Ep. 5 ' I Love You, But... I Don't See How This Works'

In this episode, Daren and Jess explore the tension between desire and responsibility. They talk openly about wanting a baby together while knowing it would disrupt the lives they’ve already built with their children. They unpack cultural milestones like marriage, cohabitation, and “what’s next,” and question whether love requires them at all.

They confront the reality of blended families, honoring their children’s voices over their own romantic impulses. The episode becomes a conversation about restraint, choosing love without ownership, and building a relationship that works for everyone involved — even if it doesn’t look traditional.

It’s a mature look at love after divorce. Love with brakes built in. Love that doesn’t bulldoze.

You can support the show through our Patreon. Get access to full length video and be part of the community - patreon.com/iloveyoubut

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I love you. I love you. Love you, but I love you.

SPEAKER_03 0:04

I love you. But but Hi baby.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Hi.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

Um we both have children individually, separately, and we talked about well, I guess before we even knew each other, there was that kind of idea that we both held of not ever wanting to live with somebody else and never wanting to have kids. Um is that am I right in saying that? I will say personally after meeting you, I wanted both of those things. And I don't know, I love you, but I will say that it's an amazing feeling to be able to uh desire something and then to have a kind of what a higher vibrational or a more sensible part of us that knows children for the two of us would be a wild decision. Yeah. Name all the reasons why it would be a wild decision.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Oh my gosh, baby, do you want to have a baby?

SPEAKER_03 1:25

I want I want no. I don't want to have a no, I don't want to have a baby. But I want to have a baby, yeah. I want to have a baby, I want to have a thing, I want to have a um element.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

This podcast is. Oh, right, sorry. Are we doing a podcast?

SPEAKER_03 1:44

I thought we were just having a conversation. Excuse me.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Wait, wait. First of all, you're not alone in this like moment of, oh my god, should we have a baby?

SPEAKER_03 1:58

I'm not alone because you feel it as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Well, I've I have felt that in this relationship.

SPEAKER_03 2:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

And there are moments where I do feel that because my experience of motherhood, I got pregnant when I was 25 years old. I had Noah, and I was that was before I ever had like my biological clock had not even started ticking. I had never wanted children in a way where that desire is stemming from evolution. And so I I don't know, I didn't know what that felt like. What it would it feel like when my body wanted to reproduce. And I remember being in my mid-30s or in even in my early 30s and thinking like, oh my God, am I gonna do this again with a different partner, with a different person? And you know, I always thought that I would have more children um in my relationship with Noah's father. Um, when we were together, it was always like if we're going to have kids, we're going to have a couple of them. The idea of like an only child never occurred to me because I'm one of three and and I, yeah, it just felt so isolating and and strange. Um and life did not pan out that way. And the more years that passed, the less likely it was going to be that there would be a sibling. Because the idea of like having a sibling that is such an age gap between them didn't feel like it would be anything like my experience where my brothers and I, you know, my older brother is 15 months older than me, and my other brother is three and a half years older. So yeah, when we got together, it was immediately something I didn't have to think about because you did the beautiful responsible thing of when you know you don't want to have more children, you have a vasectomy.

SPEAKER_03 4:01

Yeah. And then you realize, oh, wait a second, what is the process of having that reversed? And then you find out on Thanksgiving in New Jersey that it costs some upwards of$25,000 to have it reversed. Yeah. But that aside.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

That's pennies compared to what it costs to raise a child.

SPEAKER_03 4:20

That's true. Uh the decision, which is, you know, it's like there's an interesting element of like what what I've discovered, uh, having since been in the relate in a relationship with you, is that these final proclamations and things of just like, I will never, I won't ever, I'll never do this again. All these things is like you only know what you know based on what you've experienced. And in the time between that experience and another experience is just a you have the the benefit of hindsight, but you have no foresight because how could you know? How could I know? I could not know that I would meet you and want all of the things that become which we've talked about, these kind of cultural milestones of like what it is when you meet somebody, uh very kind of Western culture.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Which is my I love you, but where is this going? We talked about the normal, natural, expected milestones that couples hit to demonstrate to the outside world we're serious, we're in this, we're committed, and that is historically been marriage, moving in together, not in this order, marriage, moving in together, having a baby, and so the having a baby part, I can say with confidence in this moment is not going to be part of our story because it would cost too much in terms of um it would cost too much in terms of compromise and not just my own compromise. Being a mother at 40 is something that I don't judge. If that is where life has planted you, I think it's beautiful. Like I've been doing the math. When he's 15, I'll be this age. When he graduates from high school, I will still be young 40s. I will not use the word sacrifice because it's not a sacrifice, but I the years of what are typically freedom and your ability to explore whether that is career-wise or just in your own life, my 20s and my 30s have been dedicated to motherhood. Yeah. And that has been such a beautiful thing. And I don't want to repeat it.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

I gave everything.

SPEAKER_03 6:59

Yes, you did. And it's evident. It is evident in the way that you have your bond and your relationship with your child. And it also happened to fall in a time where, for a lot of people, that's a very selfish, and I don't mean to even use that word derisively. It's meaningful in having a selfishness in your life of pursuing any and all things that you want without any sort of compromise, without any sort of selflessness. And you gave these years of your life to a selfless act, which has benefited you tremendously. Yes. And you will have that forever. So, yes, so to say, to open that, open up that project again, neither of us want that. And we romanticized the idea. Well, for me, and I'm sure I think you say share the same, and if not more, is that for me, the feeling alone of wanting to marry you and have a child with you, whether either neither of those things, either of those things can come to fruition is that what a gift already that is. Is again these more so the marriage, because that's a made-up institution that was fabricated. The baby thing is a real, you know, programmed, that's the way it works. And so uh just to live in those, to reside in those feelings of thank fucking God, I love this. That's the first time I've sweared.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

And also thanked God in the same breath.

SPEAKER_03 8:18

So, yes, that that's amazing to me. That feel I love that. I love that. And what a nightmare.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Yeah, and I think that we both have have kind of pivoted between that desire, which is so natural, to meet someone that you love and immediately feel that sense of how can we co-create? Because isn't that what we are as humans? We're creators. So when you meet a partner and you think, yes, I love this life that I've created, I love joining my life with you. What can we create together? Podcast. And honestly, for so many people, that there are so many people who choose not to have children that feed that can still feed that same co-creation with their person. And that looks different for everyone.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

Those are called DINKS. You know that term?

SPEAKER_00 9:03

No, is that offensive?

SPEAKER_03 9:06

Oh no, it's often reserved for for I believe it's often reserved for uh homosexual men, but I think it could be used for heterosexual couples.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

I'm almost positive we'll have to cut that out.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

DINK is an acronym for dual income no kids. Oh, nice. Yeah, so doesn't that sound pretty good?

SPEAKER_00 9:24

No. I um yeah, I think that we both have been the one to say, let's have a baby.

SPEAKER_03 9:32

And would we not have one had I not had a vasectomy?

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Oh, I would be pregnant already. Yes. So thank God you did because I I mean the connection that we have, plus, it would be so beautiful. I know we both have made such beautiful children. And my god. But at the same time, like I don't think that life makes mistakes. No, I don't think that you know, I don't think that we are at the point in our lives that we're at. Um we're allowed to have the desire. We don't necessarily have to bring it to fruition. And I think what would feel good is to pay attention to what that desire is about. Because I'm gonna cry. Maybe we're gonna have to cut like half of the city.

SPEAKER_03 10:25

No, crying material here. What is making you cry, baby? You don't have to share it.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Well, I'll share with you because this is a conversation with us, but I I think I've said this to you before where the desire to have a child with you, yes, that is about wanting to have that experience with you and wanting to co-create with you. It is also the desire to overwrite my history of what my experience was with pregnancy and with the first years of being a mother. And I imagine what that could have been like with you as my partner. How can you not imagine that? Yeah, and so that's that to me is like not a reason to bring a baby into the world, right? To rewrite history, to revise the narrative.

SPEAKER_03 11:35

Well, I mean, because you're going, that's a massive expectation that you're putting on it already. And I think I could live up to that expectation. I know that I could. I know that I could treat you with the level of reverence and honor and and and care that you'd absolutely deserve. And yes, not just a reason. We can have those feelings, or we can tr we can come as close as we can to cultivate what that experience is without having to bring another social security number into the world. Oh my god. That demean gift of life right there.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

I also think that I mean, I don't know. I I have felt so fortunate with my experience of motherhood. Like, I know that every parent must say this, but like my kid is so amazing.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

I don't think every parent says that.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Well, my kid is so amazing, and I I I feel so blessed to to be his mom. And he, you know, he was born healthy, and there have never been any real hurdles to raising him. He's been such an easy child. Um, just in terms of like we speak the same language, I know how to care for him because we have been communicating with and without language for so long. I feel like the experience I've had of motherhood is so rare, and I know that I can be an amazing mother to one child. I don't know how I show up as a mother to two children, three children.

SPEAKER_03 13:18

Yeah. So here we are, having found ourselves and finding this easy-ish decisions being made prior to each other, bringing us into this dynamic where I think that we get to play in the energy that is. Could you imagine? And I know we say this all the time, whenever we imagine a worse version of our relationship, is that you want it really wanted a child? I didn't want one, and I'm able to give you one. So not to, I mean, I'm I'm grateful the way that it is in both ways, that I we both would love to have one, and I also can't with my current circumstances. So you know, tax thing. So we have that, and I will say, just to go back, because you dropped that I love you butt quickly, and then we move right into this, is that you gave me this I love you but in real time, because we actually do play this game in real life, it's not just for the show, and it was longer, and I like actually the way you phrased it now because I can that's a better episode title. But you said uh the other night, and I might get it wrong, but I you said, Do you remember it? No, I love you, but I oh damn it.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

It was Do you remember?

SPEAKER_03 14:23

No, apparently not. I love you, but I don't see how this can work with the way that it is. I think it was in regards to us not living together. I don't know how this could work with.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

I love you, but I don't see how we can move forward not living together, and I don't see how we can move forward living together. Yes, yeah, yeah, I remember.

SPEAKER_03 14:46

Yeah, and I told you that I I didn't even hear the second half because I blacked out. I don't see how this works.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Limbs went up.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

And I and in the same, and I guess in you know, in not as crippling fashion to hear uh it in this in this more concise term of uh I love you, but I don't see how this works, is what I have to only be able to grab onto is we don't often really know how anything works. And the only reason it feels like it's not gonna work is because of the current circumstances and we're wanting something different from it, and it's not currently available, and that's all mm-ways of me self-soothing and not jumping to say, well, well then okay, then fine, let's not, you know, like that's the voice sounds so frantic.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

I'm glad you've never used it on me.

SPEAKER_03 15:31

Why did we get matching tattoos?

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Oh, we didn't even show everybody our matching tattoos.

SPEAKER_03 15:36

Well, here you guys can see it on Patreon. Um, so yeah, so I I hear you say that now, and I hear you say it without a level of and I I don't know how this works, and I think we should end this. It's just a curiosity of like I know that a little context, please.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

Not for you, I think I need it as well. Um I have a child, Darren has a child, and we share custody with their other parent. And the age difference between our children is eight years. Actually, I don't know if that's true. Do math for me. Oh mine's 13, Darren's child is gonna be eight.

SPEAKER_03 16:18

So five. Like maybe closer to six.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

So there's a big age gap. And while I think they're both at such different phases of their becoming, there's not much connective tissue. And so that to me, and my my child has been very vocal about not wanting to move and not wanting to share, become one household. And that is something that again, I feel is so beautiful for him to be able to voice that to me and know that that will be heard and it will be honored. I think it's so scary for any one of us, but especially for a child to say what their needs are and hope that they'll be met.

SPEAKER_03 17:07

Yeah, like it's more often I think, well, yeah, you we've we'll take that into consideration and we're still gonna do the thing we're gonna do. Yes. For our own adult interests.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Yes. But when I say that it would cost too much in terms of compromise, um I, you know, I've been a single mom for a minute, and we have such a beautiful dynamic, and we have our space and we have our routine and we have our rhythm together. And so to disrupt that has to be beneficial for everyone involved.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

And I would love to hear what people who are listening have done in terms of mixed families and joining households because I've never done that before. And I think that I want to make sure that our children always are the most prioritized voice in the room. And I know a lot of parents would not agree with that. Our children have a childhood for so long. Yep, it is such a short period of time. And like, do you and I want to live in the same house? Do we want to wake up next to each other every single morning? Do we always want to be together and share every element of our lives? Yes, of course we do. And we're not the only two people in this relationship.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

So when we think of what our future looks like, we have to take into account the very valid needs of both of our children.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

And for me, it's it's a no-brainer.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

And it doesn't mean that it's an easy um reality. Okay, so then we delay living together for as long as we need to until it feels good for everyone involved.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

I'm not interesting, I'm not interested in putting my needs above my child's needs just in this in this conversation.

SPEAKER_03 18:58

We consider what's in the now, and what is in the now is that we love each other and whatever we can do in that. And so that's all that matters. And so these very large, big, big decisions can't be made because they're not made with everyone in mind. And if they were, then they would not really be decisions at that point.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

So yeah, and I think that that's something that you know, I don't want to overlook the massive blessing here, which is that your child likes me and my child likes you. Like I look at the relationship that you have with my son, and it's so beautiful. And I remember when um earlier this year, um sorry, last year, I wrote a poem that was titled, If I ever remarry, and it was just this beautiful love letter to my son about the expectation of what the person entering our family would have to meet. And it's this, it's this level of openness and flexibility and understanding and and really honoring where he is and honoring his voice and his needs in this full picture rather than just seeing our relationship as one thing and he's a he's just an aspect of it. And the same for yours. It's it's just really beautiful. Um, it's really beautiful to see the ways that our children are embracing the parts of this relationship that are important to us. And so for me, I'm like, why would we push that faster at a pace that that isn't that is only comfortable for us?

SPEAKER_03 20:37

Selfish intentions for sure. Um, and I think that I can live, I think when we can live in the knowing that each other that we have in times where our children are the most important things beyond us, where we've had uh one example that comes to mind which was so meaningful and and substantial in helping me understand what it is, because I've never been in a relationship with somebody who has a child, so this is already a new thing for me, and recognizing what it means to hold your child in the highest regard and and having them as the most, you know, number one priority is it was a simple moment where there was a miscommunication and scheduling, and Jess and I had a night planned, and it turned out that I actually was uh responsible for picking up my kid at school, and it kind of came at me unexpectedly. And so in that moment, we had to change drop our plans and go pick up my kid and and hang with with my kid. And it was for for to Jess's credit, it was just in nanosecond of okay, let's go, let's drop everything.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

And I think you know, it would be interesting to hear the perspective from couples who one person has a child and the other person has never been a parent. Yeah, because you can't know right what that's like. Me as a Mother, my kid, my my mind immediately goes to what does your child need? Yeah. In the same way that you would for mine. So it's it's something that is very fluid, and we're both fluent in in kind of speaking the language of re-prioritizing quickly.

SPEAKER_03 22:15

Well, I think it also just for me, it speaks to the the abundance for scarcity within our dynamic is to your point earlier, is that our kids have a finite childhood. And I mean, you point that out a lot. And I'm having, I've been having moments recently where like I'm looking back at old videos of my kid and I'm like, yeah, that shit does go so fast. And so, of course, this time that I'm in now will go fast, and and so on. But that in that moment of like where you and I are gonna have a dinner together and have a night in, okay, we have that for the rest of our lives, a moment where you know, it's just that reconfiguring priority and having a partner who supports that. And I just want to say, and I have, I think I could do a whole episode where I talk about all the things that I think you're you stand out to me as an incredible person, but this with these traits that you have, and and you often will say, So in that moment, I'll say, Thank you, like genuinely express gratitude for the way that you handle that. And you will often say, like, well, what's the other option?

SPEAKER_02 23:11

Well, what's the alternative?

SPEAKER_03 23:13

The alternative is that you don't do that, that you take it very personally, that you become petulant, and you and you drop to the level of what would only be kind of compared to as a child, of just like you've now had something taken away from you as opposed to seeing what the real value is here. So I just I love when you do that because it just highlights how there can be a difference for sure.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Yeah. I mean, there is a reality for many people where their children are vocal about their needs and say, I don't want you to get married, I don't want you to live together. And they express themselves clearly, and the parent does whatever the parent wants to do because it's beneficial to their experience. And they think, oh, well, they'll eventually come to the city.

SPEAKER_03 23:56

Well, there's a million ways to justify it for sure.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Exactly. And so that is an alternative. We could do that. Let's go ahead and get married, let's move in together and see how the chips fall. That's not something I'm interested in pursuing because it's taken me 13 years of motherhood to build the dynamic and the foundation of trust where if my child speaks his needs, he knows that he'll be heard. Yeah, it doesn't mean that I bend to his every desire and his every whim, but it means that your voice matters in this family just as much as my voice, just as much as yours. So I mean, that's just not something that I am willing to disrupt. And I think that, you know, I've I've always said about us from the beginning that we have the breaks built into this relationship.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

We, you know, if the fear of us moving too fast is a thing, we every week we have days apart just based on our schedules, just based on what takes priority in that moment. And I think that's a blessing. Again, life does not make mistakes. If you're coming into my world and my family at this moment, there's a reason for that. And I'm not trying to change the dynamic or or just yeah, I'm not trying to restructure things. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 25:12

It is interesting to consider that what why are we what what is it that when we're trying to change a thing? And we and you and I have been very clear around recognizing these cultural milestones, that there's no endogenous feeling of you, I, Darren, and you, Jess, we're both just like I we should live or we should get this holy matrimony, these things that are just made up, that get plugged into the system. And so it's cool to kind of see them as potentials of of interest, but not a re and it not at all a requirement for us for this dynamic to work. The dynamic that's already working and needs to have a thing changing it for it to work is silly.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:50

Well, how do you feel about marriage?

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Um I believe it exists. I don't want the government in anything that I do and involved in anything that I love.

SPEAKER_03 26:06

Checks and notes in a time where you were very interested in marriage. I could go grab a note from my car.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

There's a Pinterest board somewhere. Yeah. Marriage as a legally binding. Okay, let's let's discuss. I think we have enough time to talk about this. The other day it came up in conversation when your friend was visiting, and I acknowledge that so many people uh have felt the freedom to voice their opinion about this relationship. And they're very flippant about it.

SPEAKER_03 26:42

We welcome the engagement.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Speak for yourself. They're very flippant about it. Like, oh yeah, you guys are new. This is you're in the honeymoon phase. Wait until blah, blah, blah. And I want to just acknowledge that you and I have both been married and divorced before. And I think that it's something we don't speak about enough. The courage it takes and the vulnerability it takes to fall in love with someone after you have been married and divorced. Like you have been in the trenches of relationship warfare and you're willing to go back into relationship, that's crazy. The fact that you and I are able to feel this level of love and attraction and safety is a miracle, I think. And it doesn't matter that, oh, we're just new, we're just starting out, we've experienced the underbelly of love. And so that to me would mean shouldn't we be hesitant? Shouldn't we be more protective or self-protected?

SPEAKER_02 27:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

But the fact that we have been able to dive into this relationship with so much hope, I think that that's beautiful. I don't think that it's brave for someone to fall in love for the first time. I think that it's incredibly brave for somebody to fall in love, get married, fall out of love, get divorced, recover. I mean, that to me is like you've survived something.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

And you've not lost faith in it, and you've not lost hope in it, and you've not lost that desire to express yourself through love that way. I think it's beautiful. Why was I saying that?

SPEAKER_03 28:20

Well, I was just asking if you wanted to marry me.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

Oh, yeah. So that being said, that being said, it did sound like a proposal. Um, I am without a doubt devoted to you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:34

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my my I don't like that's not, I guess we've never felt I need you to do this thing in order for this relationship to carry on. And I don't, and it's the same thing with the child, like I said, I I am so excited by the fact that I want to marry you, this institution that was made up and plugged into the system, that I find any sort of appeal of is that's the exciting thing for me. Is is holy shit, what a gift that I get to be with someone I want to marry.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

I love that, and also I'm a huge fan of Kurt Russell and Goldie Hahn and how they got engaged and it was this beautiful love affair, and then they have just continued to choose each other every single day without the pressure of having to choose each other because you are legally bound to each other to divorce someone. When you divorce someone, you are suing another human being for your freedom. You're suing someone to get your own life back. Yeah, I don't ever want to be in that position again. I want to choose you every single day that I'm choosing you, and I will wear a ring and I will hold some form of flowers and I will have a ceremony, but I do not want the government. That's all I'm asking. I just want the ceremony. This relationship.

SPEAKER_03 29:47

I want to have a party.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

We can have a party.

SPEAKER_03 29:49

Well, because we put a beautiful Pinterest board together, and I think it would be a waste of freedom. Um, yeah, no, I think that there is that that desire to like hold. I don't know what, yeah, that is a little, yeah, it's a little selfish vanity project there just to like say gather around our love. It's cute.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

I mean, I don't know. I don't, I just I don't believe it.

SPEAKER_03 30:13

Okay, well, I'll let it go. I'll just drop it. I won't be excited about it anymore.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

No, be excited about it. I'm just talking like marriage. I don't I don't believe in marriage as a path forward.

SPEAKER_03 30:24

Can we have a ceremony?

SPEAKER_00 30:25

Yeah, baby. We can.

unknown 30:28

Okay. That's fine.

SPEAKER_03 30:30

And you don't do anything you don't want to, so she just agreed to it.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

That's right. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 30:36

Patreon.com slash I love you butt is the way that you can support the show. Thank you for those who do. And for those who are interested, head on over to that site and and and support us. We love doing this and we love you all. Thank you so much. Thank you. I love you.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

I love you too.