From Evidence to Cut-Through: Research That Lands

With guests Professor Elizabeth Hill and Professor Rae Cooper (Australian Centre for Gender Equality and Inclusion @ Work) 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

There has to be some form of punishment. For the woman. Yeah, there has to be some form. Listen to you. Do not cut me off. I'm in the middle of speaking. I don't care if you're in the middle of speaking. You're in the middle of a debate. It's over. Glass ceiling? Dude, it's a ceiling made of fing bricks. You will never break it.

SPEAKER_06 0:16

I'm the leader of the opposition. I will not be lectured about sexism and misogyny by this man. I will not be left.

SPEAKER_05 0:29

What if we stopped arguing with the loudest voices and focused on the ones that might actually change? This podcast helps us use the gender compass. Presented by Plan International Australia. Moving the middle is about cutting through the noise and having conversations that actually land. Less shouting, more listening, real movement. Let's move the middle.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Welcome to Moving the Middle, the Gender Compass podcast. I'm Hayley Couple, Deputy CEO of Plan International Australia. And I'm Dr. Rebecca Huntley, Director of Research at 89 Degrees East. We're joined by two of Australia's leading voices on gender equality, Professors Ray Cooper and Elizabeth Hill from the University of Sydney.

SPEAKER_04 1:09

Together they lead the Australian Centre for Gender Equality and Inclusion at Work, a hub-driving research that directly informs government policy and workplace change. These are the professors you go to when you want to understand gender equality dynamics in the workplace. And so in this episode, we're going to dive into their work and how the Gender Compass Insights are helping policymakers and academics craft communication strategies which cut through. Ray, tell us a little bit about yourself and your role at the centre.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

Hello, thanks for having us on. So I'm Ray Cooper and I'm the director of the centre. I'm a professor of gender work and employment relations, and I have worked at the University of Sydney doing research in these kind of issues for about 25 years, and I lead the centre with Liz.

SPEAKER_04 1:56

Yeah, and you've worked with Liz for a very, well, I'm about to say a very long time for a while, but I'm going to ask Professor Hill as well. Tell us a bit about yourself and your role in the centre.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

So yeah, I'm Liz and I'm the Deputy Director of the Centre. This was Rayan, my COVID dream.

SPEAKER_04 2:16

Oh wow, what a dream.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

But that was a moment, of course, at which the gendered inequalities of the pandemic became very clear, not only to us, but of course to households and to the public. So we decided it was time to pull our expertise together formally. We'd work together in a whole range of settings. I'm a professor in political economy, also at the University of Sydney, and work in and around the kind of the work care policy architecture, labour markets, and you know, with an eye to kind of macroeconomic kind of developments. And so we felt that bringing our expertise together, Ray, of course, as she will tell you better than I will, is focused on industrial relations, regulatory settings, careers, progression, and workplaces. So it's kind of a nice coming together of the different, the multiple aspects that inform women's labour market experience and the way in which that shapes Australian productivity, performance and growth. And in the pandemic context, that was a really that was the pointy end, you know, what we were going to do in this context of crisis. And so we thought it was time to really kind of develop, I guess, a setting in which we could work on eliciting the best data, um, driving a next generation of research and training the next generation of researchers to really shift the dial on gender equality at work and in care and in society more broadly in the economy. I'm tempted to say once and for all, but um that would be slightly ambitious.

SPEAKER_04 4:02

We know when it comes to gender equality, occasionally it's a bit of a cyclical fight, isn't it? We keep having to keep revisiting issues. So the centre is a kind of locus for all of these researches and these issues, and your new relatively new major five-year grant is a really fantastic project that will try and bring together researchers from across Sydney Uni and other institutions to really understand, you know, really under support the National Working for Women Strategy for the federal government. This work is being funded by the Office for Women Within Prime Minister and Cabinet. Tell us a bit about the origin of that grant and that work and what it's seeking to do.

SPEAKER_03 4:43

What's interesting is that it's not just a grant, actually, it's a partnership. And Liz and I have never done something quite like this before. And actually, I don't think government has either. And from conversations that I've had with colleagues, uh, you know, academics and um people working in government internationally, it's a pretty unique model, which is essentially that our research team, which includes our centre led by myself and Liz, but also UTS, the Centre for Indigenous People and Work, and also colleagues at Melbourne University, and lots of others besides. So it's about 23 of us all together, are working in partnership on trying to answer the question of what's going on with gender equality and inequality in work and care. What are the aspirations of Australians around work? What are their experiences at work? What do they see the problems as being? And what potential solutions do they see and what difference could that make? And so we're able to work with government in a really applied fashion to sort of bring those voices of Australian workers, particularly Australian women, but also, you know, talking to Australian men as well about their experiences in the labour market and work, and to get, I guess, right under the hood and to bring what are some of the kitchen table conversations that go on in families about what's been happening at work, what are the worries, what are the fears, what are the the great things. And we're working, when we say we're working in partnership, so it's not just that government's given us a grant to sort of go away and come back in five years, but we are going to work on a key theme that relates to the national strategy on gender equality working for women each year. And we're going to do uh a lot of data collection, including a big national survey, a tranch of qualitative focus group work to come back to government and talk to them about what's going on with specific thematic areas, but also what's going on with key cohorts in the sort of broad group of employees in Australia. So this year we're starting off by looking at the issue of flexible working in trying to think about how we construct that in a good way and trying to think about uh avoiding some of the risks that we know are associated with flexible working and, you know, around precarious work, for example, or around lack of choice that people might have in relation to flexible working or some of the traps that people might face if they work in a inflexible workings in terms of their careers. But we're also looking at a key cohort, and that's what we're calling them mid-career years women, which is hard to say, which is essentially women who are 40 to 55, the classic sandwich generation, what's going on with them in work and care? Are we meeting their needs? What do they want? What are they getting? And each year it'll be a different theme and a different cohort, but the same methodology that's going to be applied. So it is um pretty exciting to be able to work in that level of partnership and with that level of deftness, I suppose, to sort of think each year what's the big issue that's emerging, what's a critical concern that's coming up in the labour market, how does that connect to the national gender equality strategy?

SPEAKER_02 7:50

Ray, congratulations. That's really groundbreaking work and very exciting for us on the outside to watch what comes out of it. How did you, or why did you decide to bring in the gender compass as part of this work and how are you thinking about applying it?

SPEAKER_01 8:02

The gender compass offers, from our point of view, as we're, as we were designing up and applying for this partnership, offers an opportunity to really think uh carefully about research translation. So the programme of work at the partnership is unique in the sense that it centres workers' voices, Australian women's voices, Australian men's voices, and their experiences at work in how in the household, in society, which is different to a lot of other forms of research that we and others do, that you know, it works with existing data sets. So centering people's voices at the heart of the project, but then thinking about how that can translate into a meaningful change across Australia's policy architecture, across our workplaces, across our households, communities, families. And that's, as you know, probably better than us. Um that's a communications challenge, right? And so we saw in the work that had been done at the gender campus today when we were um drawing this up, an opportunity to get some, again, data-informed insights on how to translate that research that we um anticipated gathering and are now gathering into a really kind of powerful message that can we hope shift things, shift the context within which policy is made. You know, our politicians are very responsive to community attitudes, community expectations, community hopes and aspirations. So in the gender compass, we see an opportunity, just as uh the research program we're delivering back to government, it's data informed, and this is an opportunity to bring in data insights that can help drive that research translation piece that will be so important in making uh not only substantial change, but really baking that change in across all generations.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

And can I add to that? Another thing that I found really attractive when I first saw Rebecca presenting on the Gender Compass was trying to think about, well, essentially we coalesce, I think, in what the Gender Compass is trying to do and what we're trying to do through this partnership is around make meaningful sustainable change. But in order to do that, we have to influence government and give them the information that we need, they need. But we also need to be able to talk to the community more broadly. And so thinking about what are the when we speak in a particular way about the data that we have, and there's a particular academic way of um presenting data and you know, talking, talking about, you know, the findings that we have. Liz and I try very hard to speak like normal human beings when we're talking in the media or we're speaking at public events. Well done. You do you're both nailing that, I've got to say. Thanks for the feedback, Dr. Huntley. Um so, but and that's really important. But I think sometimes thinking about the way that when you think that you're speaking in a way that's connecting to the thoughts, fears, dreams of ordinary Australians, whether they're workers or whether they're managers or whether they're CEOs of big companies, to think about what's in their mind and to think in that kind of empathetic way about how they're hearing what you're saying rather than what you're saying. And so that's um it's that was pretty important to us as well. So it it's both about that change strategy, but it's also about the way that we communicate with the people we need to connect to in order to get to that change.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Yeah. And and I'm gonna jump back in and say, we're on a roll now, we won't stop. Just in the same way that we're interested in gendered patterns in labor markets and what kind of policy settings might um shift that dial. We're really cognizant that there are gender patterns in how messages get heard and where people are and where the starting points are. So the gender compass, you know, provides that insight on uh where men versus um a relative sit relatively a relative to women in their capacity, in their beliefs around gender equality and their capacity to kind of hear new messages. And I guess that's the point. You know, we're all these two kind of programs of work, you know, all pointing to an effort or trying to drive an effort to craft and push towards, have a hope for gender equality. So it's not just about women getting ahead at the expense of men, um to rectify the current context where men are ahead in many um aspects of life at the expense of women, but really to bring people together and to see and understand the mutual benefits across society between young men and young women, young um middle-aged women, middle-aged men, etc., etc., in the way in which that can create a much more vibrant and sustainable society for all of us. So that those insights that come out of the gender compass are really um useful and powerful for the work that we're doing.

SPEAKER_04 12:51

Um you were both kind of kind of early involvement in the compass and in the academic steering committee. Uh, and one of the one of the outcomes of the first wave of the work that surprised and shocked many was the size of the rejector group at 17%. So a little bit bigger than I thought it was going to be, but um, as we know, broadly aligns with some other data globally and as well as other data in Australia, which shows you know some backlash against, let's say, DEI and gender equality initiatives. I wanted to get a sense from the work that you've done separate from the gender compass and particularly in the workplace, are you finding, are you finding some kind of backlash? And if so, what does it look like?

SPEAKER_01 13:37

I won't start with backlash, but I'll start with kind of um changing aspirations. So our data definitely shows very clearly, and um this is coming, beginning to come through in other people's work as well, that particularly um young men who have had their first child, so a very particular group, that cohort of men um approach their future, what it's gonna take to craft a future success, a successful future at work. They think about that in very similar ways to young women. So they really understand that they're going to need workplaces that provide good, flexible work opportunities, that don't impose an economic penalty, um, that don't kind of shift their, you know, send their career off the rails. They understand that they need accessible, high-quality um childcare, elder care, that they need um access to pay parental, those kinds of things are there. So what we've found in our national survey we work over the past kind of six or seven years is that there is this convergence amongst young female workers and young male workers. So they're converging in the way in their aspirations around their participation in paid work and what that would look like and how long they want to work for, but we're also seeing a convergence between those two cohorts in terms of um their the way they the supports they expect to need and to lean on in order to manage the work, their work and the rest of their lives. So in that sense, that that's not a backlash, that's actually a convergence that's quite interesting. The challenge that we then face is well, how do we get workplaces and policy settings um in a in a format that are actually going not going to disappoint, that are actually going to elevate and let those aspirations um flourish. So I guess that's one one of the findings that is accounts. And now for the bad news.

SPEAKER_04 15:39

And that's a nice counterfeit finding. But yeah, the bad cops are about to come in and tell us about it.

SPEAKER_03 15:45

Thank you for your optimism, Liz. Um, this might sound bad, but I actually thought that 17% was low.

SPEAKER_04 15:51

Oh, no, that's good.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

But that might be because I'm doing quite a bit of work at the moment on quite male-dominated workforces. But I also think I think we're at a time where things are shifting in the labor market and the economy, right? We certainly have done a lot of shifting around education. Um, and work and the labor market, uh, you know, who we are, is a really um part of our identity, right? So I think when things start to shift and when some groups feel that they're being sort of knocked sideways or knocked down by someone else advancing, I think probably we shouldn't be surprised when there's a bit of a reaction to that. And we have seen some quite enormous change, you know, across the economy in the labour market in recent times. Now, one of those changes has been that women have become very highly educated and quite motivated around credentializing and getting good jobs and maintaining labor market attachment when they've got young children, um, and that they have every right because of that investment to in the same way that young men and you know, um, boys do to be able to get some payback on that. Um, so I think different groups in the labor market sort of feel that a bit differently or a little bit more, I don't want to say it emotionally. Um and I think some, and they're probably for different reasons. So, you know, you can see the, you know, young men in our labour market, there is a particular group of young men in the labour market who are actually doing it quite hard.

SPEAKER_05 17:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:20

Um, and who are struggling a bit actually. Um, and they will tend to be, you know, I don't mean the sort of masters of the universes who are going into the professions and, you know, running them in the way that they always have. I kind of mean the young men who leave school earlier or who vac vocationally trained or who, you know, um maybe don't end up in the labour market where they want to be, maybe are not in a secure job. I think they they're kind of saying to us a little bit, like, uh, I'm matter too, and actually I'm not having the greatest of experiences in the labour market. So why is all the attention on on But I think we've also got going on, like there are some real deniers in the labour market, and they will tend to be people who have more power. Um, and so that means you do have a there there is some backlash and resistance at the, I guess, in the more powerful ends of the labour market, uh, who are quite comfortable actually with the current situation, many of them, um, or who are not aware of it because they haven't exposed themselves to some of the challenges that um, particularly women, um, but many other people face in the labour market that aren't the same as their own career trajectory. So there's I I don't know. I think there's a bit there we've got to recognise as basically the labour market is made up and workplaces are made up of human beings who are quite emotional, have all their identity tied up with their work. So we probably shouldn't be surprised that they all feel a bit differently and there's different reactions to what some people would see as progress.

SPEAKER_04 18:41

Yeah, and I think I think we know that that what we might describe as backlash uh with regardless of what community is is resisting, um, it's always a perception of loss, of actual or perceived loss of status. So actual loss of position or perceived loss of position. Um and certainly I think what the qualitative research that we did for gender compass showed that for young men at the kind of the at the you know at the very precarious end of the labour market or and who haven't done well at university or haven't done well in in education for whatever reason, when they hear you're privileged because you're a man and women aren't privileged, it doesn't quite accord to their lived experience. And so there may not be outward hostility to the message, but there is confusion, like, well, that's not really how I've experienced it, which is very different than a CEO just wanting to go back to a time where he could have all his mates around the boardroom and now he's got to have all these people that he wouldn't have a beer with. It's very different.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

I mean, I think in the Australian context, which is very different to the US, for example. Yeah, there's a lot of stubbornness and resistance at the top rather than backlash. Just like, no, and we see this coming through really clearly in the kind of waves of resistance to hybrid, particularly working from home, right? From the top end of town, old white men, essentially. Um, and it's just a stubbornness and a resistance to the what Ray was pointing to, you know, the changing structure, the changing composition of our labour markets. And that's what I think is really um powerful in the Australian context and makes us a little bit different and maybe a little bit more hopeful in terms of um compared to somewhere like the US. And having just come back from the US, I gotta say, we are worlds apart from the US.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

You know, I just don't think any of the um, and I hope the gender compass, if your research says the same thing, but my anecdotal, Rebecca, would suggest that I just don't think Australians think in the same kind of way as um, you know, as is espoused by some political leaders over there, actually, around what the direct competition is between, you know, someone who's uh you know has a particular skin colour or background or a particular um gender or identity. Um I just I don't think that flies as well in Australia. I think we've got a bit more of a sort of um pub test, I think, than um Americans. Oh, great.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

Definitely it's heartening. Ray, Liz, thank you so much for joining us today. The work you're doing has so much national significance for so many of us, I think, and it's uh really exciting to hear how you're using Gender Compass as a part of that huge and wonderful body of work. So we look forward to following along over the next little one.

SPEAKER_03 21:28

Thanks for looping with us.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

Make sure you follow, share, and subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Thanks for listening. Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_05 21:37

Presented by Plan International Australia. Moving the middle is about cutting through the nominees and having conversations that actually land. Less shouting, more listening, real movement. Let's move the middle.