Moving the Middle: The Gender Compass Podcast
Why do conversations about gender equality so often stall — at work, at home, or even at the school gate? And more importantly, how do we move them forward?
Backed by the groundbreaking Gender Compass research, Moving the Middle is where data meets real stories. Each episode explores how leaders, communicators and changemakers are using fresh insights to engage the ‘moveable middle’ — those Australians whose views aren’t set in stone, but who hold the power to shift the national conversation on gender equality.
Hosted by Hayley Cull, Deputy CEO of Engagement at Plan International Australia, and Dr Rebecca Huntley, Director of Research at 89 Degrees East, the series unpacks what works, what doesn’t, and what you can try in your own context. Think of it as your practical guide to making gender equality conversations easier, more effective, and more impactful.
So whether you’re leading change, crafting campaigns, or simply navigating those tricky dinner table debates, join us. Together, let’s move the middle — and move forward.
Moving the Middle: The Gender Compass Podcast
Culture Change Without The Culture War
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Featuring Lainie Cassidy, former Director – People & Inclusion at KPMG
There has to be some form of punishment. For the woman. Yeah, there has to be some form. Do not cut me off. I'm in the middle of speaking. I don't care if you're in the middle of speaking. You're in the middle of a debate. It's over. Glass ceiling. Dude, it's a ceiling made of fing bricks. You will never break it.
SPEAKER_06I'm the leader of the opposition. I will not be lectured about sexism and misogyny by this man. I will not. And the government will not be lectured about sexism.
SPEAKER_05What if we stopped arguing with the loudest voices and focused on the ones that might actually change? This podcast helps us use the gender compass. Presented by Plan International Australia. Moving the middle is about cutting through the noise and having conversations that actually land. Less shouting, more listening, real movement. Let's move the middle.
SPEAKER_03When it comes to creating a gender-equal workplace, most organisations know why it matters. But the real challenge is how to bring people along for the journey, from boards to teams on the ground. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01So how do you actually design strategies and communications that don't polarise staff but instead invite everyone in and drive lasting behavioural change? I'm Hayley Cull, Deputy CEO at Plan International Australia. And I'm Dr. Rebecca Humpley, Director of Research at 89 Degrees East. Welcome to the latest episode of Moving the Middle, the Gender Compass podcast, where we explore how research and real-world stories can help you shift attitudes and spark more constructive conversations about gender equality.
SPEAKER_03Each episode we're talking to leaders who are applying gender compass in their work, showing what works, what doesn't, and what you can try in your own organisation to move the middle.
SPEAKER_01And today we're talking about, I think, what probably one of the most important settings to really advance gender equality, and that's the workplace. And how can Gender Compass really help HR teams in particular, people and culture managers and boards to create a truly gender equal environment?
SPEAKER_03Our guest is Lainey Cassidy, Director of People and Inclusion at KPMG Australia. Lainey and her team have used Gender Compass to guide their internal communications, leadership engagement, and inclusion, diversity and equity policies.
SPEAKER_01And it's been my real pleasure to work with Lainey and in how she's been developing these resources internally for KPMG. And we're going to explore how Gender Compass Insights help KPMG shape culture from the boardroom to individual teams, how boards can play a pivotal role in creating a gender-equal workplace.
SPEAKER_03This is Moving the Middle, the Gender Compass podcast, brought to you by Plan International Australia and 89 Degrees East.
SPEAKER_01Welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_04Thank you for your time. Thank you for having me, Rebecca. I always welcome a conversation with you around this topic. It's fascinating.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. Look, can you start by telling us how your what about your role at KPMG and what your team focuses on when it comes to kind of people and inclusion?
SPEAKER_04Sure. Well, I mean, put simply, my role is straddled across both inclusion, diversity, equity and also mental health and well-being. So everything from ensuring that people have equal access to opportunity, that people feel a sense of psychological safety and they're able to speak up and we can listen in. And obviously looking at both the support for our inclusion, diversity and equity networks, and then more broadly, how do we ensure that leaders feel equipped along the way? I could go on about my role, but put simply I think it's just fostering the voices of our people and ensuring that leaders also feel equipped to understand what it means to be inclusive leaders in the workplace.
SPEAKER_01And when we talk about people for KPMG, what how many thousands of employees do you have kind of across the country at all different kinds of levels?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Well, I think the last we we checked, Rebecca, it was around the 10,000 mark at a national level. Um, but obviously we share our work across the globe as being part of a member uh firm globally under KPMG.
SPEAKER_01Yes, lots of people there.
SPEAKER_03Lots of people. Lainey, tell me how has the workplace inclusion landscape changed in recent years and what new challenges are organisations like yours facing when it comes to creating gender-equal workplaces?
SPEAKER_04Oh, well, why don't you start with an easy question? Just a small one there for you. Look, I think the landscape has evolved immensely, and you know, I always like to lead with the positive. And in all of my conversations that I have, both internally but then also externally, through some of the alliances that we're part of, and I'm uh grateful to have conversations at roundtables, it's we are shifting the dial and we are moving forward. So we can sometimes get caught up on the narrative of what's playing out more broadly, but most certainly I think we've maybe not moving fast enough in some areas, but the landscape is moving in the right direction. Uh, I think from a um before this year, and what we've been focusing on is how we leverage the framework that's come from the gender compass more broadly across IDE so that we can continue to engage our trailblazers. Hello, myself being one of them, and how do we move that middle? Um, and so I think that's the point of difference that I'm seeing as the shift and how I'm trying to influence both my conversations internally, but also externally, whether that's from a professional point of view, but even um in the personal world that I live to. So I think it's how do we have the broader conversation so that we move that middle and we have more people uh fighting the good fight?
SPEAKER_01Uh I was really lucky, Lainey, to come and present the first wave of the gender compass. I think it was to your executive or your board, I can't remember, it was one of them first. It was both, yes. And then what was really clear out of those conversations is that lots of those leaders were saying, okay, what does this mean for how I talk across segments and across the workplace? Not so not just to trailblazers, but people who might be, you know, not antagonistic to gender equality, but not see it as particularly relevant. What was it about that work that made you think we've got to take a fresh look at how we talk about this?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, um, I mean, it was it was several things there, Rebecca, but essentially it was around the purpose of ensuring that we're providing a culture where everybody feels seen, supported, and empowered, no matter of their background, identity, or life stage, to be their best, and that they have equal access to opportunity and so that they are able to succeed. So we really wanted to, you know, talk to everybody and bring our trailblazers along in that segment as well. What I really loved, and what our board and executive really loved, as well as our leaders across the networks, is that kind of leading with shared values, and you see that in all of the dialogue that we leverage internally, but also that was certainly something that came through as strong from the framework. Making it real and recognizable really stood out to me. And so we've, you know, woven through some of those effective language tips through storytelling and howing and showing how our people have been able to have access to the programs that we run, but we've done it in a deliberate way to use everyday examples, using inclusive language like us, we, everyone, and really emphasizing those shared values as well as shared issues for consideration.
SPEAKER_03Is it making a difference, Lainey? Tell us like what sort of engagement are you getting when you are using that kind of language?
SPEAKER_04I mean, our recent survey tells us, yes, that we have seen a positive increase in the sentiment of IDE internally within KPMD by 5%. So I'm not sure it's just the principles that have done that. We've got several other things that sit under our strategy. But most certainly I know in conversations that I'm having with our networks, I had one just this morning, as well as if we're thinking through some of the articles that we're running and the human stories, we're getting really positive readership of those stories where we've started to focus on what can be done, not just what's wrong, and really inviting that collective action. So the readership of our messaging has increased, yes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, you often in the conversations we've been having about this, you talk about the gender compass and everything else that you're finding at the moment really asking of leaders to call people in and not call them out. How does that work in practice, do you feel, across teams and business units at KPMG?
SPEAKER_04Well, it starts with kindness, really, and curiosity, I think. And so we're hopefully some of the programs that we run and some of the material that we provide our leaders and everybody within the workplace allows them to not necessarily just have the capability but the confidence to engage in conversations in a really respectful and meaningful way. And I think part of that allows people to show up differently. Um, we've got an allies in equity program as well, and that's really for any allies that are worried about having a conversation and they don't have it for fear of getting it wrong. And so we've got allyship labs where they can come, it's a real safe space to help them unpack how to have the conversation or approach somebody without kind of fear, fearing that they were going to say the wrong thing or use the wrong language. So I think it's really just providing the tools, framework, but also just a bit of a safe to fail. Like if you don't get it right, it's okay to say that you don't know. And we've kind of tried to provide that, you know, permission for allies that want to move from passive to active allies through programs and some of the guides and some of the work that my team's doing.
SPEAKER_03Amazing. Lainey, obviously, one of the things that comes through really strongly in the gender compass research is the need to engage men and boys in the conversation and make sure that they feel that they've got, you know, that they can see themselves in the stories that we're talking about, not just as allies and contributors, but perhaps also as beneficiaries of gender equality. That when we achieve gender equality in our workplaces and in society, that everyone will benefit. Um, is that something like how are you thinking about that? How are you making sure that the conversations that you're having about gender equality are including men in all those ways?
SPEAKER_04Of course, well, I mean, our CEO is a champion of change, Andrew Yates, so I think that that you know signals strong leadership for sure. We also have a strong fathers' network in terms of our parental leave policies, some of the stories that we're sharing, or the success stories of the utilization of policies like that, really are highlighting stories of you know, fathers taking some time off from how they're positively caring for their children at home, and what that's allowed is female participation back into the workforce. So we're trying to again provide real practical examples of how some policies have translated into action. Our fathers' network is growing and we're trying to really centralise what that means in terms of active allerships and equality more broadly.
SPEAKER_03Amazing.
SPEAKER_01We've had a lot of buy-in and a lot of uh excitement about the gender compass from the leadership level. How have some of the insights about the work trickled down from the leadership to the broader organisation? I understand you've developed some guides and tools for internal champions off the back of the gender compass. I'm going to be interested in how it's being socialized beyond the board and the more senior leaders such as yourself.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, definitely. Um, well, we've, as I said, as part of our approach for communication guides that we've developed, which is really a two-pager, so again, keeping it simple, uh, we've briefed in our IDU champions or those that are the sponsors of our IDE networks across each of the diversity areas. And I have to say, they want us to be really loud on these, you know, the shift in narrative, which is interesting because I had thought maybe a subtle shift would be all that we needed to do. But there's been real strong support from our trailblazers to say, actually, no, we should share this because this makes good sense. We want to move the middle and we we can't do it all on our own. So by going across our IDE networks and briefing in our IDE ambassadors, Rebecca, we've had nothing but positive and support from that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because there was always a bit of a sense, certainly, from the researchers and from the team at plan that we didn't want the gender compass to be seen as a criticism of the trailblazers. You know, you've been doing it wrong, and and um uh because it's certainly not that, but it's just a uh, you know, evidence-based resources for them in the communications and and advocacy challenges that they have.
SPEAKER_03And I think what we're you know, what we're hearing from trailblazers in so many places, it sounds like it's aligning with what you're saying, Lainey, is that trailblazers they know that the kind of the standard ways of communicating and using that trailblazer language, it isn't working with those other segments. We're not winning over that kind of that that middle. So I think the trailblazers get that we need this, right? That's what you're seeing, is they understand, they understand that we need to shake it up and do something different.
SPEAKER_04I think that's right. And in my communication, it's been what we have been, the way that we've been communicating to date has got us to where we are, and it's been exceptional where we are to date. So it's not to say that the communication hasn't worked, it's it's served its purpose for where we are now. Now let's kind of rally the troops and get more people behind us, and it's giving our trailblazers the energy to say, yeah, absolutely, let's get more people behind the messaging.
SPEAKER_03Amazing, amazing. So then think you've done more than many to start embedding this. So I'd love to know what your advice is, Laney. What advice would you give to other HR leaders or boards who are looking to use Gender Compass to create a more gender-equal workplace? How can it guide their decision making and their application of IDE policies?
SPEAKER_04I think it goes beyond just policies, if I'm really honest, and it's the everyday examples that's really, really important. What we've done through some of our strategic messaging principles is we've looked at the people life cycle and woven it throughout that. So it's not just a point-in-time initiative or a policy that could be subject to change in the future, but really how we're communicating across the various programs that we offer everybody at KPMG, depending on where they're at in their life stage and also their career. So we started to really work it through in terms of we're building a workplace that supports every career and every life through every chapter. And I think that that's made a real difference, and we've been able to hopefully make it stick beyond just a policy and weaving it throughout the people life cycle. It's looking at onboarding programs, but it's also when we're launching, you know, talent IDE programs or we're sharing stories of a successful promotion, we're thinking about depending on where somebody's at, whether you're a parent, whether you're needing, you know, to show up for elderly parents, whatever it might be, we've tried to think about it from every area.
SPEAKER_03But Lainey, I want to hear what's next. What are you thinking about next in terms of how you might use this work or other work? Where are you going next in terms of you know building this positive conversation around inclusion and equality?
SPEAKER_04I think we need to continue to use everyday examples through storytelling. I think the rubber hits the road when they don't just hear it through messaging in a policy or even as part of the onboarding, but bringing it to life by way of successful human stories, how somebody has positively benefited by a program or a pathway that we've provided at KPMG. So I don't, I think it's just continuing to use everyday examples. I think inviting collective action, that is what we need to really focus on. We've kind of started to use leading with shared values, making it real and recognizable, painting a positive future. But what we're really going to be focusing on as we're leading into 16 days of activism coming up as well, is inviting that collective action. So one thing to get together and really understand it, but now let's move for change together collectively.
SPEAKER_01Amazing. Lani, thank you so much for sharing such practical insights and examples of how gender compass can guide workplaces towards equality. And thank you for being such a uh a great advocate of gender compass, both inside KPMG and outside.
SPEAKER_04No, thank you. And I mean, I've said this before, Rebecca, but I I strongly believe that the framework can be applied more broadly, and we've seen that time and time again within KPMG.
SPEAKER_03Good luck to you. Wish me luck. Very excited. Can't wait to follow along and hear where you go. Thank you. You can explore the Moving the Middle messaging guide and learn more about gendercompass at plan.org.au.
SPEAKER_01And don't forget to check out the segments 101 to get to know the six audience segments behind this research.
SPEAKER_03Make sure you follow, share, and subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Thanks for listening. Thanks so much.
SPEAKER_05Presented by Plan International Australia. Moving the middle is about cutting through the noise and having conversations that actually land. Less shouting, more listening, real movement. Let's move the middle.