Say It So It Lands: Practical Messaging For Moving The Middle

Featuring Dr Rachel Howard (89 Degrees East)

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

There has to be some form of punishment for the woman. Yeah, it has to be some form. Listen to the general population. Do not cut me off. I'm in the middle of speaking. I don't care if you're in the middle of speaking, you're in the middle of a debate. It's over! Glass ceiling! Dude, it's a ceiling made of f bricks. You will never break it. A man does something, it's strategic.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

A woman does the same thing, it's calculated.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

What if we stopped arguing with the loudest voices and focused on the ones that might actually change? This podcast helps us use the gender compass presented by Plan International Australia. Moving the middle is about cutting through the noise and having conversations that actually land. Less shouting, more listening, real movement. Let's move the middle.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Ever noticed how unpaid caring work still falls mostly to women?

SPEAKER_03 0:52

Or how rigid expectations stop men from opening up about their mental health.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

These everyday realities affect us all. So how do we talk about them in a way that brings people on board? Hi, I'm Hailey Culb from Plan International Australia.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

And I'm Rebecca Huntley, the Director of Research at 89 Degrees East.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Today we've got a very special guest with us.

SPEAKER_03 1:11

We do. We have my colleague and fellow director at 89 Degrees East, Dr. Rachel Howard. So not only is Rachel Director here, but she's worked extensively in the areas of women's policy. She's on the board of Our Watch, and she is an early champion and of the gender compass and uses it a lot in to shape their thinking on gender equality. So we're so happy for you to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Thank you. We're really excited to talk to you in a bit more detail about the Moving the Middle messaging guide, really the part of this project, a part of Gender Compass, which is where it all becomes really practical. It's the what to do, what not to do, what to say, what not to say. How can we really practically take the research insights and make them come alive in the way that we're communicating? So I couldn't imagine anyone better to be talking to you than you about this work today. I wanted to start by asking you a very broad question. Why is it important to you that we can engage with Middle Australia?

SPEAKER_02 2:09

I think it's so interesting to reflect on some of these really heated debates that we see in Australia. And they can be so alienating with all of the best intentions, they can be so alienating. And if we think about the gender compass and the segments, you've obviously got the trailblazers and then you've got the rejectors, but there's there's so many people in between who are going to be more susceptible to messages around perhaps changing some of those cultural norms. It could be reducing the gender pay gap, it could be preventing violence against women. And so when you look at the middle, those that haven't got their views so attached, you have an opportunity to make a bigger impact so long as you get the messaging right.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

So when it comes to this group and listeners who have tuned into the first episode or the mini episodes will know that the movable middle is how we talk about a little over half of the Australian population who fall into the groups of hopeful, of conflicted, of moderate. Really, they're the people who are not necessarily against gender inequality, but they're not staunchly for it either. And we see that there's a real opportunity to engage them positively and move them to be more advocates and more supporters of the work, you know, that the gender equality movement is moving towards. With that in mind, I think one of the key things that comes up first and foremost is trust. And as a communicator, you'll know all about that, how important trust is. Can you talk to us a little bit about who a kind of middle audience might trust and why trust is so important when we think about communicating with these kind of people?

SPEAKER_02 3:38

Yeah, I mean, I think what I see a lot is that a lot of the work where you are really advocating for changes to social norms is led by the Trailblazers. The Trailblazers know and believe this uh so instinctively. It's part of their DNA essentially. And so sometimes, in their passion, they might forget that other people are getting on with their lives and living different passions and setting different objectives, and so then they therefore forget that others might not know the rate of gender-based violence or the gender pay gap, for example. So even weaving some of those facts and figures into messages is a really basic but often neglected piece that I think that is so important in building trust with the movable middle. And the spokesperson themselves have such a responsibility in this climate where we see more and more that individuals will gravitate to other like-minded people. So making sure that you're not using jargon that can be alienating or even you know humorous if used in in the wrong context. Using the right language to uh to approach the audiences are going to be s susceptible and ensuring that you are not alienating them is just so important in terms of building that trust.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

It sounds simple, but really what you're saying is you have to be really thoughtful about not only what you're saying, but who is saying it, how you're saying it. There's a lot in there, and so we're gonna unpack a lot of this over the next 20 minutes or so, which is really exciting. Um, I'm interested in this framework that uh we've been talking about through the research, which um it'd be great if you could explain it to listeners if you can. The value barrier action vision framework. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

It's a really again back to simple, because I think sometimes simple gives us a nice structure by which to frame some of this work. It's a really simple way to break down your objectives. So as uh Rebecca mentioned, I work with 89 on an organization called Equal Workplaces. And this is an organization that exists to help employers reduce a gender pay gap, and it was developed res in response to Wajia's move to publish gender pay gaps. So if we think about the gender pay gap and we think about an employer, and an employer is really important, even from the gender compass, because we know that amongst even the rejectors in the gender compass, they see the workplace as a really sensible place to address some of these issues. So starting with the workplace isn't such a bad idea. And Wegia provides that incentive now because, of course, they're publishing gender pay gaps. So if you think about the steps in the moving the middle guideline, there's value, barrier, action, and vision. So by value, we're trying to tap into shared values. If I think about the gender pay gap and working with employers to help reduce their gender pay gaps, well, a shared value is that promotions and salary levels should be based on merit. That there's many people who can disagree with that. We're not even going to equality there, we're talking about it being based on merit. My view, having you know been in my career for decades, is that too many women overlook for promotions, and that obviously then results in a gender pay gap. So I'm very passionate about seeing women promoted. The barrier in that instance, so the thing that's standing in the way of achieving that vision, is in a lot of cases unconscious bias. Now there's many reasons, but for the purposes of this exercise or talk about unconscious bias, that means that many leadership teams are male dominated. And even if they don't realize it, they'll be promoting men because they're comfortable with them, they understand how they work.

SPEAKER_03 7:20

They send a younger version of myself.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

It perpetuates from there. Now, the action enabled somewhat by this uh the public reporting of gender pay gaps through the Workplace Gender Equality Agency is that employers can use that process rather than it just being, you know, tick and flick, and we've got to provide this information every year. Employers can actually look at, okay, well, I have a gender pay gap, I have to report it every year, I might as well chip away at it. Through that process, use it for good. Just okay, well, what is happening here? What can I do? It's going to be published every year. You might as well, for the purposes of your internal and external communications and reputation, address it. So employers can take action. They can use that process to identify some of the drivers of that gender pay gap. And then, of course, the vision in this case is that employers are taking more responsibility on reducing their gender pay gap, which then leads to constructive and meaningful changes in workplaces that benefits everyone, but particularly women who, as I said, I believe have been overlooked for promotions for way too long. And that's a really massive step if we're to think about social norms and achieving gender equality here in Australia, because the reality is if employers take responsibility, if educators take responsibility, if parents take responsibility, we start to look at a whole of societal change that can and should help address some of these really wicked problems that we've been facing for a long time.

SPEAKER_03 8:44

And from your perspective and the work that you're doing in workplaces around the gender pay gap is a really good example, is that I think that's for a lot of people, they don't understand it. They kind of go, what do you mean? Like if, you know, there's two there's two architects they're being paid the same if they're doing the same job, all that kind of stuff. So I think it's it's a it's a kind of an issue, a systemic issue that that has material impact and um getting people to understand it is really important, including for the continued support for the publicly released data. I think it's interesting too, as well, because for a lot of the movable middle, I would say hopefuls and and moderates and everything, they're not going to gravitate to news about this in their media can media. They're not gonna be out there in the newspaper or whatever online looking for stories about this. But the workplace can be a critical channel for information because an internal newsletter on this could be more impactful for them than a front page story. So the workplace being an important channel of information.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

And it's amazing. As part of our process, we actually sit down and do one-on-one interviews with high potential staff in an organization because these other women you cannot afford to lose if you're going to close your gender pay gap. You want them to be promoted. So, what are they experiencing? What are they feeling in the workplace? What are the issues and the barriers from their perspective? And they there's a massive range, obviously, but usually the process identifies a little pearl of wisdom that can be then integrated into the whole organization gender equality strategy. So from there you start to see real and meaningful difference. But by sitting down with these women, you realise they're not thinking about the gender pay gap. They're so busy. They have good jobs. Aging parents, young children, they're working really hard to get that next promotion, or they've just had the promotion and they're really, really, you know, recognizing this is an opportunity I'm gonna prove myself, as we do as women going into overdrive. So I was doing a lot of these um interviews around the time that the gender pay gap uh data came out, this year in particular, and people are like, Oh I hadn't even, I hadn't even seen it. Like they're so busy uh focusing on just day-to-day, very full, very satisfying lives. It hadn't even cut through to them. So having some workplace information on it is so important and learning from these women. But then we also hold workshops with men and women, and you typically get the well, why should a CEO be paid the same as a personal assistant? Because people don't understand what the gender pay gap actually is and how it's calculated. So again, it's using the gender compass to recognize that not everybody's living and breathing, breathing this every day, as people like us might be as trailblazers, but it's recognizing that some of those basic facts, how the gender pay gap is is calculated.

SPEAKER_03 11:36

Can I jump in and ask Rachel a question? Yeah, because um I'm interested in when you I mean, a lot, uh particularly in the messaging guide for gender compass and some of the data would not come as a surprise to you, but when you're doing workshops with men and women around this, are there some uh insights from the gender compass that um that you take into that conversation that you're having? Because I imagine in that group you'd have everything from potentially conflicted and rejectors to moderates to hopefuls across the Absolutely, and instinctively now I think I'm wired.

SPEAKER_02 12:10

Wired mim. Oh, okay, I know where you're coming from. So you can, absolutely, and it really is an incredible tool to sort of think, okay, well, I recognise that this person needs to know this particular statistic, or we need to unpack this a little bit more and give this individual a bit more time to have their say. Exactly. Because their voice is important. Yeah. Just because we don't all agree doesn't mean that they can't speak up. And then you'll hear people come from all sorts of different perspectives. Like some of the older men in these workshops will talk about their daughters and granddaughters in a really favorable way because they're wanting to make sure that they have all the opportunities ahead of them. So you can see that everybody's coming at this from different perspectives, and we have honed our um workshop deck quite closely to the gender compass to make sure that we're covering off these different audiences. Yes. There is no point talking to a rejector in the same way that you're going to talk to them as a trailblazer. If you want to achieve change in an organization, you need to meet them where they are. That doesn't mean glossing over the message, that doesn't mean watering it down. It just means that your words will have more impact.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

So that's a really beautiful way to lean into the messaging principles that come through in the gender compass work. Um, and really excited to have a bit of a chat about each of these. The first one I think speaks really nicely to what you're talking about there, Rachel, which is leaning into shared values. And in that um framework that we've just talked about, values come first. When you're talking about what the way of constructing your message, values is there at the beginning because it builds trust. That's really the key to it, isn't it? It's all about building trust with people at the very outset of that conversation. That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

And as I said, it's hard to disagree with the idea that promotion should be based on merit. Absolutely. It's very difficult to disagree with the shared value that people should be equal and treated equally with equal opportunity. So, yes, if you bring it back to those very core principles, you're starting from a really positive place.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

One of the second messaging principles and comes up very strongly across all uh phases of the gender compass is uniting with inclusive language. So we and us together and building that sense of belonging. That can be a bit challenging for trailblazers because many of them, and even some hopefuls, because they see the kind of the path of gender equality and feminism about hard-fought territory for women and girls. And the idea that you would expand that to us and way feels like a watering down. But I would say it's not surprising at a time of interlocking crises and high levels of insecurity at every level, from the geopolitical level to the kind of household level, that people want to sense that we're more united than we are divided. I think there's a really good part of this idea that we don't want to polarize too much. And so this is not necessarily saying that women and girls don't have unique challenges or unique needs, but that fundamentally we're stronger together. So that that is a that uniting with inclusive language is incredibly important. Can be challenging for people who, for trial bisers who particularly feel that difference could be lost in that conversation, but it's critical to that movable middle. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

I think what often strikes me with that one, I think about my work, you know, working for an organization like PLAN, where you know we're in the for-purpose space, we're in the social impact space, and we work with and as part of and alongside movements all the time. That's our kind of core business. And I think within that, when you're talking to people who you know agree with you, you already use that language because you know that's the language that's going to get them on board. We together, let's move this forward. That comes so naturally when we're talking with people who we know share our views. It's only logical that that's also going to work when we're talking with people who might not share our views but who we want to build shared views with. I think there's something in there that is about just kind of reaching across that divide and being more inclusive in that way. Um, it's the only way that we can get people to see that they're being called in and drawn in and that they are actually part of you know the future we're trying to paint for them, absolutely. Writing men into the story.

SPEAKER_03 16:06

Again, a little bit of an extension to that. I think what's interesting too, and to go back to a point that Suzanne made, is that if we're trying to engage men and women and all we offer men is a critique of their structural power, but we don't give them a role to play, it just leaves them feel it just leaves them feeling guilty and and like I don't know how I can contribute. So I think the two really have to come together, like this is this is what the situation is, and this is a constructive role you can play.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

Well, especially when you reflect on the rejector sentiment being that it's actually gone too far, that equality's been achieved to the point that it's gone actually too far. If somebody's coming from that perspective, then obviously you need to bring them in in a way that is meaningful to them as well.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

I think this one is a little contentious sometimes. You know, we've spoken to a lot of organisations about the gender compass, and quite often, particularly when we're talking with trial blazers, understandably, um, their their concern around us saying there's a key principle here that we have to have to write men and boys into the story. There can be a concern that that's giving too much ground and that this is this is not about this is the one of the few movements that is not about men and boys, and why are we having to do that? I think it's more pragmatic than that, and I think the research sort of talks about writing them into the story but not as the main character. Um but finding ways to do that where they can see themselves reflected and reflected positively, um, that they're benefit that they'll benefit from gender equality, that they're um allies in helping to build it and drive it. Um but it's an interesting, it's interesting that that one is one that often gets people um feeling a little defensive.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

I can understand it too, because of course this is about achieving equality. Um, and there's a reason we need to achieve equality, it's because we had never got there previously. So if you think about the workplace again, and again, a very important place because we know that even the rejectors think the workplace is an obvious place to to work on gender equality. Um if we think about the workplaces, you want to bring the whole workplace along, the whole employee body along, not you know one or the other. And so you really need to take them on the same journey so that you're achieving a better outcome for the culture of the workplace. Um and so in that respect, yes, it is it is entirely necessary to write men into the story.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

The fourth principle uh is probably good cons advice for anything, I suppose, Rachel, making it real and recognizable. It's about kind of really relatable and tangible examples of gender inequality and of what gender equality could could drive. Maybe even avoiding the words gender equality altogether. Um, but those really relatable examples. Can you tell us a little bit about why that is coming out so strongly, do you think, in the research?

SPEAKER_02 18:41

Well, I think that uh, as I said before, people are so busy. Everybody's just busy getting on with their life, and even the women who stand to benefit from this aren't necessarily stopping and thinking about it themselves. So if you can bring it to them in a way that makes a difference to their day-to-day or that resonates with them, they're going to stop and pay attention in a way that they wouldn't otherwise.

SPEAKER_03 19:02

The fifth principle about centering the solution was again another really strong finding, um, which is you know, if you have too much problem, people are overwhelmed. You really sometimes need to you need to address the problem, and as you said, Rachel, maybe a key statistic that is will actually uh, you know, uh cut through is really an important part of that. So don't assume that they understand what the problem is. Then move quickly to, you know, how do you actually address that issue and what might be the available solutions. And I often find in this that you don't have to promise that you're going to solve this overnight. You can talk about some very kind of straightforward small wins that have happened more recently or have happened in other organisations that can help. I mean, I think that there is, you know, still, you never know, gender compass wave three, uh, a bit more understanding about how we talk about the problems and the language we use, but it was very clear from the compass that people want to go address a problem in a way that is relatable to me, and let's talk about some solutions.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Number six is to avoid polarising language, a sort of sense that a non-confrontational tone can maintain trust and help people feel open and you know willing to engage in the conversation. Again, this is another one that can be a little triggering. For some of us who are more inclined to be activists or to be kind of you know railing against the patriarchy or however you know you might want to put it. But an interesting one that that is coming up again so strongly as something that um either resonates or alienates that movable middle.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

And I think it lines up nicely with too uniting with inclusive language because I think sometimes we can get stuck in terms that mean something to us in our world but don't actually mean anything to other people out there and can be used against the cause essentially, because they can become a point of humour if if they're overused. So, yes, bringing people along with you, making sure that the language communicates with them rather than all talking amongst ourselves and not necessarily getting to that movable middle.

SPEAKER_03 21:02

I mean, it's challenging too, we've got to put in the larger view of where we are at at a society at the moment. If people are feeling unsafe and insecure, particularly in an economic sense, bringing highly confrontational language around gender into the workplace may not be the best way to engage that movable middle. I think that there are plenty of places and plenty of settings where if you want strong language you can find it. I think it's I think too again in the education setting as well, people are looking for, you know, they're looking to understand the problem but to address it. And so, yeah, I think that any anything that reinforces polarisation, doesn't matter whether it's gender equality or the rest of it, the community are reacting quite badly to that, of course, at the moment. And finally, painting a positive future, we saw with all of the all of the dial testing, I mean, and we've structured, we structured a lot of these narratives, knowing a lot of this insight, you know, you're saw an uptick for all the segments if you talked about you know addressing gender equality in particular rigid um views about gender as something that if you address it will have a better whatever that is better workplace better society better stronger families stronger communities there's always a bit of an uptick there so that shows hopefully a at least a desire to imagine a more optimistic and positive future if we address some of these challenges.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

And again inclusivity for everyone absolutely so I guess that's a really good place Rachel to jump off onto storytelling. This will come up for you I'm sure every day. And often you know as communicators you're having to think about you know where do I use data and stats and facts and where do I use stories and what are the right messengers for those stories. Tell us how the power of storytelling comes into this work.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

I think it comes back to that point that we've made quite a few times about people just being busy and there being a lot of noise out there. You need to cut through all of that and and relate to them and their everyday lives. So having the right messenger sharing a story that cuts through with the different segments is really important because it's going to mean that those segments can relate back to the message. And when we talk about going to different segments we're not changing the meaning of the message. It's just for this particular segment we probably need a statistic to back it in. Or we need somebody with lived experience to tell you what they've been through versus with this particular group we probably need we might need to use some of the jargon. So if you're telling the same story but you're framing it in different ways. And by reflecting on the different impacts this has had in different lives in different circumstances and using that lived experience you can really cut through in different ways.

SPEAKER_03 23:55

Rebecca what does your research tell you about the power of facts and statistics these days are they cutting through or less so than they maybe have in the past I think that my belief is that one of the things we have to determine what are the facts that shift, the facts that persuade and the facts that just um confuse people. So you know um downloading a million facts disconnected from either your understanding of people's uh emotional state or the broader broader uh broader narrative doesn't work I think I'm also thinking I'm always thinking about persuasive facts and foundational facts. So what's the foundational fact you need people to know for them to agree with some of the other things that you need to get them to agree with? So that foundational fact might be just the prevalence of let's say family and domestic violence, right? Because a lot of people may some people rejectors might not believe that but you want people to go oh wow actually I didn't realise it was that high because everything else you would say to them about that without that foundational fact would seem kind of not useful or not helpful. I think you also have to give them some time think about identifying a fact that is going to shift somebody. So for example if we address the gender pay gap in our business that would mean A, B, and C, you know, for us. More attention of female staff that would mean less A. I don't know. So part of it is like what's the information they need to know and what's the information that will allow them to shift anything else can be irrelevant. It's the hard thing is working out what those facts are and then how you encase that in accessible language relevant case stories from a messenger that is credible. And sometimes interestingly that messenger is somebody that is like me for some people like who I can go either have a beer with that person or hang out with that person. And sometimes it's a person that that person needs to hear from so it may be different to them but they need the credibility of somebody from that particular position like that person wants that thing. So it can be really you know while there's some basic principles it it can be a kind of an interesting recipe to come up with the outcome needs a lot of those things as part of it. Yeah so I mean look it's it's absolutely possible I mean I'll give you a really small example we'll have an opportunity in our um in our conversation with KPMG who use the gender compass quite extensively they found it's really important to use lots of different in their DEI case studies where they're talking about particular policies is to have a real diversity of people talking in about that, right across age, ethnicity, household type and sometimes the policies that we would normally associate with let's say working mums, sometimes it's better not to have a working mum at the centre of that case study. Perhaps it's better to have a man in their 30s who's got caring responsibilities from an aging parent to best illustrate that. Like it might not be the norm but it can often cut through to people as saying oh this could be relevant to everybody. So the the nature of the case studies we put in front of people plus those foundational and persuasive facts combine that together and you've got a chance to cut through to you know on a day that you know Taleswift releases an album and well you know somebody bomb explodes somewhere like because that's what all of this is competing with right.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

I I love the example of the the man with caring responsibilities rather than the mum. I mean I think that speaks to a whole new audience and we know that workplaces are increasingly offering more benefits and opportunities for men to take these responsibilities which is a wonderful way to help achieve gender balance throughout society but men sometimes just don't feel comfortable taking those opportunities up. So the more we can see men in these roles where they are sort of like the champions of this kind of change it's incredibly impactful and I think sport is incredibly good on that front too. You see some of the excellent work that's being done by very high profile male and female sporting athletes with so much attention so much um so many followers and so much interest that they can really cut through in a whole new way as well.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Rachel talk to me about where that leaves trailblazers. Often the people in a workplace or in a sporting club or wherever you might be the people who are driving the change what do they need to try and keep in mind if they're going to try and reach across that divide and and connect effectively with it.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

They absolutely can be because nobody will speak with the passion like a trailblazer in my experience. What they do need to be mindful of is just getting the right message for the right segment and keeping in mind some of these lessons from the moving the middle key messaging document that we have because that will just give them the handbook to use all that passion and all that experience and and knowledge in a really impactful way. Where they'll have more cut through than they might have had otherwise. And I think trial plazers can be so frustrated sometimes because you know many of us have been working on this for decades. How is it still a conversation? And then you see young men who aren't living a different value than we thought they might be at this point and you you see some of the rejectors and they are young men it's it's very it can be very shocking and very frustrating. So I think it it is a challenge for Trailblazers to really keep honest to who they are but recognise that we really do need to um constructively engage with the people who we might be able to influence and shed a light on this issue that perhaps has just sort of gone over their head or just been lost in the mix of information out there.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

It's interesting you say that like for a long time I used to when people would talk about particular particularly in the Champions of Change Network there would be very senior men who would say well I didn't really get this until I had a daughter and now I see it differently and I used to think does it really take you to have a daughter to kind of see this issue because don't you also have a wife and a mother and all the rest of it. But then I realised if that's their you know if that's if that is a conduit for change and then they've extrapolated from thinking about their daughter who may be doing really well in school and want to do well if you can then transfer that to better policies in your workplace for gender equality I'll take that. Right here I mean I might start somewhere yeah I might kind of it's very easy to go to the well why haven't you done this before or that's not the legitimate way into this conversation. Thinking before we're talking about this idea of loyalty to your friend or whatever if if part of what as a as somebody who's either really disengaged on this issue of the thing that brings you to it is your best friend gets sacked because you know of sexual harassment in the workplace I'll take that as well you know.

SPEAKER_02 30:50

Yeah I I mean I do we care? I mean yes fine everybody should have been aware of of this before that point in life but if the reality is that that individual is now looking at this in a different way, exactly. Then I I think that's fantastic and I don't think we should be judging people.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

I think we should just be getting on board at the starting point. I think um one of the things that you know we've talked about in in other spaces as well is that if you're talking just to trailblazers actually we they need a bit of a hug at the moment as well. They need you know love and they need to know that they are on the right page and that all the things that seem a little bit crazy that are going on the well on in the world um you know the fight is still alive in many ways. And so I think Trailblazers talking to trailblazers bring all that fire and all that passion. Absolutely. But what I love about the research is that it shows us that the way that we can communicate most effectively with the movable middle actually also resonates with trailblazers. They understand so you're not going to alienate them by taking this middle path. And it's not the thing that it's not the message that you need to use all of the times in all of the spaces but in you know the workplace example that we've talked about a lot in this episode, workplaces naturally will have a cross section of the population. You'll have most of those groups represented in the majority of workplaces. So being able to cut across is really really helpful. Yeah absolutely thank you Dr RH thank you Dr RH. Rachel Howard such a pleasure to have you joining us today. If you would like to know more about the Moving the Middle messaging guide and all of the incredible advice and research that it contains you can download that and any of the other GenderCompass resources at plan.org.au presented by Plan International Australia moving the middle is about cutting through the noise and having conversations that actually land less shouting more listening real movement let's move the middle