been in the documents. And what we're working with is memory and trauma, where a lot of those memories have been repressed or deleted in order for a victim survivor to get up parent children and get on with their life. And then we're asking them to be able to go back inside that memory bank to pull those things out and put on an affidavit, which is really

What Family Court Can And Cannot Do

SPEAKER_01 10:32

hard.

SPEAKER_02 10:32

What are your thoughts about totally reforming the family court for it to no longer even be a court? Have you ever had, you know, conversations around what would an alternative be? Because it's not a criminal court. You know, it's a family court. You're dealing with young children, complex family dynamics. Is it really a place for the family?

SPEAKER_01 11:00

I think that there has to be somewhere for people to go. Let's just start there. You've got a dispute between families. Most families who get along really well and are really child-focused and are both emotionally intelligent, stable people, don't end up in the family court. So those people are never the people who end up there. Then we have a sect of the population where one person might be really emotionally intelligent and capable and a really great parent, but then the other parent has some difficulties. Where do those people go if we don't have a system that has the checks and balances of the psychology, which we absolutely need to inform ourselves about the mental health that might be going on, or the addiction, or the lack of insight? It's not a perfect system, let me be clear. I've worked in this system now for 17 years. Does it need an overhaul? Sure. But what does that overhaul look like? And this is the rhetoric that is going on and has been going on since the inception of the family court. I think what we have is a system that recognizes the issues and they try and fix it. And there's an acknowledgement within the court itself that there's problems. But my question to everyone, including the armchair lawyers that I spend a lot of time talking to online, is how do we fix it? What is the situation? How do I protect a victim's survivor if they can't come to the court?

Family Law Reforms And Child Safety

SPEAKER_00 12:36

So last year Australia introduced significant changes to the family law system through amendments and reforms. And they had a stronger focus on best interests of the safety of children, and they've um removed the presumption of equal shared parental responsibility. Have these reforms made a difference?

SPEAKER_01 12:55

I do think they have made a difference. I think that we are now only looking at relationships between parents and children when it's safe to do so. Gone is this entitlement mentality of, well, if the child is spending time with me, therefore I have a presumption of PR, or because I'm a parent, the presumption is already in my favour. We are now going to that extra step of, okay, you might cross the threshold of you've got a relationship with this child, that's fine. But are you a safe person to do that? Being safe is not just being about are you a good parent to that child. It's are you able to co-parent with the other party? And that really wasn't the focus previously. And I think the court is doing a very good job of putting that at the forefront now than what we were 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

That was a very, you know, good thing to highlight that judges do look at the co-parenting capability. Where does your background in, you know, your divorce detox come into coaching your clients into that positive co-parenting space?

Divorce Grief And Finding Community

SPEAKER_01 14:05

So my other degree that I have is social science. And for me, I've always been fascinated by the relationship between parents and the impact on a child. And let's face it, going through a divorce is really akin to the grief process. You lose somebody, there's a grieving period, we allow you to feel those emotions, everybody rallies around you for support. We don't really get that in a separation. And instead, there is this rhetoric that society has that divorce is horrible and you need to hate your partner, and everybody's worried about, you know, the other person ripping them off. And that's really not in the best interest of children. And so when I was working with people and they were coming to me and they were really frustrated and they couldn't work out what they needed to do, and they felt like they were alone and they were anchoring on to their children for the sake of trying to keep one stable thing in their life, it became obvious to me that what people needed was community. What they needed was a safe space to share those things, to be able to navigate the grief process the same way we would if somebody had passed away. Without that judgment, without feeling like they needed to hide that they were going through a separation, and to have a lifeline to somebody else who was also going through it. And when I created those retreats, it was a really beautiful opportunity, and I still get photos today of women who have met each other at these retreats who have the most amazing friendships and have gone off to do their own incredible things in the divorce space, where they were able to unpack with each other. And instead of doing that with the children, who were then weaponized as part of that process, they had that outlet and they encouraged each other. And it really has changed the way that these people have co-parented with their spouses.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

That must be the most rewarding part of your job, Cassandra, where you see the evolution of, you know, women coming out of it and turning, I guess, their pain into purpose in some.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Most definitely. Not only just for people who are going through the separation process themselves, but when I have a victim survivor who comes in and sees me, and most of the time they're not even aware. To some degree, they know that something's wrong, but they never really understood the extent of it. And I get that person through the process and they are safe and we're able to try and implement strategies in their life to change what they've gone through. That is the most rewarding part about

When Co-Parenting With Abusers Works

SPEAKER_01 16:26

my job.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Yeah, if there is a victim survivor and the other partner is abusive, is it actually possible for an amicable divorce to happen? Or is there just kind of no hope?

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Great question. That depends on the extent of the emotional awareness of the abuser, depends on what they're prepared to do. It depends on the extent of the work that they're able to do, depends on what orders I can put in place around communication, it depends what type of access it's expected that the abuser would have with the victim survivor or the children. There have absolutely been cases where I've had an abusive partner who's then gone on to be able to co-parent with the victim survivor because of the scaffolding that we have put in place and very early on. And what becomes the new normal is the way in which they get access to that person, the way in which they're supposed to communicate, and the ground rules are really clear. It's really difficult to do that if someone is midway through proceedings. It hasn't really been raised up until then. I've got a perpetrator who's really used to controlling the narrative, and then I come in and I say, that's done now. That's not happening anymore. Actually, what we want is X, Y, and Z, and then you know there's a period where everyone's just doesn't know what's going on. That's really tricky, and it becomes really difficult for somebody to then kind of shift their position. But if you get in early, it absolutely is possible.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

So it's all about, I guess, early intervention when it comes to the direction and outcome of a family law matter. Yeah, it's crucial. I mean, I can only speak from my experience, but if I look back at that first 60 days, that was probably lacking. You know, even with um public lawyers and private lawyers, there was no kind of advice of like getting those facts correct to ensure that, you know, the direction of your case was going to be not just in the best interest of the child, but transparent in the events that happened. So when it comes to advocacy, I would really love to see a lot of more emphasis on that first 60 days, whether you're being triaged in like a public system, a department, or through your first interaction with a lawyer if you're going down the private route.

The First 60 Days Matter

SPEAKER_01 18:42

I guess for us, because I I mean all we do is family law, right? We're not experts in anything else.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

So when you come to see us, we're already thinking about what is the goal that you want to achieve, what is the problem that we need to try and get on top of quickly, what are the facts that are causing you to come into our office? And it's no secret that the family court, and I say this very openly, is the most regulated court for practitioners that exist in this country. We are told what size font we are able to use in the documents that we file. There is practice directions about the number of pages we get to rely on for your evidence, how many annexes. We have filing deadlines that if we do not meet, your evidence doesn't get before a judge. So it is not the case that it's the type of court, and I feel like sometimes this might be a problem with some practitioners, where if you don't do it every day, you don't know. But you don't just turn up to the family court and go, well, here it is, here's my 40-page affidavit that I use chat GPT to be able to draft, and I hope for the best, and you know, we'll just bat on with it, because that's not really the way that court works. And if I'm going to get the attention of the bench, and if I really want to get the best outcome, I need to be thoroughly preparing my case. I need to be thinking about what is the test that this court needs to apply? What evidence have you given me? What evidence do I need from you? What evidence do I need to think about getting from you with the assistance of another professional so that you don't leave my office further traumatized than what you were when you came in? You can't do that at lastminute.com. Not only for the court, but also for the obligations that I owe you as your lawyer and you as the litigant and my client. So early intervention is crucial. And I think what there needs to be is and what I would like to see is this younger generation of practitioners who are coming through, and it's not just the younger generation, but you know, if they're going to be the the future of the court, that we start doing some practical training. Not just the theory, but the day in the life of what it's supposed to be like.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

And that's where your social science background comes in. I think so.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

And I think it's really important. We can't expect people to do things that they don't know. And I don't think it's good enough that lived experience is what clients should be getting.

Early Signs And Tech Tracking

SPEAKER_02 21:07

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Cassandra, you're a domestic violence educator through your school program, not another girl. What are some of the early warning signs of coercive and emotional abuse that people should be aware of? And uh, does your program touch on helping people in the beginnings of the family court system?

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Okay, so two parts of that question. I'll answer the first one and then I'll move to the second part for you. Early signs of coercive control. The really popular one at the moment is this whole love-bombing situation coming on really, really strong early on. Everything being framed in a really I'm just doing this because I'm concerned, I'm just doing this because I love you, I'm just doing this because I I care about you type of way. That extending to things like not being able to have access to your own mobile phone without the other person knowing your password, not being able to leave the house without them knowing where you are, so that monitoring and Surveillance. And it's the ones who are clever are not the people who say, oh, you have to give it to me or else, because we know that that's the narrative that people look out for. But it's more along the lines of, of course, I would want to know where you are so that I know that you're safe. Of course, I want the PIN code to your phone to make sure that, you know, if I needed to get anything out of there for you, I could. Of course I want to read the text messages that you're getting from other people because I want to make sure that they're looking after you properly. And it's that clever calculated, manipulative type coercive control that I'm seeing more and more, and they're the early warning signs. It's very much, but why would you want to go out with the girls on a Friday when you could spend time with me, don't you love me? It's every time you want to go out with your mum, all of a sudden someone's sick, or they've got a headache that never goes away, and that headache happens to happen every Saturday. Or it's needing to leave early from an event. So, you know, it's an event that they didn't want to be at, and then at 5.31, when you got there at 5.20, all of a sudden, you know, there's an issue and they've got to go and you've got to come with them or you don't love them. They're the early things that I'm really starting to educate people around. Snapchat is a big one. This Snap map that these younger people are using, huge, huge problem. I'm seeing that being used as a mechanism for tracking. And I'm very concerned about the level of technology that is starting to emerge that is being used for the wrong reasons. And it is not being seen by the general public as an opportunity to use that for bad reasons, but I am seeing more and more of it being utilized that way.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Can we talk about what technology that is?

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Yeah, look, I think smart devices are starting to become very concerning. Air tags, huge bane of my existence. The whole maps that are attached to social media to be able to know where people are. The tagging of people in photographs and in videos without somebody else's permission when you are a victim survivor, puts that person's life at risk on occasion. So there are all of these problems that people are not aware of. And they think, oh, you know, I was out with the girls, I tagged everybody in the photo. Well, hang on, how do you know that that person was supposed to be there where that relationship they're in didn't actually give them permission to even be with you out at an event, which would have been innocent, but at home could turn into something where there is lethality. And it's educating people on these things that need to occur. And also as a parent, if you have a child that you think is in an abusive relationship, being more aware of the signs that that is occurring, and then adjusting your communication mechanisms with them to make sure that A, that they're safe, and B, that there is an appropriate mechanism if there is a problem to communicate

Coercive Control Laws Versus Reality

SPEAKER_01 25:06

that.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

How has the criminalization of coercive control changed family court outcomes?

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Well, here is the shocking statistics about the prosecution of coercive control in this country. As at I think September last year, two people had been prosecuted for coercive control since the introduction of that legislation. It is incredibly difficult to prove. It is incredibly difficult for police to action. I have a very big problem with the way that police deal with domestic violence in this country. I have a very big concern about the way that allegations of domestic violence are triaged at various police stations depending on your location, and depending upon the geographical makeup of domestic violence in that region, because of the limitation of police resources, and also I think what might be a general lack of education about how a victim survivor shows up in that space in the early stages. So, do I think we have a long way to go with coercive control? Absolutely. Do I think it's a nice idea in theory? Sure. But the practicality of a victim survivor going to a police station and saying, I'm the victim of coercive control, I need you to take action on the ground is a lot different to what the legislation says.

SPEAKER_02 26:33

That's the tricky part where, you know, people get really excited that all of a sudden there's a new law. But how is the law actually looking on the ground? Exactly. And obviously, you know, when you're seeing so many victim survivors coming through your doors, that must be really frustrating for you.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Yeah, not only is it frustrating for me, but it's frustrating for the people who deserve the action. It's frustrating as a victim survivor to have gotten the strength to be able to go in and recount the violence that you've that is your lived experience. To have to go through the trauma of sitting with somebody and giving the dates and the times and what happened. And then being met with no action or follow-up or contact is just simply not good enough. My question is, is it just a tokenistic bit of legislation then? Does it make the general public feel good? Well, that's wonderful, but what are we actually doing for the men and women who are living through that situation who need help? And we know that by the time the violence turns physical or it turns to a choking incident, that that victim survivor is 80% more likely to die at the hands of the perpetrator. So why are we waiting for it to get to that stage in order to do something? And that's not the experience of everybody, and I'm not suggesting that that's the experience of every police station, but I certainly can say with some confidence that there are certain matters that I've been involved with where the reaction of the police has been less than satisfactory.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

It takes bravery from the ground up.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Most definitely.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

And you know, not all police are squeaky clean themselves.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

We know that there is a a level of problem, and I use that terminology, around certain psychology within organizations, not only the police, around domestic violence and around how domestic violence might be triaged within an organization. And I think that that is true for many places, not just within the police.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

So when it comes to age demographics, with all the education that the younger generation are receiving about a coercive control and emotional abuse, have you noticed that there are less victim survivors coming through the family court that are younger rather than the older generation? Has it really made a difference? Because I I feel like people over 40, including myself, have really missed out on that education. And we're only really just discovering it now of what it looks like. And I'm hoping that you'll tell me that there's less and less younger people who are falling victim.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

I think you're right. I think that's certainly been my observation too. The younger generation of people who are coming through are very well aware of what the signs are. They are open to having conversations around it. They call out the behavior really quickly. Whereas, and I find myself in the same generation as you, Penny, so we are in the same age bracket. I can assure you that the people who come to see me who are not aware that they fall within that category are very much the people who are in that late 30s upwards. Because we grew up in a generation where domestic violence was the touching of another person, it was the pushing and the shoving, putting your hands on somebody else, and there was a narrative, particularly for women, that if you were in a generation where you weren't that happy in your marriage, there might have been some stonewalling, sure your partner wasn't around that often. Yeah, you weren't happy. Well that was just marriage. And you didn't complain about it, you didn't do anything about it, and it certainly wasn't violence. So, you know, that's just what you were expected to live through. Whereas now, I'm seeing younger people who are very well aware of what they want in a relationship and what they will and will not tolerate. And I am not seeing that as often as I do in the older generation as a result.

Options That Reduce Court Time

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Is there a message that you would like to leave victim survivors with who are feeling overwhelmed by the legal system right now?

SPEAKER_01 30:52

Yeah. It is not as scary as you think. That's the first thing I'll say. It's the unknown that is really scary, and trying to think that you have to navigate it on your own is also really scary. Simply because you find yourself in the court system, this is something I tell my clients all the time, does not mean that you will end up in the court system. Sometimes what we can do is we can use the court system as a bit of a escalation. So we get to the point where we bring a matter to the court, we get that early decision at an interim hearing, and then two months later your matter might resolve. We're out, we're in a mediation, we're okay in terms of being able to get you out of the process. And that doesn't mean that you've spent years in there. It's being smart about the way that we try and get outcomes for you and being realistic about your goals and what you want to achieve, and knowing when there are certain things that we may not get outcomes from with that quarter, knowing that that might be a different forum that you look at looking at doing something with later on. It's also the case that early intervention is key. We spoke about that earlier. Getting in and having a conversation with somebody does not make you obliged to do anything with that information, but what it does is give you options. And I think there is a lot of pressure on victim survivors to think that they have to do something today. I have seen victim survivors over the course of relationships where they, for example, might have seen me on a consultation basis over the course of eight years until they're ready to leave. I'm talking there's been a flare-up at home, there's been an incident, something's happened, they get the advice, they go away, we put a plan in place, it's there if we need it. If not, they go about and do what they need to do. Nobody really just wakes up overnight and goes, Oh, you know what, today's the day. Without there being some assistance along the way.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

The eight years, that's very relatable to a lot of women.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Especially if there's children involved.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

Absolutely. It's always the children that are involved, that the people that are in that situation.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

Yeah. Can like New South Wales lawyers practice interstate?

SPEAKER_01 33:17

Yeah. So the only state that we really don't play around in is WA. And the reason for that is they have their own family law legislation in WA. And yeah, of course we could do it if we wanted to, but I don't want to be representing somebody in a jurisdiction that I'm not familiar, intimately familiar, with the way that that legislation operates. So you'd want somebody who's there. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, I have clients who are in Melbourne who are in Queensland before COVID. We used to have to fly up to do these mentions and do things. Nowadays, post-COVID, really, we're doing a lot of court stuff online. So it means that I appeared yesterday in Brisbane on Teams. It is so much more convenient for clients because they're not having the cost of us travelling. And also, it may mean that I never actually have to step foot into court with you if it's the case that we can get in and get out and get resolutions early, and you've never actually stepped foot into court. You've been at home appearing and we've been on the phone, or alternatively, you've been in my office. And for some people, you know, they ask, oh, how was the court process? And they say, Well, I don't know, because I've only ever been in my lawyer's office, and we've done it like we've had a conversation online. I've never actually had to see the perpetrator because their face is not the one on the screen, it's their lawyers and the judges, and I've never had to come into contact with them in the court space.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

Yeah, wow. It is making it so much easier. Yeah, so much easier. And also for victim survivors.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

So for example, on a hearing, there are safety plans that can be put in place for victim survivors, which mean they don't have to go into the courtroom if they're permitted to do so. They're joining the court space where they're giving evidence like this from the courtroom in a different location. So I think we've come a long way in relation to that, can I just say? Than where how we were practicing ten years ago.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

One thing that I don't think's really recognised is I see sometimes that women are put at a disadvantage because they're usually the ones looking after the children throughout the court process and you're not allowed to discuss court matters in front of the

Mothers In Court And Childcare Gaps

SPEAKER_00 35:31

children. Do you think that women are still at a disadvantage over this? And would it be an idea for legal um practitioners and the court system to start having childminding services to help cater for women who can't afford childcare or have really young children and don't have any alternatives?

SPEAKER_01 35:51

Not only do I think that is crucial, but I will give you a little bit of insight into the level of, you know, you might call it dedication or you might call it madness that I experience as a family lawyer. But I had a case many, many years ago. And it was one that I had only been in. It's not something that I was comfortable just handing off to somebody else. And I happened to have just had my second child. She was seven weeks old at the time. And I remember going to court with a pram with her in the bassinet. I had engaged an agent to appear, but I wanted to be in the court process in case they needed to ask a question or they weren't really on top of anything, even though I know that they were probably going to be amazing, but I just wanted to make sure that they knew everything. And I got to the door of the court, and the court officer came out to me and said, You can't bring a baby into the courtroom. And I said, But she's asleep. No, you can leave her outside. And I said, sorry, I'm not leaving my seven-week old and a pram outside the courtroom. Like that's not happening. But also, this is my case. I want to make sure that it's run the best way as possible. I want to make sure I can give the evidence that is needed to this agent who's there. So what do I have to choose between being outside with my daughter or being in court to be able to assist you? Let alone being a litigant in the court process, who doesn't have the support network available to keep the children away and satisfy the court about them not being around or an earshot. Do we need to implement those strategies? 100%. 100%. If you expect us to show up in the best way as possible, give us the option of doing these things. And I'm I'm all for that. And I struggle, I really do, as a mother myself, to see what people have to go through in order to try and show up in that space where the realities of what's available to them is just they they're doing their best. Sometimes that's not enough for the court.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

So we still are yet to see the days where you can breastfeed your baby in court.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Well, I also have lived experience of having to utilize the toilets in the court complex. I remember there was nowhere for me to actually feed, and I was going to court when I had very young children, because that's just what I had to do. Had to earn an income to feed them, but also wanted to make sure that my clients were looked after. I have breastfed in storage cabinets, I have breastfed in bathrooms, I have breastfed in people's offices out of the kindness of their hearts. There have been legal aid officers who I've said, look, you know, I need to express or I need to feed, and they've said, I will jump out of my office, go for it, you do it. But that's not a conversation that we as women should have to have, frankly. You are a family court. It implies that there is going to be a family situation. And in some cases, and I know the Parramatta Registry does this beautifully, if you speak to security there, they are wonderful. They have rooms where they have opened for me to be able to feed, to express. They will go out of their way, and the Sydney Registries really like that as well. But it's the having to have the conversation where there should just be information available. If you come to this court, this is what you can expect. This is what we can do for you.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

These are the facilities available to you. That's right. And also considering that it's against the law to discriminate against breastfeeding women, yet in the court system it's almost impossible to breastfeed in public.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

There is court etiquette that applies to everyone, and I don't think that that etiquette matches the expectation of what motherhood might actually look like.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Thank you for sharing your expertise and your lived

Decompression And Vicarious Trauma

SPEAKER_02 39:43

experience. But what I want to leave on is how do you decompress? Because you must see so many different parts of life and I guess the human experience that it must just swirl around in your mind at night. So how do you take care of yourself?

SPEAKER_01 39:59

Good question. I was actually having a conversation with um girls in the office today about a matter that we've got at the moment that's kept me awake for two days. But we at the moment, and particularly in my office, what I'm trying to do is implement some really important what I'm gonna call decompression time with a therapist. We're actually doing some DV training in a couple of weeks where we're refreshing, but also for the ability to be able to implement a really nice policy around making sure that we don't experience vicarious trauma as a result of the work that we do. And that's something that I'm really alive to. So that's something that I'm actually bringing on at the moment, and I'm working with an amazing organization who is really, really strong on those policies. And it's something that I'm really worried about in terms of the legal profession itself. We don't have a system where it's mandatory, like psychologists or doctors, where something really traumatic happens where we're obliged to go and unpack with other people, with professionals in that space. In fact, it's almost like if you do family law and you work in the domestic violence space, it's like one trauma to the next, to the next, to the next, to the next, to the next, and you're just expected to deal with it. And there's this tokenistic approach to, oh, look after yourself, but okay, that's great. What does that actually look like? And how do we implement that? So it's something that I'm quite invested in at the moment, something that I'm hoping I will also bring to the profession as a whole in making sure that wellness is important because we have the highest rate of people who leave the profession, and we have more and more graduates who are actually electing not to join us in the profession because of the level of burnout and trauma that we experience.

Where To Find Cassandra

SPEAKER_02 41:37

For our listeners, if they want to find out more about you, your practice, and your social science research, where can they find you?

SPEAKER_01 41:47

Our website, which is capaccesslegal.com.au. You can follow me on socials. I do a lot of work and domestic violence education on TikTok. And you can just send me an email.

SPEAKER_02 41:56

Thanks so much for your time, Cassandra. Thank you for having me. You've been listening to Lady News with Elise and Penny. Join us on Instagram or at ladynews.com.au