Winston Wardwell-“Redeemed to Shepherd”

In this episode I sit down with Pastor Winston Wardwell. He is the Family Pastor at Cornerstone Community Church in San Clemente where is was born and raised. 

Even though he was brought to church by his mother early in life, Winston chose a different path. Finally, after years of addiction and walking away from the Lord, Jesus brought him back in a powerful way. 

Winston is now married to his wife Kristen, co-Pastors a church, and is a foster parent. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:31

All right, well, welcome and thank you for tuning in again to the Aspire Ministries podcast. Today, I have the joy of having Pastor Winston here joining us, and he's going to be sharing all about his ministry, life, and just his unique perspective in how he got to where he is, his family life. He's married to an amazing woman who is hand in hand with him in ministry. They have been involved in many different ministries, both separately and together. So I'm excited to hear about what Winston's going to share. Winston, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for having me. It's an honor to be here. Yeah. So, Winston, okay, so just to start, um, you are a pastor where?

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Uh I'm a family pastor at Cornerstone Community Church in St.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Clemeney. St. Clemente. Yeah. And uh that is where we are both raised. We both are products of San Clemente. And this may not be the most biblical thing. I think it's in the book of Second Opinions, but Jesus lives in San Clemente.

SPEAKER_03 1:32

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Um, I love yeah, we love St. Clumeni. Uh that's why we would live where we live. Yep. Um so okay, Cornerstone Community Church. How long have you been in that role?

SPEAKER_02 1:43

Um, I've been on staff just a year. A year.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

I've been a part of the church for three. Okay. Yeah. All right. Which is the best way. I mean, you know, already being a part of the church and then the staff that's already established and they're bringing you in. That's the best way to go about it, in my opinion, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:02

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Um, so let's get into it. Sure. You grew up, like I said, you grew up in St. Clemente, right? Born and raised. What was home life like? What how how was that? Yeah, home life.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

Um both of my parents grew up in Michigan. They met in LA, actually. They met in California.

SPEAKER_04 2:23

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Um, and so by the time I I came around and my brother came around, uh, there wasn't a big family feel because everyone was far away. Uh, my parents they got divorced when I was four. Um, so that was pretty tough. That was a tough time, tougher for my brother. He's a little older than me, but definitely a tough transition, a lot of back and forth. My dad grew up or was living in Carlsbad my whole life. So as I was growing up, I was going between St. Clemeni and Carlsbad.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Um, yeah. Okay. All right. And so four years old growing up in that. And did you grow up in a home that knew the Lord post the Lord? It was kind of in the middle of their respect, but just kind of didn't wasn't a part of life.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

My mom's a Christian. Uh, she she shared the gospel with me at a young age. Um, uh, just some foundational parts of the gospel. Um, and yeah, so so I was presented Christ uh pretty pretty early on. Um I didn't didn't grasp it till later. I'm sure me, I'm assuming we're gonna get get to that a little bit later. But uh, but yeah, so my mom was a Christian, my dad unfortunately wasn't. Um he never never grew in his faith for the Lord. Was he opposed to it? He was just silent about it. Just silent about it.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

And and with your mom growing up in St. Glenn, you said she's a Christian. Did you guys attend a specific church? Yeah, we went to PCC. Oh, yes. I mean, yeah, that church has been there a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, okay. When whenabouts did you start going to PCC?

SPEAKER_02 4:04

Um, in like my age. Yeah. Um pretty early on. Pretty early on. I mean, I th I would think maybe seven or eight, if I had to guess, honestly. I don't know. My memory of my childhood is is not great. But yeah, I would say probably seven or eight till about fourteen when I was given kind of the option. Okay. Um, and I always sat in Maine. I was I was I went to youth once. Okay. And uh I think that reality, just not meeting kids, uh, just kind of I was bored sitting in main service. I was too young.

SPEAKER_04 4:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Yeah. So so I wish, you know, if I could go back, I wish I would have gotten plugged in in children's and then youth ministry.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

What was it about youth ministry that you you you just didn't want to be a part of?

SPEAKER_02 4:53

I just didn't know anyone, you know. So I think I was nervous. Um, in the one time I went in, yeah, I just, you know, I didn't make any connections with people and it just felt kind of weird, and you know, and my mom didn't push me to go back. Uh and I so I just set kept sitting in Maine for a couple more years till I stopped going altogether.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

None of friends from middle school were in there or anything like that?

SPEAKER_02 5:16

No, no, and I I went to a private middle school, small one, CVCS. Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah. Um, so I mean, we had chapel, we had Bible classes there and stuff, but uh, but yeah, not at church.

SPEAKER_04 5:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

All right, and I mean that's all the way that's in San Juan. So yeah, those those kids from CVCS probably were attending different churches. So kind of this different world type mentality a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Um, it's funny. I there was a church there called CBC, and that's where I grew up and then uh met Winston's amazing wife. She was my youth leader for a time, and so cool. Uh I I love how the churches connect that way.

SPEAKER_03 5:55

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Um, but uh um, and it's funny, I as a kid, I remember I went to PCC for a little bit. So I'm even starting to see here in real time different, you know, the uh paths are crossing and whatnot. Was Mark Ambrose there at the time? Yes, I think so. Yeah, he's been there a long time. Yeah, he's been there a long time. Um okay, so you mentioned at a certain point you're given the choice. Yes. Uh so how did that transpire? Were you kind of fighting, going to church, and mom just kind of relented? How did that go?

SPEAKER_02 6:29

Yeah, I mean, so my mom was a single parent. She never she never remarried, um, barely even dated, barely even dated, didn't want anyone to tell her how to raise her kids, just gave, just dedicated her whole life to raising my brother and me. Like just a total servant, uh, just an amazing woman. And I just put her through the ringer, the ringer in at a you know, in my younger years, in my foolish years. Um, so yeah, I'd imagine I I just kept pushing the topic and she just kind of gave in. Single parent, working, making sure we get our homework done. Yeah. You know, uh I I don't know how she did it, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

But yeah, eventually it just probably wasn't worth the fight for her, I'd imagine.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Do you do you remember those arguments with her?

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Uh I I remember, I remember when when it the time came. Yeah. I don't think it was a ton of arguments about it, but I think it was just me probably being really disruptive. And uh it was just a tough time in my life. I'd say 11 on uh just realizing what other family dynamics looked like compared to mine, and realizing things that I didn't have and things that I did have that I didn't want in my life. Um, so I just think I started taking it out on her and um the last person I should have taken it out of. Sure. You know. So there was already a lot of dysfunction that I was bringing into the family at the time, and my mom was really patient.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Where where was your older brother in this? Was he in the same boat as you, or where was he involved?

SPEAKER_02 8:14

Uh so John was off with friends at this point. Yeah. Um, even at a young age, he was off with his friends a lot and getting into different kinds of trouble. And uh, you know, and and but he was really good at, you know, saving face, uh, making people happy through what he'd say, even if he didn't live that way. So so he was never a problem. Okay, he would never intentionally be a problem child. He would be a people pleaser, but then go and do problematic things behind behind the scenes. I was just a problem child. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

You were out in the open all together, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:51

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Did you learned from him though what trouble looks like? Uh yes. Yeah, I would say so.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

And I looked up to him, of course, my older brother.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Yeah. Of course. Yeah, being an older brother, yeah. You want to do what he does. Yes. Uh so right around 14, which is, I mean, such a pivotal age, you and I have both worked with kids.

SPEAKER_03 9:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

I mean, that's when, I mean, a lot of a lot of people actually just uh watched this interview and uh with a guy that said at 15 that's when parenting actually kind of stops mentally for the child. Now, I don't know if that's true or not. I haven't studied it, but he said if if you haven't ingrained, you know, um morals, values, all those type of things intimately into your child by that point, it the it gets dramatically harder by that point.

unknown 9:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Um, and I and working with kids, I'd say that's probably not that far off base. Yeah. Right. I mean, there's this pivotal. I mean, I'm even seeing it now with my almost 20-month-old uh that sin nature of disobedience. Um, right now we're in the phase of throwing things. He likes to throw his toys. He's got an arm. That kid he that kid's going baseball.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Oh my gosh. But uh you see that and he'll he'll pick something up and hey, don't throw that, and he'll look right at you and throw it anyway. Yeah. It's just amazing. You know, how young it starts. Yeah. Um, and if it's not addressed early, right?

SPEAKER_02 10:29

Um, there's plenty of stories I think she would love to share at this moment.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Oh boy, should we get her on here? Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Yeah, she would have some good ones. Yeah. There's a few of them that are on repeat, so I know exactly which ones.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Is she still here in St. Clemente? Yeah. She is a wonderful super involved at Cornerstone. Is she wonderful? She's one of my leaders in my children's class. What's her name? Children's class, Diane. Diane. She's the best. Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Well, I'll hope to meet her. Yeah. I'll ask her about some stories. I'd love it. Um, so now because we both grew up here, about what year was that? Um about what year? Oh two. Oh two. Oh man. So older. I mean, Talaga was just being freshly built, probably not finished yet. Yeah. Uh the Allants were there, so it was the tomato fields at that point. Yep. Uh, was there still just dirt on top at Visthermosa, or was the bridge completed by that point? Because I remember when it was just dirt on top.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

I'd imagine it was just dirt. I think it was just dirt. Yeah. So you could being a kid at that age in this town, you could find ways to get in trouble. Okay. Yeah. Uh yeah. Um, I I tell my wife who didn't grow up here, uh, what it was like, and like, oh, this used to be this. This used to be nothing. And um, it was awesome. It it was it was it was a lot of fun. Uh yeah. I'm I'm just I'm a few years younger. Right. Um, but I remember all of that, you know, riding bikes in that canyon and everything. Um so so she gives you the choice, and you decide, all right, I'm done with this church thing. Yeah. And you don't go back.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

I don't until I was 24. 24. Yeah. 20 uh yeah, maybe a little bit after 24.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

So what filled that void?

SPEAKER_02 12:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

Like what what 14, not going to church anymore, what filled in that gap?

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Yeah. Um, so I grew up aggressive rollerblading. Okay. That was um my sole focus in life. Uh was just skating. Yeah. Skating with friends. Uh, it kept me out of a lot of trouble for a while. Um, and then, you know, as you get older, sometimes the people you're hanging out with get in, you know, start getting into other habits that, you know, in you and then they introduce to their friends. And yeah. And most of my friends were older. I had older groups and then a few actually, like a younger group that I skated with. Um, yeah. So so that honestly, like 20 plus years, like skating was like my life. Um, yeah, pretty much you know, I skated a little bit as a Christian, but that was like my first love, and then and then Christ came into my life, and then Christ was, you know, he took the center stage. Yeah, basically.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:24

So that was the main thing, but then uh, you know, this hurts in my life just led to void and anger and uh self-destruction and just just really dysfunctional relationships and uh fell into, you know, drug drug abuse, alcohol abuse, um, people abuse.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Oh wow. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

So yeah, my my late teens, young adulthood were really dysfunctional.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Yeah. Did you stick around here or did you kind of move away, come back?

SPEAKER_02 14:00

Uh I stuck around here. I stuck around here.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

I haven't gone very far. Yeah. Yeah, I understand. Yeah. Um, so when when did the drugs and alcohol start? I imagine high school. Yeah, 17. 17.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

Um, and was this something that was involved in your life or did it become an addiction? Was this something that you couldn't rid of rid yourself of?

SPEAKER_02 14:24

Yeah. No, it was it was uh a really quick spiral. Um you know, and and my brother was struggling at the time. So I, you know, I got introduced to a lot of things through him. Um and then, you know, I bring that to my friends and all that kind of fun. Yeah, terrible stuff. And uh yeah, so that that really took over, you know. That was that was the that became the center of my life for many years. And and uh yeah, and I abused pretty, you know, hard drugs for it was a I I was a quick learner, you know. I learned the the reality of of my pitfalls pretty early on, so God's grace um really helped me quit using drugs earlier on. Uh I would say I only used drugs till 18, and then I was sober for about a year and a half, and I went to a rehab in St. Clemeni. Um, you know, started considering my faith. They had a Christian track there. I'm I'm still associated with that rehab now. They had a Christian track there that kind of helped, you know, start some conversations um that were really important, and uh, but then I didn't have the community. I didn't have the community. Yeah. Um, I was clean, I I was sober, but I wasn't, you know, I wasn't going to church. I didn't even know what a Christian community looked like. I personally did not know that was something that existed that I knew. Yeah. You just knew your mom's face. Yeah. I just thought this was the way that people lived. Yeah. The way that I lived and the way that the people lived around me. That was just what I thought people did. Yeah. You know? Um, and then I started drinking after about a year and a half. I started drinking casually with friends, and one thing led to another. Um, and that progressed into really, really bad drinking in my young and young adult years. Um, to about 24. And uh when I was 24, um, my best friend at the time, we were, you know, we we would co-sign each other's nonsense, you know. We were sure closest person to me, uh, you know, closer, closer than family. Uh, he killed himself. Oh. And um I'm sorry. So my drinking got worse. Sure. Definitely got way worse. Blacking out regularly. And when I black out, all my anger would come out on whoever's around. Yeah. It was just bad. Um until one day, I remember the day uh I was 24, I was in my living room, and uh, you know, I was just in this deep despair, and uh Christ just just revealed to me what I think is probably the first wise thought I've ever had, you know, um, where it's just like, all right, this is the path you're on leading to death and destruction. Uh but this is the path I'm gonna take you on. You know, you you can come down this this new path of life. And uh and at that point, I I got sober, I stopped drinking. Um, I still had a lot of shame and guilt. I still had a lot of numbness. Um, and my mom just that probably a few years behind that, up to this point, every week she'd be like, Hey, you want to go to church? Hey, you want to go to church? So I don't know at what point she started asking me again, but some point in my young adulthood, she just every week she was relentless. My mother's love. And I would just no, no, no, no. And then after that point, I may have said no a few more times, uh, but then I was just like, All right, I'll go with you. I'll go with you. And uh that is how I ended up going to the church where I met Kristen. Which was what church? Uh that was Mariner's Mission Viejo.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Oh, sure. Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

So so your mom at some point landed at Mission Viejo.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

She did.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Got it.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

She did. Um she had been there for a few, I think went for a few years without me.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

Yeah. And then eventually I started going with her.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Now, during that time when as you're describing this, I mean, this dark period of life and um just angry and uh abusing alcohol and whatnot, was there ever now that you're kind of way out of that, do you look back and see the um Easter eggs you could say that God was leaving you through that period and kind of knocking, like, are you sure you want to continue this? Or or was this a period where you were just so involved in what you were doing that you couldn't even see what the Lord was? There was no no breadcrumbs that the Lord was leaving you. What what was the Lord kind of knocking in the back of your head? Or or was this in that apartment, that moment that you spoke about, was this like a huge kind of Jesus meeting type uh moment?

SPEAKER_02 19:30

Um No, there's plenty, plenty of moments that that God was trying to get my attention, that Jesus was drawing me in. And uh and and I never denied I never denied Christ. I thought I was a Christian this entire time. Um you know, so so I I regret the sin that I lived in, but what I regret most is that I I was falsely representing Christ.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

Um, you know, claiming to be a Christian, but just like just so far from anything that represents Christ. And and that, that, you know, I look back at it, that that hurts probably the most there. Um but I remember one moment um when I was 19, I had just gotten a back tattoo. And uh, like I said, my family's all my uh my family, extended family's distant. Uh there was a picture on Facebook about it uh on my page, and my cousin showed it to my grandma. And then my grandma called, my grandma's the best, my grandma's the best, totally very godly woman, uh, loves the Lord. So she calls my mom and she just starts crying, and she says, now he's never gonna be a pastor. No, and I was just when I heard this, I was like, what is this lady talking about? Oh boy, what is she talking about? Me being a pastor. This is like the most absurd thing I've ever heard. Yeah, furthest thing from your mind. Where did this come from? So my grandma just knew. My grandma just knew what God was doing, and uh, so I love th I I don't know, I love reflecting on that. But there's been there's many other moments that the Lord was was um trying to get my attention and I was drowning it out plenty of times.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Yeah. What what do you think was it was I I don't want to say it that way. What do you think was at the root of obviously we know sin, yeah, right? This the sin is what brings distance between us and the Lord, right? But what looking back at that time, what do you think was the the cause of you not wanting to be close to the Lord? We can say sin as this broad term, but was it hurt from family? Was this just what do you think it was?

SPEAKER_02 22:00

I I don't I think one of the if I if I had to say what the biggest issue was, it would be trusting that God has a better life for me, trusting that God was going to take care of me, that he cared about me. Um I remember that in my early, you know, early Christian walk was just slowly peeling the layers off, like, all right, God, you're calling me out of this. Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna trust you here. Like I literally remember these moments of like, all right, I'm gonna pull the crutch out and see if you catch me. Yeah. One by one, obviously he did, but then just that that hard time trusting. But I would say the the sin, what what happened, and and some of the hardships from my life, what they did is just make me really just in this self-pity uh state of of victimizing myself, uh, where everything was was pointing inward, everything was pointing to me, everything was about me, everything was selfish, prideful. Um and through that I just couldn't see, you know, I was just a fool, honestly. I was a fool. I was a fool, so I I couldn't see the big picture, couldn't see the reality that that life's not about me. Yeah, you know. Um but yeah, so those things were leading to living the way I was living, where it was just self-gratification and uh self-justification.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Yeah. And so that moment in your apartment what happened? Like what what changed? What what made you leave that behind? And obviously it wasn't a big old switch, right? There was a process of sanctification of like you talked about getting rid of crutches and getting rid of stuff, but what was different about that moment? What changed?

SPEAKER_02 23:58

That was the first moment of trust. That was the first moment of trust. Um and yeah, it wasn't like a um wasn't a s it wasn't like a an experiential moment just because I was so numb and just so deeply low. Um and but but as I was able to get clear headed, clear hearted, um, clear mind, you know, just just even just getting sober. Uh honestly, I I was I I felt you know poisoned and hung over for like two months, honestly. Sure. So I was just it took a little bit of time.

SPEAKER_04 24:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

But uh as as I started going to church, I started listening to what I was hearing. I started bel believing what I was hearing um and loving what I was hearing, and and I just felt God just just slowly just softening my heart. Just He gave me a new heart. He gave me a new heart, and He was just pumping life into me. Um my view of myself was really low, so it took, you know, it took some of the reality of just really listening to the words of Jesus, the truth of Scripture, um for me to see, like, okay, I think I've been viewing things wrong. I think I've been viewing things uh the wrong way. Yeah, yeah. My worldview has not been a biblical worldview.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

Yeah. So you're I mean you're going from the lowest to low, and now you're in church, you're hearing uh preaching the gospel, you're being sanctified, the the weariness of the world is being torn away from you, and life is being breathed into you.

SPEAKER_03 25:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

So um what is life turning into now in those moments? What you you talk about you know, your mind is being changed, your soul is being changed. So how is life changing now?

SPEAKER_03 26:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:06

So I still didn't have like a community. So that was the hardest part, uh, I think those first couple years, and I think that kind of was was such a that it it slowed down the the progressive sanctification, you know. It took some time because I didn't have people pushing and leading and guiding me and and encouraging me as you know the church is called to do. Yep. Right. So I didn't, you know, it was it was a larger size church of the time, not what it is today. Sure. But you know, it was five, six hundred people. Um of course I'm walking in there, I'm bringing all my shame in there, I feel, you know, like not good enough, kind of scared to meet people at first, right? And you know, I still had my friends, and and they, you know, they they weren't bad people or anything like that necessarily, but they they weren't people who were moving in this direction in life. Right. Um and you know, uh kind of what happened is just over time God would just reveal areas in my life that were were sh interfering, as we're talking about, sin areas in my life, and just one by one I'd have to eliminate them. And and eventually I I just realized I I need to start like meeting some people who are doing the same thing as me. Yeah. You know, um, I want to start meeting people and I don't know how. So I started, you know, joining groups. Yep. I started uh to serve, right? And you know, like my life was still about me. Sure. Right. So I had this this uh kind of wrestle of like, all right, like I want my life to be about Jesus, but my life is I'm just still selfish, right? And I'm like, everything revolves around me. I'm like, okay, so how do I how do I stop that? And it's like, well, okay, well, start thinking about Jesus and start thinking about other people. That's right. So I do that, yeah, getting in groups and starting to serve. And and so uh after a few years, right, I I started to, I wanted to serve. And um I started serving in what what we called the homeless ministry at the time. There we had a three different ones at the time. Um, our friend Danielle was leading all three of them. She was just like a champion. But um there was one ministry that we had that was for transitional housing. So people would uh secure um transitional housing through the Salvation Army, where they'd get a year in this uh apartment. But uh when they would transition, they wouldn't have any furniture, they wouldn't have anything. Yeah. So they'd be given the keys, but then they just have this empty place. Sure. So what we would do is we would just collect donations and then when we'd uh be notified that someone was moving into transitional housing, we go, you know, empty the storage unit, bring over a bunch of stuff, and just fill, fill the apartment.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Um make it feel more homey.

SPEAKER_02 28:58

Yeah, make it their home. Yeah. So so that was something I could get behind right away. I'm like, okay, these are kind of these are my people. Yeah. Right. They've they've struggled many of them have struggled the same way I have. I can talk to these people. I feel I feel normal, right? Um uh like, you know, I'm I'm not like a super Christian yet, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 29:17

Uh, but but these kind of people, I can, I can spend time.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Putting their hands and doing something about it.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

I mean, you community, we're not just saved out of something, we're saved into. Yes. We are a gathered people. Yeah. We are saved into a gathered people. And and nowhere in scripture do I see this person was saved and then not be a part of a body. No. We read this in the New Testament of the church here or the church there or the church here, you know, and we are we are meant to gather. Yeah. Um we we are not to be islands. No. That's what Satan wants. Satan wants us to be islands, absolutely, right? To just go off and say things like, Well, I'm a Christian, but I don't attend church on Sunday. Yeah. Right? That yeah. No, you are meant to be there. It doesn't line up. No, it doesn't line up. And it, I mean, that's I mean, everything you're saying, that was a big missing piece for you.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

It was, it was. And yeah, so I but I was still intimidated to be around what what I would view as the people who have it all put together, right? Like, which is, you know, what I thought was everyone else, but obviously in reality, now I know that's not the case. Like we're all we're all broken people, just trying to survive in a broken world, and we all need Jesus.

SPEAKER_03 30:35

Like, yep.

SPEAKER_02 30:36

That's that's the reality of it, you know. But at the time, of course, I didn't I didn't know the reality of the situation. I didn't know what scripture, uh, the truths of God uh declared about this. So I just felt like, oh, I I'm not there yet. So this ministry, though, I feel like I could do. And, you know, and so I started doing that. And I met um, I met this guy, Matt, doing that. He helped me move in some furniture. Uh, he was one of the other volunteers at the church. And and then I saw him a few months later at a uh we would revamp an elementary school once a year. There's a really big project, uh, tons of volunteers, tons of jobs. And um, I had done it, done it a couple, a couple times already. So so I went to help. There's like a prep day to prep for the serve day the day before. So I went and I saw Matt again, and and he was a junior high leader.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

And he was telling me that, oh, you know, we really need guy leaders. We really need guy leaders. And what I didn't know at this time, Kristen had come on staff about two months earlier.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

And could could tell that a lot of the leaders were getting kind of burnt out. They're faithful leaders, but they're just, you know, exhausted.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Junior high ministry is rough. Yeah. Uh it is not for the weary.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

No, it is not. It is not. And it was a growing ministry. It was really fruitful. It was it was great. So, with that, obviously, people are just, you know, tired. So she's telling everyone, hey, we need to find some more leaders. We need to find some more leaders to come in here, you know. And and so, you know, Matt tells me, hey, you know what? We need some guy leaders. And I didn't, I did not follow up with that.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Um, had you ever worked with kids before this at all?

SPEAKER_02 32:27

I had. I had okay, all right.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

So it wasn't completely new to you.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

It wasn't, it wasn't, but but I just, you know, I I and then I left. I left. The I was just listening, you know, and I and then later I left the prep after we'd finished, and I just felt this conviction, you know. I had, you know, I had a growing, growing conviction. I was in a season of just I just want to follow my convictions.

SPEAKER_04 32:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

And and I had this conviction that was just telling me, you know, I just felt like God was putting on my heart, like, oh, you should have asked. You should have asked more about it, or you should, you should have, you should have said something, you know, and and um the next day was serve day, and I I was just praying on the way there, and I just remember just saying, All right, God, if I see Matt, I'll give him my number. But I'm probably not gonna see him. I'm not gonna see him. There's like a thousand people at this event. Sure. Like there's no, I'm probably not gonna see him.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

Was this all Mariners campuses or is this specifically just Mission VA? Just Mission VR. Just Mission VR.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

But but it was, yeah, it was just a really big event. Yeah. And I just thought, well, there's there's so many people here. There's no way. And I and I park, and uh the person in front of me parked, and we both got out, and it was Matt. It was Matt. And I was just like, no. Okay, now I gotta do it. I was like, all right, Lord. So I was like, okay, Matt, hey, you know, I sure gave you my number. Uh here, take my number down, you can give it to the junior high pastor. And he said, Oh, let me just go grab her. So he brings over, and that's how I met my wife. Um were you uh love it for sight right away? Um she really liked me at first. I could tell, like, she was she could not hide it very well. Like right away.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

I'm gonna have to have her on her get her uh perspective on this.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Yeah, she was super nervous, and and I was with my mom, you know. I've come to serve, I'm coming to serve too. Oh man, you got mom right next to you. And uh I could just tell that she liked me and and we were talking, and and you know, I thought she was you know beautiful and and and cute and funny, and so I spent the whole day with her.

SPEAKER_04 34:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 34:33

You know, I spent the day, okay. So I served at serve day with the junior hires, and uh we I was working on mulch in the playground, and and the the lead pastor, senior pastor was was doing buckets of mulch, and we just were like kind of made eye contact, and I could tell it turned into like a all right, let's see who can like you know move more trash cans full of mulch, you know, stuff.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

It was like a funny guy moment, you know. But but each time I'd come back for another trash can, Kristen would like ask me a question.

SPEAKER_02 35:03

Uh like she was like interviewing me the whole time I'm trying to serve, just like nonstop questions. And um, because she was just nervous, and uh I could tell, you know, she took her job very seriously, which is good, which is very good.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

She she she's always been a very intentional person, very very and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

So I I I finished that day basically um signing up to serve uh in junior high. And at the same time, the high school pastor was looking for leaders, so they're going to camp like the next week, and then then um, so I I go and I do like an official uh official interview with Kristen and I run into the the high school pastor that day too. But that was really interesting. Um, she she thought it was really uncomfortable because it would she says it was the first time she had an interview for a leader, and and she'd ask a question, and then I would just ask her right back. I'd be like, So what about you? Interviewing her back. Yeah, and like I just wanted to get to know her. And she's like, This is weird. Leaders don't do this. Like, you they just answer questions as they're presented, and it's more of an interview, and I was treating it as a all right, we're getting coffee together. Yeah, we're gonna have a conversation, we're getting coffee together. This is great. So um, you know, I I knew my intentions, intentions pretty quick, honestly. Pretty quick, but then the high school pastor grabbed, you know, talked to Kristen, was like, Hey, do you think he'll go to high school camp next week? So I spent the whole summer doing high school and junior high. Oh, Lord bless you.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

Um, so I was all in. I was all in. Had you ever gone to a camp? No. Never. Never. Oh boy. Yeah. Oh boy. And what which camp did you go to?

SPEAKER_02 36:55

Um, it was a it was uh Hume Lake, but it was just down in San Diego. They did it. Oh, yeah, I remember that.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

Remember they they had that for a hot minute. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

It was awesome.

SPEAKER_02 37:03

Yeah, it was awesome. Yeah, again, I'm I'm still in you know, somewhat newer Christian. Uh, so I've never had like a camp experience like this. I did have some when I was really young, I went to some camp. Sure. Not quite like that. Yeah. It was more like um in Michigan, we'd go and everyone brought their RV or their tents and you camp out, and there's you know, there's definitely still some youth group elements and stuff. But this is very different, very different.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

And especially being on the counselor side, yeah. Did you come home and just pass out exhausted? It was awesome. It was great. It was awesome.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

I liked it. I loved it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Oh, yeah. Camp camp season, you gotta prep for it. It's awesome. And then when it's over, it's just like, I'm gonna go sleep for two days.

SPEAKER_02 37:46

Yeah, pretty much. And uh and Kristen was texting me questions during high school camp. Okay, and I would just text back, so how are you doing? Yeah, how are things going? You know, and she's like, Oh, this is this is probably not what should be happening right now, you know. Like she because she knew obviously to me, I just see a beautiful woman and I I want to get to know her more. But to her, she's like, All right, I'm a new pastor here. Yep, and uh I this is my leader. Yeah, this is this could be a bad move. Scandal all over it. Could be, yeah. Um, yeah, pretty much. So we we uh I asked her out after a couple weeks. Oh, okay. All right, how'd you do it? Uh honestly, I just wanted to get to know her. It wasn't, I wasn't even planning on being on a date, and she still still brings this up to this day. I wasn't planning on it being a date. I was like, oh, you want to grab dinner and go bowling? And sure. And uh, and then she she told me, she's like, uh, I'm kind of busy, I don't have time, let's just get dinner. So then I was like, you know what? Let's just make this a you know, in my head, I'm like, all right, that sounds more like a date to me. Yeah. So I made it a date without actually asking her on a date. And so she didn't know it was a date until she realized I invited her to like a steakhouse. Because I changed, I was like, all right, let's make this like a date. So I invited her to a steakhouse and she's like, this is weird. Nice. So um our second date was our first official date official because I asked her on a date. Okay. So I I, you know, I'll be honest, she she helped me understand what real dating looks like. Okay. Um in my life, most of my relationships, you know, they they just weren't very healthy. Her my my relationship with my wife was my first healthy relationship. First relationship that was done right, you know, and first relationship that was uh, yeah, I think, you know, honored God.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

Yeah. Um, so you So did you guys have to kind of keep it under wraps for a while?

SPEAKER_02 39:42

We did.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 39:43

We did just just for the summer. Okay. Just to make sure we we wanted to make sure this is something we wanted to pursue. Yep. And then once uh we realized it was, um, then we talked to her boss and he actually asked me to step out for a bit. And I took that kind of hard because we like just went to youth camp, like right before that. And I was like, Yeah, I'm gonna be your leader. And then uh then I was told not to be a leader. It's like, whoops. Um, but it was all you know, I I look back and uh, you know, hindsight's 2020, I know it's exactly what God was calling us to do. Yep. Um but yeah, so amazing little moments, amazing, it was an amazing summer of just like chaos, but beautiful chaos.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

Yeah, yeah. And so how long did you guys date for?

SPEAKER_02 40:33

We dated. Um I proposed at 11 months.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:40

And then we were engaged for seven.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

Wow. So a year and a half until we got married. So now during all this time, what are you doing? What are you doing for work? Yeah. What what what what what's kind of your career occupation at the time? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:55

Um, so my my dad passed away in in when I was 26. So it wasn't even that long before this, honestly. Um, and through that, my brother and I invested in a few things and had some residual income going on. So I was still trying to figure out what to do with my life. I spent about two years not working and just living off of money that I was making. And so everything was about me.

unknown 41:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:23

Like this is kind of, I spent two years of just, you know, golfing when I wanted to, snowboarding when I wanted to, going to the gym when I wanted to. Like everything was just about me. Yeah. And that's what that's what really led me to like, I need to stop doing stuff about me. Like, I need to get out of this, this rut of just me, me, me, me, me. So that's when I started serving.

SPEAKER_00 41:43

So um which is also not easy to do in Orange County. Yes. Yes, yes. When that is the mentality.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

It is, yeah. It really is. There's a consumer mentality. Um, yeah, it's rough. Yeah. But uh, so at this point, as I was, you know, told to take a step back, um, I started working in a in a rehab. I started working with high schoolers in a rehab of high schoolers. Wow. Um, long-term residential rehab. Yeah, wow. Yeah. And uh high schoolers. Yeah, it was rough. I lost a lot of hair that time that year I was with them. Uh it was tough. It was tough. Um, but it was it was beautiful, had some great moments with these kids. They all knew I was the Christian guy. Gave me a lot of them gave me a hard time about it, honestly. I had a few, you know, sweet moments of conversations though. And but I I, you know, I loved these kids. I loved these kids, and and that was a great opportunity. And, you know, at this time I felt like that's what God was still still calling me to. I felt God was calling me to, hey, I want to help people who've gone through some of these same struggles that I've gone through. Yeah. And um, and then after that, I I started a recovery ministry at our church. And that's when I started interning. I started interning there while I was also working in a rehab. Um and uh actually in at my second rehab I was working at this time, and we trying to think if we were married yet. Yeah, I started the internship after we were married. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 43:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:18

After we were married, this was after the merge.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

When when uh when it became Mariner's South OC, right? Yes. I remember that. I remember that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

So I started interning during that, and uh merges are challenging. Yes. Merges are challenging. Yes. Uh, you know, you have two people for every role, you have um a a growing congregation that's still adjusting, you have um a lot of exhausted people. Yes. Yeah. So I, you know, and during that year, I saw a lot of people that transitioned off staff. Sure. And it was hard, and and my wife was one of them eventually. Eventually. And uh so I was interning, I started recovery ministry, and then I was also helping in junior high again.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

Um, so I was doing both. That's what my and my internship was kind of under both. Sure. Um, and I had a supervisor named Tim Keller, who's just an awesome guy. He's awesome. Um not the Tim Keller. Not the Tim Keller. Not the I should clarify, not the Tim Keller.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

Not the Tim Keller.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

R I P. Rest in peace. Yes, absolutely. Um, but yeah, so that that was a, you know, it was an interesting season. Um, the recovery ministry, it only lasted for a short season, um, toward the end of my internship. And basically that's when I felt the call. Okay. And it was honestly through hardship. It was through hardship. This was two that was 2019. And um, you know, my wife had transitioned off just because she was so exhausted. Yep. Um had, you know, really growing ministry. I think like 150 kids. Um, had one part-time uh intern and just didn't, you know, she she was just going too hard.

SPEAKER_00 45:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:16

Going too hard for too long. So she needed to just take care of herself for a bit. So she transitioned off. And uh, like I said, a lot of people were leaving, a lot of people that I knew were transitioning. So it just felt like the time um, as my internship was ending, I ended up joining with a uh a church that was planting out of them as uh to just get more of like in a pastoral experience. Sure. Like so with a small team, a small, smaller church that was planting, I just decided, all right, at that point I felt, okay, I think God is calling me to be a pastor. So for the first time that I felt like, okay, who I was doesn't matter. That's uh who I was is gone. Yes, you know, because uh I I avoided the call.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

Did you feel that the nudging of the Lord, like I'm pushing you this way? Did you go into the internship kind of thinking it was gonna go that way, or did you go in there just as an experience to learn and serve?

SPEAKER_02 46:21

I just wanted to start a recovery ministry. Okay, I just was like, all right, I think there's people here who could benefit from it. Sure. So uh, because I still had that heart. Yeah, that's that was still the the people group that God had on my heart. And I'm just like, you know what? Like I'm working in a rehab, but I feel like the church is full of people who need help too. Yeah, amen. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 46:41

So we're all sinners saved by grace, but we're still sinners, right?

SPEAKER_02 46:44

Absolutely. So so that's that's really that was my I was not expecting to work at the church. Um, but I, you know, toward the end of the internship, it it was kind of a now what moment, you know?

SPEAKER_03 46:56

Now what moment.

SPEAKER_02 46:57

But it kind of felt uh it just felt like like I just felt kind of lost. I felt kind of lost. Um my supervisor had also been one of the people who had transitioned out. Um my wife had transitioned out. So I just kind of felt like, all right, this is kind of the end, I think, of my time here. Sure. Um and and I just felt this. I just felt God putting on my heart, like, okay, I I think I I am being called into a position to to be the person who can pour into people's lives more. Um so at that point I finally accepted the reality that I thought God was calling me to become a pastor. I just felt it felt really clear, like I think God is calling me to be pastor.

SPEAKER_00 47:45

Um what year approximately was this?

SPEAKER_02 47:47

This was 2019.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

2019, yeah. Okay, six years ago.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

Yeah, and I joined uh, as I said, a small plant that came out of that church, and uh it was called Mission Life Church. Okay, and um it went independent, unfortunately, uh just at the wrong time. COVID wrong time, yeah. And so it was a it was a new church. Um, you know, it was it was around already for about I think a year before I came on, so it was still pretty pretty new. And so we went independent honestly, I think October. And then everything, you know, so we were we were independent for like three or four months, and then all of a sudden it was like, okay, you guys can't meet together anymore.

SPEAKER_03 48:35

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 48:35

It's just like COVID was what we didn't have any, we didn't have, you know, we weren't streaming. Yeah, because we were we were meeting at the kaleidoscope. Oh so we weren't streaming, it was a shared space, you know. We we just had it on Sundays, everything set up tear down. Um it's a lot of work, yeah. So so the position I thought I was coming into obviously had dramatically altered overnight. Like, okay, well, all right, you're you're overseeing groups, um, figure out how to do that online. It's like, all right, figure out how to do that, you know. So it's just it was a it was a challenging season, and and kind of you know, at the end we ended up closing, yeah. Unfortunately, uh, you know, at the end of the internship, and and I kind of got in another moment of just like now what? I'm kind of stuck, like door shut, door shut. Yeah, back to back. And um I was going to seminary at this time. I I went to Fuller. Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 49:35

When did you start seminary?

SPEAKER_02 49:36

Was it at that point? At the end of the first internship.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

Wow, Fuller. Yeah. Why? So out of all the seminaries, I love asking this question. Why Fuller? It's a great question. Fuller Fuller Fuller is a very unique seminary. It is. So why why did you choose that one?

SPEAKER_02 49:53

Um I liked at the at the time, I I view it differently now. At the time, I liked that it was kind of middle of the road.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

Um, it, you know, I was hearing a lot of really good things from about it from the people I was going to church with, some of the other leaders there, and um was middle of the road, kind of lets you form your own positions on things. Yeah. They just they did a really, really great job of just presenting all the positions on things and allowing you to determine them. You know, obviously not not her heretical ones necessarily, but like, all right, say if you're in a Bible class, like, all right, these are kind of the the main positions of this text. Um, you know, and you get to determine and look at the research, look at the commentaries, and decide what you think uh the text is. And so I did like that about the school. I look back at it now and I wish I had uh a little bit more guidance because I was honestly, it was too early for me to go to seminary. It was too early for me to do that. Yeah. Fuller Fuller gives you a fire hose. I was not formed enough to go to Fuller. So it was it was definitely a fire hose. I had no idea what I was getting into.

SPEAKER_00 51:09

What was the um purpose of you going to seminary? Was it simply you had a desire to learn? Was it hey, I'm called to be a pastor, and this is just simply the next step? Was it a combination of that? Was somebody in your life driving you towards this? What what what was kind of going on to make you choose seminary?

SPEAKER_02 51:32

Yeah. Um I would say uh a combination of wanting to grow and and wanting to become a pastor and feeling like that would be helpful for that. And I really did enjoy school at this time. Um honestly, right before this, I finished uh um a master's degree focused on addiction counseling. Wow. And then God put it on my heart, like, you know what? Like, I think your season in in rehabs is is done for now. Um because I I just felt like I was working in, you know, in in secular rehabs.

SPEAKER_00 52:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:08

And Jesus is what changed my life.

SPEAKER_00 52:11

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 52:12

My only my only saving grace. Um, but I'm not teaching that in rehabs. I'm teaching, you know, secular secular tools, which can be helpful. Some can be helpful, right?

SPEAKER_00 52:25

The truth shall set you free.

SPEAKER_02 52:27

The truth shall set you free. And in the reality, for me, like the goal is always Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 52:34

It's it's more than sobriety, right? Um, so I just you know, I got hit in the forehead, just like, dude, uh, you know, I think I I think I should, you know, all this is kind of coming together. And I'm like, I I think I should become a pastor. So I go back to school, and Kristen's just like, all right. You have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

She went through something. She went to Talbot, or where did she go? Um, she went to APU. That's right. That's right. Okay. Yeah. She she knows she knew when you said that what you were going into.

SPEAKER_02 53:04

Yeah, she got a full ride to APU. She nailed it. She did she really in three years, got her MJ in three years. She nailed it. Wow. She's she is I mean so impressive in so many ways. I knew she I didn't know that. Yep. Yeah. That's a big deal. Yeah. That's wow. Okay. Absolutely. Um, so I go married to. That's what we're married to. I don't know. I did not, I do not, I, I do not deserve her. You know, she took a a risk on me. Like she lived a very different life than me. She came to the Lord at 13. Uh, at 13, Jesus revealed himself to her, you know, drew her to him, and and her life dramatically changed. And her whole life was, you know, obviously she she still she still had sin in her life. I'm not saying she was perfect, but but from a young age, she was walking the right path, right? And and I'm just uh come from a background of just being a knucklehead and learning from like smashing, smashing myself, right? I'm learning from my failures, right? And and you know, my wife is growing up learning from the Lord in his in his word. My wife, she was telling me a story just to give you a little, a little background on her character. When she was 16, she worked at a um, I don't want to get into specifics, so she worked at a convenience store, not like a grocery store, but like a larger, I guess you could say convenience store. We'll just call it that. I don't know. I'll just say it at longs. I don't know what you call longs. Yeah. Yeah, that's like I don't know if that's the best way to describe longs. But but she she worked at longs and people would come in with fake IDs, and she's 16, and she didn't feel right selling them alcohol. She's like, this is feels wrong. Yeah. And and her boss at the time said, Well, there's nothing we can really do about it. Like they have IDs, and you know, so we just sell it, we gotta sell them alcohol. Yeah, that was her boss, and you know, and I I didn't know this person, so I'm not there's no, you know, judgment there. But she she saw someone come in from her class and she just said, You're in my class. I'm not selling you alcohol. I know you are. And she's just like, I'm not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_04 55:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:28

So she she would rather do the right thing and stand up for what she believed in, knowing that could cause, you know, backlash at school. Yeah, you know, in high school is all about fitting in. Sure. And and that's just who my wife is. That's just who she is. She didn't, she just cares about what's right. Yep. She stands up for what is right, she stands up for the truth that that God provides us through his word, and uh doesn't care.

SPEAKER_00 55:53

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 55:54

Yeah, she's awesome. She's awesome. So I hear stories like that, and I'm just like, dude, how did I get so like God just blessed me so much? So she took a huge risk on me, you know, because she's been waiting for a man that God has been preparing for her, you know, thinking she was gonna have someone that had a similar background that she did. And, you know, uh, as we got seriously, as we were, you know, decided that it was serious, this is what we wanted to do, um we just had a serious sit-down, and I just kind of let her know, hey, this is this is you want to know everything about me? This is this is everything about me. And if you're gonna run down, this is it. Yeah, and she she you know, the Lord told it told her to take a chance on me. She she felt terrified, but but felt like that's what God is calling her to do. Wow. Yeah. And you know, so I'm I I'm very blessed, uh, very blessed to have my wife. Um I kind of forgot where we were.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

We were talking about seminary. Yeah. Uh you had started, and um I mean, so how did Kristen help you from time to time with seminary? Um she'd already kind of been through that. There's definitely some things I ran by her, but I did, um, not as much as I should.

SPEAKER_02 57:13

I look back at it and I I should have definitely invited her into more of that. You should have had her write a couple papers. Um she probably wouldn't have done it.

SPEAKER_01 57:24

Yeah, she definitely would not have done that.

SPEAKER_02 57:26

Uh, but but at this time, you know, after like this, this was a hard time. This is a hard time. We're learning how to be married. Yeah, right. Um, and I don't know about all of you who are listening. First year of our marriage was hard because uh we're two people who were raised two different ways with two different expectations, um different ways that we prefer things and didn't know how to communicate those things. Yep. So so if anyone's having a hard time early in marriage, I just want you to know you're not the first, you're not alone. Uh there's a lot of learning. There's a learning curve of the first year of marriage, big time. Oh, yeah. Big time. Um, so this is a hard season, you know. We're we're getting to know each other. Um, I was at a plant that closes. Uh we're locked down in our tiny little, tiny little condo in uh Rancho Santa Margarita. Um, I'm full-time in seminary. Luckily, I was online, so I was already online anyways, so I didn't have to have any kind of transition. So that worked out really well. Um, and I'm just getting a fire hose of information, just getting just just destroyed by all this stuff I'm trying to learn. And I'm just like so overwhelmed. So it was kind of it was a tough, it was a tough it was a tough year for many people, right?

SPEAKER_00 58:52

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:53

And then there's all these different elements that are coming up, you know, all these different movements going on that are, you know, uh, you know, making you reflect and and they're challenging and and uh you know, even deceptive, and and all these things work their way into seminary too. Yeah, you know, as these events happen and there's these movements going on, they come up in class, and uh, you know, they're they're just it was it was kind of a heart just kind of wrenching time.

SPEAKER_00 59:28

Heart wrenching time. I mean I mean everything stopped.

SPEAKER_01 59:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:34

And we were forced to live a life that we didn't plan, didn't cause. I mean, if everything changed. Yeah. Overnight, it felt like. And we were just simply supposed to adjust. And sometimes alone. That was thing alone. That was I remember that Easter. We watched Easter on our T. That's how we did Easter. Yep. But that's not the way it's supposed to be. And I mean, everything was affected from the top down. I mean, the this is an era that our kids will be taught about, yeah. And we'll have to explain somehow. I don't know how we're going to, but we we'll have to.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:25

Um, I imagine there's church hurt involved, you know, with not only this plant, but then Kristen's going through that with her position.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:33

Yeah, she she was in bed for almost six months after she stepped down. She likes she couldn't. So when we got married, she was on staff for another six months, and then she stepped down, and then she she literally couldn't move. She barely like for six months, she was just in bed all the time. And I was so confused. I'm just like, what's happening? What is going on right now? Um, so you know, I was trying to care for my wife and take care of her, but confused, like, okay, we just got married. This is new. Um, I got seminary, neither of us can leave. Like, this is a weird what are we even doing? You know, what's going on in life? And uh really, yeah, she she she was not doing well. Um she just had serious adrenal fatigue, like really serious. Um nothing nothing I've ever seen before at the time. Right. Wow. Like she just could not function. Wow. She was just exhausted all the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:30

Um what what eventually got her out of that? What what what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:37

I imagine it was gradual, but I mean Yeah, some of it was time, and then some of it was you know, getting on different supplements and and just letting her body heal and uh and then slowly but surely like coming out of it. Yeah, yeah. And she also had lost her purpose, you know. She had stepped out of her calling, she was a junior high pastor for 11 years and didn't know like, okay, now what? You know, she's still young, she was we were 30 at this time, 30. I think 30. Um so it was just a you know, big transition. But that really opened up a great opportunity for me. Um one that I didn't expect about. So we spent maybe a year. I was just doing seminary, maybe less than a year, but then I got lunch with a uh an individual I met from the church that worked at the church after the merge. Uh his name was Jim Glenn. Oh Kristen worked with Jim. What a legend. Yeah. Kristen worked with Jim, and and when he found out that we we got engaged, he offered to to give us uh premarital counseling. Um and so we would meet once a week for dinner and talk about different things. And and he started sharing with me a ministry that he started calling he called Joshua House. Yep. It had been around for um 11 years at that time. And it's uh men's discipleship ministry, residential. Um, so it's men who struggle with addiction, uh, who just want to come to know the Lord, want to want to grow as Christian men and you know get back on their feet and live a life for Christ. And so I'm hearing about these ministries, this ministry. I was sharing about my my previous experience at uh at the rehabs and and now Joshua House, you attended Joshua House, is that right?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:42

Or no?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:43

Not not at this time, no. So so we fast forward a year, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:47

Well, I mean, when you were before you were a believer and you had gone through this, was this not? Okay, got it, got it.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:55

I went through a different rehab, you went through a different it's called Pack Hills, it's now called Covenant Hills. Okay, got it. Yeah, so so this is a ministry I didn't know about. Okay. Um, so fast forward, I I'm not working, I'm just at seminary, Kristen's at home, and uh she starts feeling better, and uh she gets a job in um in payment processing uh with a and and applies for a job and then recognizes the last name on an email she gets as she applies and realizes like, oh, this is one of the families from our church that we want that we went to. And and so she gets hired right away because they're just like, all right, let's have an interview. But they loved her, like yeah, like two two of their children were her students. Um, so it just worked out. She did, she did. So she started working there, and then I got lunch with Jim, and uh we talked, and then he just offered to create a position for me there. Wow. Um, which you know that it's just a huge blessing. Um I still had no idea what I was doing. Uh and I came in as the recovery pastor. Okay. And then I thought, you know, I I'll be honest, I came in thinking like, oh yeah, I got this. And then pretty quick, I'm like, wait, okay, so I know how to work in recovery, I know how to do case management uh and and you know counseling, but I realized like, oh, I don't know how to be a pastor. You went through the seminary, but I'm still in seminary. Okay. But I was just like, oh wait, yeah, okay, maybe maybe I don't don't know what I'm doing. I'm like, I'd never like created Bible studies. Yeah. I'd led, I'd led Bible studies, I'd led rooted and stuff like that. And I started that recovery ministry, but it wasn't like, all right, every week I'm gonna lead a Bible study, and you know, I get to create what I'm gonna talk about. Uh so that was like, oh, whoa, this is kind of an adjustment. So um, but it was a really, really amazing place, and uh, and I was there for five years. So I I just transitioned off actually l last month. And uh I am so grateful for Jim Glenn being my mentor and giving me that opportunity and helping me grow uh and and giving me the freedom um just to just to just prayerfully make an impact on the ministry and make adjustments and changes that that would help people grow as disciples. Yeah. And um I mean most you don't usually have those kind of opportunities to just just to have uh you know a free reign just to just to impact, just to change. Like, all right, this is gonna be the curriculum. All right, this is what I think the the structure should look like, and and just the willingness that he had to just let let go of things and just all right, like let me just kind of try some things out.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:54

And just for context, Jim, when I say a legend, uh he fits that description so well. Yeah, I mean, this is a guy that has been involved in ministry for probably 30 plus years, has planted at least one church that I'm aware of, but been involved in in main roles in other churches. Yep, established this ministry that you're speaking about. I mean, and all within the same vicinity, all the within Southern California, South OC, and has discipled so many people, pastors, all of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:36

And the amount of wisdom I can only imagine he was pouring into you with all that experience he had.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:42

I mean, and knowing him, his character, he's just a guy that you can just sit and have a conversation with. He's just that type. I mean, I could I could talk to him for hours.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:54

Yeah. Most most most of the guys that came through the ministry just viewed him as dad, totally, and his wife, Laura, as mom. Totally. Like they were just new parents for them. Like godly parents that just wanted to help care for them, each of these men. Um and and most of the men that would come through this ministry, like they they usually fell into one of three camps or multiple of them, you know, uh a background of gang affiliation, background of incarceration or homelessness. Yeah. Some all three. Um, everyone struggled with addiction. So, so some tough, tough personalities. Sure. I'll be honest. Some tough personalities would come through this, but but it just a beautiful brotherhood. A beautiful brotherhood, uh, that that really just you know centered on on the gospel, centered on honestly, pretty much house churches. It's basically what we were house churches, and they'd live together, they'd uh they'd worship together, they'd work together. We had a couple, we have a couple thrift stores, um, you know, and and through the generosity of the community that funded the entire ministry and it was free for a year. Um pay uh if there's you know fines or tickets or legal issues, we'd make sure people got taken care of. If people needed DUI classes, we'd get them enrolled. Um, if people had, yeah, we'd do whatever we could to get issues resolved for people to help them live a new life. And uh and then they graduate and we'd bless them with a with an affordable car, um, six months of insurance. So we would do everything we could, and this is all because of the generosity of the community around us. Um just a few couple thriving thrift stores.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:42

So let me ask you, working in that type of environment for as long as you did how were there I imagine throughout that time there was guys would come back. Um I mean, how often would people that you knew that came through that program, how often would they go back to the life they came from? Was that pretty common or it was? What is it is it they need to be completely removed from that environment and not go back? Is that a big factor of this? Or would it huge one?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:19

It's a huge one. I mean, so it's kind of hard, it it's a you know, it's not a black and white for everyone. You know, there's individuals who just didn't want what we were offering. So there's just people who clearly just needed somewhere to stay. They don't usually last very long.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:37

Um and and over time we got better at recognizing, hey, if if this person doesn't if they're not all in on what we're doing here as disciples of Jesus, like maybe it's not the right fit.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:50

Because don't they they have to go away before they stay in San Camone, right? They you guys have a ranch they go to first for three months?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:59

Two months, yeah. Two months at a at a ranch, and we would just say it's just beans, rice, and Jesus Christ. It's just Bible studies, you're in the middle of nowhere in the desert, uh detoxing, cleansing your mind, and and getting in the word. And yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:14

I imagine that's a pretty big barrier for some people to get over.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:17

It is, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's uh I've I there's not a lot of good things I've heard about those few months. Um, you know, most people, that's most most things I hear about it are complaints, but there are a few people that that look back and say, hey, I loved my time there. And you know, so those that's really beautiful to me. Um, but I also know like, so that's it if we have challenging personalities, like imagine those personalities two months earlier as they're detoxing off of hard drugs that some people have been doing for decades. And you know, so it's like it's it's really tough. It's a hard time for people. Yeah, no one's no one's happy to be there because you're just at the lowest point in your life. So so it's a very, very challenging uh time. So by the time people get to us, they're they're really excited to be in San Clemente, to be at the beach. To be at the beach. Yeah, they're not in the desert, they're at the beach. Um, you know, and and so it's it's a great opportunity. And yeah, so I'd say there, you know, there's some people who just don't really want to have this new life. Yeah, but then there's others that uh that they do really well and then they graduate and yeah, they move home and they have no community there, right? All they have is their old community, right? Their old memories and their old places that they spent time at. And so so it really goes back to that reality that we need that community to uh to really thrive. Like we we like you said, we're not just brought out of something, we're brought into something, right? So so it's the people who who have stuck around and relocated in the area and gotten planted at churches and are still involved and still come around, those are the people I see that are thriving.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:59

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So you were there for you said five years. Now we started this conversation by saying you're a pastor at Cornerstone St. Hilmany.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:12

So how did that come about? How did you go from working at Joshua House to then being introduced to a church that is quite literally just down the street?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:25

Two streets over. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:26

I mean, how how did that come about? I mean, obviously you and I both know Jim, Ron, those two are legends and have known each other for decades. Absolute legends. Um how how did how did you get connected in all this? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:43

So um after after my time had finished with mission life and I was doing seminary, we we were between churches, right? And and neither of us were obviously working, uh, neither of us were working at a church. And so we're in that kind of awkward situation where it's just like, well, where do you want to where do you want to go to church? Yeah, yeah. It's like we haven't had a choice in a long time. Where do you where do you want to go? So we're like trying to figure that out. And you know, we kind of did the circuit, you know, we spent six months to a year at a church, kind of reevaluated, hey, is this a church that we want to spend time at anymore? What are the things we like about it? What are the things that we're missing? And and the the element that was usually missing was community. So we'd be at one, and after six months, like, do we feel connected? And and we, you know, we didn't. So then we go to a next one and spend six months to a year, and do we feel connected? Uh, we may have been in a group in that one, knew some people, but not not really. So then we go to another one. We did that like four times. Wow. Three or four times. I mean, some of them weren't weren't as long as others, but we went through, you know, to quite a few churches and just felt like, all right. Well, more than a lot of people give a chance to. Yeah, and and you know, and you hate just looking at, oh, checking the boxes and all that stuff. But but the reality is like, you know, we we there uh there's important elements in finding the right church. And you know, obviously there there needs to be solid biblical teaching. Yep, number one. There needs to be solid community, yep, you know, and and so those are really the two boxes that that we needed. And um, so we were between churches again, and then Kristen was like, Why don't we just go to church with the guys at Joshua House?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:40

It's her idea, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:41

And she was like, We, you know, we there was a few weeks we invited some of the guys that came to church with us to the church we were going at at the time, and she was like, That was really cool. Like, why don't we just go to church with them? And uh so I'd heard so simple, I'd heard tons of amazing things about Cornerstone. Um and the funniest thing is I grew up in St. Clemeney and I literally had never seen this church. I had didn't did not know that it existed, and it had been there my whole life. It's just literally I never went down a street.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:13

I literally 50 plus years been there.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:15

Yeah, I had been working at at Joshua House for probably about two years at this point. Yeah, two years, because I've been at Cornerstone for three now, and I still had never seen it. I just didn't know where it was. It's literally two streets over. It's it's it's hidden a little bit, it's a little hidden, it's a little hidden, and yeah, I just somehow my whole life never went down that street. But uh, but uh one of you know, the house managers, his name's Mike, he would always talk about this guy named Ron. He'd always talk about Cornerstone in such a positive way. So um, so we decided to go. And and before that, I met Ron only only once, but I met him in a really beautiful way. I got to work and I was walking, uh, there's a back alley behind the thrift store, and I was walking up to the the back through the back alley up to the dock, and I just saw this this uh you know gentleman, early 60s, wavy silver hair.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:15

Was he barefoot?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:16

Barefoot, probably, and he's just in in a in a circle praying with all my guys. Yep. And I'm just like, who's sounds about right? Who is this guy? And then I meet him and you know, he introduces himself as Ron. I'm like, okay, I already I know who this guy is now because Mike's been telling me about this guy for two years. Um so so Ron was still a a part of Cornerstone at that time. He hadn't stepped down yet, but by the time we started attending, he had already uh he had already transitioned off of staff and retired and focused on uh New Dawn Communities, which is a uh nonprofit that has a few schools out in Africa that he helped start. Um and it's been helping run for uh 20 years now. But so we started going to Cornerstone and and uh we started sitting with the guys and I started seeing, you know, um I started seeing the way that that the guys were cared for by some of the the members there, and I started seeing just some of the connections and and um and I'll be honest, there had been negative experiences in that area for me at other churches before. Sure. And you know, these are like my these are my brothers, you know, and some of them I kind of would view as like my children, even though some of them were older than me. Sure. But they're caring for them. But yeah, they're they're they these are my guys, you know. So the way that people treat them is really important to me. So it was that reality, like, okay, I you know, and I I started seeing some of these connections. I started seeing the way that they would would treat some of them, and um, and then the staff and elders wanted to get to know me once they found out that I was uh one of their pastors. Um, so that kind of helped start start some relationships for me there. And and we just never left. Yeah. We felt we felt the our two boxes were checked. You know, we felt like there were solid biblical teaching and there was a a a community. It took us a little while to get into the community, feel it's a tight part of a community. It's tight knit. That first year, I'll be honest, there was some challenges there, but um, but over time, yeah, we we felt okay, we felt connected and we felt like it was home.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:27

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:28

And each church was was getting smaller, minus the the plant was small, sure. But we we both came from big church experiences mariners, yeah. That's a big church, and then we realized, oh, we really like this, you know, hundreds of people.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:41

Yeah, we like this. This is what we want.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:43

We don't have all the bells and whistles, but we have everything we need, and it, you know, we just think it's beautiful, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:49

Yeah, yeah. Um, and you've been there for you said three years now. Yeah. So you you started there just going with your guys, yeah. And then at what point did those conversations well, wait a minute. First off, had you graduated yet from seminary? Yes. When did you graduate?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:08

Yeah, pr I would say January 20, I th I think my last class was in started in January, so maybe I guess March 23, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:22

March of twenty three. I think so. Okay. Yeah. So two and a half years ago. So you had just finished up. Um so how were those conversations? Hey, do you want to be on staff? Hey, how I mean, how did those go? Was that something you were after your church experiences prior of you know Kristen being off staff, the church plant going away? Was that even of interest to you? Um and or Kristen. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:56

At the time I was I was pretty content with my position. Sure. Um and I really enjoyed it. But but it was at this point Kristen and I kind of we we started talking and and we were just like, I I think it's time for us to be all in on a church again.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:14

You know, it was because we both we're we're not just church attenders. Like that's just not that's not our heart. For a season is what we needed. Um, but we just both felt like, hey, I I think it's time. And as you know, small church, there's there's needs that, you know, there's needs that aren't aren't filled, right? And totally. And it's kind of an you know, it it's intended to be like an all hands on deck situation typically, you know, uh for small churches, but um, you know, it's not always the case. But we both felt like, hey, there's things that they could use volunteers in. Let's just do it. Yeah. Let's just do it. So we just started serving and seeing things that we felt like as you know, some people would leave and that were serving, and it felt like, okay, well, maybe we should transition into taking over some of those responsibilities, and you know, and and one thing just leads to another. Um, started getting to know the the elders more and the staff more. Um, and then uh eventually I was leading a small group, and we were, you know, we're serving in a multiple different areas, and then they asked if I wanted to teach, if I ever wanted to teach. No one had ever asked me that before, right? Like a large church, they're not just gonna ask a person who attends and say, Hey, you wanna you want to teach on a Sunday? So I I felt really honored for that, you know, and I felt honored by that. And um so I started teaching, uh, and I, you know, I there was a few people who were teaching that weren't on staff, and then I I turned into being the only person that was teaching that was not on staff. Mostly there'd be a few people who you you being one of them that would come every once in a while and and teach. Um, but I I just started getting more involved in in that sense. Um and then a year, you know, actually more than a year ago, um, our children's pastor, uh, they moved out of state. Right. Yeah, Harley, Harley and Jackson moved and the desert. Yeah. Um, so there was obviously a gap. Yeah, you know, so then I had never really considered, hey, is is that a you know, a ministry that I felt called to do that, you know, I'd served at VBS before a little bit, like running games and sure, and uh, you know, taught a few times in children's before at some of the other churches, but um actually just one church, not some churches, but I just felt this call, like, hey, there's a need, this is an opportunity. And uh, so I I just prayed and I I thought of a position uh coming in as the family pastor where I could help oversee children's, um, I could uh care and disciple dads, care for and disciple dads, and then I could help teaching from time to time as well. Um so I presented that and and they uh they agreed. They they liked it.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:20

Well they loved it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:21

Okay, yeah, they liked it.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:23

And so when did you officially come on staff?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:28

Uh it was last September.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:30

So you're coming up on a year, yeah. Wow. Okay. Yeah. So coming up on a year, smallest church you've ever been a part of. Yep. Uh what has the last year taught you? Oh man. Um because now, now correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not just a pastor there now. Yeah, you're also an elder. Yes. Which is which is which is a different role in itself as well, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:57

Actually, uh at that time, they were already trying to bring me on the elder board. Um and but I really wanted to be like a pastor there too.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:08

So uh I I decided to to present that first. So I started as the pastor, and then again we s we circle back to to becoming an elder. Yeah. Um so yes, yeah, and that so I get to see all the ins and the outs, right? Like I'm not just a staff. Yeah, I get to see all the fun com have you know all the fun conversations, uh, some of the challenging ones, you know. Um, you you get to see all of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:35

Oh, yes, you do.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:36

Yeah, you get to see all of it. And and and before I get into what happened over the last year, um, you know, I should probably share that Kristen and I became foster parents uh before I came on staff. Yeah. Before I came on staff.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:50

So that's a whole other element to this.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:52

Yeah. So so last March we became foster parents. Um, and we we had two uh we had two newborns back to back. Um uh one was definitely a preemie, the other one only a little bit early. Uh, but beautiful boys, and both we thought that we were going to adopt, um, and both ended up reconciling with their family or family members at least. Um so it was already a challenging year. Sure. It was already a challenging year, and uh, you know, like like honestly, every year of my life as a Christian, it's every year's been the hardest. Every year has been the hardest. Didn't say it was gonna be easy. No, every every year has wrecked me in many ways, um, but been beautiful in others.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:52

Um so was this idea of fostering, did you guys always want to have kids? We did. Okay. And so where what transpired there was was was was this the first step into thinking about it? Where where were you guys in the kids conversation?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:13

Yeah, I mean, we had we had been trying for a few years, um, and unfortunately, I I there's just a low chance that I can have kids. Um so I mean, if God wants us to have kids, he's gonna give us kids, right? So we're we're not we're not like closing that door. Um, but we, you know, we're we're not optimistically uh, you know, checking each month if if we're pregnant, you know, we're not quite there right now. It's more just hey, if God, if God provides us a child, uh, you know, naturally, like that's amazing. Yeah. And but there's so many kids out there that need a home and and need, you know, need parents that love them and and to care for them and raise them up in the Lord. And and uh so we felt, okay, we always knew we wanted to adopt Krishna's. Uh had years. Um, she was working with a nonprofit uh over in Kenya. So she from that experience, she knew she always wanted to adopt kids, anyways. Um, you know, we hit we had a timeline we thought we were doing, and and you know, God has a different one. Sure. So, so eventually we're like, all right, well, let's just move forward. Let's just move forward with with adoption. And and uh in California, like like all states, you have to start with fostering. Yep. And, you know, um with babies, there's a really high chance of reconciliation. Sure. And that's that's good. That's very good. That's what we want, right? That's what you want, as long as it's a healthy, healthy home, and and you know, and and you pray that the courts make the right decisions, and and that's all you can do. That's really all you can do. Uh, you know, because otherwise you're gonna drive yourself crazy. Yeah. But but yeah, so so we foster two boys. Um, first one went home, second one came in. We first one went home after three months, three weeks go by, get a call about a new a new boy, uh, and we bring him in, and you know, he's just adorable. And and Chris and I switch roles at this time um in in the sense that the first the first boy, uh Kristen was on leave from work. Okay. So she was on leave that entire time. And uh, if if he would have stayed, she would have stepped down. Uh, and then so her leave ends as as he goes home, her leave ends, she goes back to work. We get a call three weeks later, and I take leave. Okay, and I take leave, and I I stay home with the second boy, and uh, and the goal was for me to take leave and then to go back part-time, and I would be the primary caretaker. So we each had an opportunity to be the prime primary caretaker at home.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:50

That's special.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:51

And uh I can't say what's harder. They're both really challenging. Right. Both really challenging. Honestly, being at home is probably for me, it's probably more challenging. It's probably more challenging. I'll be honest. Uh, I loved it. I loved it, but it's just like, especially with the newborn, as you know, it it's just a lot. It's a lot. It is.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:09

It's a lot, yeah. It is. I mean, they they don't they don't do much. They don't do much. They sleep, they poop, and they they they need to eat. Yeah. And they cry for all of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:22

And and both both of the boys were were less than a month when we got them. We had them to about three months. So they weren't quite at that phase of development where they can interact. And you know, there's you know, we get some smiles and stuff toward the end and some cute moments, but like, but you know, you know what I'm talking about. We missed out there. Yeah, we missed out on on some of the beautiful interactions you can have with your newborns, but but that's okay. And so so I got hired right as our second boy went home, and I'm just like crushed again. I'm just like, oh, like, oh my gosh. Whoa. And and I had this plan in my head of what I thought like this next phase was gonna look like. Sure. And you know, it that wasn't it. And and that's okay. I look back and I'm like, you know, thank God for his will, and I trust his will, and that's awesome. Um, but you know, obviously we're hurt, we're hurt, of course, and yeah, so so then we go into this last year as I've been the family pastor there, and and um our children's ministry is super interesting, you know, like the the area we live in, there's a lot of families that you know uh that have different challenges, right? Like whether it's a a single parent household or uh, you know, we had a lot a lot of military families. So obviously, you know, some of these kids have moved five or six times and they're you know still in still in uh elementary school. Right, you know, and and we have kids that, you know, yeah, just kind of come come from some some hardship. And and it's it's beautiful because then God just has given me the opportunity to again take some of my experiences and and now care for the next generation.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:12

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:13

Uh, you know, kids who are kind of still in in the new new moments of life as they're still developing and and being able to be a role model and being able to share, uh, teach from time to time. I've I've great volunteers, but I'm able to pour into these kids and love on these kids that uh that need a male, godly man in their life.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:37

And it's so needed. Yeah. We even we see it all the way from just sociology all the way to scripture that the role of a strong biblical man in the home or in the life of a child and multiple, yeah. Um, I mean, I I can tell you uh my dad was not a present father, he was there but not there. Yeah, he was not a believer, and but my mom got me involved in church at a very, very young age and got me around good biblical men. Yeah. And I'm telling you, if it had not been for that, who knows what type of man I would have become.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:20

Um, I don't know. But the influence of all those men that I still have relationships with to this day, you know, we're talking, I mean, from the age of probably 12 years old to now I'm 34 and it's still going. Yeah, you know, and but that's the impact. What we keep circling back to is community. Community is without community, none of this takes place. None of it, none of it. And and the impact a community can have on anybody who's willing to get involved. Yeah, you we can't there, you have no idea the dividends. I mean, my mom getting me involved in church the way she did, and getting me around these men like she did now, even though my mom passed away in 2014, she's not able to see this, but now those men are now having an impact on my son. Yep. You know, so we're going generations now. It's not just on me. Yeah, it's it's on my son, and that's how the church is supposed to be, right? You're supposed to have this multi-generational impact this way. And we see this in scripture. I mean, Paul addresses this as older men do this, older women do this, and all because that's how the church is supposed to function. Yeah, right. Wisdom is for the seasoned and to be passed down, right? Absolutely. And so, but without the older being involved with the younger, that wisdom doesn't get passed down.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:54

And so, but again, community is what we keep coming back to.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:58

Absolutely. Um, you know, I imagine you looking back at your life being that young man at 14 years old, uh, you were lacking community. You were lacking that older man in your life to point you to where you should be. And and your life has been strung along by this need of that. Yeah. And Jesus is the one that brought you into his community, which is not perfect by any means. I mean, we've talked about the church and how there's it will one day, amen. Absolutely. Not today. The bride of Christ will be perfected.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:40

Uh, but um his community is not perfect, however, um, it is purposeful. And when the community focuses on the simplicity of the gospel and reaching people, as you talked about, there's a lot less that will go wrong. Yeah. It's when we add things to that, when things typically our sin nature gets involved and silliness and all of that gets involved. So you're coming up on a year in in your pastorate at this church. What is what is the the biggest thing now and also being an elder? How long have you been an elder there now?

SPEAKER_02 1:36:29

Probably nine months.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:30

Nine months, okay. So um just shy of a year. So what have you learned now being in the in your pastor and not only pastor, but elder?

SPEAKER_03 1:36:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:42

Uh what have you learned? What what are the takeaways from the past year?

SPEAKER_03 1:36:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:49

Um I'd I'd say grace. I'd say grace is a big one. Um, you know, all churches are are full of people. That's it. And and including myself. Yeah. And we all have flaws and we all, you know, have shortcomings. And and uh we, you know, I I as you're saying, right, I truly believe, I believe the church is is the way that the Spirit sanctifies us as we come together, right? Doing this together and and sitting under his word and and and sharpening each other and encouraging each other and and and even confessing with each other, right? And you know, and so there's so much value in that. But I I'd say, yeah, what I've learned is is just a a willingness to to care for the body the best that you can, and and realizing everyone's just gonna do their best and there's things that aren't gonna be perfect, and hopefully they'll they'll continue to progress, right? And and get better. But um but to focus on you know what what is honorable, yeah. Focus on what is true, you know, and and uh at all, you know, do whatever you can to avoid anything that can be divisive. Um, because it's no matter what size church you go to, it's it's not hard to divide. That's the enemy loves to just work his way in there and break, break apart the body. Um so yeah, it's it's just learning to to be a team, just working together, you know, and obviously that starts with the leaders, yeah. Right? It has to be modeled and and and uh applied at the level of the elders first and foremost, and then into the the you know, staff and fan, obviously families and and volunteers, and then into those uh just within the congregation. Like this needs to be shown from the top down or bottom up, however you want to look at it. Sure. Yeah. Um so just learning how to do that, yeah. Learning how to do that, I'd say, is the biggest, biggest takeaway. And and you know, in and again, it's like, okay, it's it's a a new phase of life, and and and uh the life that I lived is is further further away, right? It doesn't even feel like a part of my life anymore.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:23

Um, but then it's you know, you're moving into a new role where it's like, okay, like I'm not just working with people who who are knuckleheads like me, right? Now, like, oh, now I'm like working with young families, and I, you know, I gotta, and so there's moments where things are gonna come up and and you know, um shame's gonna pop its head, and you're gonna have to remind yourself, oh no, I've already repented of that. That's already washed, that's gone, you know, and and you just have to accept the reality, like, yes, you you are a new creation, right? And the only qualification you need is Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:00

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:01

Right? That is he is the qualifier. Um, you know, and and so any anyone who's listening, if you feel like you're at a point in life or or you've been through things that disqualify you, uh, just look at scripture. Just look at scripture. Every single person, uh, you know, obviously outside of Christ, uh, had done things that that could disqualify them. Sure. You know, and and the reality is like God gives us a new life, you know, He He puts the old to death. And we we go, our old life is put to death with Christ, and our and our new life as we're resurrected with Him. And and so anyone who feels like, hey, you might feel called into a role, uh, a calling into ministry, uh, weigh the cost, but also, you know, don't don't hold anything against you that that that you may view as a disqualifier. That's kind of one of the big takeaways I I want to give people.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:05

Well, I have one last question for you. And you just you you just hinted at it. Okay. What is the cost of ministry?

SPEAKER_02 1:41:12

Yeah, what is the cost of ministry? What is it? Um there's a lot of costs of ministry. There's a lot of cost of ministry. Um, I mean, obviously you you have to be content with what God provides you. Yeah, right. Um, you know, Orange County is pretty expensive. San Clemente's pretty expensive. Um you're not gonna have the the shiniest things that that other people have. You're not gonna keep up with the Joneses.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:40

And and that's okay. Yeah, right. But you have to be willing for that. You have to be open to that, right? Um content with what God provides. So yeah, financially it's it's a challenge. Um and then, you know, burnout's a pretty serious thing in ministry. So I'd say the cost, you have to you have to watch yourself. Like uh, we're we're foster parents again. Um we have we have four beautiful children uh at home right now. Some not not quite children. They're from nine to fifteen, so they're they're not so little. As you were talking about how formative it is by the age of 15. That was I was reflecting on that a little bit. Um, but so we're foster parents, and so we have a ministry at home, ministry at church. Uh, so it's all outpouring. It's all outpouring. Yeah. Ministry often is mostly outpouring. Sure. So, so uh it you're gonna get tired and and you need to uh know that, yeah, everything's a season. So prepare for seasons where you're gonna go beyond what what your body or your mind uh not allows, but but desires, right? And then make sure you have seasons of rest afterward, right? You need seasons of rest. You're gonna have seasons of of being stretched, and then just try and follow them up with seasons of rest. Find ways to to work in your rest, right? Uh, so you can you can um you can find rest in busyness. Um but yeah, so so finances, I'd say uh fatigue. Fatigue is one. Um you know, you're I I personally think this is sh how all Christians should feel, but I I personally feel the the more I I grow in my faith, the the more I feel confused in society. So I feel like I I'm I feel like I don't know, the world gets louder, yeah, uh, you know, sin gets more clear. Um and I I just feel like a uh pretty pretty consistent pain for the world around me. So there's emotional weight that comes with it. Yeah um yeah, and it's yeah, it's just a sacrificial living. You know, it's intended it's intended to be a sacrificial living. I think the cost is yeah, your life's just not about you. It's not about it's not about you, it's about Christ, and now it's even further further removed from you because now it's about a congregation that God has trusted entrusted you with.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:27

Um shoot, we could do a whole podcast just on that right there. Yeah, we may have to in the future.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:34

Um well Winston, thank you for coming. Uh any any anything uh one last thing that you want to mention, uh anything you want to say to those that are listening to, you know, maybe that young man that's aspiring to the role of of pastor.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:54

One last thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:55

Yeah um I'd say, I'd say go for it. Honestly, uh if you truly believe God is calling you to it, go for it. Um there's a typically a pathway that people take. Mine was not the regular pathway. If you if you've been listening, you probably realize, oh yeah, this guy kind of took a he was provided a little bit of a different path. Um, and you know, I'm very thankful for that. So there's many ways. There's many ways to to do ministry. There's many ways that ministry looks uh in vocational ministry. It's it's exciting. I love it. I really love it. So I just encourage you to step into it. And and like I said, um, you know, if you come from a challenging life like mine, uh one that you know has God has really transformed, um don't don't let that be something that disquals disqualifies you from stepping into ministry. Uh because it's it's something that God can use for his glory. Um so don't be afraid to to take on a calling that that God gives you because he is the equipper, he is the qualifier.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:10

Amen. Winston, thank you again for coming. Thank you. Great appreciate it. Um, for those that are listening, uh, take take these truths, take this experience because it's it's bathed in truth. Uh take hold of it. And um, as always, um, thank you for tuning in, and hopefully we'll see you next week.