Jason Ricafranca-"Know what you are not"

In this episode I sit down with Jason Ricafranca. Jason has been on staff at Grace since 2017. Starting as High School and College Director, he now serves as Associate Pastor providing pastoral care and leadership to various teams and ministries. He is a graduate of Biola University (B.A. Christian Education, '08) and Talbot (M.A. Theology, 18'). Jason enjoys walking, frisbee golfing, and spending time with others. He has been married to his "Sweet Annie" for 15 years and has 4 kids, each of whom are pretty rad.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:31

All right, everybody. Thank you so much for coming and listening to a new episode. I'm so excited for this. We're gonna have a good time. Um, I have my friend Jason here. Jason, hello. Uh, thank you for being here. Can you introduce yourself a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Yeah, my name is Jason Riccafranca. Um, I am an associate pastor over at Grace Community Church in Seal Beach. Been at the church uh over there for about eight years, and I did about six of those years in student ministry.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Okay, student ministry, both junior high and high school combined, one high school.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

So I started off as high school, and then a year into it, I did high school and college and did that for a good five years out of that six years.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

So okay. All right. You so you've seen these kids grow and probably have families now. Yes, yeah. Which is which is weird. I I've had that happen, yeah. Very weird. I've been like, dude, I remember exactly when they have children.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

It's it's actually a really fun, like, come to you moment because they get older and then they get sluggish, and you get to look at them as a veteran dad and go like, hey, remember when you made fun of me when I was tired? So I I've been doing student ministry since 2007, so it's been a while. So I have some that are on their second or third kids, and um recently we played basketball with uh some of them, and yeah, it's just fun because every year, like, you know, like I I don't feel so bad because I'm almost sluggish and they're getting sluggish now too. And uh they're they're uh they're they're getting into their their their final shapes in life, and so it's fun. It's fun to watch. Man, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Oh man, yeah. I can my when I was a youth pastor, my favorite um time was when they would around junior year. Because that's right when they get their first jobs, they start driving. Yeah, and I remember one student, him and I had this just we it was all love, but there was this head button that would always take place. What? And he I mean I all love, and he knows this. We've talked about it since. Yeah, uh, all love. And uh he uh he would always complain about the price of one of our trips or retreats or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

And one day he shows up to youth group and he says, and he just started driving, and he says, gosh, guys, gas is expensive. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, it is. Now you get it. Like, and it's those moments of I just felt, okay, now we can have more adult conversations, you know, which was so much fun. I I loved right around that junior year, that's when that can really start happening. I loved it.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Yeah, yeah. And that's I mean, I enjoyed, you know, having them in high school ministry and then in college, especially at our first church, uh, they would some of our college students they would come over. We had a young family, so the best time for them to come over was nine o'clock when the kids were sleeping. And they would come over, they would bring in Taco Bell, or they go to this local donut shop that was open late night, they would bring some donuts, and we just play video games for a while, but then we would have these deep conversations in the midst of it. And those were, man, those were really good times, but yeah, very uh, very unhealthy times too, physically. But donuts at midnight are are rough.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Costco pizza is a staple. It is. Uh I mean that's I survived off that.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Do you microwave your pizza when you eat them? Do you eat it cold?

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Like I don't eat it cold. My wife loves it that way, and I look at her like, what are you doing? Like, I can't do it.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

What about you? I I could do it cold. Oh, I just it's wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Pizza for breakfast. You can do that all you did. No shading with food. And you know this, but whenever we go to like camp, oh yeah, my wife will always say, Why how can you eat that food? I'm like, I just I just take the nutrients out of it. Like, I don't know if I care so much about presentation or taste. I was like, Yeah, it's just it's going in my body. I'm gonna need it. I'm gonna use it. Lord will use it. Yes. So that's cool.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

If the Lord could use a donkey to speak, he can use this pizza to give me nourishment. Yeah, yeah. Oh boy, how about that? So good. Really good. Uh well, Jason, you you so in total years, how long have you been a pastor? Is it since 2007?

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Yes. So around 2007. That's uh I started off in our first church, um, and I was ordained that year. So I did about a year of volunteer uh junior high ministry. It was so long ago.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

And then you're almost at the 20-year mark, dude.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

I know it's one. You're almost there. Yeah. 18 this 18 years. Yeah. It's great. You're legal. You know, exactly. Oh, I thought that was such a fun little um it was a fun little happening, but I I got into the associate pastor work like on my 17th year of like doing student ministry, and I was like, oh, this seems right, you know. Why not? Like, you know, it's about to turn 18 years, it's time to become an adult and you know, do adult things in ministry and and uh and I'm I'm I'm kidding. Like we student ministry is very serious, but it's also very fun.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

It's very fun. It's so fun. It is, yeah, yeah. It's you're allowed to um be childish at moments, which is wonderful because there's a joy in it. Yeah. There's a joy of being able to play dodgeball and not feel wait, I'm I'm how do you no, you're just you're being with kids, you're you're you're being a kid yourself. And I think you know, especially I mean you have kids. You you need to stay a kid a little bit. You need to have childlike aspects to your life because it can't just be serious, you know, you can't just be adult time, just there needs to be still a childlike aspect to your life. I think of um you know Dick Van Dyke.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Yes, I do as he's Bert, right? And Mary Poppins.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

And Mary Poppins. Yeah. Still to this day, the dude is I don't think he's quite a hundred. He might be a hundred, but he's at least ninety-nine. He still goes to Disneyland, and when he has the strength, he will do the dance with the other with the penguins. He'll he'll do it. He'll he'll with the chimney sweep guys or whatever. He will get up and still dance, and I'm like, that's what I'm talking about. Like, yeah, this dude is almost a hundred years old, and he still has that child heart to get up and dance like that, and he has a big old smile doing it. He does I just I love that.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

I love that too, you know? Yeah, and I like that, you know, especially for students, that that uh aspect of play kind of builds into um like what's the word for it? Uh it it gives you street cred, right? It does, it gives you credibility amongst the people that you're ministering to because you're willing to get into the spaces that they're at. Yes, and that's that's the big part for me. Yeah, I uh doing adult ministry now, there's there's an element to it, but some some of the things that I long for a lot are like, what does play look like um in these different spaces? But I think I think you're on to something there.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

But you know, growing up at a church uh locally here in San Juan, there was this pastor, and I've mentioned this in other episodes, but I just it's it's just so key that as for those of us that have done youth ministry for so long, and as you've done, you know, you've done youth ministry, which is wonderful, but now you're an associate pastor, so um doing other things for the church, um, we can get lost in saying, okay, that's no longer what I'm part of. And we had one pastor who was an old school Southern Baptist guy, yeah. Um and at that point in time, he was probably in his ear shoot, it's hard to tell. Uh late 60s, early 70s at the time. And what he would do is he would be at the doors, yeah, welcoming people, and if he saw a young man like myself or any of the guys in youth group, yeah, he would purposefully go and shake our hand, yeah, squeeze it and say, Is that all you got, kids? Wow, yeah. And it was to the point where he was so intentional with knowing us, where if for some reason our youth pastor wasn't there that Sunday or Wednesday, whatever, and he would guest speak, we were excited that Ellis was coming. Yeah. Even though here's a guy, elderly man coming, but it was because of the intentionality he had with us, with us high school kids, yeah, generations removed from him. Yeah, you know, and he was excited to be with us.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Yeah. It feels so good to be seen and not because we want you to be quiet. Right. It's just so good to be seen and not seen just because you're you're making a commotion. Like that's right. It's pretty neat. Yeah. Oh man, thank God for men like Ellis.

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Oh man, and he's still going.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

He's still going. He does he's obviously slowed down, but uh yeah, up until recently, um, he was still doing missions trips and still, I mean, he's still going. Yeah. Um minus still ministering for sure. And he's he would be one of those guys that um I mean I would not be shocked if he would be one of those guys that died out in the mission field or or passed away just finishing up a sermon or a Bible study or praying for something. Like just that old faithful dude like that, just inspiring. But I I will always remember Ellis for that, for what he did for us young men back in that time. Um it's a good reminder of for all of us that have done youth ministry that are no longer maybe directly involved. If you're involved out of church, be involved in children's and youth because that's the future. Oh, yeah. And if you can be an influence, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Oh yeah, do it.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Yeah. Um man, we got we got a little tangent there. I love it though. We could talk all day on that.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Um, so okay, we're coming up, you're coming up on 20 years, 18 years this year. So let's go back a little bit. Did you grow grow up in the Seal Beach area? Did you grow up in a Christian home? Like how did that how what was home life like?

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Well, I I actually grew up, um, my mom was Christian, and my dad at the time was a non-practicing Catholic. Okay. And so my aunts actually took us, were the ones that took us to church. Oh. So my mom didn't go to church or wasn't uh bringing us to church. And so my aunts would bring us regularly to church on Sundays. And in growing up in that kind of environment, it was weird because you know, my parents weren't going to church with me. And so, I mean, I one of the memories that just popped up in my head was that uh because my parents weren't at the church that we were at, we would uh we would do a lot of silly things, my siblings and my cousins and I. Oh boy. And so we found like the church copy room and did a whole lot of. Oh, there we go. There you go.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

The donuts in the kitchen or something.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Yeah, you know, and um, and it was it was different. So we my parents weren't, yeah, they weren't, they weren't at the church that we started off with uh at. And so um, but eventually, um it was actually through some men reaching out to my dad that my dad started going to church and then became a believer, and that's where I saw his life turn around, and we all were at the same church together eventually. So wonderful, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

Wow, and was this in Seal Beach or where was it?

SPEAKER_00 12:36

No, this was actually inland, and so I'm gonna be very California here where the the 60 and the 605 meet, you know, down there a little bit more in and uh in a little city called La Puente. And so we were there, gosh, for I grew up at that church, and so um we we were there for many years, and that's where I actually ended up starting off in ministry. Okay, but Seal Beach is always uh it's been formative for me. So in in a way, I've I grew up at Seal Beach because when I was in college, I went surfing a lot, and Seal Beach was the place for me and my friends, and so I didn't know you were a surfer. Yeah, well, not really, you know, like I I I I ride waves, but you know, when I go out with like real surfers, I'm like, I just I look like a schmuck, you know. Like I just think that, you know, when I I really enjoy it, I could catch waves um that are not super big, and it's just a fun like experience for me. Yeah but yeah, Seal Beach was where we would we would do it. Uh there was a place called Rivers End Cafe, it's no longer there, but um, we would just kind of paddle out from over there and spend the day. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

All right. So when in that time would you say you really came to know the Lord? When did Lord come and come knocking?

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Yeah. So I I there was a time when I was in elementary school where I believe I became a Christian, but like many other stories, uh growing up in the church, eventually you start to realize, and it's funny because even as I'm sharing the test uh my a little bit of my story, uh it felt like this was my parents' church, you know, at one point. And I was like, oh, I don't really want to be here. And in my teenage years, I just I just didn't there was a tension because one of the the the unique things about my upbringing tea was that it was a Filipino church that I started off in. And then my parents never grew uh like raised us to speak the language. So there was this tension of like, well, I don't really feel like I fit in. Tagalog, right? Tagalog. Yeah, I don't speak Tagalog. Um, and a lot of times I just try to listen and see maybe I'll pick it up. If I listen, it never happened. But I pushed back, and so actually it was my college years, those surfing years, um, where I really pushed away. My parents uh treated me like an adult, let me make my own decisions. So stopped going to church. I would go to church uh holidays, you know, and uh and whenever I could. I tried to work on Sundays, but my dad would get upset, you know, and he would say, This is the Lord's Day, you have to go to church. And so I would go and I'd drag my feet. Um, but it wasn't until uh like several years into college where that's when the Lord had really uh touched my heart. It was actually through a youth pastor who um was really into apologetics. Okay. And that was big for me because I'd kind of grown up thinking that Christianity was just merely sensational and emotional. And so when he was able to kind of make connections with uh Christ's existence historically, and then the evidence for the validity and authority of the Bible, like I was like, no way, there's there's no way that you can prove it. Um was the youth pastor's name? Well, I mean, he's no longer walking with the Lord, so it gets a little awkward. So it's one of those like God really used him mightily. Um and it's unfortunate because he's no longer walking with the Lord, and but it was so it's so strange because I'm like, I look at that, I look at that uh the interaction that I had with him, I'm like that that was a turning point for me. Sure. Like my life was changed because of his introducing of apologetics to me. Sure. And that that became the beginning steps for what God was gonna do in my life.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

So do you think that um obviously the Lord used him mightily? Do you think his belief was founded simply on knowledge and not the power of the Holy Spirit?

SPEAKER_00 16:51

What do you think? Yeah, every once in a while, like in my personal life, I like to think about those things, but then I go like, you know, the moment I start to answer that is the moment like I, you know, I d I I can't I can't get to myself to get to a place where I judge his heart, although I I do sense I'm like, man, like maybe that's what God, like maybe that's where he was. Like maybe it was just intellectual ascent, which actually is something that has been become really formative for me, which is like, wow, like you know, intellectual ascent, and what does that mean for genuine, authentic, uh uh what does that mean in a genuine and authentic relationship with the Lord? And so yeah, so there's some themes there in my life, and and you caught me at a great time because I'm like uh at the end of two years of therapy, and so I'm like, I process a lot of these things, and so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

Um I I I mean that's it's funny. I love apologetics, I think it's wonderful. Oh yeah, I think that we're called to have an answer for our faith. Um I I I really it grieves me when I see, and I truly, truly the it grieves me. Um almost not it's not a uh I'm almost not shame. That's that's not the right word. Um embarrassed, I think is the right word. I'm embarrassed when I see Christians going out and having the uh table and all this type of stuff, and they can't answer basic questions. I'm like, guys, the world's gonna if you're gonna set up, the world's gonna come ask you questions. You need to be prepared for this as scripture talks about. Um, I love apologetics. Um we're supposed to ask questions. Um but on the other side of that, yeah, is your faith based upon simply the books you're reading and the knowledge you're acquiring? Or is it based upon the work and life of Jesus Christ and the transformation, the work of the Holy Spirit that's being done within you? And apologetics is just fueling that.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

Yeah, I think that's so good. I I yeah, I've I've been very blessed to walk with some friends in the faith who are so good at recalling things apologetically. I think it's so cool when you can host a table and answer people. Totally. I man, I get so much uh anxiety doing that that like I I lock up sometimes. So my my preferred method is invitations over coffee. Yes, it's so much more disarming for me. But in those situations, we used to do uh campus ministry um with campus crusade, now called Crew. Um at a community college. Um and oh man, I mean you you see videos today, and you're like, yeah, it's it's it's not hostile, but it's very emotionally charged because people really wrestle with their faith. And and sometimes Christianity, when we we make our bold claims, like we step into a space where you know people get really uncomfortable with. And so um but I but yeah, I I mean you're you're speaking to someone who uh really appreciates the apologetic uh world and um and what it does for us when we are humble enough to accept that again. This is this is a good approach to to communicating our faith. Um it's it's one approach.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

So do you have a favorite apologist that you like reading or listening to?

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Oh, yeah. I like reading. Um, I mean, I I mean, huge for me formative was uh Norman Geisler's books and Skeptics Ask. Um so I'm dating myself here a little bit, but Josh McDowell's uh The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict, which was like in the late 90s, but now his son teaches at Biola. Yep. Um so those were some of the core ones, the Baker Encyclopedia of Apologetics. Um, those are books, but um, in terms of uh my favorite people, I mean my mentor in college, he taught the apologetics course over at Biola University. Oh, shout out to John Rittenhouse. Um still does ministry to men and does a lot of apologetic stuff uh globally and uh places too where uh the gospel is less accessible, so it's really it's really cool to see him kind of do that. And he is he's an inspiration to me for sure. Okay, yeah, wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

I'm I'm noticing your shirt too, Forest Home, you're rocking Forest Home.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

For you, man. I saw it. I was like, this is a really comfy shirt. Yeah, and I think Morgan will really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

I did Forest Home. You know how Crew and Forest Home are connected? No, crew's first offices were at Forest Home. Bill Bright served at Forest Home, was a speaker there for a long time. Long time. Uh there's a tight history there. And um, and so the first offices were out of Forest Home.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Oh, very cool.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

I, you know, man, I got to speak this past summer over at uh Forest Home. Did you one of the conferences? The side, and I've never been like you showed me it one time.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

And I got to be there uh to speak in, I can't remember the building, but um, but it was like, man, this is Forest Home. Like this is the other side. Yeah. I actually uh also lost a frisbee uh from Frisbee Golf. One of my one of my favorites uh in the creek because the I don't know where that grass came from, man.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

Like it's uh overgrown. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

And I was like landed in there. Oh yeah. I was trying to show off to some students, and I ended up getting uh humbled. It was it was they were like, You play? And I was like, Yeah, I've been playing. And then so like show us, and I went and like I think my second throw, it went in and it got lost, and they were looking at me like this guy's a bozo, like who is this guy? Oh man, so I was like well, okay, Lord, humbling. Oh yeah, what a tangent.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

That's okay. Hey, we're just having conversations here. Yeah, we're just having conversations here, yeah. Um, so so if I'm hearing you, really your your moment where Jesus was real for you, where you had a personal relationship where that started was college age. Yes. Um were you so where were where was the direction of your life going? Uh what were your majoring in? Where did you see your life going prior to that?

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Wow, I don't think I've ever been asked that question. Um before, before my biola days, um I wanted to become a teacher, I think at one point and a businessman. And so I was like, well, I'm just gonna do this. Uh, I was uh working at Romano's Macaroni Grill um and making decent money on tips. And so I was like, this is great. Um the trajectory of my life was very, was very whatever I'm passionate about, I'm just gonna do it. Like, you know, yeah. So if I'm passionate about relationships, I'm just gonna be, I'm a romantic at heart. And so um I just love being in relationships. And I was like, I just want to always be in a relationship with someone. Um I at the time I was like, I'm just gonna be a teacher. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be a teacher to elementary school kids. Uh I heard it's not a lot of money, but it was more than I wasn't making. So I said, this is gonna be good. Okay. So that was my trajectory before um before getting serious in my faith, or before that, that, that come to Jesus moment for me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:51

And then I mean that's a pretty big jump to go from uh you know, teacher to then being saved and then saying, pastor. Yeah. Is that how it went? Or was it oh okay?

SPEAKER_00 25:07

So um, you know, after uh after I came to faith, so I was actually uh booted out of my first uh community college. All would you do surfed? I just surfed. I I found out, so my parents were like, we'll pay for your tuition to go to community college. And I learned, oh, I'm so sorry, mom. Um, but she knows this. I told her, but you know, they would pay my tuition, but then I learned that like if you go to the registrar like within the first couple weeks, you could get a full refund. And that's how I bought like my first couple of boards. Oh my gosh. Wow. And then I would I would go surfing. I never knew how to surf, so I was like, I'm just gonna go out to the ocean and I would just start surfing. Like I would just do it, and this is gonna be the lifestyle for me. Wow. And then I had some friends uh who were like, You you you're gonna go surfing? And they wanted to learn. I was like, let's just learn together. And so like I pulled a bunch of people, and that was my trajectory. I was like, I was just passionate about this, I'm gonna do this. Um, and then I got booted out of my first college, which was Fullerton Junior College, and then I ended up going to Mount San Antonio College in Walnut. And I was there for about a year, and I was getting, I was on academic probation because I was about to fail again. Um, and so so I didn't do full like refunds. I would take like one or two classes just so I could, I'd like I'm still part of this school, I could still hang out with my friends. Um, and then I would at some point, I was almost booted out of Mount San Antonio College, and I was on the radar at our church for a couple of adults, like my parents included, they would tell any youth leader, hey, you need to talk to my son, you need to talk to Jason because he's pretty messed up. Like, which again in therapy, it was like, was it really messed up or was I living the young adult life, you know, the freedom that I never had. Anyways, that's a conversation for another day. But um, that's when I met the youth pastor. And so he had taken me out and talked to me about apologetics, and that was just enough. I was like, that blew me away. The trajectory was after that come to Jesus moment, man, my grades turned around. I I had like had to have been around a one GPA, like whatever. And then I just turned around the very next semester. Like, I was getting A's and B's again. Um, because I was focused and I was like, I gotta go to Biola, like I gotta go to where like this the youth pastor was going, where all of his friends were going. And like I need to be there because that was so it was so like eye-opening to me that you could you could learn all that, and that there were people that were around my age that were learning about this stuff too and cared about it. You know, because I had some friends that grew up in the church too that I don't know, like I don't know if we would ever really talk about God. Like, you know, we wouldn't really talk about like the seriousness of our faith, or we would do the church things. We would go to church, we would uh attend, but yeah. So when I had our youth pastor open up that space and talk about God the way he did, I was like, man, I I'm so curious and I want to be there because there's other people that are passionate about it. And so that's what led to it. And so I went in and I I I entered into a Biola eventually and took Christian education with an emphasis with a teaching credential. So that was my trajectory. Okay. Yeah. So, but yeah, and then after that, um, our youth pastor left. And so um, and then I thought my brother was gonna actually step up to be youth pastor at our church.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Uh, because he was a Bible major.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Uh, and so I just kind of like, okay, I'll just keep doing the teaching thing. And then my brother uh eventually said he didn't want to. Oh. Because the church was looking to hire. And so he said, Do you want to do it? And I was like, you know, I'll do, I'll do like an interim kind of thing. Like, you know, because I was doing yeah, I was volunteering for junior high at the time. Um, I was doing volunteer middle school ministry, which middle school ministry, I know they get like uh a bad rep, but it is they're just they're fun, they're awkward, they're trying to be cool. It's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Yeah, it's you so I heard um I can't remember where I heard this, but I heard this so long ago that junior high they chase for your attention, yeah. High school, you chase for their attention, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

They're too cool and high school.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

Dude, they're they're just so full of questions and wonder and silliness.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

It's it's it's just a different animal. Yeah. But it's it can be so fun.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

It is so fun. Yeah, middle school, middle school.

SPEAKER_02 29:39

Exhausting. Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, I as I get older, I'm like, yeah, that's a lot. Our church was it last year or so? I think it was last year, uh, was looking for a junior high pastor. Yeah. And uh and it was a part-time gig. Yeah. And one of our pastors, knowing my background, kind of gave me a little shoulder, little little like, hey, hey, buddy, what about you? And I said, no. I dude, I I don't have it in me anymore. Yeah. I did it for 11 years. Uh-huh. I I I don't have any left in the tank like that.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

Yeah. No, I remember the day where I was like, this might, this might be the beginning of the end for me, was we were doing a donut race. Like we were like this inflatable donut, and you have to race against students. And I was racing against some of the older middle school students or high school students, and I was like, I I got I just got beat. Yeah. I got beat so bad. And I was like, I don't know if I could do this. Yeah. It was it wasn't even anything like super deep. It was like I was like, oh man, this is wild. And uh, I think I got like I sprained my ankle to that that camp. And I was like, man, I was like, I can't, why am I why is my body failing me this way? And so yeah, but man, middle school. Yeah, I was doing middle school ministry, and then uh and then I did interim for like uh like a year, so that was 2006-ish. Okay. Um, where I was just helping out any way I could, and then yeah, 2007, um became a youth pastor. So wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:17

You just you became interim to just full time.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

Yeah, I I I think I was waiting to see if my brother's gonna take it. I I can't remember the timeline uh fully, but I but eventually he decided he wasn't gonna take it. And you know, and you when you have a relationship with like like middle school students, and you know, they hear that like, oh, they're looking for a person, and then you're volunteering, and then you have your students kind of like egging you on, like to to do it. Um like he was a very it was very special to me. And so so that first batch of middle school students, like we we still connect like to this day. Wow, and so um uh they're head, they have children already. Um one of them is about to have their first child, super exciting. Um, but we'll we'll text every once in a while, we'll send funny memes on Instagram to one another. And um, it just that relationship was special because uh they know this now, but in those moments, um like as much as they would say like I was a blessing to them, they were a blessing to me and affirmed me that like, oh, God could really use me in this capacity to care for people. Um I I I felt so humbled by my um my my story that I was like a question that can comes up a lot of times for me is like, God, can you really use me or can you really um is there value that you could you could you could you utilize in me for this ministry? And those students were a huge encouragement of that during that season of life. And so um, but yeah, it's it's blossomed into a great friendship.

SPEAKER_02 33:01

That's cool. That's cool. Yeah, I mean and I think you know, you probably know this. I mean, I mean, I know you know this, but with youth ministry, half of it is just showing up for him.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a line from a movie too, by the way. Yeah. What what movie? Oh man, it's uh Keanu Reeves and Hardball, you know.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

Is it?

SPEAKER_00 33:26

I don't even know. I didn't know that. It's a he doesn't say it exactly like that, but like he goes, like, I'm blown away by your ability to show up. He's like, something like some percentage of life is just about showing up. And he's like, I never knew that. That's okay. Like, but I no, I think it sounded better the way you said it. But you know, when you said it, I was like, shoot, that's from Hardball.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

Like I I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

Now I'm gonna have to go watch the movie. Yeah, you we we should watch it together. I'm down. Yeah, it's a good one.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

Because then when that comes on, I'll be like, there it is.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Yep. But anyways, wow, but that's a good one. Yeah, I mean, presence and ministry is just so important, right? And that's why you know, showing up to students' uh games and stuff, like a student's game or a recital, such a big deal. It means a lot, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Uh and I mean you recently stepped out, I mean, of youth ministry, what in the last year year?

SPEAKER_00 34:19

A little over a year ago.

SPEAKER_02 34:20

A little over a year. So I mean you're talking 17 years in youth ministry. What in those 17 years has changed in kids?

SPEAKER_00 34:35

Oh man. Um the lame jokes. Uh what has changed? Um I I think uh I mean, I I think like how we connect is definitely something that it was like something I was thinking of towards the end. I'm like, we have to find ways to like what's what's the I think about this from time to what's the shopping mall? Like, you know, you think of like, well, shopping malls were really big for us uh back in in our day, and so that was like the communal spot. Sure. Like, what's the community space that people are using today? And so with student ministry, I found that um that man, social media has become this like big communal spot where even now my daughter is in high school and it's a struggle of like, oh, I don't want you to have social media, but that's the space where they're like exchanging the things that they're passionate about, the things that they love, like and and and granted, it sometimes it's shallow things, right? But those are the things at the shopping malls too. Like sure we would hang out in front of gosh, Miller's outpost, which is an old one. Um, but these stores, and we would like we look at these styles, we would talk about these styles, and so that was the communal space that we would we would use to kind of engage with um with with with students. And so um finding those spaces, like so it became coffee shops too, yeah. Um, and now it's just like, well, how do I engage that space? Um so one of the bigger things is like how do we connect with students in an age where like uh digital digital exposure just makes it so difficult for us to like connect. Um because man is I I don't have a solution to this yet, but you know, social media is so such a challenging landscape because as an older adult, you're like, I I find I find places of rest here, you know, but you see kind of how it it captivates, you know, young people. And man, um I haven't quite figured out, like even with my own kids, like how to navigate that landscape. Um right now it's like, well, it's a no because it'll just suck you in into this vortex of never-ending scrolling and um trying to get you to see what is the beautiful life based on the things that you spend a lot of time on, and it just will consume you. Um, but how do you become a Christian in that space? Uh is the question I think for student ministry today. How do we use the digital space and uh bring bring Christ influence or bring Christ likeness into those spaces as Christians? But that's the one of the biggest, that's one of the deeper things.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

Um thinking back, shoot, I mean, when you were starting in this ministry, the iPhone was just invented.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:43

Think about that. Yeah, yeah. And so social media did not exist.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

Well, it did, but it was so it was it was legit social media.

SPEAKER_02 37:52

Yeah, it was uh it was uh MySpace.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

Yeah, it was Facebook or before Facebook.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

I mean, fresh.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

I don't know. I don't know what target you you would reach with the podcast, but like I think there was this this thing called Find a Pix that we would use or Zanga, which was like this online blog. Oh my. And yeah, and it was just like raw social media. Those were interesting days. Oh boy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:19

I'm gonna, I don't, I didn't, I haven't, I don't know that one. Yeah, yeah, those ones.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

It was it was messy. So find a picks was based on like you would post your picture, and the person underneath you would respond something funny about the way you look, or like whether or not you would date them, or like you know, it was just really raw, like that's that's all it existed to do. That's all you could do on it. Um, and then Zanga was just it, it's like um like Substack now, like where like you would just blog and it's just a space for people to just hear what you do and like what's new in your life, and they could like it. So that was it.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

Wow, yeah, wow, yeah. But I mean, even that it was confined to your desktop, or if you had a laptop at that point, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:04

Yeah, no one was like looking on their phones and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 39:07

There's no such thing, you know, and now uh everyone has one an iPhone or some sort of smartphone with probably multiple apps of social media.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Whether it be Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, Twitter, or X. Sorry, X.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

Um get it right.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

Uh uh whatever else there is out there. Um it's it's challenging. I I know I had that um just always that balance of how do how do I engage these kids through this meeting because I don't want it to be the all-consuming thing because they're already so attached to it.

SPEAKER_01 39:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:53

But at the same time, it is the world we live in, and we you know it's it's uh you know, I be in the world, not of the world, like how do you balance all this? How do you do that? Yeah, I just I it's hard. Oh yeah. And I think for youth pastors, it's harder because kids are more attached to those things than adults are that have you know other priorities going on in their life.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

Yeah. I think uh one of my my later regrets in youth ministry was uh posting uh having our main communication of upcoming events be our social media. What would you have done in the past? What it what would you have changed? Mm-hmm. I would have used social media still, but I probably would have I don't know, I I I would either use some email, like uh email list of some sort, or um even something like Slack or some sort of messaging like app to communicate to parents and students that wasn't social media centric. Right. And the reason why, and and and this is comes with time, was that you know, you talk to some parents and they'll say, like, yeah, I I I really didn't want to get my child onto social media, but that was how like the church was communicating. And man, I go, like, man, as a dad now with like teenagers, I'm like, I put a weight on parents that I really wish I didn't do. Yeah, like that was that so that that that's one of those regrets in in youth ministry in this digital age that I wish I wish I could take back. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:36

Did your pastoring change when you got when you became a dad? Oh yeah. What what changed? Because I mean, you just you touched on something, yeah. You you touched on something right there of oh, now that I'm a dad and everything, you have a 14-year-old, yeah, right. That's your oldest, yeah, right. So I mean, they're right where you were for so many years. Um I mean, I just I have a 22-month-old, and so definitely life changes. Yeah, uh, no matter who you are, your life's gonna change when you have kids. But specifically pastoring, yeah, how did that change for you?

SPEAKER_00 42:16

Yeah, I I the biggest change for me was realizing that I couldn't be as available to the people that I really love ministering to. Like and that was a hard, that was hard for me particularly. Yeah. Um, and like I like I shared earlier, we had students that would come over our house like at nine, nine, nine o'clock at night when the kids were down, and that was great. And but I I'll never forget this moment. Um, we had uh a group a group of volunteer leaders, we're all college age, and we met up for uh lunch at soup plantation, and the conversation was like we they wish that they could have spent more time with me because after having a couple kids, I was less available. And I remember I had one of our kids in a stroller right next to me. We were at Soup Plantation, and I just started breaking down crying because I felt horrible that I couldn't be available. Oh wow. And as I started processing that more, I started thinking, like, well, you know, uh it it's one thing to hold like a lot of love and affection for the people that you minister to. Like we that's that's something that I think is our ministries are better for it when we really love uh ministering to the people or or spending time with the people that we we are around. Um but when you have kids and you realize that I I haven't gotten much sleep, you know, uh the last couple nights. Um or uh I just don't know how to diagnose like my child. Like, you know, like you get you like I don't like parenting was all new to me. And so I don't know, I don't know what to do when they have a fever, like you know, and I don't know like. It I felt like I was doing what I could do, which was spend as much time with them to try to get them well again or get them to a place where they could feel okay. And then you would go into these other spaces with with people you administer to, and they were they wish that that you had more time for them. And you're like, oh, like that was hard. So I think um I had to learn how to to to create some healthier boundaries in my life. Um how did you do that? Um uh a lot of uh a lot of saying no. Yeah, you know, um, and then also uh I would have to uh this was for me, this was what worked for me was I I had to journal a lot, like you know, how I felt when I said no. Um, because it was painful to say no to people.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

Um why why was it so painfully impactful for you? Specifically, why why do you think it was so Morgan?

SPEAKER_00 44:53

You're you're piercing into my heart right now, man. Let's get real, man. This therapy podcast. Do you know? I mean if you I think I was just talking to a really good friend about this yesterday, and it's probably because I put so much stock of my identity into my engagement with people. And so um, I thought, like, I'm a good pastor because I'm spending all this time with the people that I'm ministering to, the youth, the parents, um uh doing these activities. And then to have children, and then all of a sudden, like, like, you know, like oh, I I can't, you know, I could go do these events and these activities, and then I would realize that like a mom. Like I I might be leaving like my wife behind and my kids behind, like, and they might need me right now. Uh, two big moments um in my life, again, lots of regrets, uh, was I there was this, we would do these coffee house outreaches for students. And I remember I I recorded over a chunk of my engagement proposal video to my wife because I was like, I just need to like, I need a I need to record on something, I'm just gonna take this. So that was a moment where I was like, man, ministry feels more important than my family. Ooh. Yeah. And so it was uh that moment. And then the other moment was um my son was diagnosed with autism. Okay. And um my wife um we'd we'd scheduled an appointment with the therapist and the psychologist uh from the hospital to go over the diagnosis. And I told my wife that I couldn't go because we had a Knott's berry farm trip with our youth. And I remember sitting at uh the stairs of one of the areas of Knott's Berry Farm as my wife was telling me crying uh about the diagnosis of our son and the the next um the next steps uh that that would ultimately change our life forever. And I was like, why am I why am I at Knott's Berry Farm? Um you know, why why am I here right now? Uh and so learning to say no was huge, but more importantly than that was learning to to develop other people who could take on roles that I thought I was just like I I was inexpendable, like you know, that I I couldn't I couldn't let go of, that um, that I felt ashamed to let go of because uh my identity was so knitted into what I was doing in ministry that if I wasn't doing, if I wasn't taking the students to Knott's Berry Farm or if I didn't record this uh this event and then give a little video recap for parents or students, then um then all of a sudden people would think that I wasn't doing my job. Um learn to say no to things that would invade areas of my life. I had to identify uh times in my life that I needed to keep sacred or I needed rest. Uh I needed to learn how to say no to things that tried to take those spaces. And then I needed to have uh I needed to invest in leaders that can do those roles that I do find I really enjoy. And I also do find sacred in ministry, which was leading different events um for the youth or whatnot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:30

There there's a there's a lot we could unpack with that because I think a lot of pastors get stuck in that of trying to be all things to all people, right? We are called to be shepherds, and a shepherd eats with the sheep, sleeps with the sheep, rests with the sheep, everything with the sheep.

SPEAKER_01 48:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:50

Um however, um, and and there is an element to pastoring where those that have longevity in this role quote unquote smell like the sheep, right? Those are the effective ones, the ones that know their body, that truly know their body, yeah, that are that know their people's first names and know their family and has sat there in living rooms and dens and dining room tables with them and all that. That those are the pastors that when we look back at our life have been instrumental, like I talked about Ellis, right?

SPEAKER_01 49:34

That type of pastor, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:36

Um, and those are pastors that we look at and say, I want to be like that. However, um, even Paul speaks about married versus single, right? He warned, he gives a warning of if you get married, yeah. You know, one, it's a good thing, scripture says it's a good thing, right? But now you have to devote the time to this.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:01

Um and that can be hard. Oh, that can be hard. Yeah. Um, I remember when I first got married, um, that was a big lesson I had to learn. Um was even when I got married, I had to learn that. Because I was bi vocational. So I was working full-time plus pastoring, and now I'm recently married. And that was a big lesson to say no, keep things sacred, um, date nights, like all that type of stuff. Yeah, that when I was single, I could just go with my hair on fire and not okay, I got three hours sleep tonight, cool. Who cares? You know, I'll get I'll sleep whenever. But when you grow up and you mature and you start doing adult things like married and kids, yeah, that can't stay the same. No, and um I remember even for my wife, she but on the office, she had to learn too. Like, I remember because she she didn't grow up in the church at all. Um she'd been a Christian for three, four-ish years, four years, yeah, um, but never in a relationship with a pastor. And so she thought Sunday morning we go to church and then we leave. And I'm like, Yeah, uh different. Yeah, and we had to sit down. I said, you know, this is my time with the people. Uh looks like we have to take two separate cars if that's what you want to do. Yeah, you know. Um but yeah, life, but I think you hit it is that all too often uh we try to be all things, which means be a part of everything. Um how I mean how was that process of realizing okay, I can't do this anymore. I need to build up other leaders to be co co-shepherds with me.

SPEAKER_00 51:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:57

How how was that process?

SPEAKER_00 51:59

Yeah, well, I mean, I um I was it's it's it's a work in progress. I mean, it was it was something that, you know, at our first church, I did I had volunteer leaders, but I was so young, and then we moved to our next church, and that's where I um took it a lot more serious uh and um really invested in uh leaders that could do more. And I and and again, so much of this, if it if it sounds like, oh, like I had this plan or this elaborate idea, I I didn't. I I was very grateful because God led me to leaders that taught me things too. So I had a leader at our next church who who saw that we had kids, and she spoke so much life into like our my my ministry because she would say things like, Oh, you know, it's totally okay. We we could get the like you know, the afterglow when students are hanging out at the end of the night, you know. We could we could take care of it from here. Go home and be with your family. Oh and I was like, What? You know, like you as a leader, like I if I ever ever get to a place where I tell people, like, yeah, it's it's important to be with your family, you know, like at the end. And it was like, it was because of leaders like her, like Becky, like that uh that almost gave me permission. Like it like it felt so refreshing that, yeah, I could hang out here for another two, three hours with college students, you know, at the end of an event and just mingle um and talk about a whole lot of nothing, but build a lot of relational equity. Um but when she when she had told me that uh I was like, oh, it was so good to go like, well, I could go, I could go home, I could be with my family, and I could, I could lead college ministry and also be uh a dad, you know, I was like, and a husband. I'm like, what? Like, you know, and so it was it was so good. But the the funny part about that story is that I think when that that first night she told me that, she would always tell me that um at the end of our events. But that first night she told me, I also get a call when I'm home saying, like, hey, Jason, the police are here at the church because some of the guys were doing donuts in the parking lot. And I'm like, oh boy, here it is. And so you're like, oh, there's there's that moment where I'm like, this is where I have to be, I have to be the youth pastor. And so, you know, you have conversations, but but still, even then, even even in dealing with that, um it was it was still a humbling moment because I I think of like, yeah, like like I learned that uh there are there are things I could do, I could plan an event, and then when the event is done, I I can go. Yeah. Um I I think you know, growing up in a Filipino church as opposed to now or you know, work in a more more Americanized uh setting, like I think one of the things that you learn is that like, yeah, like we're really good at like, you know, when the service ends at this time, like where it says if we have one hour service and it ends at 12 o'clock, everyone it ends and people leave. But in a Filipino church, like um it was just so relational that like people would hang out for hours after church. Um and and in in some spaces in youth ministry too, it's so relational that it's it's similar. Like, you know, so you you have a lot of students who are like, oh, the event's over, but like we could still hang out until my parents pick me up, or like until like until I sense that it's over and I call my parents to pick me up. And so um, so you still have that. Uh but the nice thing is to kind of step back, especially in this associopastor role, you know, like yeah, like we have events that end and um and then the end and and we praise the Lord for it, and then we we we go home and we we we get back to the other things in of our life. And so it's it's nice to have that perspective now of like, yeah, we set set some some set set some healthy boundaries in terms of the time I'm spending in ministry and and also learn to not um to not regret like uh having to to be home after a long day of ministry. And so which was something that's particular for me. I don't think every pastor might struggle with that, but it was it was definitely something for my my experience.

SPEAKER_02 56:22

Yeah. It's it's the one role father and husband that can't be replaced. There will be a day that will come where you will no longer be the associate pastor at grace.

SPEAKER_01 56:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:36

But you will always be your kid's dad. Yes, and it cannot be replaced. Um whether it's the Lord taking you or called to a different body, but there will be a day you will no longer be the associate pastor at Grace.

SPEAKER_01 56:50

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 56:51

And um, but you will always be their father. Yeah. Uh nobody else can claim that title. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:58

Man, so good. I mean, so I mean, Forced Home helped me a ton with that. And so two things. Our senior pastor at our latest church, one of the things that I learned was um our current church at Grace was he would have this gumball machine like in his office, and then our kids would go in. So when we first started going there, our kids would use it, and then he would kind of tell me, like, oh, we want we want our kids to love where their dad works, you know. I was like, man, that's good. And then there was this moment at Force Home where I I remember talking to the director at the time and the speaker. Like, I was like, hey, I'm a dad and I've got young kids, and and and it's getting harder to go to camps. Yeah. Like, you know, you it we're not gone for a super long time, but there's this element of like, we're we're gone and we're out, and sometimes we always feel guilty, having a ton of fun knowing that I'm leaving my wife home with the kids, and um, and it's just really hard uh to be here sometimes. And the director at the time, the speaker said, like, you should invite him up. Who who was it? I'm curious. Joe Strange.

SPEAKER_02 58:13

Oh yeah, yeah, I've heard the name, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:14

Yeah, and then uh Jeff Bachman was the guest speaker. Bachman, dude, what a legend. We what our church group called him the Silver Fox. Um I understand why. It's beautiful, man. Yeah, man. Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. Bachman. You know, I you know, it's one of those, like, I think I saw him, like, I he spoke again, and I saw him, I just told him like his words were so meaningful because um I was actually at I my dad was going away to the Philippines to do some mission work. Um, I didn't get to see him off because I was at camp. And so I was at Forrest Home at camp. He went off to the Philippines and we had this weekly dinner that our family would do. And then um when I when I got back, I was waiting for him to return. Um, but you know, we were just kind of living life, and then I get a phone call that he had passed away overseas. And um, and so I didn't get to say goodbye to my dad. And so there's this this this weight of like, why didn't I get to hang out with him before he left? Well, it's because I was at camp, and and so there's this weight that I carried. It's not camp's fault, it's not it, it was just something that I internalized that man, Camp now has this stigma of not only does it hard to be there as a parent, but then also like I missed something that I couldn't control because like I was at camp and my dad passed away. Um, and I remember uh talking to Jeff and Joe, and when they told me I could bring my family up, like that was special because I don't think I again there's this theme in my life of like I like I guess it felt like I just needed to have permission uh from them that like this is okay. Yeah, like your family could be in this space, like with what our senior pastor said. Um, like, you know, our kids should enjoy what their dad does. And um, and sometimes I'm away from my family, you know. Sometimes I do ministry, like uh I have to go to a denominational meeting um out of state. Um, but you know, this became like it's became a treasured tradition, and my kids look forward to going to Forest Home every year. Now, so I have three kids that are gonna be at Forrest Home this January um that are all stoked about it. That's great. Yeah, they will, yeah, they're they're loving it. And our our youngest son, um, like he would go uh in the the pastor's housing with my wife and our kids, and he's now at camp at Force Home, and he's like he's ready, like he's just yeah, so it's just that was a very special um lesson to learn uh for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:57

Yeah. I um when I go to Forest Home, well, I took you around so that uh off-road vehicle there, yeah, yeah. I've taken my son and he loves it. And Forest Home, even on a staff level, is very family friendly. Yes. Um, there's a picture I'll show you, but me and then a woman a woman who works there, Rebecca, her son and my son are just a week apart. There's a picture of them both there's we have the conference room in the admin building, and they have this sliding glass door, and it's both of them with the hands up on the door, just yeah, and they're playing in there, and that's that's how forced home is, yeah, for sure. It's and and I think that's how if if the church you serve at is in that way, what what are you what are we doing? Yeah. I mean, yeah, if I've heard it said so many times, if you don't hear children crying or or um or or um laughing during a service, something's wrong. Um the church body, it's the whole body, which means mom, dad, kids, right? We need to be okay with this. No different than you and I both have kids, like we're talking about, and life changes, one of those changes, your house is never gonna be fully clean again. You what do you you gotta be okay with it? It's just going to happen. And the church building is just an extension of your living room.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:27

And it's not gonna be 100% clean. It's not gonna like things are gonna happen. But you know what? I'd rather that than not have the than the joy of having those kids around.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:39

And church needs to be that because I've heard so many stories of pastors' kids where it's been the opposite, and then they have this this distance, they create this distance because of that. Yeah, it's so sad.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:53

I mean, you even have to like even going beyond like the pastor's kids, like you think about the single parent, like well, it's too difficult to have babysitting, but if they're at church and their kids are fussy, I'm like, I'd rather you be there. Yeah, yeah, 100%. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:09

So we've talked a lot about dad life, having kids, ministry, becoming a parent, being a parent. Yeah. Um how did you meet your wife?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:23

Oh, yeah. Um, my sweet Annie. Um, we met at Biola, uh, although we debate how we met first. Um, our youth pastor at the time, the one that uh introduced me in apologetics, uh, would bring her to college group. Okay. And so um college group was hosted at someone's house, usually it was at uh our house, um, every once in a while. And so he had brought her over to our house. Um, but I say biola because I think I met her, maybe she says biola, but I think I we met at like some sort of club gathering at Biola. I wasn't a student yet, and I totally just shrugged her off. Um, I think I was going in, I was in this season of life where if I was getting serious with the Lord, I said, well, I've always been in dating relationships, and so I'm just gonna shrug off any, I'm not gonna acknowledge women. It's so dumb. But it was, it was okay. We didn't need to go into that. But it just was like, I just was trying to be cool and go like, well, I'm not gonna like give this person much attention. Um, and uh, and that backfired on me because I ended up um doing some ministry with her in middle school ministry. Okay, and man, she's just such an amazing person who loves people, was so funny. She would make people laugh, and um and and really it I started saying, well, you know, like maybe I could kind of get to know her a little bit more by doing ministry with her. And so she was really good at tech stuff. So I said, like, hey, would you help me uh put together some videos for middle school ministry? And so we would hang out like at the at so Biola's dorm uh had like a common space, so we'd hang out there and she would make these videos, and so we really connected in college group at Biola, yeah. And then how long did you guys date for until you got married? We dated for about two years, I think. Okay, yeah. So I think from 2007 to 2009. Okay, that's when we started dating. Um, I I like I said I had this vow with the Lord. I wanted to be single for a couple of years, and so or a year and a half, and then the day after that vow was over, I asked her out on a date. Yeah. And uh, you know, my youth pastor at the time tried to convince me, she's like, maybe you should take take a longer vow. I was like, dude, a year and a half of just like making this a very conscious like effort to not date was big. Um and so I dated, we went on a date and um dated for A couple years and then we got married in 2009. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:05

And so was there any type of similar to what you're talking about with having kids, was there adjustments now being married to?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:15

You know, that one was a little bit easier to navigate because we were both in ministry. Okay. And we were both in youth ministry. Okay. And so uh she was really aware of like what student ministry was like, um, and like the the late Friday nights, um, the students hanging out, like or wanting to hang out a lot. Um, and so it really, it was really, it was really natural for us. I think the biggest challenge um was was learning. I mean, this is going more into just marriage life, which was like learning to just grow in more curiosity about who she was. Yeah. You know, uh, because so much of our this is still true to us of this day, but so much of what we talk about is like our common love for ministry that we'll talk about that. But uh one of the things I I have to tell myself is like, well, I want to continually be curious about who she is, what she's learning, what's going on in her life outside of this space. Um, and so that's that that's been something I continue to to learn and kind of lean into. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:23

Yeah. It's amazing how life changes in ministry when marriage and kids happen. Uh, but it's needed. I mean, you see the guys, they eventually something happens when they don't get that um, when they don't get that balance right. Yeah. It's it's they devote everything to family, but then they're not available to the church, or the opposite. They give everything to the church, and family just crumbles. Um I remember I heard, I won't say the name, but there was an older, very prominent pastor um in the Southern California area, and his daughter did a interview one time about him and growing up with him and everything. And she said everything was the church. In a in a in a just not what's the uh not joyful way. Yeah, you know, it was more begrudgingly, yeah, dad was always there, or we always had to be there, you know, and instead of it being a joyous event, it was just kind of this is just what it is, which is sad. Now I think luckily she still she's very much still has faith. She, you know, didn't depart from the faith, but still, I mean that's that's I know for me that's the opposite of how uh I how I want my son to be, and I know for you the same. Oh yeah. And so how do you balance being a good father, good husband, and good pastor?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:05

Yeah, this is where um I think, you know, what's what's what's my job description say? You know, I think this is where I kind of lean into those organizational administration like aspects of ministry. Um, because what what what is expected out of me? Yes. And you know, and then what's the it if you're going into a church ministry, like is there some sort of unspoken rule that is stands as an exception to this, you know? And so, like, oh yeah, we want you to lead this and this, and that's it. But is there is the church like that I'm going into, do they have some sort of expectation that no, you're gonna do more than this? Like you need to do this and some stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:48

Um or even the other one, yeah, which is so common, is we're hiring you, but your wife too. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:56

So again, and again, I'm grateful because our our our second church in Bellflower, um, our senior pastor, he he said this to me several times. He was like, We're hiring you and not your wife. That's it. Yeah, I didn't even think about that. I was like, well, then that just frees up my wife. Like, so when she does do ministry, it's just amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:13

It's it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:14

So I was like, yeah, when you're doing it, you're doing it. You're not doing it because you're my wife. And so yeah. So it yeah, so I would I would say that the the the greatest uh way to kind of um build balance, you know, which again, whatever balance looks like, uh, is to go like, well, what's expected out of me? Yep. Um, and then having that relationship with who's your who's your supervisor, who's your senior leader that's overseeing you. Um and then, you know, we we do at our church, we do like yearly evaluations, which I know it sounds rough, uh like sometimes, you know, for people who are new in ministry to go like, wow, your evaluations are so like vulnerable, but it's so good because there are moments where like you get affirmed for the things that you do well, and you also kind of like get to look at like what's my job description? Yeah. Did I go above and beyond this? Did was it because I felt pressured to by someone else, or was this on me because I did it? Um, so you would have those questions naturally kind of come up in that discussion space. But then what I've also found really helpful is having a couple of friends at the church that you're serving at. So I have really my closest friends don't go to the same same church as I do, but having close friends in the church that can kind of give you that perspective of like, what are you doing? Like, are you doing what you're supposed to be doing? Um uh they they could give you the perspective. Like my friends outside of the church couldn't look into my like if I were to say, Hey, uh Tim, can I am I doing enough? You know, he wouldn't be able to answer that question. Sure. Um, but having a friend in the church, uh, and just saying, like, I feel like I'm not doing enough sometimes, and having them reaffirm you and say, I from my perspective, it looks like you're all over the place.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:06

And like, wow, um, that's good. And so, yeah, and that goes just a long way too, like in terms of putting gas in the tank. Um because uh I'll have regular touch points with uh my friend Steve, and we'll have tacos and we'll just eat and we'll talk about ministry and life, and uh and you have a person to lament to, a person to uh trudge through life with, and um and also it it's like like I was saying, it kind of reaffirms the uh um the expectations of your role because you get to see it from someone else's eyes, yeah, which is really neat.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:42

Yeah, so it's uh it's so necessary to have that person that's gonna tell you the good, the bad, the ugly.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:50

And being able to know that this person is saying these things out of love. But you need to choose them wisely.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:57

Right. Oh yeah, yeah. It's not anyone and everyone. And it takes time. I um I think when I was first told that I was going to enter into this role as associate pastor, um you know, I I I made in a couple of uh uh uh things that I needed to do, which was I wanted to go into therapy because I was like, I probably have some stuff that I need to process. Uh but then I also I said I want to start leaning in and building the relationship with friends that I have here at Grace because I I I just want I just want my cl I want close friends to lift me up in the seasons where I'm know I'm gonna hit, where I'm gonna hit some pretty low seasons that could speak life uh into me. And whether it is uh you know it's funny is that you know, whether it's if even if it's a difficult conversation, but because we have these long-standing relationships, even the difficult ones sometimes that we have, I'm like no, I there's no question that there's love and support like for me in those those places because we've built a relationship together. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:06

It's yeah, I mean, you have to have uh that Barnabas next to you to just lean on at times because ministry there are so much so many joys, but there are moments and there are seasons where it it's rough. Oh yeah. Where it it can get rough because it rocks every piece of you because you've invested so much into these people and whatever's going on, there's so many situations that could take place. Um it affects you deeply. It affects you deeply as if almost as if they're your own kids. Yeah. You know, it can affect you deeply. Yeah. Um I think even in that, in in the midst of those storms, you still can't be all things to all people.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:58

And you have to trust the leaders that you have. Um how have you in in you know, how have you been able to identify and then you I guess you could say train those leaders to where now it is, oh, I can leave. How have you been able to do that? Because it's so necessary, right? I mean, in the New Testament, we see Paul going and establishing churches by establishing elders, which is a plurality, which means a group of men were shepherding, right? And this is not just I think in our day and age, it can't just be for there's just a group of elders, there should be a group in every ministry, right? Yeah, um, how have you been able to do that? Because it's so needed because it's very easy in this celebrity pastor culture, be like, I'm the guy, yeah, but it's so dangerous. Oh, yeah. So, how how how have you been able to do that to then step back and be the present father and be the present husband and all of that?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:10

Yeah, I I um I took our church's values, um, and we have a philosophy of ministry, but what I what I'd done was I kind of created a DNA of like what what make what's the kind of leader that we're looking for? Yeah. Uh and so there's two acronyms that uh we came up with. One's easier than the other one. One's four C's, and the other one is uh the acronym FART, which we I loved for student ministry. So for FART, it was we're looking for leaders that are faithful, available, reliable, and teachable. Okay. And so faithful would be um, are you gonna be faithful and committed to this ministry? Like is this something that like that you you know that you wanna you wanna be a part of and you're going to show up to it faithfully? Um, and that F was one of the ones that was really hard to do to kind of keep leaders accountable to during COVID because man, so much was going on. Oh my gosh, yeah. Being faithfully uh like uh a part of the ministry was that was happening. Available um was is the idea of, you know, am I am I making myself available to the students that I'm ministering to? Yeah. You know, am I being well it could be something simple as being emotionally available to them, like as they're they want to vent because a lot of students want to talk to someone and a lot of times they just want to talk about what they're going through in life. And are you gonna be available, you know, um in in that respect? And then are you reliable? Like if you have tasks that are delegated to you, or if a parent gives you a responsibility and says, like, hey, yeah, you could uh you could take uh a bunch of uh boys out, you know, to go paddle boarding, whatever. They just gotta be back home by a certain time. Are you gonna be reliable as a leader to get them back on time? Because we're this is how family ministry like is incorporated into student ministry, which is, you know, if we're when we're reliable as leaders, then we're we're we're building a relationship with parents. And so are you gonna be reliable? Are you gonna be the kind of person that says, when I schedule something, I'm gonna be there. Um, and then the last one is teachability. Uh, and I I'll usually say to an incoming volunteer, um, you don't have to know everything, but you have to be open to the idea that we're gonna learn a lot as a leadership team uh together, but you're also gonna learn a lot from students. Um which is uh which is the humbling thing. Like we're not coming into these positions because you're the know-it-all. I think the benefit of having older volunteer leaders is that they do know a lot, you know, in terms of in comparison to where students are at. But teachability speaks to are are you are you humble enough to realize that like if you lose your cool and a student goes like, man, you really lost your cool there? Like, you know, like like are you gonna be okay enough to go like you're right? Like I did lose my cool, or you're gonna say, like, trump, like, don't talk to me that way, you know, and so that's where the teachability aspect comes into play. Um so I use that acronym. Or the other one that I use is uh this the four C's, character, competency, chemistry, and calling. Um so they're all similar. It it if you're really prod and go like, are they different? Like, oh, they're really similar. Character, like, are you are you willing to do the right thing in ministry? Uh competency is the teachability aspect. Are you willing to learn, you know, from others? Um uh chemistry is a huge one. I had this is a huge one, which is like, like, how do we how do you connect with other leaders that are here? Yeah. Um, and that's a huge dynamic. Big time. Yeah. And so um there was a uh speaker actually from Thousand Pines that uh he would tell me, like, well, these are the guys I would go hang out with at uh a bar after, you know, ministry with. And I was like, I don't really hang out at bars. So I was like, maybe hang out at a restaurant with, you know. Right. These are the people that, you know, I would love to hang out with after work. Um so chemistry, you know, do we have that kind of bond together? Do we re enjoy doing ministry together? And then calling is my my favorite one because it's like that's a thing where if you feel called to ministry, like when a student like throws up red licorice at uh all night lock-in and you have to clean it up because no one's on staff to clean it. That's it. Like, are you gonna be, are you, are you gonna be okay? Like are you? Are you gonna say, or are you gonna say, I didn't sign up for this? And so calling is the the thing that looks at that mess and goes like, oh, I'll clean it. You know, um, it's not wonderful. It sucks, but I'm gonna do it. So so those are the the those are like the the that's the skeletal system that I use for looking for leaders. And I use it, I use it still, you know, when I think of like uh pulling in leaders for different things, do they fit this mold? Um, and I just don't explicitly say it as much as I do in like pseudo ministry. Sure, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:07

And I bet since since then it's been very restful to have leaders that have stepped into those roles, so you don't have to do all that. Yeah. Take take the hint, listeners. Find good leaders to be around you. Yes, please. Yeah, people want to serve.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:24

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:24

People want to. There, but they also have from those that are on staff, they want to be invited.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:32

Right? Yeah. So invite them. Yeah. Um well, we're getting to the end here. Uh what are is a few pieces of advice if there's a 18, 19, 20 year old or just somebody that wherever they are in life, but they are sensing um a calling. Yeah. What where should they be looking? What should they be doing? Where you know, um what piece of advice wisdom would you give them?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:08

Yeah, man, that's a big responsibility. Um I I would say if if you're looking into ministry, um find someone in that field um that you can have honest conversation with. And not just like the pretty things, but like go like, hey, what's the ugly side? Yeah. And turn on your like poop sniffer to see if like if they're being a hundred percent honest with you, because like just tell them like right away that like I wanna know, I just I wanna know the nitty-gritty because like you have to do yourself a favor because if you're not thinking about those things, and then you go into this idealized like version of ministry, and that's why so many people drop off. Totally. And it's just like, well, I didn't expect that to happen, or I didn't expect that to be the way it was, or I didn't expect that to impact my relationships the way that it did. And so have that convert, have a couple of conversations, candid conversations with people in the field that you want to get into. Um, and I'm sure a lot of pastors would be really open if you said, like, hey, you want to go out for some coffee? I think that's like the sweetest words a pastor could hear. Like, what you want, you wanted to go out with me and and have coffee. Um, like you could you could just ask those questions. Like there's like there's no holds. Like you could just just just ask whatever you can and get to the bottom of it. Yeah. Um, and and uh there's one quote that I think of um from Gary McIntosh, uh, who is this guy at Biola too, a really awesome guy. But he would say, It's worth its weight in gold to know what you're not in ministry. Yes. Yeah. And um, yeah, I remember hearing that when I was a young pastor. I was like, I don't know what that means. And so you get older. You can find out. Yeah, you get older, you're like, I know what that means. I'm like, I'm just I'm just not as organized as I thought I was, you know, like, and um, and this is where when you realize what you're not, then you know what kind of leaders to really look for, too. Yes. Um, because then because people have those giftings. Uh, there's gonna be people in your church that have those giftings that that, like you said, want to serve uh and and you get to be that person and and you get to share that leadership with them. And so, yeah, I would do anything to speak against a celebrity mindset of one person doing everything because you know, like I think we're just we're just this is so cheesy, but we're just so much better together than you know, yes, and just solo.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:53

We are called into a uh gathered people, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:58

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:58

Yeah, both both both just simply the church, but as leaders gathered. Yeah, yeah. Um well that's that's wisdom, and those that are listening, please hear this because it is come from a place of of knowledge, almost 20 years, wisdom of doing things one way and then seeing the change that you needed to make, which I mean that's life. It's we all have regrets, but where wisdom comes in is recognizing it and making a change, and you've done that. Um so those that are listening, please hear this because um we're here sitting here talking about these things. Um, you're listening because hopefully you've gained some insight in in this episode and other episodes. We're here to serve you and hopefully you can be the next generation of pastors and leaders uh and be better than we've been. Yeah. We want better leaders in our churches, our churches need it. Yeah, so please hear these words and and receive them any way you can. Uh, Jason, thank you so much for being here. Um, I know you've been a blessing. I'm excited um for what God's gonna continue to do with you and uh and Seal Beach up there. Yeah, great Seal Beach. I'll get uh I'll get Jesse Oh man, oh boy. Oh Jesse. Mutual friend. Yeah. Those uh thank you all for listening, and we'll catch you next time.