Episode 9: Interview with Nicole Lee

Transcript

Tara.edwards 0:01

Hello, my name is Tara, and welcome to Sister-in-Law, the Paralegal Journey, a podcast about the career behind the case files. Whether you work in law, work alongside the legal profession, or thinking about a career in this space, or simply want an honest look at the paralegal journey, you're in the right place. Welcome back to Sister-in-Law, the Paralegal Journey. In this episode, we're sitting down with someone who has experienced the legal support profession from multiple perspectives, law clerk, legal assistant, and now licensed paralegal. She's built her career entirely with firm environments growing intentionally at each stage. But beyond her titles, she's also someone who has invested deeply in others along the way. Nicole Lee began her career as a legal assistant at a downtown Toronto law firm. From there, she transitioned into a law clerk role, and now is practicing as a paralegal in Ontario. Her journey is one of steady growth, professional evolution, and mentorship. Something I have personally benefited from as she has been my mentor and close friend for many years. Her perspective, having seen this profession from every angle inside a firm structure brings insight that I think so many of you will connect with. As you listen to today's conversation, I invite you to reflect on this. Is your current role still growing you? And do you feel supported in that growth? Or have you simply become comfortable where you are and if you don't yet have someone who truly believes in your development, what might your next small step be? Nicole, thank you so much for being here and saying yes to this conversation. Please introduce yourself to everyone listening.

Loren Nicole 1:38

Hi Tara. Thank you so much for having me on. My name is Nicole Lee. I work at a downtown law firm, in Toronto.

Tara.edwards 1:48

Thank you so much, Nicole, for introducing yourself. Let's start at the beginning. What drew you to the legal field?

Loren Nicole 1:54

Actually it wasn't intentional. I think different things happened along my life, and it started at the age of 14. I just had moved from Quebec to Ontario and I was babysitting. I had a 4-year-old, little boy and he always used to brag, my mom's a judge, she helps people get their citizenship. So one day I was dropping off at his house after his mom got home and I did ask her, were you a judge? She said, yes she was a citizenship judge. I thought that was amazing. So now I'm in university, in my third year and one of the electives was criminology. Loved it from the moment I started. I did not know exactly where I wanted to go with it, but I knew I wanted to do something in the legal field, I just wasn't sure yet. After university, one of my friends in school was going to the college and doing the two year legal assistant program, so I took it. After the legal assistant program, I was able to find a job in Toronto. I moved back to Toronto, and started as a legal assistant.

Tara.edwards 2:53

I love your journey. Being 14 and being exposed in such a unnatural way. Who would think that, a 4-year-old would, help you connect with where your current role's going to be at some point? So you began as a legal assistant at a large downtown firm. What was the experience like for you and what did you learn in those early years that still shapes how you work today?

Loren Nicole 3:16

Actually that first job as a legal assistant, was a small downtown law firm of six lawyers, and three assistants in the whole firm. One assistant took me under her wing and she became my first mentor and the junior lawyer I worked with also became my mentor. They, knew I was new to this and it didn't matter to them. All they knew was I was university educated, I did the legal assistant program and they saw something in me. Eventually both those people left and I started to think, where am I gonna go after this? There was a large firm downtown Bay Street that was having a huge hiring blitz and I got hired. It was a senior associate. He knew I only had two years experience, and he said to me, I will hire you, but I want you to be the best legal assistant, the most competent and the most knowledgeable assistant that you could be. That is what I need from you, because I will become partner next year, which he did. In that role at the time was one lawyer, one assistant. I became everything he wanted me to be. The most competent, the most knowledgeable and being at a large law firm, you're able to do that. Every training sessions that was offered, I took. If there was a new program the law firm was offering and they wanted a test group, I was part of that test group. Anything that I could do to learn, I did. after five years that lawyer not only did he become a partner, he also became the leader of the group and becoming the leader of the group. Your role as a legal assistant also changes because you get, introduced to all manner of the workings of the firm. I was in commercial litigation for all my career. Working for a partner and the leader of the group gave me, an opportunity to always be chosen first for things that those volunteer groups.

Tara.edwards 5:00

So at what point did you realize you wanted to deepen your role and that you're capable of more than just supporting files? Was there a specific moment or was it gradual?

Loren Nicole 5:10

I think everything about my life has seemed guided and specific, and I say that after working for this same partner, suddenly the firm was changing to two on one. Which was a big thing back then. So I got, the most senior of law clerks, along with my partner, who was still, head of the group. And this senior law clerk was one of the most busy law clerks in our group. Again, commercial litigation, extremely busy. We were working in, a, part of the courts called the commercial list. And in commercial lists, sometimes you need a court date in two days, you might need a court date on a Saturday. That's how fast things run on commercial list. Our, department was extremely busy. Now I'm working for the senior partner and a busy law clerk, and I guess she realized that I wanted to learn and she started giving me more law clerks work beyond my assistant role. I wasn't sure if it was allowed though, but it didn't matter because I wouldn't say I was bored, but I think I had reached everything I could learn from my partner and then here comes this law clerk giving me law clerk stuff. It was like another spark in my mind, just blew and okay, this is something I want to do. And that's how I started deepening my role in the firm after I started working for her.

Tara.edwards 6:31

It goes to show, when you're ready to make that move, in your heart, you'll know. It's not a matter of, you know, everything because whether you're an assistant, a law clerk, paralegal, you will never know everything, but there's a period where you are like, I think I'm hungry for more. I think that's where often people have the question, what do I do? Where do I turn? You had a law clerk who noticed that and who was like, this person seems like they wanna learn. I think it's harder when you don't necessarily have that person paying attention. Like I, said to my boss that when we both worked at large Edmonton law firm that I had to hand something to the litigation paralegal and I said to her, do you mind if I just sit with you? And she's like, yeah, totally. So it's the, ability also to be able to say, you know, I'd like to learn from you. So we know that you've had someone who believed in you, but eventually you moved out of that legal assistant role into a law clerk role. what did that look like?

Loren Nicole 7:29

I actually did not want to be a law clerk per se. I knew it was what I needed as a stepping stone, but it was not really what I wanted to do. I became the law clerk's clerk, I guess, but she didn't give me the most exciting work. It's just that our department had so much work, I was able to do the stuff she could not do that trained me to do. I was doing things like simple motions, some of her undertakings, drafting some of the stuff that she thought I could do, but I was not billing for it. I was having an internal debate with myself if I should leave the firm at this point and go somewhere else. I was already there for 10 years and I knew I was a very good legal assistant, but was this what I want to do for the rest of my life? So because I was there for so long, I had a headhunter reach out to me outta the blue and she wanted to know if I would come for an interview, and I said no. I always used to wonder at that moment, after 10 years of this law firm, should I have gone?

Tara.edwards 8:30

It's funny because, I've never heard you struggle about your career, ever, so this is new because you've always been my, go-to to be like, what do I do? I'm a big believer of your path takes the path it's supposed to. And with both of us having a believing background, we, look at it from a different perspective and I think that we build certain stepping stones, and the stepping stones may not be a hundred percent, but they're what we need at the time that we need them. It's always a toss up, between what it is and what it is not what I can say to you as somebody who has been in your life for a very long time, and who has been able to be fortunate enough for you to mentor me, one of the things that I am grateful for is that I had the ability to have somebody who seen the profession from different angles that I had not yet seen. And that you were able to teach me how to look at the profession from those different angles. So for assistants listening who are wondering if they're ready for more, how did you know when you're ready? Or did you take the leap before you felt fully ready? What did that look like? And, and what would you say to the assistants who are kind of just thinking about that piece?

Loren Nicole 9:45

I was never going to leap into something if I knew I was not ready. That's just my personality. But I do recommend legal assistants, even if there's no opportunity in your firm, take the Law Clerk program. You'll not know after you take the courses, if it's right for you or not. I was given the opportunity to learn on a job. I never took the law clerk program, because I was given the opportunity to learn on the job. It was unfortunate that at the firm I was not given the title. But I do recommend as assistants take the program. You never know it's a title to put on your resume and something that you could say you've done. You don't need to learn Excel like I did, but it does help if I do a bill of costs. I do it in Excel. If I didn't know Excel, no one taught me. None of the other clerks that I work with now, works in Excel. I'm literally the only one because I took that as part of my 14 years on a Bay Street law firm. Learn things out of the box that you never know you need. Now that's big is e-discovery, and I think that's very vital to learn now. Very vital. Especially if you want to become a law clerk.

Tara.edwards 10:54

When did the idea of becoming a paralegal first come into the picture? And was it always part of the plan, or did it evolve as your confidence grew?

Loren Nicole 11:02

I had a deskmate at the Bay Street Law Firm, and she had taken the law clerk course hoping for a position at the firm, but none was being offered in our litigation department. And then we both heard about the Paralegal program. At that time, it was still being audited by the Law Society of Ontario. The problem was, there was no guarantee of certification because it was still being audited. Plus it was really expensive. But she started it anyways and she convinced me. So she was in the program, I think a good six months before I joined and by then we knew it was guaranteed to be certified. I think that's what I needed. I needed a guarantee. I wasn't gonna spend all this money if it was not gonna be certified. So I did it after work at night, I spoke to my boss and I said, I'm doing this, will the firm pay for any of it? And they did. They gave me the max that they could for learning, and I was able to do that at night after work. The program was an eye-opening experience and it brought me back to that 14-year-old me when I met that mother who was a judge, and I thought, finally, this was a path towards that kind of career. I still did not know where it would lead me, but I thought about then maybe I could do this eventually.

Tara.edwards 12:23

I'm getting shivers just listening to your story because, when I took it in Ontario, I was actually studying for the LSATs because, I knew I didn't wanna be an assistant forever. I knew that from year one. I was like, this is a great learning journey. This is a great stepping stone, but I can't see myself doing this forever. And taking the law clerk, it was this is more, information for me to say that there's options for me outside of assisting. And I had given myself a timeline of five years. Well, as you know, Nicole, life gets in the way. You have been with me as a single mother meeting Haven So, when this came about and when I had started researching, my thought process like this is a good in-between for me to be able to practice law in the way that I would love to practice it without having to be a lawyer because I don't know if I can necessarily afford that journey. What does real mentorship look like in your current role? Both you being mentored and you mentoring others?

Loren Nicole 13:21

I started mentoring in high school. I did not know where it would lead me. It was part of our grade to graduate. We had international students, we had students who were in foster care and other programs that we were told we had to take under our wings. I would take a girl'cause I was a girl. It was just easier and if they were from another school, suddenly starting at our school, I would help them get used to the school. It might not be anything to do with the actual lessons of the course, but just helping them through the school and getting to know whatever time they had there, just to get them, feeling comfortable and not feeling alone. That was my first mentoring. Then I also always had mentoring. Now that I'm talking with you, I realize I've always had mentors. It might have not have been the word, but I realize now I was being mentored as well and I love that for myself and I'm grateful, to the most high for having that because obviously they knew I needed it.

Tara.edwards 14:16

You're in a season where, there's little distractions. You can just focus on this. Oftentimes when we rush things and not, for any, other reason than we're running against our own rat race, but when we rush things, too soon we actually needed to focus and redirect elsewhere and then come back. Because believe it or not, when you come back, there's a strength that you needed in that moment that allowed you to reassess or to, focus on that you actually need to continue on in this journey, and you just don't know until, that happens. How important do you think mentorship is in the legal profession, especially for assistance and emerging paralegals?

Loren Nicole 14:53

I was guided with mentors and so very grateful. I know in my heart I was meant to pass down, my knowledge. I think mentoring, no matter the stage you are, mentoring is very important. Lawyers might not see it, but I still will maintain it's a very necessary part of your job to move forward. It's just not offered at all law firms, unfortunately. So you have to see if that's important to you within your law firm. If it's not within your law firm, you might have to look for it somewhere else.

Tara.edwards 15:19

For lawyers listening, what does it actually look like when a lawyer truly invests in a paralegal? And what can they expect in return from that investment?

Loren Nicole 15:28

I believe it looks like this. If a paralegal, and I'm speaking for myself in a way, if a paralegal is given the time and resources from a lawyer and if that paralegal is willing to learn and take in that knowledge, it's a win-win for both parties. The lawyer gets an up and coming paralegal they can depend on to do the firm's small claims or the tribunal work' cause this is all billable work. There's, no negative in having a paralegal and mentoring a paralegal within the firm that takes away from, the lawyer who is just a junior associate to do other things as well, to expand their own career. But if you have a paralegal, taking on, all the small claims for the real estate department, for the corporate department because there's litigation in all those departments. I think that's could never be a negative. Unfortunately, in the field, there is a negative connotation from lawyers about paralegals. I think if lawyers start to see the value of paralegals, that negativity could be dispelled. I'm not saying there's not bad paralegals out there. I met quite a few in the program but I think if a paralegal had, been under a lawyer, they would see that paralegals could be given that opportunity to create a lasting career.

Tara.edwards 16:44

Let's look at paralegals who, may not necessarily wanna go out on their own, but would prefer to work at a firm, because that is an option, or it could be an option if it's not yet an option. So what does that look like? That looks like the lawyers working on the more complex files and the other files like you said, the tribunal work, the small claims work, you can give that to your paralegal who would then be competent because guess what? They're learning from you and from a, firm profitability standpoint, well, you've got your paralegal billing, so that equals profit, which means that you can bring in more billable work. I listened to this lady and her, book is why paralegals are not millionaires sorry, paralegals should be millionaires and she really is great. I've listened to her book like three times and one of the things she talks about is how firms do not properly utilize their paralegals because they've got them doing assistant work instead of doing the billable work that can be done because they actually don't know how. The truth is they don't know how, because they've never looked at what this profession actually is, what it actually does, what our learning actually is. Because unless you have a paralegal who tells you, this is what I'm learning, or, you know, you've got someone talking to you about stuff they actually don't know. They don't know. And the question is how many of them ask?

Loren Nicole 18:02

Why would they ask? Because they're hearing the negativity. That's all they know is the negativity and the bad ones are more in the forefront of their minds. Instead of the fact that there are actually amazing paralegals out there doing amazing work. The lawyer I work for now, he was a sole practitioner and he had paralegals, so that's why he knows about the paralegals and he, found out I was he was like, Nicole could be doing more. And he always says, Nicole is a licensed paralegal, Nicole can do this. I've seen how she works as a law clerk. She is licensed. She needs to do more.

Tara.edwards 18:32

For the lawyers who don't, the question is, could your paralegals be doing more if you guided them? Or let's use the buzzword of this podcast, mentor them. If you actually mentor them and not looked at as, it's too much. I can't be bothered, because mentorship takes time, but it's an investment. So if we look at it from a money standpoint,'cause you know, that's what firms talk, we talk money, what is the cost of having a, viable paralegal? So in Alberta, we're not licensed but what is the cost of having a viable paralegal? Who does like the undertakings and stuff like that. They can't go to court'cause they're not licensed, but they can draft things or they can actually represent someone at landlord and tenant. They can do stuff like that under the guidance of a lawyer. They just can't give legal advice. If lawyers were to use their paralegals better, it actually is a money maker because, you know, everyone talks money. But when you don't use your paralegals to the degree that they should be used at, it takes away from the revenue. So, for legal assistants and paralegals listening, what should they look for in a workplace if they want growth?

Loren Nicole 19:41

I am thinking of my first law firm that was large and allowed me ample opportunity to do things. Is there a clear career path? Can you start off, as a legal assistant and transition eventually to a law clerk role? So it's important if you're asking in an interview as I'm starting off as a legal assistant, can I transition to be a duel role? Can I be a legal assistant and law clerk and get that support from the firm? Will the firm pay for my law clerk certification, or provide other training? Especially E-discovery. There's lots of courses, certifications you need to take to be certified. Will the firm allow that? And does the firm even have an eDiscovery department? I think that's where the law clerk program is going, and I think that's very necessary. I think for paralegals as well, does the firm pay for your mandatory, continuing professional development, courses? will the firm cover your paralegal insurance and your fees? That's important to know. Do you have exposure to mentoring for legal assistants? Will I have a mentor when I come here? So I think that's very important as well. How modern is your technology? Are there up-to-date programs? Do you have a document management system? That, to me, is so important. But you're looking more of a mid-size to large firm for those things. A smaller firm might give you the mentoring, might give you the training, the dual role, the more substantive work that you need. A big firm might not. It depends on what you're looking for and how far you wanna go.

Tara.edwards 21:10

You've always worked within firm structures. Have you ever considered opening your own paralegal practice, or do you see yourself thriving long-term in a collaborative firm environment?

Loren Nicole 21:21

It was never my intention to open my own practice. I am deadly afraid of public speaking. I am very social, one-on-one but when it comes to standing up and advocating for a client, I never thought about that for myself. I'm good at the behind the scenes. I wouldn't even have mind to be working with a paralegal and doing all of the work in terms of getting the pleadings prepared for that person to stand in front of the judge and advocate for the client. Now I do have that opportunity to work under the guidance of a lawyer, I could actually see the paralegal as a profession for me for the first time still under a law firm environment, but standing in front of a judge and advocating for the firm's client. I could actually see myself doing it and it's been 10 years in the making, and I finally see myself. I might not be that judge I thought about when I was 14, but this is kind of the way I see myself going eventually.

Tara.edwards 22:17

As you start to do things, you look at things differently. You say, where do I see myself? Where do I see myself fit in here? What does that look like and is it possible that we can develop situations the same way we have research lawyers, and knowledge management department. Why can't we have that for paralegals as well? So from a firm profitability level, you could have your, paralegal doing, research. Incorporating them into, the firm structure so that there is more money that is generated to make the firm profitable. If you could speak to yourself, when you were that first year legal assistant in Toronto, what would you say?

Loren Nicole 22:55

I think I have to tell myself to be proud of all my accomplishments, no matter how small I never, put myself down. I just can't wait to see where this road leads me now and I've always been that way. Always act with intention and always do good by people. That's why I believe in mentoring. That's why I believe in passing that knowledge forward. Remember, this is just a job that will lead you to bigger and better things. Learn everything that you can and move on. Don't be discouraged. This is just one part of your learning. If I had to look back, that's exactly what I would tell myself.

Tara.edwards 23:28

What is one piece of advice or lesson that you would want to leave with our listeners today?

Loren Nicole 23:34

This legal career is not daunting. No matter what you do, if you just wanna be a legal assistant, you wanna transition to a law clerk or become a paralegal, there is always someone who can guide you and help you find your next steps. It just takes you having the conversation and of course, listening to podcasts like this one.

Tara.edwards 23:53

Nicole, I just wanna thank you for being so open and thoughtful I know that having been with you for so long every angle from legal assistant, to paralegal, to everything in between, you mean for this profession to grow. You really mean for people to grow in their positions. I can't thank you enough for being in this podcast, and your career is such a powerful reminder that growth in this profession doesn't have to be rushed and it doesn't have to look a specific way. You've shown that moving from legal assistant to law clerk to paralegal can be deliberate, evolving path, and that whether you're in a traditional firm role or stepping into something more expanded, the foundation is the same strong legal knowledge, initiative and willingness to keep learning. I'm especially grateful for the way you've modeled mentorship, not just in your own career, but the way you invest in others.

Loren Nicole 24:47

Thank you, Tara. I've done everything in love, not just for you, but for every one of my mentees and I have enjoyed being here today. Thank you so much for having me.

Tara.edwards 24:57

I just wanna thank you again for being on this podcast. There is not enough thank yous in this world. What you've given us today is just so much to think about and so much to, just improve upon within ourselves. Let's reframe the question. Instead of asking yourself, am I behind or should I be further along by now, try asking yourself, what have I already built and how can I continue to grow from there? Sometimes the way we frame questions to ourselves can limit how we see our own progress. Growth in this profession isn't always obvious. It often shows up in skills you've developed, the confidence you've built, and the way you learn to navigate your work over time. Earlier in the episode, I asked you to think about this question, is your current role still growing you and do you feel supported in that growth or have you simply become comfortable where you are? And if you don't have that support, what might your next small step be? After listening to this conversation, your answer might feel a little different. Maybe growth doesn't mean leaving your role right now. Maybe it means recognizing where you're already being stretched, or identifying the kind of support that would help you move forward. Careers in the legal profession rarely change overnight. More often, they evolve through the experience you gain, the skills you continue to build, and the people who invest in your development along the way. And sometimes those opportunities come from places and at times you didn't expect. If this episode resonated with you, I invite you to follow the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Amazon Music, and connect with me on LinkedIn. Let me know where you're at in your journey. This is Sister-in-Law, the paralegal journey. Welcome to the conversation.