Real Life Gentle Parenting with Dr Elana Dumont

Transcript

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Welcome to Kids Matter. I'm Dr. Elisa Minkin. As a pediatrician, mom and grandma, I understand how challenging it can be to help our kids grow into their best selves. We are so much more powerful together. Here I will be sharing the knowledge and wisdom of a wide range of people who understand and care deeply about children. I'm hoping for your input as well because kids really do matter. They are our future. I'm really excited to be here today with Dr. Alana Duma. Hi, Dr. Duma. Hi. Dr. Duma is a New York based licensed clinical psychologist, parent, coach, and school psychologists specializing in anxiety, depression, and life transitions with expertise in CBT. Mindfulness and parent management training. She supports clients from early childhood through adulthood. Dr. Dumont offers a unique perspective on school related stress and maternal mental health. As a type one diabetic and medical advisor, she is a passionate adv advocate for those navigating the intersection of chronic illness and mental health. Helping families and individuals move from struggle to strength, I have to say we're, we're never gonna be done. We're just gonna have to have multiple talks. No problem. Just that alone is not gonna be something we can completely finish talking about in one episode. Her website is Dr. Alana Dumont. I'll spell it Doctor with no dot E-L-A-N-A-D-U-M-O-N t.com. She can be reached at Alana Dumont, Cy d psy d@gmail.com. Thank you Dr. Dumont so much for joining me today. Absolute pleasure. I really appreciate it. So full disclosure, I've known you since you were a little girl. That's true. Growing up on my block, and this is really perfect because I wanna start with talking about our experiences of our generations of parenting. Before we go into parenting today. So let's, let's start with that. I grew up in the 1960s and there was basically one guy to rule them all. Dr. Benjamin Spock, not the character from Star Trek. Okay. And I read his book when I was a little kid,'cause I was that nerdy kind of kid and I was like, oh, I wanna be this when I grow up. Do what you were interested in. And I did. Yeah. Yeah. And his first line was iconic. It was, trust yourself, you know, more than you think you do. That is such an empowering message. And then he gave the information, but he started out with trust yourself and he really reassured and educated, I think three generations of parents, including my parents and including, I guess me. Yeah, I, I, I think that pediatricians and including, that's what I try to do as a pediatrician. Try to be that kind of reassuring. But empowering person, you know, we give the information, but the parents know what to do with it and they, at the end of the day have to trust their gut. Yeah. So what do you think about how you grew up? My parents going to be listening to this. Yeah. How? How? What do I think about how I go? Your friends? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I should be careful. No, I'm, I'm only kidding. No, no disrespect to my parents or any of the parents that raised my generation of, of kids. I actually think of them as in so many ways, I think that they, they almost didn't realize the, the advantages that they gave us because of the ways that they were raising us, which I know we'll, we'll sort of get more into what's happening now and since then, but I think there was this. Hands-off approach in, in some ways, right where they did let us just be, a lot of the time, I don't really have conscious memories of this parenting thing being such a thing. My, my own mother will even tell me now, like, you guys, like, you think about everything and, and she will with, with, you know, with, with positive connotations say to me things like, yeah, you know so much more now than, than we ever did. But I, I think that. That's a, a double-edged sword sometimes. Right? Like, I think there were so many things growing up where they did not over sink all of these decisions and, and what classes we were placed into and what extracurriculars we were doing. We just kind of were, and I came home from school. I rode my bike. I I right past your house, Dr. Minkin. Right. And I went on explorations of West Hempstead and it, it wasn't. There was not this hyperfocus on, on how are we raising our kids in, in the sense, in the same way that we are doing it now, I think, I think that there's pitfalls to that, but I also think there was actually a lot of good because of it. Why don't you start with the good, because we're gonna do that sandwich, huh? Sure. I'll start with the good. Yeah. I think, you know, like I just referenced, I, I recall a good, appropriate level of independence of trust, uh. You know, you can choose, you can do what you want, you can listen to your, your desires. Again, I, I really, I do, I hold onto, and, you know, I know later on we're going to reference the anxious generation, but I, I hold onto this visual of myself getting off the bus with my brother, dropping off our backpacks at, at the front of the door, getting on our bikes, meeting our neighbors, and just hours. It could have been hours. That, and, and nobody really. Told us what time to get home and, and you know, I, I, my homework got done somehow. I, I cared about school. It, it was not an afterthought, but we had a lot of opportunity to really just grow and develop social skills really in, in real life. And, and I say that because now we know so many of our kids are coming home. They're getting right on the screens and they're, you can argue, but they're socializing. But we were just always around other, our peers. We were face-to-face. We were doing things, we were problem solving, we were experiencing figuring things out, and, and I think that that was really to our benefit. It, it really helped. And there wasn't so much concern for safety. Not in an unsafe way, but meaning, you know, there, there was a trust, there was, you can make good decisions and we'll let you explore and do things, and we trust that you'll, you know, you'll, you'll make mistakes and you'll learn from those mistakes. And so that, that's how I, that's how I see it in, in a more positive light. You think there's a negative side to that too? We'll turn this part off for your parents. I, I think that if I were to think of the negative, and this is certainly not my only, my, my upbringing, I mean, what I recall from growing up. Um, not, again, not only for myself, I, I, I have peers, friends, we, we all talk about this just being what the times were then my, my old clients, my, my private clients that I work with now, right? I think that. As a kid, I couldn't really make sense of this, but if I'm reflecting back, I would, I was obviously a person who was always very interested in, in feelings, right? I, I, I sort of knew, similar to you, I knew from a young age I wanted to be a psychologist, whatever that meant, whatever understanding I I had of what that career was, it was fascinating to me that someone's feeling. Could influence their actions and the way that they think. And why does one person grow up in a, the same house as a sibling? But then they come out two different ways. But they had the same set of parents. And these were always things that were really interesting to me. And I think that there wasn't, at that time of, of my development and childhood, there wasn't enough of a focus on how somebody felt and how important it was to feel that way and what that meant. And I think that the. The misunderstanding or the misperception by a lot of a, the parents of, of, you know, my childhood's generation, was that if somebody felt a negative feeling that we needed to get rid of that feeling that it was not okay to feel that way. Something's wrong if you feel that way, and let's figure out just to move past that as quickly as possible. I think that there was a big focus on reward and punishment. Um, I think that, again, just pertaining to. Someone's, let's say a tantrum or a frustration or, or anxiety, what, whatever it is, let's figure out, you know, how to get rid of that feeling and let's do it by some time type of external element. Let's introduce something that will be on the outside and, and take the focus off of how somebody feels on the inside. And I think that the, you know, the, the disadvantage of that is that we then grow up a feeling uncomfortable with, with negative feelings. And not really then, then to play it forward to the next generation. And, and now we're young parents raising, raising our young kids and we're now, we, we become uncomfortable with, with their negative feelings. And, and we are not, we, we have that same urge to, to extinguish them as quickly as possible versus teaching regulation skills, resilience, you know, all, all those good things that the buzzwords right now, I think that there just wasn't enough of enough attention on or, or, or permission or giving space to parents. To just pause and be present with their children in, in these, in these experiences. We're not talking about our specific parents here. Definitely not. Guys, if you're listening, it's not you. You were great. You rocked it totally. No, but, but there's a reason I think we're having a backlash to a certain kind of parenting and I think it also reflects that we've learned a lot about children's emotions and I think that that's a good thing. Totally a very good thing, but, but. I think that there's pitfalls to that approach too, and I'm gonna give you an opening to talk about that now. Please. Actually, before we do that, I think you really should explain the three different styles of parenting. The, the authoritative authoritarian, very unfortunately, similarly named, and then the permissive just to. Give us context. I do recall that being a very confusing thing for me in graduate school, like having to remember the difference between those. I'll start, like you said, no, I'm gonna start with the, the less ideal ones and I'll work up to the, to the ideal. So the perfect parenting, we'll get to that too. So, right. So authoritarian, you know that one is usually characterized with very, a lot of rules, consequences, firm boundary, like very focused on the boundaries and the rules. Not a lot of warmth between parents and child permissive being on the opposite end of the spectrum, very focused on not upsetting a child. Kind of what it sounds like. Just kind of letting anything go to avoid conflict and having a child feel upset. But then obviously the ideal being the authoritative, just focus on that, that ending of the word right, to know the difference, which I think we're all striving for, which is really just a, a really. Good, nice, appropriate combination between validation and boundary setting, right? So you're, you're providing warmth, you're focusing on the attachment and the relationship, and you're also setting rules, expectations, boundaries for, for your child ultimately to keep them safe and, and help them thrive and develop in the world. That's a great description, and that gives me the perfect chance to start diving into gentle parenting. Is it authoritative or is it permissive? Trigger word. Right. Gentle parenting has become like such a, just the word makes everybody start yelling at each other. So I, I actually think that there's just so much misconception of what that even means, and I don't even know if I subscribe to that, to be honest with you, because I think it's a, I think it's a misnomer. I think that people. Think they know what it means and then it actually like, sort of leans towards the permissive end of the parenting styles. But it's, it's, I think as it originated, that was not the intention. I, I think it sort of took on a different definition as as time went on. So, and I keep changing the name and that tells you something. So whatever you call it, unconditional, gentle, responsive attachment. I don't care what you call it. Yes. Right. What is that? In the ideal world, I think in the ivory tower, I, I think the original intention, if I understand, was that it was supposed to align with authoritative parenting, but what would that be? What would that look like? Meaning, well, and before I, before I go further into that, I, I just want, wanna say on record. I never say that I practice gentle parenting in my own parenting in my own home or in parent coaching with my clients because I think that it ends up sounding like all we care about are feelings and, and again, goes back to that idea of actually what I referenced earlier, that then we're actually not teaching our children regulation because we end up only. Doing things to accommodate our kids in, in challenging experiences for fear that they'll have a tantrum or an escalated response. And then in turn we feel dysregulated and out of control and we, and we don't know how to handle our kids or ourselves in these moments. And then what ends up happening, which is what I think did happen, is that people hear gentle parenting and they think, okay, so you let your kid do whatever they want. Which is really not the case. Case think's permissive parent that it's permissive, right. EE, exactly right. I I, I agree with you that what we're calling gentle parenting in its ideal form when it's practiced correctly, has nothing to do with permissive parenting. It is authoritative parenting. Right. But I think there's a lot of reasons why it is not like that in real life. And so there's a number of pieces I wanna go into about that. But what does it look like? The, the authoritative parenting, right? I think what it look is taking into account. Your relationship with your children. And let me just state on record too. Anyone who knows me, if, if my my own friends, my family is listening, I'm heavily influenced by Dr. Becky Kennedy. I trained under her for a while. She is, to me, the essence of authoritative parenting, right? And it's also very influenced by attachment, attachment theory. That is very different than when people say, again, the permissiveness and, and just focusing on your, your child's attachment to you in, in like the, with like a negative undertone. Right. But when, when we say attachment theory, it's actually just referencing how a child develops and how they learn to see the world and have the relationship with their caregivers. If, if it's a, a secure attachment. How that influences the way that they are able to take risks and the way that they're able to learn regulation skills and that. So, so for me, when I think about parenting styles, I do always put the relationship first. Now, when I say that, that again does not mean that you need to do things so that your child is never upset with you, right? One of the biggest main things I always say to parents when I'm working with them is your child's feelings should never dictate the boundaries that you set, right? So it can be both things and there's, there's a dichotomy here. Any for any DBT, right? Two things are true. Two opposing things can be true. Your child can feel upset and you are allowed to validate that you are allowed to say, you don't like my rule. You don't like that you have to go to sleep tonight at seven o'clock. You can cry about that. That is okay. The crying should not then urge you to change their bedtime, right? You can hold your boundary of a 7:00 PM bedtime and also have to tolerate that your child is angry with you, and that does not conflict or undermine the idea of attachment theory or having your child feel connected to you. Right? So my first thought is, you said something before about how the parent may have a hard time. Tolerating the child's distress. Okay. So that to me is the issue because say you were parented by an authoritarian or permissive parent or in some unhealthy relationship, you don't have the skills to co-regulate with your child. And I think a lot of people do have these kind of problems or, or relative weaknesses. And that's why it's so hard to put this into play. Yes. I, I couldn't agree more. I think that the inconvenient truth when a parent is trying to navigate some of these things is that it actually requires a great deal of self-reflection, self-awareness and, and reprocessing one's own, own history and, and development. Right? Because there's so, and you know, again, this is one of those moments, Dr. Minkin, that I think we can totally enter in it a whole different episode. But I, I'll just say briefly that. We all hold so much of our own histories within ourselves. Some that we are aware of and some are completely unconscious, buried, somewhere underneath. Right? And our children, those, those little beings, they are going not, they are not going to let us forget those things. Again, whether it comes out physically that our body just tenses up when our kids walk through the door and start that tantrum or start asking us for things or. Even consciously that, you know, we, we, we know this is a very triggering situation for me because I experienced this growing up and it's hard for me to do the, the thing that I know is, is the better way, right? But I, I'm like, kind of trapped in this cycle of what I, of what's more familiar to me in terms of my response. And so. Whenever I work with families, I, I, I say this right away. This is not a quick fix. I, I can give you all the scripts in the world. I will tell you what to say when your kids say, I'll say, I'll tell you the perfect thing to say, but if you are not whole with yourself and that, that's a lifelong journey. But if, if you are not aware of these things in you, it really won't matter. And if we don't understand child development. Attachment theory and the neuroscience and the ideal, and what the definition of co-regulation even is, then a lot of these things will be hard to implement. They won't, they won't feel genuine. What's co-regulation? Co-regulation meaning the, you know, the concept where us as parents, our calmness, right? When, when we stay calm and sturdy, and when I say calm, I don't, I don't mean like then, I don't mean like we're meditating, right? But I, I just think of a child having a tantrum. That's just the, the easiest visual for me. Your, your kid is like throwing it down on the floor, flailing, and we don't allow for that experience to then dysregulate us. So we stay sturdy, we stay calm and can remain calm so that our child can somehow or somewhat. Absorb that calmness. So again, it's not so much what we are gonna do or say in the moment to the child, but it's like kind of how we're saying it to them. The sturdiness of our tone, the calmness of our tone, this, this dance that we do, it starts right away from when the baby's born, right? It, this, this feels more instinctual for some, as, as you know, parents, when we have these newborn who come out screaming, right? And we, we very instinctually will, we'll pick them up. Whether they need to sleep or eat, or they just wanna be held and rocked, and then we just hold them close and shush and rock and hum and, and maybe sing something right. And then they, they slowly come back down from, from their escalation. Now again, the colic days like that can be traumatic for so many people, but if you think about it like little kids, little problems like this, this idea of co-regulation, that they literally feel our calmness as infants. They can calm down because they're, they're using our calmness, right? But this process is not over just because they become toddlers and then they become elementary school kids and then they're teenagers. Right? Our calmness in the face of their dysregulation is probably the utmost important parenting strategy more than, than any other behavior chart or thing we're going to do or say. It's. It's giving them even a nonverbal message of, I can handle whatever storm you're in right now as your sturdy parent, and I'm, I'm showing you that this is not an emergency. And therefore they will in turn, not feel as frightened by their, their intense feelings because they see that we are not. So this back and forth is, is what we call co-regulation. See, as I'm hearing this, I'm thinking, oh my gosh, not only do I have to handle my kids' big feelings, but at the same time make sure I'm handling my, my big feelings. Yeah. And what if I can't and I'm just a failure? Would you like me to answer that for you? Yes, please. I mean, I have my thoughts, I have my thoughts, but I don't wanna, well, obviously the first thing I'm going to tell you is you are not a failure. Yes. And, and, and I, and I, I'm, I'm, I'm half joking, but I, I think that. That is something that all parents, you know, this, this idea of like self-talk, all parents need to develop some type of self-talk mantra thing to, to say to ourselves, to regulate ourselves in these moments too. To, to say. I'm, and this is a, a big Dr. Becky phrase, but I, I'm doing the best I can with the resources that I have available to me right now. Right. We, we are all on this journey right now of, of trying to raise our kids while also stay regulated ourselves. And it's not something that we're doing or not doing. We're, we're continuing to, to work on this, right. So you will have moments where you will feel like a failure and, and moments where it's like, I handled that horribly. Right? And, and then that leads to the next idea of repair and the opportunity for repair. And that is always available to you. And, and the amount of times that I, that myself or even, you know, my clients could say like, right, if somebody would've just explained to me. That my own parents' dysregulation was not about me. Actually, that was theirs. Yes. It, it came out because I said a thing and then they reacted to that thing. But, but to, for a child to see that happening and not have any understanding of a parent's own challenges and obviously, you know, in an age appropriate way, but to be able to say to your child, I'm working on these things too. I'm working on staying calm. I yelled before. That was not, that was not your fault. That I yelled. And, and every parent has this available to themselves to know that you can always go back to your child. Use those words. And that's a gift to give to your child. It's a gift. You know, the parents that might struggle the most might end up having the kids that really have grown the most. I've seen it. Exactly. And, and'cause they took care of themselves. They modeled your modeling. This is an issue that I have with how I perceive gentle parenting is it seems to be very wordy, and that really cannot work for all kids. Number one, some kids really get dysregulated just by the words, and second of all, you may be sitting there going, oh my gosh, I don't know what to say. I call this refrigerator door parenting from the era when refrigerators were magnetic. Mm. Remember that? Mm. Yeah. And you'd put a piece of paper on and say, say this. Not that, say this, not that. Right, right. You know? Yes. Then you're trying to remember like that, don't worry so much. And I think that that goes back to that first, you know, that, that Dr. Spock, right? Like trust yourself a little bit more. It's not about the script. It's not at all about the script. It's about understanding yourself, understanding the things that trigger you and, and that awareness and that mental preparation for yourself is going to guide you better than any like. Magnet that you're gonna put on your fridge to remember the catch phrases, right? And the, the gift you're giving your child also is, is this, this idea that you, their, their instinct is correct. And I, I think that this is such an important opportunity for, for so many families where, and I, I think I'll just share this, I'm always hesitant, but, you know, my own personal life, my, you know. You have a spouse, we try not to fight it. Argue in front of our children, obviously. Right? Inevitably, sometimes they're gonna hear arguing. Right. I will never forget my, my own daughter hearing my husband and I fighting and then, and then asking us later, were you guys fighting before? And my husband quickly saying, no, no, of course we weren't fighting. What are you talking and the face of, but I. I see the wheels turning. I heard you guys using those tones. I heard that the intensity, the escalation, the, the whisper yelling. Right? But now we're telling her what you saw and observed is not true. So that that's, that's meddling with their self-trust and, and their ability to observe and perceive. Right. And so, obviously being the psychologist that I am, I swooped in and I said, no, honey, we were fighting. We're going to make up later when we talk about it. And some, I've heard people say, you have to make up in front of your kids. You do not have to make up in front of your kids. You should make up in front of your kids. But you can let them know that what they saw was accurate. That is okay. Right. And let them know that we know how to work it out. We will work it out. What you, you noticed before that I came home and I was in a bad mood before you were right? Right. Instead of our kids tiptoeing around us. Taking our temperature all the time. That's what creates anxiety in them. Exactly. But if we can simply say, I had a really long day at work, I know how to take care of myself. Even if you don't really know how to take care of yourself, your kids need to feel that you are in control, but that you have feelings too, and that is totally, totally fine and appropriate. Right. I'm also gonna say that I think it's important to not overshare little kids are not little adults. Absolutely. Absolutely. I agree. Do you wanna add to that or leave it there? Yeah. No. No. Meaning, meaning? I, I, I think what you're saying fully makes sense and, and I, and it, and I am not intending to, to now tell my child what my husband and I are arguing about. Right. Exactly. So I don't understand this. Yeah. Right. Picking up in front of your kids, it's not their business. Exactly. And, and that is completely appropriate to say too. Well, what were you guys fighting about? No, that's between us. That's not, that's a grownup, that's a grownup thing. But you are right that you noticed that our moods were not good. We were not in a good mood. You're totally right about that. Right? And to, to say something like. I came home, I was making dinner, then I needed to help you with your homework, and I was still thinking about something that happened at my work. That's for me to, to figure out. That is not your fault, that I answered you in that way, that you don't like when I talk. Right. My, my, my son who's entering, he's transitioning out of toddlerhood into actually being a kid, but he will even say to me, so sometimes I put him to sleep and I'm tired and I sing the song really quick, and then he says to me. Don't talk like that. And then I said, like, what? Like that way that I don't like that way that you talk, and if my tone is just a little impatient and a little bit quick, and I could easily just say in that moment, stop it. Just lay down. I know. Don't worry. It's fine. But instead, I, I like to try to say something like, yeah, you're noticing, you're noticing that. Good for you. It's incredible that they can. But then I worry about the problem of trying to be the perfect parent. I feel like the one, on the one hand, we are having parents know much more about the emotional lives of their kids and how to be sensitive to their emotions. But I also feel like we're putting so much pressure on parents. Yeah. To constantly be co-regulating and constantly, you know, monitoring and helping their children with their emotions. Yeah. And I don't, I don't, I don't think that that's realistic. Yeah. No. Or healthy. No, it's not. I mean, I mean, it's not, it's not realistic or healthy to be completely consumed by this all the time. Right. It's not for anything. And I think, you know, if we were to find the right or best middle grounds between what we referenced at the beginning, like kind of like the trust that our kids will figure this out. You know, I think of like a, like a swimming pool sometimes, right? Like a kid is learning to swim, they're gonna swim out a little bit, and you're the wall, you're the base. They're gonna come back, they're going to come back. They're going to need you, but you can't be there all the time. You can't possibly be there all the time, and you should not be there all the time. We, we can't solve our kids' problems for them, and we can't, al always, I mean, whenever I'm, I'm working with a set of parents, I say I, whenever I'm sharing with you today. Do 35% of it this week, don't even try for 90%, you're gonna burn out really quickly. It's, it's not possible. And I think that the exposure and the, you know, the availability of all of these, like parenting influencers and people that we have such immediate access to all the time, I mean, it could, it could drive you crazy, right? I, I tell people right away when I start working with them. I am a parent myself. I'm much better at advising you than I am at parenting. Right. Trust. Trust what I know. Do not think that my home looks like this all the time. Right. It's, it's life, it's real. And we, we gotta figure out a way to be kinder to ourselves. 100%. Yeah. Yes. And speaking of kinder to yourself, I kind of alluded to it before, but I always say, put your oxygen mask on first. Yes. Sometimes the best thing you can do for your child is get help for your own mental health. Totally. I mean. Own mental health or, or even if it's doing the things, finding yourself again, right? I think that so many of us, oh, that too, right? Like so many of us have become so consumed by this, that we're living and breathing our kids, right? Like, where are they all day and what class are they in right now? What's gonna be when they get home? I mean. And then to the, to the point that we, we can't, we're, we're not separate from them anymore. Right. And what are the things that, that we like to do? That we, you know, I remember the, when I started to set my kids' alarm clocks in the, in the morning, instead of me going in to wake them up because it was, it was starting to get in the way. And Heights said, and they said, but we don't like the alarm. We like when you wake us up. And I said, I know, but I can't do that anymore. And that is okay, right? It's okay to do a thing for yourself. And I know it sounds very generic and cliche, but it could, it could be simple, right? Like I enjoy a good walk in the morning and it means I'm getting back five minutes after they need to be up for school. And I trust that they will get themselves up right. Things like that. You know, going out to dinner with a friend, being social, right? Oh, I can't, my kids, right? But you can, you can do that. And, and then they say, but who's putting me to sleep tonight? Someone's going to, I promise I'm not gonna leave you high and dry, but you will be fine. Right? And, and I think that, you know, we have, we carry so much guilt because of all these things. And, and it's, it had, I, I agree. It's, it's definitely taken on. Uh, it's, it's gone to a place that I, I don't think that was intended. Yeah. And I think you mentioned influencers before and parenting. Parenting. When did it become a verb? That's what I wanna know. Parenting. It's like an Olympic sport now, right? Right. It's like a high stakes Olympic sport. Yeah. And unfortunately social media, a lot of parents are turning to social media. I think 80% for parenting advice. I was watching an influencer who has a lot of followers, I'm not gonna say, and she had. The best content, super great advice, but it was presented like, do this, not that you're gonna ruin your kids if you don't do this, or say that or say this, not that. Yes. And that's how you make the algorithm run. It has to be provocative. It has to be like that. Great and frightening. Yes. Because it's, this is, this is parent guilt on steroids now. Like, no, you can't breathe, you can't go to the bathroom, you can't do anything. And that's, it's not true. And it just, it just makes it so hard. I just, I just wanna cry for the parents nowadays. It's so hard. No. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah. Jim, this concept is a good enough parent. Yes. Yes, of course. I mean, I think that, I think he was onto something with that, right? Like it's, it's so hard when we have these pressures external or internal, which, whichever it is for the individual, but, you know, if, if we can just. Go back to this idea of knowing the things, right? Like knowing what's helpful and, and beneficial for our kids' development. Understanding the neuroscience, I, I, I think it's interesting for, for some, but, but also knowing you do not need to be perfect at all, and it, in fact, you are setting your kids up for failure if that's the model that you're going to present to them. They need to see that we can make mistakes too. It's, it's really important. Right. I mean, it's like ironic I mentioned before that when you mess up right, you lose it, and then you do that repair. You say, I, I made, I lost my temper. You are actually helping them build resilience as you get better, more than any words. I, I, I totally agree. Oh, speaking of resilience, we mentioned before about how anxious kids and parents are nowadays, and I think we're gonna just leave it at that and not even talk about it. It's, that's a different topic. You, it really is. You it, yeah. And there's a spectrum from just anxiety to anxiety disorder. And let me tell you, as a pediatrician, we're seeing sadly, more and more people, both parents and kids falling into that. And that's why it's even harder to be a parent when you're dealing with your own mental health versus, or you know, so many other struggles people are having. The most important thing we can say is you as a model for your child with your struggles is the best way to help your child. Totally. Totally. Other than any specific, yeah, any specific thing. I'm with you. So that's one way to build resilience, because I think we'd have mentally healthier kids overall if we could work on resilience as a top priority. So do you have any other ways to help build resilience? Yeah, and parents and kids. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For our kids, I, I assume, but right. For, for us. Well, maybe the parents do. I don't think you can do one without the other Totally. I would say, you know, in a, from, in a more general way, I, I think that a lot of us as parents have a hard time watching our kids struggle with, with anything, whether it's academically, socially, athletics, right? Like what, whatever, whatever that thing is, and whatever the reason is for, for each individual, right? We, we see our kids with a challenge and having a hard time with that challenge, and we feel like we need to do something to make it easier or more tolerable for them. I think that the minute you notice that you are doing that, you, you need to like visualize a huge stop sign, right? And, and pause yourself. Because resilience does not exist without challenge. There there's no, you cannot be resilient if you haven't done something hard or experienced something hard. No one's born resilient, right? So when our kids have opportunities to muscle through something or. Fail some at something. Make a mistake. I, I, we, we really need to practice building tolerance, our own tolerance as parents to just be present with them through that, right? So if they come home with homework that they're just not really getting right, like they, the, you know, they're not figuring out the answer, that's not an invitation for you to sit there for three hours with Google and chat GPT and try to do it with them, that that might mean that they leave it blank. And, and see what happens the next day. It might mean that they sit there and, and do the best they can, and there might be tears involved and, and that is all okay, because in these moments, I, I look at these moments as, this feels really hard, but there is something happening right now by me not having my child escape this whole situation. Right? I could easily do the math problem for her and tell her what the answer is, but what, what it, what is that? How, how is that actually going to help her in the long run? Right? Your child comes home and had a fight with a friend. I could tell her what to say tomorrow I could call the mother, right? There's so many things your child didn't get put into the class that, that they wanted to be, and they requested these friends, they didn't get those requests. How many times do we call the school and ask for a class switch? Right? That is not helping our kid, that is showing our kids. You actually, I don't think you can do it either. I also don't think you could handle making new friends this year. You need to be with that best friend that you've been with every single year, and I'm gonna make it that you get back with her because you can't survive without her. So when we, we, and, and this is of, this is said with judgment, right? Like our, our intentions are good. We're not doing these things because we're trying to make life easier for our kids, you know? But it's, we're misguided. I think in these moments, we think we're helping them and really we're, we're actually giving them this nonverbal message that I also don't think you can do it. I also don't think you'll, you'll survive. This thing is really so, so terrible. Oh, bad. We have to fix it rather than tolerate it. Fix it. Right. Because, because you might not get through it. You might not. And, and really we wanna, like, going back to the beginning. The validation is important, right? Like I, again, I I this example of the classes just because there's always uproar when the classes come out and it's cool. So I don't know that that's changed or they didn't get the right teacher. Exactly. So you can of course say to your child like, wow, you were really hoping to be with, with Max. Right? Like, you really wanted to be with him. You guys have so much fun together. I know, I, I, I hear you. I get it. I wonder who else is gonna be in your class this year though? I wonder, like if we could, you know, it's, you can validate the experience that's, that's not accommodating it. It's, it's okay to say that and, and sit with that and not make the change. Right. And not say, I'm calling the school. This is crazy. How could they do this to you? Right. You, you're not with him. You're allowed to be upset. I know you can do this. Right? You're validating and you're, and you're not giving, like rea it's not reassurance of, of. You're gonna make new friends and it's all, you can say those things, but really the idea is, I believe in you. I believe in you. Right. You might not have that. You can do hard things. You can do hard things. Exactly. Right. Right. And that's where resilience comes. Right. And your own resilience.'cause I can tell you as a parent, sometimes the hardest thing is to sit with your child's hard feelings and do nothing. You, you think you're doing nothing. That's the thing. You're not, you are, you're doing the big thing. You're doing a huge awkward, it's staying like, like your, your presence Yeah. In these moments is, yeah. It trumps everything. Again, we're we're pulled to like, take action, but your presence is action. You being there is action. You're, you're showing your child. This is a safe feeling because in life, life is full of appointments, it's full of challenges. So right now you didn't get the teacher you wanted, but maybe in 15 years it's, you're not, you didn't get the job you wanted, you didn't get that promotion. You didn't get into your dream college, right? They have to be able to get through these things. They have to recognize that this feeling is something they can handle. So it's start you. You're giving them a blueprint now and you're showing them you can't handle this. And like you said, the hardest, hardest part, I think harder than them sitting with that is, is us sitting with it. Yes. And watching them. Yes. Have to do it. Yes. I think we have to be kind to ourselves. You know? I don't think there's enough said. I think this is again, the myth of the perfect parenting ignores our humanity, our our, wherever we're sitting at that moment. You know, I've, there's been times when it's just too stressful for me to be able to hold that. I don't know what you advise that I'm asking you. I really wanna know what you think. Have a perfect answer. I'm going to start with that. But again, I think that there's, there's. So much strength in even saying what you just said, right? Like to be able to admit that to yourself too. You're not, you're not shutting out the world, you're not running away from your family. Right. But, but you saying like, today's not my day. Right? If, if we're lucky enough to have support. Nearby. There is nothing wrong with calling and help, right? It is okay to say, I I need a break today. I need a break for this hour. Right? Maybe if you have a partner, if you have a grandparent close by, if you need to get a babysitter for a little bit, if you're, if you're able to do that right, like that is fine. You, you need the oxygen, your own oxygen mask first, and it is, it is important to acknowledge that you are struggling. If you are right. Right. Because what you don't wanna do is what they may have done back in other people's feelings, not ours, where they would just say, it's no big deal either being toxically positive, it's gonna be great, it's gonna be awesome. Or that's not a big deal. Right? Because neither of those are helpful. And really what you're doing is if you're going to. Either push it down as it's not a big deal or completely shut down on the, on the opposite end. Both. Both unhelpful and and unproductive. Right? But back to the modeling, right? Like being able to say to your, your child, I am having a hard time today. This is not because of you, this is because'cause I'm having a hard time with this. I know how to take care of myself today. Taking care of myself means grandma's coming over. I'm going to the gym for a little bit or clearly. I, I like to exercise. I'm getting a coffee. I like coffee also. Whatever I, I'm going to take a nap, right? I'm gonna take a nap now. That's what I need to do. I'm gonna see you in a little bit. I mean, there does need to be this balance of, your kids need to know that you're still there, sturdy parent, and, and these are things you do to take, you're, you're modeling self-care for them. I mean, that's a trigger word for some people also, but I, I'm glad you're talking about outsourcing and getting help. From whether it's relatives or also even people from the school or volunteers or hired people, because one of the ideas behind this podcast is to help build a village for yourself that you really, one of the problems with perfect parenting is the expectation is it's all on the parent's head. Yeah. Right off in the mother. Right. Right. Yes. That could be another episode too. And that's, that's not realistic, right? That's not realistic. You're trying, say you, you try really hard for your mental health, but you're having a really hard day. You're a single parent. You're some other crisis is going on, and then you're supposed to be that sturdy parent, but you are fragile yourself. Right, right, right. I think that, you know, they, they had it right thousands of years ago in the villages. I mean, it takes a village, right? Like, it, it's, it's so important to have. Maybe just a handful. Right? Like, like a, a count on your hand. Who are my people? Who are the people I can turn to? Whether it's a professional, whether it's a, a friend and a a, a grandparent. Some people that you can turn to in the, in these moments, you're, you're not alone. You, you don't have to do it alone. This is how much more so for our neurodivergent kids, which are I think like one outta five kids nowadays. Mm-hmm. And I think that adhd, autism to Totally. And that, that can be incredibly isolating if you feel like you're, you are the only one. Right. And there are so many supports, and I don't, I don't mean like supports specifically for the child, but supports for the parents, for, for parents of, of neurodivergent kids. Right. Just even Listservs, networks connecting with other parents. It's so, so, so important to be able to identify with others who have similar challenges to, to just, if nothing else, to show you that you're not, you're not alone. I will say that that's a double-edged sword. Okay. Okay. Go Brett.'cause someone once said that parenting children with special needs is just like parenting. Typical kids only much more, more intense, more frequent, right? More. And I, I think that parents can help other parents, but they can also say things that are hurtful or unhelpful or put more pressure on the parent, you know, back to being the perfect parent. Parents of kids with special needs have the same concerns about being that perfect parent, right. Right. So I think there's also the role of professionals, especially a parenting coach. So I'm gonna give you a chance to tell us how a parenting coach can help. I've given you a plug. Free you, it, it, you know, I'm, I'm a, I'm a clinical psychologist. That was my training and I worked at first with many children, directly with children. I, I see adults, I see teens for anxiety, for depression. I would say midway through my, my career in my private practice after graduate school, I, I work at as a school psychologist also, but I shifted after being influenced by Dr. Becky and, and doing some training under her. And I, my favorite thing to do in my private practice is work directly with parents doing parent coaching. And I do find that, especially with younger children, although I've, I've worked with parents with teenagers too, that. It is sometimes more effective than just working directly with, with the child because like I said before, I, I really do value and prioritize the connection between parent and child, and I think that's one of the most impactful avenues for, for change. Um, so many things happen just in that dynamic, and so when I work with parents, what I, what I usually do is we'll do a couple of weeks at the beginning of just a lot of psychoeducation, some of the things that you and I just referenced today, just understanding attachment theory, understanding some of the, some of the neuroscience co-regulation, and then tailoring it obviously to, to whatever specific challenges that family is dealing with, whether it's a child with anxiety with. Regulation, aggression, you know, whatever, whatever it is. But that's, it's one of my favorite things to do. That's awesome. How many sessions do you usually have for parent coaching? Like the million dollar question? I always get asked that, how, how long will this take exactly. I find that people are usually in a rush to, to, to see change. Right. Which un understandably, I don't usually put a number on it. What I typically say is it, you know, like I said, the first. Three to four weeks we'll spend with, with foundational concepts, and then the following three to four weeks will be more specific and tailored to, to their family. And then I have had families who stay with me for, for the long term. If they're, if they're able to, obviously sometimes we'll titrate to every other week, then it'll become a once a month as more of a check-in. It's really what you're looking to, to get out of it. I, I think some have taken on different, you know, have gone, gone down paths we didn't expect where, where sometimes it does feel like a parent's own therapy, but I think it does. And sometimes I'll, I'll work with parents and, you know, they'll be in their own therapy. So at least I know that that's outside. But I've, I've had it where it, it will sometimes feel like we're getting into it even in the session because something that came up over the week with their kid really did hit, hit, hit a nerve with them and that. Understanding is where the change then, then happened next between them and their child. So I would say three months around could be, you know, sort of like the, the minimum I guess I would say. But, but people do stay for longer if they feel they, they, they're benefiting and they're able to, obviously it's a, it is a luxury sometimes. Right. Are you building in though that they should become independent of you like. In that Yes. Kind of empowering sense. Yes, absolutely. Right. The idea is not that they should stay, when I say stay, it's, it's not weekly anymore at a certain point. Right. Staying means that it becomes monthly and then, and then it can become as needed for like a boost, a booster type of thing. This came up. Can we just have a refresher? I, I, I have people who contact me like three years later. Can we just meet for one or two times to just run through something? But yes, it's definitely the idea is that. These are skills that can be applied to any age and any situation basically. Right. If you understand work with, do you work the concepts? Mm-hmm. Do, do you work with parents of neurodivergent kids as well? I work with parents of kids with a DHD, not with autism. Why is that? I'm just curious. I just don't think I'm as well trained to be perfectly honest. Okay. It's, it's not, um, yeah. Yeah. That's fair. That's fair. Yeah. Do you find that. Dr. Becky or Gentle Parenting or whatever in its ideal form, do you find that that works equally well for kids with A DHD? I do think that in conjunction with other things, it is extremely valuable, but I think that a child with A DHD needs to be, I'm gonna say something maybe a little controversial. I. I am pro medication for, for cases of A DHD and in conjunction with, with a good psychiatrist. And I think that parent management, the, the research has shown that it's incredibly effective, but I do think that the child themselves need to have eyes on them too directly. Right. But the medication wears off at home and is often not used at home. And so the parenting becomes the way of dealing with it. And I'm really wondering because this is more controversial. Okay. My personal take, hot take is that it's not as good because it does seem to evolve a lot of talking. Right. So I'm pushing you here. No, no. I, I I'm here for it. I, okay. I actually should have said this at the beginning. It's funny. I don't even think that this parenting approach is gentle. That's, that's why, that's why I don't like this name. I, I don't actually ever say I, I subscribe to Gentle Parenting because. Is not a gentle approach. And I, and I agree with you. I think that knowing you have to know your child and, and I love working with parents and, and part of the empowering piece is you will always know your child better than I'm going to know your child. But, but what I, what I know is, Ty, the more typical thing that, let's say a child with a DHD, like you said, they need very clear structured firm. Predictable boundaries. Right? So no, for, for them it wouldn't be this like, let's sit down and have this long, drawn out conversation. These are the things that come over time of me getting to know the child through the parents, but using what I do know about A DHD. Then we tailor the approach. It's not, it's, but I do think that a child with a DHD with the impulsivity, with focusing difficulties, right? They're, they're at risk for internalizing. Some of the feedback that they're likely getting in the world around them. And so what I like to help parents specifically in this area is to help them instill the goodness in, in their child again. So really the truth is when I work with parents, I, I don't really start with boundary setting right away. Like a lot of the work that we do at the beginning is about strengthening the relationship. That's not through sitting and talking, it's, it's through the kid's world. It's through playing. It's through letting the child lead, and again, not in a permissive parenting way, but lead so that you're stepping into their world and they feel important and, and seen by you and connected with you. And so from there, when I, when that foundation is in place, do we move into the boundary setting? And specifically for a child with a DHD, I think that naming feelings is important, but. Using scripts that make sense for that child is the goal. I love that. I didn't even really think about that. And it's really true that they're more vulnerable to have, you know, lower self-esteem already from everybody else talking to them. Right. And uh, you really do have to focus in the right way. What I was trying to say though is that I see this, whatever you call it, as, or at least I see parents using a lot of words. Maybe that's not your approach, if not. Okay. Maybe that's the mistake that I'm making. Maybe you'll get another person to talk to, speak to that, but no, I, I, I don't, I don't recommend that. Again, I think age of the child is, is part of it. I think that knowing the skillset and, and the strengths and challenges of the child is part of it too. There are some kids who are able to engage in, in the back and forth and, and the wordiness or whatever you wanna call it. But no, I don't, I don't typically advise in that way. I did another interview with an A DHD coach and he was specifically saying that all of those words creates more noise. Yes. And it's not even that they can't engage in it, it's that it actually activates them to have worse behavior. It actually is like fuel to the fire. Yeah, I could understand that. Yeah. So that's why I was pushing that. And I'm wondering if you have parents come in and you see that they have that style and you say, Hey, this is not working all the time. Well, last time. Yes. Yes. I I I am often saying to parents, it's too much talking. A hundred percent. Okay, good. Yes. Yes. A lot of times, I, I will say to, I'm, I'm thinking of a, you know, a few families that I work with, with kids with severe DHD and, and explaining to them that when, when I'm advising that you go walk into their room and, and talk with them, it, it's not to talk about their behavior to talk about. What they're reading or what video game they were playing. Like, we're looking to connect. We're, we're not looking to over talk the negative behaviors and, and, you know, pick those apart. Right? Like even when, you know, a lot of times I work with parents with, with like in the, the toddler age group also, and you know, you, they are, you, you, you're like right there. You have this opportunity to like get in at, you know, at the ground level of like, this is, you know, dysregulation is happening and how can we help them develop and. Like I, I will often tell parents, you know, there needs to be some closure to the tantrum, let's say. Right? But it's not a wordy, lengthy, lengthy closure. What you're, what you're really trying to do is link together for the child that I had an internal physiological experience that came out of me as the tantrum. And they need to connect those things because feeling and action are very collapsed for kids, right? So. What that would look like is the parent simply saying, once the child's come, you wanted the lollipop so badly, you started screaming and throwing, and then I had to hold you really tight to keep you safe. It's okay to want the lollipop. I I can't let you throw the end and that, and that's, that's, you know, a, a reflection or, or whatever you wanna call it. But that, that's what I, what I like to do just to, just to. C make it a coherent narrative for the child that otherwise it's, it's overwhelming. It's confusing what just happened to me and now I'm exhausted because I was thrashing on the floor and my mom had to hold me down. Right. It's reassuring, but it's not excessively wordy back and forth. No. And and the child is required to do nothing in this moment, by the way, also. Right. And that, that's not when they're tantruming. No, it's after. Once they're right. Thank you. Do not, do not engage the no talking during a tantrum. I say that all the time. It's the radioactive that is not the time to have these conversations. Okay. I I, I knew that we were not gonna have more time. I'm, I think I'm done. I know, I know. We're gonna have to do a different, a different topic. I wanna go into. Anxiety in parents and children as a whole separate, more thorough piece with you. Got it. But I wanna thank you so, so much. I'm gonna give you one more chance to give your contact information just in case people only heard the answer. Okay. Thank you. Yes. My email is Alana Dumont cyd. That's E-L-A-N-A-D-U-M-O-N-T-P-S-Y d@gmail.com. Uh, dr alana dumont.com is my website. Dr. Like you said before, it's good you pointed that out. Yes, and this is for next time. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you for listening to Kids Matter. Raising Healthy, happy Children Takes a village, and I'm grateful you are part of ours. If today's conversation resonated with you, please share this episode with another parent, grandparent, teacher, or anyone who cares about kids. Together we can build a supportive community our children deserve. I'd love to hear from you. Share your thoughts, questions, or suggestions for future topics at Kids Matter podcast@gmail.com. With no explanation for your voice truly matters. Until next time, keep advocating for the children in your life because kids really do matter. They are our future. I'm Dr. Elisa Minkin and this has been Kids Matter. Please note that while I am a pediatrician, I am not your child's ped. This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute medical. For any medical concerns or decisions. Reach out to your child's healthcare professional.