Cindy Van Arnam - S1E4

In this episode of Off the Script & Over the Bar, I sit down with Cindy Van Arnam to talk about addiction recovery, rebuilding your life, filmmaking, self-awareness, and what it truly means to become a free thinker in a world that constantly tries to think for you.

We dive into personal struggle, creativity, healing, perspective, and the uncomfortable, but necessary, process of confronting yourself in order to grow.

It’s honest, reflective, occasionally chaotic thanks to some technical difficulties, and exactly the kind of conversation this podcast was built for. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Today's episode starts with addiction recovery, filmmaking, and rebuilding your life from the ground up. And somehow ends with me questioning my half the things I thought I knew about myself. Our guest today is Cindy Van Arnhem, a speaker, entrepreneur, and someone deeply focused on helping people break out of mental autopilot and actually thinking for themselves. Which sounds empowering until you realize how terrifying self-awareness actually is. You get into struggle, creativity, healing, perspective, and the weird reality that sometimes your lowest moments end up becoming the foundations for your best ones. Also, quick apology in advance. Apparently my microphone decided halfway through the interview that it was going through its own personal journey of self-discovery and kept kind of in and out. So if my audio randomly sounds like I'm broadcasting from the International Space Station for a few moments, just know we fought bravely through the technical difficulties and partially survived. So grab a drink, pretend you have your life together for the next hour, and welcome back to Off the Script and Over the Bar. Hope you enjoy. I guess we're recording? No. Okay, perfect. Oops.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

It's all good. You can edit this out, right? Yeah, that's fine. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

I was pretty good naturally, but then yeah, it didn't work.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

So Oh well. His family was very, very Dutch, so I actually learned more about my Dutch heritage from being with him than ever in my family. My family's more English and Irish than anything else.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Did you ever like celebrate any like Dutch heritage on learning more about your family history?

SPEAKER_01 2:00

The food.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Food.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Yeah, there's this one thing that my family, my boyfriend's ex-family, they're still family. I still talk to them all the time. Um they make this thing, it's called bitterbollen.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

It's like, oh my god, so good. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

I was always a fan of the uh what are they called? Stroop waffles or something like that. Like the little, they look like little waffle cookies that you put thin. You can usually go a cup of coffee and yeah, they're not very addicting. Um yeah, I figured we'd just go right into it. Um because yeah, like I wanted to talk about who you are, and then kind of do the structure from there. So yeah, we'll talk about you, and then we could probably go into like some backstory and then go into the film, talk about the film, and kind of expand from there. But uh yeah, how would you like to introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Oh man. Um, okay. Um mindset and behavioral coach for entrepreneurs.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

What uh what led you to want to follow that path?

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Oh boy. Well, that's a long story.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

We got time.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

Um mostly because of my own behavior and my own mindset, which for years was crap. Um I was I was an ex-cocaine addict after my dad passed away when he was when I was 16, not when he was 16. And you know, from that point on, I just kind of went into a spiral of really bad decisions, bad behavior, really crappy mindset, and just really thinking like there's no point to this, there's no point in doing better or anything. And from from that time on, I couldn't hold a job for more than a year at a time. I would literally just skip from one thing to the next to the next. I would always wonder, there's gotta be more to life than this, but always had that Debbie Downer in my head that no, you're not worth it, there's nothing that you can do. Um, I've been in multiple abusive relationships and through cocaine abuse, but also like physical, mental, emotional abuse. And so when you are in that state all the time and you're surrounded by people like that, what happens is your brain starts saying what they're saying. So typical narcissists, you become your own narcissist and you just start, I'm not worth it. What's the point? I don't even know what I'm doing, I don't know what I'm doing. There's no point, I'm not, I'm not good enough for that, right? And that voice just keeps going on and on in your head. And of course, you know, years afterwards, I came out of the addiction, I've been clean from addiction for 25 years. I don't even know now. It feels like that addictive behavior and that pattern in your brain stays there because our brains develop neuron pathways. And so what needs to happen is you need to redirect the neuron pathway in your brain. And so I had to work with new belief systems. I had to catch myself the minute that it would come in in different areas of my life. You're not good enough. As a bartender, I would say that to myself. You're not good enough to be a bartender at a fancy restaurant, you need to be working at a dive bar, you're not good enough to date men who treat you well, and so I needed to shift that belief pattern so that I could start creating a different reality for myself. And as entrepreneurs, especially in the online space, um, I'm not good enough to price my offers like that. I I don't know that I can sell, I don't know that my offer is good enough, right? That mindset just continues to flow through everything. And so, for what I do is number one, I teach people that bad behavior as an entrepreneur is sometimes a good thing and can work to your advantage, but also recognizing when that mind starts talking like that and asking ego to go sit in the corner for a minute because you've got things to do.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

Absolutely, yeah. I guess yeah, the um imposter syndrome can be quite strong, too, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Yeah, yeah, imposter syndrome. There's so many things that show up, especially as an entrepreneur, because uh most solopreneurs are, you know, you're wearing multiple hats. I somehow became a graphic designer when I am not a graphic designer in any way, but there's this software called Canva that allows anybody and everybody to become a graphic designer. But I would compare my graphics to everybody else. Their graphics are so much better than mine, right? So comparison, judgment comes in. Well, I uh you just go on the internet on Instagram and you can judge or compare yourself to just about anybody in any given moment, right? Yeah, and so recognizing those patterns and and then learning to work with them and learning to interrupt them is what most of the work that I do.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

Oh, okay, I got you. Yeah. Um because yeah, like I know we were talking a little bit before, um yeah, when you're mentioning mentioning like struggles with like cocaine addiction, and I know just like like leading into more about you, like you created this film, Yellow Bird, and it kind of it like kind of it follows your story. Um so like I guess like looking at your life and with your approach to this short film, like what main key things were you wanting an audience to take away from it, and like how did you want your experience to kind of like fuel either an inspiration to change from the viewer's perspective, or even like it's like a small message to walk away with um just because like one of the things I noticed when watching the film is that your mother had like a pretty huge portrayal in your life, um, which I know you played your mom in that short film. Um so yeah, I just wanted to ask more about her in the sense of like with her being a big key to your life, was there something or like a piece of advice that she gave to you that you kind of live by and maybe try to pass on to others?

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Absolutely. So the one line that the was the catalyst for the entire film being created in the first place was my mom used to say to me all the time during my addiction, I love you, but I don't love your actions. And isn't that the epitome of clocking your behaviors and going, hang on a second, is this adding up to what I'm actually trying to create? Right, because you know, I think all of us as human beings struggle to love ourselves in the biggest way, yeah. And you know, we're always comparing and judging, we're always less than or better than, we're always in imposter syndrome, we're always in this place of I'm not good enough, I'm not worthy, right? This mindset keeps going in, and the ego is literally just trying to keep you alive.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

That's all it's doing, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:17

The ego's like, no, not safe, right? Yeah, but but if we can start speaking to ourselves from that place of love, everything shifts. So it was that line that my mom said to me over and over and over again throughout that three years of hardcore addiction, that one day I finally heard it because I didn't believe anybody loved me. And then all of a sudden I was like, wait, what? Somebody loves me. And it snapped me out of that behavior, which allowed me to then make different choices. And I think for any human, not just entrepreneurs, the minute we can start separating our ego, our choices, our behavior from who we actually are at the core, we can start to love ourselves and we can start to face the shame, the guilt, the pain, the frustration, the anger, everything that literally I had to walk through the fire to get through that addiction. You start facing it, but you can face it from a place of self-love. I'm doing this because I love myself, not because I should, because I have to, because somebody else is telling me to, because no, no, no, that rule doesn't work for me. And it you literally love yourself out of it. So I think that line was the biggest catalyst for me in my life. And I I mean, I don't use that line a lot in my own work, in my own love, but I think my own life, but I think it kind of flows through everything that I do is if you can love yourself enough to face your shadows, enough to face the ego that's trying to keep you alive instead of avoid it, yeah, because how many of us like to Netflix it, numb it, dumb it, drug it, shove it under the carpet putting my hand up, yeah. But when we love ourselves enough to look at it and to look at our behavior and say, okay, well, it is what it is. I made this mistake. I love and accept myself anyway. Yeah, now I can change my behavior instead of beating the crap out of ourselves because we do that a lot.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Absolutely. Right?

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Oh, and how many times do we think about a conversation we had yesterday and we just repeat it in our head over and over and over again because we're trying to avoid the pain of it. Instead, I love and accept myself anyway. I wish I hadn't said it that way. Maybe I owe that person an apology, and what if I change my behavior next time?

SPEAKER_00 11:49

Yeah. I like that. Like, I I look at every experience as like a learning curve, and I think people often forget that they can learn something from pain instead of like just allowing themselves to feel it. You know, like I talk on this podcast about like overcoming obstacles, and like I think you're the perfect example of this too, right? Like you're you know, you're almost you're sharing a positive outlook on life despite coming from the depths of it, you know. Like it's I think at the end of the day, sometimes people are addicted to the pain in the sense of like that's just all they know. Yeah, and uh it's yeah, like they don't want to change it because like they don't know it's almost like the fear of the unknown. Like, how do I feel happy when all I felt was like sad or miserable? Um that's I think you hit the nail on the head. Like, just I just want more people to understand that like pain isn't meant to keep you down, it's like you can use that as like a stepping stone.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

You can use it, you know, just towards one of the things that I always share with everybody is as a human being, we are designed to feel the full spectrum of emotion, we're meant to feel anger, sadness, depression, frustration. We're also meant to feel happiness, bliss, ecstasy, pleasure, all of these things. Yeah, but we as humans usually only want to feel the good, right? Yeah, but when we're so used to feeling the bad, it becomes this zone of familiarity because we can't call it a comfort zone, it's not comfortable, right? Yeah, but it's familiar, and then all of a sudden, especially I've noticed this because I've had bouts of depression and things. Um, just ask me about February of any given year.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

I get into a slump, but and it's really hard to get yourself back out of it because you're comfortable here. I've been watching Netflix all winter, I've been buried under blankets because I hibernate, there's no sun, and I don't exercise, right? And now I've got to start new habits. I've got to exercise, I gotta get out in the sun, I gotta start moving, I've gotta start being more alive, right? And the ego goes, nope, it's not safe out there, you might die, right? That's literally what the ego does. And so we stay where it's familiar. But if we can just say, you know what? It is familiar, it's really uncomfortable. I am feeling depressed. The minute we do that, it loses its power. And we can then go, okay, well, what am I gonna do about it? Am I gonna just stay here? Nine times out of ten, you're gonna go, uh no, I'm going for a walk, right? Because you just gave yourself permission to feel depressed or frustrated or whatever, and now you can shift yourself out of it. But when we avoid it, pretend it doesn't exist, then it's just always there. It's like just constantly tapping you on the shoulder. Yeah. I only know this because I live this life myself, right? I'm a human being too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

No, and like I get you sharing all this stuff too. Like it's it takes a lot to talk about it, but it also like takes more to share experiences that like proof and like hearing it yourself, you're like, Oh my gosh, I overcame this thing, and I'm sharing this information with somebody else, you know? Um, because I often get like that. Like, I'll be sharing advice to people, um, and all of a sudden I'll live the same experience. I'm like, why do I feel so shitty? And then like it's like, hey, idiot, you said this words to your friend, maybe you should listen to your own mouth, you know.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Um right, but yeah, no, it's just we don't experience it in a vacuum. And I always say to my clients, you know, you can't see your own patterns. It's very rare that you can clock your own patterns. You might notice it over time, but you're not gonna notice it in the moment when it happens, because we're human and that we're meant to learn and experience life through the lens of other people's eyes. So when your friend is coming at you and saying, We should go for a walk, and you're like, No, thanks. Yeah, just gonna sit here and game for another hour and vegetate, right? Then what happens is if if that friend just sits down and starts gaming with you, fine. But also when that friend says, No, come on, let's go, you will either go or more likely you'll get triggered first. Yeah, and you'll get angry or frustrated. I don't want to go for a walk, right? But what's happening, and a lot of people we think that that trigger, that emotional, like, I don't want to, is punishment or it's a reason not to do the thing, right? Yeah, but what's actually happening, and this is what I say to my clients all the time your triggers, your emotional triggers of sadness, anger, frustration, depression are signposts for what you want. And if you actually look at the sign, you'll be able to go to the other side and get what you want. But most of us see the sign and we turn around and run the other way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

Interesting. Yeah, because uh Yeah, speaking of imposter syndrome, like especially with like pursuing like an art form, it's like we often forget that like art is more impactful when it's like more from you, you know, like because you can look around and be like, oh, why isn't my I don't know, film like this, like when the this director is like that way, and then or my book or whatever, or my painting. And then you often forget that this person is a lot more experienced, they've done a lot more things, so it's like you're constantly gonna be chasing that when you like just you gotta almost accept you're like I'm only as far as I'm I as I am right now, like who knows in like five years where I'll be.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

I think exactly. Yeah, just I mean, when you first learned how to ride a bicycle, I'm pretty sure you fell down a few times. Yeah, right? Still got scars, yeah. So many times. And what does the baby do? Maybe cries for a minute, but probably giggles and gets back up and does it again. It's not like the baby sits there and goes, I'm never walking again. This is stupid. This is but when we get into adulthood, we start going, people are gonna judge me. People are gonna think that I'm dumb, people are gonna not like this, I'm gonna be judged, ridiculed, whatever. And we have this fear that shows up. I'm gonna get kicked out of the tribe. And back in caveman days, you get kicked out of the tribe, you're out of the cave, and you're gonna die. Yeah, right. That's literally what it is. So we just have to remind ourselves that the only way to grow is to get back up again.

SPEAKER_00 19:09

Yeah, exactly. Even sometimes you might need to get kicked out of the tribe, right? Like that's kind of the thing, too, right? Like, I'm just using my experience.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

There's a way better cage.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Exactly. Exactly. It's okay to relocate, yeah. But like that's what I've experienced. Like just moving to Vancouver and like I hardly know anybody here, and it's just kind of like freed me of oh, what's this person gonna think? Like, I I don't really care. I'm a stranger to them, like they don't know who I am, I don't know who they are, so it like kind of makes it a little easier to make a fool of myself when I'm only the really one or I'm really the only one watching. Um yeah, I don't know. I think Yeah, that's a perfect analogy. Just like yeah, don't be afraid to get kicked out of the tribe because like there's always gonna be a better tribe who is just gonna accept who you are. And I think once you accept who you are is when people will start like bringing you in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Exactly. Yeah, I think that's that's the key right there, is because if you don't accept and love yourself, what's gonna happen is you're gonna find a new tribe and you're gonna try really hard to fit into that tribe too, and you're gonna shape shift and you're gonna be somebody you're not, and you're gonna try to impress, and you're gonna do all the same behaviors. Yeah, ask me how I know, and then you're gonna go into the next tribe and you're gonna do the same thing, right? This is what happened to me when I decided to get clean. I literally skipped the country and moved to a new country that had the death penalty if you do drugs. Wow. Because I knew rehab wasn't going to work for me. Yeah, but also deep down, I was running away from my problems. If I just moved to another country, nobody will know. But guess what happened? I turned into an alcoholic, right? It was just one substance for another, it was one addiction for the for the next. And then I was like, okay, well, let's go to a different country. So I moved from Jakarta to Dubai. Same laws, same rules, very strict drug policies, no alcohol in Dubai. Guess what happened? I got addicted to something else, right? It was just one thing after the next after the next. And it wasn't until I was like, oh shit. It starts with me. Yeah, that's when everything started to shift. Because then I stopped trying to shape shift to fit into the tribe, and I walked into the tribe that actually cared about me, that actually saw me for who I am because I was able to see myself for who I am.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

I like that. Wow. That's yeah, sorry, you kind of that's yeah, that's really you kind of took the words right out of my mouth.'Cause yeah, I guess like it also like stems from like it's it's proof you can run away, but like you think you're running away from your problems, but yeah, like your problems are always gonna follow you, right? Like like you just said. Yeah. Um but I guess that kind of falls in line with like people pleasing anyway, like especially trying to like you know, mix yourself in with tribes who think you're somebody that you're not, and then along the lines you're like almost too invested that you're like, Well, I can't do stuff now because if I do, then I'm out of the group, I'm out of the tribe.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Yeah. Um Yeah, and you lose who you are. You really do. I mean, one of the new addictions that I discovered when I got home was the spiritual world, and I dove head in head first. Um, I'm a numerologist, I understand universal law. I started studying this to the point of obsession, and I was in a community where we were all meditating and love and light, and that's great. Except I completely changed who I am. So I am nine times out of ten, you will find me either barefoot in stilettos or in stilettos, you will find me in a red leather jacket. Everything is red in my house. I do not wear palazzo pants and I don't smell like patchouli.

SPEAKER_02 23:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

I have a house full of rocks that I just think are pretty, a lot of crystals, but I don't know what they're for, right? And so from the outside looking in, you wouldn't consider me to be very deeply spiritual, but I am. But what happened when I walked into that community and became obsessed in that community? I literally walked into a cult. Oh, and I was same same addictions, right? I was addicted to the healing, I was addicted to fixing myself, I was addicted to fitting in. Yeah, and so I became somebody that I'm not, and I started wearing palazzo pants smelling like patjouli. I'm kidding. But I definitely dimmed my own light. You know, I would never dare show up to any of those community events in stilettos and red leather. Like, no.

SPEAKER_02 24:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

But isn't that who I am? Because that's my full expression. And it took seven years to get out of that cult for me to recognize and realize number one, you're human, you're already spiritual, you don't need to prove it by the clothes you wear and the things you do. And second, you get to be whoever you want to be in the room. And if you're trying to fit in by being, behaving, saying different things than you would normally say, you're not in the right room.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

No. It's almost like the more you try to prove who you are to other people, the more they kind of push you away. It's like a weird balance.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Because they can smell it from a mile away.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Oh, easily.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

And they're either gonna push you away or they're going to manipulate you to do what they want you to do. It's gonna be one of the two.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Because they know they can smell it, so they're either like, get out of my cave, or ooh, I can use this person.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

This guy will go get resources, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's like so kind of back a little bit there. What was your first kind of like so you said you were in this cult for like seven years?

SPEAKER_02 25:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

What uh if you don't mind me asking, what was the deciding factor? Like what kind of like made you realize you're like, oh, I need to get the fuck out of here.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Yeah, it's funny that you bring that up because it's definitely related to the film. So perfect. Um, we were at a live event together, and I knew something was off. Like, if I had really sat with myself, I would have been like, yeah, something's not quite right here, but I hadn't been honest with myself yet. And I'd watched other people get shoved out of the tribe, and then I always thought, oh, that'll never happen to me because I'm good, I'm a good girl, I fit in, right? And I have completely let go of the good girl. No, quite the we're at this live event together, and we're all in this meditation together, and there's a photo of me in that moment where I literally saw the truth of who I am. And it's it wasn't how I behaved, it wasn't how I was dressed, it wasn't the things that I do, the work, it wasn't anything. It was literally just my soul, and it came out in this very guttural, weird sound, and my eye broke down bawling, and I was just like, oh, I'm getting goosebumps to Stephen talking about it. It was just this moment of like absolute truth. Yeah, and I remember thinking in that moment, I'm in the wrong room.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

I don't belong here now. Just because I had that moment didn't mean my behavior changed. So I stayed in that room, well, not physically in that room, but in that community and that tribe for another six months, unweaving the spider web that had been built around me.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

But part of that journey was I was headed to Las Vegas to go and share my story on stage at a live event. Uh, about a month after this experience happened, and I walked into the stage in Vegas. There are women in the room making like a million dollars a day. There were women in that room who were late, like royalty lords, ladies. There was like it was I was in that room going, Oh, I'm so slow.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

What do I do?

SPEAKER_01 27:30

Right, yeah, and they almost forgot to let me speak and share my story, but I was like, No, I get my 20 minutes, I'm gonna speak. So I stood up for myself. And I think I blacked out. I don't know what happened, I don't remember anything that I said. I literally just closed my eyes and I just started channeling through my story. And as a direct result of that moment, I was gifted the studio production time, the film crew, everything to create this film. That's it was wild, it was wild, and then it took like a year and a half after two years to produce and like film and produce the film, but yeah, that was kind of the beginning of it, and it was literally a moment of this is who I am, yeah. And then trusting that and being able to express that.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

It was almost like you were like gifted by a higher power for realizing the change, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

Yeah, and yes and no, I'm gonna suggest I might push some buttons with the stuff.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Oh, that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

I'm I'm not a big believer in the higher power. I believe that as human beings, we all have the power within us. Yeah, but we tend to look outside of ourselves. We look to other, we look to elders, we look to our ancestors, we look to other people. We're always looking for the answers outside of ourselves. And I think that there's a lot in the spiritual world, especially where we look to a god that's outside of us, or guides or something that's outside of us. We look to our tarot cards and our oracle cards and our crystals because they have the answers. The answers are inside of you. So you say higher power, I say inner power. Same concept.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Yeah, yeah. I didn't sorry, I didn't mean it like a like a god figure. No, it's not religious, but uh just yeah, like just like a spiritual sign that you're on the right path kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Because yeah, it's like I don't want to steal the the the spotlight here, but just like speaking from personal experiences is like once you fill like you were saying, your energy is within, and it's like once you are able to turn that spotlight in on yourself instead of trying to find out other people in the crowd, then it's like that's when you're like, oh okay, this is all worth it. Like um one of the biggest things like I always look back on upon moving here, and I've shared on the podcast I think once or twice, but uh I think it was like about a month or two when I moved here, I saw Colin Mockery was coming to town, and like I grew up watching Whose Line Is It Anyway.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

I love him.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

Yeah, he's like one of my favorite comedians, plus he's Canadian, so that's always a added bonus. But uh So yeah, I I bought tickets for the show, and then I like yeah, I went by myself as like a little treat. We were like, You did you made the move, you deserve this kind of thing, you know? Um and I go to sit down with and I went beside this lady and we kind of like were chatting back and forth the whole time. And one of the segments they brought up someone from the crowd and they were doing like um oh gosh, what was it? Like human props or something. Like basically like the the person from the crowd would control like Colin and his friends as human props, it was hilarious. Um she goes back to her screen after the skit is done, and I say to the lady next to me, like when they had like a little break, I'm like, Oh, if they do this, like if they call another guest, I really want to go up there, and she's like, Oh, you better be ready because like I'll make sure you're up there. And just like I was kind of like in like just awe of watching him, because I like one of my favorite sketches was sound effects, where like yeah, they would bring in um yeah, a guest, and they would just do sound effects for the the improv actors, and one of my favorite ones was Ryan Styles would do it for Colin, and he'd purposely like do weird sounds to make it more funny. Um and then lo and behold, they're like, Oh, we need a a volunteer from the crowd, and then the lady beside me just like stood up, like she was like, Him, like choose him, and then everyone just kind of turned their head, I'm like, I guess my hand's going up, right? And yeah, so I get called up on the stage, and as I'm walking up, someone's like, Oh, what's your name? What's your name? I'm like, Oh, Nick, and then I don't know how Colin heard me, but I walk up on stage and Colin's the first one there, he's like, Hey Nick, how's it going? I'm just like, Oh, Colin, hi. And they basically bring me the mic, and they're like, So the sketch we're gonna do is sound effects. And I just went, no fucking way, like just like doing my favorite sketch with like my favorite comedian. But to make that long story short, it's just like that was like the sign. Like I remember driving home with like just like, oh my god, you know, like I think I made the right decision. And yeah, you know, it I mean it comes with hardships, everything does, and I think going back to what we were talking about earlier, is like we can ride the high of the positives, but we also have to accept the lows of the negatives, and it's just like how to how do we learn how to balance that too, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:33

Um I love that story so much. That's so good. They woke confirmation, it's perfect. Exactly. Colin's my higher power.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

No, I'm just joking.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

The universe works in mysterious ways, we'll put it that way. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

That's hilarious. But uh, I guess just see here. Um yeah, that's what I wanted to ask you. For your film Yellowbird, why why the title? What does Yellowbird have?

SPEAKER_01 33:09

So it's funny, you know, talking about some people have more skills than we do. So I had no film experience whatsoever. Okay. This was like uh you want me to do what now kind of thing. Yeah. When they asked me to play my mom in the movie, I was like, no acting experience. Like, I no, but I do things that scare the crap out of me all the time. But the director and the screenwriter, she came to me and she she handed me a script and she said, I just want you to look at this. And she has her insecurities, of course, as well, just like every human. And she sent it to me and I read it through the first time, and I remember just bawling. I was like, Oh my god, like this is happening. This is a screen, like a screenwritten piece about my life, right? And then and then I started questioning it, and I went back to her and I was like, So the movie, the film talks about me going to rehab, but I didn't ever go to rehab. And she says, Well, creative license, we need to take to to create a storyline that people will understand, and yours is not really understandable. I'm for sure the only person who's ever done that, and I was like, Okay, fine. And then she's like, and and I said, What's up with the name? And she's so she's explains it to me. So yellow bird is this idea of freedom. If you think about the yellow, the color yellow, it is sunshine, it's bright, it's happiness, right? And a bird is free, so it was that freedom and that happiness at the end. And if you look really, really closely, you might have to watch the film a few times.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

That's okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

There is a yellow bird at the end of the film.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

Oh, really? Okay, I have to go back and watch that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

It's hilarious. Yeah. So yeah, there was a lot of things that I didn't I probably could have pushed back on with things, but I chose not to because I was not the expert, and I just said, I trust you. I trust you go there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

I guess moving on more with that, like what what things would you have wanted differently? I know like the film's already finished, but uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

I mean, I think I like the idea of my I like I like my story of not going through formal treatment. I think that's a lot to do with me and how I live my life. You told me to go this way, I'm gonna go that way. Yeah, um, I think that's probably the only piece. Maybe it could have been a little longer, but it is 11 minutes of absolute art, so I can't really complain. Yeah, I'm just so grateful because I mean, seven, seven International Film Festival Awards. Congratulations. And we just submitted now to the Okanagan Film Festival, which is a first-time festival. Oh, awesome. Um, I'll let you know in October if we're a winner again. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

That'd be awesome, yeah. Fingers across for you.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

But yeah, also like jumping back to like with like the importance of colors, like what made red stick out to you so much?

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Ah, so I had a cousin years ago who said something about how red reminds me of courage. And it always stuck with me. But and red has always been kind of a favorite color, but I was in a I do this um visualization technique a lot with my clients, and it's literally visualizing your perfect day. And I was doing this for seven days straight. It's just a 10-minute meditation, and I was going through this, and I'm not big on seeing things, I'm not a visualizer by the traditional means. Um, but everything I did, it was red, it was always red, and I was like, what is up with this? Okay, and you know, a lot of people think red is you know, blood, it's fear, and it can be very triggering for some people, but for me, it is power, it's strength, it's resiliency, it's courage. Yeah, and I also work with the seven chakras and the root chakra, which is at the base where we feel the most grounded, the color that represents that is either black or red. And so it's just always been something. So everything in my house, my fiancé. I'm like, we are highlighting everything in the house red. He's like, Okay, I like yellow, but we're growing with red. So we have highlight red everywhere. My kitchen is all red utensils and red kettles and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

It works, it works, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

Because I guess, yeah, with power, like just going into like pop cultures things, like you can look at like how mainly all like the popular like superheroes like Spider-Man comes to mind, how he's mainly red. Like you were to associate that with yeah, courage, power, and also like not to quote it, but like also like kind of like acknowledging responsibility in the sense of like you know, you you can be empowered by anything. And like I think that's a good driving force, is like and a good motivator is like that's what makes us different, you know. Like we can find something like for me, I have I'll show you a picture here, but I know the audience won't be able to see it. But it's my brother got me a piece of film from episode three of Star Wars. Yeah. Um Revenge of the Death. It's like every time I'm like writing on my desk or like I feel discouraged or hit writer's block, I just like I have it right to my my left side here. I'll just like kind of look at it and be like, okay, that's where I want to be. I don't want to like obviously, you know, George Lucas, you know, higher power there, too. Uh my lord, my lord.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

Um yeah, but it becomes your inspiration and like your muse, right? And yeah, and one of my biggest things is the environment will change your thinking, your thinking, thinking. It'll change everything. Um, prime example. I recently got it into my head that, and a lot of entrepreneurs talk about this, you know, we're so busy doing things all the time that you need time for spaciousness in the brain. And I'm like, okay, cool. So I'm gonna go for my walk without headphones. Because what do we do? We usually listen to podcasts or we listen to music, right? Yeah, so I'm like, I'm just gonna walk 20 minutes, no headphones. It was the worst experience of my life.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

Just like, oh gosh, you're gonna travel.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

But it was terrible. I got back home and I'm like, now I'm just more tired. My brain did not turn off, it went a million miles a minute. So the next day, I'm like, you know what? Headphones in, change the environment, right? I put my music in, I was like busting a move. I was dancing in the Walmart parking lot on the way home, and I was like, dance. I'm like, yeah, this is good, right? And I got home and I created a bunch of content, got a bunch of stuff done. I was way more productive because of my environment. Yeah, so I teach this all the time: like, writing spaces, if they're cluttered, your mind is cluttered. You're not gonna have any chance of getting anything down on paper that makes sense, right? Empty your space, now you've got this clean, tidy, less chaotic space. It creates that spaciousness so your brain can function properly. I think environment is so important. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

I love that you've got the clutter there.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

Yeah, just like even yeah, just letting your brain kind of reset itself, right? Because we're always constantly overwhelmed with everything. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

So I think and I mean, there are certain people who are less like that. Um, I can clock this with numerology readings and things like that, but I'm very much in my head all the time, and I know that about myself. So why I listen to somebody else again. See, sometimes we still do it.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

Catching yourself, which is good, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

But recognizing those patterns and those pieces of you, then you can start working with it instead of trying to fight against it because somebody one day told you you should be doing this, right? I need to have my brain turned off at some point, otherwise I'm up at three in the morning.

SPEAKER_02 41:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

Because it doesn't know how to turn off, it's like a muscle, right? So, yeah.

unknown 41:13

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

Because I also wanted to ask you just because it popped in my mind, um, with you understanding like mental health and like self-help, what's your opinion on self-help books? Like, do you find people can take away a lot? Do you think that kind of bullshit? Do you think maybe like yeah, what what do you think of those?

SPEAKER_01 41:33

Yeah. Um, I think that there is benefit to them, absolutely. But what I also see is addiction.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

Because what do most humans think when they go to get a self-help book? They're trying to fix a problem, right? I'm broken.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

And that's a problem. You're not broken, you are whole. Do you need some healing? Maybe. Is there a new habit you could implement that would help? Maybe. So that's why I think they can be good. But there becomes this addiction. I've seen it in myself. Addiction personality. I've seen it where I'm like, oh, I need the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And I'm like constantly trying to self-improve and make myself a better human. Instead of just recognizing that I'm pretty damn good as I am. Yeah. Right? Now, there's a time and a place, right? There's sometimes you want to learn a new skill or get better at communicating with your partner, or you want to just feel happier, then sure. Yes. But you know, take it from somebody who has read over a thousand self-help books. You don't need them all.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

No. That's true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

Yeah, there's a time and a place for them. And I think they can be helpful, especially if for somebody who's just getting started, to just like pick one or two that really call to you. Um, but also recognizing we're not fixing anything because you're not broken. There's nothing wrong with you. And I think that's where a lot of the self-help industry goes is you're broken, you need to be fixed. Here, here's my six-step framework on how to fix yourself. You're not fucking broken.

SPEAKER_00 43:17

No. And it's like almost highlighting the problem a little bit larger, so you're making it like a bigger deal in your head a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

Yes, well, that's marketing 101, isn't it? Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 43:29

Like, I remember I'm reading the book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. And Oh, I love that book. Yeah, like I I thoroughly enjoyed it. It's just my brain was like, okay, I understand the point of what they're trying to get here, and then like I just like for me, like it was it was good, but it didn't help my mental state at the time. Like, I was like, I understand what the message they're trying to per like um portray here. Um but yeah, sometimes like if I try to read the self help book, I'm like, oh Okay, this is the problem. Like, I'm already like aware of the problem. So it's like how this person healed from it or acknowledged this problem wouldn't really help me. And then like it's kind of like this whole thing. Then now I'm anxious because now you're feeling worse. Yeah, it's just downhill.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

This is another thing. Like I was talking before where we can't do self-improvement in a vacuum, right? We need other people to mirror back to us what's really going on. So that can happen too with self-help books. So you get into the book and you're like, okay, that's great, but how does this apply to me? Right. And without mentorship or a coach or somebody to help support you in that growth, it can be really tricky. So this is why, especially in my industry, I think books are like the gateway into mentorship. Because it's like a it's a glorified business card for most coaches and mentors, like here, read my book and then come hire me. Because you do need somebody to mirror back to you. So I don't necessarily say, you know, I'm a coach. Yes, I do coaching, but for me, I'm more of a mirror for people. So I know I well, I have a book, but it's not for sale. I have multiple collaborative book projects, but I'm not trying to sell that. It's just if somebody were to come to me through my website, which is very similar to a book, right? It's got advice on there, it's got freebies you can download that might may or may not help you, right? But the growth happens long term, and it happens when you've got somebody walking one step ahead of you saying, Hey, I've done this, I've been there, let me help you get faster results. Instead of it taking you 20 years, let's make it happen in a year, right? Because I've figured out the hard way how to do it. Now you don't have to do it the hard way. Yeah, you don't get that out of a book.

SPEAKER_02 45:51

No.

SPEAKER_01 45:52

That's and then yeah, sometimes you end up feeling worse about yourself because you're like, how did that person do it?

SPEAKER_00 45:58

Yeah. They did it, but I didn't know I'm angry. Yeah. That's like that's why I feel more connected to like film and television, because like you kind of get that visual representation of like a problem. Um like, for example, one of my favorite films, and I'm typically not like a romantic film kind of guy, but like Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind, Jim Carrey. And it's just like that's one of my favorite ones because it's just like you know, like it it it tackles dealing with heartbreak and how instead of trying to forget it, it's important that you like feel it, right? Kind of like looping back to what we were talking in the beginning. And yeah, like I feel kind of seeing that as I'm more of like a visual person, like if I can see something that that helps me like learn like faster. And I don't know, like just using that as an example really helps heartbreak with like friends or like ex partners or whatever, you know. Like it's like, oh okay, like you know, it's okay to feel these things. I don't want to stuff it down because if you do, I'm sure you're aware of this, it just overflows and you're like, okay, this is crazy. Um but yeah, it's just that's why like art is such a good outlet. And sometimes I feel like people can forget that they see like a drawing and they're like, Oh, I want to draw that, and then when they try the pen and paper, it's like they can barely draw a stick figure, but that's not the point. It's like you're s yeah, you're still doing the action. Like it's you're putting in the effort, and then like you're like, Oh, but this effort is bad, and like I suck at this, and that's like this loophole, but then people forget that you have to put in the effort to learn how to draw. Like, I I do a bunch of drawings, I'm far from perfect, but I'm still learning, and like sometimes I'll go back to basics, and as I understand that you know art changes all the time, and because you can express something now and it's like the bare bones of it, doesn't mean you can work on it and then build up that metaphorical skeleton into like a actual full-fleshed thing. And just yeah, yeah, it's all about yeah, just learning from hardships, and I think that's why like I'm really happy that you're uh wanted to be a part of this podcast because like mainly that that's the the message I've portrayed so far while trying to. Um there I'm beating myself up example. But there it is. There's the already, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

Yeah, it's just well here's what I'm gonna suggest is for me myself, you know, I'm heavily invested in mentorship. I've always invested in people that are one step ahead of me so that I can learn from them, right? I will never hire somebody who looks like they have it all together. Yeah, I will never hire somebody who's never had hardship because A, your life's not perfect, I guarantee it, and you're lying to me. And B, how fucking boring would it be to go through life as everything is rainbows and kittens, and nothing is ever wrong. It's the law of polarity. It without the dark, we cannot see the light. Without sadness, we can't experience happiness. And you'd literally be flatlined through life if you never experienced hardship because you wouldn't know what it looks like on the other side.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

Exactly, yeah. It's like I remember back in college, my biggest awakening to complaining to my parents back home, they're like, Well, you gotta make your dinner. I'm like, we don't want to, and then like learning through that is like I like no word of a lie, I had to teach my roommate how to boil water. Because his like, are you kidding me? Like the most like it's like first step of cooking right there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, try fire, right?

SPEAKER_01 50:00

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 50:01

I love it. But yeah, no, I just wanted to uh um kind of also dip back before we wrap this up here. Um yeah, like for me like a big part of this podcast is like film, as I'm sure you've already aware of this, like script writing, um, art, anything. Um I'm just gonna try to make it like a recurring question I ask guess on the future of the show is um I g I guess looking back on your life I always like to think of it as like a three-act structure, right? Like there's act one, act two, act three, act one is like the beginning of your story, and then act two is all the fun and games, and like the craziness in between.

SPEAKER_02 50:48

Shenanigans.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

And then the third act, yeah, shenanigans exactly. And I'd say the third act is like I don't know, where you see yourself, and then like it can be broken down all over again as you continue to grow. Um but I'd say has there been a film that you watched in say your act one, like in your beginning, that kind of stuck with you, and maybe that when you were struggling, you would maybe go back to watch this thing as like an outlet or like a safe space for like two hours. Um and have you re-watched that movie with who you are now as a person?

SPEAKER_01 51:28

You're never gonna guess what film it is. I'm borderline embarrassed to say this. Okay. It's finding Nemo, okay?

SPEAKER_00 51:39

That's not a very that's a great movie.

SPEAKER_01 51:42

Oh my god. So I'm very much in touch with my inner child, and so kids' movies, some of the kids' movies out there nowadays are some of the best I've ever seen. If you have not seen Inside Out, one and two, every human on the planet needs to see this. But for me, finding Nemo is like this epitome of comedy and struggle and strife and then happy ending, and it just I would go to it mostly because it would just cheer me up in moments where you know I wasn't feeling so hot. Yeah, but also I would use it to make myself cry in moments when I was avoiding my feelings, and uh, we don't want to feel that. I'd be like, all right, I'm gonna force myself to feel this now. So that is something that I do as well. So everybody's like, this is the most profound movie you've ever seen. I'm like, finding Nemo.

SPEAKER_00 52:37

Don't worry, I'm not a film snob, so I don't know. Like, I love finding Nemo, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:43

I've seen it 150 times. That's alright. Yeah, gotta make it 151.

SPEAKER_00 52:47

Yeah. There you go. That's why I mentioned Disney too, because like the one film I always try to push on people, and I know for some reason nowadays people get like, oh, animated? They don't like they think they associate animation with a kid's movie. Um but it's Disney, I'm sure you've seen it. Disney's Soul with uh Jamie Fox. Yeah, that like one of my favorite on top of like you know I think that story there is like such a perfect example of like just life in general and like yeah, just yeah learning to swim and then kind of going back to finding Nemo is just keep swimming, right? So yeah, it's all it's all it's all a metaphor for swimming.

SPEAKER_01 53:35

Um yeah, I love that about a lot of the animated films, kids kids are for adults too, right? Like Inside Out 2 with the anxiety coming in. I I was bawling in the theater when I was watching it because it's so relatable, and like what human hasn't experienced anxiety at some point in their life, but they made it funny so that you could relate to it, but it didn't seem so serious, and it actually gave you permission to go in and feel it and face it and be like, okay, I feel that way sometimes. Oh, I have anxiety, okay. Yeah, instead of oh no, no, I'm fine.

SPEAKER_00 54:15

Yeah. Yeah, I love it. I love that too. Yeah, that's awesome. Um yeah, I guess to wrap it up, after I already said we're gonna wrap it up, but uh um if you could leave the audience with a message or anything that you'd want to share with maybe your past self, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 54:41

Love the fuck out of yourself. Yeah, it really is the answer to everything, and it's not easy to do. It's really not easy to do, especially if you are someone who has made mistakes, which guess what, you're human, so you've made mistakes, right? Um, but that is the work. That's the work. And the more you can just face what's going on, face your mistakes, and really just use the phrase, I love you, but I don't love your actions, the easier it becomes, and you start seeing the evidence of it over time. And you gotta give it time.

SPEAKER_00 55:13

Yeah. Time is time is both precious and fleeting, so it's like better to use it wisely.

SPEAKER_01 55:20

That's right. There's no better way to use your time than to learn how to love yourself.

SPEAKER_00 55:24

Love that. Yeah, well, Cindy, it was a pleasure talking with you. Thank you again for coming on off the script and over the car. Um I'd love to have you on again. We maybe we can figure something out.

SPEAKER_01 55:42

Let's do it. I love it. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 55:44

No problem. And that pretty much wraps up the today's episode. Um, I just wanted to send out a huge thank you to Cindy for coming on the show and sharing her story with such honesty and openness. Truthfully, conversations like this are exactly why I started the podcast in the first place. So it's especially for our first interview, this has been an experience for sure. I can't wait for more. Um, and of course, thank you to everybody who listened all the way through, and especially for surviving the occasional microphone malfunction. Well, not occasional throughout the whole thing, but uh notes for next time. Though next time my setup won't decide to become a free thinker halfway through the episode. Um big thank you as always to our sponsor, Pete's Mead, and a special shout out to Pete himself for supporting the show from the beginning. Thank you, Pete. To the regular listeners who keep coming back episode after episode, thank you. Seriously. Watching this grow, even slowly, has truly meant the world to me. Um and to the new listeners who found the show for the first time, even today, welcome. I'm really excited for what's coming next. More conversations, more sources, stories, more chaos, probably. Um but yeah, until next time, take care of yourselves, keep thinking for yourselves, and I'll catch you over the bar. Cheers, guys.