Episode 17: Interview with Judi Simms

Transcript

Tara.edwards 0:00

Hello, my name is Tara, and welcome to Sister-in-Law: The Paralegal Journey, a podcast about the careers behind the case files. Whether you work in law, work alongside the legal profession, are thinking about a career in this space, or simply want an honest look at the paralegal journey, you're in the right place because every paralegal was once the person asking their first question. Here, we're all about learning, growing, and supporting one another along the way. So welcome to the conversation. Welcome back to Sister-in-Law: The Paralegal Journey. Today, I'm joined by Judy Simms, licensed paralegal, business owner, president of the Paralegal Society of Canada, and one of the pioneering advocates who helped champion the regulation of paralegals in Ontario. Judy's professional journey represents decades of leadership, persistence, and commitment to building a stronger profession. As you listen to today's episode, ask yourself, What kind of role do I want to play in the future of the paralegal profession, and how can my own career contribute to building something stronger to those who come after me?" Hello, Judy. Thank you so much for being here. Tell us a bit about yourself.

Judi 1:08

Good afternoon my name is Judy Simms, as Tara has so kindly introduced me. I've been a paralegal since nineteen ninety-five. When I first started in this profession, it was not a regulated profession. I took a paralegal course, and, I was the only person that passed out of the eight people in the course. I almost immediately, got quite a number of clients because I spoke Hungarian and I had an ad in the Hungarian newspaper, and from a connection in restaurant that was attached to the Hungarian House, which is a community center for newcomers. I learned how to do real estate closings because my father happened to be a real estate broker. One day he said, "Okay, there's a closing here, so you figure out how to do it." I was actually acting for the seller, which was considerably easier than to act for the purchaser. The next one I had was acting for the purchaser. So that's how I got started in the business. It was kind of trial and error, flying by the seat of your pants and gaining more and more experience as we went along.

Tara.edwards 2:13

That's actually really exciting because the experience is required in order to do the job that you're doing, and it's really important to learn the skills as you continue.

Judi 2:23

We have mentored many students because we're the Paralegal Society of Canada, and many of them have come to us for internships, particularly if they couldn't find a spot to do their internships. The secret to this business and any legal business, is experience, having to live through the process. There's no better teacher than that.

Tara.edwards 2:43

I agree with you and, I think initiative is a huge skill that we need to have in this profession. When you began practicing, what did the paralegal landscape look like in Ontario, and what were some of the biggest challenges paralegals faced at that time?

Judi 2:58

Well, paralegals were an unregulated profession. We were starting to be a thorn to the Law Society and to lawyers whose practice we were infringing on. Lawyers tend to be very expensive a lot of people couldn't afford them. Paralegals, arrive on the scene, put ads, in the local papers, come to people by words of mouth, and people start going to paralegals because they're much more affordable and they're much more accessible. So all of a sudden, these people are complaining that, "Hey, these people are unregulated, unlicensed, they don't know what they're doing, and they're cutting into my practice. Law Society, do something." At first, the Law Society wasn't interested in regulating us. They were just trying to sanction us. So then, various paralegal organizations formed and, the organizations decided that they were going to move towards self-regulation and, we started to lobby for self-regulation. We found some lobbyists to speak up for us, make representations to, the Ontario legislature. We did various outreach programs where we, found paralegals who actually wanted to be part of our organization and who were seeking self-regulation. There was people who actually wanted to be in this profession and wanted to be regulated. By that time the colleges thought well, this is a good program to offer. Then the Law Society decided we if anybody is going to regulate these paralegals, it's going to be us.

Tara.edwards 4:23

What initially motivated you to become involved in advocating for the paralegal regulation.

Judi 4:30

They asked me. Th-there was a group of us who were in these paralegal organizations and, they said, "You know, we need people to advocate for us. We need you to make a speech. We need you to speak up." And then ultimately they needed a spokesperson so, somehow I got elected to be the spokesperson. Whenever somebody called and there was an inquiry about, somebody speaking, having an interview with a magazine or, going around to the different schools, to represent the organization, somehow I would be the one to go. That's how I got involved, kind of speaking up for the profession. I was part of the group that o-originally went to the legislature to make representation on behalf of paralegals so that we could be self-regulated and from there it just kind of evolved.

Tara.edwards 5:17

Earlier you talked about, the Law Society giving you resistance, with respect to first allowing paralegals to even do the work, what other resistance did you encounter from inside the legal profession and outside as well?

Judi 5:34

Well, inside the legal profession... I mean, when I first started out in this business, before we were regulated, anybody could go in court and speak on somebody's behalf. wasn't the problem. But the judge would sit on the bench and say, "Well, you don't have insurance, and say to the client, "Are you sure you want this person to represent you? They have no insurance, so, you know, and, and they're not licensed. Are you sure you want this person to represent you?" So that was a really good introduction for the client. This happened to me once or twice, but I did have insurance because I was never foolish enough to be in this business without insurance. one day I thought, "Okay, I'm not taking this anymore." So I said to the judge, "Excuse me, I do have errors in omissions insurance." He just, sat there and he said, "Okay, then proceed." So I proceeded, but it still wasn't an easy haul. The larger firms, after we got regulated, really didn't have a problem with us because we weren't, cutting into their business. So they really could have cared less. We had to fight tooth and nail just to get a commissioner stamp. and then they gave us commissioner stamps after about five years of advocating, just for small claims. And then about four or five years ago, they decided, let them be a notary." So now are notaries. But that was not easy. Now they've got a course in family law where you can get certified as a family law specialist.

Tara.edwards 6:54

When I moved from Ontario and came here, I had an office manager at one of my jobs say, "Oh, are you a commissioner of oaths?" I was like, Legal assistants are allowed to be that here?" And I thought, wow, this is interesting." What a contrast. How has regulation changed opportunities for paralegals both professionally and publicly?

Judi 7:14

Well, I think that the public view of paralegals is much different than what the Law Society would like the public to have. As I told you, it's actually the public demand that has, spurned the Law Society into accepting that paralegals are capable and are a lot more than, they would like them to do, because there's a big demand. Everybody is entitled to legal aid, and there's a limit to how much legal aid you can get. The public, I think almost immediately accepted paralegals as another means of assistance. Even now, they're looking for wider acceptance of paralegals. They're looking for paralegals to be able to do more things for them. There's the odd person who will not accept, your assistance because you're a paralegal, but in general, I would say there's very wide acceptance of paralegals.

Tara.edwards 8:05

I look at out here in Alberta, and Alberta Association of Professional Paralegals are trying to make their own mark in terms of regulation and paralegals and, I had a conversation once, with a lawyer and said," what was your thoughts?" That person was quite okay with the regulation of paralegals. It just means that, you have competent people helping. But I don't think the Law Society would ever go for it out here." I thought that was really interesting, and we're not talking about someone who's a baby lawyer, we're talking about someone who has been in the profession for a quite a number of years.

Judi 8:37

But then if you look at it from the point of view of a lawyer, he thinks, "Well, I had to pass the bar exam. I'm a specialist in the field, then this upstart comes along and wants to take my job."

Tara.edwards 8:50

I can see that point of view, but I just wonder if we looked at it from a different lens, like if we worked together, how much would we be able to help the public? How much access to justice would that create?

Judi 9:02

But there's another point. Think about paramedics. paramedics first came on the scene, said, "What's a paramedic? I wouldn't trust them in an ambulance to look at me or touch me." And that was even before a paralegal ever appeared on the scene. But look at what they think of paramedics today. It's, it's a reputable profession. It just takes time.

Tara.edwards 9:24

What do you think the role that the Paralegal Society of Canada can help play to advance the regulation in other provinces?

Judi 9:35

Well, we are the Paralegal Society of Canada. So what we can do is we can offer support. You can ask us to speak for you. You can ask us to provide news. We can start providing news of paralegal education in other provinces. I know many provinces would like to move towards paralegal regulation. If people from other provinces want to join us, the organization is here and we're here to help. What matters is how many advocates do you have for the profession.

Tara.edwards 10:04

That makes so much sense, 'cause I honestly never thought about it that way. I've always thought about it from the fact of, okay, well, you know it's government, they need to see numbers.

Judi 10:13

Just need to know how many are out there, and then you need to canvas the colleges and find out what their enrollment is and how many people are aspiring to be in this profession and if you can survey the public and find out how many people would accept dealing with a paralegal. Is there, a desire from the public to have another mode of assistance that they would accept?

Tara.edwards 10:35

I do think so.

Judi 10:36

Okay. A backlog in anything where a paralegal could be helpful.

Tara.edwards 10:40

Yeah. Definitely, I would say there's backlogs in quite a few places that, I could see paralegals being good in those places. At the heart of any regulated professional is public confidence, paralegals continue to build that public trust?

Judi 10:57

Well, by being out there and doing a good job and letting people know that they are out there and that they are professionals. In Ontario, people became aware of paralegals because more and more of them were turning to paralegals for assistance. Even though we were not licensed, the word was out there that, "Hey, these people are available. They can help you." And there were ve-venues where, they didn't care if you were there. For example, making appearances in small claims court. Are you able to make appearances in small claims court in, in Alberta?

Tara.edwards 11:30

Yes, we can make appearances at small claims court and in tribunals and commissions, and our small claims court is 100,000.

Judi 11:38

Well, if you are providing representations, can you advertise? Is it illegal to advertise services,

Tara.edwards 11:44

it's not illegal to advertise. It's just frowned upon. As long as out here you don't give legal advice, that's the big thing. You cannot, give legal advice, but you can help them through everything else.

Judi 11:55

Mm-hmm. Well, then you've gotta get some, advertising out there saying "Are, are you facing any legal challenges?" "Call a paralegal, maybe they can help." Something like where you're not giving legal advice, but you're helping them with paperwork. You're, helping them through a process. You know, find a paralegal to help you through your process, you're not giving legal advice, you're just helping them through the process.

Tara.edwards 12:18

You know, that's really interesting because, I had tea with a lady the other day, and she, asked, "What do you do?" And I said, "Oh, I'm a paralegal." So I told her the firm that I work at, and then I told her the things that, I can do in the firm, and I told her I can basically help through processes, and I told her the laws that I've worked in and, you know, the certifications that I have. She was like, "Okay, that's good to know." And you can kind of see the wheels turning. Now, will anything come of that? I don't know. But like you said, at least the wheels are turning now, right?

Judi 12:47

You have to make paralegal as somebody who can assist people as a known commodity.

Tara.edwards 12:52

When future generations of paralegals look back at this profession's evolution, what do you hope they understand about the fight for regulation?

Judi 13:02

Well, I would say that they would have to have some knowledge of the history, but almost all professions are har-hard fought for and hard won. Is it going to be important to somebody who, let's say, in 20 years becomes a paralegal and the road is open and they can do all kinds of things are they going to think about how you got there and how you got regulated? Probably not. It's like for a lawyer, for many years, there was no law school. You went and read the law with a lawyer, and they established law schools. So do current lawyers think about the fact that at one point in time, you didn't go to a law school, don't think they think about that. It's an established profession.

Tara.edwards 13:39

If there was one piece of advice that you could give, any paralegal in the profession, whether it's in Ontario or other provinces, what would that be?

Judi 13:49

Be persistent. Not only in lobbying, if you wanna be regulated, you're gonna have to lobby, and you're going to have to fight for it. And you're going to have to have your name out there as a recognized profession for any paralegal. But even as a paralegal, if you want to get an established practice and you want to work as a paralegal, be persistent. Find a niche. People know who you are, and let people know that you can help them. And not be afraid.

Tara.edwards 14:14

Oh, I like that. I really like that. Judy, I just wanted to thank you so much for this insightful information because you have been a wealth of knowledge in terms of, the, paralegal journey in Ontario itself. And as you are talking, it gives me goosebumps because I'm like, "Oh, my goodness. What you're talking about at the beginning, it feels like that's kind of where we are out here in Alberta.

Judi 14:37

What it sounds like to me as well.

Tara.edwards 14:39

I think your story's just so powerful because it not only tells us how the regulation started in Ontario, but it gives people hope, right? And not feel like you're beating a dead horse,

Judi 14:52

There's room for this profession. I think in Ontario there's room for this profession. Have not reached the full scope of their abilities. There's a lot more that a paralegal can do than that which they are allowed to do. So you know, we're regulated, and we're going to continue to grow. You're not regulated, but on the other hand, from the sounds of it, you're able to do a lot of things that paralegals in Ontario, when we first started out, couldn't touch. then you think, "Okay, so if you get regulated, what is it that you're looking for that under regulation you can do that you can't do now?"

Tara.edwards 15:26

I think to answer that question, it's more for myself because I can't speak to a full, body of people, I think it would be fair for me to be able to say it is that legal advice piece, because you can have all the training in the world, and you can help people through the forms, and you can do all of that, and that people will be very thankful for that. But when push comes to shove, they need the legal advice piece.

Judi 15:48

Yes. Yes.

Tara.edwards 15:49

If that was me as a public person, I would say, "Thank you so much, person, for helping me do this or do that but you still can't tell me the strategy behind it, the case law behind it. You still can't dissect that piece behind it. And I think that piece behind it is very valuable. You need that piece. That is the piece that you really need in order to help a person move their case forward.

Judi 16:15

you need to be able to speak authoritatively.

Tara.edwards 16:17

Yes. Thank you, Judy, for joining. This has been a wealth of knowledge, and I cannot thank you enough.

Judi 16:23

Well, you're very welcome.

Tara.edwards 16:24

Judy Simms'' journey demonstrates that the future of any profession is shaped by professionals willing to do more than just simply participate in it. It is built by those who advocate, those who lead, those who challenge limitations, strengthen standards, and commit themselves to not just their own success, but to the credibility and sustainability of the profession itself. No matter where you are in your career, You have the ability to contribute to the profession's growth through leadership, education, advocacy, and ethical practice. So let's reframe the question. Instead of asking yourself, Why should regulation matter to me?" Try asking, "What actions can I take in my own career today that will help strengthen the profession for the future?" In the beginning of this episode, I asked, What kind of role do I want to play in the future of the paralegal profession, and how can my own career contribute to building something stronger for those who come after me?" Before we finish today's episode, I wanna leave you with something to try this week. Identify one meaningful step that you can take to strengthen not only your career, but the profession as a whole. This could be investing in professional development, joining advocacy professional organizations, mentoring newer professionals, supporting stronger standards, or engaging in important conversations around regulation and public trust. If this episode resonated with you, I invite you to follow the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you enjoy listening. Following the show helps more people discover these conversations and ensures you never miss an episode. I'd also love to continue today's conversation with you on LinkedIn, tell me how you answer today's reflection question, and share your biggest takeaway from the episode. Whether you're a student, a legal assistant, or a paralegal, I'd love to hear your perspective. And if you know someone who would benefit from today's conversation, please consider sharing this episode with them. Remember, every experienced paralegal was once the person asking their first question. So keep learning, keep growing, and keep supporting one another. This is Sister-in-Law: The Paralegal Journey. Welcome to the conversation.