Episode 4: An Interview with Daniel Foster, Licensed Ontario Paralegal, Program Coordinator

Transcript

Tara Edwards 0:01

Hello, my name is Tara, and welcome to Sister-in-Law, the Paralegal Journey, a podcast about the careers behind the case files. Whether you work in law, work alongside the legal profession, or thinking about a career in the space, or simply want an honest look at the paralegal journey, you're in the right place. Welcome back to Sister-in-Law, the paralegal journey. In this episode, we are having a conversation with someone who has seen the paralegal profession from almost every angle, practice, licensing, education and leadership. Okay. Daniel Foster began his career as a paralegal in Ontario before licensing took effect and went on to operate his own paralegal firm. Transitioned into teaching and now serves as a program coordinator, shaping how future paralegals enter the profession. His perspective as a licensed paralegal in Ontario gives us an opportunity to look at where the profession has been, where it is now, and where it might be heading. As you listen to today's episode, I encourage you to ask yourself these questions: what does a sustainable and meaningful career in the paralegal profession look like for me? And how do I get there? Hey, Dan, thank you so much for taking the time out to speak with me and for being here. To start us off, can you introduce yourself and tell the listeners a bit about your current role?

Daniel Foster 1:22

Hi there. my name's Daniel Foster. I am a licensed paralegal in Ontario, I'm also, the paralegal program coordinator here at a college in Ontario. I've done accreditations for many colleges for this program, and I've been practicing for approximately 26 or 27 years and teaching in all that timeframe as well.

Tara Edwards 1:46

Thank you so much, Dan what first drew you to the paralegal profession and what did the role look like when you were entering in Ontario? I.

Daniel Foster 1:55

Oh, that's a good question. In the nineties I was a musician trying to make it as a musician. I wanted to be a professional. And I was also a stay-at-home dad at the same time. But being a musician, as some people may or may not know, it's a tough profession to become successful in it. I mean, success means different things to different people, but I wanted to make a good living doing it. And what happened is as I approached the late nineties, I found it very tough. So I started thinking about what another career could be and I thought, to myself, you know, music you can never know at all. You can never stop learning. Like with music, you can never be a master of all genres. You can never know all jazz, all r and b, classical, et cetera. What I discovered in my research on what I could go into was that it was the same for law. Law. You can never know it all. You can never ever be the master of it all. It's lifelong learning. So it attracted me and I didn't have the, credentials and the time and money to go into law school. So I entered the paralegal studies and, as I did that, I discovered that, paralegals have, certain skill sets that they need that are similar to lawyers and so I did that. And what role. Did the look like when I came in? Well, when I came in, there was no licensing, frankly, there was a lot of bad paralegals out in the field and there was a lot of frustration over that through lawyers and judges, adjudicators, justice of the peaces. The profession kind of had a bad reputation. So when I came into it in around 2000, there was just the beginning of the talk about the law society, creating licensing for paralegals.

Tara Edwards 3:43

Once you were actually practicing, what surprised you most compared to what you learned in school? I.

Daniel Foster 3:49

Oh, another good question. I'm not gonna say I was surprised as much as what I learned was that you can never learn it all in school. It's impossible. You can only get a foundation when you go to school. So, let's do the analogy to learning how to ride a bike. I can tell you how to ride a bike. I can read a manual on how to ride a bike. I can describe how to ride a bike. But until you actually sit on that bike, you're never gonna learn how to do it and that's the same analogy for going to school and practicing. When you go to school, I can tell you everything you need to know, but you're not gonna really understand it until you get out there and actually practice. So what you learn at school compared to the real world is simple. School builds a foundation, it gives you the ABCs, the D to Z is lifelong learning in the field.

Tara Edwards 4:47

You were practicing before paralegal licensing took effect in Ontario, what did the profession look like before licensing and why did Ontario ultimately decide to regulate paralegals? What problems was licensing meant to address?

Daniel Foster 5:03

Oh, that's a big question. Well, when I started it was mostly men in the profession, very few women. There was a demand for access to justice for the average person seeking legal information, legal representation, and so on. There was a lot of complaints about unethical behavior. There were complaints about billing issues with paralegals because there was no licensing, the paralegal scope of practice, wasn't defined yet. There were ethical issues, confidentiality issues, that all had to be addressed because, paralegals were not licensed. So the profession before was not a great one before licensing, I welcomed licensing because of what I saw out there. I was in the field for about seven years before licensing and I was not impressed with the lack of understanding, lack of knowledge, and lack of proper ethical behavior on paralegals. So what licensing did was it weeded out the majority of those bad paralegals. And, only led in the few that were truly understood, issues of confidentiality, rules of conduct, ethics and so on. And now, what surprised me the most was when I got into how, lucrative it was as well. That did surprise me. I'll have to say that. But. One thing I will say is the great thing about it is, although it was mostly men, now it's two thirds women in the profession to one third men. And I believe in the last number I saw or read about was there was about 12,000 paralegals in Ontario. So 8,000 of those are, women, which is great.

Tara Edwards 6:47

It also shows that the profession has evolved and has opened doors. Were there growing pains during the transition that newer paralegals today might not fully appreciate? I.

Daniel Foster 6:58

There were growing pains that definitely the scope of practice had to be defined. The growing pains of what paralegals can do, and more importantly, what they cannot do. See in Ontario licensees. Are allowed to give legal advice, and were allowed to advocate within the scope of practice of a paralegal. So who paralegals could represent, couldn't represent. That ended up getting defined compared to what paralegals know today. They just know it as, here's what I can do. But there were growing pains and what that meant at the time. Having the scope widen to address access to justice issues is another thing. Paralegals today, what they didn't know is when I started the monetary jurisdiction was only 6,500. Now it's 50,000. Now you can do family law, criminal law, for, criminal summary matters like the practice has quite a wide scope, compared to when it began, but the growing pains are still going. The growing pains are, we need more access to justice, we need more affordable services for the public, and we need the public more importantly, to know that we're there and we're available to give them those services compared to a lawyer.

Tara Edwards 8:12

So do you think that the paralegal scope in Ontario will continue to evolve or it will kind of just stay where it's at right now?

Daniel Foster 8:20

Well, it is evolving as we speak. As I said, family law was not allowed. Now once you get licensed, you can go and get, a specialized certification to practice family law as a paralegal and what people have to understand is in Ontario, because we're under the regulator being the law society, we have responsibilities to act ethically, to maintain confidentiality, to make sure we're doing things the way the rules of conduct say. But the scope of practice is expanding and it's a slow process, and it involves many, stakeholders, you know, everybody from the ministry to government officials, to court officials to the the benchers at the law society themselves.

Tara Edwards 9:07

Looking back now, do you think licensing achieved what it was meant to accomplish? Why or why not?

Daniel Foster 9:13

Oh, yeah. I think it's accomplished a lot. Again, what makes Ontario unique is that licensees here can actually give legal advice and advocate in the courts within the scope of practice of the paralegal. So what makes us different is. Where a paralegal across Canada is defined as a paralegal, they still can't, from what I know and what I understand at this current time, they can't give legal advice and go and argue a case, cross examinee, direct examination, present evidence, and so on. Only a paralegal in Ontario can do that as a licensee, but yes, it did what it's meant to accomplish and it's growing, it's expanding and learning. It's never ending. I feel it's a positive direction and I feel like it's going in a direction, where, maybe someday, we'll be able to represent, twice the scope of practice today.

Tara Edwards 10:09

And from your experience, what separates paralegals who build sustainable, respected careers from those who struggle or plateau?

Daniel Foster 10:18

So, if you're gonna be successful, you have to not only know the rules of conduct and the bylaws and your ethical obligations, but you also have to be a business person and you have to have those business skills, and that's a separate skillset. You know, there's a perception that all lawyers are rich. Well, there's some lawyers out there who are very successful and make a lot of money, but they're also good, rich paralegals in Ontario. I know paralegals that are millionaires from their business and that's not because they're a paralegal or lawyer, it's because they're a good business person. They understand business, they know how to move forward. So whether you struggle or plateau, it depends on a couple of things. One, it's not what you know as much as who, you know. The truth is nepotism plays a big role in any business moving forward. For example, when I have a student that comes to me and says, Hey, I want to be prosecutor. What can I do to be a successful prosecutor? The first thing I tell them is, hang out with prosecutors. As much as that sounds bad, it's not such a bad thing when you know people. Knowing people, helps you lessen your struggle to get into the field or the area of law that you want to, whether you're a wanna become a mediator with your paralegal license, whether you want to litigate cases or represent someone in family law or represent someone in criminal summary matters, either way, you getting out there and getting to know people in the profession is what matters. So what it comes down to is what are your networking skills like? So. I don't believe you would plateau if you forwarded those skills and put them to the test on a daily basis. So, the people that struggle are the ones that are quiet, shy, and don't have the what it takes to stand up to a judge in a middle of a case and tell them respectfully that they're wrong, which is not easy to do.

Tara Edwards 12:23

It is funny that you should say that about networking because that's what I've been basically talking about in my previous podcast episodes. It's that networking really matters and you have to let people know in your spaces what you want to do.

Daniel Foster 12:40

Exactly. And you know where the networking starts. It starts from that classroom. You have 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 other people in your room that are all going into the same profession. Your networking really, it starts right there from that moment.

Tara Edwards 12:55

These next set of questions I'm just gonna ask about, you moving into your teaching career. When did you start thinking about teaching paralegals and what was the biggest adjustment? Moving from practicing as a paralegal to teaching future paralegals? I.

Daniel Foster 13:08

Well, I came into the profession by accident as a teacher. What happened was I was doing landlord tenant matters. And there was a lawyer that saw me a few times and he approached me after he saw a few of my cases and he came up to me and he said, Hey, I like how you do your work. I think you're good at it. Would you be interested in teaching? And I was like, sure, why not? So he introduced me to the coordinator at a college here in Ontario called Centennial College and I taught my first course there being business law, and I immediately knew that was my love and my passion from that moment. As soon as I taught that class and walked outta that classroom, I decided I was gonna create a three-year plan to become a full-time teacher as well as practice at the same time. And I did that, I created a three-year plan, and that three-year plan involved looking at what credentials do I need in that three years? What experience do I need in those three years, and who do I need to know, get to know, and what do I need to do? So I, I did all those things and became a full-time teacher one month to the three year date of my plan. And that's how I came to become a teacher. And I, because I love what I do and it's my passion, I think I have a natural knack for it, including my want to be good at it. Since then, I went and got my certifications as a teacher of adults. I learned about and methodologies about the teaching of adults. I learned about the different types of learners and so on. I just love everything about it.

Tara Edwards 14:47

Well, Dan, I can say, as a previous student of yours, it completely shows. I can also say in my own paralegal journeys, the things that you have taught me, I've been able to transfer it and translate it into the workforce.

Daniel Foster 15:01

That's great. Great to hear that.

Tara Edwards 15:03

Now, as a program coordinator, how does your role differ from being an instructor in the classroom?

Daniel Foster 15:10

As the program coordinator, I am the liaison between the law society and the college. I'm in charge of making sure that the accredited program is in compliance with all the law society's competencies, rules, regulations. I hire instructors, I train them. I'm actively involved in the acquisition of students. I train staff, I draft assessments. I keep the program up to date on both substantive and procedural laws and issues and so on. Being the coordinator means I have a lot of responsibilities to make sure we're doing everything in compliance for the law society, but more importantly, making sure our students are learning, that their journey is one, that's something that's, enjoyable but rewarding at the same time, and making sure that the students get their, qualifications up to par. I'm proud to say that our college has the highest first time pass rate for the licensing exam in Ontario. Our college has that, for a private college.

Tara Edwards 16:11

Congratulations. That's actually really huge. I was just talking to someone who is a paralegal out in Ontario and had said that the licensing exam is actually quite hard, so congratulations to you.

Daniel Foster 16:23

Yeah. We have over a 70, almost a 71% pass rate on the first try. We're proud of it or we have a great team.

Tara Edwards 16:31

I wanna switch gears for a minute. As British Columbia continues with a designated paralegal program and Saskatchewan rolls out its paralegal pilot program, what do you see happening nationally and what implications do you think it has for provinces like Alberta where the profession remains unregulated?

Daniel Foster 16:54

Well, the fact that, British Columbia and Saskatchewan and Alberta are all looking at options, I've heard that Alberta's looking at them as well, is a good thing. As I told you, Ontario is unique, licensees can provide legal advice and advocate, whereas paralegals and other provinces cannot. So I think as the other provinces see how our success is here and how it's growing and how, the public is, attaching itself to access to justice through more affordable services through a paralegal and I wanna remind everybody that's listening. Just because you hire a paralegal doesn't mean the service is gonna be any less of that, of a lawyer, everybody's different. There's good lawyers, there's bad lawyers, just as there's good paralegals and there's bad paralegals, there's gonna be both. I think as the profession grows and the reputation grows, I think all the other provinces will expand. But again at this current time, Ontario's still unique in that it's only in Ontario that you can provide legal services by, giving legal advice and advocating in the courts and tribunals here.

Tara Edwards 18:01

Do you think the other provinces are looking at what's happening in Ontario to determine how they're gonna implement, regulated paralegals in their provinces?

Daniel Foster 18:11

I think if they are looking at Ontario, I can't say whether they are or not, but if they are, they'll see the success that we're having here. It's clear to me. The paralegals are making an impact here. I mean, the footprint is small right now, but we're making an impact. People are starting to talk about paralegals. People are starting to say, Hey, I know about paralegals. It's slow. The growth of knowledge of paralegals is slow, and the footprint of it is small, but it's still there. And if the other provinces are looking, it is successful and I see a lot of good things, but just like any profession, you know, this is a regulated profession, the law study has a tribunal for bad paralegals and bad lawyers, and just as lawyers are disciplined for unethical issues or practice management issues or whatever, so too are paralegals. It's no different, but nevertheless, it is a positive thing moving forward.

Tara Edwards 19:14

For students or senior legal assistants who feel unsure about their next step, what would you want them to understand about timing and career growth?

Daniel Foster 19:23

Very good question. Well, in this profession, it doesn't matter what your gender, race, background, et cetera. You know what matters, when you go to a client or you talk to a client. What a client cares about is can you help them? Can you get the job done? Can you help them with a very difficult time in their life, whether it be a criminal summary matter, a litigation matter where they're being sued or they're going through a divorce and they need help with their uncontested divorce, with their spouse or partner. You know, students and legal assistants don't have to feel unsure about those steps because, there is a lot of room for growth in this career, especially being that, as I told you, women take up two thirds of it and that's only done a lot of good things for the profession, in my opinion. There is a lot of room for growth. I think all students and all senior legal assistants that are looking to expand on whether they should go into this profession from where they are, you know, there's a lot of room for growth. A lot.

Tara Edwards 20:29

How important has mentorship been in your career, and how can it help new or emerging paralegals navigate this profession? I.

Daniel Foster 20:37

Well, mentorship is everything. I'm a believer in diving into the deep end of the pool and learning to swim. But there are some people that would drown without the help, right? So learning to provide legal service is not the same as learning to ride a bike as I said earlier, I can tell you how to ride a bike. Until you sit on that bike and actually ride it, you're not gonna know how to do it. So it's the same with the profession. You have to get licensed and get out there. Do as much work as you can. Advocate, as much as you can. Watch as many cases as you can. Read as many cases as you can. Do as much research as you can, and never stop learning. Never stop improving, never stop moving forward. Always embrace moving and improving and, making sure the best you can be in this profession. Navigating it is difficult for anybody coming into it. When you start out, it's very difficult when you deal with, statutes, regulations, the, interpretation of those statutes, the application of those statutes and regulations, the forms, the nomenclature, the language, the ethics, the management of your firm. There is a lot to know, but the great thing about all that is, is that it's never going to end. You're always gonna learn. You're always going to expand, and you're always gonna enjoy it.

Tara Edwards 22:03

Would you recommend that paralegals just find a mentor, someone that they can talk to about their business or their cases, or the things that they're working on?

Daniel Foster 22:14

Yeah. There's two things I tell my students: one, for those of you that wanna learn fast. As I said, jump into the deep end of the pool and learn to swim. That's a good metaphor. But for the students who want to take their time and know they need to take their time and build their knowledge in a way that's a controlled fashion, getting a mentor is vital. Having a mentor show you the way is a very important thing. One of the things about this profession is it can be very aggressive. You could be someone who's quiet, a, tempered voice and you come across a very boisterous, loud, and big lawyer, or another paralegal, as a matter of fact, and you have to learn to deal with that well, having a mentor can help you learn how to deal with that. Mentors you many tools. They teach you how to practice, how to speak in the profession, how to deal with issues, that you may not understand how to find answers.'cause one of the key things a mentor can do for you is help you understand where to find the answers. There's two things that come with being a paralegal: one, someone comes to you, they have a legal issue and you gotta define it and, find a solution to their legal issue. Or two, they have, an unprecedented issue and you have to start from scratch and learn something about what they brought to the table. So having a mentor would be beneficial to anybody.

Tara Edwards 23:50

Mm-hmm.

Daniel Foster 23:51

mentor starts with your, your professors and your instructors. It starts with them and if you have a professor or an instructor that's willing to take the time to help you understand and post graduation still be there for you, which I do for all my students. To still be there for them, then that kind of mentorship can be friendship and it can be, a beautiful professional thing.

Tara Edwards 24:17

I am actually really glad that you said that, Dan, because you know, I met you in 2012 when you were my teacher, in Ontario, and you had such a huge impact on me, and I think it was last month where I, sent you a message and I was like, Hey Dan, I wanna pick your brain because I am co-hosting a workshop and, I just wanna know, what you think And, I thought that was really great that, not only did I have the ability to reach out but that you actually took the time to really trying to give me good information to make me successful in that workshop.

Daniel Foster 24:55

Yeah, I'm more than happy as you saw and you experienced, I didn't hesitate. I'm more than happy to be there for you. It doesn't matter whether 5, 10, 20 years have gone by.

Tara Edwards 25:06

Yeah. And I think that's really, great and, for the listeners, if you have not connected with your teachers in a while, I would strongly recommend that you just, shoot them an email and just let them know where you're at'cause you never really know, what may come out of that conversation.

Daniel Foster 25:23

You know, like I said, networking is so important, don't hesitate to stay in contact with all the people you've come across a path with. You know, that classmate or teacher could be the future of your career, just the fact that you knew them and your career path takes a turn simply because of that connection you have with that person that's already in your life.

Tara Edwards 25:48

Exactly. That's so true. And for our last question, Dan, do you believe that there is more than one version of success in the paralegal profession?

Daniel Foster 25:59

Yeah, there's more than one version of success in any profession, so it would be hard for me to define it just for paralegals. Success means different things to everybody. Success can be monetary success could be family life success could be freedom to live the life you want. I am so blessed to have all the above. I really sincerely am so grateful that this profession has allowed me to travel the world. I've literally seen the whole world. I have great friends, great family. I have a lot of great professionals in my life. I have a lot of students that have stayed in contact with me and I care about what I do. So, what success means to one person can be different for another, but I am very blessed that I can honestly say that I love my job. I don't care what day it is. I don't care what time it is. All I care is, am I living my life to the way I want to live it, in a quality way, in a, way that I'm living my passion fulfilling my needs. You know,'cause I'm a musician. I travel the world. I love my family and friends. I love my coworkers. I'm blessed. And that's success. That is true success right there.

Tara Edwards 27:22

Dan, I loved how we ended that last question, and I just wanna thank you so much for sharing your perspective and your experience regarding your paralegal journey. How can people get into contact with you if they have any questions or looking for a mentor?

Daniel Foster 27:37

Well, if they wanna mentor, it's hard for me to mentor across the country.'cause if you're in British Columbia, Alberta, or Saskatchewan, it's very difficult. But I'm always more than happy to answer questions to help people give them, guidance or direction. You know, one of the main things I do for people is give them direction. You can get ahold of me at my personal email at Daniel Ross foster@gmail.com. If you do contact me, make sure you just put in the subject header that you're contacting me from afar so I don't go, who's this?

Tara Edwards 28:11

So if you're looking for someone to give you, an objective, glance at the paralegal journey, I would highly recommend you get into contact with Dan. I actually looked in my inbox and I realized I had asked him for a reference a number of years ago when I had moved out to Alberta. As we conclude this interview, I wanna bring you back to the questions I ask you to reflect on as you're listening to this episode. What does a sustainable and meaningful career in the paralegal profession look like for me? And how do I get there? I really want you to take a moment to reflect on those questions. Think about your own path, your goals, and how mentorship, education, and intention can shape the long game of your career. If this episode resonated with you, I invite you to follow the podcast on Apple or Spotify and connect with me on LinkedIn. Let me know where you're at in your journey. This is Sister-in-law, the paralegal journey. Welcome to the conversation.