Kids Matter!

Dr. Bubbies Schmooze About Parenting and Grandparenting

• Alisa Minkin

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Welcome to Kids Matter. I'm Dr. Elisa Minkin. As a pediatrician, mom and grandma, I understand how challenging it can be to help our kids grow into their best selves. We are so much more powerful together. Here I will be sharing the knowledge and wisdom of a wide range of people who understand and care deeply about children. I'm hoping for your input as well because kids really do matter. They are our future.

Alisa Minkin:

So I am so honored and excited to be speaking with Dr. Flo Rosen, a retired pediatrician and grandma, better known as Dr. Bubby of Ask Bubby. After an adorable clip with her eight day old grandson, precociously rolling over went viral with over 30 million views. Her daughter-in-law encouraged her to start her own social media platform. She now shares science-based advice and parenting tips with hundreds of thousands of followers on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook. I have to say, my oldest daughter told me about you. She's like, mom, there's another Dr. Bubby, because I'm Dr. Bubby in the family, whatever they

Flo Rosen:

Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

advice, should they choose to take it?

Flo Rosen:

Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

Not as often as I'd like.

Flo Rosen:

Right. Well, that's a given.

Alisa Minkin:

I know we're gonna get to that. We're gonna get to that. Why they should listen to us. No, just kidding.

Flo Rosen:

Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

We should listen to them. But anyway, we'll, we'll get to that. So, as ies, which in case you don't know, is the Yiddish word for grandma and pediatricians, we have so much to schmooze or chat about. Welcome, Dr. Rosen.

Flo Rosen:

Thank you and I really appreciate you having me.

Alisa Minkin:

I, I have been waiting for this, as you know, for a very long time, very patiently. So I'm really, really excited. So I want to start with as a pediatrician and grandma influencer. All right. I feel like you have your finger on the pulse of today's parents. What's it like being a new parent in 2025 slash 26?'cause Happy New Year.

Flo Rosen:

Same to you. I think being a new parent today is absolutely terrifying. And the reason why I say that is this generation really gets their information differently than we did. We read books, we read Penelope Leach, we read, you know, other books and talked to our pediatrician and, you know, read magazine articles in parents. And, you know, we took what was important to us. This generation is really getting information very, very differently. They're going online and they're asking questions online, plus they're getting fed different videos based on an algorithm that nobody understands. So they're having information just bombarding them and the information is frequently. Conflicting. Most of it is not science-based. There are lots of influencers out there that have no scientific background, and I think parents' heads are literally just whipping back and forth because they read something and they say, okay, that makes sense. And then all of a sudden they're fed five videos that say the exact opposite. So I think parents are truly, truly overwhelmed with information overload and they have no idea who or what's right, and I think it's just causing decision paralysis and tremendous lack of self-confidence.

Alisa Minkin:

I think so. And I don't know if you've seen a change since COVID.

Flo Rosen:

You know, I don't know in the sense that I wasn't doing this during COVID. I just started this, you know, two years ago when Trent was born. And quite frankly, I wasn't involved in social media at all. I wasn't even on Facebook. So this is all a brave new world to me.

Alisa Minkin:

That's fair. Well, I worked until recently as a pediatrician. You retired a few years ago, correct?

Flo Rosen:

Three years ago,

Alisa Minkin:

after working for over 40 years, correct.

Flo Rosen:

42.

Alisa Minkin:

Yeah, more than me, but we have a lot together, so I'm excited to, to

Flo Rosen:

Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

forces with you today. But I did work through COVID and in the post pandemic period, and what I saw is a tremendous rise in distrust of the mainstream. So it's not just that there are so many people on social media that are not or other, you know, trustworthy healthcare professionals, but that people don't trust us as much

Flo Rosen:

You know, I think, oh, that's absolutely true. There's no question about that. But what I find really difficult to get my head around and just really challenging to understand is that people that have this distrust point to COVID as proof of why they have that distrust, that they feel the messaging was wrong, that people lied to them. And I think it shows a huge misunderstanding of how science works. Could they have done better? Absolutely. Could the messaging have been clearer? Yes. Could they have stratified it more by age group and circumstance? Absolutely. But we were. So overwhelmed by this horrific pandemic that I think public health officials really chose to do the easiest, simplest messaging just to get the word out to as many people as they possibly could. And when information came in that changed, they changed the messaging. That's how science works. You learn new things and that changes what you think. But I think it's been interpreted as so much lying. And I honestly think they were mistakes. They were legitimate mistakes. Some of the distancing closing schools, you know, different approaches that different countries took. We now know better. I think to think that it was deliberately misleading. The click and, you know, really touting the wrong thing is just incorrect. Millions of lives were saved by those vaccines, and I think a lot of the social distancing and a lot of the recommendations also help save lives. And the studies are coming out now that show that comparing different scenarios. So I feel badly that what I think was absolutely brilliant in terms of coming up with how to treat somebody with severe, you know figuring out that they need to live prone when they're, you know, to avoid ventilation. All of those things. I mean, I really applaud our colleagues that figured all that out. And to point to all of that as a reason why you shouldn't believe in science just seems so backwards to me.

Alisa Minkin:

I have a different viewpoint I

Flo Rosen:

Okay.

Alisa Minkin:

You have the compassionate viewpoint towards our public health leaders and you're, I agree with you. I think you're not wrong, but I wanna give the opposite viewpoint because I'm what I call an autism mom. I have an adult daughter on the autism spectrum, and I see this through the lay person's eyes as well. I can understand where they're coming from. You know, the whole movement is something that I was impacted by too. And no, vaccines don't cause autism, I know that. But I can understand the, the rampant distrust. Part of it is the politicization and polarization that is part of our world that makes it so hard to be a parent has taken COVID and used it as great fertilizer for what we call the outrage

Flo Rosen:

I think that's true.

Alisa Minkin:

Right? So that's a piece of it is that that's the world that we're living in and it's become very, very politicized, which medicine and science should never be politicized, but I feel like it, it pulled the curtain back to show us just how politicized and polarized medicine and science have become. In other words, you say that they adjusted as the information came in, but no, there was a political, a political bias to how things were were done. Even when it wasn't as, we weren't in crisis anymore, they were still not nuancing the recommendation, say, for the COVID vaccine.

Flo Rosen:

No, I, I disagree that I would've preferred nuancing. And I think, unfortunately, as I said, the decision was made just to get it out as simply as possible to impact as many people. I don't think that was correct. Oh, no, I agree with you, but, but what I'm saying is I don't think it was a deliberate, malevolent attempt to mislead. I think they did it with the best of intentions, which. Have been proven wrong in some cases, but I, I don't think it was malevolent. And what bothers me is it's pointed to as, see they deliberately lied to us. They deliberately made us do things and I, I don't think that's fair.

Alisa Minkin:

It isn't, but that's what the polarization is, right? That's how the algorithm works. You mentioned that we don't know how the algorithm works. Oh, yes, we do. All right. elevates things that make you get more outage. The more

Flo Rosen:

Oh, that's true.

Alisa Minkin:

engage, and that has inflamed it. But I'm not saying what they did at the time. I think they did the best they could with the tools they had at the time. I really do think so. But what I was waiting for after didn't happen. Instead, they doubled down. For example, like, you know when when the COVID threat wasn't as great, why weren't they then giving more nuanced information and they didn't?

Flo Rosen:

I think that was a mistake I think they should have at that point. I agree.

Alisa Minkin:

At that point, and I think that's where the

Flo Rosen:

But, but I, but yes, but I think the distrust isn't from that. I think the distrust is from the very, very beginning.

Alisa Minkin:

Mm-hmm.

Flo Rosen:

I think starting with how did the outbreak happen? Conspiracy theories or, you know, truth, I mean, nobody has the definitive answer right now. And I, there's evidence for lots of different things, but I just think from the very beginning people thi this whole thing about how COVID was handled, set up a real dichotomy. People that. Felt they were being lied to, that there wasn't even a pandemic, that it wasn't as dangerous as people thought that the vaccines, you know, were really harmful. Versus people, quite honestly like me who are in awe that they were able to develop treatments in a vaccine in the short period of time that they did. And I think just going right to the very beginning of that, directly led to where we are now.

Alisa Minkin:

I agree. I I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I just, first of all, there was so much distrust, polarization, and politicization before. We weren't in a good place

Flo Rosen:

Yeah,

Alisa Minkin:

but I would've liked to have seen more humility afterwards and more Monday morning quarterbacking really honest and saying what we did wrong and we're gonna do it better. And I, I don't, I don't see that happening. I see doubling down, so I just have empathy for the other side. I really do understand it, and I think the builds trust. Again, I don't know how we're gonna do it because unfortunately we're in a very bad situation now with public health. Huh. I don't even wanna talk

Flo Rosen:

right. But I have to say. It's not that I lack empathy for certainly for parents right now because I think it is overwhelming hearing so many conflicting opinions and I, I, you know, you really start questioning who can you trust? So I absolutely understand where parents are, but I have to say, even though I've gotten vilified for this before, and I'm sure I will again, if, if you look statistically at the numbers and you compare studies across all continents and all countries, there is absolutely. No doubt none statistically that vaccines save lives. Vaccines reduce illness, vaccines reduce hospitalizations, vaccines reduce deaths that is unquestionable. And given how many millions and millions and millions of shots have been given across all different populations, the statistics support how safe it is. Now, that doesn't mean that people haven't been vaccine harmed. They have, and God forbid it were my child or my grandchild, I would be. Terrified, angry, upset. I, I, I don't disagree with any of that. And yes, there have been people harmed by vaccines, but when you look at the numbers, the numbers are so minuscule in terms of the number of shots given. And even if you say that VA's reporting is absolutely under-reported, which it is because self-reporting always is under-reported. The truth is the statistics. Are just overwhelming. So that doesn't mean that an individual person might not be harmed by a vaccine, but if you look at populations across the world, vaccines have been shown to be safe and to be beneficial. And I, I just think that that's the message that really needs to be shared. I mean, it needs to be shouted from the rooftops and it just is very sad to me that particularly because of social media, that message is really getting lost on lots of new parents because they're scared

Alisa Minkin:

Right.

Flo Rosen:

understand their fear.

Alisa Minkin:

And they're scared because it's also the way we think as human beings. We're not scientists, even if we're trained, by the way, as a scientist, we're still a human being. We're still a parent first. It's such a vulnerable position, and if we hear a story that something happened to our neighbor from a vaccine that's going to outweigh anything, a pediatrician says,

Flo Rosen:

You know what? I think that's true. But I will say the flip side, back in the days of the dinosaurs when I was a resident h flu homo, you know, homophily influenza, which was a bacteria, not a flu, just so our listeners know was rampant and it caused. Absolutely horrific disease, disability, and death. And I trained a chop children's hospital in Philadelphia and we had these 12 bed wards and every bed was filled with somebody with h flu disease, and they all left the hospital dead deaf or missing a limb. It was horrific. I can't tell you how many transports I did because of fear of epiglottitis. Pediatricians today have heard the word, they've never seen a case. They haven't seen a case in well over 30, 35 years because they had vaccine came out. And I will tell you, when that vaccine came out, I couldn't wait for my kid to be old enough to get it. I just about ran to my pediatrician's office. And in my own lifetime, I have seen what vaccines can do. And I, you know, my mother-in-law suffered from polio. I mean, I, I just seeing the diseases and seeing'em now. Some of them wiped out because of what we've been able to do, just overwhelmingly reinforces the benefit of vaccines to me. And yes, if you hear a horror story, it makes you frightened. I understand that. I mean, look, I remember when my kids were little. We lived in Philadelphia, and Philadelphia had fluoridated water. When we moved to New Jersey, we didn't have fluoridated water and I had to give my kids fluoride pills and every time I

Alisa Minkin:

I'm sorry it has fluoride

Flo Rosen:

fluoride tablets.

Alisa Minkin:

now.

Flo Rosen:

And I, I just remember it was like, I knew it was safe. I'd prescribed it thousands of times. I had read studies upon studies, but every time I handed to my kids one of those little fluoride pills, I, you know, you have that little twinge in your brain saying, what if they find out it's not okay.

Alisa Minkin:

Well,

Flo Rosen:

So

Alisa Minkin:

actually

Flo Rosen:

I understand it.

Alisa Minkin:

yeah. I don't mean, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but there, there

Flo Rosen:

Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

of talk now about potential risks of fluoride and it is a very hot topic.

Flo Rosen:

Again.

Alisa Minkin:

aligns with the anti-vaccine movement. Right. But any, anything we do, we are gonna have to balance the risks and benefits and science means we keep learning.

Flo Rosen:

Yeah. But I think if you're talking about the risks and benefits of fluoride, if you look at the studies and really parse what they're saying, the studies that say that they have seen a decrease of up to five IQ points in kids that take fluoride. Some of those studies did not stratify how much fluoride the kids were exposed to. And when you look at the studies that stratify it, it fluoride at the levels at which municipal water is fluoridated in the areas that still fluoridate do not show a decrease in iq. In areas where there's very high, naturally occurring fluoride, they do see some differences. So the question is really the amount of fluoride and the studies haven't really, you know, that have looked at that, have really not publicized nearly as much as the headline saying fluoride causes you, you know, to lose some IQ points. And the flip side is because of all of this outrage over fluoride and I'm, I think it was somewhere in Ontario, I do not remember what city it was, but a city in Canada stopped fluoridating. And within five years they went back to Fluoridating because the amount of severe dental caries skyrocketed so high that the kind of the harm from not Fluoridating was so great that they really had to reverse their stance, and that's not publicized enough.

Alisa Minkin:

I, I practiced on Long Island where there is no fluoride in the water and see so much dental decay and so much problems and kids having to undergo anesthesia

Flo Rosen:

Mm-hmm.

Alisa Minkin:

to, to get dental work. It's, it's,

Flo Rosen:

Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

what we need to do is we need to teach people how to do risk benefit. Assessment,

Flo Rosen:

Well, that's the key. Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

works. Like unfortunately, we don't teach that.

Flo Rosen:

Well, but I think if you, I think though, what we've really lost is if you trust your pediatrician, then you trust your pediatrician to explain the risk benefit ratio and why it's important that they recommend something. The problem is that trust is gone now. So again, who do you believe

Alisa Minkin:

And it's so hard. Back to analysis paralysis. It's so hard. But by the way, you could choose fluoride topical, just saying you can choose fluoride topical as an option instead of ingesting fluoride.

Flo Rosen:

Yeah. You know, it's true that topical fluoride can be very effective, if not, you know, as or more effective. And the a DA actually now recommends that, and they no longer recommend you know, giving oral fluoride. So I think that's, you know, a really beneficial kind of compromise that I think could really work well. But I will say, what I disagree with is the A A p American Academy Pediatrics is really an incredible advocate for kids, not necessarily for pediatricians, because I think pediatricians in practice, if they did every single thing, the A A P says they should be doing a visit with the child would be three hours long, not 15 minutes. And the idea that all pediatricians should be providing fluoride varnishes in their office and doing some of that is just not practical.

Alisa Minkin:

tower. A lot of, unfortunately, what they've been saying

Flo Rosen:

Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

tower at this point, which feeds into

Flo Rosen:

Absolutely.

Alisa Minkin:

problem, but we can get back to that later.

Flo Rosen:

Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

do you think that there's positive things from social media.

Flo Rosen:

Oh, absolutely, absolutely positively. I think. You know, what I see particularly on Instagram with my Ask Bubby account is that I think it really has become a community. And I think that parents and grandparents really help each other on it, you know? It doesn't mean they always agree with what I say, but there's always great conversation around it, and I've learned a lot from that. And I think if this little dog can learn something, it means maybe other people can as well. So I think there really is a lot of benefit to social media, but if it's used appropriately and understood, and parents you know, know how, how to vet, how trustworthy a source is, and that's a very difficult challenge.

Alisa Minkin:

It is because you, I think you can direct the algorithm by choosing wisely, but it still comes to you the really nasty stuff because it's just

Flo Rosen:

Oh, it does?

Alisa Minkin:

in and Hard not to get distracted by all these provocative posts. But you're right. Your people are awesome people. By the way, I'm one of your biggest fans and I love reading

Flo Rosen:

Thank you.

Alisa Minkin:

I love

Flo Rosen:

Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

I do believe, I love that you're saying you can learn from others and that, by the way, we are supposed to now be collaborative. We are not. I think that, you know, you trained in the era where the pediatrician was the like patriarchal or matriarchal, right? No.

Flo Rosen:

I have to cut you off there. Yes. That did exist. It absolutely existed. And quite honestly, I was persona non grata because my clinic attending, certainly as a resident, expected that he would be my kid's pediatrician. And he was a wonderful guy. Very experienced, but very paternalistic and even back.

Alisa Minkin:

Paternal,

Flo Rosen:

And E. Yeah. But even back then, that didn't fly with me. So I really chose a different pediatrician and because I wouldn't want someone paternalistic as my pediatrician, my approach to pediatrics was never. That approach. I always viewed it as collaborative. And I think starting in practice with young kids, you know, my young kids made a very big difference because I was kind of the same age as lots of my parents. And so we kind of grew up together and I think that that was really, really helpful. But I think it is true that the old view, not just to pediatricians, but physicians in general were, they were very paternalistic. They were very God-like, this is how you do it, you know, period. And I think that that has really, really changed. And I think social media. Has really provi I not even social media so much, the internet has actually leveled the playing field because parents were able to then look up things on their own and they would come in and to me and yes, you know, I joke it was Dr. Google, but they would come in with pages and pages and pages and say, well, I was reading and it says this. What do you think about that? And we'd have a very collaborative discussion about it. So I actually welcomed that. I thought that was a great very positive movement to have parents be much more involved in, you know, kind of shaping their kids', you know, medical kind of journey.

Alisa Minkin:

I didn't mean you, by the way.

Flo Rosen:

I know it's okay, but I just No, no, no. But I really do think it changed with the advent of the internet.

Alisa Minkin:

I think that there's a positive way, you know, but it's also, first of all, parents have to be realistic. And unfortunately, pediatrics, this could be a whole separate podcast of how pediatrics has changed. We do not not have time for reams of paper and, and all this discussion, it's sad because if we had more time, we could have more of that collaboration, but we don't. That's a huge problem.

Flo Rosen:

I will tell you.

Alisa Minkin:

more thing. I would say one more thing. The, the, the bigger problem is not the lack of time. The bigger problem is, is two things. The lack of trust. So that I'm not just coming in to collaborate with you, I'm coming in to tell you also more of the change of calling us providers and what I call it, the have it your way, burger King model of medicine, where they're coming and telling you what to do. And see, that's very different than a true collaborative. I, I'm all for collaboration, but collaboration means we're, we're working on it together and I bring my expertise of medicine to the table and you bring your expertise of your child to the table and maybe whatever else you've looked up, right.

Flo Rosen:

Yeah, but I, I, I have to say when it comes to time, I. I'm a very old fashioned pediatrician. I really made an effort to give my patients all the time they needed, which meant I frequently ran late and my patients knew that. And I would say if they got upset because I was coming into their room late and they were waiting, I would apologize. But I'd say it was because the patient before you really needed my time, and if you ever need my time, I will be giving it to you as well. And I think patients really appreciated that. And I do think that that's much harder now particularly in the age of private equity and, you know, a lot of pressure to kind of turn over, you know, patients quickly. But I, I still think it's very important to give patients the time that they need. And as for patients coming in and telling me what to do, that really wasn't my experience. They would come in and maybe. Say, look, I'm worried that my kid might have this. And then I would look at what they're handing me and I'd say, well, I understand why Dr. Dr. Google says that, but here's the reasons why. I don't think that's what you should be worried about. And then with my years of experience and you know, pediatric expertise, I would explain what was different about their child from what they were reading online. And I think being able to take that time and do that explanation really earned me a lot of trust and goodwill. But again, I haven't practiced in three years and I think things have radically gone downhill in three years. So I may be talking very old school.

Alisa Minkin:

Yes, you were a fantastic pediatrician and I know from your followers how much those who went to you loved you. So have

Flo Rosen:

Well, I love them and hearing from them is wonderful.

Alisa Minkin:

but, but you're being honest and I'm, I'm glad you're being honest.'cause just as when the a a p is ivory tower and removed from reality, I wanna give every pediatrician out there a big hug. I give him a hug. Right now, I just did to

Flo Rosen:

absolutely.

Alisa Minkin:

pediatrician because it, I wanna do a Barbie style monologue. Maybe I'll do it for, for Instagram about how hard it is. Have you watched the Barbie movie with America Ferrara saying

Flo Rosen:

Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

it is to be a woman? Nowadays,

Flo Rosen:

Yep.

Alisa Minkin:

we need that for parents and we need that for pediatricians. So it, it's such moral injury when we know and we really care and we can't do it. And then they're, you know, we're getting flack from the anti-vaccine, et cetera. So I really, I wanna, I wanna move into the pressure to be the perfect parent. That was not a very delicate segue. Wanna talk about that could talk, I, I could go on and on about my moral injury as a pediatrician.

Flo Rosen:

Yeah,

Alisa Minkin:

gonna help parents out there, but for all you pediatricians listening, big hugs.

Flo Rosen:

yeah, absolutely. I think the pressure to be the perfect parent is. Overwhelming now and again, it's because you look at everything that people are posting online. I mean, even things as simple as curating the perfect holiday, the perfect vacation. I think what parents need to realize is those moments when your kid is melting down and you finally lose it and, you know, say something you regret because you raise your voice or, you know, whatever it is. Those moments aren't being the ones that are being posted on social media. So everything that parents are seeing is this beautifully curated world, which isn't reality 24 7. And I think it makes it very hard because parents look at that and say, why isn't my day like that? Why isn't my kid behaving like that? Look, I can tell you, there is somebody that posted about an 11 month old girl that was eating perfectly with utensils, and I mean, perfectly sitting in her high chair eating beautifully. Trent is two and a half, and you hand him a fork and he flings it across the table. Utensils are not in his wheelhouse right now. And you know, it's, yeah, but, but you know, my daughter-in-law sees this 11 month old and it's like. Why isn't Trent using utensils? So, you know, and it's understandable. So I think what you see online is just so far removed from the average person's reality, and it creates this really unfair set of expectations for every parent to live up to that. And it's not doable. It's not sustainable.

Alisa Minkin:

It really isn't. And that's a great segue into gentle parenting because not only are they giving

Flo Rosen:

Can I groan?

Alisa Minkin:

you can, you can make audible moan grown. You can do whatever you want, but we need to talk, we need to talk about it because it's not just the, you know, aspirational parenting stuff about the beautiful home and the clothes and the this, and the that. It is the expectation that you are constantly, you know, managing your child's emotions and making sure that everything is perfect. And when you melt down, it is such a huge failure because you know, you didn't co-regulate properly.

Flo Rosen:

Yeah. You know, I have to say gentle parenting in its. Absolute truthful way is wonderful. It really just means treating your child with empathy and respect. And if they're upset about something, taking the time to sit with them, talk with them about it, and help them work through their emotions. Well, you know, that's a fantastic way to parent, and I think that that's what every parent really should strive for, as opposed to the fifties authoritarian way, which is, you know, you do it because I said so. I mean, I, you know, using swats on the tush and you know this, you do it my way without explaining anything is a terrible way to parent. So I understand that the entire kind of abreaction is the opposite way and to really, you know. Treat your child respectfully. I have no problem with that. What I have an issue with is that unfortunately, this generation has really misinterpreted gentle parenting, and they have interpreted gentle parenting in a way that they don't set limits. They don't say no because that would upset their child, and they try to really talk about all of their kids' feelings while the kid may be in the middle of a meltdown, which is absolutely not the time where your child is going to listen to a word you're saying. And anytime I have said that parents, that gentle parents get up in arms and they say, that's not gentle parenting. But the truth is, that's the majority of people that are attempting gentle parenting. And unfortunately, they are left in a state of feeling like a constant failure because they have to control their own emotions and never show their child that they're frustrated or angry or annoyed or anxious, and also help their child to control all their feelings. So if their child is having a bad moment. They take it very personally that it's, they did something wrong, that they're not helping their child with this and they're left in a constant state of feeling that they failed. It is a terrible way to parent. I, you know, I think treating your child with empathy and respect is a fabulous way to parent, but not the way it's being implemented.

Alisa Minkin:

I a hundred percent agree, and I think that one of the problems is that we're so focused on what we have to do to help our children. We're not focused enough on our own emotional needs.

Flo Rosen:

Well, we ignore it. If you're gentle parenting, you ignore your own.

Alisa Minkin:

not the way responsive parenting is supposed to be. The problem is that part of the message gets lost

Flo Rosen:

Yeah,

Alisa Minkin:

for

Flo Rosen:

it does.

Alisa Minkin:

don't know why. Maybe because on Instagram it's aspirational and they're

Flo Rosen:

I,

Alisa Minkin:

the struggle. I.

Flo Rosen:

you know. I think that's probably true. They certainly don't wanna say to a million followers, I failed. You know? And so that part doesn't get shown. But I think parents today have gotten the message that it is totally up to them to control their children's emotions. And I think they've gotten the message that if they don't, their child is going to grow up to be this horribly needy person that is clearly going to have mental health issues and need lots and lots of therapy. And that's the wrong message. But again, I think it's an a reaction to lots of parents who feel like the baby boomers failed. I mean, they feel like they were raised horribly and they wanna do the opposite. And I find that kind of reaction very upsetting as well, because. I kind of feel like I gentle parented, you know, with my kids way back when before it was ever called gentle parenting. And I find it very upsetting that baby boomers across the board are getting this very bad rap that they, you know, really ruined their kids.

Alisa Minkin:

I'm wondering if it's because we're viewing our kids' emotions in a different way. I think that we're, we are, we are not, I'm trying to think of how to say this. I, I think we're hypersensitive about everything and I think we're hypersensitive about our kids' emotions and then maybe looking back, we're hypersensitive about. Our own way. Our parents handled that emotions. I could be wrong, but I think the standard has risen, but it's not a healthy standard. I mean, I'm thinking about like Jonathan Height and Greg Luciano and the coddling of the American Mind and you know, making kids more fragile by constantly catering to every emotion that they should be comfortable and happy.

Flo Rosen:

Well, you know, some of this really started when my kids were younger and when they were in elementary school, every kid was a winner. Every kid got a trophy. You know, that's not reality. And I think there has to be a happy medium. I think kids have to develop resiliency. They're not going to develop resiliency if every single time they're upset, they're kind of coddled through it and everything is made better. Again. I mean, kids have to fail. They have to make mistakes. They have to learn what their limits are in order to grow and to be resilient. And I think gentle parenting doesn't, in a way most people are implementing. It doesn't allow for that, and that's really upsetting to me.

Alisa Minkin:

I agree, and I think it's because I'm wondering if that generation is not really the generation that had authoritarian parents, but the trophy generation,

Flo Rosen:

They're the That's absolutely true. My kids didn't have authoritarian parents, but they did have the trophy parents. Absolutely.

Alisa Minkin:

I think the problem is that if that parents are having a hard time tolerating their children's distress, that's why I think that gentle parenting has turned into the. Unfortunate kind of parenting it is instead of what it's supposed to be. It is really supposed to be about teaching you how to regulate your own emotions so that you can model it to your kids. It really is supposed to be that way in theory.

Flo Rosen:

Yeah. But that's not what's happening. Well let. Let, let me rephrase that. I think it is happening, but to a, to a limited extent because no parent can be a hundred percent, even a hundred percent of the time we're human. You know, there are things that are gonna piss you off. There are things that are gonna make you lose it. And I think that it's okay to, if that happens, you say to your kid, you apologize, you show them that you're human and you say, I'm sorry, I yelled about that. I was really stressed that we weren't going to get to the appointment on time and you weren't putting on your jacket. I wish I had asked you to start earlier so you wouldn't have felt rushed. Okay, that's a reasonable response to say to your kid and explain you're sorry you lost it. I think that's actually helpful even because your kid sees that you're human. But I think it's wrong to. Try to sugarcoat everything and not show that something is frustrating you or not showing that something is making you angry. Because then what happens if a kid feels frustrated or angry? Do they think there's something wrong with them? Because their mother never does that, you know, that's wrong. They need to see how parents handle that. They learn from modeling. And I think that if a parent loses, you know, loses their patience, you know, loses their cool, that happens and you just explain why it happened and how you could have handled it better and that teaches your child.

Alisa Minkin:

and that is part of the theoretical basis of responsive parenting or gentle parenting, whatever you wanna call it. It's just somehow that message maybe is getting lost or maybe it's just too hard in the moment. I think of, you know, even back when I was raising Kids Parenting magazine, I call it refrigerator door parenting, where you have to write down, say this, not that, don't take a job.

Flo Rosen:

Hey, but they had some good articles.

Alisa Minkin:

They did. I loved it. But my point is that the idea that in the moment you're not going to your refrigerator and saying, I have to say this, I can't say that. And I think maybe that's the problem with gentle parenting too, is because controlling your own emotions, tolerating your child's distress is one of the hardest things you will ever do.

Flo Rosen:

Yeah, I think that's true. You wanna make the world better for your child. You want them to not suffer or feel pain, but you can't grow without that. You certainly can't develop resiliency without it.

Alisa Minkin:

Right. One of my theme songs is Put your emotional oxygen mask on first. You know, get the help that you

Flo Rosen:

Yeah,

Alisa Minkin:

struggling and be honest with yourself that you're struggling. I, I think we have to be the perfect parent and we can't say I'm struggling'cause it's not being modeled to us. Just the perfection is being modeled to us back to

Flo Rosen:

I think that's right.

Alisa Minkin:

standard. So, yes, I

Flo Rosen:

Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

we really agree on this, but I wanna get to something positive. I think that that's a positive and I wanna get to grandparents and, because I feel like grandparents are a. You know, when, if you're lucky enough, if you're fortunate enough to have a living, grandparents, you know, and b, a good relation to healthy relationship with them, they can be an incredible source of support.'cause we're talking about all the things that make it so hard to be a parent. What can we do to make it better? I definitely want to get more positive here because one of my themes of my podcast is it takes a village to, to raise kids, build your village. And I think an important part of that village, should you have them, is grandparents. And by the way, I'm just putting a plug out here, I don't know if it's a thing, I've never seen it anywhere, but I still think that you can find potentially surrogate people to, you know, neighbors or friends or other relatives.

Flo Rosen:

absolutely. Yeah,

Alisa Minkin:

don't want people

Flo Rosen:

absolutely.

Alisa Minkin:

this doesn't appear, you know?'cause you yourself

Flo Rosen:

Now a village is a village. Wherever you find it.

Alisa Minkin:

Yeah, You, you didn't

Flo Rosen:

Yeah,

Alisa Minkin:

Right. Parents to be grandparents.

Flo Rosen:

I didn't have it. My mother died when my first son was six weeks old, and I had very close friends. We were in a playgroup and we helped each other. I mean, that's how we got through, you know, those early years.

Alisa Minkin:

But I think it's

Flo Rosen:

But

Alisa Minkin:

helpful to have someone who's not your peer because there's so much wisdom that someone our age brings to the table. Listen to us, please listen to us.

Flo Rosen:

yeah, I think we've lived a little longer

Alisa Minkin:

Yes. I mean, I also, when I was trying to prepare for this talk, I couldn't find how to talk to your parent child about the grandchild. When you have concerns, it's all about, you know, how the, you have to tell the parent, grandparent to step out, and I feel like there should be two

Flo Rosen:

now.

Alisa Minkin:

parallel things here.

Flo Rosen:

No, I, I think it's very interesting because on Ask Rubby, I get asked this a lot when grandparents see something that they are very uncomfortable with and they ask how do they deal with it? How do they approach it? And I, I think that. As grandparents, we are very vulnerable because if we over, you know, our fear is if you overstep, you will somehow not be able to see your grandchild. You know, your grandchild will be withheld from you. So I don't think any grandparent wants to be in a position of fighting with a parent over how they raise their child. And as I've said, many a time, it's their child, their rules, you know, they get to make those decisions, but that doesn't mean as a grandparent you don't have concerns or you can't raise them. I think it's all in how you do it, and I, I think it's really important especially if it's around safety. You know, if it, if it's around something, you know let's say your kid, your, your grown child doesn't put their kid in a car seat, you know, as a grandparent. How do you stay silent about that? You know, that's dangerous. So I think it's very, very important how you approach your child. And I think you need to say, look, this is your child and I know you get to make the decisions on how you want to raise them, but I would feel remiss as a grandparent if, and I, if I didn't raise something that's concerning me. So I just wanna raise it so that you know my concerns and then it's up to you, however you want to deal with that. And I think you say it, you express it, you know you've done your part, and then you really have to bite your tongue and

Alisa Minkin:

You model it with your own car seat that you buy, make sure you have a good quality

Flo Rosen:

yeah. Right. And, and, and I think that you really have to stress to the parents that you are not disagreeing with their parenting overall, that you have a particular concern, you're raising it.'cause you'd be remiss and that's all you can do. You know, I, I think you can raise it once and either they listen or they don't. And I have to admit, I'm guilty. I have raised things more than once, but I think I can pull the pediatrician card so I get a little, you know, leeway from that. But there are things where after I've raised that I have to just bite my tongue and, you know, they're gonna do what they're gonna do.

Alisa Minkin:

You know, you're doing a good job as a grandparent when your tongue is completely Ben up and to be,

Flo Rosen:

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It gets mangled on a daily basis.

Alisa Minkin:

but but the flip side, how do parents handle it when the grandparents are meddling? Or

Flo Rosen:

know, I.

Alisa Minkin:

that they believe is dangerous, that comes up in your feet all the time.

Flo Rosen:

I think there are really two sides to this. I think parents. Need to express very clearly what's important to them. You know, especially about safety. They need to say, look, I know when I was little, you put me to sleep on my stomach. The studies today show that's really not safe. You know, you have to put the baby down in their back and you really can't put any pillows or blankets in the crib. Now, parents might not like that. I mean, grandparents might not like that. So if that's the case, show them a video I've done. Show them an article, show them, you know, a printout. What the a a p says about safe sleep. I mean, if it's something that's safe, you can show them what has changed. And I think it's very important that you explain the whys and tell them very clearly that's what you want them to do. Now if a grandparent then. Absolutely. You know deviates from that on purpose, well, they've lost their rights. You know if a grandparent is going to insist on putting the baby down on the, on their belly after you've told them not to, that grandparent's not gonna be putting that baby down. I, I think those are some of the non-negotiable things when it comes to safety. But the flip side is, if a parent is so adamant about controlling every single thing, and they hand the grandparents a seven page document when they're babysitting for an hour about what they have to do and how they have to have, you know, no more than half an ounce of water and it has to be given between 10 and 10 15 or whatever it is, that's unreasonable for parents to expect that. It's also unreasonable for parents. Not to understand that grandparents have a very separate role with their grandkids, and if that means spoiling them by giving them an extra cookie, if that means giving them extra time. If you're playing a game and you know, maybe they go to bed 15 minutes later, you know what? Those are things that bond a grandparent to a child, and those are actually things that should be really welcomed and overlooked. And it was interesting because a parent actually commented that when we had this discussion online and they said that they think what makes the difference is the frequency. If the parent sees the child, you know, if the grandparent sees the child once a week, you know, or once a month and they give an extra cookie, you know, or give cookies for breakfast, that's not going to hurt the child. But if the parent, if the grandparent sees the kid lots of times and undermines every rule that the parent has that's not fair to the parent and it's also not fair to the child. So I think that's right. I think you have to be sure that. What you're ask, you know what, what a parent is asking of a grandparent is really, really necessary. And I think it's also a matter of how often is the grandparent gonna deviate, you know? Can you look the other way? If it's just occasionally? Yeah, I think you can

Alisa Minkin:

That is such a fantastic answer. And there are grandparents who care for the children, which is an amazing benefit, but

Flo Rosen:

that, but that's a very different.

Alisa Minkin:

Yeah.

Flo Rosen:

That's a very different dynamic. If, and I've said this online, if you are taking care of that child, you are doing it in a parenting role. And that means you have to follow what the parents ask. And the one example that I always give, but only because it's so clear cut, is if the parents are raising the child as a vegetarian, whether you agree or not, you don't offer that kid a hamburger when they're visiting. You know, that's a basic fundamental decision the parents made. And as a grandparent you can't undermine that. But it, you know, if the parents say one cookie after dinner and you're seeing your child, it's once a week and you say, okay, you can have a second cookie, that's not gonna hurt anything.

Alisa Minkin:

That's true, but I think that's where you need to have collaborative conversations between the

Flo Rosen:

Absolutely. Yes.

Alisa Minkin:

it. If they are super strict about sugar and they don't agree, but see

Flo Rosen:

No, I agree with you on that.

Alisa Minkin:

same comment about tongue biting, you know, you're being a good a daughter or or son if your tongue is bitten up in millions of places because you have to be able to be flexible too, where you can be. Right.

Flo Rosen:

yeah, and I do think talking about it is important because there may be a reason the parents may think their child is very sensitive to sugar. And if you give that extra cookie that kid's never gonna go to bed that night, and the parents, you know, believe that and see it, well that's a very different scenario then. So I think you're right. You absolutely have to talk about it, but I think parents that get. Totally meant to have. I mean, I was once on a cruise and there was, and I had just started Ask Bubby, I mean, literally, I think two months earlier, and I'm on the cruise and this grandmother was on the ship and found out that I was Ask Bubby and she told me how her daughter-in-law absolutely put her in the doghouse. And she, there's nothing she can do to get out because the daughter-in-law was breastfeeding, went went out for an hour, you know, and left the child with her and didn't leave any milk. And the kid was so incredibly hungry and crying that she felt she had to do something. So she gave the child a bottle of water. The daughter-in-law went absolutely berserk. How dare she give water? And she tried explaining, she was crying. I tried everything. There was nothing I could do. And the daughter-in-law was so convinced that that really was going to hurt the child. That one bottle of water was not going to hurt the child. The grandmother did it in desperation, not because she believed that kid needed to be given a bottle of water all the time. And that's a case where, okay, you talk about it and next time you know, the daughter-in-law can leave a bottle of pumped milk and the mother-in-law won't give water. But to have a war over that and not allow the grandmother to see the child, that's absurd.

Alisa Minkin:

Yeah, no. We discussed this before doing this talk that I want to dedicate this talk to my father-in-law who just recently passed away. And

Flo Rosen:

I'm so sorry that,

Alisa Minkin:

you. He, he was a giant and he's left a huge gaping hole in our lives. it was just very recent and actually it was, the funeral was the day that I was originally supposed to interview you. So I thank you for, for being flexible with me. But I've been

Flo Rosen:

of course.

Alisa Minkin:

of thought, a a lot of thought to the important role that grandparents play. And one of the things I wanna talk about with you is one of the things that came up, I told you is should the

Flo Rosen:

Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

turning, turning eight and turning 10, come to the funeral? And I told you, my daughter asked me the pediatrician, Dr. Bubby, right? Her Dr. Bubby, and I said, no, and I was wrong. And,

Flo Rosen:

Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

I'd like to give you a chance to talk about it, but I just wanna say what happened in the end was, my son-in-law is a rabbi. He was the rabbi for the funeral, and he got a second opinion from somebody, not, not his mother-in-law, and, and he said, no, you should take them, but you should prepare them first. So that's what we did and I'm really, I'm really glad we did it. But it also shows the need to get somebody more objective in even if you are a professional.

Flo Rosen:

Yes.

Alisa Minkin:

So I wanna give you a chance to talk about that, because part of having a, a relationship is also the difficult parts, right?

Flo Rosen:

Yeah. I actually did some research on this as a resident, so it's kind of an interesting topic to me. The thing that I think is most overwhelming is that kids' imaginations are far worse than reality. So if they don't see that their grandparent died, they don't see the funeral, they don't see other people crying because that grandparent is gone. What they imagine went on or what's going on can be far worse in their minds. So, I mean, it clearly is age dependent and parents know their kids best. A mature. Five yearold or 6-year-old may be able to handle it. And an immature 8-year-old may not be able to, but parents do know their children, and I think that you really wanna be as honest with the child as possible because their imaginations do run wild. And you also want to be very realistic in the wording that you use. Because if you use euphemisms, oh, granddad went to sleep in the sky, you know, something like that. The, the kids' imaginations, they think you go to sleep and all of a sudden you're gonna end up in the sky and they don't understand it. So you wanna be as direct as possible and you really want to equate it with something that maybe they can relate to. If they had a pet that died, if I mean even something terrible as an insect, an insect died so it didn't move again. You know, adult, you know, people's bodies do that too. And granddad's body just wore out and, you know, so he died. And you know, we are burying him, however you say it, but the idea is to be as direct as possible because what they will imagine is so much worse.

Alisa Minkin:

It's absolutely true, and I think people make the mistake of confusing, again, back to resilience and your own emotions of not being able to tolerate their child's discomfort. And I, I, I wanna give grace to, to people going through this because when you're going through this, just like for me, right, you know, my family, I think it's okay to say, you don't have to be this perfect parent here and follow, you know, what you've laid out so

Flo Rosen:

Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

the correct way to do it is to be nice to yourself and give yourself grace and say, okay, I, I, I can't, I I can't do this.

Flo Rosen:

Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

We'll get to it later. I'll talk with them later once I have been able to process my own emotions, that's okay. They don't necessarily have to be there, it's just if they are there, they should be prepared properly, right?

Flo Rosen:

I will tell you tangentially to this, I remember when my son first asked about the birds and the bees, and he was in the bathroom and he asked me a question and. Me the pediatrician totally fumbled and all of a sudden I just went Mark and called for my husband. Well, by the time my husband was done, my son thought babies grew on trees. So I realized that he didn't do such a hot job either. And the next time it came up I was very prepared and did it right. So, you know, all of us fumble at times and you know, you're right. Give yourself grace. You do the best you can under the circumstances.

Alisa Minkin:

caught off guard, you can say, you know what? That's a really good

Flo Rosen:

I

Alisa Minkin:

I'm not ready to talk about, but I'm gonna come back later and get to that question.

Flo Rosen:

now, that's a phenomenal answer.

Alisa Minkin:

And it's honest, but it's, I, I think modeling to kids that we have emotions and,

Flo Rosen:

Yeah, absolutely.

Alisa Minkin:

we need to control, that we need to work on them. We're, we're modeling it. That modeling is more than any set of words we'll ever do.

Flo Rosen:

I think that's true. I think that's very true.

Alisa Minkin:

So one more topic I wanna get into and then I'm gonna, like, we could talk all day.

Flo Rosen:

Two Jewish puppies. Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

Two

Flo Rosen:

It doesn't end.

Alisa Minkin:

We were schmoozey before. We could schmooze after. But the one thing I wanna also say is another thing that came up during this difficult time was the appreciation of how much our sets of grandparents our parents while raising a child with special needs. And I literally went to my, my mother and my mother-in-law and said, thank you. You do not understand how you held us together. And so I wanna share that gives me a segue, a kind of

Flo Rosen:

Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

share what this daughter with special needs said. She said to me, she loves these reborn dolls. They're like her baby. She collects them. And she also likes to watch videos of people who collect reborn. So she's watching this woman, and this woman lives far from her grandchild, which we never got into How you live far and you're a model for how you

Flo Rosen:

Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

grandparenting, but you could talk about that now in a minute if you want. And she said that this grandparent bought a doll to resemble her grandchild, who she lived far from. And my daughter says, why didn't she just spend the same money on a plane ticket?

Flo Rosen:

Well, I have spent money on tons of plane tickets and then carried it to the nth degree and just bought a house three blocks from where my grandson is. So I will definitely be bicoastal. I, you know, I think grandparents plays such a special role and I was very sad that I never got to see my mother be a grandmother to my children. And I think, you know, grandparenting is just the most special thing in the entire world, and I wouldn't miss one day if I can avoid it, you know, of being with my grandson. So I think your daughter was very wise because quite honestly, you know, if I couldn't afford a home and if I couldn't afford the flights, I would be zooming or FaceTiming a million times a week and I would be scrounging up all of my pennies so that I could make that trip. And I just think grandparents are really important and grandchildren are just the most wonderful thing in the entire world.

Alisa Minkin:

are. And you reminded me about the zooming and FaceTiming or WhatsApp video, which is also a good option. It's really, really a great

Flo Rosen:

It's changed pa. It has changed Grandparenting.

Alisa Minkin:

COVID, that was one rare good thing that came out of COVID. And I just wanna tell one cute story, cute story, and then we really have to go. And that's my, my mother is Gigi. Okay. By the way, in Bubby, a great-grandmother is the Alta Bubby, the old bubby. And my mother said, oh. I'm be the Ulta puppy. I'm gonna be Gigi for a great grandma. So she's Gigi and she built such a relationship.'cause unfortunately we don't live that. We don't live as far as you, but not close enough. And when you're older, it's, you know, you're less mobile. And so she built such a relationship just from these FaceTiming that I was with my grandson, max. And he was eating dinner and he didn't want to talk to me. He needed to have his Gigi on a screen while he ate. We

Flo Rosen:

Yeah,

Alisa Minkin:

screens and the downside of screens, but it is not screen time when you're talking to your grandparent.

Flo Rosen:

it. It absolutely is not.

Alisa Minkin:

It really,

Flo Rosen:

Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

So you make that relationship, don't underestimate even, even FaceTiming or WhatsApp or videoing or whatever. You can build a very strong relationship here. He wanted her more than me in the flesh.

Flo Rosen:

Yeah, but you know, that's actually another case where it's really just as dependent on the parents as the grandparents, and I think both sides really need to work together to make that relationship happen.

Alisa Minkin:

I agree, and we really have to move on. So I wanna thank you so much. If you want, you can tell us how, where to find you, although I think you're easy to find.

Flo Rosen:

Well, I'm under Ask Bubby, B-U-B-B-I-E on both Instagram and TikTok. Actually threads as well now, and Facebook has some stuff as well. But I really, I would love to hear from everybody and to have people join the community that we've developed.

Alisa Minkin:

I love your people by the way, so it, it is

Flo Rosen:

I do too.

Alisa Minkin:

it is a great positive thing. We should make

Flo Rosen:

Hmm.

Alisa Minkin:

tilt more in your direction, so I thank

Flo Rosen:

Well thank you.

Alisa Minkin:

so much.

Flo Rosen:

No, I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much.

Thank you for listening to Kids Matter. Raising Healthy, happy Children Takes a village, and I'm grateful you are part of ours. If today's conversation resonated with you, please share this episode with another parent, grandparent, teacher, or anyone who cares about kids. Together we can build a supportive community our children deserve. I'd love to hear from you. Share your thoughts, questions, or suggestions for future topics at Kids Matter podcast@gmail.com. With no explanation for your voice truly matters. Until next time, keep advocating for the children in your life because kids really do matter. They are our future. I'm Dr. Elisa Minkin and this has been Kids Matter. Please note that while I am a pediatrician, I am not your child's ped. This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute medical. For any medical concerns or decisions. Reach out to your child's healthcare professional.