Kids Matter!

It Doesn't Have To Be This Hard: ADHD Coaching with Mike McLeod

• Alisa Minkin

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Michael McLeod, M.A.

In this episode, Mike Mcleod and I talk about ADHD, parenting styles, and the role of  ADHD coaching. In 2016, Michael created the Internal Skills Executive Function Strengthening Model, and GrowNOW ADHD was born.

 

His mission: improve quality of life for youth and families facing ADHD and executive function challenges.

 

Mike has presented this model to audiences nationwide and internationally, providing specialized support in ADHD, Executive Functioning, Social Executive Functioning, and Parent Coaching.

With more than 20 years of experience, a Master’s degree from Lehman College, and collaborations with leading doctors, neuropsychologists, and nonprofits, Mike blends deep expertise with a practical, strength-based model that gets results.

 

Co-Host of the ADHD Parenting Podcast

Winner


Best Executive Function Coaching Service Award


Winner


Developmental Service Hero Award – Main Line Parent


Award


Winning Keynote Speaker and School Trainer


I am here today with  Michael McLeod, M.A., co-host of the ADHD Parenting Podcast, one of my new favorite parenting podcasts.

With over 20 years of experience, Michael is the creator of the innovative Internal Skills Executive Function Strengthening Model and the founder of GrowNOW ADHD.

His mission is to improve the quality of life for youth and families navigating ADHD and executive function challenges.

An award-winning keynote speaker and trainer, Mike blends deep expertise—backed by a Master's degree and collaborations with leading doctors and neuropsychologists—with a practical, strength-based approach that truly delivers results.

 

https://www.grownowadhd.com/

Welcome to Kids Matter. I'm Dr. Elisa Minkin. As a pediatrician, mom and grandma, I understand how challenging it can be to help our kids grow into their best selves. We are so much more powerful together. Here I will be sharing the knowledge and wisdom of a wide range of people who understand and care deeply about children. I'm hoping for your input as well because kids really do matter. They are our future.

Alisa Minkin:

I'm here today with Michael McLeod, ma co-host of the A DHD Parenting Podcast, one of my new FA favorite parenting podcasts. been recommending it all over the place lately. With over 20, my pleasure. With over 20 years of experience, Michael was the creator of the innovative internal skills Executive function Strengthening model. I didn't put that on my list of things to talk about, but we must, the founder of Grow Now, A DHD, his mission is to improve the quality of. For youth and families navigating A DHD and executive function challenges as an award-winning keynote speaker and trainer, Mike blends deep expertise backed by a master's degree, and collaborations with leading doctors and neuropsychologists with a practical strength-based approach that truly delivers results. I'm gonna say one more thing that's not there. Also, that you deliver it in a relatively short period of time, meaning to empower the parents and fade yourself out as the helpers,

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Absolutely. Yep.

Alisa Minkin:

So thank you so much for joining me.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Alisa Minkin:

I'm so excited. Your approach to A DHD and parenting is something that really resonated with me as a pediatrician and a mom. And a mom of an autistic adult, and autism and A DHD overlap. I love that it's evidence-based. was not so aware of the role of parent coaching for whatever reason. I don't think in general we refer enough to parent coaching in general before finding your podcast, and I really am excited to share your approach with my listeners. I wanna start with the definition because I think it's always a good idea. What is DHD and how is it diagnosed?

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Of course. Yeah. So so A-A-D-H-D is really one of the most misunderstood diagnostic labels placed on kids. And so many young adults and parents and moms are now getting diagnosed later in life. And we're just seeing absolute rises in this idea of A DHD in terms of it being a diagnostic label and also it being a. Trending topic on social media. A DHD is one of those things that will always sort of have that that idea behind it of, oh, everyone's a little A DHD and especially now with, you know, screens and, you know, this, this attention pandemic we're currently having it's a real mess. So. People tend to associate themselves with A DHD diagnosed officially or not. So A DHD in its original term is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. The term A DD is no longer used. There's A DHD inattentive, A DHD, hyperactive, and A DHD combined. But as individuals like Dr. Russell Barkley, George McCloskey, Sarah Ward all the great individuals in this field will highlight that. A DHD really is not in attention disorder. And this heavy focus on attention is what causes these kids to be labeled as lazy. Disinterested, non-compliant. All of these, you know, just a little bit more discipline, a little bit more this, a little bit more that, and they'll be okay. Or get'em a cup of coffee, they'll be fine. But that's really not what it is. A DHD is a true neurodiverse brain individuals with a DHD. Their brain is. Different from the neurotypical population of the same age and same gender. It is a developmental delay of overall, you know, the brain's networks and especially the prefrontal cortex and the frontal lobe. So A DHD is. Executive functioning developmental disorder. And that is the term that Dr. Russell Barkley, who's now retired, and many of the great individuals in this field are trying to change the name of A DHD to EFDD.'cause A DHD is the preeminent disorder of executive functioning.

Alisa Minkin:

A great summary, and I liked that you said in one of your podcasts that it's not that they can't pay attention, it's that they can't pay attention to what doesn't interest them. And I hear all the time as a pediatrician, they pay attention great to their video games.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Correct, and that's, and that's the big thing that parents need to understand and why parent coaching is such a huge aspect of this is in today's world, you really cannot discuss A DHD without also discussing a. Incredibly debilitating and really, really life suffering, screen addiction. So even our neurotypical population is suffering from all the screens out there and all the horrible things like ed tech and personal laptops at school and video games and online, the internet screens taking over. It's really affecting human beings in general, but it is our neurodiverse population that are, that are the biggest victims of this heavy push of big tech onto screens.

Alisa Minkin:

I, I just wanna say, first of all, and this is like picky even point, but in a way it's not, it's neuro, you mean neurodivergent and not neurodiverse? Because neurodiversity right means we have all kinds of brains.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

And neurodivergent, you're saying it's different from the typical, I'm just gonna point that out because

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yeah, it's great. Yeah, that, that's a, that's a great thing to point out. Thank.

Alisa Minkin:

My pleasure. I interviewed an expert in autism and we talked a lot about neurodiversity versus neurodivergence, and the reason I'm pointing that also, hopefully we'll get to it later, is the word neurodivergence implies also a certain pathology or functional issue. You can be different without being having a functional issue.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Okay.

Alisa Minkin:

about a DHD or executive function we're talking about a functional problem.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Correct.

Alisa Minkin:

Okay. So that's one thing I wanted to say. Also want to talk about how it's diagnosed.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Sure. Yeah. So, so it, so we do not do the diagnosing at gr now, we are not those licensed physicians but they should be diagnosed by licensed professionals individuals that perform those in-depth evaluations. And they're typically diagnosed through various checklists. Like, for example, like the brief, the behavior rating, inventory of executive functioning. The McCloskey scales, Dr. Barkley sometimes there'll be like a writing analysis or a reading analysis because reading comprehension and written expression are the two academic tasks that require the most executive functions. And the best evaluations that I see that come across my desk are the ones that include informal observations, especially in the three separate. Areas. So an observation at school, an observation at home, and an observation socially as well, to get that informal data of how they are behaving, how they're acting, how their executive functions are in those three separate zones, home, academic and social.

Alisa Minkin:

So who does that evaluation?

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Psychiatrists, psychologists neuropsychs true licensed professionals. Is that correct?

Alisa Minkin:

I wonder how many kids today are getting diagnosed by others without that particular lens.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

You need part, you need a specific license to be able to diagnose, correct.

Alisa Minkin:

Pediatricians, nurse practitioners, PAs, all of them who are primary care clinicians, I think are being tasked with diagnosis and treatment of A DHD now because all those people that you mentioned tend to not take insurance and cost a lot of money.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Correct. Yes. So that's a great question. I, I, I think insurance is a huge part of it. And when you are using insurance, who truly is doing the diagnostics, and obviously we've seen a huge increase in A DHD diagnoses over the past couple of years, so I would love to, you know, hear your opinion on that. The huge increase in A DHD diagnosis, what are your thoughts on that over the past five, 10 years?

Alisa Minkin:

A lot better. of all, you mentioned screens and I, that was the other thing I was gonna. Talk about is the

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Sure.

Alisa Minkin:

is an entirely different topic. And you, on your podcast the a DH ADHD parenting podcast

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yep.

Alisa Minkin:

interview, someone fantastic. That I want to copy and use too at some point. I dunno if you wanna say her name and I can go look at that episode if they wanna go down that particular

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Was it, was it the doctor in Canada? The female doctor in Canada? I believe.

Alisa Minkin:

the screen

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

The screen time consultant?

Alisa Minkin:

Yeah, that's the one I heard. I think we've done it more than once'cause it's such an important

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yes, yes. She's fantastic. Yeah. She's the one that focuses on mostly ed tech and the laptops at schools.

Alisa Minkin:

Screens are everywhere. It's a problem.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yes. Yes it is. Yep.

Alisa Minkin:

I think it's, in a way, it's a chicken and an egg problem because neurodivergent kids are more prone toco addiction than

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yep.

Alisa Minkin:

kids.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Correct.

Alisa Minkin:

It's so much more engaging

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

I.

Alisa Minkin:

so much harder to remove them from it. So that's one problem. I think that the, these screens that we have everywhere are pushing the spectrum over. I think that's one of the reasons, but I think that because of the insurance issue, because we are not reimbursing mental and behavioral health like we are physical health, we are having this pushed on very time starved primary care clinicians. They cannot do that. They cannot do those kind of testing. All they can do is a Vanderbilt, basically, which is a parent and teacher questionnaire at the very minimum you should be doing with Vanderbilt. I don't know if it's, if it's not being done. So you have the Vanderbilts are the parent and teacher questionnaires, and they must, at minimum be done. Is that always happening? I don't know, but it certainly should be. And the problem is with A-D-H-D-I, I do think it's easily over-diagnosed.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yes,

Alisa Minkin:

Oh, easily. And that's because there's no marker

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

I.

Alisa Minkin:

Now, there is also what I think is over-testing or inappropriate testing A DHD costly testing. I've seen you talk about this as well. You do not need to have a complete neuropsych eval to diagnose A DHD.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Correct.

Alisa Minkin:

And you do not necessarily need a brain MRI or an A EG. And we are not here to give medical advice. This does not constitute medical advice. But I think I've been told, oh, you can't diagnose A DHD as a pediatrician. You need to send to a neurologist, and then we'll send to a neurologist and they will do all these tests across the board. They're not necessary, but sometimes they are. And this is what I'm very concerned about. Is missing diagnoses that can occur along with A DHD, like sleep apnea, absence, seizures, which is a form of seizure disorder, all kinds of things. Emotional anxiety, depression, again, they can occur with or they can occur separately, and the only way to figure those out is time and observation would be amazing.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yes,

Alisa Minkin:

more for this. I don't have a solution

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

correct.

Alisa Minkin:

tell parents, you're your child's best advocate. Don't accept things just because someone said so.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yeah. And in many ways it's almost become a little TA little bit taboo to say it's being overdiagnosed. It's sort of the politically correct thing now to say, oh, we've been under diagnosing for so long. Now we're just more aware of it. But you know, we do have to be very honest with ourselves. That with the rise of screens, we have this, you know, attention is the currency issue. You know, it's all about attention now and what's stealing your attention. And you know, a lot of adults are screen addicted, which makes them feel bad, which makes them then. Be able to go through their cognitive distortions to allow their kid then to be screen addicted. And there's all the lies about it being a social tool and all of the marketing about it. You know, helping kids be safe, smart, and social. And that's all nonsense. But, you know, I, I've spoken to a lot of really powerful, successful doctors, neuropsychs. That won't even do an A DHD evaluation until the child or the young adult has gone through a full three month screen detox. Like I'm not even going to evaluate you until you have not been on screens for three months.

Alisa Minkin:

I think that's a little harsh because that's a setup for failure. It means all those kids are gonna just sit there not getting diagnosed.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yeah, well, well, well, those are obviously private evaluations. That's not through, that's not through insurance. So they have a waiting list anyway, so they're, I think, I think it's sort of saying you know, while you're on the waiting list, go through a screen detox. And that's sort of what they're choosing to do is, you know, if they want to get a real evaluation done, they want the brain detox from screens.

Alisa Minkin:

I wanna take a minute to be kind to parents here.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Of course,

Alisa Minkin:

This is an attention economy in general.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

yes,

Alisa Minkin:

are, and it's a difficult economy. Parents are working hard. Most parents are both working even if they're not I was home raising my kids for part of my parenting. And it's the hardest job. It is the

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

correct.

Alisa Minkin:

job. And we, it's, we're often very isolated and we're asked to be

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

I.

Alisa Minkin:

doing this independently by ourselves. I have belief that we should really be interdependent, we should be helping each other. And that's not the way it is for a lot of parents. They feel on their own. So we need to be nice to parents, which is why I made that horrible thing when we talked about screen tough. It's nice in theory. I don't know how realistic it is. For parents. I think trying to limit it as much as possible, start it as late as possible, give the phones as late as possible. Australia has a ban now,

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yep. On social media. Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

And

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yep. Yeah, well, well, so many kids now are already trying to work around it, which is further proof that those things are a drug. But, you know, overall you know, it's quite rare to see governments doing things in the best interest of kids, not in the best interest of corporations and money. So, you know, right now we, I, I've seen countless videos of kids pleading, give me the social media back, give me the social media back. But you know, if they stick to it, you know, give it a month or two, I think you're gonna start seeing a lot of videos of kids playing outside riding bikes, being on the playground, being kids again. So I applaud Australia for doing the social media ban.

Alisa Minkin:

We should be listening to Jonathan Ha here too, right?

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yes, exactly. Jonathan, John, Jon, Jonathan Height's. Amazing, big fan of him. Yeah, I, I've, I've had the privilege of speaking to him a few times. I've, I've worked closely with his his author friend, Catherine Price, who they wrote The Amazing Generation Together. So yeah. You know things have, things have sadly only gotten worse since the anxious generation has come out.

Alisa Minkin:

and COVID. I think it's before COVID, after COVID. It's a disaster.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yes, it is.

Alisa Minkin:

But I also believe, and maybe this is rose colored glasses, but I also believe, and this is what Jonathan, is it pronounced Height? Okay. Jonathan Height's idea. He talks about grassroots. I don't think we have to feel, we have to wait for the experts or the government or the corporations to help us here. I believe in grassroots, and I believe that, I think we can direct the algorithm by what we're interested in. Like it's, we're buying this.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Correct. Yes. Yes.

Alisa Minkin:

to.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

yes. America is never going to do what Australia did ever. That's never going to happen. Australia will America will never ban something that is so profitable and, and supports big corporations, so that's not going to happen. So parents out there should never rely on the government. To assist with social media and things like that. It's, it's going to take grassroots and there's incredible roots. Like, you know, the unplugged groups, the wait until eighth. It really takes,'cause one of the biggest things of why parents are getting their kids' phones or Fortnite, Roblox, Minecraft, all these things is because they're falling, they're being duped by the marketing that these are social tools and your kid needs Snapchat. To have friends. Your kid needs Minecraft and Roblox and Fortnite and the newest iPhone in order to be socially accepted. And that's, that's the, the best kind of marketing. What's the best way to sell a product? It's through fear. If you don't buy these things for your kid, you're giving them a disadvantage when in reality, if they don't have it. They're at an advantage'cause their life is now, now not revolved around this technology. So it really takes everyone, so like parents need to realize like, Hey, your child might not have a DHD. They might not have those needs. They might be developmentally ready to have a phone and still have a balance between the phone and a other things. But when you buy your kid that phone, you're fueling the argument for Johnny down the street to say, you are the worst parents ever. Everyone else has it except for me. So, you know, we're all really in this together. In these, yeah, in these huge corporations going against kids. I.

Alisa Minkin:

I feel bad because I'm, so far, I'm calling this talk. It doesn't have to be that hard and that is, it's really hard right now. But the reason I chose that, and this is a pivot, reason I chose that is because I think that there are things that we do, and some of this is from the social media parenting advice. I know you talk about that we're making it harder for ourselves and we don't have to. And so I wanna pivot to your. Approach as a parent, A DHD coach, and let talk about that please.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

That's exactly it, and that's really the most evidence-based practice for A DHD and executive functioning is parent training. Because A DHD is a performance disorder at the point of performance, this whole idea that your child can go to a therapist office and talk to a therapist through talk therapy or counseling. Go to a therapist, go to a counselor, go to their office or log onto an hour, zoom, then an hour later be, you know, not wanna be on their phone less, or wanna argue less, or wanna negotiate less, it's not going to happen. You need to empower the parent to use evidence-based strategies. On what's best for this child. When you have an A DHD child, it doesn't come with a playbook on how to parent this child. You can't use your natural parenting instincts because you now have a child whose brain is hardwired towards instant gratification and they get dopamine. They get stimulation through screens and conflict. So when you have an A DHD child, their brain feels better when it hears. No, don't do that. Then instead of hearing good job. So their brain gets stimulated by negative attention, and that's very, very hard for parents. So parent training is crucial, you know, having a child with a DHD, it's not one of those things that you can just delegate onto a professional, like getting your lawn mowed or getting your house cleaned and hiring people to take care of these small things. You can't just say, oh, I have him in therapy. Oh, I have him in counseling. It's you, the parent that has to be willing to grow and learn and try hard things and get out of your comfort zone and be comfortable being the bad guy sometimes and be comfortable having boundaries and having limits and being sort of that strong, but loving and firm authoritative parent and learning strategies around that. So A DHD is not about attention. It's a performance disorder. At the point of performance, they are time blind. They're not gonna take information they learned earlier from a, from a clinician or a psychologist or whatever it is, and then use it in the natural environment of the home. And it's the home or the majority of A DHD symptoms are seen. For decades, we thought it was just this school-based disorder and taking notes and getting good grades and all of those things. It's actually the home and the parents. See the worst of A DHD behaviors. So that's the foundation of the Grown. Now model of internal skills is empowering parents, so this can be a very short process for them. Give them the tools so we are no longer needed. You now have the tools of you know how to raise this child. You understand the. The all, all the ins and outs of raising this child? No, no more sending them to all these different therapies and all these different counsel counseling. Use the free time to get'em in karate and sports and clubs and activities and get'em involved in his community, out moving out of the house, and you have the tools to deal with the issues when they come.

Alisa Minkin:

Great. That's really great. But it sounds harder, and again, I said it doesn't need to be that hard. And doesn't that sound like it's making the parents work harder?

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

It might sound that way, but it is not. It's actually teaching the parents to do less and be less involved. So we talk a lot about. You know, increasing supports at school and increasing consequences At school, we coach parents on keeping home and school separate. So many A DHD parents have taken off their parent hat and now they're the school secretary and the homework secretary, and they have to sit with the child and watch them a. Open their Google classroom and they get so much anxiety and it's a three hour fight every single day, over 15 minutes of homework. So really a DHD parenting is ensuring that you have your own identity and you have your own life outside of your kids. Because when you have a DHD, you get a little. Too involved. You unintentionally become a helicopter parent. You unintentionally become a permissive parent to avoid conflict. So it's really teaching parents to get their lives back, get their identity back, and fade back so your kid can step up and experience life more. It's about getting your kid out of the house involved in, in so many different things. Have other adults in their lives to hold them accountable and to work with them and teach them and those sorts of things. So it's not the mom, it's not the parents. Putting everything on their shoulders. So the feedback we get from our parent training is that it helped the parent, especially if they have a DHD themselves, we know it's hereditary. It helped the parent with their own lives, their own self-worth, their own their own independence, their own quality of life. It helped them get their lives back.

Alisa Minkin:

I love that and I'm gonna just accentuate that concept of outside activities, meaning you can delegate the homework

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Oh yeah. You have to, you and, and, and many times you have to.

Alisa Minkin:

Right. And it doesn't have to be an A DH ADHD expert. It could be a kid.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Could be. It could be a college student, could be a college student, could be high schooler, could be anybody. But that's one of the number one rules in A DHD parent coaching is stop doing homework with your child because they're always going to see you as mom. They're not gonna see you as a school employee. And having mom there, the A DHD brain responds best to structure. And conditional relationships when they're at home and it's unstructured and you have an unconditional relationship to the A DHD brain, it's, wait a second, here is this warm, loving person that I can say no to and I could, you know, say unspeakable things to them and they're still going to love me and take care of me and do things for me and help me and hug me. Do all these things for me and it help and it really skews their idea of how relationships work. So if you're the parent and your child has a DHD and every single day is a homework fight, you have to delegate it. You have to back off. And a lot of the parents we work with, and we've, we've helped them no longer be involved in their child's homework. You know, whether the child's doing it at school. During the school day or after school at a local library with a classmate with a college student. That's one of the number one things that improves the parent's quality of life when they remove themselves mentally and physically from the child's homework.

Alisa Minkin:

Love that. Also, I've heard you talk about two other things. I want you to go into noise and learned helplessness.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Absolutely. I.

Alisa Minkin:

to those two things, so go for it, please.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yeah, so the noise goes back to what I was referring to earlier, how the A DHD brain is negative attention stimulation seeking. So when you think about A DHD and attention, it's not an attention deficit. It's their brain is stimulated. By negative attention. So the A DHD brain really is focused on instant gratification. It's constantly looking for what's going to give me dopamine right now, instead of using your executive functioning, visualizing the future, and realizing what can I do now to help me later? The A DHD brain thinks, what can I do now to help me now? And that's why it seeks out screens. Why it's heavily, heavily debilitating screen addictions with A DHD and also conflict. So the A DHD brain learns very quickly to use noise, which is complaining. Arguing, negotiating, just, just using their advanced language and really using language in very advanced ways. Whether they're doing a lot of negative self-talk and saying, I'm the worst person. You hate me. You know, they're, which I'm not saying don't take seriously, but I'm saying overall they know how to pull out their parents' heartstrings and use noise to keep the attention on them. There's an old saying in a DHD parent coaching. All A DHD behaviors need an audience, and that's what gives them dopamine. When there's an audience there, they want the stage, the spotlight, the microphone. They want all the focus, all the attention on them.'cause that's what gives them the dopamine and they learn very quickly that noise. Arguing, negotiating, you know, whether it's sympathy seeking or you know, just complaining, arguing, just constant negative energy towards the parents to suck them in to the argument vortex, the negotiation vortex, they use noise to do that and they're very successful with it. And once they're successful with it and they realize it works, they do it more and more and more. The A DHD brain does what works, and then learned helplessness goes back to that negative.

Alisa Minkin:

I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Please.

Alisa Minkin:

I'm still on. I'm still on noise and I just had a thought and you tell me what you. Think about this.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Sure.

Alisa Minkin:

is it for an A DHD parent? A parent who themself has a DHD? Don't they also get dopamine from noise?

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

So, so they certainly could, it's certainly a possibility. Obviously every A DHD person is different, but, but you know, by that age they tend to be much more developed and mature. So, you know, an A DHD parent is going to be in their adulthood you know, much more mature than a child. The, we know the brain develops until 30 years old. A DHD is obviously still going to, it's not going to be cured. It's going to affect you throughout your life, but how much is it going to affect your quality of life? So it is quite possible that the adults may get stimulated by negative attention. We tend to see that more with with dads, you know, the dads sort of that back and forth sort of thing. Moms, moms tend to want more of that peace and harmony and love with in the house and get very emotionally affected by sibling fighting and things like that. But with the adults, you tend to see them being a little bit more mature and growing out of that negative attention stimulation as opposed to a child.

Alisa Minkin:

Yeah, because the reason I'm saying this, so we can get to learn helplessness in a minute. I'm sorry,

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Of course,

Alisa Minkin:

wanna dig into this because. I'm thinking of two approaches, right?

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

I.

Alisa Minkin:

I keep saying it doesn't have to be this hard, but it does feel really hard when you're in the middle of that and I think your natural reflex would be to either go dig back in which you write. I do see more of the dags doing that, to try to give in to, to make peace and to, it just feels much easier to give in.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yes, and that's the permissiveness that that's them unintentionally becoming permissive parents, and you really, really can't do that with a DHD because I, because then you're teaching the A DH ADHD child that works. So when you give in and just give them what they want, that's the definition of permissive parenting. Overindulging the child to avoid conflict and now you've created a home environment where you're gonna have to walk on eggshells around your child 24 7 and sort of give them what they want.'cause they know if I turn the temperature up, I get what I want and I have full control. So that's some, that's something. The A DHD brain, that child and teen, A DHD brain craves is that control. Over the family members, the control over the household that gives them that dopamine. And when you do indulge and give them what they want, they learn. This works. When I get angry, when I yell, when I scream, when I break things. Sometimes physical aggression. When I attack my siblings, when I really turn the temperature up, my parents give up and they give in. And that's the last thing you want an A DHD brain to recognize.

Alisa Minkin:

You talk about helpless.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Learned helplessness is really, goes back to what I was saying earlier with that negative self-talk where they learn, once again, the A DHD brain does what works if they learn, you know, you're sitting there doing homework with your child. If they learn, oh, I'm so stupid. My teacher hates me. Nobody in the class likes me. I'm so bad at this. I'm so bad at this. And the parents get so emotionally affected. By hearing their negative self-talk, they then step in and do a lot of the homework for the child, or do the majority of it with the child and make it as easy for them as possible. So whether it's homework or chores or social events or whatever it may be, it's that parent stepping in. Unintentionally becoming permissive, unintentionally becoming a helicopter parent because the child has become so good at using their words and their language to pull up the parent's heartstrings where the parent is now stepping over their boundaries and doing more for the child than they developmentally should. So that's another, emotional manipulation tactic that they're using. Not, not maliciously, not at bad intentions. We're not saying these kids have bad character, they're simply doing what works, and they're able to create that environment with their strong language and their ability, ability to manipulate the parents.

Alisa Minkin:

What these have in common is they're not helping the kids be more resilient. It's

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Not in any way, shape, or form. It's the opposite. It's, it's, it's creating kids who are insecure of themselves and don't have any independent skills. And that's exactly what we're seeing now with so much of our Youth. America leads the entire world now in first semester college dropouts.'cause all we care, all we care about are grades, grades, grades, grades. And the child has a. A hundred page IEPA hundred, page 5 0 4. Parents help them every step of the way. Then they go to college. Parents aren't there. There's no IEP, there's no 5 0 4 and it's sink or swim. And we're, we're, we're holding their, the kids' hands too much and saving them from life. From birth to 12th grade and that's creating very insecure kids. And we're seeing, you know, I just saw stats the other day of Gen Zers that bring their moms with them to job interviews and have their moms talk to their bosses and all those sort sorts of things. And we've created that world through social media and this parenting algorithm,

Alisa Minkin:

Yes. I wanna talk a little bit about the social media parenting influencers. Just a minute, please.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

it is a mess.

Alisa Minkin:

gentle parenting and pathological devoid demand dev avoidance.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Oh my goodness gracious. So, so, so, you know, parents, when it comes to that kind of stuff, parents need the truth. They just need the hard, honest truth. Pathological demand avoidance is not a real diagnosis. It is not in the dsm, it is not legitimate. I don't care if it's in other countries or whatever it may be. That is, that is, that is pure social media. Pseudoscience. It is a label created on social media, not a medical diagnostic term. And parents have gotten so emotionally connected to this idea, and it's become sort of like this hive mind. Like you can't go on Facebook anymore and hear a parent describe their kid and then have 10 people in the comments look into PDA, look into PDA, look into PDA, because you know these people. Deep down, no, it's not a real diagnosis. And they feel like, oh, the more people that self-diagnose their kids with PDA, that legitimizes me and my child and my issues. And then this whole idea of low demand parenting of you can't place demands on them because it sets off their nervous system and tells them they want to die. That's just pure nonsense. And you're creating a child who's not going to be able to experience life. You're stealing their childhood from them. You're stealing experiences from them limits and how to begin a society and how to work with other people and how to eventually live an independent life. It's one of the saddest things about social media and the rise of pseudoscience is this whole low demand. Pathological demand avoidance idea because it's just simply not realistic and it's not real. And I, and you know, so many parents will reach out to me and say, you know, how dare you say that you are, you're not showing respect for my experience with my child. Well, I've had over 300 parents call me and reach out to me and say, Mike, I fell down the rabbit hole of PDA online and my child is now overweight. In bed, hasn't been to school, has no friends eats nothing but you know, ice cream all day. All of, and I, I, and it just has, is very scary for the future and doesn't know what to do. So we can't not have respect for those people's experiences that got duped by all the information online. So we have to be very realistic about what's real, what's not, what helps, what doesn't. And please just don't fall down the rabbit hole of PDA.

Alisa Minkin:

But I think that it resonates with parents for a reason, along with what is the way Gentle parenting is practice. That's another area that I'm we didn't get to yet. So I want you to get to that, but I just wanna say something. That I do have empathy again for how hard it is for parents,

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Of course.

Alisa Minkin:

think that in addition to parent coaching, I don't know if you do this as well, I have a feeling it's separate. some parents really do need to get help for themselves

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yes,

Alisa Minkin:

can't tolerate their child's distress to that point, that's their resilience issue.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

correct.

Alisa Minkin:

blaming, I'm not blaming them. They're people who've been through traumas. They're people who have bad childhoods. People don't feel supported. Social media is counterproductive, but I'm a big believer in put your oxygen mask on first, including your mental health oxygen mask on.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Correct, and you are spot on. There has never been a harder time in history to be a parent. Our school's RAS insurance is RAS parent that you can't pick up your phone without a parenting guru telling you everything you're doing wrong. Back to screens. We have these massive corporations that realized, hey, you know, we have this addicting thing. We're gonna make our most of our money on kids. So you're parenting a child in the age of screens and it's the hardest thing in the world. You know, back in the day it was go outside and come back for dinner. Go inside when the streetlights come on. And you had, and parents had all those hours after work to be home by themselves and decompress while their kids played and did things in the neighborhood and were watched by other parents and rode bikes all day and eventually came back dirty and, you know, bloody and messy and everything. And they were totally fine. You know, they weren't sent down into the world with a cell phone. A GPS. A water bottle, a snack, and all the things that you know kids have today to make sure they're safe. We were okay. And the world has actually never been safer. It's actually the virtual world that is the most dangerous. But you are absolutely correct that it's a very, very hard time to be a parent. And it's all about empowering parents. That's really what parent training is. It's, you know, it's not about, let. Let me make this hard for you, and you're right. Low demand parenting resonates with parents because it removes a whole thing of having to be the bad guy. Having to set boundaries, having to set limits, having to make your child uncomfortable. You know, parents are become, are becoming a little too obsessed with their relationship with their child, and they think if they set boundaries and limits, it's going to negatively impact their relationship. Or if they remove screens, it's going to negatively impact the relationship. You know, ki there's tons of research that show kids respond best to their parents when they're strong, authoritative leaders that have love limits and boundaries, and that's what kids need. And parents are responding so well to this low demand parenting because it removes their ab, their. You know, the needs to be authoritative and set limits and boundaries and have to deal with crying outbursts and big behaviors. But that is part of parenting. That's what you sign up for when you have a child that you're going. It's the good and the bad. And and, and kids need a strong, authoritative leader because that's what brings the best outcomes and has them be the most healthy, happy, healthy, and positive.

Alisa Minkin:

I love that, but I, we need to talk about gentle parenting and I keep getting told by people in the field, gentle parenting is authoritative parenting. It's not permissive parenting. actually, I think one of the problems with gentle parenting when it comes from the experts is it's the idea of perfect parenting. It actually

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yes.

Alisa Minkin:

a lot of demands from the parents that. Are not realistic in today's society, especially if they have traumas and neurodivergence themselves and so on and so forth. I think it's a setup for failure in its ideal form. But I want to hear your thoughts on that.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yeah. So this whole idea that gentle parenting is authoritative parenting, that's certainly not from what I've seen and not the way social media has skewed it, and not from the parents I've talked to. You know, social media tends to take everything to the extreme, you know, whether it's the food we eat, the politics, everything, everything is just, you know, very far into the spectrum. Nothing's in the middle anymore. So, you know, gentle parenting has been taken to the extreme Absolutely. That you. Are going to constantly soothe your child and constantly try to co-regulate with them and constantly try to validate their emotions and get on their level and, you know, check in with them. Everything. Emotions, emotions, emotions, every so in touch with their emotions and all of these different things. It's adding to the stress of parenting and all these parenting gurus who, you know, are having big behaviors with their kids behind the scenes, because that's part of what it is. Kids were put on this earth to push buttons and to drive their parents nuts. You know, sibling fighting not wanting to do homework, grades, all of those things are not a reflection of your parenting. You know, we've convinced parents that every single thing your child does. Is a direct reflection of your parenting, and that's nonsense Homework out. Homework output is not a reflection of your parenting. Sibling fighting is completely normal. If you have siblings and they're fight and they're not fighting, that's a bigger red flag than if they are fighting. So give yourself some grace and realize there is no such thing as perfect parenting, and it's messy. It doesn't have to be perfect and clean and great all the time. Kids are going to make a mess. They're going to make mistakes. They're going to say things they shouldn't say, do things they shouldn't do. Argue with others, fight with others. Want to do things that are fun instead of important. That's what being a kid is all about. They're experiencing life and experiencing these things for the first time. And we're shoving this idea of perfect parenting, perfect kids down these parents' throats, and increasing their anxiety and making them permissive.

Alisa Minkin:

Absolutely. And what to the good enough parent, remember the idea of the good enough parents

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Sure. Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

And I think that actually, again, and this is really, if you work on yourself, I think working on yourself as a parent is the best way to help your kid. Because you're modeling, and you say this too, your modeling is the best way to teach them these skills. I think if you make a mistake and you say, Hey, you know I made a mistake and I'm gonna do better and I'm gonna try, but it's okay. We all make mistakes. That is so much more valuable than having the perfect response

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yeah,

Alisa Minkin:

kid

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

should be saying that regularly to your par, to your kids. You know, you should be apologizing all the time. You should be narrating what you're doing. You know, when you're driving or you're cooking, you're cleaning, you know, externalize your internal voice and you know, let your kids see that. Sometimes you make mistakes and sometimes you're hard on yourself, and sometimes you have to figure things out yourself and make a mistake, go, you know, go and apologize to your child. Don't stand there and you know, you don't need to sit, stand there and wait for the perfect response or for your child to respond. Just say it out loud, make sure they're looking at you or in your general area when they're speaking, and then walk away. You know, it doesn't need to be a full on conversation. Just let them hear it. You know, parents need to learn. That, you know, I, I don't know if we, we all watched a little too much full house growing up and too many heart to hearts and monologues and talking, talking, talking. You know, kids are gonna learn the most by watching you and seeing how you handle frustration, how you handle traffic, how you handle arguments with your spouse, how you handle all these different things. They're not gonna learn from your lectures and your words and all these different things you say to them. They're gonna learn by watching you and how you go about your life.

Alisa Minkin:

I love that. And to quote Maya Angelou, do the best you can until you know better. When you know better, do better.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Love it.

Alisa Minkin:

best way, right? We're human and we want our kids to feel that it's okay to be human,

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Absolutely. And that's what it's all about. And, and you, you have a child who grows up. That's what builds the growth mindset. That's the great work of Dr. Carol Dck from out, from out in California is developing this growth mindset. Too many kids with A DHD are sort of prone to this fixed mindset of, I'm good at this, I'm bad at this. This is cool. This is stupid. This is fun. This is boring, and everything is so black and white. We want kids to have the growth mindset and be comfortable making mistakes, comfortable taking risks, comfortable putting themselves out there to try things, knowing they're not gonna be good at it. The first couple of times, you know, the A DHD brain is so apt to, you know, being nervous about a learning curve, not being amazing at something the first time you try it.'cause when they're on their phone and they're in complete control, or they're on Fortnite, Roblox, Minecraft, they're good at it the first time they try it. That's not how life works. You're not good at sports clubs, activities, jobs, relationships. The first time you try it, it takes time.

Alisa Minkin:

I love that and I'm trying to remember the quote by Thomas Edison. Do you know the quote by Thomas Edison? Something about I didn't fail 99 times.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

I, I know what you're talking about. I don't have it memorized though.

Alisa Minkin:

in. I don't, whatever. But that

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

and that's where you get that resilience is it's okay to fail, it's normative to fail,

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

I.

Alisa Minkin:

to have a, a learning curve. I, I really do love that. But I wanna segue into the neurodiversity movement on social media and that the dark side of it that you've talked about, because I think that's the problem with pathologizing. It becomes a fixed mindset.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Correct. And, you know so, so a lot of positive things have come from the neurodiversity movement. Like like, like, like how, you know, social skills and social skills groups aren't always the best thing and those kinds of things, but a lot of nonsense has come out of it. And, you know, out of it has sort of come this like vanity label of neurodiversity affirming therapist where like, what does that really. Even mean like, next time you see that label, ask the person what does that mean? And then, you know, are, are we not working on skills? Are we not trying to help them be adaptable to society? Or are we just letting this person be the way they are at baseline and not trying to help them build skills to be employable and being a community or, and, you know, be successful with relationships and work. You know, one of the. Most frustrating things of the neurodiversity movement is this whole idea that screens are regulating to the neurodiverse brain. I've seen many doctors, many neuropsychs and many licensed professionals tell parents, screens are regulating. Never take away a screen, give them screens. That's a big part of gentle parenting. Permissive parenting. PDA is screens are good. So that's one of the biggest lies told about technology is it's. Good for neuro neurodiverse. And it is not,

Alisa Minkin:

I was today years old when I learned that. Oh

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

oh, yeah.

Alisa Minkin:

what?

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

me. Now that I've, now that you've heard it, you'll notice it. You'll see it. And there's a lot of, a lot of people out there that are saying screens are good. They help, you know, they help the kids socially. They help them regulate. It's, it's really, really bad.

Alisa Minkin:

Wow, that. Oh my gosh. That is, I do not agree with that at all.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

And there's zero research behind it. Obviously it's all social media pseudoscience.

Alisa Minkin:

Wow. So would you like

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

I.

Alisa Minkin:

anything? Because I've gone through what I wanna go through, but I wanna say go listen to your podcast. I'm partway through it. It's fantastic. And there's so many more things that we're not covering. We could talk forever. So I do recommend that. I definitely want you to tell us where to find you, but first, any last things that you'd like to say.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Yeah, so, so you know, in terms of, I, I Hint did, hinted at it a little bit in terms of parent training. The number one to think about is the number one rule in all of parent training for A DHD executive dysfunction is use less language, you know, do less, find ways to be less involved and speak less. Create visual reminders to replace your verbal prompts. Step back from the constant monologues, and don't be afraid to significantly decrease or eliminate technology in areas where it is needed. We like to use this phrase, all behavior is communication, but we only want to believe it when it's warm and fuzzy and makes us feel good, like, oh, that's a connection seeking behavior. He just wants more hugs and me to get on his level and for me to help him. But in reality, your child is probably showing you on a daily basis with their behavior that they are not ready for the level of screens that you gave them. So their behavior is communication. They're telling you, Hey mom, I'm probably not ready to have my phone alone in my bedroom. I'm probably not ready. To have my phone past 7:00 PM I'm probably not ready for Roblox, Fortnite, and Minecraft, and they're probably telling you with their behavior every single day. My brain's not ready yet. I need you to be more authoritative. Remove these things or limit these things. So find ways to get. Pictures of your kids doing non-preferred tasks, you know getting ready for the shower, brushing their teeth, getting ready in the morning, get pictures of these things, create visual timelines for sequencing and eliminate those verbal prompts. So that's the biggest thing is use less language. In terms of myself like we said earlier, my name is Michael McLeod. I'm the owner of Grown Now, A DHD. You can find me@grownnowadhd.com. I, I, we, we do one-on-one internal skills training for student. Combine with all students of all ages. So we work with preschool, elementary, middle high school. We have college age students. We have a young adult independence program and a job coaching program. We do an executive functioning summer camp, an experience based summer camp in the summer. We do outdoor social groups and we do fully personalized parent training. So nothing we ever do is a one size fits all rigid curriculum. We tailor everything towards a unique individual. The unique parent. So it's meant to be a very short, productive process to give you the tools. I also do a lot of school professional development, so that's my role now, is I travel the country and internationally training schools, private schools, religious schools, whatever it may be, on the most UpToDate research and very practical tools they can use the very next day.

Alisa Minkin:

I love that and I have to thank you so much for doing this with me.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Of course this is, it is, it's been nothing but a privilege to chat with you and to meet you and to learn about the great work you're doing. You're doing incredible work. Always great to meet a fellow Long Islander. So, yep, yep, yep. So this is great. Yes. Yes. I, I'll, I'll be back for the holidays.

Alisa Minkin:

Amazing. We have to try to actually meet and have coffee

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

I would love that.

Alisa Minkin:

Okay. Thank you so much.

Mike McLeod - GrowNOW:

Thank you.

Thank you for listening to Kids Matter. Raising Healthy, happy Children Takes a village, and I'm grateful you are part of ours. If today's conversation resonated with you, please share this episode with another parent, grandparent, teacher, or anyone who cares about kids. Together we can build a supportive community our children deserve. I'd love to hear from you. Share your thoughts, questions, or suggestions for future topics at Kids Matter podcast@gmail.com. With no explanation for your voice truly matters. Until next time, keep advocating for the children in your life because kids really do matter. They are our future. I'm Dr. Elisa Minkin and this has been Kids Matter. Please note that while I am a pediatrician, I am not your child's ped. This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute medical. For any medical concerns or decisions. Reach out to your child's healthcare professional.